S06.E09: The Hill

[debraran]

5 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I thought that was canon? Wasn't there something when he was enlisting and saw a doctor, and the doctor said he had heart trouble but it wasn't enough to keep him out of the service or did I make that up? I feel like Jack was always going to die of a heart attack*, it was just a question of when.

*I knew a man - a doctor, at that - who had a history of heart problems in his family so he took very good care of himself. Heart-healthy diet, very fit and athletic. He dropped dead of a heart attack after a bike ride when he was in his 50s. As another doctor who knew him said, he couldn't beat his genes. I thought it was established that Jack had similar genetic issues.

I think he said "where your mom and Miguel could stay," which could be interpreted as "stay when they visit" or "stay permanently."

I don't know how much weight Chrissy Metz has or has not lost or gained or what, but for someone that size who is losing weight the slow and steady way through lifestyle changes, it would take a while for it to show. Kate/Chrissy may well be 20, 30 pounds lighter, but it would be hard to notice at first. (I think the same would also be true for smaller amounts of weight gain.)

Jack fudged his way into the army, being Jack, a speech wasn't enough this time, he did pushups and held his breath to help hide his tachycardia. For TV it worked and he ended up screwing up his relationship with Nicky. Should have stayed home.

You can beat genes a bit if you keep on it with tests etc. The big workout guy from biggest loser I think, had a "widows heart attack" but lived having it at a gym with help nearby. He was healthy on the outside but never had his arteries checked which were blocked.

Edited March 23, 2022 by debraran

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

The fact that Toby's married to a woman who has not worked full time in years and whose main criteria for choosing a career is based on what she likes to do even if it pays poorly and is only part time; means that Toby is ALWAYS the one who is going to have to look out for the bottom line.  

I think Kate can be relaxed about money because she knows she has a brother with what is apparently an unlimited amount of money. I know Toby will never take Kevin’s money, but Kate knows she has a backup if they ever need it. Jack will always have what he needs, even if Toby isn’t the one to provide it.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Jeddah

[CdrJanny]

40 minutes ago, buttersister said:

Does Rebecca have a backup for her morbidly obese daughter? Because we never got it clear whether or not Jack's heart attack was caused by underlying heart disease triggered by smoke inhalation. 

St. Jack's lifelong heart disease is something else he forgot to mention to Rebecca.

Ya think she might have wanted to know?

[Lisa418722]

43 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

But pre-approval on mortgage loans and finding out the market value of your house is not far down the road, it's step one.  I was a loan officer in a large Credit Union and we did pre-approvals by the hundreds every spring just because people felt like going out to look.  Toby did what you do before you call a realtor so he'll know what sort of house to show them.  The heartbreak comes when people don't start the way Toby did and fall in love with a house only to have their loan disapproved.  I saw a divorce happen over that, the wife was that disappointed.

Even years ago before I bought my condo I found out how much I was pre-approved for and that helped narrow down where I was looking.  I think Toby got pre-approved first because if he didn't qualify he would never have mentioned the house to Kate. He did not take out a mortgage without Kate knowing about it. Also in this market, if Kate liked the house, they need to make an offer.  Toby wants his family back together and he was trying but Kate was digging her heels in because she doesn't want the new Toby.  

As far as Kate's job, she will be the bestest ever teacher to ever teach at the school, even without the appropriate credentials because she is a Pearson.  

[BlancheDevoreaux]

27 minutes ago, Lisa418722 said:

Even years ago before I bought my condo I found out how much I was pre-approved for and that helped narrow down where I was looking.  I think Toby got pre-approved first because if he didn't qualify he would never have mentioned the house to Kate. He did not take out a mortgage without Kate knowing about it. Also in this market, if Kate liked the house, they need to make an offer.  Toby wants his family back together and he was trying but Kate was digging her heels in because she doesn't want the new Toby.  

As far as Kate's job, she will be the bestest ever teacher to ever teach at the school, even without the appropriate credentials because she is a Pearson.  

I wonder if she can "inspirational talk" the children who are blind into being able to see...

[Cosmocrush]

1 hour ago, Jeddah said:

I think Kate can be relaxed about money because she knows she has a brother with what is apparently an unlimited amount of money. I know Toby will never take Kevin’s money, but Kate knows she has a backup if they ever need it. Jack will always have what he needs, even if Toby isn’t the one to provide it.

Good point.

[HighHopes]

7 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Yes to all of this, especially the bolded. I would have found that itinerary exhausting. She was there to test the waters with living life with Toby in SF, not simply living in SF. Those are very different things. It felt like he was trying to sell her on the city and its SUPERFUN!!! things, not what their life would be like on a day-to-day basis. Telling me neither of them have really pictured them being in SF together.

Then there as his ridiculous inclusion of the cocktail party, which sent a clear message that he couldn't even plan a weekend for Kate, a mere two and a half-days, without bringing work into it. And expecting her to go to a work event and stand around by herself with a bunch of strangers while he worked the crowd? Oh hell no.

If Toby knew about the cocktail party before Kate got to SF, he should have let her know. He could have said "hey btw that weekend I have a work thing I need at my boss's that I need to be at. Are you cool with going or do you want to come next weekend". Simple communication. But he most likely hid this cocktail party form her, and he seemed to hide it in his explanation of the plans for the weekend too. "Fun stuff, art stuff, get gussied up and go to work! And then supper".  Let Kate make the decision if she wants to spend her one of two nights at a work event with people she doesn't know instead of spending some one-on-one time with her husband. 

If Toby wanted Kate to fall in love with SF, he should have just shown her SF without plans. Go for brunch, drive around, maybe drive by the house if it was that important, but don't point it out specifically. Make it a more casual weekend. Maybe next time they will bring the kids. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by HighHopes

[marceline]

15 hours ago, jalady said:

Excellent points made by a lot of posters.  I came here to say I thought Kate’s/Chrissy’s hair looked terrible in this episode.  Shallow, I know. 😄  Carry on with your deep thoughts.

Agreed. This is where shallowness leads to unity.

I chalk a lot of stuff up to COVID production. I don't mean that just for TIU but for every show I'm watching. Something was going on here behind the scenes and I'm just going to give them a pass.

Edited March 24, 2022 by marceline

[nexxie]

10 hours ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Kate is not emotionally/mentally well. 

This sums it up perfectly. I know the writers have had their hand somewhat forced when Chrissy didn't lose the weight she agreed to lose (I remember her doing an interview back early in season 1 where she said weight loss was part of her character's journey and she was grateful for the "push" she had to lose the weight), but Kate has her own issues that no one is allowed to address without being accused of "body shaming." Kate's fat. Kate has an unhealthy relationship with food not unlike Jack and Kevin had unhealthy relationships with alcohol. They were expected to get help. Randall was expected to get help for his anxiety. All of that happened. Anytime Kate starts to get help, I feel like they just drop it. Her speech yesterday about liking Toby before when he was unhealthy and trying to cover for how physically and emotionally unhealthy he was speaks volumes - but I have no confidence the writers actually address that problem. Kate will be right and Toby will be wrong.

 

Wow, I didn’t know that weight loss was supposed to be part of Kate’s journey - the writers must’ve had to reimagine her story, but it doesn’t really work.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

I wonder if she can "inspirational talk" the children who are blind into being able to see...

Well, Jack Pearson V 1.0 would have been able to so there’s hope her son will cure all the other children I suppose.

I think part of my issue with Kate is that she doesn’t want to move and she wants Toby around more, but she hasn’t presented any practical solutions for that to happen. He couldn’t get a job there to support them, so he took a job elsewhere. She didn’t want to move. But her job was not nearly enough to support them. We never saw her brainstorming other ways to make her solution of staying out feasible- her going back to work full time, scaling back to a small apartment, etc. She wanted it to work out just because she wanted it to work out, but that is not realistic. One of the most expensive cities on the planet is not sustainable on one part time income. And Toby flying 4 times a week and barely seeing his kids is also not sustainable. So what is her sustainable, realistic plan?

[Trillian]

2 hours ago, Lisa418722 said:

As far as Kate's job, she will be the bestest ever teacher to ever teach at the school, even without the appropriate credentials because she is a Pearson.  

Can you imagine the brochures for this school? “Our staff consists of random people off the street, with no teaching credentials or formal training or experience in special needs students.  Tuition starts at … “

[Cosmocrush]

10 minutes ago, deaja said:

So what is her sustainable, realistic plan?

They had a plan.  Toby told her the SF job was temporary and as soon as he could find a job (he didn't specify a job that satisfies him) he will be back.   Toby's plan changed but he never clued Kate in on that fact; he just rejected the L.A. job offer that had to be substantial or his boss wouldn't have known about it.  Maybe Toby even used the offer to get more money out of the current gig?  Which is fine but he kept his wife in the dark about it.  That is not okay. 

Either way, I don't think Kate knew she was supposed to think of another plan because she thought the first plan was still the plan.  (That's a lot of plans, but hopefully makes sense.)   She thought she was going to SF to re-connect with her husband.  He ambushed her with non-negotiable decision to stay in SF and bring the fam up there. 

But it seems like she came up with her own plan at the end - one that doesn't include being married to Toby.  We know Kate will be okay. 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Cosmocrush

[MBayGal]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

But then, she finds out Toby has lied to her by omission once again with the job he turned down in LA.  Something he felt comfortable talking to his new boss about, but not her.  

Perhaps letting his boss know another company offered him a job was a tactic to get a salary bump.  Considering how much the current boss values him, it probably did result in an increase.  But the writers can't show that or it would negate their #TeamPrincessKate narrative. 

[Johnny Dollar]

What qualifications does Kate have to be a full time teacher at a school for the blind?  Where did she get her degree in specialized education from?  Where did she learn how to prepare lesson plans, especially for blind children? In which state does she have a teaching license? Oh wait. She’s a Pearson and all Pearsons are perfect. Just ask Toby. And Beth. And Sophie. And Madison.

BTW, what was Kate doing from her late teens to the time the show started? She complained that she saw nothing in her future, yet apparently did nothing to change it. She barely had a life before Toby came along, and even him trying to better himself wasn’t good enough for her. I’m glad this show is ending because I can’t take much more of this family. 

[chocolatine]

I don't think there was anything wrong with Toby "dragging" Kate to his boss's cocktail party. He wanted her to know more about his life in SF and have her meet the people with whom he spends a lot of his time. Maybe he was even hoping that Kate would be happy and proud to see how much he's valued by his boss and coworkers - not an unreasonable thing to expect from one's spouse, IMO. And he made dinner reservations for just the two of them, so he never meant for them to spend the entire evening at the party.

Where the writing went really off track was the boss knowing about Toby turning down the LA job offer. The only time you mention a competing offer to your current employer is if the offer comes with a higher salary and you want the current employer to match it. And even that is a risky move, because your employer may question your commitment and encourage you to take the offer. If the other offer has a much lower compensation, as Toby implied, there is no good reason to tell your current employer about it at all, since they may start thinking that they're overpaying you.

Another writing goof was Toby getting on a call with someone in Tokyo late on a Friday night. That's Saturday morning in Japan, and the Japanese don't usually work on weekends. Then he continued doing calls on Saturday during the day, when it was already late night in Japan. I know Chrissy co-wrote this episode, and it's obvious that neither she nor any other writers did any research or fact-checking.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

 

What qualifications does Kate have to be a full time teacher at a school for the blind?  Where did she get her degree in specialized education from?  Where did she learn how to prepare lesson plans, especially for blind children? In which state does she have a teaching license? Oh wait. She’s a Pearson and all Pearsons are perfect. Just ask Toby. And Beth. And Sophie. And Madison

 

To be fair, Kevin has been an overgrown child most of this season and she worked for him for years. ;) 

[LoveLeigh]

All those kids are great. The kid who plays young Kevin is amazing. He manages to physically stay in character even when he is not speaking. The only actor I dislike is the actor who plays college age Kevin. He looks like he is a pompous ass in real life. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by LoveLeigh

[Cosmocrush]

3 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

All those kids are great. The kid who plays young Kevin is amazing. He manages to physically stay in character even when he is not speaking. The only actor I dislike is the actor who plays college age Kevin. He looks like he is a pompous ass in real life. 

Agreed!  And I'll add that  little kid Kate and teenage Kate look exactly like they could be grownup Kate.

I liked this Kate-centric episode.  Little Kate telling Jack she's never going to let go... why should she?  (So telling) Teenage Kate being unable to envision her future after Jack's death.   Present day Rebecca telling her to be fearless and take a risks....  All led to Kate deciding she finally liked her life and didn't really need Toby to be happy.  She took the risk despite the fears.  I liked it. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Cosmocrush

[Dowel Jones]

I'm still puzzling over what kind of public/community pool has a gate that locks people in.  If someone leaves early, does staff have to run over and unlock the gate each time?

[CountryGirl]

Having rewatched last night’s episode a little while ago, it is really rubbing me the wrong way about Toby’s dismissal of Jack’s routine as something that could be essentially lifted and shifted. I have a nephew with special needs and I helped to raise him, even moving in with him and his mother for several years after my late brother’s death. The “eh, he’ll adjust attitude.” Having dealt with advocating constantly for my nephew’s needs, including receiving evaluations, getting services he was entitled to, doing my best, as did his mom, to to help him thrive and develop, and Kate has done the lion’s share from the beginning as remember, it took Toby quite some time to accept Jack’s condition so she had to step in, I would not have been amused to hear someone say it was no big deal to upheave nephew’s routine. 

What guarantee is there that Jack could automatically get the same types of services or school set up he has now and this is not to suggest there aren’t similar things in SF but immediately? That part is very much in doubt right now and Jack is still very young but early intervention and consistent follow-through is so key to a special need’s child’s success later in life. I have a close friend where her husband  is in the military and they have a special needs child and have witnessed their struggles to get services when he is reassigned and they have to move. 

As an aside, my previous comment about state assistance is based on personal experience. I am very well aware it is not a windfall, but it did offset a bit of the expenses in my nephew’s case and that of my friend’s and certainly every little bit helps. 

[CountryGirl]

I also don’t see the phone call to Philip as her being “you did this, so now I get to do it, too” but her getting her ducks in a row by seeking full-time employment when she splits from him. I see it as she feels she cannot trust him at this point, so she is doing what she needs to do to take care of herself on her own. 

[LexieLily]

12 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I also don’t see the phone call to Philip as her being “you did this, so now I get to do it, too” but her getting her ducks in a row by seeking full-time employment when she splits from him. 

That does set up a question, though, who would get custody of Jack and Haley in a divorce? We know Kate will get them because she is the primary parent right now, but Toby can provide for them monetarily in a way that Kate can't right now. Not that there is anything wrong with only working a part-time, but it's the money from Toby's San Fran job that subsidizes the family home and the kids, Jack's care, etc.

Also: the San Francisco apartment, is this where we see Toby in the deathbed-cabin forward flash?

Edited March 24, 2022 by LexieLily

[CountryGirl]

It’s a good question. I think it would be shared custody. Toby having full-time employment to Kate’s part-time (for the moment) doesn’t equate to him getting full custody. Kate could argue that larger income or not, she’s in a position to spend more time with the kids. 

I don’t know if we know where Toby is living in 2030. Did any eagled-eyed posters see any similarities to that bedroom with Toby’s present-day bedroom? 

[ams1001]

7 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

Also: the San Francisco apartment, is this where we see Toby in the deathbed-cabin forward flash?

I thought that looked like a hotel room (especially since the cabin is in PA). Unless Toby becomes a minimalist in the future...

[LexieLily]

6 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

It’s a good question. I think it would be shared custody. Toby having full-time employment to Kate’s part-time (for the moment) doesn’t equate to him getting full custody. Kate could argue that larger income or not, she’s in a position to spend more time with the kids. 

Shared custody gets them back to where they started with the real-world logistical problems, multiplied by two young children, one special needs, having to travel back and forth every two weeks. LA-to-SF is, what, an hour and a half flight?

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, Johnny Dollar said:

BTW, what was Kate doing from her late teens to the time the show started? She complained that she saw nothing in her future, yet apparently did nothing to change it.

She waited tables at the diner she mentioned this episode for at least 10 years (she was working there in the episode where the siblings were in their late 20s) and then Kevin’s career took off and he hired her as his assistant. She was, for the most part, someone life happened TO, rather than forging her own path (and she and Kevin are codependent).

[CountryGirl]

25 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

Shared custody gets them back to where they started with the real-world logistical problems, multiplied by two young children, one special needs, having to travel back and forth every two weeks. LA-to-SF is, what, an hour and a half flight?

I should have said shared parenting but it is likely only one will get primary physical custody in their current setup. And the court could lean in Kate’s favor given she has been their primary caretaker for months (including leading up to the divorce we anticipate is coming) and has the support structure with family and other caretakers familiar with the kids well-established. But since this isn’t the speculation thread, I’ll take any other thoughts there. 

[MBayGal]

50 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

That does set up a question, though, who would get custody of Jack and Haley in a divorce? We know Kate will get them because she is the primary parent right now, but Toby can provide for them monetarily in a way that Kate can't right now. Not that there is anything wrong with only working a part-time, but it's the money from Toby's San Fran job that subsidizes the family home and the kids, Jack's care, etc.

Of course PhillipMeanJerk will have a huge trust fund and be as wealthy as Kevin and provide Kate and the kids with a life of luxury.  Nevertheless, Toby will be. saddled with maximum child support payments and double the usual amount of alimony because #She'sAPearson!

Edited March 24, 2022 by MBayGal

[LexieLily]

5 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

Of course PhillipMeanJerk will have a huge trust fund and be as wealthy as Kevin and provide Kate and the kids with a life of luxury.  Nevertheless, Toby will be. saddled with maximum child support payments and double the usual amount of alimony because #She'sAPearson#.

Phillip Mean Jerk is still funny, but does it bother anyone else that this is the man Kate is marrying in four years, we've got eight/nine episodes until the series ends, and the show still hasn't thought to tell us his last name?

Edited March 24, 2022 by LexieLily

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Having rewatched last night’s episode a little while ago, it is really rubbing me the wrong way about Toby’s dismissal of Jack’s routine as something that could be essentially lifted and shifted.

A couple of seasons ago, when Kate and Toby brought baby Jack home after his long hospital stay, Kate hired a specialist to make their house safe for Jack. But when the woman arrived and started doing her job, Kate stopped her after five minutes with a Pearson speech about wanting Jack to live a life without limitations. So Kate was the one who set the precedent of dismissing any kind of special treatment for Jack.

If Kate doesn't want to leave her life in LA, she should be honest about it and not use Jack's routine as an excuse. She is someone who hates pushing herself of her comfort zone (as all the flashbacks in this episode have shown), and her wishes are just as valid as Toby's wishes for self-improvement and an exciting career. She doesn't get to claim the moral high ground by using her son's condition, and the show doesn't get to pretend that this is a huge moment of growth and self-realization for her. This is just two people realizing that their individual goals and dreams aren't compatible anymore.

ETA:

7 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

Phillip Mean Jerk is still funny, but does it bother anyone else that this is the man Kate is marrying in four years, we've got eight/nine episodes until the series ends, and the show still hasn't thought to tell us his last name?

We'll learn his last name during their wedding ceremony at the latest. I also have a feeling the show will have Kate keep "Philip Mean Jerk" as his name in her phone. That was already done on Catastrophe, with Rob keeping Sharon's name as "Sharon London Sex" in his phone, and it was funny every time his phone lit up with an incoming call from her. Since this show's writers aren't known for originality, I bet they stole that joke from Catastrophe. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by chocolatine

[TOL]

13 hours ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Kate is not emotionally/mentally well. 

This sums it up perfectly. I know the writers have had their hand somewhat forced when Chrissy didn't lose the weight she agreed to lose (I remember her doing an interview back early in season 1 where she said weight loss was part of her character's journey and she was grateful for the "push" she had to lose the weight), but Kate has her own issues that no one is allowed to address without being accused of "body shaming." Kate's fat. Kate has an unhealthy relationship with food not unlike Jack and Kevin had unhealthy relationships with alcohol. They were expected to get help. Randall was expected to get help for his anxiety. All of that happened. Anytime Kate starts to get help, I feel like they just drop it. Her speech yesterday about liking Toby before when he was unhealthy and trying to cover for how physically and emotionally unhealthy he was speaks volumes - but I have no confidence the writers actually address that problem. Kate will be right and Toby will be wrong.

 

Wow,  I could have written this (and wish I did as well as you did).   

[30 Helens]

Let’s face it, this couple was doomed the minute they gave themselves that dumb “Katoby” nickname. If you must do a couple name (and please don’t), at least streamline it. Koby or Tate. Pick one.

With regards to who’s right, of course neither is. Just like most real world marriage fights. Both made false assumptions about the other, and made plans based on those assumptions. Toby thought Kate would be thrilled to join his new life, so went full steam ahead based on that. Kate thought Toby actually preferred their former life, and so never considered making a change. This is where talking comes in handy.

Personally, I think Kate’s a little nuts for not wanting to live in SF. That apartment was gorgeous. I’ll marry Toby if that means I can move there. (I think my husband would be ok with that, if he can come too.)

One thing I did not understand: Shouldn’t it be harder to get into a locked pool area than out of it? Every TV show I’ve seen that uses that “oops, the door prop moved” trope sets up a scenario where the door only locks from one side, like a fire escape or roof access. So how the hell did they get into the pool??

 

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, LexieLily said:

LA-to-SF is, what, an hour and a half flight?

That's about accurate, depending on time of day, too.  Then include airport time  and commute time (SFO, for those who don't know, is quite a ways south of San Francisco) and it gets to be a long day.  On the plus side, when I googled this, the fares were as low as $44 one way.  Jeez, you can't even drive to the airport for that.

[buttersister]

Thanks all for the reminders about Jack's heart condition. Family history of heart disease or at the very least, father's cause of death in Kate's med records. Does Kate not have a physician? Or every time he/she raises the issue of Kate's morbid obesity, does doc gets a Pearson Earful? 

 

[Quiet1]

Toby is going to be happy living in SF and Kate is going to be happy living in LA but the kids are going to be shuffled back and forth. That has to be more disruptive to Jack (and Hailey) than having the family together in one place. Kate is really going to be fine with only seeing her kids part time? It would be interesting if Kate loses custody because of the big green egg incident being her fault. I know the show would never do that. 

It's too bad the show is breaking them up like this. Toby and Kate were both excited to be spending the weekend together and still attracted to each other. They could make it work.

[CrystalBlue]

On 3/22/2022 at 7:06 PM, Straycat80 said:

I will give Kate mad credit for walking up San Fran hill. I’ve done it and thought my heart and lungs were going to explode! 

Yes!  But what she does next is a pivotal moment.  I just watched this ep finally and I haven't read anything else here yet, so bear with me.

My comment at the end of her phone call on The Hill was:  "The Big Green Egg my ass!"  It was already in the cards because Kate was unhappy.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

13 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Their plan was for Toby to take the job in SF but continue to look for work in LA.  This job was supposed to be half remote work so Toby could stay in LA part time.  

In the real world post-height-of-the-pandemic, Toby would be working remotely. Phone calls to Japan are obviously not in person, and nowadays, meetings aren't either.

[himela]

I'm wondering, what would people say if Randall was in Toby's place and he was the one behaving like this to Beth? Would people not be mad at Randall and try to encourage Beth not to take his shit and take her life in her own hands?

I think some people just dislike Kate because they have an idea in their head that her being that fat and actually not skilled with anything would mean she doesn't get to have a fit, wealthy husband who loves her that much and is willing to work long hours to keep her happy. I think some poster even said it earlier, such obese women don't get to have a fit, handsome husband at home or something.

The only thing I find unrealistic with Kate is her getting pregnant.

 

[circumvent]

I am late here and there are too many comments, so I didn't read them all. I don't know why we have to be on team Toby or team Kate. I might be in the minority but, with all its flaws, I still think the show is well written and the characters are multi-dimensional enough. In the balance of things, it is still a positive for me.

I can list the thinks Toby did that were weird, absurd, etc, the same for Kate. But they were trying to work on things, and they failed. That happens. I liked how the episode was written, with adult Kate facing the metaphorical obstacle of the moment - the hill - and making a decision that seems to indicate she now has a new vision for her future. As opposed to child Kate, who couldn't let go of dad, teen Kate who couldn't even try to climb the fence once more and had no vision of her future, adult Kate understood that she lost the one future she had imagined for herself - with Toby and the kids, a family - but didn't give up on the metaphorical challenge and was able to imagine a new one - a promotion (?) on her job.

I liked that. It was adult, it was real, it was about growth and pain, but it wasn't depressing. 

[debraran]

I do think the money Kevin has and probably Phillip is a convenient safety blanket because Kate knows Kevin has offered and would help in a heartbeat. Toby also will support his children and Kate doesn't have to live with him to get it of course. Why stay with him when she can live on a small salary and still be ok. Most people in the "real" world would have a harder time. His kids will see Philip more but again those are choices we make. Kevin was never married or even dating Madison so his case is different but hopefully even if the one preview of future looks bleak, Toby is happy. No reason he can't find his happy spot too but he did have depression and that is unrelenting at times.

To the above post, I agree, it's hard to see Kate as anything but a large woman and I know from people in my own family, you are invisible larger. People never ask about them as often, they are shocked when spouse/girl/boyfriend is handsome/pretty, it's not a kind world. BUT this show made it all about Kate's weight from day one. I think we got a break from baby years, but she had issues with girls at pool, she had grandma commenting on it, there was unhealthy food issues (although everyone should eat healthy) it was used for her insecurity, it was used for so many things. They used her weight as an excuse after Jack died but 20 years later, that was lame. The real root of it was never addressed because they couldn't control the actress's weight (which is good but made change difficult) with Toby, fat was fake, so easier. They had to show the improbable pregnancy as difficult but then the adoption was easy too and sadly they are divorcing which I'm sure bio mom would find sad too.  They ignore the weight when they want too but used it constantly during the show. How can you not think about it when it's the theme of her life? They wont bring up the trouble she might have being heavy and keeping up with toddlers but they will demonize Toby again with the upcoming grill incident. I just hate the unevenness of the it. I know Jack Jr. is ok but I don't want to see that scene. God forbid they ever show Kate being an imperfect parent too like everyone else.

Kate  deserves to be happy, she deserves a good story, there is time to improve but mostly this show made her a victim, made her weight up and center, made her weak, but not a good reason for it.

Edited March 24, 2022 by debraran

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, Cosmocrush said:

And I'll add that  little kid Kate and teenage Kate look exactly like they could be grownup Kate.

The Emmy for casting should become the the "This is Us" award. There was a moment this episode when they cut from angry little Kate at the pool to angry present-day Kate and the two looked exactly alike.

 

1 hour ago, circumvent said:

I am late here and there are too many comments, so I didn't read them all. I don't know why we have to be on team Toby or team Kate. I might be in the minority but, with all its flaws, I still think the show is well written and the characters are multi-dimensional enough. In the balance of things, it is still a positive for me.

I agree.  The character of Kate has been the most interesting one for me since the first episode and even though I'm on Toby's side at this moment, I still like the way she's written. When the show results in long arguments like this, that to me is good adult writing.  I loved @CountryGirl's long, standing ovation post even though I'm on the other side! 

 

7 hours ago, Empress1 said:

She waited tables at the diner she mentioned this episode for at least 10 years

Can you imagine?  The worlds most sullen waitress.

[nexxie]

Great line from Toby: You fell in love with a coping mechanism.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

9 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

All those kids are great. The kid who plays young Kevin is amazing. He manages to physically stay in character even when he is not speaking. The only actor I dislike is the actor who plays college age Kevin. He looks like he is a pompous ass in real life. 

This is why I think college-age Kevin is perfectly cast. Kevin is supposed to be a pompous ass at 20 and this actor has those mannerisms down. I just wish he would shower and wash his hair. He looks dirty. In all seriousness, casting has been one of the best parts of this show. They nailed the younger actors.

9 hours ago, Cosmocrush said:

Agreed!  And I'll add that  little kid Kate and teenage Kate look exactly like they could be grownup Kate.

I liked this Kate-centric episode.  Little Kate telling Jack she's never going to let go... why should she?  (So telling) Teenage Kate being unable to envision her future after Jack's death.   Present day Rebecca telling her to be fearless and take a risks....  All led to Kate deciding she finally liked her life and didn't really need Toby to be happy.  She took the risk despite the fears.  I liked it. 

I am clearly in the minority on this opinion, but I'm not all good with Kate just deciding she doesn't need Toby to be happy and she can leave. It's important for her to learn to be happy on her own and not rely on someone else for that happiness, but you don't just pack your bags and ditch your marriage because you are there. You made a commitment. You brought two young people into the relationship. You are not in a dangerous situation, He used to be your favorite person in the world but you stopped communicating. Before blowing up your life and having two young children be a casualty, try and make your marriage work.

[Empress1]

13 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

In all seriousness, casting has been one of the best parts of this show. They nailed the younger actors.

The older ones too. If you told me Future Tess and Teenage Tess were mother and daughter, I’d believe you. Casting has been excellent.

[nexxie]

Toby’s concerns about finances were valid and reality based - that little L.A. bungalow would cost way over a million today and, even when they purchased it, would have cost far too much for them. Not to mention the additional cost of the San Fran apt. There’s no way Kate could pay for her place alone - unless there was insurance money after Jack’s death. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by nexxie

[CountryGirl]

3 hours ago, circumvent said:

I liked that. It was adult, it was real, it was about growth and pain, but it wasn't depressing. 

My annoyances with Toby notwithstanding, this was my biggest takeaway. Both of them have grown as individuals, particularly in the time spent apart. But where many couples would also grow together, their growth came at a cost - each other.

It is sad because I do think there is love still there and there are two beautiful children involved, but having experienced both sides of the coin, it is far better for kids to grow up in a broken home with two happy, healthy parents, than living in one with parents who cannot stand one another but are staying together "for the kids."

[ams1001]

6 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

My comment at the end of her phone call on The Hill was:  "The Big Green Egg my ass!"  It was already in the cards because Kate was unhappy.

Yeah, but whatever happens, all little Jack is going to know is he got hurt and his parents fought over it (I assume) and they broke up after that.

[Ohiopirate02]

7 hours ago, buttersister said:

Thanks all for the reminders about Jack's heart condition. Family history of heart disease or at the very least, father's cause of death in Kate's med records. Does Kate not have a physician? Or every time he/she raises the issue of Kate's morbid obesity, does doc gets a Pearson Earful? 

 

Kate due to her job history would have spent most of her adult life without a primary care physician.  She went from waitress to Kevin's assistant before the ACA.  She would have gone to either Planned Parenthood or an urgent care to receive whatever acute healthcare she needed.  As Kevin's assistant, he would have paid for any and all healthcare Kate needed during that time, but I doubt she was getting annual checkups.  Kate really would not have had health insurance until she married Toby.  She would also have a few bad experiences under her belt where doctors and nurses have ignored her acute health concerns due to her weight.  Seriously, if you do the research you will find hundreds of stories of fat people who have had bad healthcare due to the medical professionals only seeing the weight up to and including dying of cancer because the doctor refused to run any tests because the patient was fat.  I believe Roxane Gay writes about this when she broke her ankle.  Some doctors deserve a Pearson earful.  

[Empress1]

16 minutes ago, nexxie said:

Toby’s concerns about finances were valid and reality based - that little L.A. bungalow would cost way over a million today and, even when they purchased it, would have cost far too much for them. Not to mention the additional cost of the San Fran apt. There’s no way Kate could pay for her place alone - unless there was insurance money after Jack’s death. 

In a previous episode, Rebecca said the life insurance was running out so she had to get a job (that was when Randall went all Pearson on her would-be boss and convinced him to hire her). I doubt the kids are dealing with an inheritance at all. Rebecca would almost definitely have been the sole beneficiary of the life insurance as a SAHM; she’d need it to care for the kids. Maybe they’d get social security survivor benefits but I think those stop when a child turns 18. IMO there’s no reason to believe that Kate is not financially dependent on Toby.

[CdrJanny]

1 hour ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

I am clearly in the minority on this opinion, but I'm not all good with Kate just deciding she doesn't need Toby to be happy and she can leave. It's important for her to learn to be happy on her own and not rely on someone else for that happiness, but you don't just pack your bags and ditch your marriage because you are there. You made a commitment. You brought two young people into the relationship. You are not in a dangerous situation, He used to be your favorite person in the world but you stopped communicating. Before blowing up your life and having two young children be a casualty, try and make your marriage work.

This.