S01.E05: Ronin

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

A fallout nearly derails their partnership, but Kate makes a discovery that changes everything.

Dropping Wednesday, December 15, 2021.

[AnimeMania]

Kate has the Rolex, right? I still don't think she has given it back to Clint.

Why did Kate go to her burned out apartment instead of the one she was currently staying at? Wouldn't the Fire Department have turned off the Gas and Electricity to the apartment until someone checked them to make sure no additional fires started. How was Yelana able to cook? Why is Pizza Dog staying with Grills, I thought he was staying with Kate? We have even seen Pizza Dog hanging out at Kate's Mother's place when Kate was there.

[vb68]

I was so not expecting to see Yelena get dusted at the beginning. That was well done. So is Val contracting all the former Black Widows, too? I was left with that impression.

I enjoyed Yelena's chemistry with Kate Bishop as well and how she always calls her "Kate Bishop". They will make a good pairing down the line in a future project.

I was expecting Maya to kill Kazi as he stood there. That still may happen.

Clint's wife still seems so chill about  well....everything. Maybe way too chill, but I guess she's just use to it.

Loved seeing the New York Memorial  when Clint was talking to Nat.

Edited December 15, 2021 by vb68

[Genus]

Does anyone have any idea who the big guy they keep mentioning is? 

[Bill1978]

Not gonna lie, my favourite moment of the episode was the dusting/undusting of Yelena. Followed by the Yelena/Kate conversation. And the final moment reveal just made me groan at having to finish Daredevil on Netflix. Although I have to admit at one point I was kinda hoping it was Daredevil taking out Maya's hoons and not Clint.

1 hour ago, AnimeMania said:

Why did Kate go to her burned out apartment instead of the one she was currently staying at?

I think she went back to pick up the rest of her stuff as her mum told her she wanted her back home.

I really do appreciate the efforts this show is putting in with Clint grieving the loss of Natasha. She definitely got the Hedwig death treatment in End Game while Tony got the Dobby death treatment.

I am still not interested in watching The Further Adventures of Maya and they only have 1 episode left to make me care about her enough, but honestly her story is way at the bottom of stuff I want to have answered by the end of next week. I definitely need the rolex answered, who Hawkeye's big guy is and I need to see Clint in the purple suit.

[arc]

I was already enjoying the episode a lot and then the show dropped one of the only modern Christmas songs I like (Run-DMC's "Christmas in Hollis"). Actually, I don't even like most of the traditional ones either. Anyways, this would have been an A+ episode just for the final cliffhanger, but I would have given the ep at least an A just for the song, if they hadn't made the reveal.

I kinda think Eleanor framed Jack, but then again, Jack is suspiciously good at fencing and he was invited to that black market auction in ep 1, and most of all, it seems implausible that Laura would be worse at digging up information than Eleanor could be at planting it.

Kingpin!!!!!

44 minutes ago, vb68 said:

I was expecting Maya to kill Kazi as he stood there. That still may happen.

I think she was looking at him with murder in her eyes, but held back rather than kill immediately. If nothing else, she probably wants to get the full story on whether "Uncle" betrayed her father and how much Kazi was involved. Too bad, I was hoping Kazi would make it to Echo's own show, but it's not looking good for him right now.

11 minutes ago, Genus said:

Does anyone have any idea who the big guy they keep mentioning is? 

It's Wilson Fisk, aka Kingpin. In the comics (and the Netflix Marvel series) and Into The Spider-Verse, etc, he's the leader of NYC and East Coast (or all American?) organized crime*. And from that photo Yelena sent Kate, he's actually being portrayed by Vincent D'Onofrio, who memorably portrayed Kingpin already in the Netflix series like Daredevil. And he was great in Daredevil.

* tangent: in the 60s and 70s, Marvel comics were extremely NYC centric and their main organized crime group was an Italian organization… called the "Maggia". (Wikipedia explains it as "Comic creator Scott Shaw believes that the Maggia were created to avoid offending the real-life Mafia, as some comic book distributors had Mafia ties in the 1960s.") Anyways, Kingpin doesn't run the Maggia, he runs his own organization and it's bigger than the current day Maggia.

[Cranberry]

23 minutes ago, Genus said:

Does anyone have any idea who the big guy they keep mentioning is? 

Wilson Fisk, a.k.a. the name Clint called him in the final scene -- Kingpin. Being played here by Vincent D'Onofrio, who also played him in the Netflix/Marvel Television series Daredevil. (The casting was confirmed in the credits of this episode, for anyone who was still unsure after seeing the blurry pic on Kate's phone.)

Edit: Or what arc said, haha.

I love Yelena so much. The conversation between her and Kate tonight was perfect. I can't wait for them to be bantering pals.

That transition when Yelena got dusted... A+.

Loved this last shot in the stylized credits. Kingpin silhouette!

[Spartan Girl]

Yup, Eleanor is this show’s shock villain. So not surprised. The MCU has really gotten predictable. Still better than that Power Broker mess in TFAWS.

Loved Yelena and Kate interacting though. Who doesn’t love mac and cheese?

Edited December 15, 2021 by Spartan Girl
Had more to say

[Cranberry]

Honestly, I'd rather a reveal make sense than surprise me. I vastly prefer this to, say, Gossip Girl changing their original "villain" reveal to a nonsensical one because too many people guessed their original plan. Audiences are savvy. We pick stuff apart; we look for plot clues and character motivations. I'd rather our work be rewarded with a "predictable" reveal than have something come out of left field to shock us. What matters to me here is how this affects Kate.

[Cristofle]

KINGPIN!

As someone who doesn't try to get spoiled, it was pretty obvious in the Maya flashbacks that it was him (D'Onofrio's laugh is very distinctive), but I still wanted actual confirmation that one of my favorite onscreen Marvel villains has made the jump from Netflix and likely will be the foil for Maya as in canon, and he has! 

Yelena was adorable, hilarious, and heartbreaking all at once in this episode. I'm so happy she's here; she was my favorite part of Black Widow. I loved her connection with Kate. Kate, Maya, and now Yelena definitely make the show for me. 

Quote

Honestly, I'd rather a reveal make sense than surprise me. 

Agreed. I'm rarely surprised on television and the more a show TRIES to surprise me at the expense of the plot just be "shocking and edgy", the more annoyed I get. Eleanor being the "secret" villain hidden from Kate until now has the most impact on Kate. It gives her the most to work with. That's the important thing for me.

Overall, I remain glad I watched this show when I almost didn't (Hawkeye/Renner aren't favorites of mine). I decided to watch for Kate and I don't regret it. 

[Spartan Girl]

42 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

Honestly, I'd rather a reveal make sense than surprise me. I vastly prefer this to, say, Gossip Girl changing their original "villain" reveal to a nonsensical one because too many people guessed their original plan. Audiences are savvy. We pick stuff apart; we look for plot clues and character motivations. I'd rather our work be rewarded with a "predictable" reveal than have something come out of left field to shock us. What matters to me here is how this affects Kate.

I was just referring to the fact that all of the MCU D+ show villains so far have all been female characters. But you’re right, this plot twist feels more organic and actually makes sense, unlike the mess in TFAWS.

[cambridgeguy]

I'm stunned Yelena didn't tail Kate after their girl's night or at least plant a bug on her, but apparently she really does want to see NYC before taking out Clint. 

[Jediknight]

8 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

I'm stunned Yelena didn't tail Kate after their girl's night or at least plant a bug on her, but apparently she really does want to see NYC before taking out Clint. 

And she might see it as an invasion of Kate's privacy.  She hates Clint, but not Kate.  She likes Kate, and Kate saved a dog, so Yelena ain't gonna betray her "trust".

Kingpin is here!  Hopefully Matt pops up to help Clint, Kate, Grills, and Yelena (after she inevitably joins their side).

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Loved Yelena and Kate interacting though. Who doesn’t love mac and cheese?

With hot sauce! I should try that.

And damn, but Yelena was looking stylish. I have this image of her reading American magazines to see what's popular, either to fit in or just because she wants to develop her own look. Really enjoyed her interacting with Kate, who thankfully wasn't swayed by the insistence that Clint's a bad guy.

No lie, I teared up when Clint was at the memorial plaque 'talking' to Natasha. All he wanted when Thanos was dead and everything was over was to live a life that would honor her, but shit keeps happening to prevent him from doing that. He at least knows Yelena's name, since when Kate mentioned her in the Uber (and how adorable was it that she thought to call an Uber to pick them up?) he was aware that Nat had a sister. I wonder what he thinks now, why Yelena wants to kill him. If anything, I'd think the idea that he killed his best friend would hurt him more than anything Maya could do, because in some ways Nat is still with him, even if as a ghost.

I guess it also means that Val was just the broker, not necessarily putting together her own team. I had a hard time seeing Yelena getting along with John Walker, anyway. Because he's a poser.

One more episode, and things aren't looking too good for Kazi either. Maya had clearly never wondered before why he wasn't at the meeting where her father was killed, since he seemed taken aback when she asked where he was. A set up for her own show, probably, though as others have said she's pretty low tier on the list of things I'm interested in. Alaqua Cox is doing what she can with what she's been given, but I was here for Clint and Kate first, and now Yelena.

[paigow]

Fisk decides to purge his employees using Ronin... Kazi rats out his bros... Ronin now has a mole that can find Fisk... but never kills Fisk... implying that Ronin was a fraud -i.e. Fisk WAS his new master / lord  

[tv echo]

Yay - Yelena! And Yelena and Kate sharing a scene together! 

Hailee Steinfeld reminds me a lot of a young Megan Follows.

I love Yelena ("Okay. That's a lie also." LOL) However, it's a bit hypocritical for Yelena to be condemning Clint for his past killings when she's killed a lot of people herself. She probably wouldn't even care if she didn't think that he killed her sister.

Nice plaque honoring the original six Avengers who fought in the 2012 Battle of New York. Interesting order in which their names are listed (Steve, Tony, Thor, Bruce, Natasha, Clint). I guess that's why it's not Stark: The Musical. Poor Clint is always last.

Another hint that Clint's wife Laura has a not-so-clean past herself (when she said something about how she, more than anyone, can understand).

Wow, Clint's Ronin is really badass. Clint lets Maya live, he tells her that her boss wanted her father killed, and then she still tries to kill him? Oh, Kazi was the informant. Yeah, I'm also having trouble warming up to Maya.

I'm a bit confused as to the hiring order for Yelena to assassinate Clint. I thought Valentina was the one who targeted Clint and aimed Yelena at him? Now we're learning that Kate's mother Eleanor was the one to hire Yelena to kill Clint? But why? If I understand correctly, Eleanor Bishop contracted with Kingpin to assassinate Clint. Kingpin subcontracted the work to Valentina, and she ordered Yelena to kill Clint? Is that right? 

Edited December 15, 2021 by tv echo

[SeanC]

31 minutes ago, paigow said:

implying that Ronin was a fraud -i.e. Fisk WAS his new master / lord  

No, that just means the Kingpin is a hard man to get at.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

14 hours ago, tv echo said:

Another hint that Clint's wife Laura has a not-so-clean past herself (when she said something about how she, more than anyone, can understand).

He specifically mentioned the watch too, that it had been found, and Laura says something like, But we've been so careful. Even if his family's existence was just off the books, there would have to be people who want to get to Clint through them, and that's what got him extra pissed at Maya.

 

14 hours ago, tv echo said:

I love Yelena ("Okay. That's a lie also." LOL) However, it's a bit hypocritical for Yelena to be condemning Clint for his past killings when she's killed a lot of people herself. She probably wouldn't even care if she didn't think that he killed her sister.

Notice the parallel: Clint became Ronin because his family was collateral damage of the Snap. During the scene in Kate's apartment, Kate tells Yelena that when you're doing the hero thing, there's probably always going to be collateral damage, casualties that can't be prevented. "He saved the world." "No. My sister saved the world. Was she collateral damage?" You're not wrong in saying she wouldn't care if it wasn't about Natasha, but I also think Yelena isn't really judging Clint because of what Ronin did. Unlike Maya, she's not interested in Ronin, she wants the guy who was behind the mask. We find out here that she probably never saw her sister again, since when she was Blipped back into existence she didn't know Natasha had died on Vormir. You have to wonder if she had to arrange for Nat's headstone herself, and now that's all she has instead of being able to make new memories.  Clint has that memorial plaque and Yelena has what likely marks an unoccupied grave, and they'd both rather have Nat. It's sadly poetic.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Cobalt Stargazer

[dwmarch]

25 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, that just means the Kingpin is a hard man to get at.

Mild spoilers for Daredevil for any who have not seen it:

Spoiler

Daredevil showed situations several times where characters ended up working for Wilson Fisk without even knowing they were doing it. He would have one or two lackeys inside of an organization (the NYPD, the FBI) and he would pull strings that way. So it's possible he actually did manage to gain temporary control over the Ronin via this kind of social engineering but once Clint figured it out he decided it was better to bury the whole thing.

Only one episode left? This has been my favorite Disney+ series so far although Loki is a close second.

[Kate47]

I love that Nat was a Black Widow,  part of a sisterhood of assassins with countless cover stories, and yet she only ever truly had one sister. Clint knows immediately that it's Yelena, and it's a great layer to their friendship and Nat's backstory.

[arc]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Clint lets Maya live, he tells her that her boss wanted her father killed, and then she still tries to kill him?

Clint can say he and Maya are “weapons”, but I would never say that absolves him of personal responsibility. One of his big things this whole show has been about defying the kill order when it came to Nat. And that was an order! His kills as Ronin were self directed. Whoever informed the Ronin was giving a suggestion. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

32 minutes ago, arc said:

Clint can say he and Maya are “weapons”, but I would never say that absolves him of personal responsibility. One of his big things this whole show has been about defying the kill order when it came to Nat. And that was an order! His kills as Ronin were self directed. Whoever informed the Ronin was giving a suggestion. 

I don't know, though. Yeah, maybe it was just suggestions and Clint/Ronin did the killing, but he told Kate in the last episode that he 'couldn't take the shot' on Natasha because he felt like she wanted out of the situation she was in. Maya's father was set up, so he either got greedy or Kingpin just wanted him out of the way because of Reasons, and Kazi was in on it despite his friendship with Maya. It's been said, but if Barton was just a killer, Fury or Coulson or whoever gave him those orders would have sent someone else, because his decision to spare Nat was okayed in the end. You could even argue that Val "suggested" to Yelena that Clint needed to be killed, but that doesn't change that it was manipulation, that Yelena was lied to. Either the Countess is tied in with Fisk as much as Eleanor is, or she does this kind of thing for money.

[Fool to cry]

Thank God noone was using the bathroom when Yelena re-appeared!

The Black Widow movie was already been in pre-production when Endgame was being filmed so the basic story about Natasha and her sister had to have been in place. So it's not inconceivable Scarjo was using the loss of Yelena as a basis for her performance.

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Fool to cry

[thuganomics85]

Okay, is it too early to declare that Yelena is not only probably my favorite out of the new MCU blood, but might already be joining my overall favorites as well?  Because despite just seeing her in one film and one full episode here, I'm already loving her so much.  Florence Pugh is just a dynamic presence, and Yelena's personality just gives the universe a chaotic energy that I haven't quite seen from anyone else in the MCU.  I'm just already trying to picture the various interactions she can have with other characters and how amazing they would be (for some reason, I really think Yelena and Bucky playing off one another would be a hoot and a half.)

So, it looks like Yelena was also a victim of the "Blip"/Snap, which would definitely explain why she is so gung-ho to take out Clint, since she is under the impression he is somehow responsible for her death and this revelation is still raw.  Of course, even without knowing what really happened, if Yelena really thought about it, she'd probably have to acknowledge he is being hypocritical about holding his murder streak over him, considering her own violent past.  But she is still young (can't remember what her age is suppose to be), so I can see why she is going all in here.  But, I do wonder if Kate's words will effect her going forward.  The Yelena/Kate scene was by far the highlight here and both Pugh and Hailee Steinfeld's chemistry definitely makes me hope we will be getting a partnership between these two characters going forward.

Looks like they may have already dealt with Maya's mission to take out "Ronin", and I'm guessing her remaining storyline will be setting her up for the spin-off I heard she is suppose to be in.  Instead, her focus will on who tipped off Ronin, which sounds it might have been Kazi and her boss, the "Big Man" (more on him later!)

While it didn't look like he killed anyone this time, Clint's brief reprisal as Ronin definitely showed how dangerous he can be.

The Tracksuit Mafia goons continue to be most relatable henchmen in the MCU by declaring their love for the Christmas classic "Christmas in Hollis" by Run D.M.C.

I guess they are waiting for Hawkeye and Kate's new suit reveals for the finale!

Jack has been arrested, but it looks like Eleanor really is in league with the villains and even put out the hit on Clint.  And we finally discover who the Big Man is and yup, it's Kingpin time!  Only see him through a blurry photo right now, but Vincent D'Onofrio was named in the credits, so Fisk is back, baby!  This should be good!

[calliope1975]

5 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I'm stunned Yelena didn't tail Kate after their girl's night or at least plant a bug on her, but apparently she really does want to see NYC before taking out Clint. 

Yelena's got tourist attractions to see. She can multi-task an assassination AND visit Top of The Rock.

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I guess it also means that Val was just the broker, not necessarily putting together her own team. I had a hard time seeing Yelena getting along with John Walker, anyway. Because he's a poser.
 

And now I really, really want this interaction to happen. 

[wlk68]

I have no idea how they're going to wrap everything up with just one episode left. There's so much.  

[Dandesun]

Maya's father, according to Kazi, 'always put the men first' which suggests to me that he was beloved by those that were lower level. I'm going to speculate that this is not something that Kingpin wants in the long run because when it comes down to it, his people need to be loyal to HIM and not his lieutenants. However, using Ronin to eliminate a beloved figure means Kingpin can use that anger to his advantage.

Kingpin is a chess player and has no problem sacrificing others for his gain.

Now then... did I say "Oh My God" out loud at the end and scare my cats a bit this morning? Yes. Yes I did. Speculation is one thing but there's really something to be said for this one to actually be true. This really goes a long way to set up up Echo's mini. Well done on that score.

This did shift me from really fucking wanting Charlie Cox' Daredevil to show up to really fucking needing it. To be fair, I'm trying my best to mitigate expectations because I don't think it fits in with this particular show as it stands. So, yeah... but Kingpin's appearance (along with Feige's comments) I feel assures us that Matt Murdock will be appearing in one of these Disney+ shows and I love that.

Yelena is terrific. I'm not sure there's much time for her and Clint to straighten things out completely but I really need for them to be able to talk. Clint needs to tell her what happened. Yelena needs to know. And holy crap did I love the beginning with Yelena getting snapped and then back and the way that played out. Very cool.

Really loving this series.

[Morrigan2575]

Well, color me shocked. I honestly did not expect the Kingpin reveal until the last episode...definitely not until after 12/17 😁

So, Yelena is there to kill Clint because of Eleanor and Kingpin? I get Kingpin, as many have speculated Kingpin used Ronin to kill Maya's dad. I'm curious as to Eleanor. I also suspected she was shady. I'm pretty sure she's behind the shell company and set Jack up to take the fall.

I have to say I was a bit annoyed that in an episode called Ronin, Clinton had the least amount of story/screentime. I get that Marvel is using this to setup 3 future characters (Yelena, Kate and Maya) for at least 2 shows and maybe a movie but, come on give the guy sometime. I did love his "talk" with Nat, got a little misty during that scene.

9 hours ago, Genus said:

Does anyone have any idea who the big guy they keep mentioning is? 

Kingpin, yeah?

9 hours ago, arc said:

was already enjoying the episode a lot and then the show dropped one of the only modern Christmas songs I like (Run-DMC's "Christmas in Hollis")

That was a brilliant use of music, still a great song, I loved Run-DMC growing up.

[Minneapple]

Yelena/Kate is my new favorite interaction. I love it. I really do hope we see them together in a future project. Actually I want to see them doing touristy stuff around New York together, like walking on the Brooklyn Bridge and then going for pizza at Grimaldi's.

I suspected Eleanor was a bad guy. I knew it the minute Kate told her about the shell company.

[SnarkShark]

End of last episode I built what I thought was a huge laundry list of things I thought they'd need to resolve, and would never have time to, in two episodes, and they instead did it in one, with enough padding the episode actually seemed a bit slow.

 

I mean revealing Maya's dad was setup by the Boss, convincing her, convincing Yelena maybe not to kill Clint, outting Kate's mom, and physically revealing Kingpin SEEMED like it should have taken three episodes or so, but instead happens in one, with extra time for Clint to speak to a plaque, Kate to get lied to by her Mom, Grillz and Pizza Dog to get multiple scenes, and a cab ride.

 

And my guess that Clint DID kill her Dad and it wasn't some imposter proved true.  I outright called it that Ronin got tipped off/manipulated to go there.  It was the best way to do this. This would be FAR to wimpy if he miraculously didn't kill this one arbitrary person.

 

Also, Clint's phone call with the wife all but confirmed she's an ex-spy.

[tennisgurl]

Your a mean one, Mr. Fisk...

Even being pretty sure that it was coming, I still squeeled when we saw the Kingpin in that picture with Eleanor. Yes we saw both reveals coming, but only because it was really well set up and foreshadowed. Its a shock, but its not really about the shock and more about Kate's reaction to her moms betrayal and officially bringing Kingpin (and possibly the rest of the Netflix wing of the MCU) officially into cannon, which are both great developments. Like others have said, too many shows will swerve at the last minute with their big reveals when fans put things together too fast or will deliberately try to shock up with a twist that's utter nonsense, I will take a twist that I saw coming because it makes sense any day. Now can we get Daredevil in here soon? 

I just adore Yelena, I love her mix of badass assassin and lovable chaotic goofball, she and Kate had such instant chemistry. I cant wait for them to team up when this whole mess is sorted out, they could be next generation Clint and Natasha. Even down to Kate not taking a shot when she looked at Yelena when they first met and being on opposite sides at first. Their conversation was so great, it kept going from funny to sweet to heartbreaking, Yelena is just the gift that keeps on giving. We got confirmation that Yelena was a victim of the snap, which is something that I have suspected since Black Widow, and I just feel so bad for her. One second she's planning her happy life with her long lost sister, then five years have passed and her sister is dead, so soon after they found each other again. The part where she asked if her sister was "collateral damage" really hurt, and all of this does certainly add more to Natasha giving her life to reverse the snap. She wanted to bring her sister back, even if she had to die. Then we get back to the hilarity. "You recently walked into traffic to save a dog. Which I'll admit is pretty cool, you got a few points from me on that." 

If Yelena wasn't so blinded by grief, she would have probably thought more on what Kate said about asking questions regarding who told her Clint killed Natasha. It fits into the theme of the show though, how people handle grief and how it can inspire them or take them down a dark path. 

That transition of Yelena disappearing in the Snap and then reappearing was just *chefs kiss*.

The plaque for the original Avengers was a nice touch, even if it was followed by a serious case of the misty eyes. Oh Clint, he misses Natasha so much, I really do love how much the show is focusing on their friendship and what Natasha meant to people. We even get confirmation that Clint knew about Yelena, even if they never met, which I had wondered about. Ronin really is a massive badass and his outfit is super cool, even if Clint used it for very non heroic purposes. It looks like there is more to Maya story then her father being killed by Clint, which did happen, but there seems to be more to the story. I was hoping to keep Kazi around for the spin-off, he is just so pretty, but its not looking good if he was involved in her dads death. Of course I am guessing that it was really the Kingpin who is pulling the strings, who wanted William dead for some reason. Kazi made it sound like he was quite beloved by their mooks, did he worry that they were more loyal to William then to him? That he was becoming a threat to his power? No matter what, sounds like he is going to be in her crosshairs soon, and just in time for a spinoff. 

I know that the tracksuit mafia are criminals, but I really hope most of them make it, they're just too likable to die. Who can be mad at someone with such good taste in Christmas music?

Don't worry Kate, having evil relatives is a time honored tradition of superheroes, this is just a an inevitable part of your origin story. So were Eleanor and Jack in it together and she threw him under the bus to keep herself safe, or did she really frame him and he was only minorly involved in whatever Eleanor is up to? So much to answer in just one episode. 

[calliope1975]

I love Yelena so much and would also like to eat mac and cheese with her. I hope she got to visit all of NY's best tourist spots.

Kingpin's back baby! So glad they kept D'Onofrio even if all we got was a blurry picture.

Oh Kazi, you're kinda cute, but I don't think you'll be alive at the end of this.

And poor Clint. I know he (and everyone everywhere) would rather have Natasha instead of you, but she was always going to win that fight on Vormir if she wanted. I mourn her loss but respect her sacrifice.

I really like how some of the D+ shows are showing us what happened when people reappeared after the Snap (sorry, I just can't get on board with Blip). Monica in the hospital in WV and Yelena here in bathroom. And now I really want to see Wong rounding up all the snapped Avengers, with a quick, hey you're back, don't freak out, it's been 5 years, and also we need to go kick this guy's ass right now. Be ready to step through the portal when it appears. Cool? Cool.

[SnarkShark]

28 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

So, Yelena is there to kill Clint because of Eleanor and Kingpin? I get Kingpin, as many have speculated Kingpin used Ronin to kill Maya's dad. I'm curious as to Eleanor. I also suspected she was shady. I'm pretty sure she's behind the shell company and set Jack up to take the fall.

She clearly runs those illegal auctions.  Its not clear if she normally operates as competition to Kingpin, ally, or underling.  We can't assume here, because the Track Suit raid on the auction was clearly unauthorized.  It was Maya going rogue.

Her meeting with Kingpin doesn't necessarily mean he had part in Yelena being there. That still could have been Val, on the other end of that phone call last week, and she's meeting Kingpin now because she's learned more of what Kate has been up to and besides framing her own fiance, maybe this is pressure to get Kingpin to strong arm the Track Suits to stay away from Kate.

Edited December 15, 2021 by SnarkShark

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

Her meeting with Kingpin doesn't necessarily mean he had part in Yelena being there. That still could have been Val, on the other end of that phone call last week, and she's meeting Kingpin now because she's learned more of what Kate has been up to and besides framing her own fiance, maybe this is pressure to get Kingpin to strong arm the Track Suits to stay away from Kate.

True, it could be Eleanor to Val, or could be Eleanor to Kingpin to Val or it's even possible they're ignoring that end credits scene and creating a new storyline of just Eleanor to Kingpin and no Val.

We only have 1 episode left so I have no idea what's going to happen with any of this but, I feel like this will be another mission on D+ finales (IMO, every show has failed to stick the landing).

Edited December 15, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[SnarkShark]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

If Yelena wasn't so blinded by grief, she would have probably thought more on what Kate said about asking questions regarding who told her Clint killed Natasha

The final sequence implied she DID exactly that.

It is unclear if she totally believes Clint is innocent, or if she even cares since she has a contract, but she wasn't following Eleanor Bishop by accident.  Even if let's say... Val... dispatched her she clearly knew where the initial request came from.  I know her fans may not want to admit it, but in a sense she was toying with Kate when she met her.  At the same time though, perhaps feeling her out to get a sense of Kate's own involvement. 

But Kate is an idealist, and a strangely compelling and convincing one.  Her idealism totally worked on Clint, which is why I think to some extent it may have actually worked on Yelena.  

If it was just Eleanor being a criminal, Yelena probably wouldn't have texted Kate.  But the link to Kingpin clearly rang her alarm bell.  She has to ask herself why a man who can't want good things for Ronin is linked to the person who put the hit on Clint. It has to make her doubt her evaluation of him, even if she clearly realized Clint was Ronin the whole time.   Really, at this point her main quandary might simply be if she still thinks the contract is valid regardless.

7 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

True, it could be Eleanor to Val, or could be Eleanor to Kingpin to Val or it's even possible they're ignoring that end credits scene and creating a new storyline of just Eleanor to Kingpin and no Val.

We only have 1 episode left so I have no idea what's going to happen with any of this but, I feel like this will be another mission on D+ finales (IMO, every show has failed to stick the landing).

I might debate you on Wandavision a bit, which I think mostly suffered from expectations people put on it for reveals it never intended, but I'd definitely debate you on Loki, which did a lot of great stuff at the end, even if some thought Not-Kang monologing a lot wasn't their cup of tea. The VERY end made it worth it.

Edited December 16, 2021 by SnarkShark

[arc]

38 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I suspected Eleanor was a bad guy. I knew it the minute Kate told her about the shell company.

The show did a good job of not going heavy on foreshadowing music there. That left that conversation unsettlingly ambiguous rather than “OMG Kate, how can you not notice your mom is basically twirling her metaphorical mustache at you???”

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

I'm going to speculate that this is not something that Kingpin wants in the long run because when it comes down to it, his people need to be loyal to HIM and not his lieutenants.

Given a sufficiently loyal and unambitious lieutenant, that would be incredibly self-sabotaging of the Kingpin. Organizations with one powerful leader and a host of less effective middle managers are not as effective as those with a good leader who can trust to delegate down the organizational pyramid.

[swanpride]

So...colour me not surprised regarding the mother. I called it early. 

The picture of Kingpin was so blurry, I actually waited through the end-credits to check if it was the same actor.

Yelena is great, certainly the best thing which came out of the (otherwise aggravating) Black Widow movie. The only thing I didn't quite get was why Kate didn't mention the "best shot is the one he didn't take" conversation with Clint. But otherwise, great conversation, and I really love how Yelena manages to be such a different character from Natasha. Though I am pretty sure she is currently headed for a certain team up of "grey" ti villainous characters, I doubt it will stay that way. 

Also I am wondering if the happiness of the "adoption" of the other black Widow lasted...I mean, if the parents of the child were snapped, that might cause a problem right? But I guess she was younger than five years...right? 

Not quite as exciting as the other set-ups for the finales so far, but that might be a good thing...less danger of a let-down. 

 

 

[arc]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

The only thing I didn't quite get was why Kate didn't mention the "best shot is the one he didn't take" conversation with Clint.

As perceptive as Kate is, she maaaybe could have made an informed guess that Yelena already knew that story. Cause I think Nat woulda told her.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, arc said:

Given a sufficiently loyal and unambitious lieutenant, that would be incredibly self-sabotaging of the Kingpin. Organizations with one powerful leader and a host of less effective middle managers are not as effective as those with a good leader who can trust to delegate down the organizational pyramid.

Didn't Clint ask Kazi why he wasn't higher on the food chain than Maya, though? I was under the impression (until this episode where it turned out Kazi ratted out Maya's dad) that he was subordinate to her by choice, that he could have been in charge of the TM instead but deferred to her leadership.

[vb68]

2 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I love Yelena so much and would also like to eat mac and cheese with her.

It didn't hit me until I saw your post, and I wanna go back and check, but I'm sure the mac and cheese is an actual callback for Yelena at the very beginning of Black Widow when the family was getting ready and sitting down for dinner. I'm sure  little Yelena said she'd really just like to eat mac and cheese.  We never really outgrow the food we loved as kids.

Now I want a scene of her walking around NYC humming American Pie. 😄

Edited December 15, 2021 by vb68

[calliope1975]

Just now, vb68 said:

but I'm sure the mac and cheese is an actual callback for Yelena at the very beginning of Black Widow when the family was getting ready and sitting down for dinner.

Yep, it is. Peeps are already showing side by side pics on Twitter. I didn't catch that so that's very cool.

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Also I am wondering if the happiness of the "adoption" of the other black Widow lasted...I mean, if the parents of the child were snapped, that might cause a problem right? But I guess she was younger than five years...right? 

That's a far bigger issue that the post Endgame series and movies are happy to mostly ignore, along with the fact that a significant number of people had to have lost spouses/significant others, only to subsequently remarry in the interim.  Relationship counselors have no doubt seen a huge spike in patients.

2 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

If Yelena wasn't so blinded by grief, she would have probably thought more on what Kate said about asking questions regarding who told her Clint killed Natasha

Which begs the question of which details about Vormir are out there.  Clint was the only survivor and the unsnapped Avengers were the only ones he told.  Would they have really told the general public the exact details beyond "she made a heroic sacrifice to save the universe"?

[FnkyChkn34]

7 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Only one episode left? This has been my favorite Disney+ series so far although Loki is a close second.

WandaVision is my second, but I agree that this one has been my favorite!!

I tried to read all of the comments but I apologize if I missed it - Julia Louis-Dreyfus (Val, is her name?) is Kate's aunt, right?  I mean... she's involved somehow.  She has to be.  And I don't recall Kate ever naming her aunt, just that "she's in Florida."  

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

WandaVision is my second, but I agree that this one has been my favorite!!

I tried to read all of the comments but I apologize if I missed it - Julia Louis-Dreyfus (Val, is her name?) is Kate's aunt, right?  I mean... she's involved somehow.  She has to be.  And I don't recall Kate ever naming her aunt, just that "she's in Florida."  

Oh wow, I never thought of that. Interesting.

[wlk68]

I was somewhat surprised to hear that Yelena had actually been hired to kill Clint. I got the impression that all Val was there to do was tell her who killed her sister and turn her loose. That it was all about revenge for Yelena. 

[FnkyChkn34]

13 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh wow, I never thought of that. Interesting.

Obviously, I could easily be wrong, LOL.  But that's my guess for now! 😉

[Sakura12]

Yelena and Kate were great together. I love that Yelena has this innocence about her while also being a hardend killer. I think Kate did get Yelena to think about who hired her, that's why she gave the info about her mom to Kate. She was paying her back.

So Nat told Clint about Yelena, that does make sense and shows how close they were. Clint can use her name like she used Kate Bishop.

And finally Kingpin. I knew about it so it wasn't that big of a surprise for me. I figured Eleanor was bad, I wonder how involved she is with Kingpin. 

I wonder if Clint's wife is hiding from Kingpin. They seemed more worried about the Big Guy being involved. She may have worked for him or had him arrested at some point. 

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I tried to read all of the comments but I apologize if I missed it - Julia Louis-Dreyfus (Val, is her name?) is Kate's aunt, right?  I mean... she's involved somehow.  She has to be.  And I don't recall Kate ever naming her aunt, just that "she's in Florida."  

Not sure if her name is spoken, but visual clues give her name as Moira Brandon.  Moira Brandon was a minor character who interacted with Hawkeye in the comic books.

I wonder if talking about being a weapon is a signal that Clint has a coming story arc of becoming more than a weapon, becoming a leader.  (See: West Coast Avengers.)  A leader full of self-doubt about past mistakes and his ability to lead seems like a writer's dream for who they would want to place in charge of a team.

[Abra]

Black Widow is the only MCU movie I haven't watched because I am so very sick of Scarlett Johansson, but if Yelena is as fun in that movie as she was in this episode, I may decide to give it a try someday. I need the Kate and Yelena show to go in the MCU/D+ pipeline immediately, thank you.

Kudos to the multiple people on this forum who called Eleanor Bishop being a bad guy, because I wasn't seeing it until the moment Kate told her about Sloan and the money laundering. Now I wonder how much Jack/Jacques is involved in Eleanor's evil deeds, or if she's manipulating him too (although he's clearly still a bad guy).

I hope we get to find out what Laura Barton's past is next episode, because they were laying down some heavy hints that she has A Past, that requires Certain Skills. 

I can't help but feel that a lot of stuff is going to be left open-ended by the end of the next episode, and I would be okay with that if I knew that a second season were coming or that characters I have grown fond of (Grills, Lucky, etc.) were going to appear in future MCU projects.

Do we have any idea why the Rolex is so special?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Which begs the question of which details about Vormir are out there.  Clint was the only survivor and the unsnapped Avengers were the only ones he told.  Would they have really told the general public the exact details beyond "she made a heroic sacrifice to save the universe"?

Probably no exact details. Even after the Snap, I wouldn't think it would be possible to explain the return of all those people in a way the general public could understand. Even just in this episode when Yelena reappeared, the other Widow seemed pretty shocked when she exited the bathroom, and Yelena herself had no idea of what had happened. I said in the thread for Black Widow that it was unlikely she was in the loop enough to know how the Soul Stone was acquired and all that, and Val probably wouldn't have told her the truth even if she'd known it. We don't even know if Barton is in touch with the ones who are left (Sam, Rhodey, Wanda, etc) so it's hard to say what the everyday citizens know. It just seems unlikely that the real story would be out there.