S01.E06: So This Is Christmas?

[swanpride]

I guess it was mostly about finding information about Clint's family? I can imagine that Laura is officially dead. A retirement watch would ruin the illusion.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

58 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Count me in as loving the elevator scene.
 

Rewatching, I caught that Yelena called Kate a bitch in Russian, the same way she did in BW when Natasha turned out to have the keys to her motorbike for their escape. I really like how Kate tries to be all cool when they're interacting, even when she slapped her, which was pretty clearly an instinct and not anything she would have done otherwise. "What was that?" "I...don't know." Delightful.

 

8 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I don't have any explanation for why the Tracksuits wanted her old retirement watch, though!

When Clint was on the phone with Laura in the last episode, he seemed worried that the discovery of the watch meant it could be used to track them down. He knew that Maya had already done some checking on his family, and he tells his wife that it wouldn't be long before Fisk was involved. "The kids and I are so far away." "Not far enough. Never far enough."

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, readster said:

Yes, he was just blinded for a few years, it was right out of the comics. I know the MCU goes different ways with things, but they pretty much kept Maya's back story the same. 

Yep, this was a very canonical Kingpin. Even his outfit was straight from the comics. 

Still that VDO voice that I love, though. LOL. And the way he looks at people. I'm guessing they can't touch the actual backstory of the Netflix version, but I don't necessarily need it for Kingpin - I wanted to keep VDO's performance and take on the character.

[FnkyChkn34]

I agree with everyone that says that this is their favorite Marvel Disney+ series!  WandaVision was good, but this one was better.  

I'll try not to repeat what's already been said, but I love the tie-in that Laura Barton isn't just a housewife in the middle of nowhere.  I think it's Ultron where we first see her (whichever movie it is, doesn't matter) and Clint tells the others that Fury helped him set "this" up.  Fury would have an interest in keeping a former SHIELD agent safe too, so it makes sense.

But if the watch was a retirement gift, why was it at the Avengers compound to be stolen and put in the auction?  Clint says that she needs to keep better track of her stuff, but I was thinking that maybe it was hers from when she was an active agent and it's clearly not just an ordinary watch, but has tons of secrets imbedded in it?  

Also, where was Julia Louis-Dreyfus?  Is it just me, or did this show retcon the end-credits scene in Black Widow?

[Cristofle]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Also, where was Julia Louis-Dreyfus?  Is it just me, or did this show retcon the end-credits scene in Black Widow?

I was assuming in that moment she was kind of the go-between? Eleanor probably didn't hire her specifically, she hired a Black Widow, and JLD gave the job to Yelena, possibly assuming Yelena would go the extra mile if she was led to believe Natasha's death was Clint's fault. 

[Dandesun]

Kate Bishop has got GUTS. She went up against Yelena AND Kingpin in the same hour and lived to tell the tale.

Did I cry when Clint was telling Yelena about Natasha? Yes. A lot. Maybe you can blame moonsickness for some of it but, honestly, that got me good. I think the relationship between Clint and Nat was told very well throughout the MCU even if it wasn't the focus. Hell, in the first Avengers movie the thing that changed everything for Nat while she was working was Coulson just saying 'Barton's been compromised.' Their connection has been touched on every time and I really loved seeing Yelena see that Nat loved and trusted Clint so much that she told him all about her little sister.

"Is this what heroes do? Arrest their mothers on Christmas?" Uh, yeah, Mom... if you're a criminal. Kate just looking at her while Eleanor goes on about how Kate can't cut it in 'the real world' because there are consequences while Kate is in the middle of dealing with all of those consequences. While she got beat up by the Kingpin to help her mother... cripes Eleanor, way to miss the fucking point.

Armond VII and Jack was a ridiculous scene that I loved way way way too much. "Mom told me I would get your wine collection." "You're too young to appreciate my wine." "I won't always be." "Remember when you peed your pants in the Hamptons? I do. Everyone does." Holy crap. Holy crap. That was just too fucking ridiculous but it's just one of those things that flesh out this weird world they're on.

I, too, loved the nod to the Rockefeller owl. And the call back to the Imagine Dragons guy and that they went to see Maroon 5 and Kate was legit happy for him but still had to keep him from shooting her.

No way is Kingpin dead. He'll be back. Maya will be dealing with him and we better BETTER get Matt Murdock in there because I want my Hell's Kitchen street fighter back goddammit!!

The long tracking shot of Kate and Yelena's struggle through the building... I love them. I am happy to see that a Black Widow and a Hawkeye will continue in some form.

Clint bringing Kate and Lucky home was the absolute topper. There was just no way he was leaving her alone at Christmas.

Laura being Agent 19. I think I will agree with others that she had the Mockingbird title and retired because I also agree that AoS' Bobbi Morse was perfect. I can happily live with Clint and Laura/Mockingbird winding up together while this universe's Bobbi went on a different romantic path. Plus, Lord, she kicked ass.

And then we got the whole 'I Can Do This All Day' song.

 

Well done, Hawkeye fam. Well done.

[Minneapple]

That finale was great and Hawkeye is officially my favorite of the Disney+ shows. They managed to strike just the right balance between cheesy comedy, action, emotional scenes (Kate and her mom, Yelena and Clint). And I loved the Tracksuits and the LARPers. Were they over the top? Sure, but they were also humanized, and it was great that the LARPers became an actual part of the story rather than just being a running nerd joke or a throwaway bit.

I may have awwed a bit when Clint brought Kate and Lucky home for Christmas. Loved that Laura gave her a hug right away and welcomed her to the family. It would be great to see Laura in future projects as the show implied her to be a SHIELD agent (Agent 19, I guess). That's the kind of open-ended thread I can get behind.

My only gripe is that if Vincent D'onofrio is dead, holy crap what a waste to hype up his return only to have him killed in one episode.

This show was notably a more heartfelt eulogy for Natasha than the Black Widow movie was.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Minneapple

[Spartan Girl]

28 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

 

Laura being Agent 19. I think I will agree with others that she had the Mockingbird title and retired because I also agree that AoS' Bobbi Morse was perfect. I can happily live with Clint and Laura/Mockingbird winding up together while this universe's Bobbi went on a different romantic path. Plus, Lord, she kicked ass.

I hope that’s the case because I’m really sick of the MCU apparently thinking all the Marvel female characters are interchangeable.

[FnkyChkn34]

26 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I was assuming in that moment she was kind of the go-between? Eleanor probably didn't hire her specifically, she hired a Black Widow, and JLD gave the job to Yelena, possibly assuming Yelena would go the extra mile if she was led to believe Natasha's death was Clint's fault. 

Actually, upon further thought, why would Eleanor want to hire anyone to kill Clint Barton?  What does she have against him?  JLD's character (sorry, forgot her name) gave Yelena the information thinking that Clint killed Natasha and so Yelena could get revenge.  Did anyone actually hire her??  Kate said it was an assignment and Yelena never corrected her... I think maybe a bunch of us just jumped to that conclusion?  Not sure, I'm confused now.  

I was planning to rewatch the whole series so I could see every episode in a row and catch what I missed, and I think I'll start with Black Widow first.  

[tennisgurl]

Oh Marvel, you know exactly how to give the people what they want for the holidays. Rogers looks ridiculously cheesy and I want to watch the whole thing several times. I thought this was a great finale, it really stuck the landing. Its hard to figure out how it stacks up to every other Disney+ show, they all have really different vibes, but I really like how relatively small scale it was and how consistent it was. Every episode was excellent and it was happy to just tell a fun holiday story with action, emotion, and humor. I spent this whole show wanting Kate to join Clint for Christmas, and to see more of the Avengers musical, and I got both wishes. Every episode was excellent and they absolutely nailed the ending.

I am so glad that we got more of Kate and Yelena, I cant wait for them to team up in the future, their banter is just so good. "Stop making me like you!" Its ok Kate, its really hard not to like Yelena, even when she's trying to kill your mentor. I knew that Yelena would stand down when Clint explained things, I love that they actually managed to bond a bit about how much they both miss Natasha, and that her death has been such a big part of the show. She and Clint meant so much to her, ever since the first Avengers they have been almost a package deal, so its great that he managed to connect with someone else who loves her. Before those feels though, we got a lot of awesome fights with Yelena, both the more funny fight between Kate and Yelena and the serious, emotionally charged one between Clint and Yelena. I cant wait to see her again, she's an absolute treasure. 

We find out that Eleanor got sucked into working for the Kingpin to cover his husbands debts, and while that might make her more sympathetic, and she clearly does really love Kate, she did still do a lot of really bad things, and even tried to guilt trip Kate for calling the cops on her. "Arresting your mom on Christmas Kate? And all I did was work with a known criminal, put a hit on your mentor, murdered a guy, and set up my fiancé for the murder!" Poor Kate, her only family is going to jail, but now she has the Bartons and Pizza Dog at least at least. 

Its too bad that Kazi had to die, I liked him and his friendship with Maya. Now Maya can go off to her spin-off show, and while she isn't my favorite part of the show, I am interested in seeing where she goes from here. Yeah, no way is Fisk really dead, we never actually saw him get shot and we already saw him shrug off an arrow to the chest and getting hit with a car like its nothing, I am guessing this is a fake out so that he can be dramatically revealed later. No way do they bring the Kingpin back just to kill him off right away. 

I love that the goon that Kate gave some romantic advice to thanked her for the advice, and how genuinely happy she was to hear that things were going between with him and his girlfriend. Seriously, how can I stay mad at these guys?

I am surprised that Jack actually did turn out to be a decent guy who does seem to care about Kate, if also a bit smarmy and weird, he even jumped in to help Kate with the tracksuits. Going to a fancy Christmas party with a sword, right after being released from jail really is a weird flex, but it ended up working out. He might even join the LARPers, the true heroes of the show. 

Awww a cameo from the Rockefeller owl! 

A lot of really nice moments between Clint and Kate, but my favorite was probably Kate telling Clint how much he inspired her after she saw him during the Battle of New York and his little smile, you can really feel how much that meant to him to hear, especially as he has spent all season uncomfortable with being called a hero after what he did as Ronin. Then we get some very high quality trick arrow, including some extra Pym arrows from Scott, which were awesome to see. 

It really funny to think about Spider-Man happening around the same time as this show, just a few neighborhoods over. Never a dull moment in the MCU, especially in New York. 

Thankfully Clint makes it back home for Christmas, complete with a few strays, and we even get confirmation that Laura is a retired SHIELD agent, presumably Agent 19, who passed her title along to Bobbie from AoS when she retired, so kudos to everyone who called that. I hope that we get to see Laura in action sometime, maybe if someone attacks the farmhouse? Clint shows up all dramatic but when he gets there all the bad guys are taken out and Laura is just like "already got it covered, and I've got a pie in the oven!". This whole show was just a ton of fun, lots of heart and humor, and it really gave Clint time to shine. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Cristofle]

11 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Actually, upon further thought, why would Eleanor want to hire anyone to kill Clint Barton?  What does she have against him?  JLD's character (sorry, forgot her name) gave Yelena the information thinking that Clint killed Natasha and so Yelena could get revenge.  Did anyone actually hire her??  Kate said it was an assignment and Yelena never corrected her... I think maybe a bunch of us just jumped to that conclusion?  Not sure, I'm confused now.  

I was planning to rewatch the whole series so I could see every episode in a row and catch what I missed, and I think I'll start with Black Widow first.  

I THINK it's Kingpin who decided he wanted the Ronin dead, he passed the job along to Eleanor, and she hired the Black Widows. I think. But I need to rewatch too, that part is a little fuzzy. I was assuming it was an assignment because JLD's character handed the file to Yelena (who clearly worked for her, she made a crack about wanting a raise) and said "I've got your next target."

[Bill1978]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Wait...the owl is a REAL thing? 

After a quick Google now I understand why we focussed on the owl so much in that scene. I knew it had to have been some kind of inside joke. At the time the best I could do was it was some sort of reference to hawk eyes but I knew it was stupid cause it was an owl.

[swanpride]

Hawkeye was putting Kate in danger and both got too close, there were more than enough reason to get rid of him. 

Regarding references (in this case a missed one), am I the only one who remembered the movie when "Ladyhawk" was posed as a possible name? 

If there is one thing to criticise the show than that it was more a set-up than anything else. But unlike the other shows, it didn't really feel that way most of the time, I guess mostly because really ALL characters were likable, and they all genuinely ended up at a different place and the show knew when it was necessary to allow some time to conclusion. There was nothing half-assed about the confrontation between Clint and Yelena. Nor was it overly long and wordy....certain other shows really missed the right line there, either being too rushed or just babbling on for too long. 

[arc]

8 minutes ago, swanpride said:

If there is one thing to criticise the show than that it was more a set-up than anything else.

I saw an amazing joke that said the MCU shows have basically all been extended origin stories for new costumes for the protagonists (except for Loki, which was 

Spoiler

For Kang’s costume)

 

[Ottis]

My favorite MCU TV series by far. Fun, and also some nice feels with realism like Clint aging, his sorrow for Nat (and he grieves without holding a whole town hostage for way too many episodes), the speech from Kate about how someone with zero super powers can still be a hero if they care enough, and of course Yelena, who is a delight. Jack was a red herring. The track suit mafia came right out of a video game, complete with a truck showing up to unload more bad guys. Kingpin at the end was a massive (literally) bonus.

I will say I have no interest in Maya or her story, and I find the idea that Hawkeye makes his own arrows (with an assist from Stark and Pym) ridiculous. He would have no down time, between fighting and making arrows - just buy them from Stark and Pym, made-to-spec.

I did *not* need to see the musical again, ugh. Was hoping for a quick DD glimpse.

 

[Cristofle]

49 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I did *not* need to see the musical again, ugh. Was hoping for a quick DD glimpse.

Me too. I'm holding out hope until forced otherwise that their plan with Echo, since the Maya actress is new, is to bolster her with pros like VDO and Charlie Cox.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

9 hours ago, Ottis said:

. . . I find the idea that Hawkeye makes his own arrows (with an assist from Stark and Pym) ridiculous. He would have no down time, between fighting and making arrows - just buy them from Stark and Pym, made-to-spec.

How does Clint have enough income to set up an arrow workshop and buy all that equipment? And treat his kids to a vacation in NY, complete with Broadway tickets?  What is his source of income?  Is he in better shape than Sam because Laura has a sweet Shield pension?

And since Kate couldn't even pay for her diner breakfast since her mom cut her off, how did she pay for the Xmas tree, sweaters, DVD's, etc. as well as the material for the costumes not only for the LARPers, but for herself and Clint?  Unless she was drawing a paycheck for working at her mother's security company, in which case she should have at least had a debit card tied to her bank account and so be able to pay for all that stuff and breakfast. The inconsistencies with Kate's finances really bugged me.

Labeling the arrows was cute, but they always pull the arrows blindly, so unless the labels were in braille, I don't see how that would help anyone.

14 hours ago, tv echo said:

And Yelena's there - in green, of course (everyone else is wearing red or black).

 

19 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I was kind of disappointed they didn't show where she went after all that.

I hope she went back for that fab green coat!

20 hours ago, swanpride said:

Though now I am completely convinced that Kate's father is actually alive and will turn up in the future. Completely the kind of guy who would take an opportunity to fake his death, leaving his wife to deal with the fallout

Some people did that after 9/11.

17 hours ago, arc said:

And Kingpin moving to assassinate Eleanor without even securing her "insurance" policy seems beneath a criminal mastermind.

Yeah, I didn't get that.

19 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

D'Onofrio growling "Mind your business!" after the breaking of all those arrows gave me the shivers.

I also didn't understand why Kingpin would think that him trying to kill Kate's mother wasn't any of her business.

[Stardancer Supreme]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'll try not to repeat what's already been said, but I love the tie-in that Laura Barton isn't just a housewife in the middle of nowhere.  I think it's Ultron where we first see her (whichever movie it is, doesn't matter) and Clint tells the others that Fury helped him set "this" up.  Fury would have an interest in keeping a former SHIELD agent safe too, so it makes sense.

But if the watch was a retirement gift, why was it at the Avengers compound to be stolen and put in the auction?  Clint says that she needs to keep better track of her stuff, but I was thinking that maybe it was hers from when she was an active agent and it's clearly not just an ordinary watch, but has tons of secrets imbedded in it?  

Clearly Clint had it to remember her by when she was blipped.  That watch may have been left behind at the compound when he "retired" and became Ronin; the Ronin suit plus sword could have been left at the Avenger's compound because that's where Clint probably went after Vormir.  I may have to rewatch the movies to see if that is a possibility.

[FnkyChkn34]

14 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Clearly Clint had it to remember her by when she was blipped.  That watch may have been left behind at the compound when he "retired" and became Ronin; the Ronin suit plus sword could have been left at the Avenger's compound because that's where Clint probably went after Vormir.  I may have to rewatch the movies to see if that is a possibility.

Assuming that she wasn't wearing it when she was blipped, that's an excellent theory.  I like it - thanks!

[MissL]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Regarding references (in this case a missed one), am I the only one who remembered the movie when "Ladyhawk" was posed as a possible name? 

Absolutely not the only one. I love that movie and contend it would have been a bigger hit if not for the soundtrack! Would be interesting if she calls herself that and bumps into the original Wasp later……;)

I had actual tears running down my face during the Yelena and Clint scenes and found myself yelling “I don’t care!” Every time they switched to Maya fighting and a little less so with Kate but still I wanted more time with Yelena and Clint. I want Yelena to know Nate was supposed to be a Natasha and was named for Nat. Those two I care about. Stomps foot.

Edited December 22, 2021 by MissL
More to say

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I THINK it's Kingpin who decided he wanted the Ronin dead, he passed the job along to Eleanor, and she hired the Black Widows. I think. But I need to rewatch too, that part is a little fuzzy. I was assuming it was an assignment because JLD's character handed the file to Yelena (who clearly worked for her, she made a crack about wanting a raise) and said "I've got your next target."

I'm the opposite, I think Kingpin wanted the Watch but, wasn't after Clint. I think Eleanor put the hit out on Clint after she met him in episode 3 or 4 because she was afraid he'd find out the truth.

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Regarding references (in this case a missed one), am I the only one who remembered the movie when "Ladyhawk" was posed as a possible name? 

Nope, as soon as she said it, I was, great movie! 😂

Edited December 22, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Cobalt Stargazer]

26 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Clearly Clint had it to remember her by when she was blipped.  That watch may have been left behind at the compound when he "retired" and became Ronin; the Ronin suit plus sword could have been left at the Avenger's compound because that's where Clint probably went after Vormir.  I may have to rewatch the movies to see if that is a possibility.

I'm still wondering what else was recovered (read: stolen) from the rubble of the compound, because that's the only way anyone would have even found the suit and the sword, not just the watch. It wouldn't have just been Clint's stuff that was buried when the building was destroyed, it would have been whatever else was inside.

[Sakura12]

This was the show I was least sure about or interested in the first round of D+ shows and it ended up being my favorite. I mean we got more Yelena and Kingpin. 

Yelena has quickly become my favorite character. I only rewartch the Black Widow movie for her. She has such a heartbreaking story and yet keeps her humor. Florence Pugh is such a great actor, she really pulls you into her roles. I'm glad she and Clint got to talk about Nat. She meant so much to both of them. I hope she shows up at Kate Bishop's place after all she did ask her to go out for drinks. 

Is Kingpin dead? I mean they did bring in Evan Peter's as a got you role. But then something else happened on another property and that makes me think we haven't seen the last of him. He is superhuman.

Loved the outfits and hope we get more Hawkeye's. I'm glad Clint made it home for Christmas.

So Laura is Agent 19 Mockingbird. Or at least the first one. I'm going to go with the name was passed to Bobbi since she retired.

I kind of wish they had shown Yelena watching the musical at the end with a confused look on her face.

[Zonk]

Satisfying finale.

That end credit scene was simultaniously the best and the worst thing in the world. Kinda like the room.

12 hours ago, paigow said:

Looks like a retirement gift from SHIELD for Agent 19

But Agent 19 was already a prominent character in Agents of SHIELD. I knew the Netflix shows weren't strictly canon anymore, but Agents was usually regarded as still being in the MCU. So that's interesting...

12 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

I may have laughed out loud when Maya killed Kingpin (presuming he is dead - I don't know anything about him I didn't even know he had superstrength etc).

Maya got way too close to him for the gun to be effective. Kingpin is surprisingly quick. That's one of his abilities apart from the strength and ability to take a punch. He often catches people off guard due to his swiftness. There is a reason they panned away from that scene. Maya is toast.

10 hours ago, arc said:

I'm sad Kazi didn't make it. I liked the dynamic he had with Maya. And at the end, it sounded like he betrayed Maya's dad out of fear of the Kingpin, not because of ambition. He felt he was stuck in that world. Stuck enough that he'd murder Maya if his back was against the wall, but still, a shame.

Only because they made some changes in editing. The "this is my life"-speech is clearly where they were going for originally. Then they added some clearly done in post "please don't make me do this, Maya" with him being filmed from behind. It wasn't even done well.

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

Laura's a fair bit older than Bobbi and we know she retired long enough ago to have a kid who would be over 20 if he hadn't been blipped, so I don't see any incongruity in both her and Bobbi being Mockingbird, with the code name being passed on.

That would be a good solution to the problem, that the code name and agent number gets passed on.

4 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Also, where was Julia Louis-Dreyfus?  Is it just me, or did this show retcon the end-credits scene in Black Widow?

Not necessarily. Yelena is a modern woman. She can work multiple jobs. ;)

[Sakura12]

6 minutes ago, Zonk said:

But Agent 19 was already a prominent character in Agents of SHIELD. I knew the Netflix shows weren't strictly canon anymore, but Agents was usually regarded as still being in the MCU. So that's interesting...

They have never said that AoS is canon in the MCU. While they just made the Netflix show characters canon. So technically Laura Barton's real name could still be Bobbi Morse. 

[Zonk]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

They have never said that AoS is canon in the MCU. While they just made the Netflix show characters canon. 

AoS specifically tied into the first few movies, with Hydra becoming a major plot thread after it was revealed in Winter Soldier. It also has Agent Coulson, that woman from Thor and Nick Fury in it. It was at least at some point clearly canon.

The Netflix shows always tied in a lot more loosely and at some point TPTB specifically made them non-canon. They either changed their mind, or these are alternate universe versions of the characters, that just happen to look the same. Also so far only Daredevil characters.

[Sakura12]

7 minutes ago, Zonk said:

AoS specifically tied into the first few movies, with Hydra becoming a major plot thread after it was revealed in Winter Soldier. It also has Agent Coulson, that woman from Thor and Nick Fury in it. It was at least at some point clearly canon.

I know. But Fiege and Co have never acknowledged AoS as canon. And he still hasn't. While he's shown interest in the Netflix shows. That's what we have to to go by. 

On another note I'm having boxed macaroni for dinner tonight in honor of Yelena. 

[swanpride]

I don't think that it contradicts AoS, because they most likely reuse the numbers of real or official diseased Agents after a few years. Otherwise they would have left the double digits a long, long time ago. 

 

And while Feige refuses so acknowledge the show officially (though, to be fair, he did and to a degree still does the same thing with the Netflix shows), it is notable that they only made a reference to the 19, and not to the name "Bobbie Morse", hence doing nothing which outright contradicts the existence of the (widely popular) Bobbie Morse AoS introduced. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by swanpride

[Cristofle]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm the opposite, I think Kingpin wanted the Watch but, wasn't after Clint. I think Eleanor put the hit out on Clint after she met him in episode 3 or 4 because she was afraid he'd find out the truth.

That's possible. It could be the call that she made in Ep 4 was to JLD (and somewhere in that offscreen timeframe, JLD met Yelena at Natasha's grave), in which case her motive was to try to put a stop to Clint lest he find out who she was working for, which he would tell Kate. I'm going back to her being dumber than I thought if so, though. Bringing in a Black Widow to kill an Avenger without Kingpin knowing about it? He was pissed early in the episode that "an Avenger was taking an outsized interest in his business" and her plan seemed like one that easily could and did backfire. 

[swanpride]

Btw, regarding Kingpin surviving in the end: He wears a bullet proof suit. So yeah, he is most likely still alive. 

[Zonk]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I know. But Fiege and Co have never acknowledged AoS as canon. And he still hasn't. While he's shown interest in the Netflix shows. That's what we have to to go by. 

Do you have a source for that? All I can find are vague quotes from Feigi that indicate that the Disney+ shows are the first shows he considers canon in the MCU. Which would mean both Netflix and AoS would be out.

I think in-world there is more evidence that AoS is part of the MCU than the Netflix shows. If you have real-world sources, like Feige, saying otherwise I'd very much like to read them.

[Sakura12]

They have left the door open by not saying or showing the name Bobbi Morse. So they could still make AoS's Mockingbird canon.

You are right until we see more we won't have official confirmation with the Netflix characters. But we have none whatsoever with the AoS characters in the MCU. To the Avengers Coulson is dead. So as of now we only have have Daredevil actors playing the same characters. Whether they are from the Netflix shows remains to be seen. That's what I meant by interest. He specifically hired the same actors. 

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

We find out that Eleanor got sucked into working for the Kingpin to cover his husbands debts, and while that might make her more sympathetic, and she clearly does really love Kate, she did still do a lot of really bad things, and even tried to guilt trip Kate for calling the cops on her. "Arresting your mom on Christmas Kate? And all I did was work with a known criminal, put a hit on your mentor, murdered a guy, and set up my fiancé for the murder!"

Vera sure gets typecast into playing shitty moms a lot.

It’s hard for me to give Feige the benefit of the doubt that he didn’t replace AOS Bobbi with Laura when he basically disregarded AOS and Agent Carter in the MCU canon.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Sakura12]

7 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

It’s hard for me to give Feige the benefit of the doubt that he didn’t replace AOS Bobbi with Laura when he basically disregarded AOS and Agent Carter in the MCU canon.

Well he did have Jarvis from Agent Carter show up in Endgame. So that's a same actor acknowledgement like Vincent as Kingpin. 

[arc]

16 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Btw, regarding Kingpin surviving in the end: He wears a bullet proof suit. So yeah, he is most likely still alive. 

It’s really hard to imagine Maya didn’t “go for the head”, though.

[Cristofle]

2 minutes ago, arc said:

It’s really hard to imagine Maya didn’t “go for the head”, though.

In the comics she does and blinds him for awhile. I'm guessing it won't be full-on blind here? Just due to, you know, TV/movie logistics. I'm thinking maybe blind in one eye/disfigured. 

[Morrigan2575]

24 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Whether they are from the Netflix shows remains to be seen. That's what I meant by interest. He specifically hired the same actors. 

I'm kind of thinking no, I can't imagine Netflix Kingpin wearing a Hawaiian shirt.😂

10 minutes ago, arc said:

It’s really hard to imagine Maya didn’t “go for the head”, though.

I assumed she did, which is why I assume he'll lose an eye.

[cambridgeguy]

The smartest thing to do regarding the Netflix shows and AoS - keep what you like, ditch the rest.  Use the same actors if you like them (heck, they did that with J Jonah Jameson) and use the same broad strokes, but there's no reason to limit yourself just because of what a TV show you're lukewarm on did.  And with all due respect, AoS wasn't even a top 50 show after its first season.  You're not going to piss off that many fans if something contradicts what they did there.  Fans will find plenty of other things to get pissed off about.  For example, Kate and Clint apparently condemned those shrunken guys to either being an owl's dinner or a lifetime of being tiny and pretty much laughed it off.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Ottis said:

I find the idea that Hawkeye makes his own arrows (with an assist from Stark and Pym) ridiculous. He would have no down time, between fighting and making arrows - just buy them from Stark and Pym, made-to-spec.

That Clint can make his own trick arrows doesn't mean that he doesn't also buy them made to spec. He might typically buy them to spec but didn't have the time to wait for Stark or Pym or whoever to accept and make his order. I would imagine the fact that parts were branded "Stark" probably meant that he did have Stark Industries construct some of the arrowheads or other components and he just put the finishing touches on himself.

Assuming we're to imply that he generally makes his own arrows, I don't think there's anything ridiculous about him wanting to be as independent as possible. Particularly in his Ronin days, he couldn't necessarily have gotten anyone to deliver exactly what he wanted when he wanted it.

And I imagine that he would have plenty of downtime to make his own arrows. As we saw in this episode, he put together a whole bunch of trick arrows in the space of less than a day. Surely, he occasionally has downtime from fighting, family and other stuff to do that when he feels the need.

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

How does Clint have enough income to set up an arrow workshop and buy all that equipment? And treat his kids to a vacation in NY, complete with Broadway tickets?  What is his source of income?  Is he in better shape than Sam because Laura has a sweet Shield pension?

And since Kate couldn't even pay for her diner breakfast since her mom cut her off, how did she pay for the Xmas tree, sweaters, DVD's, etc. as well as the material for the costumes not only for the LARPers, but for herself and Clint?  Unless she was drawing a paycheck for working at her mother's security company, in which case she should have at least had a debit card tied to her bank account and so be able to pay for all that stuff and breakfast. The inconsistencies with Kate's finances really bugged me.

Labeling the arrows was cute, but they always pull the arrows blindly, so unless the labels were in braille, I don't see how that would help anyone.

Clint had been working for more than a decade as an agent of SHIELD. I assume that alone paid much better than Sam's paying gig as a civilian. In addition, presumably when he was operating as Ronin, Clint was not above seizing criminals' cash and valuable contraband for himself.  I'd assume that Clint is in a relatively better position financially than Sam because he a) had better/longer connections to people like Nick Fury and Tony Stark b) had a higher profile as an Avenger than Sam up till now c) did not get blipped and so had no disruption in terms of earning d) has a personality that is much more focused on strategic planning.

I was under the impression that mom turned off her credit cards to teach her a lesson but eventually lifted the restriction. But alternatively, cutting off credit cards is something I could easily envision a workaround for someone who was as megarich as Kate is supposed to be.

The arrowheads seemed to have different textures to them, so I suppose that could be a first way to tell things apart and then looking to see how they were labeled would confirm that. Of course, we weren't shown anyone taking a sec to figure out that this was indeed the magnet arrow versus the shrinking arrow vs. the tear gas arrow because that would slow things to a crawl. 

[Dandesun]

I did like how both Clint and Kate had the nose bandages at the end. Nice nod to Fraction's Clint.

I also liked how the 2nd issue of Kate Bishop: Hawkeye came out today and there she is running around working on solving things with Lucky. She makes a few comments about circuses are Clint's territory (in 616 they are) and she's constantly texting with Cassie and America. 

AND the 3rd issue of Echo's Phoenix mini so... all in all... a good comic day to go with the last episode of Hawkeye. 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Dandesun

[Sakura12]

With Kingpin his last line was sometimes family doesn't see eye to eye. So that probably implies she takes out one of his eye. Especially since we didn't see the shot. 

[ProudMary]

It's not Feige, but remember back when Agents of Shield first premiered and the tag line was, "It's All Connected?" It was actually used in promos. Maria Hill, Nick Fury, and Lady Sif all made appearances in early episodes. My head Canon says that Bobbi Morse in AOS inherited the Mockingbird name from Laura Barton upon her retirement. 

From 2015: 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by ProudMary

[Cobalt Stargazer]

25 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Clint had been working for more than a decade as an agent of SHIELD. I assume that alone paid much better than Sam's paying gig as a civilian. In addition, presumably when he was operating as Ronin, Clint was not above seizing criminals' cash and valuable contraband for himself.  I'd assume that Clint is in a relatively better position financially than Sam because he a) had better/longer connections to people like Nick Fury and Tony Stark b) had a higher profile as an Avenger than Sam up till now c) did not get blipped and so had no disruption in terms of earning d) has a personality that is much more focused on strategic planning.

I would think that Barton would have various safe deposit boxes or even a couple of offshore accounts where he could access funds without being traced. When part of your job is covert ops, you'd need cash rather than credit cards so there wouldn't be a paper trail, so there were probably more than a few strongboxes he knew about that no one else did.

[moonshine71]

14 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

 

I may have laughed out loud when Maya killed Kingpin (presuming he is dead - I don't know anything about him I didn't even know he had superstrength etc). Only because people were so excited about his return and then the MCU is see ya later. Still doesn't mean I care about Maya's story going forward.

 

 

I may have laughed out loud at the idea that anyone believes Kingpin is actually dead. Even w/o any knowledge of the comics or the characters or relevant storylines, it is just basic television storytelling. No actual visual confirmation, no body... almost certainly no death.

 

 

[wlk68]

I was hoping that Clint would bring Yelena home along with Kate. I can't help but think that the Barton clan would've loved to meet Natasha's sister and Yelena would love to meet Natasha's namesake: Nathaniel. 

[WildPlum]

The series wrapped up pretty well - not a fan of that much "shoot 'em 'up" and noir/streetcrime/grim&gritty (otherwise I'd be watching "Mayor of Kingstown" and I am not) and there were a lot of bodies on the ice and on the street. I'd prefer to think of then as merely stunned and not dead.

I am also amused to read all the breathless reviews out on the media that this is the start of Hawkeye (as Clint) And Mockingbird - pretty sure we have seen the last of the Barton family except perhaps a brief cameo from Clint in another series. Sure, I'll buy that Laura was once Agent 19 and maybe even carried the Mockingbird code name (that is never mentioned here, just implied by "19" on the watch and using the fact that Mockingbird/Bobbi Morse was Agent 19 in the comics) before Bobbi Morse did, much like Natasha was not the only Widow or Black Widow. It doesn't take away from the individuals that worked the code name. Laura was also the name of Hawkeye's wife in the Ultimates Universe - although, in a very "women in fridges" moment you knew she and the kids existed but didn't learn her name until just after

Spoiler

she'd been shot in the head and killed.

 

Just now, WildPlum said:

The series wrapped up pretty well - not a fan of that much "shoot 'em 'up" and noir/streetcrime/grim&gritty (otherwise I'd be watching "Mayor of Kingstown" and I am not) and there were a lot of bodies on the ice and on the street. I'd prefer to think of then as merely stunned and not dead.

I am also amused to read all the breathless reviews out on the media that this is the start of Hawkeye (as Clint) And Mockingbird - pretty sure we have seen the last of the Barton family except perhaps a brief cameo from Clint in another series. Sure, I'll buy that Laura was once Agent 19 and maybe even carried the Mockingbird code name (that is never mentioned here, just implied by "19" on the watch and using the fact that Mockingbird/Bobbi Morse was Agent 19 in the comics) before Bobbi Morse did, much like Natasha was not the only Widow or Black Widow. It doesn't take away from the individuals that worked the code name. Laura was also the name of Hawkeye's wife in the Ultimates Universe - although, in a very "women in fridges" moment you knew she and the kids existed but didn't learn her name until just after

  Hide contents

she'd been shot in the head and killed (as were all the kids) when the Bad Guys were coming after Clint in his home

 

 

[anna0852]

25 minutes ago, wlk68 said:

I was hoping that Clint would bring Yelena home along with Kate. I can't help but think that the Barton clan would've loved to meet Natasha's sister and Yelena would love to meet Natasha's namesake: Nathaniel. 

I called him bringing Kate and was crossing my fingers for Yelena.

I think Yelena needs to spend some time with Bruce and Carol as well. Especially Carol. She was working with Nat during the Snap years.

[chitowngirl]

She also had some sightseeing she wanted to do in New York..l

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Vera sure gets typecast into playing shitty moms a lot.

It’s hard for me to give Feige the benefit of the doubt that he didn’t replace AOS Bobbi with Laura when he basically disregarded AOS and Agent Carter in the MCU canon.

Besides using a couple of Netflix actors in other MCU roles he has never directly contridicted any Marvel TV show. And that was before the varient concept was introduced. This production easily could have gone beyond Agent 19 if they chose to. But with no reason to the all connected tagline still has life.

[mmccpp]

11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I knew Kate would go home with Clint, I was kind of hoping Yelena would show up. Not to replace Nat but, family belongs together and this was Nat's family too.

I loved that Kate and Dog went home with him, but, yes, Yelena needed some caring, too.