S01.E10: Hostile Witness

[calliope1975]

4 hours ago, Cheyanne11 said:

Also, and maybe I'm overthinking this, but I thought it possible Martin was lying to Kate about the police being there and the whole "I'm going to kill myself" was just more manipulation on his part so that she'd 'feel sorry' for him.

This wouldn't surprise me. It was incredibly manipulative to show the gun to Kate, imply he was going to kill her, maybe murder/suicide, then go the suicide option, bail on that, and then rage out. Maybe the cops came, maybe they didn't. The shootout reporting makes zero sense though. Did Kate say she called the police the next day after staying with the body all night? I suppose Kate's parent's could have covered it up, but it seems like it was an odd plot decision to keep who/what/why Annabelle was as a secret until the reveal. 

Overall, I was very happy that most everything made sense and the plot led us to the logical conclusion than some wild Dan is Gossip Girl twist at the end. Even the extremely chilling tag with Jeannette made sense to me based on what we've seen of her for 9 other episodes. 

I would have liked a bit more about Martin's past and the girl that was mentioned on the news that Kate freaked out about, but I'm not overly bothered by that. I think I want this to be the end of this story, and hope there's a new story for Season 2, though I'd be fine with the same cast in different roles or a completely new cast. 

[mandymax]

8 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Did Kate say she called the police the next day after staying with the body all night? I suppose Kate's parent's could have covered it up, but it seems like it was an odd plot decision to keep who/what/why Annabelle was as a secret until the reveal. 

I kind of wondered about Kate sitting with the body all night and calling the police the next day, as well as why she didn't seem to remember who Annabelle was, but then I realized that may well have been shock and trauma.  Her subconscious may have kicked in at some point during the night and "protected" her by suppressing the memory of killing him, which would explain her calling the police next day with - presumably - no explanation to the rest of the world as to how a dead body ended up in the house, hence the - still sort of weak - "killed in a shootout" story.

I do have a problem with that house just sitting there, totally furnished with all kinds of personal effects and debris and chaos left untouched, for over a year.  Who's paying the mortgage?  Did Martin have no family to come collect his things?  How has no one (else) broken in and graffitied the place or held ragers in all that time?  Wouldn't someone in the community have petitioned to have it torn down?

[Anela]

Jesus, that smile. You're all right: she could have opened the door right there, let her out, been the hero, and had the adulation she wanted all along. If they continue with this, next season, they need to make it known somehow, that she heard her, but I doubt that they will. She cut her hair, after she saw that Kate had cut hers, too. Like I said, I wondered if this would be the biggest twist - that she knew - but damn, that was hard to watch. 

Also, Martin with the gun, was manipulating her again. The supposed anger at himself, what an ass. He was counting on her good heart, not wanting him to die. 

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

I guess I have the UO regarding the finale - I was disappointed. I think the show worked best as a feature of two flawed girls, both victims in different ways - pressure, failed by their parents, attacked by society and the media.

While the show definitely showed Jeannette being "off" it was in a way that could have been attributed to going through her own traumas, and being a frankly, obnoxious and self-centered teenager. 

To end the series with Jeannette being a true villain alongside Martin, it lost me. It wasn't needed, and I think it took away from Martin being the true evil of the season. I don't think we need a S2 unless they do something completely different.

From interviews with the showrunners, it seems like they decided to add that ending scene late in filming, after they decided they wanted another big twist, and so they tacked it on.

All of this. I didn't hate it to the extent that the vast majority of the portrayal of Jeanette allowed for it. But it felt tacked on whether it was or not, especially after the scene between Kate and Jeanette in the basement.  I personally found the television performance at the end creepy enough. 

And yes to an anthology rather than continuation.  I loved the cast (even HQS grew on me, but then I never found her as annoying as most), so I would absolutely be in favor of a repertory style anthology like AHS.

33 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

It’s entirely feasible that as the year anniversary of the biggest crime to ever hit this small town that the police would decide to follow up on any and leads they had in their files. They also called Martin on night 1, so they already had him on “their list” of people who might have heard from Kate as soon as she “ran away.” So it entirely checks out without any further reason needed for me.

It wasn't really that near the anniversary.  It was just shy of 10 months. But I suppose that might be enough. 

 

[calliope1975]

Oh yeah, I completely understand why Kate would have blocked out the shooting, just not why it was reported as a shoot out when the cops received a call from a long held kidnapping victim, find one gun on the floor, one bullet fired, and a dead guy in the basement and are like - shootout! But I can handwave it away. 

6 minutes ago, mandymax said:

I do have a problem with that house just sitting there, totally furnished with all kinds of personal effects and debris and chaos left untouched, for over a year.  Who's paying the mortgage?  Did Martin have no family to come collect his things?  How has no one (else) broken in and graffitied the place or held ragers in all that time?  Wouldn't someone in the community have petitioned to have it torn down?

That is also odd. As was Martin being buried complete with headstone, though I can't remember if that was in or outside of Skyline. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by calliope1975

[BingeyKohan]

WAIT. Jeanette's home haircut was because she saw that Kate had cut her long hair off (before her talk show appearance)? I did not catch that before because well... one of them probably had professional help and the other didn't so the results weren't that similar. But wow. That's a good detail!

[Cinnabon]

16 minutes ago, mandymax said:

I kind of wondered about Kate sitting with the body all night and calling the police the next day, as well as why she didn't seem to remember who Annabelle was, but then I realized that may well have been shock and trauma.  Her subconscious may have kicked in at some point during the night and "protected" her by suppressing the memory of killing him, which would explain her calling the police next day with - presumably - no explanation to the rest of the world as to how a dead body ended up in the house, hence the - still sort of weak - "killed in a shootout" story.

I do have a problem with that house just sitting there, totally furnished with all kinds of personal effects and debris and chaos left untouched, for over a year.  Who's paying the mortgage?  Did Martin have no family to come collect his things?  How has no one (else) broken in and graffitied the place or held ragers in all that time?  Wouldn't someone in the community have petitioned to have it torn down?

The whole “shootout” story is a HUGE plot hole that I have trouble getting past. Even if traumatized, the police would have investigated and easily come to the conclusion that Kate shot Martin. And both she and the public would be well aware of it. 
 

And yeah, Martin’s house should’ve looked like Walter White’s from Breaking Bad after it had been empty for a while!

Edited June 16, 2021 by Cinnabon

[Cinnabon]

9 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

WAIT. Jeanette's home haircut was because she saw that Kate had cut her long hair off (before her talk show appearance)? I did not catch that before because well... one of them probably had professional help and the other didn't so the results weren't that similar. But wow. That's a good detail!

I personally don’t think that’s why she cut her hair. Doing so is a typical reaction to going through the kind she was going through. The writers also needed a way to clearly distinguish her in 1995. But maybe you’re right. 🤷‍♀️

[Anela]

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

 

*edited.

 

2 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

I guess I have the UO regarding the finale - I was disappointed. I think the show worked best as a feature of two flawed girls, both victims in different ways - pressure, failed by their parents, attacked by society and the media.

While the show definitely showed Jeannette being "off" it was in a way that could have been attributed to going through her own traumas, and being a frankly, obnoxious and self-centered teenager. 

To end the series with Jeannette being a true villain alongside Martin, it lost me. It wasn't needed, and I think it took away from Martin being the true evil of the season. I don't think we need a S2 unless they do something completely different.

From interviews with the showrunners, it seems like they decided to add that ending scene late in filming, after they decided they wanted another big twist, and so they tacked it on.

I liked the scenes with Kate and Jeannette basically sorting out the truth, and finding a common ground. Same with Mallory - as much as I disliked her, she lied to protect Kate too, even though she contributed to the pile on to Jeannette.

Poor Kate having to take a life, but she had a decent ending in a sense. Finding some peace, dealing with all of her suppressed memories, her friendship (or more) with Mallory.

Yay for Vince and Ben though (and how did Jamie know about them)?

But other plot lines just fell completely flat or were left out.
Would have been nice to see Derek
The impact on the Wallis family of Ashley's lies
Jamie and the gun outside of Jeannette's house
Jeannette getting back with the guy who punched her
Martin's past
The Martin shootout story made zero sense. Are we supposed to assume the family and police kept Kate killing Martin from being leaked to the media?

A very well-acted show by all the leads, but I just didn't love the finale.

I think Martin said they came to the door, but would be returning with a warrant, so they weren't actually inside the house. IF he was telling the truth, we don't know why they finally started to suspect him.  I think that's also where the speculation about someone tipping off the police comes from. I think Kate only heard Jeannette because she was close to the door.

 

Yeah, Martin was the abuser, and I don't like that some of the blame is on a teenage girl, but it was an effectively creepy ending. That's the only reason I guessed it, though: because these shows are always throwing so many red herrings out, that the biggest twist would be that she knew, and didn't do anything. and the reveal came after she was exonerated.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Anela

[BingeyKohan]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

The whole “shootout” story is a HUGE plot hole that I have trouble getting past. Even if traumatized, the police would have investigated and easily come to the conclusion that Kate shot Martin. And both she and the public would be well aware of it. 

Yeah. I personally think the writers painted themselves into a couple of corners here and there - one being the shootout thing. It would have been easy to have the news report go something like "Police gained access to the home where Martin Harris was shot dead" -- we the viewers could believe from that the police shot him but they wouldn't have to work their way out of a major tv-reporting error that definitely would have been clarified (on the Marsha Bailey show no less!) I almost feel like they changed their mind later and sort of retconned it. Also - with Kate saying earlier 'something had changed' with Martin and that's when she 'met Annabelle' - I feel like they wrote and filmed that without knowing what it was going to turn out to be and then had to come up with a reason 'something had changed' so they concocted the offscreen police drop-by that raises as many questions as it answers.

[Black Knight]

Jeanette cut her hair to a much shorter length than Kate's and the resulting hairstyle was very different. I don't think it was about copying Kate, that time.

[BingeyKohan]

Just now, Black Knight said:

Jeanette cut her hair to a much shorter length than Kate's and the resulting hairstyle was very different. I don't think it was about copying Kate, that time.

It's interesting though - they did make a point of Kate's mom snarking that Kate had chopped her hair off right before going on national tv (in fact that's almost all kate's mom even did in the finale) and I feel like that was edited close in time to Jeannette's home haircut sequence. It seems believable to me she'd be going for Kate length but by the time she kept having to cut more and more from each side to even it up that mess is what she ended up with!

[Anela]

16 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

WAIT. Jeanette's home haircut was because she saw that Kate had cut her long hair off (before her talk show appearance)? I did not catch that before because well... one of them probably had professional help and the other didn't so the results weren't that similar. But wow. That's a good detail!

That was what I got from it. I could be wrong. It looked like she did it right after. I suppose she could have done it, so that she might not be so recognizable. 

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

Yeah. I personally think the writers painted themselves into a couple of corners here and there - one being the shootout thing. It would have been easy to have the news report go something like "Police gained access to the home where Martin Harris was shot dead" -- we the viewers could believe from that the police shot him but they wouldn't have to work their way out of a major tv-reporting error that definitely would have been clarified (on the Marsha Bailey show no less!) I almost feel like they changed their mind later and sort of retconned it. Also - with Kate saying earlier 'something had changed' with Martin and that's when she 'met Annabelle' - I feel like they wrote and filmed that without knowing what it was going to turn out to be and then had to come up with a reason 'something had changed' so they concocted the offscreen police drop-by that raises as many questions as it answers.

Yep, no way Marsha Bailey wouldn’t have asked about Martin’s shooting. 

[xhoipolloix]

I feel manipulated. After not liking Kate very much throughout the season, and liking Jeanette more (especially in the beginning), my views changed dramatically in the end. Jeanette is a creepy hypocrite with no redeeming qualities. I guess that is how we are supposed to feel. It's kind of cheap. 

Quote

The whole “shootout” story is a HUGE plot hole that I have trouble getting past. 

HUGE

Edited June 16, 2021 by xhoipolloix

[Retired at last]

There would have been Kate's fingerprints and she would have had residue from firing the gun on her hands, even if she washed them before the police came. I am guessing that it was done to pacify the parents, and maybe that will come out in the next season.

[Bobcatkitten]

A few things - 

 

The last scene clearly wasn't October of 1994 like the beginning said. So how long between when Jeannette heard Kate and she was found? 

Why were the police there asking questions? 

Do we know there was a tip or is this speculation? I didn't remember one. 

The shooting details bugged me. Gunshot residue etc. No way that would have been hidden. Messed up an otherwise good finale. 

[KaveDweller]

1 hour ago, JenE4 said:

Kate shot him and they didn’t even hear—or hear of from Kate/Jamie/Vince—the gunshot to follow up whatsoever. Kate said she called the police the next morning after shooting Martin. 

When Jeanette, Jamie, and Vince heard the gunshot, Jamie said something like, "Welcome to Texas." I have never been to Texas, but I guess he's suggesting that it's not a big deal for people to just shoot guns in their yard? So maybe the neighbors didn't think anything of it.

Or they didn't want to get involved. I remember hearing some study about how sometimes when a lot of people hear screams for help from a distance, they are less likely to help because they all think "oh, someone else will do it."

What's more weird is that no one questioned what happened the next day when Kate was found. They would have known they didn't hear a gun that morning, but the night before.

Maybe the cops just kept it quiet because Kate was a minor and her parents are rich, and the media just got it wrong? There wasn't Twitter back then to question things as much.

1 hour ago, mandymax said:

I do have a problem with that house just sitting there, totally furnished with all kinds of personal effects and debris and chaos left untouched, for over a year.  Who's paying the mortgage?  Did Martin have no family to come collect his things?  How has no one (else) broken in and graffitied the place or held ragers in all that time?  Wouldn't someone in the community have petitioned to have it torn down?

Even if he had no family, you would think the bank would have re-possessed the house and auctioned it off. Even if no one wanted to buy it, it would have been emptied out.

[Cinnabon]

4 minutes ago, Retired at last said:

There would have been Kate's fingerprints and she would have had residue from firing the gun on her hands, even if she washed them before the police came. I am guessing that it was done to pacify the parents, and maybe that will come out in the next season.

You make great points, but I still don’t think the police would essentially lie. Given the circumstances, I think the public would agree that Kate did what she needed to do to save her own life. And even if the police did try to cover it up, the media would have been all over it. This wasn’t a tough mystery to crack.

[CrazyDog]

9 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Maybe the cops just kept it quiet because Kate was a minor and her parents are rich, and the media just got it wrong? There wasn't Twitter back then to question things as much.

I think it's sloppy writing, and essentially, we have to conclude something like this. There is a complete disconnect with the police shootout narrative told on the news, and Kate killing Martin. The police would know Kate killed Martin. So I think we have to assume the family helped suppress that info, which still seems pretty implausible.

Through the series, I thought they were layering things nicely with a potentially complex plot, but they really lost some of it in the finale. 

[skotnikov]

I just hope the next season will tell a different story. The way this season was wrapped up was quite perfect. No need to drag it further.

[CrystalBlue]

17 hours ago, Jx223 said:

 

The shootout story was a bit odd. The police would have discovered that Martin had been dead for hours before Kate called them and figured out the truth. Maybe the police were friends with Kate's family and that factored into them keeping the part of her killing Martin secret. It could have been a combination of that and them having sympathy for her and all that she had endured at Martin's hands. 

The police would not want to be involved in explaining an officer-involved shooting, and the ballistics would have proven the shot came from Annabelle, not the police.  I don't think even Joy or sympathy for Kate would lead the police department to cover up the truth of a dead body on their hands.

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, CrystalBlue said:

The police would not want to be involved in explaining an officer-involved shooting, and the ballistics would have proven the shot came from Annabelle, not the police.  I don't think even Joy or sympathy for Kate would lead the police department to cover up the truth of a dead body on their hands.

Exactly. Officer involved shootings are absolutely all investigated, even in “good “ shootings.

[Anela]

1 hour ago, KaveDweller said:

When Jeanette, Jamie, and Vince heard the gunshot, Jamie said something like, "Welcome to Texas." I have never been to Texas, but I guess he's suggesting that it's not a big deal for people to just shoot guns in their yard? So maybe the neighbors didn't think anything of it.

Or they didn't want to get involved. I remember hearing some study about how sometimes when a lot of people hear screams for help from a distance, they are less likely to help because they all think "oh, someone else will do it."

What's more weird is that no one questioned what happened the next day when Kate was found. They would have known they didn't hear a gun that morning, but the night before.

Maybe the cops just kept it quiet because Kate was a minor and her parents are rich, and the media just got it wrong? There wasn't Twitter back then to question things as much.

Even if he had no family, you would think the bank would have re-possessed the house and auctioned it off. Even if no one wanted to buy it, it would have been emptied out.

In my area, just two long streets over (I'm in Ohio, semi-rural), someone posted pictures of the local SWAT team, outside a house yesterday, on facebook. Someone else pointed out that they might not want to do that, since they were in the trees, but the poster said, "trust me, they aren't hiding, they've made themselves known". They were yelling for someone to come out. So, I don't understand the police shoot-out story, either. Kate defended herself - he brought the gun down, and he had held her captive for six months, at least. It would have been understood - her state of mind, and her killing the man who kept her prisoner in his basement.

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

The last scene clearly wasn't October of 1994 like the beginning said. So how long between when Jeannette heard Kate and she was found? 

I don't think Jeanette would have been quick to go back after the Christmas scare. It's not like she was making frequent visits to begin with, since Kate had been at Martin's for months leading up to Christmas.

I'd put the window at anytime from a month after Christmas to the day before Kate was found. But much closer to the former than the latter, since otherwise it doesn't make a whole lot of practical difference, though Jeanette is a sociopathic asshole regardless.

[RachelKM]

11 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

I'd put the window at anytime from a month after Christmas to the day before Kate was found. But much closer to the former than the latter, since otherwise it doesn't make a whole lot of practical difference, though Jeanette is a sociopathic asshole regardless.

The intro to the ending scene just show 1994. October of 1994 was more than 3 months after Kate was found and when she went to the talk show.

It was definitely later than January.  There are blossoms on the ground below the trees outside the house and Jeanette was wearing a sundress and short sleeve shirt (very similar to the outfit Kate was wearing when they spoke at the mall in June 93). 

I won't pretend to guess which kind of trees they were or when precisely they lose their blossoms; but that likely puts the time from around late spring/early summer 1994. Honestly, it matters very little.  If Jeanette didn't immediately at least make a tip (and again, I don't think she did because she would have used that), she is a sociopath. 

[Soup333]

I enjoyed this show until this episode. If it has another season I certainly won't be back. My main gripe has to do with Mallory and how much I hate her and how she got off scot free after being such a bitch to both her so-called friends. Matter of fact, all three of these girls are assholes. 

[Ambrosefolly]

5 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

I guess I have the UO regarding the finale - I was disappointed. I think the show worked best as a feature of two flawed girls, both victims in different ways - pressure, failed by their parents, attacked by society and the media.

While the show definitely showed Jeannette being "off" it was in a way that could have been attributed to going through her own traumas, and being a frankly, obnoxious and self-centered teenager. 

To end the series with Jeannette being a true villain alongside Martin, it lost me. It wasn't needed, and I think it took away from Martin being the true evil of the season. I don't think we need a S2 unless they do something completely different.

From interviews with the showrunners, it seems like they decided to add that ending scene late in filming, after they decided they wanted another big twist, and so they tacked it on.

I liked the scenes with Kate and Jeannette basically sorting out the truth, and finding a common ground. Same with Mallory - as much as I disliked her, she lied to protect Kate too, even though she contributed to the pile on to Jeannette.

Thank you CrazyDog! Exactly how I felt about the Jeanette ending.

I could take or leave the kiss. I wasn't a fan because Kate was a trauma victim, but with both Mallory's obsessiveness & Kate's tendencies to emotionally latch on to people for stability (which made her easy prey for Martin) and both of their neediness from their unstable mothers, transference happened with both of them, I think. Though I find aspects of their relationship problematic, with the heavy pot smoking and the extreme codependence, but they are teenagers.

However with Jeanette, they moved a yes, self-absorbed and thoughtless teenager who was relatable to being an actual sociopath. I wished they left it at Jeanette creepily imitating Kate's interview. I hated that the audience had confirmation that she was evil, despite what showrunners thought.

[Soup333]

8 hours ago, mandymax said:

Hmm.  I'm not sure how I feel about the finale.

I'm in the group that has never been a Mallory fan, simply because the actress portraying her has never seemed to fit the character, so Mallory and Kate becoming friends always felt forced to me.  As such, I was disappointed that they kissed - again, because they've never seemed to match in the first place, let alone as a romantic couple.  But following those lines, I could see season 2 taking the path of "Mallory thought it was real [because it did seem as though Mallory had romantic feelings for Kate] but, for Kate, it was merely an exuberant friendship kiss, so Mallory becomes unhinged and a stalker."

 

I am also in that group. Mallory has been a bully to both Jeanette and the guy friend this entire season and I just found her switch to being Kate's best friend strange and unbelievable. I don't care for the actress that plays her either. 

[Pallida]

Maybe I’m just trying to handwave some things, but I take the “shootout” to be a “first on the scene” news story that had a reporter make assumptions without details. The cops would not have known yet how Martin died - at least not with enough certainty to tell the public. I don’t think we’ve ever heard shootout from anybody other than the news report (correct me if I’m wrong!), and I think it’s kind of a neat detail on how we make assumptions and stick with it from small details. So, the audience might keep thinking shootout, but none of the characters did. I think it’s also reasonable that everybody knows Kate shot Martin while also acknowledging that it’s traumatizing so they don’t talk about it. For Kate, remembering Annabelle is reliving the experience of shooting someone for whom she still has conflicting feelings. Seems reasonable to suppress that. 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Pallida said:

I think it’s kind of a neat detail on how we make assumptions and stick with it from small details. So, the audience might keep thinking shootout, but none of the characters did. I think it’s also reasonable that everybody knows Kate shot Martin while also acknowledging that it’s traumatizing so they don’t talk about it.

The way Jeanette questioned her about it indicated that it was not known generally that the "shootout" description was not accurate, let alone that Kate shot Martin. I cannot imagine Jeanette of all people would fail to note that if anyone at anytime had mentioned it. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by RachelKM

[KaveDweller]

51 minutes ago, Pallida said:

Maybe I’m just trying to handwave some things, but I take the “shootout” to be a “first on the scene” news story that had a reporter make assumptions without details. The cops would not have known yet how Martin died - at least not with enough certainty to tell the public. I don’t think we’ve ever heard shootout from anybody other than the news report (correct me if I’m wrong!), and I think it’s kind of a neat detail on how we make assumptions and stick with it from small details. So, the audience might keep thinking shootout, but none of the characters did. I think it’s also reasonable that everybody knows Kate shot Martin while also acknowledging that it’s traumatizing so they don’t talk about it. For Kate, remembering Annabelle is reliving the experience of shooting someone for whom she still has conflicting feelings. Seems reasonable to suppress that. 

I can buy that the initial news report could have been wrong and just assumed it must have been a shootout. But Jeanette seemed really surprised to hear the reveal about Kate.

Also, it seems surprising her therapist wouldn't have tried to talk her through what happened if she knew about the shooting. Unless it was some technique to make Kate remember herself? And the therapist told Kate's parents not to discuss it with her either? It's strange her mother would take her on a hunting trip if she knew Kate was traumatized by shooting her kidnapper though.

[CrystalBlue]

11 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Yeah I tried to defend Mallory a few times and I got outright flamed.  Someone actually called me a horrible person for thinking Mallory wasn’t the villain of the story equal to Martin and I should be arrested myself,   I kinda stopped after that.   People are weird.  My point has always been their was no actual evidence of Mallory doing anything wrong except maybe being a bit of a bully to Jeanette in 93.  Jeanette on the other hand was perfectly willing to drop Mallory at the first opportunity and looking back she was already stalking both Kate and Martin at this point at least passively.    And yeah now we know Jeanette did know Kate was in the basement later.  People are making excuses for her.  Jamie gets to have his moment.     Heck even Martin has his defenders.    But Mallory it’s all hate all the time.

Another good reason for me to pay no attention to Twitter.  There sure are a lot of twits on there.  I'm sorry this happened to you.  You're one of the most intelligent, thoughtful and valuable members of this forum.

Regarding Mallory the character, I think some people bring their "hate" of the actress into the story and her character because they don't like her and for them it's personal.

[jackjill89]

5 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

Another good reason for me to pay no attention to Twitter.  There sure are a lot of twits on there.  I'm sorry this happened to you.  You're one of the most intelligent, thoughtful and valuable members of this forum.

Regarding Mallory the character, I think some people bring their "hate" of the actress into the story and her character because they don't like her and for them it's personal.

I definitely carried my dislike for the actress into the character. Her voice drove me up a freaking wall and I don't think she's a very good actress. 

I did like her friendship with Kate, and I liked her more with Kate, but I was more than happy to find out she was the one who saw Kate, and I wanted her to get in trouble for that. I was disappointed Kate forgave her so quickly. 

I have no doubt if I had liked the actress more I would have liked the character more. 

[Cinnabon]

33 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

I can buy that the initial news report could have been wrong and just assumed it must have been a shootout. But Jeanette seemed really surprised to hear the reveal about Kate.

Also, it seems surprising her therapist wouldn't have tried to talk her through what happened if she knew about the shooting. Unless it was some technique to make Kate remember herself? And the therapist told Kate's parents not to discuss it with her either? It's strange her mother would take her on a hunting trip if she knew Kate was traumatized by shooting her kidnapper though.

All of this!

[ZeeEnnui]

1 hour ago, jackjill89 said:

I definitely carried my dislike for the actress into the character. Her voice drove me up a freaking wall and I don't think she's a very good actress. 

I did like her friendship with Kate, and I liked her more with Kate, but I was more than happy to find out she was the one who saw Kate, and I wanted her to get in trouble for that. I was disappointed Kate forgave her so quickly. 

I have no doubt if I had liked the actress more I would have liked the character more. 

THIS. I said it on one of my earlier posts that if Mallory were played by a better actress that I think we as viewers would have responded differently to her. What a better actress would have brought to Mallory was the ability to bring nuance to a character that isn't necessarily likable but we could maybe find ways to like her better because she was complicated. THAT said, I did like her friendship with Kate. Ring Pops and Roller Rinks 4EVA!

At first, I couldn't believe how quickly Kate forgave Mallory (I'm Irish and we hold a helluva a grudge) but then the more I thought about it, I realized it made sense. Mallory honestly didn't know that it was Kate, she thought it was a girlfriend, and at this point she had no reason to think it could possibly her missing classmate. After realizing who she saw after Kate was rescued, Mallory kept quiet about what she'd seen to protect Kate. I didn't see it as malicious. Just a messy situation. I still may have been slow to forgive, but for Kate I think she was just so relieved for things to be over. Of course, poor Kate didn't realize that she got played by a Scrunchie Sociopath. 

[Ambrosefolly]

Here is my thing about Jeanette hearing Kate trapped in the basement: if Kate realized that Jeanette habitual broke into Martin's home, wouldn't she realize, or at least suspected, that the person soft shoeing around the house that she thought might not be Martin was Jeanette? Especially during times of the day Martin wouldn't be home. Wouldn't she confront her about that?

Considering how Martin was trying to cover his tracks about Kate, no one would be invited into or around his home. The A.C. could breakdown and he would live with an over heated home.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[DigitalCount]

6 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Here is my thing about Jeanette hearing Kate trapped in the basement: if Kate realized that Jeanette habitual broke into Martin's home, wouldn't she realize, or at least suspected, that the person soft shoeing around the house that she thought might not be Martin was Jeanette? Especially during times of the day Martin wouldn't be home. Wouldn't she confront her about that?

This is exactly what I said. Which plays into my issue with the last scene, especially now that I know it was written after the fact. Sometimes in shows that are aired with chronological scenes out of order, it seems like they are also written out of order. The characters react to the narrative sequence rather than the chronological sequence. Kate did not behave throughout the 95 scenes as if the information in the final scene was available to her, even though logically it had to have been something she had already experienced by that point. Jeanette, on the other hand, largely did; as some have said, she acted very much like a person who wasn't sure what pieces of information her accuser had, so she said as little as possible to avoid incriminating herself further.

On a different note, I'm also in the boat of "it was a relief kiss" though I think I'd be fine with Mal and Kate together (they focused in on the ring-pop way too long for it not to be significant). The roller rink scene had some real layers to it, so it feels pretty earned, even if it's not entirely healthy. I'm glad it was initiated by Kate though, whichever way this goes.

[Ambrosefolly]

It was always weak sauce to me that Jeanette would keep breaking into his home. Even if Jeanette convincingly lied, Kate would at least ask if she ever heard Jeanette walking around the house when she thought it was someone other than Martin and begged for help. As good of a liar as Jeanette was, she didn't deal with shocks well and Kate would have picked up if Jeanette hesitated to answer.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[LangeFan]

13 hours ago, JenE4 said:

The “tip” thing was conceived within this thread—not a part of the show. If someone “called it in” as a tip that Kate was being held captive, then they would have gotten a warrant not just “take his word for it” that he hasn’t seen Kate all year! 

It’s entirely feasible that as the year anniversary of the biggest crime to ever hit this small town that the police would decide to follow up on any and leads they had in their files. They also called Martin on night 1, so they already had him on “their list” of people who might have heard from Kate as soon as she “ran away.” So it entirely checks out without any further reason needed for me.

Kate shot him and they didn’t even hear—or hear of from Kate/Jamie/Vince—the gunshot to follow up whatsoever. Kate said she called the police the next morning after shooting Martin. 

 

Exactly...totally agree with everything you've written here and in some of your previous posts relating to the 'anonymous tip' idea. For me, there is absolutely no suggestion anywhere that (1) the police were at Martin's house based on an anonymous tip (for reasons you stated) or (2) that Jeanette phoned in an anonymous tip.

The exact dialogue was:

Martin: The police came here today.
Kate: They did?
Martin: It's only a matter of time before they're back with a search warrant

What Martin said about the search warrant can easily be viewed as him starting to unravel, realising that the current situation can't go on indefinitely and that, sooner or later, he will slip up or something will tip them off about him being a likely suspect.

The whole 'Jeanette phoning in an anonymous tip' suggestion likely comes from people not wanting to accept that she was, in reality, a sociopath who reveled in being popular and having Kate's life...all of which were indicated throughout the ten episodes.

[Cranberry]

The showrunner discussed Mallory and Kate here:

Quote

I also want to dive into Kate and Mallory’s relationship. Way back in the roller rink episode, I felt a couple of vibes from them. And then in Episode 10 they kiss. When did you guys decide they were going to be more than friends? Was it partially because of the chemistry between the two actors?

I wouldn’t call them a couple. What we saw was definitely their first kiss. So again, what happens next in the world as characters is to be decided. But Harley [Quinn Smith] has always felt that Mallory was queer. After shooting the pilot, that was Harley’s feeling. We knew that we were going to make Kate and Mallory friends. And then when we got together, it wasn’t written, they just brought it. They found that chemistry. It was there, and they started asking, “Is our future romantic?”

The more you watch them, the more in that roller rink, like you said, there’s chemistry, there’s heat there. So what we see there isn’t to suggest that they’ve been a couple behind the scenes this whole time and surprise! Here they are! I think we witnessed Kate’s happy ending, their first kiss.

I really adore about that kiss because the show does get into the homophobia of the era with Vince’s character. But for Kate and Mallory, it’s just a nice moment. Kate isn’t allowed many of those.

No, Kate isn’t allowed many at all. I think Mallory becomes Kate’s happy place, in a beautiful way. We wanted to honor the homophobia of the time and the place being the ’90s in Texas, but also we’re making TV for today. So to have this other Queer relationship that isn’t a coming out story, that isn’t sad on another level, but it’s just pure and honest and just lays it out there for you, is great.

She also said in that interview that she doesn't think Jeanette is a bad person, just misguided. Not sure I agree...

[waving feather]

2 hours ago, LangeFan said:

The whole 'Jeanette phoning in an anonymous tip' suggestion likely comes from people not wanting to accept that she was, in reality, a sociopath who reveled in being popular and having Kate's life...all of which were indicated throughout the ten episodes.

This. And I would also have to disagree with the suggestions that all teens are a little bit of sociopaths and that explains Jeanette's behaviour. Maybe some of the shady behavior but definitely not most of them, including stopping to smile after hearing Kate's cry for help. 

Most teens would have 1) try to open the basement door impulsively to investigate further where the cry for help is coming from or is what they heard even real. 2) run away in panic at first but later spilling it to their parents or siblings what they saw because they were so shakened by it and don't know what to do. Not stand there and smile like Jeanette did.

[Chaos Theory]

I think we are at what I like to call the “Lines on the whiteboard”  phase.  Where we are trying to connect all the plot points on a whiteboard and if one point doesnt connect sufficiently we call it a plot hole.   Sometimes plots just get dropped even in short mysteries.   And other times there are things that sound good to a bunch of writers that just don’t translate well on a screen.   As for Martin’s house I think it was more symbolism then anything else.   A place of secret evil.   If it got emptied out too much the confrontation scene between Kate and Jeanette really couldn’t have happened.   

Edited June 17, 2021 by Chaos Theory

[Spartan Girl]

8 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

THIS. I said it on one of my earlier posts that if Mallory were played by a better actress that I think we as viewers would have responded differently to her. What a better actress would have brought to Mallory was the ability to bring nuance to a character that isn't necessarily likable but we could maybe find ways to like her better because she was complicated. THAT said, I did like her friendship with Kate. Ring Pops and Roller Rinks 4EVA!

At first, I couldn't believe how quickly Kate forgave Mallory (I'm Irish and we hold a helluva a grudge) but then the more I thought about it, I realized it made sense. Mallory honestly didn't know that it was Kate, she thought it was a girlfriend, and at this point she had no reason to think it could possibly her missing classmate. After realizing who she saw after Kate was rescued, Mallory kept quiet about what she'd seen to protect Kate. I didn't see it as malicious. Just a messy situation. I still may have been slow to forgive, but for Kate I think she was just so relieved for things to be over. Of course, poor Kate didn't realize that she got played by a Scrunchie Sociopath. 

Also, Kate believed that she wronged Jeanette by jumping to conclusions and trashing her on air, so it seems natural that she wanted to confront Mallory first and get her side of the story before making the same mistake twice.

[peachmangosteen]

On 6/16/2021 at 2:57 AM, RachelKM said:

However, WTF with violating Checkhov's Gun principle with Jamie's gun in the glove compartment.  It could have at least been explained that he had it there as a(n idiotic) plan to protect her while he sat stalker vigil.

I thought they did explain it that way. They made it clear that Jamie had been feeling a lot of guilt over everything and that he wanted to protect Jeanette. He just did it in a fucked up way because he's fucked up lol.

On 6/16/2021 at 10:29 AM, CarpeFelis said:

How could Kate possibly have called at that point? She was locked in the basement.

I thoght this at first too but then I realized maybe Martine didn't lock the door behind him. If he was truthful with his 'I'm gonna kill myself so you can have a life' thing, then he wouldn't lock it. Although, now I'm hoping people's spec that that was him being manipulative is true because I felt TPTB romanticized Martin a bit and I hate that but if he was just being manipulative again that makes it less so. But they didn't make it clear so he was still slightly romanticized to me. 

19 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Kate said she called the police the next morning after shooting Martin. 

She did? I totally missed that lol. When did she say that? That also makes it seem like Martin may have been honest, which I hate.

I think Jeanette being sociopathic makes a ton of sense and there were signs all along, but the fact that we know the writers put that last scene in later on because they thought the finale needed something more makes me kinda hate it. I wish writers would just believe in their story and not think they need to add a twist because that's what audiences want nowadays.

I would love to see Blake Lee and the Jeanette actress recognized for their work. I am less enamored with Olivia Holt as most others, I mean at times she was no better than Harley Quinn Smith imo, but she did have some really affecting moments.

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, LangeFan said:

The whole 'Jeanette phoning in an anonymous tip' suggestion likely comes from people not wanting to accept that she was, in reality, a sociopath who reveled in being popular and having Kate's life...all of which were indicated throughout the ten episodes.

I think I was the one to initially float that theory here and nah, that's not it.

It's the timing of the cop's coming*.  It's the fact that the show literally showed us just a few seconds of post "Jeanette hears Kate."

*Which some people think Martin was lying about. While I don't agree he was lying, since we didn't see the scene, it's spec I can understand even if I think it's more logical that it's true.

It's the fact that the show has played the "here's what you didn't see about what you thought you saw" reveals. 

And it's the fact that there's a second season with potentially the same characters.  I don't think I'd be as speculative if it was a definitive one and done with these characters.  It might not be. So I speculate about what they might show us in the future.

I think they've walked the line with Jeanette all season. I don't know why they wouldn't find ways for that to continue in S2.

Quote

I felt TPTB romanticized Martin a bit and I hate that but if he was just being manipulative again that makes its less so.

I agree.  That last bit where he  was telling Kate to "live her life" did feel a bit like "see, his love is real and pure deep down."

Edited June 17, 2021 by Irlandesa

[Ambrosefolly]

5 hours ago, Cranberry said:

The showrunner discussed Mallory and Kate here:

She also said in that interview that she doesn't think Jeanette is a bad person, just misguided. Not sure I agree...

Unless the writing team got a tremendous amount of help, like they did with Martin grooming and abusing Kate, the show was weakly written. It had good characters and could be very grounded at times, but could be plot driven too. Especially when dealing with the Turner family. 

The only people happy with the last scene were people that thought Jeanette was a psycho anyways. The rest of us are fanwanking that Jeanette, at least in a moment of guilt, tipped off authorities. It wouldn't change the aspects of her personality that showed her to be selfish, unpleasant and opportunistic, but she also wouldn't be irredeemable evil, or have it confirmed. For goodness sakes, when Tenile announced that Kate had been found, she asked if they found Kate's body. That is fucking evil if you leave someone like that long enough that her being murdered is your reasonable conclusion.  Sorry show runners, anyone, even very young ones, that leaves anyone locked away to the mercies of a sexual predator in order to keep benefits, is evil. Either it is a cliff hanger or you want the audience to think Jeanette was a sociopath along, instead of leaving it up to the viewers. 

An argument can now be made that she was even more evil than Martin now, as it looked like Martin was doing things to save his skin and he and Kate deluded themselves into believing they were in some sort of romantic relationship. 

Now I rather that Jeanette saw on Christmas Eve. I can buy that a teenager would either think, that if Kate wanted to leave, she would just leave as Kate was free to roam the house and even called Jamie. 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[CarpeFelis]

11 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I thoght this at first too but then I realized maybe Martine didn't lock the door behind him. If he was truthful with his 'I'm gonna kill myself so you can have a life' thing, then he wouldn't lock it.

No, I meant before he went downstairs with the gun, there was no way the police had been brought to the door by a phone call from Kate.

[peachmangosteen]

6 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

No, I meant before he went downstairs with the gun, there was no way the police had been brought to the door by a phone call from Kate.

Oh yea, that's not possible. I thought people were thinking Kate was rescued the next day because she called the police herself. Which apparently she outright stated, but I missed that.

[peachmangosteen]

I also just realized that the simplest answer is that the police had been there that day and then came back the next day with the search warrant and found Kate, which would mean Martin was telling the truth (which again I hate lol).

But if Kate actually said she called the police herself the next day, then this is moot. But if Kate did call the police herself, that makes the 'deadly shootout' situation even more hard to swallow. 

Wow, there are still a lot of holes lol.