S01.E03: Power Broker

[benteen]

Really good episode, the best one so far.  The return of Daniel Bruhl as Zemo took it up a notch.  He was terrific.  While Sam and Bucky have great chemistry, I like how they have been able to play off of characters like Zemo and Walker.  Madripoor was really well done and I appreciate the world of the X-Men slowly being brought into the MCU.  Didn't expect Ayo to show up but that was a very nice surprise.

Sam bringing his cell phone on a mission was stupid but him trying to improvise was pretty funny.

Edited April 6, 2021 by benteen

[tv echo]

FYI: Marvel's "intel report" on this episode...

'The Falcon and The Winter Soldier': Episode 3 Intel Report
BY CHRISTINE DINH    April 5, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/falcon-winter-soldier-disney-plus-episode-3-intel-report-recap 

[Abra]

New questions popping up in my brain: So what is Karli's connection to the Power Broker and Wilfred Nagel? It's pretty damn bold (and yes, desperate) for her to ask Nagel for help to cure Mama Donya after she'd stolen all 20 vials of the super soldier serum from them. I feel like she wouldn't make those kinds of requests if she didn't have a previous relationship with them. My guess is she had some kind of access to them/the lab - working for them, maybe? And why didn't she just given Donya the serum, especially if she knew she wouldn't get help from Nagel and Donya would die anyway?

[Ottis]

On 4/2/2021 at 6:57 AM, swanpride said:

The add...is it just me or felt other people angry about it, too? Honestly, it was kind of annoying how it pretended that everyone who got snapped had a great life which he or she wants to reclaim.

Not sure it said they had a great life they could reclaim, it felt pretty hopeless to me. Like, "you lost all your stuff because you were gone for 5 years, and we will try to help but really, don't expect much." I love that the show is exploring that. What would have happened to your home, car, possessions, job, etc., and what should be done about it?

On 4/2/2021 at 3:25 PM, Dandesun said:

Oh oh oh... John Walker. "Do you know who I am?!" That is so not cool. And so not something Steve Rogers would ever say when trying to get information out of anyone. Or at all.

I'm disappointed in how they are handling Walker. It would be much more interesting and complex if Walker was genuinely like Steve, and wanted to be the right symbol, but simply couldn't measure up and was struggling. 

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

27 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Not sure it said they had a great life they could reclaim, it felt pretty hopeless to me. Like, "you lost all your stuff because you were gone for 5 years, and we will try to help but really, don't expect much." I love that the show is exploring that. What would have happened to your home, car, possessions, job, etc., and what should be done about it?

See also post-Snap Westview. Although some efforts must have been in place, since there were camps set up for the returnees. A lame duck attempt, maybe, especially if the supplies were being kept away from the people they were meant for, but some folks must have been trying to help.

[Lebanna]

9 hours ago, Ottis said:

Not sure it said they had a great life they could reclaim, it felt pretty hopeless to me. Like, "you lost all your stuff because you were gone for 5 years, and we will try to help but really, don't expect much." I love that the show is exploring that. What would have happened to your home, car, possessions, job, etc., and what should be done about it?

It’s actually got some pretty dark connotations, because that’s basically what happened to most people who were put in concentration camps or interned during WW2. They came back out, thinking they could get their house, car, shop or kids back, only to find that after all those years things had moved on. 

There’s also the connection that Sam and Bucky should have to that experience, they were both deployed (for varying lengths of time, obviously) and after that there’s a big adjustment to coming back and picking up where you left off. I know from family experience that it’s something you sometimes never quite get over. Everything you’ve missed and the anger/distress of those who you left behind, even if they don’t mean or want to be upset, because you did leave them and they missed/needed you. Being snapped is kind of a metaphor for their entire existence and a piece of the military experience that people don’t often want to talk about.

Being a veteran comes in many different forms. Civilians can be veterans of war too, in effect, after a defeat when they are left to resist and have to fight back. After Thanos abused and traumatised the whole universe, everyone is going to carry some damage.

People like Sam and Bucky are really the only ones who could tell them it’s ok to be hurt.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Lebanna

[paigow]

8 hours ago, Ottis said:

I'm disappointed in how they are handling Walker. It would be much more interesting and complex if Walker was genuinely like Steve, and wanted to be the right symbol, but simply couldn't measure up and was struggling. 

Walker needs to be irredeemably undeserving... Like Jack from Agent Carter who got a medal for killing Japanese soldiers that were surrendering peacefully.

[Diapason Untuned]

8 hours ago, Ottis said:

I'm disappointed in how they are handling Walker. It would be much more interesting and complex if Walker was genuinely like Steve, and wanted to be the right symbol, but simply couldn't measure up and was struggling. 

I think they're doing OK. Walker's not a monster, he has his good points but you can see the seeds that will drive him bad.

[VCRTracking]

Extended cut of Zemo dancing!

 

 

[xaxat]

That's. . . pretty much the way I dance.

[Diapason Untuned]

19 minutes ago, xaxat said:

That's. . . pretty much the way I dance.

Me too! 

WE ARE ZEMO!

 

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Me too! 

WE ARE ZEMO!

 

Or dads.

[paigow]

6 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

WE ARE ZEMO!

Are we not men?

Welcome to the Zemolution!

[arc]

On 4/7/2021 at 7:51 AM, Abra said:

And why didn't she just given Donya the serum, especially if she knew she wouldn't get help from Nagel and Donya would die anyway?

Karli said it felt like her body was on fire when she first took it. Maybe she thought Mama Donya couldn't have survived it.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

The serum is not a cure-all. Presumably Karli wanted Nagel to address whatever Donya's underlying condition. Also Nagel could have told her that the SSS would not have cured whatever Donya had. And the bigger question is why Karli hadn't used all 12 doses she had. Presumably, she could find a dozen volunteers she trusted to be down for the cause. You could rationalize her keeping some of the serum as a bargaining chip or in the hopes that more could be made directly from a pure sample...but I don't see a good reason why not to use at least some of the remaining ones.

[Abra]

On 4/9/2021 at 9:43 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

The serum is not a cure-all. Presumably Karli wanted Nagel to address whatever Donya's underlying condition.

The serum was a cure-all - it certainly cured all of Steve's ailments. And Donya's underlying condition was tuberculosis, which should have been an easy cure for the serum.

Speaking of Mama Donya having TB though, why the hell did the show have her lying there in an open room with other patients around, instead of in isolation to protect people from a highly infectious disease? I can hand-wave Karli crying over her, because I'll just assume the serum means she can't get sick anymore, but that would mean only the other Flag Smashers would be safe.

On 4/9/2021 at 5:42 AM, arc said:

Karli said it felt like her body was on fire when she first took it. Maybe she thought Mama Donya couldn't have survived it.

She was already dying so I figured Karli would try it as a last resort, although that sounds like an even worse way to go if it didn't work.

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 minutes ago, Abra said:

The serum was a cure-all - it certainly cured all of Steve's ailments. And Donya's underlying condition was tuberculosis, which should have been an easy cure for the serum.

The OG serum was miraculous, yes. A cure-all? No.

The fact that the OG serum (plus the Vita Rays) could transform Steve into Captain America and wipe away all the stuff that made him 4-F does not mean that a) the OG serum (plus Vita Rays) could cure ALL diseases no matter how advanced they were or b) that Nagel's formulation of the serum would have the same impact as the OG serum, even if that one was a cure-all.

It seems silly that Karli would not have tried using the Nagel formulation if she thought it could reverse Donya's TB. She would still have 11 spares. 

As to the other point, some googling suggests that contracting TB from a corpse seems to be rare unless you are working with the corpse. TB is spread through aerosalization, and unless you are doing something to the corpse, it's not going to be spreading anything under normal circumstances that way.

Here's a link to an embalmer catching TB

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/619259.stm

And here is something from WHO;

https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/risks-posed-by-dead-bodies-after-disasters

Contrary to common belief, there is no evidence that corpses pose a risk of epidemic disease after a natural disaster. Most agents do not survive long in the human body after death. Human remains only pose a substantial risk to health in a few special cases, such as deaths from cholera or haemorrhagic fevers.

Workers who routinely handle corpses may however risk contracting tuberculosis, bloodborne viruses (eg hepatitis B and C and HIV) and gastrointestinal infections (e.g. cholera, E. coli, hepatitis A, rotavirus diarrhoea, salmonellosis, shigellosis and typhoid/paratyphoid fevers):

Tuberculosis can be acquired if the bacillus is aerosolized – residual air in lungs exhaled, fluid from lungs spurted up through the nose or mouth during handling of the corpse.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Bruinsfan]

The funeral was fine, but wasn't Mama Donya in a room with other patients nearby while she was still breathing?

[Sandman]

On 4/2/2021 at 8:46 AM, tv echo said:

Nope. No sympathy for Karli. She intentionally murders people. Also, the Flag-Smashers are just as hypocritical as everyone else. Their motto is "One world, one people," but they're only concerned about a portion of the population.

THIS. This is what's been bothering me about the whole storyline. I can't find much sympathy for Karli because her whole ethos seems to be based on "Nuh-unh! Not gonna share!"

Edited to add: Although the forced resettlement plan of the GRC seems stupidly short-sighted (though not without historical precedent, I suppose).

Also: Zemo's a baron; that means his family is nobility, not royalty. Not the same thing. I hate when tv and movies get that wrong.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Sandman

[MochaJay]

3 hours ago, Sandman said:

Also: Zemo's a baron; that means his family is nobility, not royalty. Not the same thing. I hate when tv and movies get that wrong.

Eh, small country. The upper crust nobility would be just a few families. So his family being 'practically royalty' could mean he's third cousin to the crown.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

13 hours ago, Sandman said:

Edited to add: Although the forced resettlement plan of the GRC seems stupidly short-sighted (though not without historical precedent, I suppose).

I would also point out the questionable morality of keeping much-needed supplies away from the people they were intended for. Even if the GRC sent that stuff with good intentions and fully meaning for the occupants of the refugee camps to have it, the soldiers Karli killed were either hoarding it for their own use or selling it and pocketing the proceeds. Six months of anything shouldn't have gone unnoticed if the GRC was really on top of things and not just going through the motions of helping.