S01.E05: Ronin

[WildPlum]

I liked Yelena this episode. Still not all that fond of Maya and not interested in an Echo series (likely where she goes after Wilson Fisk while wearing the Ronin suit). At the start of the series, I could see why Clint wouldn't involve other Avengers (it just isn't that large a scale problem) but things have gotten to a point where it is pretty silly not to - he could really use the resources at this point.

 

I'd have thought that at this point there are no Avengers, but they keep getting referred to as an on-going thing. I didn't watch more than part of the first episode of Falcon & Winter Soldier, so I don't know what happened there.

Edited December 16, 2021 by WildPlum

[Sakura12]

6 minutes ago, Abra said:

Black Widow is the only MCU movie I haven't watched because I am so very sick of Scarlett Johansson, but if Yelena is as fun in that movie as she was in this episode, I may decide to give it a try someday

Imo Yelena was the best part of the Black Widow movie. I love her description of American Christmas, trees, presents and a super powered reindeer. Lol

[AimingforYoko]

They have to do Young Avengers just for more Kate-Yelena banter.

14 hours ago, arc said:

I was already enjoying the episode a lot and then the show dropped one of the only modern Christmas songs I like (Run-DMC's "Christmas in Hollis").

If you like that one, enjoy a Clarence Carter ("Strokin'") classic:

 

[Sakura12]

Could Laura Barton be a daughter or an adopted daughter of Kingpin. And the watch is his, and she brought the watch to the Avengers because it has information on it.

[Amandarez73]

6 hours ago, swanpride said:

The only thing I didn't quite get was why Kate didn't mention the "best shot is the one he didn't take" conversation with Clint. 

 

 

I haven’t seen anyone suggesting this yet but I’m 100% convinced Clint isn’t talking about Natasha.  We are meant to assume that because it’s the story we know about how we met BUT Laura is much less innocent housewife in this show.  And the best shot he didn’t take lead to him having a family.  Laura is ex spy or something- another foe that he turned. 
 

anyone else think that? 

[Guest]

It’s official. Yelena makes everything better. With Marvel transitioning away from the original avengers I am really happy with the casting of this new group. Yelena and Kate together bodes very well for whatever is to come. 

12 hours ago, tv echo said:

I love Yelena ("Okay. That's a lie also." LOL) However, it's a bit hypocritical for Yelena to be condemning Clint for his past killings when she's killed a lot of people herself. She probably wouldn't even care if she didn't think that he killed her sister.

How is it hypocritical when Clint was an adult who made a choice and Yelena was a child kidnapped, trained to be a killer and subjected to mind control? Now if she meets and condemns Bucky she will be a hypocrite. 

[SnarkShark]

6 hours ago, arc said:

As perceptive as Kate is, she maaaybe could have made an informed guess that Yelena already knew that story. Cause I think Nat woulda told her.

I love wonder if the conversation between Kate and Yelena had more that got cut, where they discuss this. 

I mean, using another conversation, we never actually hear Kate tell Clint that Yelena believes he killed Natasha, but we know it has to have happened.  Stuff cut for time. 

[paigow]

28 minutes ago, Dani said:

How is it hypocritical when Clint was an adult who made a choice and Yelena was a child kidnapped, trained to be a killer and subjected to mind control? Now if she meets and condemns Bucky she will be a hypocrite. 

Yelena would meet Bucky and fall in love with him... True Russian Hero... Better than "Dad"...

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 12/15/2021 at 11:29 PM, paigow said:

Yelena would meet Bucky and fall in love with him... True Russian Hero... Better than "Dad"...

If she calls him Bucky Barnes over and over, I would be down for that, because you know he'd hate it.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I was just referring to the fact that all of the MCU D+ show villains so far have all been female characters. But you’re right, this plot twist feels more organic and actually makes sense, unlike the mess in TFAWS.

Well, not all...certainly each of the Marvel D+ live shows have had villains who were male. Heck, except for Sam, each of the main protagonists is arguably a villain in his or her own right. 

14 hours ago, paigow said:

Fisk decides to purge his employees using Ronin... Kazi rats out his bros... Ronin now has a mole that can find Fisk... but never kills Fisk... implying that Ronin was a fraud -i.e. Fisk WAS his new master / lord  

One of the things that is frustrating with this series is we still don't know much more about Clint's time as Ronin than the very basic stuff that was shown in Endgame. I'd much rather develop that backstory than indulge in laughs about the tracksuit mafia or hear about Kate's frustration about not being full partners with Clint.

Dancing Pizza Dog can stay though...

5 hours ago, Abra said:

Black Widow is the only MCU movie I haven't watched because I am so very sick of Scarlett Johansson, but if Yelena is as fun in that movie as she was in this episode, I may decide to give it a try someday. I need the Kate and Yelena show to go in the MCU/D+ pipeline immediately, thank you.

Kudos to the multiple people on this forum who called Eleanor Bishop being a bad guy, because I wasn't seeing it until the moment Kate told her about Sloan and the money laundering. Now I wonder how much Jack/Jacques is involved in Eleanor's evil deeds, or if she's manipulating him too (although he's clearly still a bad guy).

FWIW, Black Widow is IMO a frustratingly bad movie, probably the worst in the MCU in terms of logical plotting. But Yelena is very fun and watchable. 

As to Eleanor, one simply doesn't cast Vera Farmiga to be an innocent bystander and concerned mom (at least these days).

[swanpride]

It's less the logical plotting which bothers me about Black Widow and more that they go for the 

Spoiler

"forgive your abuser" plot point which I have really come to hate. People who give you to a killer organisation aren't your family, period. That and the idea that Natasha bombed a child to proof herself to Shield just bothers me on such a deep level, that it spoils the good parts of the movie.

As for the mom: I wouldn't call it "subtle" - they REALLY should learn from AoS when it comes to plot twists - but at least it is believable that Kate wouldn't catch on. Not like, for example, Obediah, who was so obviously evil that it never made sense that Tony trusted him at all. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

21 minutes ago, swanpride said:

It's less the logical plotting which bothers me about Black Widow and more that they go for the 

  Reveal spoiler

"forgive your abuser" plot point which I have really come to hate. People who give you to a killer organisation aren't your family, period. That and the idea that Natasha bombed a child to proof herself to Shield just bothers me on such a deep level, that it spoils the good parts of the movie.

As for the mom: I wouldn't call it "subtle" - they REALLY should learn from AoS when it comes to plot twists - but at least it is believable that Kate wouldn't catch on. Not like, for example, Obediah, who was so obviously evil that it never made sense that Tony trusted him at all. 

Honestly? A plot twist is supposed to make sense, not prove that the writers are smarter than their audience. I couldn't really get into AoS once they started dealing with movie-level threats so I can't speak to if they handled it differently, but like you said it at least has some internal logic that Kate wouldn't suspect Eleanor. Jack and his waxed mustache was easy to be suspicious of once he stole the Ronin sword, and we still don't know if he killed Armand or if someone else did it. That's the one thing that hasn't been dealt with yet, since Kate still hasn't talked to the detective who called her.

As for Black Widow

Melina tells Natasha that she herself was cycled through the Red Room something like four times before Nat was even born, that she was a mouse born in a cage and had never had a choice.  Alexei may well have been glad to get his version of the super serum, but he ends up in prison for some unknown reason, abandoned and left to rot while Dreykov went on doing whatever he wanted. I don't think it was specified that the building Natasha helped blow up was to prove something to SHIELD, though she did want Dreykov dead. His daughter was one of those unintentional casualties Kate was talking about in this episode, some of the red in Nat's ledger she was always wanting to make amends for.

Come to that, we see what Yelena is like in the present, that she seems perfectly fine with wasting Clint and possibly Kate if she interferes - "Do not get in my way again" - because she thinks Barton is the reason her sister's dead. Whatever Clint's done, he would never have hurt Natasha deliberately, but Yelena is looking right past all the good stuff he has done because she's angry and grieving that she didn't get to have more time with Nat, make memories that weren't tainted by shitty circumstances. Somebody else said it upthread, but Natasha only had one real sister, and she showed up because she wants blood. Maybe she's right about him not being heroic, but she's wrong about why she's right.

[tv echo]

FYI, Marvel's recap of this episode...

‘Hawkeye’: Episode 5 Rundown, Bro
BY RACHEL PAIGE    December 15, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/hawkeye-episode-5-rundown 

Quote

There’s only more bad news after that, as via some shocking texts, Yelena informs Kate that she took her advice and looked into who hired her. That said, she felt Kate deserves to know that her mother Eleanor hired her who just so happens to be working with another man Kate doesn’t recognize. Passing the phone to Clint, he knows exactly who it is.

“That’s the guy I’ve been worried about this whole time,” Clint tells her. “Kingpin.”

ETA: I still don't know why Eleanor Bishop wants to kill Clint Barton/Hawkeye.

Edited December 16, 2021 by tv echo

[pancake bacon]

11 hours ago, Dani said:

How is it hypocritical when Clint was an adult who made a choice and Yelena was a child kidnapped, trained to be a killer and subjected to mind control? Now if she meets and condemns Bucky she will be a hypocrite. 

Natasha spent her last years trying to atone for the "red in her ledger", even though she too went through all that Yelena did. Bucky feels remorse for the devastation he's caused, even though he was under extreme mind control (frozen when not needed! Yikes). So I'll go with Yelena is a bit younger in life, and give a bit more context and a bit less judge-y for Clint's actions. 

Actual organized crime member Maya feels so hurt by the loss of her father, she is waiting to kill Ronin. It's similar for Clint, with the loss of his entire family. Both Maya and Clint got taken over by emotion, and were ready/did make some horrible choices. I understand them both. 

[callmebetty]

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I know that the tracksuit mafia are criminals, but I really hope most of them make it, they're just too likable to die. Who can be mad at someone with such good taste in Christmas music?

And good taste in movies and a self awareness of it, The Royal Tenenbaums.

[RobertDeSneero]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One of the things that is frustrating with this series is we still don't know much more about Clint's time as Ronin than the very basic stuff that was shown in Endgame. I'd much rather develop that backstory than indulge in laughs about the tracksuit mafia or hear about Kate's frustration about not being full partners with Clint.

The point of this series should be to establish Kate Bishop as a character in the MCU.  Clint's backstory doesn't do that unless he killed someone in a way that affects Kate.

 

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

ETA: I still don't know why Eleanor Bishop wants to kill Clint Barton/Hawkeye.

My guess is that Kingpin wants Clint dead and Eleanor is working for Kingpin and hired Clint on his behalf.  The reasons for wanting Clint dead are related to the watch.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

The point of this series should be to establish Kate Bishop as a character in the MCU.  Clint's backstory doesn't do that unless he killed someone in a way that affects Kate.

I think it's an equally valid point to further detail who Clint Barton is and why he is doing things, as well as the passing the torch to Kate Bishop.

Even if we agreed that the primary purpose of the series is to establish Kate in the MCU, better establishing what Clint did as Ronin would help establish why he is wanting to give up superheroics, why he is willing to turn over the Hawkeye mantle to Kate, and what sort of mentor he may be to her going forward.

 

[Cristofle]

8 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

The point of this series should be to establish Kate Bishop as a character in the MCU.  Clint's backstory doesn't do that unless he killed someone in a way that affects Kate.

 

My guess is that Kingpin wants Clint dead and Eleanor is working for Kingpin and hired Clint on his behalf.  The reasons for wanting Clint dead are related to the watch.

 

Yep. And this seems to be a long-standing problem, given that his wife clearly knows about it. 

I think this is a good way to introduce Kingpin in this series - he is often the man behind the man behind the man. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, pancake bacon said:

Natasha spent her last years trying to atone for the "red in her ledger", even though she too went through all that Yelena did. Bucky feels remorse for the devastation he's caused, even though he was under extreme mind control (frozen when not needed! Yikes).

So. Natasha did not go through all that Yelena did. They both went through the red room but Natasha was not subjected to the chemical mind control that Yelena was. 

Just because some victims feel a lot of guilt and remorse doesn’t mean they all have to. We also don’t know if Yelena feels guilt or remorse. I don’t see what any of that is at all comparable to a grown man, completely of his own free will, going on a killing spree. Maybe she will grow to be less harsh towards Clint and maybe she won’t but neither choice makes her a hypocrite. 

[swanpride]

9 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Honestly? A plot twist is supposed to make sense, not prove that the writers are smarter than their audience

Which is exactly what AoS did so well. They managed to pull off a twist which totally made sense while also suprising the audience. Their trick was basically to draw so many red arrows in the air that you just overlooked the really, really big obvious one. Hence me saying that the other shows should learn a thing or two from the show. Like, AoS would have managed to make us like the mother so much that we wouldn't even consider her, while also dropping more than enough hints for the turn. Hawkeye did okay, but there were a few hints too much towards the mother to pull off this twist. 

[WildPlum]

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

The point of this series should be to establish Kate Bishop as a character in the MCU.  Clint's backstory doesn't do that unless he killed someone in a way that affects Kate.

My guess is that Kingpin wants Clint dead and Eleanor is working for Kingpin and hired Clint on his behalf.  The reasons for wanting Clint dead are related to the watch.

Definitely the point of this series is to usher Clint Barton out and Kate Bishop in as the "new" Hawkeye.

If it has been 2 years since the Snap, I have no idea why Kingpin would, just now, be going after "Ronin" - although that is probably how Maya got info on his wife and kids. Someone upthread mention the idea that Laura was somehow involved with Kingpin prior, and that would tie in neatly. Clint's death would tie up an old loose end AND punish Laura sufficiently. Although IF the Avengers still exist in some form, that might attract a little more attention than a top street-level criminal might want.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, WildPlum said:

Definitely the point of this series is to usher Clint Barton out and Kate Bishop in as the "new" Hawkeye.

If it has been 2 years since the Snap, I have no idea why Kingpin would, just now, be going after "Ronin" - although that is probably how Maya got info on his wife and kids. Someone upthread mention the idea that Laura was somehow involved with Kingpin prior, and that would tie in neatly. Clint's death would tie up an old loose end AND punish Laura sufficiently. Although IF the Avengers still exist in some form, that might attract a little more attention than a top street-level criminal might want.

Kingpin isn't/wasn't going after Ronin.  Maya was.  One thing Dirty Jon Snow (can't recall the character's name) kept pushing with Maya was to be careful and not to piss "Uncle" off with the Ronin hunt.

As for Eleanor, I can't recall when she made her weird phone call, but if it was after she official learned that Kate was "on a case" with Clint Barton, she might well have hired Yelena to end Clint Barton to keep her daughter out of whatever dangerous case Barton had roped her into.

Next week I hope we see Kingpin menacingly make an omelet at somebody.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, WildPlum said:

Definitely the point of this series is to usher Clint Barton out and Kate Bishop in as the "new" Hawkeye

I'm not sure it's 100% a Clint send off. Comics wise they're both Hawkeye. Hell, I think Lemiere's title (what little I read) was Hawkeye and it was about both and, their partnership. So, it's totally possible that Clint passes the mantel, also possible that we get more seasons of whacky Clint and Kate fun. I'm hoping for the latter 

[arc]

59 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Kingpin isn't/wasn't going after Ronin.  Maya was.  One thing Dirty Jon Snow (can't recall the character's name) kept pushing with Maya was to be careful and not to piss "Uncle" off with the Ronin hunt.

I think that's right too, but then we gotta figure out why the Tracksuits were going after the watch. If Kingpin wanted it, he probably could have straight up bid for it. The Tracksuits on their own presumably don't have the money for that. But they weren't going after Ronin's sword or suit; it was clear they wanted the watch. And then Maya got into the Ronin hunt after Kate wore the suit and sparked the idea that maybe the Ronin was back. I assume the finale will explain this, but it all seems like quite a web of coincidences right now.

[paigow]

Barton needs to page Captain Marvel and his Kingpin problem is solved. Or Strange... Or Banner

[calliope1975]

The show's social media is playing up - Will Clint make it home for Christmas? - and I would hope the answer isn't Nope, he's dead. That would be a real bummer of an ending for the tone the show has had. But we'll see. The MCU is teeing up a new generation, though, so I fully expect Kate to be the 'new' Hawkeye and Clint to retire/fake his death/really die. 

Didn't Ronin disappear after Nat found Clint in Endgame? It was, what looked like, the reappearance of Ronin in NYC that tipped Maya and the TSM off. 

[Jenniferbug]

I'm confused why Yelena followed Eleanor in the first place. Val is the one who contacted her about the mission. Did Val tell her Eleanor was involved? Was she following Kingpin and happened to see Eleanor? I don't know how she goes from "I don't know who hired me" to "I'll follow Kate's mom. Oh, she's having a meeting with a super shady dude. Clearly she must be who hired me". Did I miss an explanation?

[WildPlum]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm not sure it's 100% a Clint send off. Comics wise they're both Hawkeye. Hell, I think Lemiere's title (what little I read) was Hawkeye and it was about both and, their partnership. So, it's totally possible that Clint passes the mantel, also possible that we get more seasons of whacky Clint and Kate fun. I'm hoping for the latter 

I doubt Disney is hanging on to Renner. Plus I think I've read, in several places, that the next phase of Marvel movies is to concentrate on newer characters while rebooting some older franchises (Fantastic Four, various X-Men projects, whatever the state of movie rights there is). I'd be very surprised to see Renner's Hawkeye again after the end of this.

Unless, of course, they are going to take the various "Old Man Logan" and "Old Man Hawkeye" to film.

Edited December 16, 2021 by WildPlum

[pancake bacon]

6 hours ago, Dani said:

I don’t see what any of that is at all comparable to a grown man, completely of his own free will, going on a killing spree.

It's not comparable, but it's not binary either. Yelena pulling the card of Clint a trail of blood that would wrap the world around (paraphrased) isn't much of an argument when there is Tony Stark (death for profit!), Zemo or all the assassins in the MCU, and yes, likely to a lesser degree the brainwashed like Bucky and the Black Widows out there.  Yelena is young, and  hopefully her character realizes what she's talking about in later development.

PS. There should be a band called Bucky and the Black Widows.  They play soft jazz. 🤣

[Morrigan2575]

14 minutes ago, WildPlum said:

I doubt Disney is hanging on to Renner. Plus I think I've read, in several places, that the next phase of Marvel movies is to concentrate on newer characters while rebooting some older franchises (Fantastic Four, various X-Men projects, whatever the state of movie rights there is). I'd be very surprised to see Renner's Hawkeye again after the end of this.

Unless, of course, they are going to take the various "Old Man Logan" and "Old Man Hawkeye" to film.

I haven't heard any of that but. I also haven't been reading anything either. Guess we'll see.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Jenniferbug said:

I'm confused why Yelena followed Eleanor in the first place. Val is the one who contacted her about the mission. Did Val tell her Eleanor was involved? Was she following Kingpin and happened to see Eleanor? I don't know how she goes from "I don't know who hired me" to "I'll follow Kate's mom. Oh, she's having a meeting with a super shady dude. Clearly she must be who hired me". Did I miss an explanation?

It's possible that Yelena took something from Kate's apartment that would lead her to Eleanor, even if we didn't see her do it. She was there long enough to make mac and cheese and find the hot sauce, so she could also have poked around before Kate returned, trying to find a way to get to Clint instead. If I'm right about Val just being the broker or go-between, Yelena may have heard Eleanor's name in passing, but that just raises the question of how or why Val is connected to Kingpin. He's recognizable enough that even Clint warning Laura that the 'big guy' would be involved soon elicited an 'oh my God' from her, so I guess you don't even have to say his name to get a reaction. Of course, if Val arranges wet work for money, why wouldn't she be acquainted with both Eleanor and Fisk? All of this is speculation, though, I'm really just spitballing.

[MissL]

Wait Maya is going to get her own show? Someone tell the actress she needs a facial expression beyond perma scowl. You can show anger and frustration in more subtle ways. Not impressed. Can I have daredevil back?

I love Yelena. Still mad they did Black Widow dirty and only gave her a movie after she was dead and it was basically a vehicle to set up Yelena more than it was a black widow movie but…dammit I do love Yelena. I loved her and Kate’s discussion and I want MORE. I was a little surprised she didn’t mention Clints family to try to sway Yelena but then thought maybe she was actually being smart and trying to protect that info but then remembered Clint was walking around no disguise with his kids in NY so maybe it’s not a full on secret he even has kids anymore…and then I stopped and let it go.

Ive also been wondering how much detail the general public has about how Natasha died but even so the government may know more and I had this idea Val was related to the government somehow and would have given Yelena the file. Maybe all the govt knows is it’s a soul for the soul stone and you have to sacrifice a loved one and Clint is the only one who walked away so….power of deduction but no specifics.

It broke my heart when Clint realized it was Yelena and he just nodded and said “ok” and the look on his face seemed like maybe he thinks he deserves her coming after him. He made me cry twice in one episode.

 

 

[FnkyChkn34]

I don't think they will kill Clint Barton in the last episode. I think he can retire and pass the mantel to Kate, whether or not Jeremy Renner is still on Disney's payroll.  Clint is nearly deaf and getting not getting any younger... retirement makes the most sense. 

[calliope1975]

I'm curious and confused about the Kingpin reveal (but still love it.) Yelena was telling Kate Bishop who hired her, which was Eleanor which Yelena thought was something she should know. Did Kingpin just happen to be in the pic? Why would Kate need a pic of her mother to know who it was? Kate immediately asks Clint who the guy is in the pic to which he responds it's the guy he's been concerned about this whole time. But I would think she'd be more concerned about finding out her mom is shady and murdery (by hire) than some random but well dressed dude who's also there. 

Or should I just repeat to myself it's just a show, I should really just relax?

 

[dwmarch]

2 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

I'm confused why Yelena followed Eleanor in the first place. Val is the one who contacted her about the mission. Did Val tell her Eleanor was involved? Was she following Kingpin and happened to see Eleanor? I don't know how she goes from "I don't know who hired me" to "I'll follow Kate's mom. Oh, she's having a meeting with a super shady dude. Clearly she must be who hired me". Did I miss an explanation?

The behind the scenes explanation that I have seen is that the writers of this show were not aware of the stinger scene in Black Widow where Yelena is recruited by Val.

[Ottis]

I really like this show, and yet, I don’t understand any motivations:

- Why is Clint afraid of Kingpin? Clint is an Avenger.

- Exactly who did Clint kill as Ronin? And how many were there? I thought they were all criminals, and if so, these vengeful relatives of criminals are getting a virtuous take.

- Why does Yelena think Clint killed Nat? Does anyone else think this? Wouldn’t even a little research turn up how upset Clint is about Nat’s death?

I loved the Netflix DD series, and hope the whole thing ports to Disney. 

[magdalene]

I doubt Disney is going to kill off Clint Barton in the last episode during Christmas week.  I think he is going to reunite with his family next week. For me the question is - will they retire Clint permanently or will they keep using him in future projects featuring the younger characters?

The actor playing Yelena is fantastic, now her I would watch in her own series.

[Zonk]

Called it last week that mom was the bad guy. You can look that up. :D

Good episode.

That picture was a little crap but that isn't the same actor from Daredevil, is it? That's a little sad. Kinda hoped they'd reuse him now that Charlie Cox is officially back in the MCU.

[Llywela]

15 minutes ago, Zonk said:

That picture was a little crap but that isn't the same actor from Daredevil, is it? That's a little sad. Kinda hoped they'd reuse him now that Charlie Cox is officially back in the MCU.

It is the same actor from Daredevil, yes. His name is in the credits. Vincent D'Onofrio.

[Zonk]

2 minutes ago, Llywela said:

It is the same actor from Daredevil, yes. His name is in the credits. Vincent D'Onofrio.

Oh it is? Nice. Really didn't recognise him on the loooow res picture.

[bethy]

Jeremy Renner and Florence Pugh are really knocking it out of the park for me when it comes to their grief over Natasha. I hope they can reconcile to the extent that they can mourn her together, the two people who loved her most. I loved that Clint knew exactly who Yelena was when Kate mentioned her. I wonder how much of their story Natasha had told him and when. Like, had she talked to Clint about the little sister she'd had before they were reunited? Did she tell him the whole story after? 

Frankly, I hope that Laura Barton was not some sort of spy in a previous life. I like the idea of her as a regular wife and mother who just loves her husband and supports him in whatever way she can and who Clint trusts with every aspect of his life. I like the idea that regular people with regular jobs and responsibilities can play a role in the saving of the world. 

[WildPlum]

14 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

Or should I just repeat to myself it's just a show, I should really just relax?

 

That's what Tom Servo would tell you.

[Absurda]

On 12/16/2021 at 10:04 AM, Dani said:

Just because some victims feel a lot of guilt and remorse doesn’t mean they all have to. We also don’t know if Yelena feels guilt or remorse. I don’t see what any of that is at all comparable to a grown man, completely of his own free will, going on a killing spree. Maybe she will grow to be less harsh towards Clint and maybe she won’t but neither choice makes her a hypocrite. 

I agree we don't really know how Yelena feels about her time as a Widow beyond her initial anger.  We just haven't had the time with her character in quiet moments where she'd be processing things.  Her situation is much more like Bucky's than Clint's so no hypocrisy here. 

I got the impression that she's not really mad enough about that aspect of Clint's past as Ronin to go after him just for that.  It felt more of an after the fact justification or a line to try and break Kate's allegiance to him.  It really seemed to be more about Nat and the contract than Ronin.

 

17 hours ago, dwmarch said:

The behind the scenes explanation that I have seen is that the writers of this show were not aware of the stinger scene in Black Widow where Yelena is recruited by Val.

Maybe it's both Val and Eleanor.  The stinger scene seemed to be in summer or fall so maybe Val approached first with the Nat story but Yelena didn't go after him right away.  Nat sacrificing herself to save the world tracks with who she was so perhaps Yelena wasn't really sure about what Val said.  Then, in order to get her moving someone on Clint, Eleanor told her about Ronin and offered a contract.  I don't know.  I'm just trying to make it make sense.

[Dandesun]

Val told Yelena that Clint was responsible for Nat's death and she'd want to do something about that if she (Val) were her (Yelena.) BUT I can full on No Prize this as Eleanor's wanting Clint dead (for her own reasons) gave Yelena the chance to actually do something about it. She took the job because it gave her access to kill Clint and 'avenge' her sister.

I'm just waiting for Yelena to realize... oh wait, Val isn't necessarily to be trusted. 

[SnarkShark]

On 12/16/2021 at 8:20 AM, tv echo said:

FYI, Marvel's recap of this episode...

‘Hawkeye’: Episode 5 Rundown, Bro
BY RACHEL PAIGE    December 15, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/hawkeye-episode-5-rundown 

ETA: I still don't know why Eleanor Bishop wants to kill Clint Barton/Hawkeye.

Possibly to remove him from her daughter's life, and also possibly she merely wanted him gone in any fashion, and Kingpin or Val insisted an assassin was the way to do it.

At the very least she has secrets to protect and believed at that point that the driver behind her being at risk was Clint, not Kate.

4 hours ago, Dandesun said:

I'm just waiting for Yelena to realize... oh wait, Val isn't necessarily to be trusted. 

I read somewhere that the writers weren't aware of the exact scene with Val, just that they'd successfully negotiated with Marvel to use Yelena, so the apparent ignoring of her place in this might be because of that.

11 hours ago, bethy said:

Frankly, I hope that Laura Barton was not some sort of spy in a previous life. I like the idea of her as a regular wife and mother who just loves her husband and supports him in whatever way she can and who Clint trusts with every aspect of his life. I like the idea that regular people with regular jobs and responsibilities can play a role in the saving of the world. 

So many hints have been dropped, including in this episode her specifically saying she knew better than anyone why he had to do what he was doing, for any other credible explanation.

15 hours ago, Zonk said:

Oh it is? Nice. Really didn't recognise him on the loooow res picture.

I imagine that's why they put him in the credits, in recognition of that.

Edited December 17, 2021 by SnarkShark

[Cobalt Stargazer]

46 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

I'm just waiting for Yelena to realize... oh wait, Val isn't necessarily to be trusted. 

Judging just by the scene in BW, Yelena doesn't even like Val. Before she gets handed the picture of Clint and offered the contract, she's looking sideways at the Countess' dramatic nose-blowing with this combination of annoyance and sour amusement, like "Why are you even here?" That might just be her general attitude given the way she interacted with Kate, but she wasn't pleased that Val tracked her down and was 'bothering' her on her vacation time. We don't even know how she came to be in contact with her, since before the Snap she was actively trying to help other Widows escape by giving them the antidote. She works for her, she just doesn't seem to actually like her.

[arc]

On 12/16/2021 at 7:29 AM, callmebetty said:

And good taste in movies and a self awareness of it, The Royal Tenenbaums.

They weren't so much talking about movies as they were talking about track suits in history and popular culture. Run DMC, Tommie Smith (1968 Olympic gold medalist), Royal Tenenbaums (presumably Ben Stiller's character and kids), Tony Soprano.

[emma675]

I know nothing about Kingpin and I'm still excited to find out why Kate Bishop's (thanks, Yelena, I will always use her full name now) mom is working with/for him. And why she put a contract out on Barton.

I adore Yelena, so I was thrilled she showed up in Kate Bishop's apartment and they had a little threatening/bonding conversation. I would love to see the two of them pair up together at some point to take on evildoers. I might even accept Maya as part of their trio, assuming she gets her act together. 

This was the first episode all season where I really enjoyed every minute of it. I find it funny that the show is called "Hawkeye" and Barton is basically part of the ensemble cast at this point. 

[xaxat]

Mounting a Calder mobile stationary, flat on a bathroom wall, is a crime against art.

Edited December 18, 2021 by xaxat

[Ceindreadh]

On 12/16/2021 at 3:58 AM, Dani said:

It’s official. Yelena makes everything better. With Marvel transitioning away from the original avengers I am really happy with the casting of this new group. Yelena and Kate together bodes very well for whatever is to come. 

How is it hypocritical when Clint was an adult who made a choice and Yelena was a child kidnapped, trained to be a killer and subjected to mind control? Now if she meets and condemns Bucky she will be a hypocrite. 

 

On 12/16/2021 at 5:04 PM, Dani said:

So. Natasha did not go through all that Yelena did. They both went through the red room but Natasha was not subjected to the chemical mind control that Yelena was. 

Just because some victims feel a lot of guilt and remorse doesn’t mean they all have to. We also don’t know if Yelena feels guilt or remorse. I don’t see what any of that is at all comparable to a grown man, completely of his own free will, going on a killing spree. Maybe she will grow to be less harsh towards Clint and maybe she won’t but neither choice makes her a hypocrite. 

What's the difference between Ronin going on a killing spree and Yelena going on a (paid) killing spree? 

Right now, Yelena is not under any sort of mind control, she is choosing of her own free will to be a paid killer just like Clint chose of his own free will to be Ronin.  

For Yelena to condemn Clint for killing people would be a bit hypocritical.  She's no better than he is, just because she earns money for her kills.