TV Tropes: Love 'em or Loathe 'em

[DrSpaceman73]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 4:07 AM, Danielg342 said:

(If there have been stories of a woman heavily pursuing a man who's not interested, only for her to wear him down and ultimately get together, I either haven't seen them or am blanking on them. But I imagine there aren't many examples.)

Bossom Buddies.  Peter Scolari's character Henry and Amy. 

You can make an argument for 16 Candles, she ends up with the hot guy, though its not so much her wearing him down as it seems he finds out she is interested in him and thinks "Oh, sure, she is different than my girlfriend, I'll go out with her".  He never says that but its the impression you get from it all. 

Louis CK did an episode that sort of addresses this as well in one of his shows.  An overweight girl he doesn't find attractive keeps asking him out and he finally agrees to go, I think......I don't recall the specifics.  But they don't really end up as a couple.  They use it more to point out he goes for women out of his league in terms of looks and point out how the two of them are more on par in that department despite his seeming to think he can do "better" in terms of physical beauty. 

Charlie eventually dates Rose on Two and a half men, but I hesitate to use that show as a prime example of anything in terms of educated writing. 

But there aren't a lot. 

[DrSpaceman73]

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 3:15 AM, Danielg342 said:

All these love tropes...where's the one about a guy and a girl who pursued each other only to realize they're just better off as friends? I doubt Hollywood has ever told that story except when one of the characters is the Love Interest of the Week.

That is the exact premise of Jerry and Elaine on Seinfeld. 

[Danielg342]

2 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

That is the exact premise of Jerry and Elaine on Seinfeld. 

Jerry and Elaine actually dated, though, before breaking up (before the series) and realizing they were better as friends.

I haven't seen a Hollywood example of a man and a woman (who are both leads) that, after or even during their first date, they resolve to be just friends and stay that way for the duration of the series- without ever thinking of "trying again".

Criminal Minds had a great chance to do that with JJ and Reid, two regular characters who had a date early in S1 but never went out romantically ever again. They built one of the greatest platonic relationships I've ever seen on a Hollywood screen...and then the S14 finale happened.

*sigh*

 

[Raja]

10 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Jerry and Elaine actually dated, though, before breaking up (before the series) and realizing they were better as friends.

I haven't seen a Hollywood example of a man and a woman (who are both leads) that, after or even during their first date, they resolve to be just friends and stay that way for the duration of the series- without ever thinking of "trying again".

Criminal Minds had a great chance to do that with JJ and Reid, two regular characters who had a date early in S1 but never went out romantically ever again. They built one of the greatest platonic relationships I've ever seen on a Hollywood screen...and then the S14 finale happened.

*sigh*

 

I remember on Hunter as part of a plot they let out that Rick and Dee Dee did go for it but dropped back into work partners. I think they revisited it in one of the Hunter reunion TV movies.

[merylinkid]

Warehouse 13 sob.   They were doing so well at keeping the 2 leads from being a couple.   Then in the very last episode had them get together.   ICK.

[Shannon L.]

I'm getting tired of the character who always has something bad happen to them.  They have an estranged parent, then the parent they are close with dies, then the man or woman they are in love with dies or has to leave for some dramatic reason, then they think they find love only to discover that the love interest is only getting close to them so they can use them for something.......I mean, I know that there are unlucky people in life, but on tv, after a while, it gets to be a bit much--mostly because the amount of drama written into it.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Shannon L. said:

I'm getting tired of the character who always has something bad happen to them

Hello, I would like to introduce you to Dr. Claire Browne from The Good Doctor.

Her 'If it wasn't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all" life  on that show is one of the many reasons I've decided to bail on it.

Edited April 12, 2020 by DearEvette

[Shannon L.]

21 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Hello, I would like to introduce you to Dr. Claire Browne from The Good Doctor.

Her 'If it wasn't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all" life  on that show is one of the many reasons I've decided to bail on it.

Yes!  I was thinking about that after the season finale, but what finally prompted me to write this was the addition of Iram's story in Blacklist.  Characters on two different shows are going through this kind of bad luck and it's getting old.  Especially since the characters themselves are really nice.  All I could think after Blacklist was "Seriously?  Another one?"

Edited April 12, 2020 by Shannon L.

[Spartan Girl]

I'm beyond sick of the idiot parents in denial that help their children get away with any crime. Its why I have ZERO interest in the Defending Jacob series.. The part in the trailer where JK Simmons tells Chris Evans he "can either be a good man or a good father"? I nearly had a rage stroke. Being a good father IS being a good man: you not only teach your kid right from wrong, you also teach them to FACE THE CONSEQUENCES WHEN THEY DO  SOMETHING WRONG.

[DoctorAtomic]

6 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Warehouse 13 sob.   They were doing so well at keeping the 2 leads from being a couple.   Then in the very last episode had them get together.   ICK.

Ugh. Plus it was ridiculously hamfisted and thrown in there at the expense of the rest of the character's stories. 

They literally had an episode where their minds were wiped and before it happened they got into bed with one another because they knew when they 'woke up' that something would be very wrong because of that. Which was brilliant.

I'm not pro Mulder/Scully, but you can at least make a reasonable case there. W13 they just dumped it on. 

In a similar note, Eureka got the leads paired up in a very Eureka way, which I did like. 

[ABay]

Thirding the loathing of the Warehouse 13 finale for ruining a great partnership.

[Stats Queen]

8 minutes ago, ABay said:

Thirding the loathing of the Warehouse 13 finale for ruining a great partnership.

I fourth that. 
 

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

In a similar note, Eureka got the leads paired up in a very Eureka way, which I did like. 

I agree, and it was where the characters were heading from the beginning.

[DoctorAtomic]

Carter was clearly attracted to her from the get go, but I don't know that she was really reciprocating. She clearly respected him and his abilities -ice funnel of death- and was being presented as a nice role model for the daughter. 

I think once they went back in time, she grew more romantically attracted to him. He was really shouldering the burden of keeping everyone focused. But I could buy that such a traumatic event would be something that helped her take stock. 

That was a great fucking show. It knew what it was, it wasn't pretending to be A Show, and all the actors looked like they were having a blast. 

[DearEvette]

4 hours ago, Stats Queen said:

 

5 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

In a similar note, Eureka got the leads paired up in a very Eureka way, which I did like. 

I agree, and it was where the characters were heading from the beginning.

Agreed.  Also I like how cheekily Eureka managed to give their main couple their fated ending promised in the alterna faux-future episode from season one.

[kathyk2]

12 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Warehouse 13 sob.   They were doing so well at keeping the 2 leads from being a couple.   Then in the very last episode had them get together.   ICK.

Myka claiming she was in love with Pete was a retcon of the Season 2 finale when Myka stated she thought of Pete as a brother. They never went on a date so I'm claiming it never happened.

[ratgirlagogo]

On 4/12/2020 at 9:31 AM, Shannon L. said:

I'm getting tired of the character who always has something bad happen to them.  

This was every character on Torturewood, ahem, I mean Torchwood.

[paulvdb]

On 2/24/2020 at 9:45 AM, Annber03 said:

(If there have been stories of a woman heavily pursuing a man who's not interested, only for her to wear him down and ultimately get together, I either haven't seen them or am blanking on them. But I imagine there aren't many examples.)

Jessica Marie Garcia seems to specialize in that. I've seen her in three roles and two of them did just that. First on Liv and Maddie and later on On My Block.

[topanga]

On 2/24/2020 at 3:45 AM, Annber03 said:

That, and generally, in the cases where a woman is seen intensely pursuing a guy who's not into her, she's often treated as a crazy stalker who's desperate for love, and is mocked for not getting that the guy's not interested. Quite a drastic contrast to the reverse, indeed. 

(If there have been stories of a woman heavily pursuing a man who's not interested, only for her to wear him down and ultimately get together, I either haven't seen them or am blanking on them. But I imagine there aren't many examples.)

Great points. I've seen this trope happen a lot in comedies. Interestingly, it's often a black female character who's crazily stalking a male character that she calls "her man." Examples: Amen, The Parkers, The Proud Family (Disney cartoon), The Unicorn. When it's the reverse, the male character is not considered crazy--just smitten and "in love:" e.g. Moesha, Family Matters, Sister Sister.

[Luckylyn]

7 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

This was every character on Torturewood, ahem, I mean Torchwood.

Except Gwen.   Everyone suffers and dies.  Jack suffers forever but Gwen gets a happy ending.  Am I bitter?  Yup.  

[tennisgurl]

I generally hate most love triangles with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns, especially when they just keep going on and on way past the point when anyone could possibly care. However, I do enjoy when, while the person at the central of the love triangle (usually the main character) is dithering on about over who to end up with, the two sides of the triangle go from rivals to friends, to the point where they might end up both backing out of the triangle because they dont want to see their friend get hurt. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by tennisgurl

[DoctorAtomic]

The long triangle sounds like a postmodern con. 

'We went to the Golden Horseshoe and ran the long triangle. Jeannie just dropped the burner in the mark's bag using the hat, and I just stayed at the bar playing video poker downing rum and cokes like a motherfucker while I texted them the location on the floor.' 

[DrSpaceman73]

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 10:10 PM, Danielg342 said:

Jerry and Elaine actually dated, though, before breaking up (before the series) and realizing they were better as friends.

I haven't seen a Hollywood example of a man and a woman (who are both leads) that, after or even during their first date, they resolve to be just friends and stay that way for the duration of the series- without ever thinking of "trying again".

Criminal Minds had a great chance to do that with JJ and Reid, two regular characters who had a date early in S1 but never went out romantically ever again. They built one of the greatest platonic relationships I've ever seen on a Hollywood screen...and then the S14 finale happened.

*sigh*

 

Jerry and Elaine try again to date during the series and again decide they are better off as friends. 

I mean you want an example of specifically after ONE DATE they decide they are better off as friends and never date again?  I am not sure why that is so much different than going on two or three or so dates and then deciding that.  the basic idea is the same either way.

Ross and Frasier actually sleep together once and then go back to being friends.  Does that count?

[Bort]

Casey and Brian on Wings started a sexual relationship and went back to being friends. In fact, they weren’t really good friends before that, but they were after.

[Blergh]

2 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Casey and Brian on Wings started a sexual relationship and went back to being friends. In fact, they weren’t really good friends before that, but they were after.

Of course, it didn't help that IMO they were boring characters who were shoved down the viewers' throats as the cat's meow by the show's PTB but that's a rather common TV trope! 

[Luckylyn]

Stevie and David hooked up in Season 1 of Schitts Creek.  They ultimately ended up best friends.   They are one of my favorite tv friendships ever.

[Danielg342]

So there's a few exceptions. I'm still not giving Hollywood a pass on this. It's still too common for male+female relationships to involve at least the insinuation of romance and sex.

Which leads me to another question- has there ever been a male and a female lead (who are both obviously heterosexual) who start and remain friends and there is never a hint of sex or a romance? That might be less common.

[DoctorAtomic]

Greatest American Hero? I'm admitting reaching. 

 

[kathyk2]

24 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

So there's a few exceptions. I'm still not giving Hollywood a pass on this. It's still too common for male+female relationships to involve at least the insinuation of romance and sex.

Which leads me to another question- has there ever been a male and a female lead (who are both obviously heterosexual) who start and remain friends and there is never a hint of sex or a romance? That might be less common.

I have some examples the character from Cold Case never dated each other. Mary and Marshall from in Plain Sight were just friends and Mac and Stella from CSI NY never dated

[Irlandesa]

23 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Which leads me to another question- has there ever been a male and a female lead (who are both obviously heterosexual) who start and remain friends and there is never a hint of sex or a romance? That might be less common.

Hmm. I 'd say it happens quite a bit in the Law & Order universe.  I don't think the detectives in either CI coupling hooked up.  And in all the iterations of cops and DAs in the original mothership, I think there was only one acknowledged coupling. 

I can't remember if they ever hinted at something between Stabler and Benson other than being really close. I know people shipped them but they were platonic.  When he was separated from his wife, I think he had a fling with Benson's replacement when Hargitay was on maternity leave.

I hope they keep it that way too.

[Anduin]

25 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

So there's a few exceptions. I'm still not giving Hollywood a pass on this. It's still too common for male+female relationships to involve at least the insinuation of romance and sex.

Which leads me to another question- has there ever been a male and a female lead (who are both obviously heterosexual) who start and remain friends and there is never a hint of sex or a romance? That might be less common.

Star Trek Deep Space 9*, Voyager, and Enterprise. I don't know about Discovery. Babylon 5, if you count Ivanova as the lead over Delenn. For that matter, Sinclair and Delenn. Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Classic Doctor Who, outside of 4 and Sarah Jane.

*Holosuite simulations and alternate universes don't count.

[Trini]

37 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Which leads me to another question- has there ever been a male and a female lead (who are both obviously heterosexual) who start and remain friends and there is never a hint of sex or a romance? That might be less common.

Ugly Betty - for the most part. They give a few hints in the last season, but never actually 'went there'. But I think "never" would be too much to ask since the show was based on a soap opera in which the two leads are supposed to end up together.

[andromeda331]

Sherlock and Joan of Elementary although they met when she was hired as his sober companion as he got out of rehab. So not friends at first but became friends by the end of the first season and remained friends. They loved each other but in a completely platonic way. One of the best friendships on TV. 

[Silver Raven]

Elliot and Liv from Law & Order SVU never had a romantic relationship.

[Luckylyn]

6 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

So there's a few exceptions. I'm still not giving Hollywood a pass on this. It's still too common for male+female relationships to involve at least the insinuation of romance and sex.

Which leads me to another question- has there ever been a male and a female lead (who are both obviously heterosexual) who start and remain friends and there is never a hint of sex or a romance? That might be less common.

Stevie and Patrick Schitt’s Creek

Jack and Liz 30 Rock

Ron and Leslie Parks and Recreation 

Jake and Gina, Jake and Rosa, Amy  and Terry Brooklyn 99

Zhaan and Crichton Farscape

Charlie and Dani Life

Jeff and Shirley, Britta and Abed Community

Tosh and Jack Torchwood 

There’s also friendships that include flirtation but the pair is never a couple

John and Chiana Farscape

Jax and Alexis General Hospital

[Raja]

6 hours ago, Anduin said:

Star Trek Deep Space 9*, Voyager, and Enterprise. I don't know about Discovery. Babylon 5, if you count Ivanova as the lead over Delenn. For that matter, Sinclair and Delenn. Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Classic Doctor Who, outside of 4 and Sarah Jane.

*Holosuite simulations and alternate universes don't count.

I don't think Star Trek franchise is a fair example since the "lead" in the ensemble was also the Captain who was bound by tradition. Where as the  "senior staff"  officers as peers did have their share of past romantic entanglements and marriages 

[Anduin]

53 minutes ago, Raja said:

I don't think Star Trek franchise is a fair example since the "lead" in the ensemble was also the Captain who was bound by tradition. Where as the  "senior staff"  officers as peers did have their share of past romantic entanglements and marriages 

That's fair enough. However, there's still the other shows. Hey, would the lead woman in the Mandalorian be Cara, or the Armorer? They were both in three episodes. Mando didn't have any romance with either of them. Looks like SF comes out ahead in the 'lead man and woman not having a romance' field.

[Mabinogia]

I think the big problem with leads pairing off romantically is that even when they are 100% platonic, Stabler and Liv on SVU for instance, there are huge numbers of fans who ship them and a lot of show runners do some form of pandering. They might not "go there" exactly, but a lot of show runners will decide to start throwing in moments, little winks here and there. It's understandable, they are trying to please everyone, keep people watching. Some shows start pushing that line further and further until they end up saying "hey, why not? We've run out of ideas, let's see what happens when we put these two together". Usually, disaster happens. lol 

And the trouble with trying to please everybody is, you can't. There are people who will ship whoever the show chose to put together, people who will ship based on loving the actors involve, people who ship because it's crazy and they want to see the fireworks/explosion and people who ship because the show doesn't want them to. 

I fall into the based on loving the actors ship with a side dose of contrariness. If the "ship" is unpopular, I'm usually on it. lol

For some of those shows listed as not having the leads hook up, it's almost exclusively on shows with a lot of characters, the lesser of whom are hooking up. Sherlock and Watson are probably the best example of a show with very few main characters where the man and woman aren't "in love". Of course it's based on a male/male relationship. Ironically the other Sherlock and Watson (UK show) constantly hinted at possible romantic feelings between Sherlock and Watson, though usually with a wink wink vibe because they knew fans were all over it. I am a Sherlock/Moriarty shipper on that one. lol. 

Shipping is fascinating to me. 

[Stats Queen]

On 4/14/2020 at 3:19 AM, ratgirlagogo said:

This was every character on Torturewood, ahem, I mean Torchwood.

I want to thank your for the most brilliant and concise description of this show. the first season was great, the last season was just beyond awful.

[DoctorAtomic]

You mean the season that was on Starz? 

[Danielg342]

11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

For some of those shows listed as not having the leads hook up, it's almost exclusively on shows with a lot of characters, the lesser of whom are hooking up. Sherlock and Watson are probably the best example of a show with very few main characters where the man and woman aren't "in love".

They're either ensembles, where it's easy to keep characters apart and their relationships aren't typically well developed, or non-network TV, where producers can think a bit more outside of the box. Or the series are short-runners that never had a chance to develop things from the very preliminary stages.

The Elementary example is more along the lines of what I'm talking about- a well-developed male/female relationship that's a friendship and stays a friendship, without even a hint of boinking. I'm confident in that one because Elementary ran for quite some time and actually got to conclude, with its two leads intact. It's still very rare for a show centered around a man and a woman who are both heterosexual and there's never a hint of romance between the two. If the writers bother to develop the relationship between the two, they'll almost certainly hint at boinking, if not actually do it.

I could include Law & Order:SVU as well, but I wonder if Christopher Meloni were still hanging around in S21 would Elliott Stabler still be just platonic with Olivia Benson? I somehow doubt Dick Wolf would hold out for that long- this was the same guy who gave us the "is it because I'm a lesbian?" bombshell. Criminal Minds' Reid and JJ also went 14 years before a romance was dropped on them- give a Hollywood producer enough time and they'll mess up anything.

[paulvdb]

I stopped watching One Tree Hill early in the second season. Did Lucas and Haley ever get together in the later seasons? Or did they stay friends?

[Luckylyn]

1 hour ago, paulvdb said:

I stopped watching One Tree Hill early in the second season. Did Lucas and Haley ever get together in the later seasons? Or did they stay friends?

They stayed best friends.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I could include Law & Order:SVU as well, but I wonder if Christopher Meloni were still hanging around in S21 would Elliott Stabler still be just platonic with Olivia Benson? I somehow doubt Dick Wolf would hold out for that long- this was the same guy who gave us the "is it because I'm a lesbian?" bombshell.

As to your first question, yes. If Wolf had wanted to make them more than just partners and good friends, the time to have done it would have been when Elliot had separated with his wife. But he didn't. I give crap to Wolf for a lot of things, and I'm still EXTREMELY bitter this FAKAKTA show has gone on longer than the Mothership, which was vastly superior, but one thing I'll give him credit for, or rather Balcer, is for not going down that road with Olivia and Elliot. This was the only show in this franchise that we saw a lot more of the personal lives of the characters and their relationships.

As for Rohmbot's departure and that line? Apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned. And I didn't care how she got booted off; I'm just glad she did, and that line will NEVER NOT be funny. And the closest the Mothership ever got to a "romance" was Jack and Claire--and that was basically all innuendo until "Aftershock" where suddenly, hey! They're involved! Only for that stupid ass finale.

[Dr.OO7]

On 4/14/2020 at 9:56 AM, topanga said:

Great points. I've seen this trope happen a lot in comedies. Interestingly, it's often a black female character who's crazily stalking a male character that she calls "her man." Examples: Amen, The Parkers, The Proud Family (Disney cartoon), The Unicorn. When it's the reverse, the male character is not considered crazy--just smitten and "in love:" e.g. Moesha, Family Matters, Sister Sister.

The Stalking Is Love trope. One of the ones I hate the most, not just because of the incredibly unhealthy message that it's okay--hell, downright WONDERFUL for a guy to act like this, but the blatant Double Standard that when a woman does it, she's a nutcase.

Case in point, Sex And The City. When Carrie acted pathetic/clingy/crazy, she was treated like. . .she was pathetic/clingy/crazy. When Big stalks her after he's gotten married and eventually forces himself on her, it's sexy/passionate/romantic, as opposed to obsessive/scary/disrespectful of her and his wife. Carrie herself even pointed this out, asking why is it when men make grand romantic gestures, it's. . . romantic, but when women do it, it's desperate.

And it's depicted over and over again. I don't know why Hollywood has this aversion to portraying relationships normally.

Guy: Do you want to go out with me?

Girl: Yes.

(They date)

No, it's always "guy gets turned down, refuses to accept it, keeps pursuing the girl until she gives in." 

Stories like this trigger me, because I was stalked by an ex for an entire year after I broke up with him (the first of my 2 #MeToo stories)  because he refused to accept it. I was floored by how many people kept telling me that this meant "Wow, he must really love you to not want to give up on you!"

And that Double Standard is prevalent even within gender--as long as the guy is a member of the main cast, it's okay for him to act like this, but if he's a minor/recurring/one-shot character, HE is portrayed as a jerk/creep/psycho.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Camille

[Dr.OO7]

On a lighter note--despite this trope also being one that I hate--I caught the series finale of "Strike Back" the other night and I was pleasantly surprised, if not outright thrilled that Jamie Bamber's character wasn't killed off, because he's a well known Chronically Killed Actor.

It's very hard to get invested in a character when you see that they're being played by one of those. Particularly Bamber, who's so FUCKING GORGEOUS that I've fallen in love with basically everyone he's portrayed.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Camille

[Popples]

I will never get over Jamie Bamber being killed off on Law & Order: UK. 😡🤬

[ursula]

On 4/18/2020 at 11:22 PM, Danielg342 said:

 

Which leads me to another question- has there ever been a male and a female lead (who are both obviously heterosexual) who start and remain friends and there is never a hint of sex or a romance? That might be less common.

That’s almost always guaranteed to happen with an interracial pairing especially if one of the characters is black. It’s so common that the opposite trope is the exception.

The more modern version is the interracial romantic couple that end within the first few episodes of the show and go back to just being good friends. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'd like to see a show where the woman is stalked and then just pulls out a gun and blows the guy away. 

[DearEvette]

On 4/19/2020 at 1:22 AM, Danielg342 said:

Which leads me to another question- has there ever been a male and a female lead (who are both obviously heterosexual) who start and remain friends and there is never a hint of sex or a romance? That might be less common.

Alex and Meredith from Grey's.  There was a whole shipping contingent (as well as an entire anti-shipping contingent).  But they managed to keep a super tight , really deep friendship without it ever going there.  I don't think there was ever a hint there.

Also, I guess if Mad Men had a lead female character it would probably be Peggy.  And she and Don weren't exactly friends but they grew an interesting relationship over time.  Actually, I don't think there was ever anything between Joan and Don either, the other arguable female lead on the show.

[Ohiopirate02]

28 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Also, I guess if Mad Men had a lead female character it would probably be Peggy.  And she and Don weren't exactly friends but they grew an interesting relationship over time.  Actually, I don't think there was ever anything between Joan and Don either, the other arguable female lead on the show.

Mad Men's large ensemble cast lent itself to having platonic relationships between the main male and female characters.  Don and Joan never slept together because it was established in the first few episodes that she was Roger's mistress, and Peggy sleeps with Pete in the first episode.  Don may be a self-destructive womanizer, but he has some lines he would never cross.  The wife or mistress of a client is fair game, but not Roger; and Don would never sleep with a woman who was desperate enough to sleep with Pete Campbell.  Don not sleeping with either Peggy or Joan has to do with his moral code more than anything else.  I also think Peggy did proposition Don in like season two and he shot her down, never to speak of it again.