S10.E11: Andi Then We Came To The End/S10.E12: After The Final Rose

[MsPH]

You are right it's not about her "owing him" something. It's about treating another human being with decency and compassion. It's about extending kindness to another person - particularly one that you have been so intimate with (sexually and emotionally). Why I expect that from anyone who would appear on this ridiculous franchise is beyond me.

 

I've never commented as much as I have on a season - but for some reason Andi has really bugged, and turned me off. Apparently, she and Josh are out there attacking Nick and calling him classless. God forbid, they take a look inward and examine how Andi could have dealt with the situation better. She's the class act here . . . NOT.

 

Yes, exactly. And as far as I can tell, the leads of this show are contractually obliged to give their F2 some kind of an explanation. That is why the F2 always gets the chance to talk to them at ATFR. Nick was hoping to do it sooner, because it was eating him up and I suppose he still had some hope about her having second thoughts. I mean as far as we've been told he didn't know Andi was engaged to Josh until the MTA taping. When she was dumping him he asked her if it was about someone else and she wouldn't say, so I don't think he was sure what the outcome was. Much like Arie didn't know Emily was engaged to Jef until Jef told him. It's a pretty tough situation to be in. Having the person you're about to propose to do a total 180 and then not having any contact with them for months and wondering if that was really it. Considering the level of intimacy it's no wonder he was hoping to talk to her in private rather than on live television, and had she said she just fell in love with Josh and was happily engaged now, I think he could've moved on already. Whether the producers would've let that happen is another thing altogether. I just don't consider him a stalker for wanting to talk to her sooner rather than later.

 

What I do find a bit unhealthy is that he still seemed to have trouble believing that she didn't reciprocate his feelings. Even after she said so. But then again, when you're still in love with someone you don't want to think they're capable of being dishonest and using you. It is easier to think they're in denial about their own feelings. Unhealthy maybe, but falling in love screws with everyone's brains.

 

The thing is, from the get-go Andi was going on about how seriously she's taking this and having a temper tantrum whenever someone dared question her or was having fun that didn't involve her. So Nick took her seriously. He took her words seriously and he took the sex seriously. Then she's suddenly ice cold and essentially makes the break up all about him. Because he overanalyzes and that's all they'd be doing together. As if he'd need to analyze her feelings in the real world where she can tell him and there aren't other guys in the mix. I don't blame him for thinking she made a mistake based on assumptions. That's why he still had some hope. Because she didn't make it clear she just wanted Josh and instead made up a reason that sounded like an excuse.

 

Anyway, I'm sure he can move on now after that icy treatment. Not much room left for interpretation.

[kira28]

most everything has already been said but with that- I have never been team Nick, didn't care  much for him but the way Andi treated him was disgusting. As someone else said she could have taken someone she friend zoned to herF2 and let Nick leave with his dignity. Either she's lying about Josh always being the one or she is one stone cold bitch. I'm glad Nick outted her. It is gross that she slept with Nick then the very next night was banging Josh who was supposedly the guy she knew she wanted to marry. She knew Nick was damaged goods. He told her how he was hurt by his ex fiancé, his family told her its hard for him to put himself out there.  She blindsided him. I don't think Nick wanted Andi back he  just wanted an explanation so he could make sense of what had happened. I once had a boyfriend who talked about getting engaged and how he wanted to marry me and then two weeks later was a totally different person who dumped me for some girl he used to date. Now I didn't want the scumbag back but I did need to know WHY. How could he love me one minute and talk about the future and then flip a switch and totally hate me?  I'm sure that is part of what Nick is going thru. The worst thing someone you love can do is be so dismissive of you and treat you like you NEVER mattered and that is what Andi did.

 

I have no respect for her especially after she put Juan Pablo on blast for treating her badly then she goes and treats someone who seems to genuinely have  feelings for her like shit. And if you watch it wasn't one sided. She didn't treat Nick like she acted about say Cody. she seemed into him.

[Adeejay]

I think the story about Arie and Emily is that it wasn't one-sided even after the show.

 

Arie tried to contact Emily because he was led to believe that she hadn’t pick anyone.  He thought he still had a chance. 

 

Oh to be a fly on the wall when Andi explained to Josh why she slept with Nick less than a week before she accepted his proposal.  I am also wondering how his family feels about all of this.  Family trips and holidays with the Murrays should be so much fun.

[Artsda]

 

I have no respect for her especially after she put Juan Pablo on blast for treating her badly then she goes and treats someone who seems to genuinely have  feelings for her like shit.

 

Andi showed she's no better than Juan Pablo. 

[kebarrera]

Momma Murray was hosting a viewing party/fundraiser at a theater when the finale was airing. A news crew was on hand after Nick had made those comments. She was very gracious and said she was praying for Nick and could tell he was going through much heartbreak and at this point, Josh is only focused on him and Andi and has been since he put that ring on her finger.

 

In all the post-show interviews, you can tell that Andi and Josh don't want to talk about Nick but they have to answer the questions interviewers are asking. I bet it's just thrilling Nick that, because he made the comments he did, he took the attention away from talking about the "very happy couple" and instead they have to answer all these questions about her ex. As a joint couple, the only thing they are saying is it was classless (which it was) and that they moved past this two months ago and they aren't giving it or Nick a second thought. Sounds a lot better than anything I would say. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by kebarrera

[bosawks]

Andi showed she's no better than Juan Pablo. 

 

And that's okay.....

[Alapaki]

An interesting dynamic with Andi is her tendency to avoid difficult confrontations at Rose Ceremonies.
 
Going back to last season, she bailed on the F3 RC with Juan Pablo, but "ess okay".
 
This season, iirc, she sent Eric [snip] packing before that RC (sorry Tasos).
 
She dumped Chris before the F3 RC.
 
And she dumped Nick before the F2 RC.
 
Has there been a Bachelor(ette) whose done that so much?  The guy responsible for handling Harrison the champagne glass and little knife to tap it with must be pissed at her!

Edited July 31, 2014 by Rhondinella
poor taste

[backformore]

I've always thought that, if I was the one who "won", and then saw that up until the day before that my new fiance was just as likely to select the other guy, I'd wouldn't feel great about that.

 

Right.  Andi, like most of the leads in this show, is shown saying "I'm falling in love with TWO people"  and then extolling the virtues of both (sometimes 3).  Then they tell "the one"  that  "it was you all along, I knew the moment we met."   SO, the winner, watching it on TV, is wondering which part is fake - the love at first sight you had with me, or the I-can't-decide  I see on the show? 

 

As to Nick -  he had a similar dilemma.  Watching her and Josh, hearing that it was Josh all along that she loved, he wanted to know -  What happened -  Was it fake?  was it real?  What did we have, and how was I fooled into thinking you loved me?  It's not about not being chosen, I think he wants to know if she was being dishonest with him,  because he needs to figure out how to be vulnerable in a relationship while still protecting himself.    he's trying to figure out if he's delusional to think she cared, if she really cared, or if she tricked him.   I don't think it's out of line for him to ask those questions, and to challenge her to say either yes, i cared for you and it was real, or no, it's a TV show and I was just playing a role.  I have no problem with Nick saying "we made love", because that was part of his confusion about the whole thing. 

[Padma]

...her "owing him" something. It's about treating another human being with decency and compassion. It's about extending kindness to another person - particularly one that you have been so intimate with (sexually and emotionally). Why I expect that from anyone who would appear on this ridiculous franchise is beyond me.

 

I've never commented as much as I have on a season - but for some reason Andi has really bugged, and turned me off. Apparently, she and Josh are out there attacking Nick and calling him classless.

 

I agree completely that it's not about "owing" something special, just what you "owe" anyone, kindness, respect. And, even in this crazy show, a certain level of honesty. Because she was a lot cooler to Chris than to Josh and he still thought it was "enough" to mean he was still a real contender when she let him go. She didn't seem the least bit attracted to him but still was able to keep the illusion going enough for the show. She didn't have to go full out with Nick all the time.

 

Also, maybe it's old-fashioned, but I think when someone says "I'm in love with you" you kind of have a little responsibility not to do everything possible to build it up, intensify their feelings even more, knowing you're dumping them or "don't feel anything". That's so bitchy, especially from Andi, having seen how furious she was at Juan Pablo who didn't come close to leading her on the way she led on Nick.

 

How could you spend all that time with someone, have so many "deep, personal conversations" and a lot of fun together (and sex), meet his family  and see how worried they were about him because they know how badly hurt he was before...and then just do all you can to set him up for hurt again? She doesn't "owe" it to him to be in love with him, but what kind of woman does that? (Being "The Bachelorette" isn't an excuse because she -did- imo take it too far. Plus... the way she was with Juan Pablo! She has no right to be so unsympathetic to Nick after the self-pity and fury she unleashed on Juan Pablo--who wasn't even cruel to her!)

 

Now saying "we don't associate with people like that." Like what? He was genuinely IN LOVE, like maybe what she thinks SHE feels for Josh. If Josh had dumped Andi like she dropped Nick--after she'd said how in love she was, then sleeping with him--would she be okay with him choosing the other woman instead, when she was sure it was her? You know she'd be screaming from here to US Weekly about what an a--hole Josh was. What a hypocrite.

[MsPH]

Right.  Andi, like most of the leads in this show, is shown saying "I'm falling in love with TWO people"  and then extolling the virtues of both (sometimes 3).  Then they tell "the one"  that  "it was you all along, I knew the moment we met."   SO, the winner, watching it on TV, is wondering which part is fake - the love at first sight you had with me, or the I-can't-decide  I see on the show?

 

I think Josh said on Jimmy Kimmel that he's only watched his own dates and the stuff between the guys. I don't know if that means he's fastforwarded through all the other stuff, but something like that I guess. I'm sure that's good for his sanity, but then again, wouldn't it be good to have some added insight into the person you're about to marry? Pretending like the whole polyamory never happened is a bit strange IMO. But I suspect Nick was right about Josh doing anything Andi says. He seems a bit simple like that. He's got the girl and as long she's fun to be around it doesn't really matter what she's done or how she treats other people.

[Superpole2000]

I think Reality Steve is right about production being behind Nick's 'sex-bomb'

I think it was at least somewhat of a surprise. If production knew it was going to happen then they should have had Josh on the stage as it happened, or at the very least, given us a chance to see Josh's reaction.

 

Is she a horrible person for seeing Nick as a sort of backup? I don't think so because I think she genuinely cared about him and was willing to see where it could go if Josh didn't return her feeling or she felt something off with him. Nick was truly her second choice, as hurtful as that may be for him.

 

I think it does make her a horrible person. At the very least, she is incredibly selfish. There was zero chance she was going to pick Nick. She said as much after the show. So then why was she having sex with him? Did she just want to add some explicit drawings to the fairy tale book? Her behaviour demonstrates a complete lack of caring for Nick, and also disrespect for the future she was planning with Josh.

 

Had Andi just said that she was undecided down to the last few days then I wouldn't judge her too harshly. But she blew off (no pun intended) Nick in such a complete way and revealed that it was always going to be Josh. At that point, we can only conclude negative things about her character.

[violetr]

I once had a boyfriend who talked about getting engaged and how he wanted to marry me and then two weeks later was a totally different person who dumped me for some girl he used to date. Now I didn't want the scumbag back but I did need to know WHY. How could he love me one minute and talk about the future and then flip a switch and totally hate me? I'm sure that is part of what Nick is going thru.

 

THIS. I had a similar experience, although instead of acting like he hated me, the guy acted like there was never anything between us and I was delusional. Total gaslight situation. Andi "gaslighted" Nick. It's just unbelievably callous. But kudos to Nick for taking the high road in the media and on Twitter now while Andi and Josh continue to act like complete assholes.

[Armchair Critic]

I don't understand why some lead who realizes pretty

early on who they will pick doesn't make a deal with one of the contestants who knows already that he/she is not "into" the lead.

 

I know you were talking about the F2, but I think Ben Flajnik did this with Courtney Robertson. She wanted fame and he didn't want to get married, so she was willing to play along until the contract or whatever ran out.

[Melissa56789]

 

As to Nick -  he had a similar dilemma.  Watching her and Josh, hearing that it was Josh all along that she loved, he wanted to know -  What happened -  Was it fake?  was it real?  What did we have, and how was I fooled into thinking you loved me?  It's not about not being chosen, I think he wants to know if she was being dishonest with him,  because he needs to figure out how to be vulnerable in a relationship while still protecting himself.    he's trying to figure out if he's delusional to think she cared, if she really cared, or if she tricked him.   I don't think it's out of line for him to ask those questions, and to challenge her to say either yes, i cared for you and it was real, or no, it's a TV show and I was just playing a role.  I have no problem with Nick saying "we made love", because that was part of his confusion about the whole thing.

 

It's a TV Show.

 

24 of the 25 participants are going to be sent home. 

 

Closure?  No one can give you closure - except yourself.  It doesn't matter why any bachelorette or bachelor cut anyone. 

 

She's / He's just not that in to you.

 

Plus - it's a TV Show.

 

Get over it and move on.

[Adeejay]

I've always thought that, if I was the one who "won", and then saw that up until the day before that my new fiance was just as likely to select the other guy, I'd wouldn't feel great about that.

 

I have a feeling that is why most of these relationships don’t last.  To this day, I maintain that Ryan was Trista’s backup, much like Nick was Andi’s.  The difference was that Josh was all in, but Charlie wasn’t.

[Mrsjumbo]

If Josh didn't date for 5 yrs because his previous GF cheated on him, I will be surprised if this lasts after his finding out that Andi slept with Nick mere days apart from sleeping with him.

Wouldn't it have been awesome to see him throw a rose at her & say "thanks but no thanks" instead of proposing?

Maybe he feels he is too far into it & has to save face & after the whole media tour dies down they will split.

And I agree with the previous posters that Andi's true colors come out when she is confronted with the truth. Think of her scene with Eric. Josh will be lucky to get out of this, if he does.

[Beebee111]

 

I once had a boyfriend who talked about getting engaged and how he wanted to marry me and then two weeks later was a totally different person who dumped me for some girl he used to date. Now I didn't want the scumbag back but I did need to know WHY. How could he love me one minute and talk about the future and then flip a switch and totally hate me? I'm sure that is part of what Nick is going thru.

   

THIS. I had a similar experience, although instead of acting like he hated me, the guy acted like there was never anything between us and I was delusional. Total gaslight situation. Andi "gaslighted" Nick. It's just unbelievably callous. But kudos to Nick for taking the high road in the media and on Twitter now while Andi and Josh continue to act like complete assholes.

THIS. Some people! I think Josh is trying to bask in the media glory, being a celebrity for now. Remember if this doesn't work, he could still end up being the bachelor in another season (see Brad). The reality of all this will strike eventually. I'll be shocked if they make it.

 

For what it's worth, Nick is well on his way to being over this. Getting a dose of the real Andi was all the medicine he needed, to get back to the attitude that he had at the beginning of the season about what a load of hogwash 'the process' is.

 

"I think last night was a lot of closure for me, just seeing her demeanor with me, I don't know where it came from,"

[Andromeda]

And why did she quit her job if she was going to pick and stay with the guy in Atlanta?

I wish I knew the answer to that. It's a head-scratcher. Unless she really hated her job. Didn't she also say something about wanting to concentrate on starting a family? Which doesn't mean you have to quit your job, especially when you're not even pregnant.

 

Maybe the real answer is she wants to parlay her celebrity into something else, like Dancing with the Stars...

 

I also keep thinking back on how confident Nick was in the early episodes -- one reason the other guys turned against him. So wonder how much of his hurt is because of actual heartbreak, and how much because he was wrong and lost face (not that Andi didn't give him plenty of reason, but he lost confidence the closer to the end it got.) So I wonder if he didn't build things up in his mind to be something they weren't, to some extent. While the sex revelation does strike me as good evidence for him that she was on the same page, comparing the final dates, it's clear he had no confidence whatsoever, compared to Josh, who didn't give his "competition" a second thought (makes me wonder if Andi and Josh didn't already engage in pillow talk and both know the outcome.)

Edited July 30, 2014 by Andromeda

[alexa]

She did say on the ATFR something about how it has been convenient to pick the guy from Atlanta, but also difficult because she has talked with him about her desire to leave the Atlanta area.  I am just paraphrasing, as I can't remember exactly what she said, but she did mention wanting to leave.  That said, unless she has another job, she has the Atlanta guy so she might as well keep her job until they have a reason to leave.

[alexa]

It's a TV Show.

24 of the 25 participants are going to be sent home.

Closure?  No one can give you closure - except yourself.  It doesn't matter why any bachelorette or bachelor cut anyone.

She's / He's just not that in to you.

Plus - it's a TV Show.

Get over it and move on.

 

It is clear that many people are on opposite sides of the coin in this matter, so I won't pretend that anyone could change your opinion.  But I don't think anyone disagrees with the aspect of if someone isn't into you you have to move on at some point.  I think most of what has been said relates to Andi's behavior and leading him on, which she could have avoided.  I agree with what has been said above...it is okay to not be interested in someone but you can be respectful about it.  The other thing is that she wasn't very respectful to her fiance either.  

 

And none of this addresses that we can discuss getting over it as much as we want, but when it comes to humans and feelings, it is never that easy.  It is only easy to get over it if you never actually had feelings for the person in the first place, imo.

[Kbilly]

And why did she quit her job if she was going to pick and stay with the guy in Atlanta?

 

Maybe she "quit her job" much like Josh "gave up baseball".

 

We know she aint Dancin with the Stars. We've seen her dance. 

[Alapaki]

Here's an interesting thought:

Andi's statements and actions re: having been in love with Josh from the moment he stepped out if the limo seem to validate the concerns that Eric voiced in Connecticut that got him [snip] eliminated, no?

Is love to see someone ask Andi about that.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Rhondinella
poor taste; again

[Crumpet]

 

Either she's lying about Josh always being the one or she is one stone cold bitch.

 

I'll go with all of the above. 

[Palomar]

THIS. Some people! I think Josh is trying to bask in the media glory, being a celebrity for now. Remember if this doesn't work, he could still end up being the bachelor in another season (see Brad). The reality of all this will strike eventually. I'll be shocked if they make it.

For what it's worth, Nick is well on his way to being over this. Getting a dose of the real Andi was all the medicine he needed, to get back to the attitude that he had at the beginning of the season about what a load of hogwash 'the process' is.

"I think last night was a lot of closure for me, just seeing her demeanor with me, I don't know where it came from,"

 

 

Actually Nick is the one that has become the media star and the focus is on him now. Maybe part of calculated revenge or just having problems dealing with the situation...none of us knows which. No one usually even remembers the F2 but he has definitely put himself out there to be remembered...kind of like how he seemed to always be in the mix of thing on the show.  It's pretty easy to say you wish someone well AFTER the fact.

 

As far as Andi's demeanor goes...yes she was defensive....for one thing in her mind she had already given him the breakup speech and her reasons and had wished him well months ago. She pretty much knew by his continuing to persue seeing her that he would be calling her out.  After revealing to the world they had sex (normally something people think IS classless but because they don't like Andi, they think it is OK in this situation) did he suddenly expect her to be friendly? What other kind of demeanor did he expect?

 

As far as Andi and Josh trashing Nick...they only answer the question when asked during interviews....that they thought it WAS a classless thing to do. Should they lie and say it was classy? 

[lids]

Closure? No one can give you closure - except yourself. It doesn't matter why any bachelorette or bachelor cut anyone.

That's the thing though. Nick DID give himself closure by going back to the party that injured him and stating what was causing his confusion. Not to sound like a John Mayer song, but sometimes you have to say what you need to say or else you'll be holding on to that baggage forever.

It sucks for Andi that his truth about why he's hurting makes her look bad. But maybe she will reconsider her actions next time. I thought Nick came off rather brave because he put it all out there. And he totally shifted many people's perceptions of the relationship/show just by being honest enough to admit what goes on behind the scenes. For someone who was always telling the guys, "this is what happens next on the show," he totally went off script! He was willing to take whatever consequences would come, so he gets respect for that.

[Padma]

In retrospect, I think Eric's comments about her "acting" were so perceptive. No wonder she was angry about someone seeing through that act so soon. She does NOT take criticism well, I'm sure Josh will learn to "keep it to himself" after a few experiences with her temper when she doesn't get her way and isn't told exactly what she wants to hear.

For what it's worth, Nick is well on his way to being over this. Getting a dose of the real Andi was all the medicine he needed, to get back to the attitude that he had at the beginning of the season about what a load of hogwash 'the process' is.

 

"I think last night was a lot of closure for me, just seeing her demeanor with me, I don't know where it came from,"

 

I hope that's true, and of course, it makes sense that seeing the person wasn't as nice and wonderful as you thought -should- make it easier to get over them. (If only love had anything to do with logic....)

 

However, the thing that makes me saddest about what Andi did to Nick isn't that she deprived him of her company (far from it). Or even that she lied to him and callously led him on (although it made me dislike her more than ever). The worst thing is that she undermined his trust in himself, in his own ability to understand what a woman he's in love with is really feeling, and how someone feels about him and their relationship. It wasn't that she was confused. She made it (heartlessly) clear that it was Josh from the beginning and she had zero concern for Nick's feelings at all.

 

That's devastating, to feel that somehow YOU were so wrong about someone, while being so certain that you knew them so well.  That she -knew- that had happened to him and deeply hurt and depressed him before just makes her a worse witch than I thought.  (And it's -not- "just television". Strange as it seems, these people actually do experience real feelings and relationships.)

 

If I didn't hate Andi already, I would have found a way when she came out so smugly with "You should thank me that you found you're able to love someone." Really. There are no words. I thought maybe Chris H. would bring out Juan Pablo so he could get an apology from her, but...alas...no such thing. Chris didn't even ASK her about her hypocrisy at all. sigh.

[Melissa56789]

 

I think most of what has been said relates to Andi's behavior and leading him on, which she could have avoided.

 

I realize I'm the odd duck out here regarding Nick needing to move on.  (Come on.  He's 33 years old!)

 

That said, I'll continue to dig....

 

What constitutes "leading someone on" is relative.

 

Having sex with someone is not necessarily leading someone on.

 

Nick's perception that they "did fiance stuff" - tells me that he perceived the enounter to be much more intimate than Andi did.

 

For all we know - Andi perceived the enounter as casual sex - while Nick thought it was true love.

 

Nick seemed to filter everything she said/did through the true love filter. 

 

Andi could have thought she clearly communicated via words - that while passionate - it was not necessarily true love for her.  But he just didn't hear it.  Cuz he didn't want to hear it.

 

...and yeah - many many years ago I have been in situations not unlike Andi's where I thought I clearly communicated via words to a date that this was just casual.  But they turned into Stage 5 Clingers right afterwards.  And they clearly didn't hear me before.  And they weren't listening after.  So - I learned after a couple of restraining orders -  that no matter what you say - some people view sex as fiance stuff / true love.  Not just a simple roll in the hay - no matter what you say before you drop trou.

 

...I'll stop digging now.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Melissa56789

[Beebee111]

 

After revealing to the world they had sex (normally something people think IS classless but because they don't like Andi, they think it is OK in this situation) did he suddenly expect her to be friendly? What other kind of demeanor did he expect?

 

I actually didn't despise Andi until more recently. I gave her the benefit of the doubt over the Juan Pablo issue. But, there's now more than enough evidence of her character merit some harsh judgment.

 

YMMV. It's good to hear different opinions. For what it's worth, I am no prude and would see no shame in having conversations about sex. Josh made a comment about their sex life and no one has called him 'classless' over it.  She is living by a ridiculous double standard. If there was nothing wrong with her sleeping with him, why is there something wrong with Nick saying it happened? When he was telling her before the act how much it meant to him, why couldn't she say "this is just casual for me" - there were no cameras there.

 

It's not like Nick started describing all the positions they engaged in, who went down on who, and asked her whether her orgasm was real or not. If he did THAT, I would totally think he was a tool. He just said, that sex was something very meaningful to him, and he let her know that, and she still took advantage.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Beebee111

[violetr]

I actually didn't despise Andi until more recently. I gave her the benefit of the doubt over the Juan Pablo issue. But, there's now more than enough evidence of her character merit some harsh judgment.

 

I agree, and I'll take it one step further and say that I still support her response to Juan Pablo. I think he was a shallow, arrogant, sexist ass who deserved to be called out. In fact, it's what made me like her in the first place and continue to support her through most of her run as Bachelorette. It was her hardcore coldness to Nick and gaslighting that made me dislike her.

 

So - I learned after a couple of restraining orders -  that no matter what you say - some people view sex as fiance stuff / true love.

 

 

A COUPLE of restraining orders?! Good god, no wonder you're sensitive to the possibility of stalker behavior - you've been burned!

[JenE4]

I wish I knew the answer to that. It's a head-scratcher. Unless she really hated her job. Didn't she also say something about wanting to concentrate on starting a family? Which doesn't mean you have to quit your job, especially when you're not even pregnant.

Yes, but Josh quit his first love, baseball, all those years ago so he could find love. I suppose on the journey to find true love, you can't be tethered to a dream job you worked all your life to achieve. (Shrug)

[FireFoxy]

Yes, but Josh quit his first love, baseball, all those years ago so he could find love. I suppose on the journey to find true love, you can't be tethered to a dream job you worked all your life to achieve. (Shrug)

 

WHAT?!? Josh played baseball?! He never mentioned it!

[NoWhammies]

My guess is Andi is behaving coldly towards Nick and pretending it didn't mean anything to her in order to appease Josh. I still say what I saw on ATFR with Josh and the aggressive hugging/shoulder rubbing was barely concealed fury. I'm wondering if Josh has a jealous streak.

[leighdear]

Ya know who's going to get the brunt of the backlash?  Nick's little sister, Bella.

 

10 years old.  One of her classmates is going to say something like "My mom said your brother slept with a whore on TV and is a stalker". 

 

Because kids are always so tactful and always hear all the details correctly.  Really, I'm sure she'll NEVER hear anything negative about her big brother. 

 

She'll be fine.  Good thing he was able to get out all that hurt, confusion though.  Closure, right?  Obviously he really thought through ALL the ramifications of expressing his man-pain to the world.

Edited July 30, 2014 by leighdear

[truthaboutluv]

For all we know - Andi perceived the enounter as casual sex - while Nick thought it was true love.

 

 

But that's just it, she was well aware what page he was on in that regard and that's the problem. Listen I have no issue with people who engage in casual sex, hookups, etc. but I am a firm believer in the fact that in those situations everyone needs to be on the same page. And if Nick had pretended that's all he was in for and then after pulled this "how could you", then yeah that'd be bullshit. But the fact is she knew how he felt, she knew what it meant to him for them to take that step. And this honestly is the crux of this whole issue/debate whatever. It's the fact that she did not have to go there, period. No amount of spinning can justify it. 

 

Yes the lead has to lead people on a bit so I'm not even mad about Andi's telling Nick he had nothing to be scared of or worried about during their last day together or hell even any of other things she said and/or did with him. But behind closed doors, when there were no cameras, when I am sure she could have come up with something to bullshit her way out of having to have sex with him, she chose to cross that final line. And it was a shitty thing to do - to him and to her newly fiance she "loves so much" and claims she knew he was it for her from the minute he stepped out of the limo. As much as Josh never did anything for me personally, I feel bad and think that was a crappy thing to do to him. 

 

Ya know who's going to get the brunt of the backlash?  Nick's little sister, Bella.

 

 

Yeah I seriously doubt that. Even if a kid or two repeats something they heard their parents talking about, tweens also have the attention span of a gnat so by a day or two later they'll be on to their favorite music star or some other drama. And if nothing else, she has about 25 siblings, along with her parents to protect her. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[violetr]

Ya know who's going to get the brunt of the backlash?  Nick's little sister, Bella.

 

But what about THE CHILDREN!

[henripootel]

I think it was at least somewhat of a surprise [Nick's sex-bomb]. If production knew it was going to happen then they should have had Josh on the stage as it happened, or at the very least, given us a chance to see Josh's reaction.

 

I think it was definitely a surprise to Andi.  I wonder how long it took her to realize that the producers likely knew exactly what Nick was going to say, and (I'm convinced) actually put Nick up to doing something so rude on tv.  I'm not saying Nick is any kind of prince but I can't imagine him or anyone who wants to look good on a reality show saying such a thing without being encouraged to do so.  I know - hurt people say mean things.  I guess I'm just totally unconvinced that Nick is really all that hurt.  And I am convinced the producers orchestrated Nick's elaborate stalking, right up the point of making Andi sit there while he dropped his sex-bomb.

 

And even the producers aren't mad enough to do such a 'reveal' in front of Josh.  Either Josh is milking his 'love for Andi' for celebrity purposes (in which case he'd be required to make some reaction to show his 'outrage') or he actually does love Andi, in which case he'd probably punch Nick in the nose.  Either way, all it would do is focus attention on this question: 'if Andi loves Josh so much, why did she fuck Nick?'.  The Nick who's such a cad that he sex-bombed her 'love triumphs over all' moment.  That's not the take-home message the producers want.

Edited July 31, 2014 by henripootel

[Padma]

Either way, all it would do is focus attention on this question: 'if Andi loves Josh so much, why did she fuck Nick?'

 

That really is a great question (cleaned up a bit, I would have loved to see CH ask her that.) Because, really, why DID she? She didn't have to and there must have been a lot of sweet-talk/fakery involved just a day before she and Josh were "doing it" and talking about engagement rings.

 

Mutual consent casual sex isn't a problem, but this wasn't casual at all for Nick and Andi LED HIM to believe that she felt the same way he did about it. That's just low. But...I am kind of curious what her reason was. Test driving? "One last fling"? I have no idea, except that it was selfish and she didn't have to go there at all.  (Plus sending someone home after you've slept with them, as she would know, would hurt more than sending them home without having sex. Especially Nick, since she knew his history (although both these guys were confident they would be F1 and would have been devastated to be rejected after "going all the way" in the FS--I think Josh would have been just as shocked and upset as Nick was.)

 

As for Bella, I feel bad for her. She's probably asked Nick a million times, "I thought she liked us. Why didn't she choose you? Was it anything I said?"  CH's blog said he saw it as "Andi and Josh" since Italy. I really hope Andi is feeling some backlash.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Padma

[Beebee111]

 

I'm not saying Nick is any kind of prince but I can't imagine him or anyone who wants to look good on a reality show saying such a thing without being encouraged to do so.  I know - hurt people say mean things.  I guess I'm just totally unconvinced that Nick is really all that hurt.

 

Nick claims, that producers had nothing to do with it. Rather, it was a visceral reaction on his part to her being so heartless & a question he had legitimately wanted answered. I can believe that. I can also believe that in that moment, he may have experienced a streak of anger and vindictiveness at how he was being treated. All too common in break up situations. For example, remember how Claire lashed out at Juan Pablo telling him she felt sorry that his daughter had a father like him. That was way harsher IMHO.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Beebee111

[Superpole2000]

And even the producers aren't mad enough to do such a 'reveal' in front of Josh.  Either Josh is milking his 'love for Andi' for celebrity purposes (in which case he'd be required to make some reaction to show his 'outrage') or he actually does love Andi, in which case he'd probably punch Nick in the nose.  Either way, all it would do is focus attention on this question: 'if Andi loves Josh so much, why did she fuck Nick?'.  The Nick who's such a cad that he sex-bombed her 'love triumphs over all' moment.  That's not the take-home message the producers want.

I think these producers would have loved to do that. The evil precedent on this show was set with the great Melissa for Molly switch. Total missed opportunity for more drama, and this show loves more drama.

 

And yes, that is another excellent question. They needed to ask Josh how he felt and ask Andi why she had sex with Nick. That should have been 30 minutes of the AFTR...not the cat (sorry cat lovers).

[truthaboutluv]

That really is a great question (cleaned up a bit, I would have loved to see CH ask her that.) Because, really, why DID she?

 

 

There was a tabloid story that came out a few weeks before the finale stating that Andi made her decision based on the FS, suggesting that one guy I guess didn't perform that well and that's why she chose the other. And I know there were some cracks about Nick after he dropped the sex bombshell, that perhaps he didn't stack up to Josh's performance and that's why she went so cold on him. However, now I'm wondering if it's the complete opposite.

 

Maybe Andi went into the FS with Nick not planning to have sex with him but after some intense making out and maybe Nick pulled a move or two that made her so horny that she momentarily lost her head and figured, "oh screw it..." assuming that no one would ever know one way or the other. Let's face it, some viewers are always convinced sex happens with all those people anyway, so she might have figured it would be one of those things some people would think happened and others would believe didn't but where there would be no confirmation either way. Until of course, Nick basically put it on blast. 

 

Of course, it has also occurred to me that we've gotten no confirmation from Josh that he and Andi definitely had sex that night so maybe Nick was to Andi as Claire was to Juan Pablo, the person she liked making out with and enjoyed sex with him but did not see him as marriage material. Just saying...

 

Rather, it was a visceral reaction on his part to her being so heartless & a question he had legitimately wanted answered. I can believe that.

 

 

Based on what Nick has said post show, I get the impression the biggest thing he wanted answered or wanted closure on was whether or not any of what happened between him and Andi during that whole crazy experience was real or was it all for a show. I think that's what he was most struggling with. Because he came into the whole process skeptical and after getting what he believed were so many signs, reassurances, things she did, etc. it to him didn't add up with what happened at the end.

 

So he wanted to understand that and then when she came out so cold, defensive and just almost unfeeling, I think at that moment, it maybe confirmed in his mind that it was all a show. And with that, it led to the honestly pretty reasonable and fair, "so why did you sleep with me?" Basically asking the "why take it so far, what was the point and need for that?"

Edited July 31, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[MsPH]

My guess is Andi is behaving coldly towards Nick and pretending it didn't mean anything to her in order to appease Josh. I still say what I saw on ATFR with Josh and the aggressive hugging/shoulder rubbing was barely concealed fury. I'm wondering if Josh has a jealous streak.

 

It's probably got something to do with that. He can't have been too happy hearing about what she did with Nick, no matter how fine with it he claims to be now.

 

I actually think she really did have some strong feelings for Nick, but since she wasn't truly in love with either, Josh was just the easier choice. He's fun and lives 5 mins from her, so there's no hassle. But even though she raves about their relationship, it's still missing some of what she had with Nick and to get over that she's had to spin what they had into a negative and convince herself to practically hate Nick. So that there would be no "what ifs". He then made it easier by questioning her actions. I highly doubt he was bad in bed, since she was still raving about their passion to her sister a few days after the fact.

 

I just think it's so incredibly selfish to make someone wonder if they imagined it all. It's happened to me as well, and it really makes you lose trust in yourself and your own judgement. It takes a while to trust anyone after that. That's why I wanted to slap Andi when she insinuated he should be grateful to her. How self-absorbed can you get? She wanted to turn him into a believer and now wants to discredit everything he believed. I also get being annoyed at someone who won't take no for an answer, because I've been there too, but it's not like Nick was actually harassing her or imagining things based on nothing.

[canshetype]

Many years ago, one of my supervisors and I were discussing whether a client was telling the truth, and she responded that truth wasn't really relevant, in that we all have our own social constructions of reality-- "believe everything and believe nothing"-- she said.  That has served me well over my career (social work)-- and so I'm inclined to believe everything and nothing that Andi and Nick say.  There's some element of truth and some element of untruth in their stories.  It probably washes out in the end.  The thing is-- I like my Bachelor/Bachelorette best when it's a trainwreck- but a snarkworthy entertaining trainwreck.  I really dislike when it becomes ground for an object lesson-- it takes all the fun out of it.  And this is why, I look forward to Bachelor in Paradise-- because everyone will be horrible and drunk and all acts will be ill-advised.  It's the level playing field of my dreams.  Looking forward to that journey with all y'all!

[backformore]

For all we know - Andi perceived the enounter as casual sex - while Nick thought it was true love.

 

I disagree.  When one person is saying "I love you"  and "I fell in love with you"  and there is talk of  a proposal, the other person does NOT get to perceive the sex as "casual". 

 

Andi was OUTRAGED when Juan Pablo took her to the fantasy suite (I don't know what they did there)  and then treated her so casually afterwards.  She did the same thing to Nick.  Only he wasn't angry as much as heart-broken and confused.  

 

Andi, meet Karma. 

[Ketzel]

 I was surprised Andi didn't simply deny Nick's description of what went on in the FS. I can imagine her saying, "Let's not exaggerate, Nick. We didn't 'make love,' and if you think we did, you have a very different definition of intimacy and 'fiancé stuff' than I do, and that most people do."  And he could call her a liar all day long, but it would have been her word against his and the more he tried to prove his point, the more caddish and/or delusional he'd appear. I guess that's some evidence that she really was taken aback by his question, because I don't think she did herself any favors by more or less admitting it.

[Rhondinella]

And why did she quit her job if she was going to pick and stay with the guy in Atlanta?

 

If I understand correctly, Reality Steve indicated that she quit her job because the leave of absence she was given to go on the show was over and she either had to go back to work or lose her job.  Going back to work would have meant she couldn't finish the show, which wasn't an option.  Which, I guess, means she knew as soon as she signed the contract with Fleiss et al that she would end up having to quit, but strung it out as long as possible to keep getting paid (?maybe?, I don't know).  So sort of like Alli when she was on the Bachelor and had to leave the show to go back to her job or else lose it because she made it farther on the show than she had leave for.

 

There is talk that she has since gone and asked for the job back, which I guess might have been the plan all along, hoping they would take her back.  But I haven't heard if anything came of that.  I believe she is interested in the short term in more celebrity, DWTS, etc.  And some of have suggested she might be aiming for a career with Court TV (with her vast 1 1/2 years of experience in the law) or some other kind of legal program.  That seems not impossible to me.

[henripootel]

They needed to ask Josh how he felt and ask Andi why she had sex with Nick.

I don't think CH would have wanted an honest answer.  The real problem here is not so much why she'd have sexy-times with Nick, I mean why not?  He's not bad looking and they're both consenting adults, so play on.  Nay, the real issue is 'what does this tell us about Andi's frame of mind concerning Josh?' (and by extension, the 'journey' crapola of this show).  I agree with those who previously said that Andi probably treated this whole experience as a job interview, the job being 'C-list Bachelorette Celeb'.  Settling on one guy and getting a ring, this is part and parcel of getting the job.  Does she have feeling for Josh?  Uh, sure, why not, but those feelings allow for the possibility of shagging another guy not long before she did it with Josh.  Make of that what you will.

 

The really interesting bit to me is this: in sleeping with Nick, Andi did pretty much exactly what the show wanted her to do.  They set up the FSs year after year, and while you don't have to use them, the salacious conditions they create are pretty much tv gold.  Besides, the show perpetuates the notion that the 'ette hasn't really made up her mind until the end, right?  This has to be 'true', cuz if it's not (and the 'ette and a guy fell for each other right away), then this is whole thing (particularly the FS) is more than a little cruel.  Better to have someone like Andi who knows that the job requires a somewhat more ... practical approach towards feelings and whatnot.

 

Now, I agree that Nick dropping the sex-bomb when and where he did was bad form, but it's not like the producers didn't arrange the Den of Iniquity themselves, maneuver Nick and Andi into it, and film it all in such a way as to make everyone believe (correctly as it turns out) that the deed was done.  Odd that Andi following the 'journey' formula exactly as it was laid out for her - perfectly fine, romance at its best.  But having to admit she boned another guy while her 'true love' was in the bullpen waiting for his turn - scandalous and humiliating.  But she can't say that she didn't have strong feelings for Nick at the time (cuz then she's a slag), nor that she did have feelings for Josh (cuz then she's a cheater) (ETA: by which I mean 'will be perceived as a cheater' or whatever; in truth, it's her bees-wax and nobody else's).  

 

In short, I think there is no good, truthful answer Andi could have given other than this: 'I wanted the job and this is what it took to get it'.  That says all that needs saying about this show.

Edited July 31, 2014 by henripootel

[chocolatine]

Which, I guess, means she knew as soon as she signed the contract with Fleiss et al that she would end up having to quit, but strung it out as long as possible to keep getting paid (?maybe?, I don't know).

 

 

As far as I know, personal (i.e. non-medical) LOAs are unpaid. Some let you keep your health benefits for some time - usually 30 days. Maybe I'm a square, but I think that someone who's serious about a law career wouldn't touch the Bachelor franchise with a ten-foot pole, so even before Andi quit her job I took her "ambition" with a grain of salt.

[backformore]

Right -   short-term disability or family leave (to take care of a baby, tend to a sick family member)  are the types that are paid.  A LOA to be on a TV show can be granted or denied, and they don't have to hold your job if they need the work done.  But you don't get salary, otherwise, we would all find time to be on TV.  

I agree that Andi wasn't very serious about her job.  remember her intro on Juan Pablo's season?  It looked alike a low-budget lady-lawyer tv show.  I put criminals away, but I do it in heels while looking sexy!

 

I don't think DWTS is what she's after.  I think she had her eye on doing some court-type TV show - or being the "legal consultant"  on a daytime talk show, that they bring in to comment on current trials. 

Edited August 1, 2014 by backformore

[JenE4]

I think Andi could smooth out the drama/questioning by just saying that although I fell for Josh the moment he stepped out of the limo, I had my guard up because I made a judgment that he was the kind of guy who would immediately attract me and then end up burning me. I put my guard up and tried to convince myself that Nick was a different kind of guy that I SHOULD choose, so it was a constant struggle between my head and my heart. The fiance stuff with Nick never would have happened if I had my Fantasy suite date with Josh first. It was on that date with Josh that broke down my walls with him and my heart and head were all Josh. When Josh told me he loved me, it brought out all of my emotions that i was protecting; I loved him with all of my heart and soul. I regretted that I had previously tried so hard to convince myself to go for the safer match, Nick, which is why I suddenly came off so awkward and cold around him. I felt a little silly and embarrassed that I tried to make myself have feelings for Nick. He was being true to his feelings, and I appreciate how open he was to love, which is why I felt that I COULD build a life with him. But once I allowed myself to openly love Josh--despite trying SO hard to deny my feelings--I realized I loved him all along in a way I never thought I could find. Yet, Nick is a wonderful man and someone will be very lucky to have him.

(I do think Andi feels this way. Her talking head storyline fully supports this. For a DA, she should really be better at pleading her case.)

Edited July 31, 2014 by JenE4

[PhysNerd]

Speaking as someone who dated a guy very similar to Nick, Andi did the right thing in acting like a cold-hearted shrew when confronting Nick.  Yes, it doesn't paint her in the best light, but you absolutely cannot be nice or compassionate when you break up with guys like Nick.  These types are obsessive and desperate enough to interpret ANY sign of kindness as sign that you are still in love with them and that if they are persistent enough, they can change your mind.  

 

Funnily enough, I was also given a letter by my ex similar to Andi.  She made the right decision in not saying anything other than acknowledging that she read the letter.  Otherwise he would likely pursue her for years afterwards.

 If she truly doesn't love Nick, then remaining cold and distant is the best option in this case.  It's the only way of making things clear to Nick that it really is over so he can  face the fact that he must move on.  Break-ups with these types of guys isn't easy.  My ex begged for closure three times and I had the same break-up conversation all three times.  Andi could've met with him multiple times in private to provide this closure he was seeking, but he still would've wanted more closure if she didn't lay down the law. t can almost guarantee that Nick's version of "closure" involved getting Andi to change her mind or at least humiliating her (he achieved the latter with his outing her about the sex).  He did not say anything to Andi (besides the sex thing) that he hadn't already said when she dumped him.  What more closure does he need?  Andi is engaged to Josh.