S01.E08: Previously On

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, arc said:

I think it was a little silly that the Maximoff family practiced their English on TV night, but fine. I think it's a little more ridiculous that an originally German organization* operating in Sokovia in 2009 used English.

Ignoring the notion from Agents of SHIELD that Hydra was actually way older than the Red Skull, and also the convention that oftentimes people speaking a foreign language are shown to talk in English so the actors don't have to fumble with faking it, I don't see what would be silly about an international spy organization using English in 2009. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

She was on the run from the law for 3 years with Cap, Natasha and Sam. I would hope she former some kind of bond with them. But the first two are dead, and I guess in about a month we are going to find out what Sam has been up to.

I don't think we have any indication one way or another as to whether the four of them (and any other people) were on the run together, or just at the same time.

My take was that Cap and Sam were working closely together on the run, but pretty much everyone else was on their own, capable of being assembled if needed but not actively in each others' lives. Hence, Cap and Natasha needed to get a call from Tony's phone to know that Wanda and Vision were in trouble but knew where to find them fairly quickly in Infinity War.

[nilyank]

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Presumably Vision gave it to her at some point in the two-ish years between Civil War and Infinity War. Where did he get the money? Why Westview of all places? Dunno, doesn't matter too much to me.

Well Vision does have a net worth of 3 billion dollars.

[moonorchid]

I’m blown away with how deep and meaningful this episode was. Others have said it better so I won’t recap but wow. 
 

Visions line: “what is grief but love persevering”...just a beautiful sad tragically poetic way to look at loss and how we deal with it. Coupled with wanda’s analogy with how her grief and sadness were like waves that just kept crashing over her. 
 

She never intended anything that happened. She never wanted to break vision out. She wanted to bury the man she loved. To say goodbye. Elizabeth Olsen is killing this role so hard.

When she goes to WestView and sees what could have been, you could see this massive wave of sadness and despair wash over and yeah, it’s easy to understand how that just breaks you after all the loss you’ve suffered. I don’t hate her for what she’s done, she’s definitely in the wrong, but it’s hard to hate her and demand “justice”. She’s a broken woman who gave in to her grief and when she saw vision, it’s easy to understand and even empathize why she would just go with it and shut out everything else.

Now what’s interesting is how the mind stone factors in. It seems to have had melded into her or something, opened the door to her powers to make her what she is. The mind stone was also used to make vision, so somehow Wanda pulled vision out of herself? That part is still fuzzy to me but it’s fascinating.

Fun story: I finally watched “Age of Ultron” (I have a newer appreciation for it even though the bad parts are still really freaking bad) and it’s interesting to focus on Wanda and especially when she sees vision. She’s instantly drawn to him while he’s in the box then again when he’s taken form and aware. Plus I always thought it was something that vision came back from wherever he was to rescue Wanda in the end. They have been drawn to one another from day one and now we may know why. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Is she a villian, though? 🙂 

Also, why the hell did we get that convoluted defeat Thanos plot with too much testerone involved when Wanda was right there the whole time? They really should have had her play a more integral role in the defeat of Thanos. #mostpowerfulavenger #elizabetholsenwaswasted

Because the Russo Bros wanted to play with all their toys.

If Thor with Stormbreaker could nearly take out Thanos with all six Infinity stones by himself, clearly Thor with Stormbreaker, Cap-Thor with Mjolnir, Iron Man, Wanda and Captain Marvel could take out Thanos without any stones. 

4 minutes ago, nilyank said:

Well Vision does have a net worth of 3 billion dollars.

It's not like he can put a hangnail down as a deposit. 🙂

[swanpride]

In Infinity war it was said that both Wanda and Vision were "sneaking away" to see each other, and didn't Cap say something to Wanda about her going off the radar making it difficult to track them properly? The implication is that they were together. Wenn Steve, Sam, Natasha and Wanda were, Bucky was goat minding in Wakanda and Clint and Scott went into house arrest. But again, the only one left from this core group is Sam, and he is most likely currently busy elsewhere. Wanda is after all not the only one who is currently in need of emotional support.  

[Amethyst]

This episode may have been more exposition than I prefer so close to the end, but it was necessary.  Kinda bummed that Agatha wasn't behind it all, although I loved her backstory.  It was interesting how she actually did want to be good, but just said forget it in the end when the other witches were fighting her.

Seeing the heart Vision circled on the deed is a callback to the first episode, with the heart drawn on the calendar.  That was really sad.  

Plenty has been said on Elizabeth's performance (and for good reason) so I wanted to mention the visuals.  A few that really stood out: a worn out, scrawny looking Wanda seeing the Scarlet Witch in the reflection of the stone, the effect of Wanda's energy blast all over Westview, the fight between Agatha and her coven.  The show really spoils us on color.

Wanda is responsible for what happened to Westview, but she seems to disassociate with it.  When Vision confronted Wanda two weeks ago, she really didn't know how it had happened, but she was more concerned that Vision wanted out.  It's like a dream that Wanda found herself in, and she doesn't want to wake up.  It's shown how Wanda took over Westview, but not how the people are actually doing.  I still think Agatha is mentally torturing them, though.

Heyward only exists to be the villain, but there's no real personality to him besides asshole.  I'm not surprised that he's experimenting on Vision, and that he never refers to Vision as "he" but as "it."  Heyward never saw Vision as a person, so he's not going to give a damn about Wanda's grief, or that he's desecrating Vision's body.

[VCRTracking]

I got the feeling Heyward thought Wanda was the key to reviving him from the start and was deliberately pushing towards to do that.

So we now know the sitcom aesthetic is both Wanda not knowing what actual happy American married life is and using the only reference she knows while it also serves as comforting nostalgia from all the times she was happy watching TV with her family and with Vision. 

I loved the sitcom stuff and the deep emotional exploration of grief but I also  am looking forward to MCU action. A Vision vs Vision fight sounds awesome. The most badass thing the Vision has ever done so far is the way he saved Black Panther's life in CIVIL WAR:

Also Wanda vs Agnes with hopefully full powered Monica and "Fietro" for a big finale.

Edited February 27, 2021 by VCRTracking

[Llywela]

9 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

One of my favorite kinds of story is a downward spiral especially for a strong female character and Wanda Maximoff has all the makings to be a very compelling villain story.   

Downward spiral ending in...what exactly? You like seeing strong female characters being destroyed? Okay...

8 hours ago, BooBear said:

1. It seemed like the deed just showed up on Wanda's car. Luring her to Westview (next to Agatha's house) It seems to me maybe that deed is a fake and Agatha wanted to Lure Wanda for some reason (thus the Agatha all along) but then Wanda went all Hex crazy. It affected everyone but Agatha who simply played along to try to find out what the heck happened.  (and maybe how she could use it).

2. I know Heywood is supposed to be a baddy but I have zero problems with him. Wanda has an entire town basically being tortured. It isn't right, and if we just were being presented from a different point of view... the Director would be a hero. It is his job to stop her and free those people my any means necessary and no, I don't see him as a bad guy for experimenting with a lifeless corpse. He was perfectly nice to bring Wanda back and show her Vision knowing she could flip out. She didn't hurt him because she knew she wasn't mad with him. Her vision was gone. It wasn't his fault. The worse imho thing you can say about him is that he lied about Wanda taking Vision's body. Not sure why he would do that but imho still doesn't make him a baddy.  

The deed didn't turn up in Wanda's car. She had it alongside her in the front because that was her next stop, after trying to retrieve Vision's body because she wanted the closure of a funeral for him. Vision must have purchased the plot for them as a gift back before everything blew up with Thanos, way back when.

I'm not sure how much clearer the show has to make it that Hayward is a villain. Sure his overall brief is a heroic one (save the residents of a town being held prisoner) but there are heroic ways of achieving that (what Monica & co are attempting) and there are villainous ways of going about it. Hayward goes for the villainous, every time.

Let's recap. He repeatedly desecrated the corpse of a sentient being in an attempt to weaponise his remains, in direct violation of that being's living will (not a bad guy for playing with a lifeless corpse? How would you feel if someone dismembered and experimented on the corpse of someone you loved?). This action takes him way beyond SWORD's remit to observe and respond to sentient weapons. So he is acting outside his authority, he is not supposed to be doing what he is doing with Vision. Wanda came to him as the grieving wife wanting to lay her loved one to rest and he treated her grief brutally. He then framed her for a crime that she did not commit (stealing Vision's remains, which Hayward still has in his possession) - that's a criminal act, right there, as well as immoral. He bas belittled and demeaned the people working with him, rather than treating them with the respect they deserve as fellow professionals. His efforts to free Westview are focused solely on destroying Wanda and retrieving her version of Vision, no matter what the cost, rather than on, you know, figuring out a course of action least likely to cause collateral damage. By any means is not the appropriate method in a scenario like this. At no point in any of this has he acted in good faith.

So no, the show has been very clear that Hayward is in the wrong. His cause is just, to be sure, but his actions are not.

4 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Seems like in 5 years they'd have made more progress in the disassembly process. Did all the capable AI scientists disappear in the snap?

Hayward only became director two years ago, when Maria Rambeau died, so his experimentation on Vision would have started sometime after that. He said they'd disassembled and re-assembled him many times, what Wanda saw was just the latest phase of that project.

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Since if Stark was such a genius he shouldn't be making bombs that don't work.

Stark didn't make every single bomb personally. Even with the best design in the world, mistakes can be made on the production line. The idea of a dud never bothered me, because it is realistic, that kind of thing does happen. But now it seems it was Wanda all along!

2 hours ago, Grammaeryn said:

Remember how Jimmy lost track of a guy in Witness Protection in Westview? With all of this talk about magic, we are assuming Dr. Strange will show up next week. What if it is Mordo? 

I know everyone has been very focused on the witness protection guy, but I honestly don't think he's important to the plot. That was just the macguffin used to draw attention to Westview's plight in the first place, the reason someone from far away came to realise something was wrong. The guy himself is just another Westview resident, under the Hex.

2 hours ago, saoirse said:

I can fanwank that Vision’s body was somehow protected by Maria and Tony - it makes sense that Tony would keep it from prying eyes. And once Tony was gone, there was just a bit of chaos with the returns from The Snap and all the other fallout of the final battle. And Hayward swept in to try and leverage the situation.

I agree, but I think it was Maria's death that left Vision's remains vulnerable to Hayward, not Tony's. Tony has only been dead for about three weeks, in universe. Hayward's project has been in progress longer than that. I think that having handed Vision's remains over to SWORD for safekeeping, the remaining Avengers probably never gave it another thought, they were confident it was safe and had bigger things on their minds. Then when Maria died and Hayward took over, because there was no one else suitably positioned to do so, that's when he took advantage of his position to start experimenting on Vision's remains.

[Chicago Redshirt]

36 minutes ago, swanpride said:

In Infinity war it was said that both Wanda and Vision were "sneaking away" to see each other, and didn't Cap say something to Wanda about her going off the radar making it difficult to track them properly? The implication is that they were together. 

Vision was able to turn off a transponder to get away from watchful eyes. There is dialogue about how the two of them had been for two years enjoying stolen moments, and were starting to contemplate staying together. Then Thanos's minions attacked, and after, Natasha tells Wanda to paraphrase, "I thought we had a deal. Stay close, check in, don't take any chances."

It's open to interpretation IMO if that means that they were hanging out side by side regularly but they cut her slack to hang out with Vision, or if it was meant to be a looser association. We can't tell if the check-in was meant to be the sort of check-in you see in Endgame where it's pretty clear that Rocket, Rhodey, Carol, and Okoye are in very different places but meet to compare notes, or if they had been hanging tight together and Wanda got a weekend pass to hang out with Vision. 

I should note that in their first scene in Infinity War, the Mind Stone is hurting Vision. He puts Wanda's hand to his head and asks her to tell him what she feels. She responds, "I just feel you." So for her to try to detect a sign of him in this episode and go "I can't feel you." is a doubly sad callback.

[swanpride]

I mean, let's see the whole thing from Wanda's perspective...because from her point of view, three years ago her brother died, two years ago Lagos happened and she ended up in the Raft, where she was put into a collar and a f... straight jacket, she then was two years on the run, and just as she has found a little bit happiness with Vision, she is forced to kill him, forced to watch him getting killed again by Thanos only to get snapped away and then come back with vision gone, Natasha gone, and Tony and Steve gone within a week or so, which counts as the third time she lost a family, I guess. So she goes to find Vision's body only to see him getting taken apart and dissected (honestly, that scene...imagine you want to see the body of a loved one and when you arrive, there are a bunch of scientists taking that body apart). And still she kept calm and went to west view, only to learn that the home Vision bought for her has been torn down. This is a lot of trauma and shock to pile on one single person within two or three weeks.

[Avabelle]

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Agatha tells us (and we have no particular reason to think she's lying on this point) that she only came to Westview after detecting the power Wanda used to make the Hex in the first place. So she didn't lay out a trap for Wanda to get her to Westview or anything.

This is what disappointed me. The Agatha All Along revelation from the last episode is kind of a let down because aside from creating fake Pietro it wasn’t really her along. She actually isn’t doing much and the idea that she just wants to know how Wanda got her powers is a bit weak. Like I get it but I think the show had set it up like she had a bigger involvement overall and now it seems she doesn’t. I’m hoping for a last minute revelation that she and Heyword are working together or something.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Avabelle

[Kel Varnsen]

What I think is interesting is that Wanda created Vision out of nothing yet he still has free will and wants to stop the hex and free the people of the town.

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

Stark didn't make every single bomb personally. Even with the best design in the world, mistakes can be made on the production line. The idea of a dud never bothered me, because it is realistic, that kind of thing does happen. 

He didn't make each one but technology in the MCU is way more advanced than in our world. Stark Industries was run by one of the smartest people in their world. He is a guy who figured out the secret to time travel in about 10 minutes and discovered a new element in less time than that in his living room. The quality control at Stark Industries should be insanely good.

6 hours ago, swanpride said:

In Infinity war it was said that both Wanda and Vision were "sneaking away" to see each other, and didn't Cap say something to Wanda about her going off the radar making it difficult to track them properly? The implication is that they were together. Wenn Steve, Sam, Natasha and Wanda were, Bucky was goat minding in Wakanda and Clint and Scott went into house arrest. But again, the only one left from this core group is Sam, and he is most likely currently busy elsewhere. Wanda is after all not the only one who is currently in need of emotional support.  

That's how I read it. Plus I don't see Steve breaking Wanda out of the most secure prison in the world and then just leave her on her own, with no family, no support system and no real way to support herself when she is one of the world's most wanted fugitives.

[DavidJSnyder]

19 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

 

  Hide contents

But I don't get it.  Hayward said that Wanda stole Vision's body but we see that she did no such thing and the footage he showed Monica, Jimmy, and Darcy was not what actually went down.  How did he doctor the footage? 

 

If you go back and watch the actual footage he showed them it was stuff we saw here like Wanda using her powers to open the doors into SWORD so it looks like she forced her way in and her bursting through the glass to fly down to Vision’s body. Hayward just says she took the body.

[lovett1979]

Some people here are saying that the house was torn down. I don’t believe that’s the case. I think the house is not-yet-built. The map just says “lot”. So I think Vision’s plan was for them to build the house together. She gets there and sees what would have been the potential for a happy life, and then manifests it.

[notagain]

It’s too neat to be a teardown. It was the beginnings of a stem wall foundation. 

[swanpride]

….there was a plan for a house on the lot, and you could still see part of the walls….if it had been an empty lot the lot would have been, well, empty.

Edited February 27, 2021 by swanpride

[QuantumMechanic]

10 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Genuine question, because I've been obsessing about it: does the lack of overt malice balance the lack of obvious regret?

For me, no effing way and it's not even close.

She is enslaving thousands of people against their will.

Also, just the fact that she is doing it, and knows she is doing it, IS "overt malice".  She's mindraping people for her selfish goals.  If that's not "overt malice" I don't know what is.  And grief (and I don't dispute she's genuinely grieving) is no excuse or justification for violating people like that.

Edited February 27, 2021 by QuantumMechanic

[Crs97]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

 

He didn't make each one but technology in the MCU is way more advanced than in our world. Stark Industries was run by one of the smartest people in their world. He is a guy who figured out the secret to time travel in about 10 minutes and discovered a new element in less time than that in his living room. The quality control at Stark Industries should be insanely good.

But others in the Stark company included Obediah and Mysterio’s group.

I am sure this will be a huge UO, but if this is how Wanda deals with grief, maybe Tony was right in Civil War to keep her in the compound with Vision.  Steve used it as evidence Tony was wrong and out of control, but I am thinking the citizens of Westview might disagree.  She was getting the help she needed from Vision at least.

[steelyis]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

Downward spiral ending in...what exactly? You like seeing strong female characters being destroyed? Okay...

Right? Long downward spirals tend to end in death. Especially for characters who are women.

DNW!

[cambridgeguy]

Just now, Crs97 said:

But others in the Stark company included Obediah and Mysterio’s group.

Which is more proof that the Avengers were undeniably naive if they handed Vision over to SWORD just because they trusted Maria.  You know who else was trustworthy and clever?  Peggy Carter, Nick Fury, Maria Hill, Phil Coulson - the Mt Rushmore of secret agents and they had no clue HYDRA had infiltrated SHIELD from day 1. 

And speaking of consequences for Wanda, I can see it now.  Wanda Maximoff, you're going to have to wait in line.  First of all we need to decide on a sentence for Clint Barton.  Then we need to decide if there should be any action taken against Mr. Barton, Scott Lang, James Rhodes, and Bruce Banner for unilaterally deciding to instantly bring billions of people back WITHOUT telling anyone to help them prepare even though there was no ticking clock since they didn't know 2014 Thanos was coming. 

 

[Kromm]

8 hours ago, swanpride said:

And still she kept calm and went to west view, only to learn that the home Vision bought for her has been torn down. This is a lot of trauma and shock to pile on one single person within two or three weeks.

Did I miss something?  To me that tracked as an empty plot purchased by him, not something torn down after he bought it.  Yes, there was a foundation, but it's not uncommon for those to be built and left for another contractor to continue building the rest of the house. 

8 hours ago, swanpride said:

I mean, let's see the whole thing from Wanda's perspective

But people who do wrong things usually have a point of view that excuses it in their minds. That doesn't make it true. 

32 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Genuine question, because I've been obsessing about it: does the lack of overt malice balance the lack of obvious regret?

It does not. 

I said it before. We still haven't seen real regret from her about doing the single most horrible thing short of murder to thousands of people. Her only acknowledgement was forced on her by Vision then pushed aside easily by Fietro.  

It doesn't matter how sad her tale is, or even that in part she was manipulated. It doesn't even matter that she clearly only intended to create the house and lost control. Until we get her acknowledging the RESULTS of what she did, this story is incomplete. 

32 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

For me, no effing way and it's not even close.

She is enslaving thousands of people against their will.

Also, just the fact that she is doing it, and knows she is doing it, IS "overt malice".  She's mindraping people for her selfish goals.  If that's not "overt malice" I don't know what is.  And grief (and I don't dispute she's genuinely grieving) is no excuse or justification for violating people like that.

Plus we've been told, multiple times, by multiple characters, how agonizing it is. It's not you going to sleep while someone else pilots your body.  It's a constant sense of drowning every moment. 

I get that she didn't mean to do it to people. And that to some extent she was probably tricked.  But she still has a good deal of responsibility for both slavery AND torture. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

14 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

For me, no effing way and it's not even close.

She is enslaving thousands of people against their will.

Also, just the fact that she is doing it, and knows she is doing it, IS "overt malice".  She's mindraping people for her selfish goals.  If that's not "overt malice" I don't know what is.  And grief (and I don't dispute she's genuinely grieving) is no excuse or justification for violating people like that.

Except the only one who ever says "Wanda won't let us leave. She won't even let us think of leaving." is shady-as-hell Agatha. Even when Vision took Norm out of the "sitcom world" as a test, I guess, he never identifies the voice in his head that's hurting him as anything but 'she'. And we've seen that she also has some mind-control powers, though maybe not on the same level as Wanda. Agatha doesn't have to be the architect here to have been nudging Wanda along, because she wants to know how Wanda did all this for her own purposes. Whatever those are. Or maybe just to take her kids. Regardless, I wouldn't believe anything Agatha said, right down to what time it is.

22 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

 there was no ticking clock since they didn't know 2014 Thanos was coming.

Hell, Stephen Strange didn't even know who Thanos was until Bruce fell through his skylight the first time, and supposedly he had a watch list of threats to the earth. Guess he has to get in line too. 😉

[Kel Varnsen]

51 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

But others in the Stark company included Obediah and Mysterio’s group.

Mysterio's group included a guy who invented basically a holodeck in 2016. Their bombs should be amazing.

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

….there was a plan for a house on the lot, and you could still see part of the walls….if it had been an empty lot the lot would have been, well, empty.

Keep in mind if was a new build construction would have likely stopped 5 years ago. Also people mentioned it was weird that a robot could have his name on the title to a house. But unless Vision was super presumptuous the other name on the deed was the name of an international fugitive.

[whiporee]

I have some timeline questions:

When did Vision and Wanda fall in love/buy the house? They both come in AoU. After AoU, they move to Avengers compound, but the events of Civil War aren't very long after AoU, are they? The incident where Wanda puts the bomb in the wrong place comes not long after Ultron. After the bomb, Wanda's under house arrest with Vision basically her warden -- they fell in love then?

After Civil War, they are on the run in Europe, not New Jersey. And in Civil War they were still discovering each other -- it wasn't like a deep love thing. So they are called back during IW, and then some fights, he's dead, she's blipped. When did they find and buy the house? The house was already purchased -- the deed had a heart on it. Wanda didn't go there to resurrect Vision, after all. Why would she carry the deed to a house she'd bought with her? There's no logic to that sequence at all. And, just as an addition, where'd they get the money? I don't think post AoU Tony was gong to be financing a sentinet robot out in the burbs. 

The other question is logistical -- after Thanos rips Vision's head open, Cap, Natasha, Bruce, Thor and Rocket just leave him there? When he comes back three weeks later and I assume gets debriefed, Tony doesn't ask and just leaves Vision in the hands of government. For five years? it's not like SWORD would have a presence in Wakanda to beat Cap to the punch. I find it hard to believe that Steve Rogers would leave any kind of fallen comrade behind, or that Tony would just abandon that much technology.  

 

[Kromm]

38 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except the only one who ever says "Wanda won't let us leave. She won't even let us think of leaving." is shady-as-hell Agatha. Even when Vision took Norm out of the "sitcom world" as a test, I guess, he never identifies the voice in his head that's hurting him as anything but 'she'. And we've seen that she also has some mind-control powers, though maybe not on the same level as Wanda. Agatha doesn't have to be the architect here to have been nudging Wanda along, because she wants to know how Wanda did all this for her own purposes. Whatever those are. Or maybe just to take her kids. Regardless, I wouldn't believe anything Agatha said, right down to what time it is.

We have Monica's account to how much it hurts, and Darcy at least alludes to it. Yes Agatha is lying about part of it, but we aren't just relying on Norm. 

Plus, even if we discount the pain, there's still the slavery. 

I'm saying, we can't just spin this to let Wanda totally off the hook, even if lies and manipulations of others contributed. 

Plus I just rewatched the "All You Do is lie" scene where Wanda slams Monica to the ground, and it's clear only Monica's own powers spare her injury (because Wanda is surprised she's okay). There's clear indication in that Wanda is having something of an empathy problem, mixed with her temper tantrum. She was ready and willing to turn Monica into a road pizza. 

[Guest]

On 2/27/2021 at 9:07 AM, Kromm said:

But people who do wrong things usually have a point of view that excuses it in their minds. That doesn't make it true. 

True but you really can’t go down that rabbit hole with superhero characters. After characters like Loki faces appropriate consequences for their actions then I would want to see characters like Wanda face consequences. I can’t support one if the few strong female characters being sidelined as a consequence when male character do not face consequences. If Marvel wanted to go down that road it needs to be done with Clint first. 

On 2/27/2021 at 9:07 AM, Kromm said:

It does not. 

I said it before. We still haven't seen real regret from her about doing the single most horrible thing short of murder to thousands of people. Her only acknowledgement was forced on her by Vision then pushed aside easily by Fietro.  

It doesn't matter how sad her tale is, or even that in part she was manipulated. It doesn't even matter that she clearly only intended to create the house and lost control. Until we get her acknowledging the RESULTS of what she did, this story is incomplete. 

We also haven’t seen her with full awareness of what she did. She has not seen the full impact of what is happening. She mostly sees the facade with a few cracks showing. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Guest

[lovett1979]

Regarding Fietro, now that we know that he is a construct of Agatha's, and definitely not being pulled from the X-Men universe, I had said previously that the reason for casting Evan Peters was to mess with us. But now I think it's that, but for a really good reason. When Wanda sees him at the door, she recognizes him AS Pietro. Something about him is telling her that he is her brother. If they had cast a different actor, we the audience would have NO reason to believe such a thing and would be immediately super suspicious the whole time (instead of just a little suspicious, lol). But casting Peters gave the audience the same plausibility that whatever Agatha's magic gave to Wanda. Everything about this production is so well-done and immersive.

[Llywela]

42 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I have some timeline questions:

When did Vision and Wanda fall in love/buy the house? They both come in AoU. After AoU, they move to Avengers compound, but the events of Civil War aren't very long after AoU, are they? The incident where Wanda puts the bomb in the wrong place comes not long after Ultron. After the bomb, Wanda's under house arrest with Vision basically her warden -- they fell in love then?

After Civil War, they are on the run in Europe, not New Jersey. And in Civil War they were still discovering each other -- it wasn't like a deep love thing. So they are called back during IW, and then some fights, he's dead, she's blipped. When did they find and buy the house? The house was already purchased -- the deed had a heart on it. Wanda didn't go there to resurrect Vision, after all. Why would she carry the deed to a house she'd bought with her? There's no logic to that sequence at all. And, just as an addition, where'd they get the money? I don't think post AoU Tony was gong to be financing a sentinet robot out in the burbs. 

The other question is logistical -- after Thanos rips Vision's head open, Cap, Natasha, Bruce, Thor and Rocket just leave him there? When he comes back three weeks later and I assume gets debriefed, Tony doesn't ask and just leaves Vision in the hands of government. For five years? it's not like SWORD would have a presence in Wakanda to beat Cap to the punch. I find it hard to believe that Steve Rogers would leave any kind of fallen comrade behind, or that Tony would just abandon that much technology.  

My assumption was that Vision purchased the plot sight unseen as a gift for Wanda, a gesture of optimism, that what they were going through wasn't forever, that they would get to have a future together when the fighting was over. I don't think Wanda had seen it before driving there in the scenes we see here. Maybe Vision bought it as a surprise that he never got to give her, that she only found out about after coming back from the Snap.

Vision's remains weren't just left in Wakanda, no. His body seems to have been signed over to SWORD for safekeeping - an agency free from the taint of SHIELD and specialising in the observation and response to sentient weapons. Where else should they have placed him? Tony wouldn't desecrate the corpse of a fallen ally, even if he was a synth. As Hayward pointed out here, it wouldn't be safe to just bury him. So he was placed in storage and was perfectly safe there until Maria Rambeau died two years ago, and her replacement proved to be less than he was thought to be. By which time Tony had become a recluse, living in the woods with Pepper and their child, and Steve's mind was elsewhere, dealing with the aftermath of the Snap.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, whiporee said:

They both come in AoU. After AoU, they move to Avengers compound, but the events of Civil War aren't very long after AoU, are they? The incident where Wanda puts the bomb in the wrong place comes not long after Ultron.

It’s a year in between Ultron and Civil War.  

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

After Civil War, they are on the run in Europe, not New Jersey. And in Civil War they were still discovering each other -- it wasn't like a deep love thing. So they are called back during IW, and then some fights, he's dead, she's blipped.

It’s two years in between Civil War and Infinity War and Vision says they’ve stolen moments together for those two years. They’ve been meeting up regularly while Steve and Tony look the other way. 

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

When did they find and buy the house? The house was already purchased -- the deed had a heart on it. Wanda didn't go there to resurrect Vision, after all. Why would she carry the deed to a house she'd bought with her? There's no logic to that sequence at all. And, just as an addition, where'd they get the money? I don't think post AoU Tony was gong to be financing a sentinet robot out in the burbs. 

In Infinity War, Vision was trying to convince Wanda to not go back and make a life together. He probably bought the house as part of that intention. As for the money, Vision is considered a sentient being and probably got paid like everyone else. He’s a sentient robot he probably didn’t have any difficulty generating an income. 

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Dani said:

As for the money, Vision is considered a sentient being and probably got paid like everyone else. He’s a sentient robot he probably didn’t have any difficulty generating an income. 

He could have tested bank vault security...

Vision: This door resists drilling and explosions satisfactorily; however, it remains vulnerable to high energy mind stone beams....

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

I have some timeline questions:

When did Vision and Wanda fall in love/buy the house? They both come in AoU. After AoU, they move to Avengers compound, but the events of Civil War aren't very long after AoU, are they? The incident where Wanda puts the bomb in the wrong place comes not long after Ultron. After the bomb, Wanda's under house arrest with Vision basically her warden -- they fell in love then?

After Civil War, they are on the run in Europe, not New Jersey. And in Civil War they were still discovering each other -- it wasn't like a deep love thing. So they are called back during IW, and then some fights, he's dead, she's blipped. When did they find and buy the house? The house was already purchased -- the deed had a heart on it. Wanda didn't go there to resurrect Vision, after all. Why would she carry the deed to a house she'd bought with her? There's no logic to that sequence at all. And, just as an addition, where'd they get the money? I don't think post AoU Tony was gong to be financing a sentinet robot out in the burbs. 

The other question is logistical -- after Thanos rips Vision's head open, Cap, Natasha, Bruce, Thor and Rocket just leave him there? When he comes back three weeks later and I assume gets debriefed, Tony doesn't ask and just leaves Vision in the hands of government. For five years? it's not like SWORD would have a presence in Wakanda to beat Cap to the punch. I find it hard to believe that Steve Rogers would leave any kind of fallen comrade behind, or that Tony would just abandon that much technology.  

 

My rule of thumb is that things in the MCU up to Infinity War are generally set in the year the movie was released (with the obvious exceptions of Captain America: TFA taking place mostly in the 40s and Captain Marvel taking place in the 1990s).

So Age of Ultron took place in 2015. Civil War took place in 2016. Infinity War took place in 2018. 

Infinity War has Wanda and Vision talk about having enjoyed stolen moments for two years. Vision had signed the accords so he was (presumably) mostly stationed still at the Avengers compound. Somehow he would get messages to Wanda or vice versa that would enable them to continue their romance in person despite her being a fugitive.

It seems to me that any time between roughly Civil War and Infinity War, Vision could have purchased the Westview property and put Wanda's name on the deed as well. It is not as though the recorder of deeds would necessarily be like "Wanda Maximoff? That's the infamous international fugitive!" 

As to how Wanda actually got the deed, it strikes me as perfectly plausible that a) he had already given it to her on one of the clandestine rendezvous before IW or b) now that she has been returned after the Blip, she discovered the deed among the personal effects and the will that Vision left behind. (One of the characters referred to him having a living will. Presumably Vision had other legal documents as well).

Tony obviously sees Vision as different from other AI. So I wouldn't be shocked if it had turned out that Tony did give Vision an allowance. In the comics, IIRC, there was a foundation that Tony set up that paid each Avenger. 

Vision could presumably earn money just like any other super-intelligent, super strong being who is capable of shooting a destructive beam, phasing through objects and flying at incredible speeds. With his talents, he should easily be able to earn enough to buy a plot of land in a rando Jersey suburb.

We'd only be guessing as to what happened immediately after Infinity War to Vision and his body.

I could see a scenario where the surviving Avengers bring his body back to America for burial. I could see a scenario where the Wakandans keep his body there and have a memorial in their country to him and all those who fell trying to prevent Thanos from snapping, but later allow SWORD to have the body. I could see Vision's will donating his body to SWORD or any number of other organizations for non-weapons oriented research. 

46 minutes ago, Dani said:

We also haven’t seen her with full awareness of what she did. She has not seen the full impact of what is happening. She mostly sees the facade with a few cracks showing. 

I guess it depends on what you define as "full awareness." 

We can take from the argument she had with Vision that she knows she is controlling people and that they are suffering in the process. Vision explicitly tells her that. She doesn't seem surprised, she doesn't deny that she is controlling them, or that they are suffering.

We can take it from the discussion she has with Fietro that she is aware that one way to look at what she's doing is that it is unethical. Fietro spins out the notion that she isn't having the children awake unless they are needed because she knows that it would be traumatizing for them and gives her an assurance that she's handling the ethical considerations of the scenario as well as she could considering. Notably again, she does not say anything like, "I have no idea what you are talking about. Nobody is suffering while they are here."

It could be that Wanda is in some level of denial about the effects of the Hex but it seems hard to argue that she has no clue that it is painful for the thousands of people she has caught up in it. 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I guess it depends on what you define as "full awareness." 

We can take from the argument she had with Vision that she knows she is controlling people and that they are suffering in the process. Vision explicitly tells her that. She doesn't seem surprised, she doesn't deny that she is controlling them, or that they are suffering.

We can take it from the discussion she has with Fietro that she is aware that one way to look at what she's doing is that it is unethical. Fietro spins out the notion that she isn't having the children awake unless they are needed because she knows that it would be traumatizing for them and gives her an assurance that she's handling the ethical considerations of the scenario as well as she could considering. Notably again, she does not say anything like, "I have no idea what you are talking about. Nobody is suffering while they are here."

It could be that Wanda is in some level of denial about the effects of the Hex but it seems hard to argue that she has no clue that it is painful for the thousands of people she has caught up in it. 

I wouldn’t call it full awareness. She seems to move between some degree of awareness and genuine confusion. I don’t think she really is aware that people are suffering. That is probably more willful ignorance than anything else.

Yes, it is splitting hairs but that is required of all the Marvel characters. Otherwise it blurs the line between heroes and villains.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Guest

[Llywela]

In her conversation with Fietro, Wanda seemed focused on how nice the town was. She seems aware that everyone in town is trapped, but doesn't seem aware that anyone is suffering. And she has repeatedly seemed confused over how it all started. At the very least, she is in deep, deep denial.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, Llywela said:

In her conversation with Fietro, Wanda seemed focused on how nice the town was. She seems aware that everyone in town is trapped, but doesn't seem aware that anyone is suffering. And she has repeatedly seemed confused over how it all started. At the very least, she is in deep, deep denial.

But Fietro basically put it in her face that people were suffering when he speculated that she had the children just be asleep other than for special occasions because being awake would be torture for them. Let's say that again: Fietro is speculating that she deliberately is not having children be present regularly because she knows that it would be painful for them. And yet, in the Spooktacular, she has dozens of children going through that torture. 

Now it could be that Fietro is wrong about this. But we aren't given any indication that he is. 

It could be that Wanda doesn't believe Fietro. But we are not given any indication that she does not.

If at the end of the day what we are left with someone who set up a situation where thousands of people are being violated, who has at least some awareness that she created the situation, who could end the situation if she wanted to, free people from the violation if she wanted to, but doesn't, there aren't too many excuses for that IMO, no matter how much grief she's gone through or what her mental illnesses are.

[swanpride]

Even if Wanda is doing it, it doesn't mean that she is fully aware that she is doing it. That is, IF she is doing it in the first place and there isn't even more to it. I am still waiting for the last twist because this doesn't feel as if they are done just yet.

[Crs97]

5 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Mysterio's group included a guy who invented basically a holodeck in 2016. Their bombs should be amazing.

True, but I was also thinking about the scientist who said miniaturizing the arc reactor was impossible.  “Tony Stark was able to build it in a cave!  Using spare parts!”  “I’m not Tony Stark.”

[Kromm]

5 hours ago, swanpride said:

Even if Wanda is doing it, it doesn't mean that she is fully aware that she is doing it. That is, IF she is doing it in the first place and there isn't even more to it. I am still waiting for the last twist because this doesn't feel as if they are done just yet.

Then that denial is steep, because while Fietro merely hinted at the suffering, Vision OUTRIGHT told her in clear words it was happening. 

[ProudMary]

While several have mentioned that Wanda was on the run for the two years between Civil War and Infinity War and we don't know how much contact she and Vision had with the others, it should be noted that there was a year between Age of Ultron and Civil War and at the end of Age of Ultron, Cap and Natasha were gathering the new Avengers for training at the Avangers complex. That group was Rhodey, Vision, Falcon and Wanda. Presumably, for the year prior to Civil War, those six lived and trained together at the complex. 

On 2/27/2021 at 12:29 AM, Megan said:

As a non-Comic book, non enjoy-er of blockbuster movies person, I really liked WandaVision, up until this epi

If this is how the movies have been, and it's not all just CGI fighty war stuff, maybe I should give the MCU movies (I've paid attention to the Taika Waititi movies and enjoyed them) a second look? I've seen them, but also spent the time focused on building Sim houses or something else, but am disappointed with this development.

@Megan If you haven't already, please watch Black Panther. It's a fantastic film and perhaps the most stand-alone entry in the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe. You really don't need to have seen other MCU films to fully understand and enjoy Black Panther.  

23 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Is she a villian, though? 🙂 

Also, why the hell did we get that convoluted defeat Thanos plot with too much testerone involved when Wanda was right there the whole time? They really should have had her play a more integral role in the defeat of Thanos. #mostpowerfulavenger #elizabetholsenwaswasted

It actually made sense that the most powerful Avenger was protecting the Mind Stone, the final infinity stone needed by Thanos and the reason for the battle, as Shuri was attempting to remove it from Vision's head. When the battle raging on the Wakandan plain heated up to the point that Wanda joined the fight, Proxima Midnight immediately sent the message, "She's on the field. Take it." [The Mind Stone.]

[Featherhat]

Even if this show ends with Wanda voluntarily being locked away in the Raft or secure mental health facility she won't be there long before someone lets or breaks her out because they need her. We're not going to get a 10 years later card. 

Tony's support of the Sokovia Accords comes from his own guilt and HIM deciding he/they need oversight, not from accepting due process, he could very well have gone the other way if his life had been less of a shit show at the time. And obviously Steve who was the one more involved in the Crossbones catastrophe completely rejects and goes on the run from. No one seems that concerned about collateral damage caused on Civil War after the fact, it's all about the fact that the team broke up and the emotions. 

Tony's other consequences are his own demons, mistakes and former lifestyle coming back to haunt him in a way that continually gets normal people hurt of killed in a way that would certainly get him locked up in real life. Apart from the Accords he actively makes fun of any official trying to reign him in. Which he apparently inherits from his Dad going by Agent Carter. 

Clint seems to be training his own replacement and what consequences he suffers for being judge, jury and executioner won't be prison or a secure mental health unit. 

2012 Loki might well be facing consequences but I doubt it involves returning to Earth and saying he's sorry for the thousands he killed and millions of lives he otherwise destroyed and accepting his sentence. 

In AMTTW Scott's official punishment is treated as an inconvenience by everyone including the narrative. His real consequences are about Hank and Hope feeling betrayed. Ghost literally gets a hug (I mean I actually really loved that part). 

Thor somewhat understandably has a pity party and break down but he abandons his people and it's Val who has to step up to lead them and Thor gets a hug from his Mum and new adventures. 

Bucky is a complex case but there are a lot of people who wouldn't accept "I was brainwashed" as an excuse and he has at least half the Avengers in his corner. We're about to see his consequences and they're not "get put in a secure facility for life".  More like "learn to work and fight alongside the guy who replaced me and have couples therapy" among other things. 

Nat with her Red Ledger has never seemed to consider turning herself in for anything (not that anyone would ever let her) and sees working with SHIELD and then The Avengers as a way to make things right. 

What happened to the innocent by standers in Westview was awful and I don't think it's going to end with Wanda getting off scot free and at peace with everything but there are a lot of characters who have expressed varying degrees of remorse for what happens to innocent by standers or people they deliberate hurt/didn't care what happened to them and none of them where hauled away by SWORD or whoever at least for very long and when they were it was a plot point not a "justice has been done" moment. 

I would still like this to end with Wanda going to Kamar Taj with people who know grief and can help her learn to control her powers and it's a place where she can't hurt any innocents either maliciously or accidentally. 

Even an entire Damage Control and In Treatment combo show couldn't deal with the real life stuff people in the MCU go through. 

12 hours ago, Crs97 said:

True, but I was also thinking about the scientist who said miniaturizing the arc reactor was impossible.  “Tony Stark was able to build it in a cave!  Using spare parts!”  “I’m not Tony Stark.”

"Tony Stark! In a Cave! With a Box of Scraps!" is still my favourite MCU line. I have no idea why, I think it's just the way Jeff Bridges delivers it. 

[swanpride]

Here is the thing: I don't believe in punishment for the sake of it. In Germany, the main purposes of prisons is rehabilitation and there are only a handful of cases of people who are locked in because they are considered a danger to society. So no, I don't think that Natasha "turning herself in" (which, btw, she already did, she turned herself in to Shield) would change anything, she spends her whole life trying to atone, there is no need to rehabilitate her. And with Wanda the solution is not to put her into the raft either (hell, the raft is part of the multiple reasons why she snapped in the first place), the solution is to put her into therapy until she is deemed safe again. What she needs is a mix of a psychologist and someone who can help her controlling her powers better.

Dr. Strange can provide one half of the brief, but there would still someone needed who can provide the other half.

[Kate47]

I'm kind of hoping that Agatha isn't too rotten, the opening scene indicated she'd be a good tutor for Wanda in the ways of being a witch. Maybe with less bird killing.

[Abra]

Quote

I'm kind of hoping that Agatha isn't too rotten, the opening scene indicated she'd be a good tutor for Wanda in the ways of being a witch. Maybe with less bird killing.

Also less mother killing, every member of her coven killing, dog killing, child kidnapping and strangling...(she seems pretty rotten).

[ProudMary]

Something that's bugging me and that I hope we get an answer to in the finale: Several of us had speculated that the man and woman who repeatedly appeared in the commercials were Wanda's Sokovian parents. We've now seen her actual Sokovian parents; so who are the people in the commercials? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

51 minutes ago, Abra said:

Also less mother killing, every member of her coven killing, dog killing, child kidnapping and strangling...(she seems pretty rotten).

It didn't seem like she deliberately tried to kill her coven originally, and it is at least arguably self-defense. '

I think there is at least some question as to who or what Tommy and Billy really are. If they are just magic spells rather than actual children, arguably it is OK to do whatever to them.

By the same token, Sparky might not be a real dog. 

Despite the theme song, there is little that Agatha has been shown to do that is truly evil.

 

[arc]

30 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think there is at least some question as to who or what Tommy and Billy really are. If they are just magic spells rather than actual children, arguably it is OK to do whatever to them.

This is the same line of thinking that produces the Tyler Hayward’s of the world!

[lovett1979]

38 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Despite the theme song, there is little that Agatha has been shown to do that is truly evil.

 

Well, she has been messing with things, and seemingly to keep the Hex going. In the 80s episode, Vision was starting to get through to Wanda and if he had, she might have ended the Hex. So Agatha sent in Fietro to make sure she kept it going. She also has been trying to keep Vision suspicious of Wanda and push him away from her. And it seems pretty clear now that she wants to know how Wanda is doing this so she can do something similar herself. And that can’t be something good.

[swanpride]

Two possibilities: She either wants her mother back or she wants the crown her mother wore.

[Kromm]

5 hours ago, Featherhat said:

What happened to the innocent by standers in Westview was awful and I don't think it's going to end with Wanda getting off scot free and at peace with everything but there are a lot of characters who have expressed varying degrees of remorse for what happens to innocent by standers or people they deliberate hurt/didn't care what happened to them and none of them where hauled away by SWORD or whoever at least for very long and when they were it was a plot point not a "justice has been done" moment. 

The problem though is that she HASN'T expressed remorse.  We're (so far) only inferring and hoping that she eventually will.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, arc said:

This is the same line of thinking that produces the Tyler Hayward’s of the world!

I will respectfully disagree. 

vision was objectively, legally and morally real. A sentient being who has been dead since 2018 and who had a will. It seems like Hayward has disrespected that will, but that disrespect has nothing to do with Vision's not being real or even (as far as we know) Hayward believing that Vision is not real.

By contrast, if the twins are essentially figments of Wanda's imagination, it really does not matter what Agatha does to them. Or at least, it is not the equivalent of kidnapping and choking an actual child.

53 minutes ago, lovett1979 said:

Well, she has been messing with things, and seemingly to keep the Hex going. In the 80s episode, Vision was starting to get through to Wanda and if he had, she might have ended the Hex. So Agatha sent in Fietro to make sure she kept it going. She also has been trying to keep Vision suspicious of Wanda and push him away from her. And it seems pretty clear now that she wants to know how Wanda is doing this so she can do something similar herself. And that can’t be something good.

Agatha wants to know how Wanda got all this power. She doesn't seem to want to replicate the Hex, but wants to learn how to do things on the same scale. And obviously, she is not likely to be intending to give everyone warm puppies and rainbows if she ever figures out. 

My sense is that Agatha would be just as happy to have the Hex go away if she could get the secret of how to raise her magic game to that level. Keeping the Hex going is evil, because the Hex is mind-violating and independence-robbing. But it doesn't seem that real!Agatha is enjoying that part of it or any evil deeds anywhere near as much as song!Agatha was. She strikes me more as amoral than immoral.