S01.E03: Power Broker

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Sam and Bucky go to a criminal safe haven to find information about the Super Soldier serum.

Dropping Friday, April 2, 2021.

[Kromm]

Zemo isn't half as interesting as I wish he'd be. 

Madripoor and how it works was actually done okay. 

I like that they took the fact that the movies conveniently forgot Sharon Carter existed and carved a storyline out of it, where she got fucked over in-universe too. 

Overall this show isn't being that clever.  But I did like the ending of this one. 

 

 

[Lebanna]

So Sharon is still Agent Carter undercover, right? That woman with the car seemed official. In that case, good for her that she guilt tripped the boys six ways. They do deserve it. Best that nobody mentions how Steve is now her elderly great-uncle. If she felt hard done by before...

Also, the Carter women still can’t resist ogling a man with his shirt off.

Zemo is such dad-dancing a nerd. What is with that coat? It makes him look like a grandma.

Glad to see Wakanda is back in the mix. 

To be honest, I know that going back to being the Winter Solider undercover was supposed to be really traumatic for Bucky, but all he had to do was smash some people into walls, which is more or less what he does as a day job anyway.

I totally hadn’t clocked that Bucky’s fix-things-list notebook was also Steve’s learn-things-list notebook. That was one of the nicest things in that movie - in many parts of the world, the list shown on screen was different and about your own national or regional post 1945 history. The idea was that he’d just spoken to a tourist from your country and wanted to learn all about your recent history, even if it had nothing to do with the USA. I think that’s noticeable here, Steve was also international, he loved that other places were different, he thought other countries were important too, he went out of his way to learn French. John Walker doesn’t do languages, he has people for that. Don’t you know who he IS?

Edited April 2, 2021 by Lebanna

[swanpride]

The add...is it just me or felt other people angry about it, too? Honestly, it was kind of annoying how it pretended that everyone who got snapped had a great life which he or she wants to reclaim.

The German prison...honestly, it was kind of amusing how there was some awareness that German prisons are set-up a little bit different, so they tried to soften the idea of an American prison somewhat, but they still kept basically everything which would be considered a problem (above all the notion of someone sitting in complete isolation).

So Zemo is now a former noble (who for some reason worked covert ops at one point...like...WHAT?...that must be the strangest recon of them all)

Sharon doesn't get it. Bucky was never "Cap's" best friend. He was always Steve's best friend. There is a difference.

Didn't really buy her "woe me" story. She knew what she was doing when she stole the shield, plus, she is a shield field agent. With her skills, she has always options. And I am pretty sure that her family has the contacts they need due to the connection with Peggy. But I suspect she was just guilt-tripping the boys so that they wouldn't ask too many questions and realised that she is actually on some sort of official mission.

I guess there is no relation to Dinah Madani????

 

 

[Spartan Girl]

16 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Didn't really buy her "woe me" story. She knew what she was doing when she stole the shield, plus, she is a shield field agent. With her skills, she has always options. And I am pretty sure that her family has the contacts they need due to the connection with Peggy. But I suspect she was just guilt-tripping the boys so that they wouldn't ask too many questions and realised that she is actually on some sort of official mission.

Interesting theory but no, I’m on her side and she had the right to guilt-trip them—although Steve was the one that really deserved it. She might have known what she doing, but that doesn’t absolve Steve of letting her trust in the wind after she stuck her neck out for him. He managed to track down Net when she was on the run, but after the Blip etc was over he didn’t give a thought finding her or at the very least to clear her name, he just had to rush back to the 40s?! 

In any case I’m loving this new jaded cynical Sharon. Disappointed that she didn’t follow Sam and Bucky, but she’s bound to show up again. Just don’t let her be working for the Power Broker...

Guess Bucky broke his rules. Knew that was gonna happen.

Poor Sam had to drink the snake bits. Gross.

I’m shocked Zemo hasn’t screwed them over yet. I had to laugh at how even he’s a fan of Marvin Gaye while Bucky stubbornly clings to his 40s music.

Should’ve known Wakanda was going to come up! Disappointed it wasn’t Okoye that came for Zemo. They really should just hand him over to them when everything is done, but we’ll see what happens.

[paigow]

If Wakanda knows that Bucky has broken Zemo out, why try to recapture him before the endgame? Or if she is joining the team, how will Zemo explain her presence to the other lowlifes they encounter?

Edited April 2, 2021 by paigow

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Lebanna said:

So Sharon is still Agent Carter undercover, right? That woman with the car seemed official. 

I think just about everything here is supposed to be at face value.  But now that you mention it, to buy her story, we have to believe that somehow no one gave Sharon a second thought amid all their being on the run and following the Snap. Seems wildly out of character for Steve at a minimum, not to mention Fury. Also that as the show pointed out, Cyborg Staring Machine got a pardon for like seventy years' of crimes, and she did not. Hmm...Setup for a twist, pointed statement on the unfairness of the system, bad writing or what?

50 minutes ago, swanpride said:

So Zemo is now a former noble (who for some reason worked covert ops at one point...like...WHAT?...that must be the strangest recon of them all)

The comics version of Zemo was always a baron. 

It's plausible that despite being rich, Zemo worked as a covert ops soldier because he was a patriot, or because he had a sense of noblesse oblige, or because of a jones for power.

It's of course not the same thing, but in America, there are rich people who join the military to pave the way for political careers or because of family tradition.

[cambridgeguy]

22 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's of course not the same thing, but in America, there are rich people who join the military to pave the way for political careers or because of family tradition.

As another example a lot of the British Royals join the armed forces too in order to justify their fancy military titles.

There's nothing preventing Sharon from being on an official mission AND guilt tripping the boys. 

Speaking of which, apparently Sam is just like every other person and is completely incapable of turning off his damned phone.

 

[Spartan Girl]

37 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But now that you mention it, to buy her story, we have to believe that somehow no one gave Sharon a second thought amid all their being on the run and following the Snap. Seems wildly out of character for Steve at a minimum, not to mention Fury

Uh, the whole Endgame ending was wildly out of character for Steve, but let's not go down that road again...

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Zemo is such dad-dancing a nerd. What is with that coat?

It goes with the mask

[tv echo]

Live thoughts while watching this episode...

This Global Repatriation Council PR video is so deliberately diverse that it's ironic. 

Even one minute of John Walker is too much John Walker. I still don't like him. It's The Falcon and the Winter Soldier! It's not John Walker, Captain America!

This Bucky and Zemo scene is really well acted. Oh, man, a prison break! This Bucky and Sam scene is really well acted.  All around, Sebastian Stan, Daniel Bruhl and Anthony Mackie are doing terrific jobs with their characters.

Zemo's rich? I thought he was just a regular soldier who lost his family. This retconning makes no sense. If he had such wealth and resources, he wouldn't have needed to turn the Avengers against each other. He could be like Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne.

So Bucky's notebook is Steve's old notebook? That's cute.

Zemo's not completely wrong with his speech about icons.

They're trying to build up sympathy for Karli, but I still don't care.

Madripoor!  I'm glad they put the name on the screen, because I wouldn't have known how to spell it otherwise (kind of like Nidavellir).

Uh, the Winter Soldier would not have allowed his name to be broadcast in public. Also, now people know he cut his hair. Oh, this is not going to go well. I'm assuming that Bucky is only pretending that he has to obey Zemo's orders. Uh, guys, people are filming this whole fight on their phones. If they post the video to the Internet, everyone is going to know that Zemo is with Bucky and Sam.

Sam's concern for Bucky is touching. Poor Bucky!

Poor Sam! Sarah's phone call blew their mission. Why didn't he turn off his phone before they entered Madripoor? 

Sam: "I can't run in these heels!"  (LOL - Bryce Dallas Howard managed to do it in Jurassic World.)

Finally - Sharon Carter. Bitterness is a good look for Emily VanCamp. It erases some of her character's former blandness. Now she's dealing in stolen art? ? But what a coincidence that she just happens to be in Madripoor.

Sharon: "By the way, how is the new Cap?"
Bucky: "Don't get me started."
Sharon: "Please. You buy into all that Stars-N-Stripes bullshit. Before you were his pet psychopath, you were Mr. America, Cap's best friend."
Bucky: "Wow. She's kind of awful now."

It's funny that, of the four of them, Bucky - the former assassin - is the most idealistic.

It's hard to feel sympathy for Sharon when she's living in this rich house (albeit as a refugee), while we just saw and heard what happened to Isaiah in the last episode - and he didn't break any laws. In any event, it's about time she joined the team.

It's a trap! Uh, I guess not. Dr. Wilfrid Nagel, I presume? I don't like how Bucky is being used as the enforcer for their team. You can tell that he's uncomfortable with it.

So Karli stole the super soldier serum from the Power Broker. Btw, anyone else think that Dr. Nagel's "subtle" super soldier serum was also used on John Walker (despite his claim of not being a super soldier)? 

Sharon's now a very badass fighter. This Sharon would've wiped the floor with Rumlow.

What? Sharon's not going with them? Oh, I see. She lied to them. She's got her own agenda. I suspect that she's been working for or with Nick Fury on something.

Ugh - Lemar Hoskins calls John Walker "Cap." Hey, if you want to find Zemo, Bucky and/or Sam, try looking at social media (esp. videos coming out of Madripoor).

I like this thoughtful discussion about the shield between Sam and Bucky.

Nope. No sympathy for Karli. She intentionally murders people. Also, the Flag-Smashers are just as hypocritical as everyone else. Their motto is "One world, one people," but they're only concerned about a portion of the population.

What is Bucky up to? Wait, who is that woman at the end? Wasn't she one of the Dora Milaje?* As we know, Zemo killed King T'Chaka. At the end of Captain America: Civil War, Zemo attempted suicide, but was stopped by T'Challa and turned over to the authorities. So was she sent by T'Challa?

(* According to one media recap, she is Ayo, second-in-command of the Dora Milaje. She's played by Florence Kasumba.)

Ugh - another cliffhanger ending.

Edited April 3, 2021 by tv echo

[Gin and Tonic]

The deliberate dark sensuality of the scene where Zemo was offering up Bucky, and the kind of ... resignation? familiarity?... toward that kind of rhetoric on Bucky’s part was super dark.

I do wish the show would move past the superficial references to Bucky being out of time and dig deeper into things. It’s unsurprising that Bucky prefers 40s music. (I now like to think he and Steve are the Brooklyn boys in Hot Time in the Town of Berlin). Of course he likes culture he grew up with! I’d like to hear more about what it was like growing up during the Great Depression and how it’s affected him now that type of scarcity is over, or any number things that would have shaped him as a person and are now unmoored from peoples’ experience. 
 

Sam continues to be wonderful. His repeated checking in with Bucky demonstrate how much he cares about Bucky and about people. He’s gonna be a great cap because, for all his flaws, he’s a good man. 

[Abra]

SHARON!

AYO! I wasn't expecting a Wakandan presence in this series, but it makes sense with Zemo out.

SHIRTLESS SAM! ;)

I was feeling more sympathetic to Karli until she murdered all those people.

The clunkiness of the drama + humor did not work for me in this episode, as well as how easily Sam accepted Zemo's presence. The writing was off. And Sam knows better than to leave his phone on in a situation like that.

Who actually killed Selby? What did I miss there? For a minute I thought Sharon had something to do with it.

Speaking of Sharon again, I thought her driver/the conversation at the end was just because she had People in her new Madripoor life; I never thought she may have had connections to her former life. It will be interesting to see what's going on there.

I was one of the people who liked John Walker (for himself - I didn't think he should be Cap), but it took no time at all this episode for me to change that opinion. "Do you know who I am?!" Fuck this guy and his power trip. I still like Lemar, though. If John doesn't get his shit together, and I'm not seeing that happening so much with only three episodes left, I want Lemar to dump his ass and switch to Sam's side.

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts after a rewatch.

[Chicago Redshirt]

33 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Zemo's rich? I thought he was just a regular soldier who lost his family. This retconning makes no sense. If he had such wealth and resources, he wouldn't have needed to turn the Avengers against each other. He could be like Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne.

On the contrary, it makes way more sense that a super-rich person could use his resources to follow the Hydra bread crumbs and orchestrate his elaborate Civil War plan than a random military guy.

He is like Bruce Wayne, but evil and with fewer gadgets. 

His logic in Civil War is akin to Batfleck's logic in Batman v. Superman, except he is convinced that there is a 100 percent chance because of Sokovia's destruction that the good guys will cause chaos as opposed to Batfleck speculating that something must be done if there's even a 1 percent chance of Bad Superman after the destruction of much of Metropolis.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Lebanna]

38 minutes ago, Gin and Tonic said:

The deliberate dark sensuality of the scene where Zemo was offering up Bucky, and the kind of ... resignation? familiarity?... toward that kind of rhetoric on Bucky’s part was super dark.

Yes, it’s probably just because it’s on Disney but I was kind of amazed that they actually went there. 

The similarities with the Winter Soldier program and the Roman gladiatorial culture continues. When someone owns you and makes you kill, they’re probably going to ignore all your other boundaries when they hire you out. The moral of history is that people suck.

Poor Bucky. Presumably he remembers all that as well. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Lebanna

[AimingforYoko]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

They're trying to build up sympathy for Karli, but I still don't care.

They did, then they took it all away when she blew up that building with the guards still inside.

Well, Wakanda's involved now, things are getting complicated.

[Ohiopirate02]

I wish Bucky would have elaborated on the 40s music he likes.  It could be the obvious Big Band groups like Glen Miller or Bucky could have been listening to artists like Woody Guthrie or Billie Holiday.  Missed opportunity here by the writers.

[calliope1975]

So they did the same with Karli that they did with JW. Oh, maybe they're not so bad....oop, nope, they suck. I wonder if her hot cohort will eventually defect since she's gone murdery. 

I enjoyed Zemo just casually saying stuff randomly to undermine Sam and Bucky's beliefs. DB is great, and I'd like a gif of his dad dancing. 

Can I get a 6 episode series of Bucky's time in Wakanda? The Dora Milaje don't play so I'm curious if and how Bucky's going to convince Ayo to hold off. 

Sharon's totally on a mission, but I appreciated her guilt trip AND she took out a entire battalion of bad guys while the boys chatted up that creepy scientist. Better than Erskine my ass. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

Sharon doesn't get it. Bucky was never "Cap's" best friend. He was always Steve's best friend. There is a difference.

I think Sharon does get it, and this also goes to what Zemo said about icons and putting people on pedestals. Neither Sam nor Bucky have come right out and said that Steve abandoned them, and while they're willing to help her get a pardon or whatever now, it seems like she completely dropped off of everyone's radar, including Steve's. They need her now and so they're going to help her, but what about before? It's really annoying that Steve still gets to be some shining beacon when his final act was to run off back to the fifties, and only Sharon seems at all salty about it when she (probably) doesn't even know all of it. "Wow. She's really kind of awful now." No. No, she isn't.

I don't know why I was surprised when Zemo shot the doctor, since I had the feeling he would very much hate the idea of the serum being a thing again. And the only reason it didn't happen before is because Nagel disappeared in the Snap. Are they going to do more with Isaiah, since they specifically mentioned using his blood to recreate Erskine's work? I wouldn't mind further exploration.

 

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

They did, then they took it all away when she blew up that building with the guards still inside.

Honestly, it could go either way. They robbed the place at first, and Karli pointed out that they were just sitting on six months of supplies that likely was marked for the refugee camps. Food, water, medicine, whatever else, while her grandmother (I guess, since I have no idea how old she is) is dying of tuberculosis due to the lousy conditions. If they weren't hoarding it for themselves, they were selling it for black market prices while the people who were supposed to be benefiting from it went without.

Sam. Sam. Put your damn phone on vibrate next time. Seriously, it's like being at the movies when you're in the middle of a tense meeting, your phone should be silenced.

[thuganomics85]

Zemo!  Glad to see that smug bastard finally enter into the picture!  Him being secretly rich this entire time might be a bit of a recon (although I think that is more in line with his comic origins), but it's not the most far-fetch thing to happen inside the MCU, and it might at least help explain away some of the minor inconveniences going forward (globe-trotting, acquiring resources, etc.)  Of course, I wonder how long he'll actually be an ally, because I have to imagine it will only be a matter of time before he turns on them.  No amount of money, badass coats, or smooth dancing skills will hide the fact that he is really not a nice dude, and is capable of a lot (hell, he actually broke up The Avengers!)  Daniel Bruhl was great as always and I can't wait to see more of him as this character.

We also got our first appearance of Sharon Carter on this show!  Looks like she's been living off the grid post-Civil War and understandably still miffed at how things turned out and feeling abandoned by the gang (hey, Steve's busy.... slo-dancing in the 40s with your great aunt, Sharon!)  But she came through for them big time this episode.  Including dispatching an entire league of hitmen, while the other three were off interrogating a suspect.  It looks like she's hanging back for now, but I'm guessing that scene of her with the limo and "official" looking person means that there is more going on here than what she claims.

Whelp, Karli has pretty much just escalated things with the Flag Smashers by blowing up a building with imprisoned soldiers in it.  That's just going to move the organization up a few spots in the terrorist organization list, so congrats?  Also, I know she claims that having the last of the serum means that the Power Broker will have to play ball now, but I have a feeling that this Power Broker is going to be someone who will be even more dangerous once their back is up against the wall.

Not much of Walker in this one, but it definitely looks like his facade is already slipping.  When he started snarling "bullshit!" in the beginning, I naturally couldn't help but to say "Language!"  Not my Captain America!  I did notice that Lamar was actually starting to question his decision-making as well.

Sam, silence your damn cell phone!  Especially when you're on an undercover mission that require you to be in heels and be referred to as "Smiling Tiger."

Bucky still clings to his 40s music and hasn't even listened to Marvin Gaye yet.  You're such a stubborn old man sometimes!

Continue to like the theme of their being conflicts and resentments between those who survived the Blip and those who didn't and came back.  Again, I imagine that would happen if someone like that ever occurred in real life.

Figured the final scene was leading to something, but I wasn't expecting it to be bringing Wakanda into the fold, even though it makes sense after what Zemo did to them.  Great seeing Ayo again, even if part of me was hoping for Okoye.  Hopefully she'll be popping back up in the film soon! 

[Hana Chan]

2 hours ago, Gin and Tonic said:

The deliberate dark sensuality of the scene where Zemo was offering up Bucky, and the kind of ... resignation? familiarity?... toward that kind of rhetoric on Bucky’s part was super dark.

There is a lot of fanfic out there where the Winter Solder was used by HYDRA for more than just killing. That Marvel even hinted something that dark is pretty shocking.

Another excellent episode that left me ranting that I have to wait another week to find out what happens next. The chemistry between Bucky and Sam is great, but between Bucky and Zemo? Some serious foeyay going on there. Zemo is a really intriguing figure - he's definitely a villain, but you can understand his motivations. And he does have a serious point about iconic figures leading to dangerous place (and drawing a direct line between the idolatry of Captain America and Hitler). He's got very good reason to believe as he does. And I'm not going to lie - I love what an absolute diva he is and his bad dancing. 

The episode was a bit more Bucky-centric and it was fascinating to see just how damaged he is and the disconnect he often has. He understands modern technology because it was useful for missions, but he doesn't connect with modern culture that much. He can be ruthless and Machiavellian when it comes to a mission but it the most idealistic of the characters on the show. He truly did believe in the importance of Captain America and the value of symbols. He honestly feels that it's critical for not just Captain America to exist, but to have someone who really understands what being Captain America means in that role.

Speaking of Captain America, Walker is really showing what Erskine was worried about. When he demanded if a suspect knew who he was, it became clear that he really had no real grasp about what the figure of Captain America means. Not going to be sorry when he gets taken down.

And Sharon... not sure if she is was there undercover or because she's really on the run but she was a welcome presence. And I was actually cheering when Ayo showed up at the end. I'm going to have to rewatch because there's a lot of unpack with this episode.

[VCRTracking]

 

 

[festivus]

Yeah, I'm quite liking "awful" Sharon now. Will this be the thing to get a conversation going on what a shitty thing Steve did? One could only hope.

I liked the end with Ayo showing up. Of course Wakanda is going to have a problem with Zemo being out. Also, Zemo was great. I love his low key ways of starting trouble. Like digging at Bucky and Sam. There's a reason why he's been my favorite villain. He has layers. Like a parfait.

I need to watch again. Seemed like too much happened for me to process first go around.

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's plausible that despite being rich, Zemo worked as a covert ops soldier because he was a patriot, or because he had a sense of noblesse oblige, or because of a jones for power.

It's of course not the same thing, but in America, there are rich people who join the military to pave the way for political careers or because of family tradition.

For most of world history the scions of the aristocracy and the upper class would join the military quite regularly as a prestige/duty thing.

The modern sense that they tend to avoid military service is a post-World War II societal shift.  If Zemo is a traditionalist, joining the military would not be unusual.

[swanpride]

Quote

I think Sharon does get it, and this also goes to what Zemo said about icons and putting people on pedestals.

Sure, one should never put people on pedestals. Especially not in stone. (I wonder if the show will make a point about statues down the line). But it is also important to remember that while Sam was Cap's best friend, Bucky was always Steve's best friend. He never liked Steve's Cap's persona, he was explicit about not following Cap but Steve into the war. What Bucky puts on the pedestal is not the guy with the shield, it is this kid from Brooklyn who kept pushing him into doing better. That is part of the reason why Bucky doesn't get Sam giving up the shield, because to him the whole Cap persona means nothing, he is into it for Steve.

3 hours ago, festivus said:

Will this be the thing to get a conversation going on what a shitty thing Steve did? One could only hope.

Oh please no! I get enough of that nonsense on Ao3. Steve is an hero, but at the end of the day he is only human. while I feel that Steve leaving was ooc for him, I would still feel that in universe I would dislike anyone acting as if someone thinking of his own happiness for once is somehow a crime.

[festivus]

I want that conversation. What Steve did affects them and I cry foul if it doesn't happen. And yes he is only human and that should be a part of this conversation with Steve as Cap and Steve the human. I think it's important for the show. Not everyone reads fanfic.

[Hana Chan]

37 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Karli has pretty much just escalated things with the Flag Smashers by blowing up a building with imprisoned soldiers in it.  That's just going to move the organization up a few spots in the terrorist organization list, so congrats? 

This was another great element where you can understand and even sympathize with the motivations of the series villains, but recognize that they went so far out of bounds that they have to be taken down. Unquestionably the return of half the world's population has caused tremendous upheavals and a lot of people are suffering on both sides. There are resources set aside to help those returning from the Blip to reacclimate, but Kari and her followers clearly feel (not unjustly) that many who hadn't been Blipped are being ignored and left behind. It's certainly understandable why she would feel so strongly, but killing captives who had no way of escaping negates any justification she might have for her actions. 

All of these gray areas that the series is exploring really set it apart from a lot of other MCU projects. There are clear bad guys, but they're bad guys that we can understand.

[xaxat]

In the previouslies they replayed the scene in the jeep where Walker tells Sam that the serum doesn't have a great track record. In the scene where Walker is talking to Lemar after the raid, there is a brief moment where he looks disoriented. Confirmation that he has taken serum? It could explain his increasing assholishness aggression. I don't think the guy we met in the locker room would drop the "Do you know who I am!" line. (It also might explain Kari's actions.)

I like hardened Sharon. 

I wonder if we will see another therapy session. Because what Bucky did is essentially the same as falling off the wagon.

Edited April 2, 2021 by xaxat

[Gin and Tonic]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I wish Bucky would have elaborated on the 40s music he likes.  It could be the obvious Big Band groups like Glen Miller or Bucky could have been listening to artists like Woody Guthrie or Billie Holiday.  Missed opportunity here by the writers.

Yes! This is what I mean by feeling like the references were a little generic. It also juxtaposed 40s music against Marvin Gaye and his exploration of the African American experience which was clunky to me because there was plenty of pre-war music that did the same. It wouldn’t be believable to me to have Bucky start discoursing about Strange Fruit (nor would I want to see it) but it did exist. The Hobbit reference worked much better for me because in addition to learning something about Bucky, it was a reminder that culture and life didn’t start in the post-war era.

I felt the same way about Sharon’s comments about Bucky believing in the Stars and Stripes and all that bullshit. Other than recently in Wakanda, the last time he was a fully realized person he was fighting in the European theatre! He remembers Pearl Harbor! His experiences with nationalism and patriotism are going to be wildly different than almost anyone left alive. And that’s before you add on his trauma and his complicated relationship with Steve. 
 

None of that means his attitude shouldn’t be critiqued or that Sharon was necessarily wrong, but I wish that we got more of a sense that Bucky is shaped by being from a specific time and not just the “past.”

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Gin and Tonic

[paigow]

Zemo must have a dance-off vs Tobey Maguire SpiderMan 3

[dwmarch]

13 hours ago, swanpride said:

I guess there is no relation to Dinah Madani????

Spoiler

Feige wiped his ass with the Darkhold in WandaVision,

I assume this is more of the same. (for those who are wondering, The Punisher Netflix series had an important character named Dinah Madani, whom I am assuming will not be making an appearance here even though she would fit in nicely)

8 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

And he does have a serious point about iconic figures leading to dangerous place (and drawing a direct line between the idolatry of Captain America and Hitler).

Of all the things he said that I thought would get him punched in the face, they somehow let this one slide which was weird. Zemo quickly changed the subject to Red Skull but Red Skull didn't start WWII.

Why didn't the scientist give himself an injection of super soldier serum? I know, don't get high on your own supply and all that but still, it would come in handy in a city entirely filled with bad guys.

We also learned that Sokovia is basically just one city and once that city was destroyed in Age of Ultron, the rest of the country was carved up by the neighbors.

Edited April 3, 2021 by saoirse
Spoiler tag added to WandaVision reference

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Sure, one should never put people on pedestals. Especially not in stone. (I wonder if the show will make a point about statues down the line). But it is also important to remember that while Sam was Cap's best friend, Bucky was always Steve's best friend. He never liked Steve's Cap's persona, he was explicit about not following Cap but Steve into the war. What Bucky puts on the pedestal is not the guy with the shield, it is this kid from Brooklyn who kept pushing him into doing better. That is part of the reason why Bucky doesn't get Sam giving up the shield, because to him the whole Cap persona means nothing, he is into it for Steve.

What made Captain America so important was because Steve was the person he was. And both Bucky and Sam followed Steve into battle, not Captain America. I'll never forget that back in CATWS, Bucky didn't respond to Captain America in his old uniform, but he responded to Steve. It's not just having Captain America that's important, but having the right kind of person playing that part.  Bucky and Sam understand that point. Walker... not so much.

[VCRTracking]

Just now, paigow said:

Zemo must have a dance-off vs Tobey Maguire SpiderMan 3

Or Sam Rockwell's Justin Hammer!

I wish Zemo described Madripoor the way Wolverine does:

Ah that Chris Claremont prose. 

[cambridgeguy]

40 minutes ago, xaxat said:

I wonder if we will see another therapy session. Because what Bucky did is essentially the same as falling off the wagon.

He didn't just fall off the wagon, he should have landed himself in prison for helping Zemo escape.  Sam should be joining him too since he went along with it.  That's what the self righteous of the world will demand - can't have people continuing to ignore the rules and doing whatever they think is right and expecting everyone to be OK with it because they're the good guys, rules and collateral damage be damned. 

[FnkyChkn34]

Bucky is definitely in severe trouble.  He may just have to end up with Sharon on the run at the end.  For all the general public knows, he turned back in to Winter Soldier, beat up a lot of guys in a bar fight, and oh yeah, did it with the guy that he just broke out of maximum security prison in Germany.  The people in the Madripoor nightclub (or whatever it was) were filming him.  The US has to already know; he's surely broken the terms of his pardon.

Could Bucky hear those little metal balls?  Is that how he knew?  They were obviously vibranium or some sort of Wakandan technology, but I didn't really follow how he knew to pick them up and them find her.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

 That's what the self righteous of the world will demand

I don't know about self-righteous. Zemo's a dangerous guy, his dorky dancing aside, and he's already killed a few people now that he's out. I'm kind of excited to see what he'll do next, because he's a non-powered dude and he still took the Avengers down, but how are they going to put him back in his box now that they've let him out? I can't see a pardon in his future, so unless he gets killed before this is over he'll have to go back to prison.

[paigow]

Dinah Madani would be of little use on this mission.

• FBI has no jurisdiction in Latvia or Madripoor
• She barely survived a fight with an untrained shrink

[calliope1975]

10 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Could Bucky hear those little metal balls?  Is that how he knew?  They were obviously vibranium or some sort of Wakandan technology, but I didn't really follow how he knew to pick them up and them find her.

That's why I want to see some of Bucky's time in Wakanda. I also like to think he trained a bit with them and that's where his metal rod spear throwing skills came from. 😁

[paigow]

3 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

That's why I want to see some of Bucky's time in Wakanda. I also like to think he trained a bit with them and that's where his metal rod spear throwing skills came from. 😁

HYDRA probably taught him that... In case he runs out of knives

[RobertDeSneero]

8 hours ago, Lebanna said:

So Sharon is still Agent Carter undercover, right?

Might be more fun if she turned out to be the Power Broker.

[starri]

So, if I get Ayo, I also want her girlfriend Aneka and a World of Wakanda miniseries about their adventures as the Midnight Angels.

I assume Madripoor was tied up with the X-Men rights, but it's kind of fitting that we first visited it here.  It's a good place for a spy movie/show.

[xaxat]

 

[oliverwendell]

34 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Might be more fun if she turned out to be the Power Broker.

That would be a GREAT swerve. Maybe it's no accident that the episode where we first see her is called Power Broker.

[AimingforYoko]

37 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Might be more fun if she turned out to be the Power Broker.

Do we know if she got blipped? If she didn't, I like the odds.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

According to this
 

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Sharon_Carter    

Sharon disappeared in the Snap, but I have no memory of her being listed among the casualties when they were showing the pictures of the lost in the first scenes of Endgame so I don't know if she survived or not.

[tennisgurl]

You know what sounds just like something Steve would do? Respond to a civilian not answering his questions and giving him shit by punching him in the stomach and screaming "Do you know who I am?!" in his face. Oh wait, no that sounds like nothing Steve would ever do, that sounds like something some punk ass thug would do, not the symbol of the best that American has to offer. Walker just keeps proving that he is the wrong guy to be Captain America. Walker might not be a cackling bad guy yet, but I am wondering if he did take some serum, if he did it seems to be bringing out the worst in him. He stomps around demanding answers then gets angry and violent when he doesn't get what he wants, because this is a guy who expects to get what he wants, has always gotten what he wants, and he expects to be respected just because he carries the shield. Its an escalation from the we met last week, so if it just the mantel that's changing him, or the serum? Or is it all just bringing out something in him that was long buried? Steve knew what it was like not to be respected, he knew that you had to earn respect and not demand it because of your weapons or your name, he tried to work alongside other people whenever possible instead of against them*, and he would certainly never try to play the "I'm Captain Fucking America" card like that. Steve was a symbol of the promise of America because of who he was as a person, not the super serum in his veins or the costume he wore. That's one of the reasons why Sam and Bucky are so offended by Walker, he doesn't seem to get that they worked side by side with Steve Rogers, kid from Brooklyn, not Captain America, Star Spangled Man. 

Another good episode, they are really going back to a lot of old plot threads to get resolution. Its great seeing Baron Zemo again and his dynamic with Sam and Bucky is really interesting. I am always a sucker for the old "enemies have to work together for a common goal" plot, and while Zemo is still untrustworthy and has done really awful things, damn it if Daniel Brühl isn't just ridiculously charming. I especially loved him reminding Sam that he is, in fact, an actual Baron with a huge family fortune, and him trying to interject while Sam and Bucky were arguing about him breaking him out of jail while they keep telling him to shut up. Oh, and his and Sam's mutual appreciation for Marvin Gaye. 

Really cool seeing Madripoor, one of Marvels favorite wretched hives of scum and villainy. I was surprised to see it here but its a very appropriate place for a spy story and it all looked pretty cool. Since Bucky was caught on video beating the crap out of those guys at the bar, I guess he is going to be in trouble when he gets home, as will Sam if they see him on video too. Not only did Bucky break his non violence rules, but they also broke a famous criminal out of international prison, so that's not going to be fun to explain. You could tell how much falling back into Winter Soldier territory was hurting Bucky though, especially when Zemo was auctioning him off at the bar, he just looked so resigned. Like even though he knows that this is all for show, he somehow thinks that this is inevitable. He always always going to be someone's tool and he can never be just Bucky anymore. For as much as they snark at each other and get on each others nerves sometimes, its sweet how Sam was clearly worried about him and kept checking in with him. This is why Sam would be a great Captain America, like Steve he is certainly a flawed person but also a person with a strong sense of right and wrong and has a great capacity for compassion. 

Poor Sam, not as up on the art world as everyone else. Interesting seeing new, hardened cynic Sharon, which was left in a lurch after Civil War and is now really salty about everything that went down. I am really surprised that she wasn't pardoned, I thought everyone on Caps team did, I guess she didn't because she stayed on the run? It seems really weird that Steve didn't check on her, but I guess he was busy drop kicking the space time continuum...yeah yeah I promised that I wouldn't complain every week about Steve's out of character Endgame fate and how it renders his character arc useless and raises a billion questions and how unsatisfying it was and...I'm done now I promise. Great that Sharon will be getting some follow up now, she was never really used that well in the past so now maybe she can have some time to shine.

Sam, for the love of god, put your phone on silent during secret undercover missions. 

The Flag Smashers are doing good things for the refugees and many of their goals are quite noble, but I suspect the serum is affecting Carrie and her people, bringing out the most extreme parts of them and causing them to escalate. Murdering those people makes them really the bad guys now, although I think they will end up being the lesser evil next to the Power Broker. Its also unfair of them to blame the people who came back for all of these problems, its not like they wanted to be dusted, none of this is their fault. I wonder if the "lets rebuild" commercial at the start was saying that maybe neither option is great. We have to acknowledge that these people came back and help, but we cant pretend that the Snap never happened, there has to be a way to adjust to a new world without throwing everything into chaos. If Walker did take the serum, or he does later, he and the Flag Smashers could both end up having the same tragic ends. This version of the serum brought out the worst in them and that eats up all of the good intentions that they started with, so Walker the husband and soldier and Carrie the daughter and wanna be art teacher are gone and replaced by violent fanatics. It could tie into the greater discussion about people being symbols, and when the person gets lost behind their mission or their mask. Steve himself often struggled a lot with being both Captain American and being Steve Rogers and feeling like he wasn't living up to his living legend myth, and that often made him feel out of touch with the world and lonely. Now you have all of this talk about who should be the next Captain America and what he should stand for, the masked Flag Smashers, and even Bucky trying to escape The Winter Soldier to be Bucky again. 

Enter Wakanda. Makes sense with Zemo having escaped prison, I am loving how much of the MCU has been showing up and how many story lines are being followed up on. So many factions now, I am super excited to see how the Wakandans figure into this. 

*Escalating Civil War drama notwithstanding I suppose. Use your words guys. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Dandesun]

I really can't stand the character of Wolverine but I was delighted to see Madripoor come into the MCU proper. And I was weirdly happy to see the  Princess Bar cameo.

"I gave the wings back to your ass when you were trying to save his ass from his ass." Now that's a line.

Now I haven't forgotten that Marcus and McFeeley VERY MUCH wanted Steve and Sharon to be living together at the beginning of Infinity War. That they're the ones who insisted that Peggy was just someone 'he kissed once' and then had to turn cartwheels and somersaults not only to have Steve going on about losing the love of his life but had him flee back to the 40s to go be with her again. AND THEN insisted that he was Peggy's husband all along in this timeline while the Russos were all 'no, he created an entirely different timeline by going back.' So Sharon getting the shaft was basically on the writers pendulum bullshit regarding the Carter women. *aggrieved sigh* But I don't mind at all her giving all three of those guys enormous amounts of shit.

However, Zemo trying to lay a guilt trip on Bucky and Sam over not going to the Sokovia memorial or whatever... those two guys had nothing to do with that, Zemo. Neither of them were on the Avengers at the time, Sam joined up AFTER all of that and Bucky was still roaming the world with his backpacks and notebooks staying as far under the radar as possible.

I do think it's funny that Zemo's all salty about 'icons' and 'pedestals' when HE'S A MEMBER OF THE FUCKING ARISTOCRACY. Is Zemo upset that Sokovia got carved up by the neighboring countries or is he upset that Sokovia isn't specifically a part of his barony anymore? Slippery slope there, Baron. That being said, his shooting Nagel was absolutely something I saw coming. If he doesn't want superheroes then he's going to kill the guy who figured out the formula and created a whole new batch. Now I imagine Zemo's going to be very interested in wiping out the Flag Smashers as he did the other Winter Soldiers.

Oh oh oh... John Walker. "Do you know who I am?!" That is so not cool. And so not something Steve Rogers would ever say when trying to get information out of anyone. Or at all.

Bucky using Steve's old notebook is sweet. Sam getting upset that Bucky isn't a huge Marvin Gaye fan is also kind of sweet. "Steve LOVED Marvin Gaye!" "I like Marvin Gaye." As for Bucky liking 40s music, hey, man... so do I. I would certainly love the idea of Bucky really liking Billie Holliday but Steve would have been the Woodie Guthrie guy. His guitar had 'This machine kills fascists' scrawled across it... yeah, Steve would have been ALL OVER that. Especially if he loved Marvin Gaye.

There is more to Sharon in Madripoor though. There's got to be. I'm not saying she's the Power Broker -- though that would be incredible and what an op she's got going if that's the case -- but she was right there when Selby was killed and able to fend off those going after Sam and Bucky. Hell... maybe SHE killed Selby as part of whatever she's got going on. She's in Hightown for a reason and it's not just because Madripoor has no extradition. I look forward to more of that.

Just as I look forward to Ayo. Bucky was waiting for them to show up. You can make the argument that Bucky had less of a problem releasing Zemo because he figured Wakanda would be more than happy to scoop up that little piece for themselves. Zemo has the potential to be a recurring thorn for awhile but I can't imagine him escaping Wakanda for long. He killed their king. They'll do something about that.

As for Zemo's dancing... it just reminded me of Mackie saying that Bruhl was the one who made him laugh the most on set and you just KNOW that was part of it.

[Cthulhudrew]

Sharon and Zemo felt a little off from their MCU presentations here, to me. Like in trying to map them more closely to their comic versions (especially now-Baron Zemo), they changed a bit. Granted, they didn't have that much prior screentime to judge by, but it seemed especially jarring in Sharon's case.

That said, given her last scene in this episode, I am leaning towards the idea that in her case, she's playing a part. Just like she was undercover as Steve's nurse neighbor, she looks like she's in a deep undercover ex-patriate now art dealer role, which requires her to play up her anger at her government disavowing her (which probably does exist somewhat). I don't know if she is still working for the US in that capacity, or if she is working for Wakanda. My guess is the latter, but it's possible she worked out a deal with the CIA to forgive her part in supporting Cap in order to take on this deep cover role and work as an envoy with Wakanda.

I also get the feeling that Zemo's playing a part, too. There was a moment where the camera deliberately played up a shared look between Zemo and Nagle, so Zemo may actually be the Power Broker. I did like that the writers kept the expert HUMINT/psychological profiling tactics he displayed in Civil War as an undercurrent to his interactions with the others, particularly in his first scene with Bucky. He clearly doesn't think much of his new allies, either (cf. his comment to his manservant to offer them "anything that smells" to eat).

Crossing my fingers that if any of Zemo's other henchmen show up in this series, at least one of them is named Erik Josten.

[Chicago Redshirt]

24 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Sharon and Zemo felt a little off from their MCU presentations here, to me. Like in trying to map them more closely to their comic versions (especially now-Baron Zemo), they changed a bit. Granted, they didn't have that much prior screentime to judge by, but it seemed especially jarring in Sharon's case.

That said, given her last scene in this episode, I am leaning towards the idea that in her case, she's playing a part. Just like she was undercover as Steve's nurse neighbor, she looks like she's in a deep undercover ex-patriate now art dealer role, which requires her to play up her anger at her government disavowing her (which probably does exist somewhat). I don't know if she is still working for the US in that capacity, or if she is working for Wakanda. My guess is the latter, but it's possible she worked out a deal with the CIA to forgive her part in supporting Cap in order to take on this deep cover role and work as an envoy with Wakanda.

I also get the feeling that Zemo's playing a part, too. There was a moment where the camera deliberately played up a shared look between Zemo and Nagle, so Zemo may actually be the Power Broker. I did like that the writers kept the expert HUMINT/psychological profiling tactics he displayed in Civil War as an undercurrent to his interactions with the others, particularly in his first scene with Bucky. He clearly doesn't think much of his new allies, either (cf. his comment to his manservant to offer them "anything that smells" to eat).

Crossing my fingers that if any of Zemo's other henchmen show up in this series, at least one of them is named Erik Josten.

I would say in particular for Zemo, but to a lesser extent Sharon, we never got much chance to see the "real" them. 

In Civil War, Zemo was mostly playing roles to achieve his goals. The only thing that was really him was when he attempted suicide and got stopped by the Panther.

Sharon was role-playing as friendly neighbor for most of Winter Soldier, and in Civil War, we got to see her as niece-in-mourning and helper, but not really that much of a person in her own right.

It's certainly possible that there's more to Zemo that meets the eye, but it does seem like it would be a stretch for him to be the Power Broker himself or to really have any connection to the PB's operation. Even if we put aside the implausibility of his running stuff while behind bars, there's the problem of it contradicting his motivation of wanting to avoid the spread of super-powered people for him to be in league with someone recreating the SSS.

[Abra]

54 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Walker might not be a cackling bad guy yet, but I am wondering if he did take some serum, if he did it seems to be bringing out the worst in him and the worst aspects of American military culture in general. He stomps around demanding answers then gets angry and violent when he doesn't get what he wants, because this is a guy who expects to get what he wants, has always gotten what he wants, and he expects to be respected just because he carries the shield. Its an escalation from the we met last week, so if it just the mantel that's changing him, or the serum?

That behavior is not at all uncommon in men, so while I wouldn't be surprised if the show wanted to take the stance that he's taken some dud serum, there are plenty of "normal", non-military men who act exactly the same with far less power and acclaim than what John Walker's been given.