S01.E08: Previously On

[paigow]

If you want to live a quiet life in retirement, putting your super hero names on the property deed is not helpful. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

21 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

According to Hayward, Vision had a living will, which he claimed Wanda was violating with what she was doing with his body. Wouldn't that also require him being recognized as a person?

Yes, I agree.  See my comment above about not understanding how Vision could be a legal co-owner of the Westview house site.

From a purely pragmatic point of view, it didn't make sense to bury Vision's shell.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Kromm said:

I predict nobody likes this episode, because essentially nothing happened other than a Zombie Vision. 

Well, I liked this episode. We got some apparent answers: 

Why the sitcom theme? Wanda grew up obsessed with them and fixated on them as a place where no matter what the situation things would turn out alright in the end.

Who is Pietro? A magical construct that Agatha made to fool Wanda.

How did sitcom Westview come to be? Wanda apparently created it out of grief over the possible future she and Vision could never have with his death.

Is Vision alive? Hayward was totally lying about Wanda stealing Vision's remains. The Vision's real remains have been reanimated. As to the magical construct that Wanda made of the Vision, it's unclear.

But I think more than that there is characterization and texture. Yes, we literally knew Wanda got radicalized by the death of her parents and then got her powers through a Hydra experiment. But that doesn't take away from seeing more of it happening IMO.

[swanpride]

Not sure about Pietro...that's what I thought beforehand, but honestly, Agatha barely knew with what she was playing around. She might have actually done more than she planned considering that the whole first scene was about establishing that she is playing around with power she barely understands.

And there are so many unanswered questions...from where did Wanda get the deed?

What exactly was Hayward's plan? He basically seemed to needle Wanda into doing something, plus, his wand decoration is very suspicious.

If Wanda can only turn stuff which is already there in other stuff, how was Hayward able to track vibranium? It had to come from somewhere after all....

What is the deal with the twins? I mean they apparently weren't part of Agatha's plan (other than using them to blackmail Wanda), but someone really pushed Wanda into creating them. If they are actually real.

And why the Hexagon?

 

[AimingforYoko]

Just echoing all the love for Elizabeth Olsen, what a showcase.

So Agatha was just drawn by the chaos magic and manipulated events to figure out what was what. Let's see what her (sorry) endgame is.

[vb68]

4 hours ago, Avabelle said:

But we’d have seen something if she stole him - she walked back to her car empty handed and later on vision seemed to be created from the yellow light coming from her.

 

 

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I think something else is going on with Vision and he's not just a construct of Wanda's because he did seem to have autonomy and she couldn't control him after the first 3 episodes. Hayward was also tracking Vision via Vibranium decay. 

 

 

That's what I was trying to say in my early am haze. I didn't mean to suggest Wanda consciously stole anything. Obviously she didn't.  Just the way Vision was created was confusing and a little ambiguous to me.  I wasn't sure where the Vibranium came from. 

And I still don't buy Hayward being smart enough to hold all the threads together without tripping over himself.

Edited February 26, 2021 by vb68

[Llywela]

One episode left and lots of loose ends still to tie up! All that creepy 'for the children' chanting that seemed to precipitate Wanda's creation of the twins - what was all that about? Just a manifestation of Wanda's subconscious, or something more?

I'm a little confused now about the early sequence of events, because Agnes seemed so at home in Westview in the first episode, as if she'd genuinely been there for years, whereas Wanda was still in a definite 'just moved in' state of confusion. I guess we are meant to assume Agatha is just that good of an actress? That she used her magic powers to familiarise herself with the territory quite rapidly while Wanda was still cocooned with Vision suppressing all other memories?

I didn't know there was a reincarnated White Vision in the comics, but still suspect his colourless state will have meaning within the context of the show, given how heavily they've leaned into their colour-coding up till now.

[Wolfprincess]

Oh man, so many thoughts about this episode....

For one, I always had a feeling that the situation in Westview was one Agatha happened upon or maybe was caught up in.  It seemed too obvious that she played some kind of key role of the creation of the hex or something along those lines...  Of course, I mostly dismissed my initial theory because of the show's clever misdirection.  Sneaky writers 😃 ...

Ugh, I am kicking myself for not even considering that Hayward's "footage" of Wanda's "attack" on SWORD was tampered with.  Duh.  I mean anyone can edit surveillance if they have the right tech, and he didn't even do that really.  He just presented it with fake context and misdirection.

I must admit that the reason Westview is the site of the hex, that Vision and her were going to build their house and life there, was surprising and touching.  It seems very plausible and makes the story more poignant.

So many more angles to this story, I definitely need to rewatch this episode.

 

 

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Wanda's way overdoing it on making Westview over is because she finally snapped,

Notice Wanda's power explosion was in two very distinct steps.  

First she created just the House.

Then there was a momentary, almost unnoticeable pause. But you can see it if you rewatch. The red energy subsides a bit after she makes the house, and her body changes position. 

THEN only after that did she lose control and take over the whole town.  

It seems like the first part was a conscious choice, then she broke, and the second part wasn't. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

30 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Not sure about Pietro...that's what I thought beforehand, but honestly, Agatha barely knew with what she was playing around. She might have actually done more than she planned considering that the whole first scene was about establishing that she is playing around with power she barely understands.

And there are so many unanswered questions...from where did Wanda get the deed?

What exactly was Hayward's plan? He basically seemed to needle Wanda into doing something, plus, his wand decoration is very suspicious.

If Wanda can only turn stuff which is already there in other stuff, how was Hayward able to track vibranium? It had to come from somewhere after all....

What is the deal with the twins? I mean they apparently weren't part of Agatha's plan (other than using them to blackmail Wanda), but someone really pushed Wanda into creating them. If they are actually real.

And why the Hexagon?

 

Presumably Vision gave it to her at some point in the two-ish years between Civil War and Infinity War. Where did he get the money? Why Westview of all places? Dunno, doesn't matter too much to me.

Seems like Hayward has been improvising. He presumably only brought Vision 2.0 to the area relatively recently because otherwise it would have been caught up in the Hex expansion. There was not time to move it. But then again, I am not sure how there would have been time to move the drone. I am not sure what you are referring to when you say "wand decoration."

I think your premise that Wanda can only turn stuff which is already there into other stuff is wrong. She apparently can conjure vibranium out of thin air.

There are still two broad possibilities: Either Wanda is largely in control of the Hex and all that we've seen or someone/thing else is. If Wanda is in control, the push for children could just be her trying to get to her idea of a happily ever after: a husband with a good steady job, two kids, a safe suburban house, where all the hijinks are resolved in a half-hour, and nobody dies. The American dream as she saw in all those TV shows growing up.  If it's an external force beyond Agatha -- who despite the theme song doesn't not seem to have been behind everything -- it still may want to draw on her magic as expressed in creating the kids out of nothing. 

No clue if the hex means anything beyond the play on hex/hexagon. It's possible that it's related to their being six Infinity Stones somehow.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

36 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Is Vision alive? Hayward was totally lying about Wanda stealing Vision's remains. The Vision's real remains have been reanimated. As to the magical construct that Wanda made of the Vision, it's unclear.

I....think so? I wasn't sure before, because of his twice-over death in Infinity War, but now I'm kind of leaning in the opposite direction. When Wanda finished refurbishing Westview and he was with her in the house, he recognized her and said 'welcome home', so he retained his memory of who she is to him and that they were together as a couple. Because he was perfectly calm and not all traumatized from being resurrected, since even if he is a synthezoid he has emotions and can feel things. If the Vision who is likely on his way to the house now is the 'real' Vision and the one Hayward is planning to unleash in the next episode is just a facsimile, maybe she'll meld them together somehow? I actually hope that happens, and maybe that Hayward ends up killed by his own creation. His inability to even for a moment treat her like the grieving widow she is or at least a human being with feelings makes him just as much of a machine as the one he pieced back together, because that's not the real Vision.

Regardless, the Vision who we saw in the last episode is independent of Wanda, since he was interacting with Darcy entirely on his own and gaining new insight into what's happening, though he doesn't know about Agatha yet. If he's not alive in the literal sense, he's not a construct either, IMO.

Question for comics people, and you can either spoiler it or put it in the comics thread: is Agatha immortal? Because they gave the year when the coven was taking her out to be burned as 1683 or something.

[wlk68]

Director Hayward is a douchebag of mammoth proportions.

 

That's it. That's the post. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by wlk68

[Chaos Theory]

Well we got another end credits scene....and anyone else not surprised that Director Hayward is a big fat liar?

This was mostly just one big recap....but in a good way.  You know like Agatha says.  "So to recap Parents dead.  Brother dead.  Vision dead.  What happened when he wasn't there to pull you back from the darkness, Wanda?"    I really did like that she didn't actually steal Vision's body and this was all just a wish she made out of despair.   And that it might have actually been unintentional at first.  

Chaos magic.

 

"This is chaos magic, Wanda.  And that makes you the Scarlet Witch.”

It is almost a guarantee that the season will end with “to be continued with “whatever movie comes next only in movie theaters which I haven’t gone to see in years.  Stupid Disney.”  

 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Chaos Theory

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Question for comics people, and you can either spoiler it or put it in the comics thread: is Agatha immortal? Because they gave the year when the coven was taking her out to be burned as 1683 or something.

My recollection is that comics Agatha is also from the time of the Salem Witch Trials. So at least long-lived.

I assume both she and WV Agatha can be killed. 

[VCRTracking]

I didn't think "I am Iron Man" could ever be topped as a closing line but I was wrong.

[notagain]

West view before the snap must have been idyllic and sitcom-like, very representative of the marketed “American Dream”. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by notagain

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

According to Hayward, Vision had a living will, which he claimed Wanda was violating with what she was doing with his body. Wouldn't that also require him being recognized as a person? Of course, Hayward also lied (surprise) about Wanda stealing the body, which they were taking apart to keep him from being used as a weapon again (another lie), so he's full of shit regardless and must have used only part of the footage to make it look like she took the body when she left. Dick. Dick. Dick.

It occurs to me that a good bit of this could have been avoided if he had just let her bury Vision, or if not bury him then have some kind of ceremony where she could have honored his memory. He died a hero, and then he ends up in pieces in some lab? And I'm pretty sure they weren't even going to let her see him, although we didn't see how she found out where he was. I'm shocked she didn't set the place on fire or something.

The Wanda who went up to the front desk did not have the attitude of someone who found out her soul mate's body was stolen by a shady government agency for nefarious means, which implies that someone (Tony, the Avengers, Cap?) gave SWORD his body voluntarily but probably didn't know he was being dissected.  Although if that's really the case then whoever OK'd it in the first place was unbelievably naive, especially once Maria died. 

[Keywestclubkid]

26 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Question for comics people, and you can either spoiler it or put it in the comics thread: is Agatha immortal? Because they gave the year when the coven was taking her out to be burned as 1683 or something.

in the comics yes she is "Immortal" or has a super super super slow ageing process  .. she was around hundreds of years before Atlantis sank

Edited February 26, 2021 by Keywestclubkid

[Featherhat]

 

I mean does this look like the face of a government agency just trying to do its best after several insane catastrophes? I think Hayward has to be both a moron and nefarious to think this is going to work the way he wants and be what's best for the world even in his reality. It's even more dumb than Tony's original Ultron idea. 

This guy looks like a mix between The Night King and Ultron and he's smarter than *you*. 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Featherhat

[Kromm]

27 minutes ago, notagain said:

West view before the snap must have been idyllic and sitcom-like, very representative of the marketed “American Dream”. 

They didn't say it, but there is an implication it was probably a nice place when Vision bought the house, and the chaos post snap destroyed the economy of the town. 

[absnow54]

Where is Westview in relation to the Avenger complex? I'm guessing within commuting distance. 

[Llywela]

37 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think your premise that Wanda can only turn stuff which is already there into other stuff is wrong. She apparently can conjure vibranium out of thin air.

I think that both things are true. I think she can turn stuff into other stuff, because that's the simplest way to make sure everyone in town is always in tune with whatever scenario she has playing out currently (hence the transformation of Monica's clothes into various different outfits), and I think she can conjure matter out of thin air, which is how she created both Vision and the twins.

35 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I....think so? I wasn't sure before, because of his twice-over death in Infinity War, but now I'm kind of leaning in the opposite direction. When Wanda finished refurbishing Westview and he was with her in the house, he recognized her and said 'welcome home', so he retained his memory of who she is to him and that they were together as a couple. Because he was perfectly calm and not all traumatized from being resurrected, since even if he is a synthezoid he has emotions and can feel things. If the Vision who is likely on his way to the house now is the 'real' Vision and the one Hayward is planning to unleash in the next episode is just a facsimile, maybe she'll meld them together somehow? I actually hope that happens, and maybe that Hayward ends up killed by his own creation. His inability to even for a moment treat her like the grieving widow she is or at least a human being with feelings makes him just as much of a machine as the one he pieced back together, because that's not the real Vision.

Regardless, the Vision who we saw in the last episode is independent of Wanda, since he was interacting with Darcy entirely on his own and gaining new insight into what's happening, though he doesn't know about Agatha yet. If he's not alive in the literal sense, he's not a construct either, IMO

I think both Visions are real. The one Hayward has is the original Vision, re-assembled and then reanimated using Wanda's power - how much of his original personality and sentience remain after all that remains to be seen. And then Wanda's Vision is a new creation, spun out of the power of her grief and memories and given new life, fully imbued with his original personality and sentience, but whether or not he is capable of surviving outside the Hex also remains to be seen.

Ideal solution: slap the two of them together to create a fully functioning Vision once again! But how often do we get the ideal scenario in this universe?

15 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

The Wanda who went up to the front desk did not have the attitude of someone who found out her soul mate's body was stolen by a shady government agency for nefarious means, which implies that someone (Tony, the Avengers, Cap?) gave SWORD his body voluntarily but probably didn't know he was being dissected.  Although if that's really the case then whoever OK'd it in the first place was unbelievably naive, especially once Maria died. 

Vision's body was probably signed over to SWORD before Maria died, at a time when the organisation (designed specifically to observe and respond to sentient weapons, not to create and deploy them) would have been seen as the ideal storage solution for a former Avenger whose remains could not be allowed to fall into the wrong hands. Captain Marvel would have vouched for Maria's integrity. Maria would have promised to bury Vision's remains deep enough that they could never be misused. But then time moved on. The Avengers were otherwise occupied trying to keep the world from falling apart. Captain Marvel was mostly off-world. Maria's cancer came back and she died...and the guy appointed to fill her shoes wasn't quite the stand-up guy everyone believed he was. Three years down the line, I doubt it occurred to anyone when he was appointed that he might pull Vision's body out of storage and start experimenting on it. But he's a sneaky son of a bitch and took advantage of the lack of oversight that would have been a hangover from the implicit trust invested in Maria. I'm guessing.

[Chaos Theory]

37 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

 

I mean does this look like the face of a government agency just trying to do its best after several insane catastrophes? I think Hayward has to be both a moron and nefarious to think this is going to work the way he wants and be what's best for the world even in his reality. It's even more dumb than Tony's original Ultron idea. 

This guy looks like a mix between The Night King and Ultron and he's smarter than *you*. 

 

I think that’s the point.  Hayward is the guy left after The Snap.  Everyone else is either dead, missing, or early retired.   He basically rose to Director because he was the only one left in a universe of untold dangers and in his paranoid mind you can’t even trust The Avengers because Wanda has powers and let’s face it a shady as hell history.   Hayward would see her as a threat regardless and would want to control, imprison on kill her outright.   Having her run around free must be unthinkable for him.  
 

So he needs a weapon and there is no way he would consider Vision a person especially if it meant getting to or at Wanda.  

Edited February 26, 2021 by Chaos Theory

[Racj82]

6 hours ago, Kromm said:

I predict nobody likes this episode, because essentially nothing happened other than a Zombie Vision. 

Of course some people hate it as some people have done for the whole series. But, also you can't say nobody will like it because that's not possible.

People also need rearrange their thoughts if they think nothing happened here. It wasn't plot, plot, plot like tons of people crave. 

But, the series stopped to just be about Wanda. The series stopped to examine the why of it all that has been asked this whole time. 

Why was she in Westview?

How did this happen?

Is Vision an reanimated corpse?

Why is Agatha here?

Why did Wanda raid the headquarters?

How exactly did Wanda and Vision start bonding in the first place?

Why the TV shows?

Tons of answers. Far from nothing. 

 

 

[AimingforYoko]

18 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Where is Westview in relation to the Avenger complex? I'm guessing within commuting distance. 

Yeah, it seems like a NYC bedroom community.

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, we dropped the whole "sitcom within the show" bit at last, but I did like the explanation over why that played such a huge part in Wanda's creations.  It makes sense, because I've heard that older American sitcoms or shows can end up developing a huge following in foreign countries; especially developing or poorer ones; and it's believable that it was something Wanda had found memories of with her family before everything went to hell, so it would end up playing into her creations of a "perfect world."  Nice reveal, I think.

So, Agatha was a witch dating all the way back to the infamous Salem Witch Trials era, and her involvement here is because she wants to discover why Wanda is so powerful compared to every other witch out there.  And she certainly has no issues doing what it takes to get that info, including making Wanda take trips down memory lane and reliving all of the heartaches or using her magic to strangle Wanda's kids in front of her.  Kathryn Hahn is crushing it as expected.

But even then, I still think I'd take Agatha over Hayward, who is continuing to show what a massive dick he is.  He pretty much flat-out lied about Wanda stealing Vision's body, and really seems to be using her as an excuse to unleash his "new weapon."  I'm sure in his mind, he probably thinks he is getting rid of a "future threat" and what he is doing is best for the country or some shit, but all he has done is made things worse.  At the barest minimum, he better get a demotion or pink slip when it is all said and done, but I'm hoping his punishment is so much worse than either of those two.

The Wanda/Vision scene in the Avengers bunker was fantastic.  It is interesting that despite arguably being more machine than human, Vision seems to have a handle on human emotions better than most.

The real Westview certainly didn't handle the Snap/Blip very well.  The whole wiping out half of all life "totally" made the galaxy a better place, right, Thanos?  Jerk.

Already accepted that this show will likely be ignored come Emmy time (outside of some tech awards), but hot damn, does Elizabeth Olsen deserve recognition.  One of the best performances on any television show right now.

Can't wait to see how this all wraps up next week!

[tennisgurl]

Seriously, if Elizabeth Olsen doesent get an Emmy, can I just give her one myself? She really is doing such amazing work and this is a real powerhouse of a performance. Her slowly realizing what is really going on and being forced to walk through her various traumas was just so real, no matter the fantastical circumstances. So because superpowers and severe emotional trauma are never a great combination, Wanda accidently created this whole town based on her coping mechanism of watching sitcoms, going back to her childhood, and her desperate desire to be with Vision again. So were the commercials her subconscious trying to tell her that this isnt real? Her brief moments where she seemed to know something was up was her realizing something was wrong, then going back into denial? 

I know that this is all about getting Wanda to really deal with her grief and acknowledge that Vision is gone and it is probably a cheat to have him come back at the end, but...damn it I just want Wanda and Vision to get a happy ending! Hasn't Wanda already been through enough, cant she have this? Cant he have this? Cant I have this? 

They really are going full on Wicked Witch with Agatha, complete with Salem backstory, witch costume, a familiar, and all kinds of runes and magical spells. I still remember when the MCU was almost afraid to say the word magic, and it was all ambiguous "but its actually just weird alien science!" but now they are just full on magic witch covens and spells and chaos magic. 

Of course, Agatha might be my favorite villain, but Hayward is the real asshole in all of this. What an absolute dick, I feel very justified in pinging him as a bad guy from the first time he mentioned sentient weapons. He better get his by the end of the show, and he doesn't just keep showing up like a bad penny like Ross. 

Just so much to unpack, even in what has probably been the most straightforward episode of the show. We got lots of answers, but there are still a ton of questions left and a whole lot to wrap up in one more episode. I am so conflicted, I cant wait to see how they wrap this all up and where it takes Wanda and the MCU, but I love this show so much, I don't want it to end. Good thing I don't have magic powers and have no ability to make fantasy worlds where shows I love last forever...

"The Scarlett Witch"

SHE SAID THE THING!

[Oreo2234]

Quote

Did the infinity stone wake up the mutant gene?

I don't know if she's supposed to be a mutant but the episode seemed to imply that she already had some type of power or capacity for magic and that's why Stark's bomb didn't go off. 

[steelyis]

2 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

We are seeing the town post snap, so it's possible that it was in better shape before Thanos messed everything up. (remember the part of San Francisco with the trash piled up in Endgame).

I was so keyed up from the previous scenes, I didn't even notice how lifeless and listless a lot of the Westview denizens were! Good catch!

28 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

 

I mean does this look like the face of a government agency just trying to do its best after several insane catastrophes? I think Hayward has to be both a moron and nefarious to think this is going to work the way he wants and be what's best for the world even in his reality. It's even more dumb than Tony's original Ultron idea. 

This guy looks like a mix between The Night King and Ultron and he's smarter than *you*. 

 

And Hayward is so, so dumb, which all but guarantees his scheme is going to go FUBAR!

 

Guys. Guys. I just need Wanda to come out of this happy, okay?

Seeing all the tragedy she suffered back to back was so damn hard to watch. Like, give home girl a break! Let her raise her magic-spawn and snog her tall, dorky robot husband in peace! Is that too much to ask?

[AimingforYoko]

9 minutes ago, Oreo2234 said:

I don't know if she's supposed to be a mutant but the episode seemed to imply that she already had some type of power or capacity for magic and that's why Stark's bomb didn't go off. 

Also it was implied in Ultron that Wanda and Pietro were the only survivors of contact with the Mind Stone.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

49 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

 

I mean does this look like the face of a government agency just trying to do its best after several insane catastrophes? I think Hayward has to be both a moron and nefarious to think this is going to work the way he wants and be what's best for the world even in his reality. It's even more dumb than Tony's original Ultron idea. 

This guy looks like a mix between The Night King and Ultron and he's smarter than *you*. 

 

Show of hands for who thought, "That's how Cyberdyne got started."

[VCRTracking]

First "Professor Hulk", now the "White Vision". If Speedball shows up it'll be my entire 9th grade comic book reading experience.

[calliope1975]

I cried like 4 times. That was a well done, and heartbreaking, character backstory. I'm gonna include Agatha in there, too. The "I can be good" "No, you can't" was harsh. And I noticed Agatha said she wasn't doing whatever she was doing on purpose, but that the spells and dark magic just responded to her. Kinda like Wanda. Two incredibly powerful ladies. Is it wrong that I want a team up on Director Dickhead?

Also, Agatha was cracking me up at her irritation with Kid Pietro's loudness. I say again, Kathryn Hahn is a gift. 

So much good stuff, I don't even know where to begin. I love the idea that Wanda had abilities all along and her exposure to the stone amplified them. Bummed we won't get to see what that meant for OG MCU Pietro. As for where Vision got his money, I can imagine Tony and Cap discussing if he deserves a salary and them deciding since he's an official Avenger, he gets paid, too. 

I've been staying with my mom for several months since I can work remotely because of the pandemic (and my former apartment was also Cold War chic) and we've been watching this together. (Though due to spoilers, I've been watching the episodes in the morning and doing a rewatch with her.) My dad died about a year and a half ago, and she's been struggling a lot. I don't know if this episode will be helpful or not. But I thought the way Vision described death and grieving was lovely. 

 

 

 

[absnow54]

25 minutes ago, Oreo2234 said:

I don't know if she's supposed to be a mutant but the episode seemed to imply that she already had some type of power or capacity for magic and that's why Stark's bomb didn't go off. 

Did anyone make any offhand remarks about Pietro's speed during the pre-bomb scene? I can't remember.

[Kromm]

25 minutes ago, steelyis said:

Guys. Guys. I just need Wanda to come out of this happy, okay?

I'm still pretty conflicted on that. First, there's no getting around the fact that she enslaved hundreds, or probably thousands of people.  Doing that to ONE person would be bad enough. 

Even if we guess she didn't mean to (implied by the two step explosion of magic), does that erase the idea of consequences? 

On top of that, the story arguably might be less powerful if her losses are just washed away.  

That said, it's pretty suspicious that we go into this with a functioning Vision body and a somewhat functioning Vision mind. It's pretty clear a joining of them by the end is an obvious resolution. 

It might be interesting if Vision is remade, but Wanda has to go to prison anyway. Or maybe a mental hospital. 

Even Hayward seemingly manipulating her into going to that town, priming her emotions then having that file dropped in her car, doesn't excuse her actions. They'd both be guilty to some degree. 

[AimingforYoko]

9 minutes ago, Kromm said:

It might be interesting if Vision is remade, but Wanda has to go to prison anyway. Or maybe a mental hospital. 

Wanda would make that deal in a nanosecond.

[Featherhat]

16 minutes ago, Kromm said:

I'm still pretty conflicted on that. First, there's no getting around the fact that she enslaved hundreds, or probably thousands of people.  Doing that to ONE person would be bad enough. 

Even if we guess she didn't mean to (implied by the two step explosion of magic), does that erase the idea of consequences? 

On top of that, the story arguably might be less powerful if her losses are just washed away.  

That said, it's pretty suspicious that we go into this with a functioning Vision body and a somewhat functioning Vision mind. It's pretty clear a joining of them by the end is an obvious resolution. 

It might be interesting if Vision is remade, but Wanda has to go to prison anyway. Or maybe a mental hospital. 

Even Hayward seemingly manipulating her into going to that town, priming her emotions then having that file dropped in her car, doesn't excuse her actions. They'd both be guilty to some degree. 

I can be on Wanda's side and feel absolutely terrible for her and want her to find a way to life happily and still think what she did was wrong and that she should face consequences. I don't think they're going to sweep it under the rug at all to since she's not going to DS2 to be a fun Avenger cameo. 

I don't think this ends happily or with everyone lining up to give Wanda a hug and cookie but I don't think a padded cell or The Raft is necessarily the right place for her either, even though she should face the music. She needs somewhere where she can receive counselling, where she can learn to control her powers from experienced people and where she definitely can't hurt anyone else. Kamar Taj perhaps? I suppose Wanda could agree to a secure mental health facility voluntarily and Strange and Wong have to break her out once the shit hits the fan.

I don't think they're ramping up for full on villain arc for her, despite the number of people she held hostage. 

I thought Hayward might be trying to goad her because he just seemed so 100% unnecessarily a dick but then if he sees both Wanda and Vision as weapons and their love as not real then he has no need to be a decent person (in his eyes anyway). I have a feeling we're missing a couple of scenes from the flashbacks, we'll see. 

[lovett1979]

1 hour ago, Oreo2234 said:

I don't know if she's supposed to be a mutant but the episode seemed to imply that she already had some type of power or capacity for magic and that's why Stark's bomb didn't go off. 

Also, the Hydra scientists said that other people had died when they exposed them to Loki's Staff/the mindstone. The fact that she (and Pietro) survived means that there's something special/different about them already.

Also, regarding the Hydra scene - when they were reviewing that security footage, there was a cut in it. It jumped to her on the floor. Very similar to how the Westview TV broadcast had jump cuts during the times that Wanda rewound the reality.

[Chicago Redshirt]

So despite the "Agatha All Along" song, this episode makes it seem more like Agatha showed up after the Hex and has no real idea of what caused it but just is looking to take advantage of it.

Assuming that is the case and that there is no Big Bad lurking behind the scenes manipulating Wanda in the creation or perpetuation of the Hex, I am conflicted. I can recognize that Wanda has not been in her right mind all this time and grief can do that. But at the same time, it seems like she would have knowingly let thousands suffer indefinitely if she could have gotten away with it. 

Grief or no grief, that's pretty evil.

[arc]

Do arms manufacturers really slap their logos on their bombs? Why? It’s not like front line forces make the buying decisions. And I woulda thought customers would like their own names on their purchases anyways. I also think Wanda and Pietro should’ve blamed the actual bombers more than the arms manufacturer. But apparently the bomber was the US and I can see why a mainstream blockbuster franchise would shy away from even implying that anyone anywhere would have a valid reason to hate the US.

3 hours ago, paigow said:

If you want to live a quiet life in retirement, putting your super hero names on the property deed is not helpful. 

But unlike, say, Peter Parker (that “oh, we’re using our made-up names” line in Infinity War was perfect), “The Vision” might actually be Vision’s legal name.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

11 minutes ago, Kromm said:

It might be interesting if Vision is remade, but Wanda has to go to prison anyway. Or maybe a mental hospital. 

Even Hayward seemingly manipulating her into going to that town, priming her emotions then having that file dropped in her car, doesn't excuse her actions. They'd both be guilty to some degree. 

Why 'has to'?

I'm not being snarky. I don't get this idea that Wanda should be punished, just like I don't get the apparent thirst for her to be the real villain. If we look at the MCU as a whole, and I've said this before but whatever, there's a whole long-ass list of "should be punished" people who have either skated as far as consequences go or are deemed not accountable for their actions due to extenuating circumstances. It seems kind of Something to single Wanda out over over, whether it's about her having agency and free will or needing to face the penalty for this. Especially when we've mostly been there and done that already when she was in the Raft before Steve showed up to set her and the others free. As has been noted, she's been curb-stomped on the same level as Thor. I guess without fat "jokes" that means we have to take this seriously?

Okay, that was a little snarky.

 

4 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I don't think this ends happily or with everyone lining up to give Wanda a hug and cookie but I don't think a padded cell or The Raft is necessarily the right place for her either, even though she should face the music. She needs somewhere where she can receive counselling, where she can learn to control her powers from experienced people and where she definitely can't hurt anyone else. Kamar Taj perhaps? I suppose Wanda could agree to a secure mental health facility voluntarily and Strange and Wong have to break her out once the shit hits the fan.

Really, this just underlines that the remaining Avengers left Wanda swinging in the breeze. As much as I love Carol, she's not an Avenger and is probably off-world anyway and too far away to help. IMO it should be taken into account that she seemed okay enough in her last movie appearance, and she might have gone on being okay enough even without Vision, but her trip to Westview was the catalyst for what came next. Seeing where their house would have been if everything hadn't turned to crap was the trigger on a gun that was loaded from the second she left the SWORD lab without Vision's remains. His gentle kindness towards her is why she came back from the edge after Pietro died, you can see her attitude towards him start to change when he notes that grief is simply love that perseveres.

As an admitted Wanda stan, I'm just tired of watching her get kicked repeatedly. I don't know what consequences could be worse than anything that's already happened to her.

[arc]

I said earlier that it was a delight to see the 1950s set in color, but on further thought it was also a giant mindfuck that it is a set. If I wanted to turn my life into a sitcom Wanda-style, I might recreate a sitcom house’s style and act like my favorite show, but there’s a huge difference between wanting to live out being in a fictional show and wanting to live out making a show. For all the answers we got in this episode, one of the big remaining ones is why was it a full on show, with title sequences and credits and editing and a laugh track/in-studio audience?

[dwmarch]

Agatha made a classic villain mistake, telling Wanda exactly what was preventing her from using her powers. Instead of "oh, those things hanging on the wall there and there are basic bitch protection spells" I would say something like "my advanced protection spells that only I can break are protecting this location from where I have buried them... in China... or was it Mongolia?" Because seriously, Wanda is going to whack those things with a hammer or something and then what is Agatha going to do? I guess she's counting on converting Wanda to her cause.

When Heyward starting going on about the dollar value of Vision's vibranium corpse I half expected him to say "look at all that cheddar!"

Speaking of Heyward and dumb plans, did he actually bring rebuilt Vision right to the hex? That last SWORD camp didn't have particularly great luck so I wouldn't count on the next one doing any better.

[WildPlum]

9 hours ago, Kromm said:

I predict nobody likes this episode, because essentially nothing happened other than a Zombie Vision. 

It's not so much "nothing happened" as "How do we explain what happened without using exposition? I know! A bunch of forced flashbacks."

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 minutes ago, arc said:

Do arms manufacturers really slap their logos on their bombs? Why? It’s not like front line forces make the buying decisions. And I woulda thought customers would like their own names on their purchases anyways. I also think Wanda and Pietro should’ve blamed the actual bombers more than the arms manufacturer. But apparently the bomber was the US and I can see why a mainstream blockbuster franchise would shy away from even implying that anyone anywhere would have a valid reason to hate the US.

I would imagine that real-life weapons manufacturers do brand at least some of their weaponry.

But specifically in the case of Tony Stark, he was and is a raging egomaniac. I wouldn't be surprised if he did not brand a lot of his actual weapons. Although looking at the scene from Iron Man with the presentation for the Jericho, the missile itself does not seem to have the Stark logo on it (but the champagne refrigerator that they used to celebrate did).

[Lassus]

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

If Paul Bettany was just excited to act scenes opposite himself I will laugh. 

That would be perfect trollery and Bettany would win all the internets.

[Featherhat]

28 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

As an admitted Wanda stan, I'm just tired of watching her get kicked repeatedly. I don't know what consequences could be worse than anything that's already happened to her.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. At this point having her sit in a padded cell or worse The Raft under SWORD or Ross's "care" doesn't seem like the right thing, could make things even worse and won't make what happened to the WV residents any better and no one can punish Wanda as much as she's going to punish herself over this. 

 

10 minutes ago, arc said:

I said earlier that it was a delight to see the 1950s set in color, but on further thought it was also a giant mindfuck that it is a set. If I wanted to turn my life into a sitcom Wanda-style, I might recreate a sitcom house’s style and act like my favorite show, but there’s a huge difference between wanting to live out being in a fictional show and wanting to live out making a show. For all the answers we got in this episode, one of the big remaining ones is why was it a full on show, with title sequences and credits and editing and a laugh track/in-studio audience?

One of the things that Wanda seemed unaware of (like creating the Hex in the first place) was the broadcast, she certainly didn't seem in the right frame of mind to edit things like Dottie/Woo on the spot, so I am curious if they're going to be explaining this or if it's been answered with "well sitcoms were part of her trauma and coping so she literally created one" deal. You would think if the sets were "real" at the time they would have been a bug not a feature in her fantasy life as a reminder of just what was happening. 

I could see the broadcast as a sub conscious cry for help but I wonder if something else was manipulating it.

[bmoore4026]

OK, give Elizabeth Olsen all the awards.  All the awards now.  She kicked ass.  She took names.  She needs something.

So many things make sense now, including why Westview became what it did.  I mean, my God, what a shit hole it was until Wanda came along.  And we finally got to see how she and Vision got close and the meaning behind the sitcoms.  I have a feeling searches on Hulu and viewership on MeTV and Antenna TV are going to go up because of this episode.  We still don't know how Wanda got rid of her accent so fast.

So, does Agatha view Wanda as a kindred?  A threat?

Spoiler

But I don't get it.  Hayward said that Wanda stole Vision's body but we see that she did no such thing and the footage he showed Monica, Jimmy, and Darcy was not what actually went down.  How did he doctor the footage? 

And now there are two Visions, both with Wanda's energy as their source.  Wonder how this will play out.

By the way, can we get some awards to the costuming department?  I love how they were able to mix Agatha's costume from the comics together with a bit of Winifred Sanderson.  Just too great.

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by bmoore4026

[arc]

13 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

So, does Agatha view Wanda as a kindred?  A threat?

Given the Salem scene plus the Yo Magic commercial from a previous ep, Agatha might view Wanda as food.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Taking a look back at what was shown in Ep. 5, it doesn't look like any of the actual footage was doctored. Wanda did use her powers to open the outside door to the hallway, broke some glass and descended to where Vision's body was kept. What was shown on some screens were flickering as if she had knocked out those cameras, which could have been happened or could be manipulation on Hayward's part. We did not see anything resembling Wanda actually taking Vision or harming or threatening anyone.