Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[aradia22]

 

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The part was Kelsey Burgess, a local woman who worked at a strip club and appeared in the fourth episode as Harrelson’s character, Detective Marty Hart, is attempting to track down a lead. 

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And while Greer knew her character was supposed to be an exotic dancer, she says the script that she auditioned from never indicated there would be any nudity for the role, since the bulk of the dialogue was set to happen in the club's dressing room. Even when signing the contract, Greer says there was no nudity rider. Typically, nudity riders are included for any actor that agrees to appear nude on camera, allowing them to consent to the type of nudity shown and dictating if that nudity can appear in marketing materials. Plus, actors can sometimes negotiate a higher fee if they agree to appear nude.

Once Greer received the full script, she noticed there was a scene that indicated that her character would be dancing. “I started wondering, ‘Are they going to try something with me? Because this has never been mentioned that there was any nudity in this role,’” Greer explains.

“So, I started asking after that, like, ‘To be clear, there’s no nudity involved in this role, right?’ I kept getting the answer from my agent and from casting—no, that would be absolutely unheard of if they asked you to do nudity after it wasn’t disclosed. There was no rider, there was no negotiating this into your contract, that would not happen, so stop asking about it because it’s making you look amateurish.’ So, I was like, ‘OK, I’m gonna quit worrying about it.’”

But the concern cropped up again when Greer showed up to her wardrobe fitting. Instead of seeing sweats or clothes typical of someone heading into work or getting straight off from work, there were only bikinis and bras. “Again, I kept being told, no, you’re going to have a cover-up, you’re not going to be naked,” she says.

On the day of filming —March 19, 2013—Greer says she arrived at her trailer and sure enough, there was nothing else there besides a set of pasties and a nude thong laid out for her to wear. She put on the undergarments and a robe, and while on the way to hair and makeup, she asked a production assistant for help in sorting out the issue with her costume.

“I told the PA, can you get somebody to come and talk to me because I’m extremely uncomfortable about this costume situation and what’s going to be expected of me. I need to talk to somebody about this before we go any further,” Greer says. “The PA said, ‘OK, I’ll go get somebody to come and talk to you, but in the meantime, you need to go to the makeup trailer.’”

Eventually, she says Fukunaga and another producer pulled a fully made-up Greer outside for a chat to address her concern shortly before filming.

“I was, like, frantic because I don’t want to do that, I don’t want to get naked. I wasn’t expecting to [and] this is not fair. Are you expecting me to do this?” she recalls stressing to the men, saying it felt like a bait-and-switch.

“Cary said to me at that moment, ‘Everybody on this show goes topless. All the women on the show go topless. Your character is a stripper, so you have to,’” Greer says.

Indeed, there was a good deal of nudity on the show, with at least 10 women going topless or partially nude for scenes.

 

According to her, there was no nudity indicated in script for her audition role. But there was implied nudity in the full shooting script. Her agent and casting told her everything was fine. But people higher up seemed to expect her to understand there would be nudity rather required for the role, at least by the time she got the full script, rather than  springing this on her last minute like the examples Jon Rubinstein describes. It does seem like that should have been negotiated into her contract, but I'm not sure the blame for that lies on the director. 

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But Fukunaga’s words rang hollow for Greer because she says that’s exactly the way Fukunaga treated her on the set of True Detective when she refused to go topless, engaging in a tense 10-minute standoff with the director, who she claims tried every bargaining tactic he could think of to convince her to agree to the nudity.

And when Greer wouldn’t back down, citing not having a nudity rider in her contract and her overall feeling of discomfort, she was sent home—her speaking role, she says, handed to an extra with no acting experience, but who had agreed to be nude.

“It was disheartening. It felt bad,” says Greer, who went on to small acting roles in American Horror Story and Magic Mike XXL. “You can’t just treat people like all you are is a pair of tits, that is very hurtful.

“And now, Cary is out here talking about his female characters—it’s like another slap in the face over and over and over. Yes, he has had an illustrious career—that was a star-maker for him, and what happened to me? Nobody cares.”

“That was the human element that was missing that is so hurtful to me, that you could just look at somebody—a young girl who is starting out in her career who doesn’t want to show everything she’s got naked on camera spur of the moment, and you can’t understand that? He knew that he wasn’t doing [it] above board. He knew.” (Multiple requests for comment to Fukunaga’s representatives went unanswered; HBO declined comment for this story.)

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But Greer says Fukunaga did not have Pizzolatto’s self-professed blasé attitude toward nudity when she pushed back about appearing topless, claiming he repeatedly tried to convince her into caving.

“He was trying different things to convince me that it’s not a big deal,” she says. “It [was] going to be very tasteful, or it’s just gonna be really insignificant in the background. I was like, ‘Well, if it’s so insignificant, why is he so insistent that I have to do this?’ It was just on and on and on with no budging.”

Eventually, Greer put her foot down and said she would not be appearing topless, and they would not be able to convince her into doing it, admitting it felt intimidating going up against the director and another high-level producer by herself. The men conceded, saying they would come up with something different and get back to her.

She recalls heading back to her trailer, thinking they would either reconstruct the framing of the shot or photo-double her. Instead, when one of the producers finally turned up to her trailer hours later, he sat down and simply said they had found someone else to play her part. She was fired.

I'm conflicted. They argued for 10 minutes and when her "no" was firm, she was replaced. He didn't force her to do it or blacklist her. From what I know of True Detective season 1, it wasn't exactly a feminist show so if it was a minor speaking role, maybe the nudity was the whole point. Or, more crudely, the role was to be "a pair of tits." She claims the role was bigger than the final edited version but again I'm doubtful that most of her dialogue was that essential in a show like this. I also think it's a little unfair to say that because you worked on a project where the female characters were poorly written you can't then earnestly work on a project where the female characters are better written. Patty Jenkins directed two episodes of Entourage. Does that mean she can't direct Wonder Woman?

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In the final version of True Detective, the character’s dialogue appears to have been whittled down to a few lines in just one scene, showing Carollo as Kelsey touching up her makeup dressed in a sparkly bikini top in the club’s dressing room as some other women mill about topless.

The scene cuts to a close-up of Carollo dancing on the stage, dressed in a skimpy American flag one-piece bikini—an outfit Greer says she also tried on during her wardrobe fitting. (The character is also shown in the bikini in the season’s opening-credits sequence.)

As Carollo begins to undo her top, it cuts to Harrelson’s character trying to bribe the bartender (played by Pizzolatto) for information on Kelsey. In the background, yet still prominently positioned, Carollo is shown dancing topless. The next time the character is shown, she’s dressed in casual clothes heading off in her car to a party, saying no further lines.

Greer says she feels the character was minimized, evident in the fact that her script had a scene with more dialogue between her and Harrelson’s characters before she headed on stage while the actress who replaced her only said a few words in the dressing room.

The small role got smaller, whittled down to the essentials, which evidently was a few lines and being topless. 

[Ailianna]

Except if it was always supposed to be a topless part, why didn't they have a nudity rider? And if all they wanted was "a pair of tits" then why did they bother auditioning an actress whose breasts they never saw? My understanding us that if you're just there to be a tit show, you show the "goods" to get the job. 

[aradia22]

My personal read is that casting (and whoever handles contracts on the production side) handled this poorly by not including a nudity rider and allegedly misleading Greer. Her agent probably knew or suspected but didn't want her to back out. But it makes for a better attention-grabbing headline to use Cary Fukunaga's name. Sure, ideally for Greer, he would have decided her performance was more worthwhile than the nudity. But it really doesn't sound like this was a dignified sex worker role with a great bearing on the plot or lots of witty banter. She was treated as expendable because her part was nonessential.

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Except if it was always supposed to be a topless part, why didn't they have a nudity rider? And if all they wanted was "a pair of tits" then why did they bother auditioning an actress whose breasts they never saw? My understanding us that if you're just there to be a tit show, you show the "goods" to get the job. 

IA about the need for a nudity rider but maybe people assume that if you work for HBO, you just know you're going to be topless if you're a woman if there's any scene that could objectify women--and even if there's no scene that's obvious objectification. (This is definitely a thing with HBO shows.)  That show really struck me because I remember Alexandra Daddario topless in a scene with Woody Harrelson that felt so unnecessary.  It was a sexual scene but I think he was completely dressed and her breasts were out.  How that first season used its women is why I will never extol its virtues as much as some other people do even if there were parts of that were exquisite. 

But the role was a speaking part even if nudity was expected too. There's no need to see breasts in an audition. 

What he should have done is apologized, told her nudity was required for the role and let her go.  There's no need to argue with her for ten minutes.

[Mabinogia]

18 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

What he should have done is apologized, told her nudity was required for the role and let her go.  There's no need to argue with her for ten minutes.

This, because unless she was a huge name she is replaceable. It's sad but true that if she won't take her top off there are about a dozen young hopefuls waiting to take her place who will. There was never a chance they would cancel the nudity just because she asked. It's still a man's world and unless she has a contract that specifically said no nudity, rather than one that just didn't mention it, she wasn't going to get her way here. 

It is sad that HBO is as known for showing us boobs as it is for great storytelling. 

[Vermicious Knid]

New lawsuit filed against Cosby, taking advantage of New Jersey's two year window for older cases for an assault that happened in Atlantic City back in 1990.

 

 

[Picture It. Sicily]

On 10/13/2021 at 10:46 PM, Irlandesa said:

IA about the need for a nudity rider but maybe people assume that if you work for HBO, you just know you're going to be topless if you're a woman if there's any scene that could objectify women--and even if there's no scene that's obvious objectification. (This is definitely a thing with HBO shows.)  That show really struck me because I remember Alexandra Daddario topless in a scene with Woody Harrelson that felt so unnecessary.  It was a sexual scene but I think he was completely dressed and her breasts were out.  How that first season used its women is why I will never extol its virtues as much as some other people do even if there were parts of that were exquisite. 

But the role was a speaking part even if nudity was expected too. There's no need to see breasts in an audition. 

What he should have done is apologized, told her nudity was required for the role and let her go.  There's no need to argue with her for ten minutes.

What she saw as an argument could have been nothing more than a discussion with a director trying to stay on schedule.

[possibilities]

Ten minutes doesn't sound that long to me, to resolve a problem on set. If he'd just fired her instantly, or refused to engage in any kind of discussion, that would not have seemed better. 

[Lugal]

On 10/13/2021 at 7:46 PM, Irlandesa said:

IA about the need for a nudity rider but maybe people assume that if you work for HBO, you just know you're going to be topless if you're a woman if there's any scene that could objectify women--and even if there's no scene that's obvious objectification. (This is definitely a thing with HBO shows.) 

It sounds like they tried to do an end run around her (she has a thong and pasties, so "technically" she's not nude) and steamroll her into it.  The producer said that premium cable demands a certain amount of nudity. But with the examples that Jon Rubenstein cited, they could have been trying to save money (as she could demand more for nudity) or any number of other reasons and I'm sure there's plenty of other actresses in that position who would have gone nude, and they knew that.  The bottom line is if it wasn't in her contract, then she was well within her rights not to do it. 

[SusanM]

On 10/15/2021 at 3:42 PM, possibilities said:

Ten minutes doesn't sound that long to me, to resolve a problem on set.

Or any problem really.  Anyone who can resolve a problem in less than 10 minutes - please come to my house and 'discuss' Issue of the Day with my 15 yr old.

[Vermicious Knid]

Garrison Keillor attempting a comeback. There's too much to quote, but it's a good article. As always WaPo allows five free articles a month. He's going right back to his folksy ways, while still denying and lying about his conduct.

[RealHousewife]

On 10/13/2021 at 9:46 PM, Irlandesa said:

IA about the need for a nudity rider but maybe people assume that if you work for HBO, you just know you're going to be topless if you're a woman if there's any scene that could objectify women--and even if there's no scene that's obvious objectification. (This is definitely a thing with HBO shows.)  That show really struck me because I remember Alexandra Daddario topless in a scene with Woody Harrelson that felt so unnecessary.  It was a sexual scene but I think he was completely dressed and her breasts were out.  How that first season used its women is why I will never extol its virtues as much as some other people do even if there were parts of that were exquisite. 

But the role was a speaking part even if nudity was expected too. There's no need to see breasts in an audition. 

What he should have done is apologized, told her nudity was required for the role and let her go.  There's no need to argue with her for ten minutes.

I think the women who repeatedly take off their clothes throughout the years genuinely do not care if the entire world sees them topless. But I hate that there's so much pressure for actresses to show everything. I don't think I've ever seen a show or movie where the nudity was that damn necessary. Will men not watch these HBO shows without tits? 

 

[letter8358]

Former iCarly star Jennette McCurdy details intense abuse she received from her mother 

Jesus, that's so disturbing....

[Luckylyn]

Hilarie Burton tearfully credits Moira Kelly with giving her the strength to leave the toxic One Tree Hill

It’s sad that there were people trying to pressure her into staying and great Moira gave her the encouragement she needed to leave.

[Spartan Girl]

14 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Hilarie Burton tearfully credits Moira Kelly with giving her the strength to leave the toxic One Tree Hill

It’s sad that there were people trying to pressure her into staying and great Moira gave her the encouragement she needed to leave.

Moira Kelly is good in my book!

[Lugal]

On 10/23/2021 at 5:28 PM, RealHousewife said:

I think the women who repeatedly take off their clothes throughout the years genuinely do not care if the entire world sees them topless. But I hate that there's so much pressure for actresses to show everything. I don't think I've ever seen a show or movie where the nudity was that damn necessary. Will men not watch these HBO shows without tits?

I've worked on photography projects with nude models, and I can testify that they don't.  The only times they get nervous is if there's a chance of getting arrested, or if there's children around.  But it's also agreed ahead of time that nudity (and what level of nudity) is expected.

I don't mind nudity, but it is not as necessary as they seem to think it is, because when they keep trying to shoehorn it in, the results range from distracting to disturbing.

[Scarlett45]

On 10/26/2021 at 10:59 AM, Luckylyn said:

Hilarie Burton tearfully credits Moira Kelly with giving her the strength to leave the toxic One Tree Hill

It’s sad that there were people trying to pressure her into staying and great Moira gave her the encouragement she needed to leave.

I just listened to this episode. I could tell Hilarie was very grateful to Moira and was thankful she could express that. 
 

I also thought how kind it was for Moira to say that she was sorry she wasn’t “looking out” for the younger women more (because when filming OTH she had young kids and treated it like a 9-5) and it’s especially note worthy that Sophia Bush stepped in and said that it wasn’t Moira’s job to protect the younger women on set from harassment. 

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I also thought how kind it was for Moira to say that she was sorry she wasn’t “looking out” for the younger women more (because when filming OTH she had young kids and treated it like a 9-5) and it’s especially note worthy that Sophia Bush stepped in and said that it wasn’t Moira’s job to protect the younger women on set from harassment. 

That is such a stark contrast to some older actresses who claim it's just part of the industry and these young women don't understand the casting couch is just part of what they need to endure. 

I love Moira Kelly even more now. No one could fault her for prioritizing her children. Love Sophia Bush for pointing out that it is not other co-stars jobs to look out for women's safety on set just because they are also women. It is the people in charge who should be making it so women don't feel they have to look out for each other. 

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I also thought how kind it was for Moira to say that she was sorry she wasn’t “looking out” for the younger women more (because when filming OTH she had young kids and treated it like a 9-5) and it’s especially note worthy that Sophia Bush stepped in and said that it wasn’t Moira’s job to protect the younger women on set from harassment. 

That's heartwarming all around - yet simultaneously heartbreaking (and infuriating!) that women keep having to have these conversations among themselves, and are haunted by the "what if"s of their own totally benign decisions, because of the predatory choices men made.

Until this story, I knew nothing about Moira Kelly other than 1) "Toe pick" (The Cutting Edge fans know what I mean), 2) one season as Mandy on The West Wing, and 3) her appearance with Clancy Brown and Laura Palmer Sheryl Lee in that TV movie about the real case where a predator had his adolescent daughter kill his barely-adult wife because he was having an affair with the wife's younger sister (whom he also bamboozled into his plan, telling both of them the wife was planning to kill him) and wanted to live large with her on the life insurance policy he'd taken out on his wife.

But whenever I come across The Cutting Edge now, I'll think fondly of the actor behind the ice queen.

[letter8358]

Natalie Wood's sister claimed Natalie was raped by Kirk Douglas.

Not surprised since it was well-known. Disgusting....

[bobalina]

1 hour ago, letter8358 said:

Natalie Wood's sister claimed Natalie was raped by Kirk Douglas.

Not surprised since it was well-known. Disgusting....

Lana Wood has made accusations that have either been disproven or are unprovoked. Take this with a grain of salt.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, letter8358 said:

Natalie Wood's sister claimed Natalie was raped by Kirk Douglas.

Not surprised since it was well-known. Disgusting....

Is there more to the linked story that I’m not seeing? It’s just one paragraph with zero details. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, bobalina said:

Lana Wood has made accusations that have either been disproven or are unprovoked. Take this with a grain of salt.

What has she said that has been disproven? What does is even mean for an allegation to be unprovoked? 

[CherryMalotte]

Natalie Wood being raped by a Hollywood star was an open secret for years, with several men being spoken of as the one who assaulted her.  Lana from what I understand had said she would only say who the rapist was after he was dead.  After Kirk first passed I was waiting see if she would say anything because really he was the only huge Golden Age male star that fit the time period.     

[bobalina]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

What has she said that has been disproven? What does is even mean for an allegation to be unprovoked? 

Unprovoked means my auto correct hates me. Wood keeps accusing Robert Wagner of murder. There have been at least two and maybe more investigations that have b even unable to call her sister's death anything but an accident.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, bobalina said:

Unprovoked means my auto correct hates me. Wood keeps accusing Robert Wagner of murder. There have been at least two and maybe more investigations that have b even unable to call her sister's death anything but an accident.

Unproven is not the same as disproven. Her official cause of death hasn’t been accidental drowning since 2012 when it was changed to “drowning and other undetermined factors.” The case is still open and those working the case believe that there is more to the story than just being an accident and that Wagner isn’t telling the complete truth. 

Lana Wood believing that Wagner killed her sister isn’t evidence that she’s unreliable when what happened that night doesn’t add up and there were only 4 people on the boat. 

3 hours ago, CherryMalotte said:

Lana from what I understand had said she would only say who the rapist was after he was dead.  After Kirk first passed I was waiting see if she would say anything because really he was the only huge Golden Age male star that fit the time period.     

I think a lot of people were waiting to see if she would reveal something when Douglas died. I have to say that it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth that she waited until he couldn’t respond and is using it to sell books. One thing that has been clear is that Natalie didn’t want it known and the other people she told all respected her wishes. The only reason to reveal it now is for Lana to make more money off her sister. 

[Blergh]

Just because Natalie Wood's surviving sister waited a year and a half after Kirk Douglas's death to have spelled out her claims re what she said she witnessed re the aftermath of the her late teenaged sister going up to Mr. Douglas's place at their dubious female DNA Donor's behest doesn't automatically make it a lie on the surviving Miss Wood's behalf. 

[katie9918]

5 hours ago, Blergh said:

Just because Natalie Wood's surviving sister waited a year and a half after Kirk Douglas's death to have spelled out her claims re what she said she witnessed re the aftermath of the her late teenaged sister going up to Mr. Douglas's place at their dubious female DNA Donor's behest doesn't automatically make it a lie on the surviving Miss Wood's behalf. 

The sister saying it at all doesn’t automatically make it true, either.

 

No one except Ms. Wood and Mr. Douglas will ever know for sure if it was him.

[Irlandesa]

48 minutes ago, katie9918 said:

No one except Ms. Wood and Mr. Douglas will ever know for sure if it was him.

If her sister came down from Kirk's room and claimed to be sexually assaulted by him, he's the guy.  Natalie is a live witness to what happened to her and shared that with her sister and mom who apparently were waiting for her while it happened.

This is unlike the death situation where she wasn't on the boat and the victim in that case is unable to share what happened.  In that case, only Natalie and whoever else was around her when she died would know but I don't think the sister was on the boat at the time.

[bobalina]

3 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

If her sister came down from Kirk's room and claimed to be sexually assaulted by him, he's the guy.  Natalie is a live witness to what happened to her and shared that with her sister and mom who apparently were waiting for her while it happened.

This is unlike the death situation where she wasn't on the boat and the victim in that case is unable to share what happened.  In that case, only Natalie and whoever else was around her when she died would know but I don't think the sister was on the boat at the time.

But we don't know if  Natalie said this. How else is Lana gonna get attention if not on her dead sister's back? Her own career never really took off.

[Blergh]

42 minutes ago, bobalina said:

But we don't know if  Natalie said this. How else is Lana gonna get attention if not on her dead sister's back? Her own career never really took off.

What if the late Miss Wood DID make those claims to her younger sister? IF that's the case, do you think she should just keep quiet  about it forever even though she believes that a crime against a then-minor took place? 

[bobalina]

32 minutes ago, Blergh said:

What if the late Miss Wood DID make those claims to her younger sister? IF that's the case, do you think she should just keep quiet  about it forever even though she believes that a crime against a then-minor took place? 

What good can come of this now? Douglas is dead. His movies are old enough that boycotting will do nothing. He cannot be prosecuted or driven from Hollywood. This  is just Lana harrassing his children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. He also cannot defend himself. This is the action of an attention where and the people greedy for any dirt  real or not.

[Blergh]

18 minutes ago, bobalina said:

What good can come of this now? Douglas is dead. His movies are old enough that boycotting will do nothing. He cannot be prosecuted or driven from Hollywood. This  is just Lana harrassing his children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. He also cannot defend himself. This is the action of an attention where and the people greedy for any dirt  real or not.

As far as I know, Miss Wood is NOT harassing the late Mr. Douglas's surviving family. ALL she is doing is clarifying her claim about what she evidently believes happened with her then-teenaged sister Natalie. 

If it had been one of your relatives whom you had reason to believe had had a crime (of any kind) committed against them, wouldn't you want the truth to come out about it even if both your relative and the criminal were deceased?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, bobalina said:

But we don't know if  Natalie said this. How else is Lana gonna get attention if not on her dead sister's back? Her own career never really took off.

We do know that Natalie told those she was close to who raped her. It was an open secret in Hollywood. Lana is just the first to confirm the rumor. There is no doubt that Lana knows who it was and there is literally no reason for Lana to lie about it being Douglas. It was going to get interest whichever big name movie star it was and neither Kirk or Michael are big enough names at the moment to draw that much attention. The attention is entirely based on the endless fascination with Natalie’s life and death. 

4 hours ago, Blergh said:

IF that's the case, do you think she should just keep quiet  about it forever even though she believes that a crime against a then-minor took place? 

I absolutely believe Lana but I also think the answer is that she should keep quiet about it forever. I’ve thought that ever since she revealed she was waiting for the man to die to tell the truth. What she is doing clearly goes against Natalie’s wishes and benefits no one (other than Lana) now. There is no one left to face any consequences. All it does is open wounds for Natalie’s and Kirk’s children and grandchildren who are completely innocent in this whole drama. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Guest

[Rootbeer]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

We do know that Natalie told those she was closed to who raped her. It was an open secret in Hollywood. Lana is just the first to confirm the rumor. There is no doubt that Lana knows who it was and there is literally no reason for Lana to lie about it being Douglas. It was going to get interest whichever big name movie star it was and neither Kirk or Michael are big enough names at the moment to draw that much attention. The attention is entirely based on the endless fascination with Natalie’s life and death. 

I absolutely believe Lana but I also think the answer is that she should keep quiet about it forever. I’ve thought that ever since she revealed she was waiting for the man to die to tell the truth. It clearly goes against Natalie’s wishes and benefits no one (other than Lana) now. There is no one left to face any consequences. All it does is open wounds for Natalie’s and Kirk’s children and grandchildren who are completely innocent in this whole drama. 

I agree, the story that Natalie Wood was raped as a teen by a major male star has been around a long time and it seems that she did tell multiple people about it while she was alive; as Lana isn't the only person to talk about the incident.  However, Natalie never told the story publicly, ever.   Plenty of people have speculated that it was Kirk Douglas; he fits the description and had a rep for chasing after young starlets.  But, if Ms. Wood was raped (I think she was), her wishes on the subject should be respected, especially by her own flesh and blood.  She didn't want it to become public, it should have been her call, even after her death.

I do object to Lana now coming forth with this information after both parties are long since dead and her sister apparently didn't want the story told.  Lana is doing it to sell her book, period.  Capitalizing on the rape of her long dead sister is a very tacky move, IMO.

Michael Douglas has already been asked to make a statement about this story.  His only comment was 'May they both rest in peace.'  I agree.

[bobalina]

2 hours ago, Blergh said:

As far as I know, Miss Wood is NOT harassing the late Mr. Douglas's surviving family. ALL she is doing is clarifying her claim about what she evidently believes happened with her then-teenaged sister Natalie. 

If it had been one of your relatives whom you had reason to believe had had a crime (of any kind) committed against them, wouldn't you want the truth to come out about it even if both your relative and the criminal were deceased?

No, if the alleged victim and attacker are dead there is no reason to make the situation public. It can help no one. And the attacker is beyond the reach of justice. At that point only the families can be hurt.

[Mabinogia]

I wish Natalie or her sister had come forward while the rapist was still alive to face any kind of repercussions for his crime. I get why Natalie didn't given the generation in which this happened, and now even today (decades later) there are parts of society that still judge women for being raped and coming forward about it. 

I can understand Lana not saying anything while Natalie was alive, as it was Natalie's wish. Were Lana loses any claim to be trying to do the right thing and not just trying to make a profit is in waiting until he was dead because now there really is no point. 

I truly believe, if I were Natalie's daughter, and this came out now I'd be pissed that it was being dredged up now when it will do more harm than good. While I understand wanting justice, there is no justice to be had here unless the rapist was someone still alive and he could be brought to justice. But that isn't going to happen so it's just using a family members pain and victimization to make a profit. So sad. 

[possibilities]

If what she's saying is true, I don't see any reason why she shouldn't say it. How does keeping it a secret help anything? What about the truth mattering? What about the burden to her of carrying the secret? There may be others who were victimized who would be validated by hearing what he did to Natalie. 

I respect Natalie not wanting to have it made public while she was alive, because women who blow the whistle are re-victimized by the usual response. But now that she's gone, why shouldn't the truth come out? Who is actually protected by the cover up or the lie?

We collectively, ALL OF US, including relatives of criminals, need to learn how to face the truth and deal with it, even when it's unpleasant. Otherwise, we will just continue to have a society that sweeps things under the rug and allows more abuse to continue.

[Picture It. Sicily]

It wasn't her story to tell. She's making a buck off her dead sister. Again

[bobalina]

19 minutes ago, possibilities said:

If what she's saying is true, I don't see any reason why she shouldn't say it. How does keeping it a secret help anything? What about the truth mattering? What about the burden to her of carrying the secret? There may be others who were victimized who would be validated by hearing what he did to Natalie. 

I respect Natalie not wanting to have it made public while she was alive, because women who blow the whistle are re-victimized by the usual response. But now that she's gone, why shouldn't the truth come out? Who is actually protected by the cover up or the lie?

We collectively, ALL OF US, including relatives of criminals, need to learn how to face the truth and deal with it, even when it's unpleasant. Otherwise, we will just continue to have a society that sweeps things under the rug and allows more abuse to continue.

Natalie Wood had a right to her privacy and her sister decided to breach that. In a very real way she raped her sister too. Kirk Douglass has the right to defend himself and Lana took that away by waiting until he couldn't sue. And this whole situation is what's wrong with Me Too, it frequently does more damage  than good.

[CrazyInAlabama]

If Natalie had told, then the fact that her own mother arranged the meeting between her 16 year old daughter, and Douglas at the hotel would also be told.    The mother drove her 16 year old daughter to the hotel, and waited outside with the 8-year-old sister, during her daughter's assault.   There is no excuse for the mother's role.  The mother claimed that it would open doors in Hollywood for her daughter. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, possibilities said:

 

If what she's saying is true, I don't see any reason why she shouldn't say it. How does keeping it a secret help anything? What about the truth mattering? What about the burden to her of carrying the secret? There may be others who were victimized who would be validated by hearing what he did to Natalie. 

I respect Natalie not wanting to have it made public while she was alive, because women who blow the whistle are re-victimized by the usual response. But now that she's gone, why shouldn't the truth come out? Who is actually protected by the cover up or the lie?

 

It’s been 66 years and Natalie has been gone for 40 of those years. I just can’t buy this as her being tormented by a secret after all this time. In my opinion Natalie’s wishes should still matter to those she was closest to even after all this time. It also really hasn’t been a secret. Lana has continually used Natalie life and death to bring attention and money to herself. She used the name reveal as a carrot to be dangled and keep attention on herself in a way that was extremely disturbing.

In many ways, I could have understood her coming forward when Kirk died and the tributes were happening. Waiting over a year and writing a book makes it very unlikely that this is about her trauma or the truth rather than profit. 

33 minutes ago, possibilities said:

We collectively, ALL OF US, including relatives of criminals, need to learn how to face the truth and deal with it, even when it's unpleasant. Otherwise, we will just continue to have a society that sweeps things under the rug and allows more abuse to continue.

The sticking point in my opinion is that this reveal isn’t news because it’s unpleasant. It is news because it’s sensationalized and torrid. And the need for the truth should not matter more than the wants and desires of the victims. The truth matters but people matter more. In my opinion, we can’t lose sight of the human consequences of the truth.  To me Natalie’s wishes and the wishes of her daughters are more important than this truth particularly when there is very little benefit to this truth coming out. 

[JustHereForFood]

7 hours ago, bobalina said:

Natalie Wood had a right to her privacy and her sister decided to breach that. In a very real way she raped her sister too. Kirk Douglass has the right to defend himself and Lana took that away by waiting until he couldn't sue. And this whole situation is what's wrong with Me Too, it frequently does more damage  than good.

That's such a gross thing to say.

To be honest, I can kind of understand revealing the name only after he is dead (though I would have preferred it while he was alive and had to face consequences). I am pessimistic enough to think that there would be numerous people dragging her for that too and if he died or had some health problems shortly afterwards, there would be cries of how she is responsible for that. There really isn't any good time to talk about rape, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be talked about.

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

That's such a gross thing to say.

To be honest, I can kind of understand revealing the name only after he is dead (though I would have preferred it while he was alive and had to face consequences). I am pessimistic enough to think that there would be numerous people dragging her for that too and if he died or had some health problems shortly afterwards, there would be cries of how she is responsible for that. There really isn't any good time to talk about rape, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be talked about.

I have no objection to Lana Wood talking about it as a means to advocate for others who have been victimized in this way.  However, she didn't need to name names and she didn't do it to advocate for her sister and the cause of others in similar situations.  She did it to sell books.  I expect that part of her pitch when she shopped the book to publishers is that she would name names.  It seems pretty obvious to me that her motives were not in the least altruistic.  Also, her story also includes the awful truth that her mother pimped her sister out for money.  Kirk Douglas is not the only villain in this saga who cannot defend themselves.  It may be true, but it didn't need to be told this graphically except to benefit Lana's bank account.

If Ms. Wood was in any way burdened by keeping this story to herself for all these years, they were plenty of ways she could have dealt with that.  A good therapist could have helped her work through her feelings and perhaps have helped her figure out a way for something positive to come from this horrific situation without exploiting it for her own benefit.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Rootbeer

[DearEvette]

People have been writing biographies and memoirs about subjects posthumously for umpty-ump years that often bring to light unsavory shit they did while alive.  Why does Kirk get to be exempt from that?

Also, imo, Lana Wood choosing not to definitely reveal that Kirk raped Natalie until after he was dead grants him a level of grace that he didn't afford his victim.  He got to live unpunished and without that stain on his reputation and reap all sorts of accolades and feted as Hollywood royalty throughout his life. 

Even now her revealing it really isn't going to damage his legacy too much.  People who love him won't stop, people who enjoy his movies will still watch them, TCM will still run them. The Golden age and height of his career was 60 years ago so the vast majority of people simply won't care.  There is a recency bias at work where there are too many current stars fucking up in various ways for there to be too much fuss about him beyond the audience her book is meant for.

Edited November 7, 2021 by DearEvette

[possibilities]

If mom pimped her out for money, I certainly think it's fine to drag mom in public. If Douglas raped her, I don't think anyone owes him any consideration, either. You behave that badly, you lose the right to have your own privacy respected.

[Rootbeer]

7 hours ago, possibilities said:

If mom pimped her out for money, I certainly think it's fine to drag mom in public. If Douglas raped her, I don't think anyone owes him any consideration, either. You behave that badly, you lose the right to have your own privacy respected.

I agree with this, however, I also believe that the victims of this crime deserve some grace, too.  Lana is not some random Hollywood reporter, she is Natalie's sister and, from what we heard, Natalie did not want this information made public.  She is allowed her privacy, even in death, IMO.  Lana did not receive this information by doing investigative reporting, she knows what she knows because she is Natalie's sister.  And, if Natalie asked that she not tell the story, then, as her sister, she should respect that.  Lana is not doing this for the public interest or to be a truth-teller for those who have been sexually assaulted.  She is doing it to make money.  Motives matter, IMO.

Kirk Douglas' reputation for mistreating women as well as his multiple extramarital affairs are pretty common knowledge.  Anyone who's done any reading about him is well aware that he was not a good guy for much of his glory years in Hollywood,  Adding this particular story to an already long list is not going to matter.

Remember, Roman Polanski, convicted child rapist, still alive and working; got a standing ovation at the Oscars when he won a few years ago.  Expecting that this particular revelation (one that had been widely rumored and believed for years prior to KD's death) is somehow going to hurt KD's legacy at this point is naive, IMO.

[Blergh]

I wonder if it's possible if Natalie Wood may have told her sister Lana to wait until BOTH she and Mr. Douglas had died to tell the world what she [the younger Miss Wood] seems to have observed. Of course, since Miss Wood was much younger than Mr. Douglas and no one could have predicted her tragic end (nor Mr. Douglas's longevity), it's possible she may have believed the knowledge would have come to light earlier.

 

BTW, has anyone heard any word from the elder Miss Wood's surviving daughters (or even Mr. Wagner) about this claim via Lana or even possibly whether they'd been  told things by Miss Wood herself? I'm not so sure her daughters are angrier at their aunt for sharing her observations about the possible crime against her late mother than they would have been  at the apparent criminal.  

And I,for one, can't help but feel sorry for Lana for not only having an evident witness to the aftermath of the apparent crime but how chilled and creeped out she must have felt as an eight-year-old child to know that their own female DNA Donor was so eager to reap fame and fortune via stardom through  her sister that Mrs. Gurdin was  willing to, at the very least, to totally have allowed a crime to have been committed against said sister without any attempt at justice for the crime or even sympathy for her daughter's trauma (and one can't help but wonder if Mrs. Gurdin might have even deliberately set up her daughter to have the happen to her for the 'connection') .

[AgathaC]

I doubt the girls were told anything by their mother as they were still young when Natalie died. And from everything I’ve read, they do not think highly of their aunt, who has done nothing but try to get money from them and accuse their father (to whom they’re very close) of murder.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

I agree with this, however, I also believe that the victims of this crime deserve some grace, too.  Lana is not some random Hollywood reporter, she is Natalie's sister and, from what we heard, Natalie did not want this information made public.  She is allowed her privacy, even in death, IMO.  Lana did not receive this information by doing investigative reporting, she knows what she knows because she is Natalie's sister.  And, if Natalie asked that she not tell the story, then, as her sister, she should respect that.  Lana is not doing this for the public interest or to be a truth-teller for those who have been sexually assaulted.  She is doing it to make money.  Motives matter, IMO.

This is how I feel. The more I know about Lana the more it seems like she takes after her mother. So this book feels like once again a member of Natalie’s family using her for their own profit. 

1 hour ago, AgathaC said:

I doubt the girls were told anything by their mother as they were still young when Natalie died. And from everything I’ve read, they do not think highly of their aunt, who has done nothing but try to get money from them and accuse their father (to whom they’re very close) of murder.

This. Natasha has written briefly about her Aunt Lana in her own book and it was scathing.

Natalie Wood’s Daughter, Natasha, on Aunt Lana Wood: “It didn’t seem to matter how much money we gave Lana; it would never be enough.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Guest