S05.E10: Nemesis Games

[BlackberryJam]

Summary: Holden and the Roci face off against Marco’s forces and Drummer, while Alex and Bobbie attempt a dangerous rescue of Naomi, and the balance of power in the Solar System shifts.

Okay...so this is available on my Primie now and well...that happened. Stop reading if you haven’t seen it yet.

What an big fat nothing of a death for Alex, and then what felt like really insincere send offs by the Roci crew. The only thing that felt genuine was Holden touching Alex’s name on the Roci.

So much happened and yet the episode wasn’t at all action packed. We skip Amos and crew arriving on Luna, get a line about Hutch surviving, move straight from dead Alex on the racing ship to Naomi and Bobbie back on the Roci. Then everyone on Luna. I felt like I’d skipped three episodes.

Also, don’t hang Chekov’s gun on dumbass Filip only to not have him blow Marco’s brains out.

The only parts of the episode that felt like what I’m used to from this show was Drummer and crew and the scene of Amos talking to Holden and bringing Clarissa on board. 

I might have to rewatch it because...I dunno...it was so....summary.

Also, fuck Marco. 

[fauntleroy]

Missed about a third of the dialog because subtitles not available in English and the default was Bahasa Melayu, which I am sorry to say a bit rusty on.

Quite a difference from the previous episode in which not much seemed to happen. Pacing pretty uneven. A lot to unpack looking forward to reading reactions and gaps explained, been away from this forum for a while. Wish they could just like get a friggin break for a bit, it's all so exhausting.

English subtitles available after the fact.

[showme]

What is the meaning of the ending? The ring incinerated the rouge Marsion war ship? but why?

The death of Alex is weird, they just killed him off like that?

[thuganomics85]

And so the set-up for the final season begins!

So, it looks like they actually are going forward with killing off Alex instead of recasting Cas Anver or phasing the character out.  I guess they did the best they could with the situation that was put upon them, but it was still pretty obvious that this was likely a last minute thing and not part of the original plan.  They at least tried to build it up by claiming his death was in order to save Naomi, but it still lacked the punch of what it could have been if it was planned out.  Still, it's not like they knew going in that Cas was a scumbag, so I won't hold it against them too much.  I'll still remember the good times with the Alex character, but it was admittedly hard to separate the "artist from the art", so this is probably the best call in the long run.  Plus, I wonder if Bull is being set-up to take over as the Rocinante's pilot, which should hopefully be fun since I dig him and Jose Zuniga (please don't have any skeletons in your closet, Jose!)

Glad that Drummer finally had enough of being under Marco's thumb, and went against him.  And even was helped out by two of her crew members.  But I'm not surprised that Oksana was upset enough to be done with her for good.  Especially after their one crew member was killed by Marco as a "message."  Even if one were to really think about it, Marco killing the guy even though the guy had no idea or anything about what Drummer was planning to do, really makes his whole "I'm here to protect all the Belters!" act look like bullshit.  Probably because he's actually a smug, self-serving asshole.  And while I'm sure Drummer will feel guilt over it, I think she would have been on borrowed time as Marco's lackey and this needed to be done.  Curious to see what is in store for her next season.  Cara Gee crushed it this season as always.

Ha, I love that Amos' reasoning to Holden about "Peaches" joining the crew was basically "Hey, I know she tried to ruin your life and kill you, but there was that one time you threaten to kill me and would have gone through with it, so... bygones be bygones, right?!"  Almost just as good was Holden's baffled reaction to Clarissa, but then pretty much shaking his head and going with it, because what else is there to do at this point?

Really hope Naomi has a nicer time next season.  Well, that and hopefully not being as isolated this time...

Glad we got some good Chrisjen/Bobbie moments!  Really love that duo.

I know everyone got a moment or two to shine this season, but I really think Monica might be the stealth MVP out of the supporting cast.  Really hope they find a way to keep her around next season.

Looks likes Marco (and Filip)'s grand plan is teaming up with Admiral Sauveterre/Tim DeKay, and taking control of the rings.  Oh, and they actually do still have Fred's protomolecule.  I'm sure that's going to end well!

All in all, I still mainly enjoyed the season, but I did think it fell short in some aspects.  I think the biggest issue was having the Rocinante family/crew splintered for almost all of the season.  Not to delve too much into the books, but I felt like that idea worked better on paper than it did on screen, because not having these characters interact with each other on screen was more noticeable.  And it didn't help that some of plots just weren't interesting enough to last for an entire season: especially Naomi being stuck with Marco and Filip.  I thought the stories with Chrisjen, Drummer, and Amos/Clarissa mainly worked, but it also felt like the likes of Holden, Bobbie, and Alex really didn't do much this go around.  But I'm cautiously optimistic that the final season will hopefully make this worth it, since it looks like most of the gang is back together, and a more interesting threat is on the horizon.  I hope the wait isn't too long!

[WildPlum]

The last 2 episodes were in excruciating slo mo, draaaagggging out all the plot points, this episode was doing okay right up until the last 10 minutes when they hit the fast forward and just whizzed through everything. The last 10 minutes could have been an entire Episode 11.

So Marco gets the system between the Ring Gate and Earth and the Martians take everything on the other side of the ring, mining it so that no one can come through? What good does that do Inaros if they don't have colonist ships to prey on for supplies? The Belt's ability to feed itself is iffy. I suspect this made much more sense in the books (which I haven't read) than it does here. [Although no book spoilers in this thread, but I'll head off to the Books thread to see what the answer is]

Edited February 3, 2021 by WildPlum

[UnknownK]

So the martians used the proto molecule on that planet they got and it turned on the old buildings which in turn took out the martian ship?

[mrspidey]

7 hours ago, showme said:

 

The death of Alex is weird, they just killed him off like that?

They killed him off in post-production after firing the actor due to about 40(!) sexual assault and harassment charges/allegetions made against him. 

https://screenrant.com/expanse-season-6-cas-anvar-not-returning/

Edited February 3, 2021 by mrspidey

[fauntleroy]

1 hour ago, mrspidey said:

They killed him off in post-production after firing the actor due to about 40(!) sexual assault and harassment charges/allegetions made against him. 

Makes sense in retrospect that's why his death scene was just a still shot with a few blood droplets floating around - no dialog. Abrupt but timed well so plausible enough.

The scenes of Naomi struggling in that tin can by contrast way too drawn out.

I didn't understand what happened to the Martian ship at the end. They could have used some of the Naomi gasping for air time to explain the mechanics of the ring passage.

[Msample]

8 hours ago, WildPlum said:

The last 2 episodes were in excruciating slo mo, draaaagggging out all the plot points, this episode was doing okay right up until the last 10 minutes when they hit the fast forward and just whizzed through everything. The last 10 minutes could have been an entire Episode 11.

So Marco gets the system between the Ring Gate and Earth and the Martians take everything on the other side of the ring, mining it so that no one can come through? What good does that do Inaros if they don't have colonist ships to prey on for supplies? The Belt's ability to feed itself is iffy. I suspect this made much more sense in the books (which I haven't read) than it does here. [Although no book spoilers in this thread, but I'll head off to the Books thread to see what the answer is]

More like the whole season. 3-4 episodes of plot stretched into 10 eps.  And we're STILL stuck with fucking Marco Inaros and his whiney shit of a son. 

I get why they killed off Alex in the way that they did; when it faded to black after Bobbie linked up with Naomi I kept waiting for the Razorback to explode since it was close to the ship Naomi was trapped on. 

Still not sure what exactly happened to the Martian ship at the end. 

This was easily the weakest season of the lot. 

[xfuse]

9 hours ago, showme said:

The death of Alex is weird, they just killed him off like that?

Spoiler

It has been awhile since I have read them but it seems to be taken from the book but it was someone else's death.

I put spoiler tag because I mentioned the book but not really any details. It just makes a little bit more sense to me. It not like they pulled it out of thin air.

Edited February 3, 2021 by xfuse
Just updated my reason.

[hendersonrocks]

Yikes, this was a rough landing for the season. It felt like some storylines were beaten to death (Naomi on that *#&@ ship, Drummer and her crew's diverging perspectives on what to do, Marco is a sociopath and Philip is confused), and others were completely underdeveloped (Amos & Peaches on Luna, Mars doing whatever Mars is doing, everything with the protomolecule, and Alex is dead oh wow look Naomi is back on the Roci). Unfortunately for me, all the things I actually find interesting are in the latter bucket.

[Eulipian 5k]

What a wrap up! (I'll blame the pandemic for stealing the Episodes 11 thru 13 we needed )

• Bobbie's voice in Naomi's ear wrapped around like a warm embrace from Mom - best moment!
  • Naomi one-ups Diogo in the EVA rescue challenge.
• needed a cheat sheet of whose ships were whose in the battle of the ring gate.
• Drummer's change of mind seemed abrupt even though we knew it was inevitable; did she discuss her move with anyone?
• Will Bull and Peaches have to fight for the pilot's chair? (They tossed aside Cas Anvar like a bullet Bobbie picked out of her suit!)
• No helpless females in this space; they did all the "rescuing" needed, and Monica spots the blue plume!
• I get that TLS is now all in, and may challenge TBS for top billing.

Can't wait for Season 6!

[Penman61]

57 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

 

• I get that TLS is now all in, and may challenge TBS for top billing.

 

Somehow I don't think these abbreviations are for the Times Literary Supplement and that Atlanta-based cable station...can you spell out? Thanks. 🙂

[BlackberryJam]

TLS = The Little Shit = Filip Inaros.

TBS = The Big Shit = Marco Inaros.

 

[WatchrTina]

On 2/2/2021 at 7:24 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Also, don’t hang Chekov’s gun on dumbass Filip only to not have him blow Marco’s brains out.

<snip>

Also, fuck Marco. 

Amen and Amen.

Marco's survival confused me because of the scene where Holden brings a pad to Naomi in the MedChair and allows her to push a button that does . . . something.  I had HOPED that what she was doing was sending a missile to take out Marco and Filip's ship though, admittedly, that would have been a bit cold-blooded for our Naomi.  She -- presumably -- still has some maternal feelings/guilt with regard to Filip.  But, you know, having to space yourself with almost no air in your suit in order to escape a doomed ship can make a girl cranky.

ETA:  Oooh, wait, was that missile sent to destroy the ship on which Naomi had been trapped -- the one that was (probably) still broadcasting the fake distress call from her and that was rigged to blow up?  Okay, that makes sense.  Holden WOULD remember to tidy up the universe after rescuing Naomi.

On 2/2/2021 at 10:24 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Plus, I wonder if Bull is being set-up to take over as the Rocinante's pilot, which should hopefully be fun since I dig him and Jose Zuniga

I'm guessing that Clarissa/Melba/"Peaches" is going to land in the Roci's pilot's seat.  She's got hella good driving skills, what with her having been a racer, right?  But Bull would also be an interesting addition to the crew.  I'm sure he has hella good gunnery skills (and, alas, Gunnery Sergeant Bobbie Draper is no longer on board.)

On 2/3/2021 at 7:22 AM, fauntleroy said:

I didn't understand what happened to the Martian ship at the end.

Me neither!  We know (from past seasons) that Holden has spotted . . . something . . . when making a ring transit -- something that looks like energy bursts.  And I seem to recall that Holden's ability to see them (others can't) has something to do with his ability (in the past) to communicate with ProtoMiller.  So I'm GUESSING that the aliens that live in the in-between space decided to to "take" that Martian ship at the end and that THAT will be a key plot point for the next season.  But that is all pure speculation.

On 2/3/2021 at 10:26 AM, Eulipian 5k said:

Bobbie's voice in Naomi's ear wrapped around like a warm embrace from Mom - best moment!

Agreed!  I was pretty sure it was coming but still . . . they did SUCH a good job of shooting it, what with we, the viewers, only hearing it happen (at first) while the camera focused on Naomi's face.  Fantastic choice.

On 2/3/2021 at 10:26 AM, Eulipian 5k said:

needed a cheat sheet of whose ships were whose in the battle of the ring gate.

That's my big complaint about the episode.  I watched carefully, attentively, and I'm still not 100% certain what happened.  The troubling part (or what should be troubling to the show-runners) is that right now I'm not motivated to do a re-watch to figure it out.  Then again, given the Pandemic and what I assume were huge challenges in completing the season, I'm going to just forgive the shortcomings and be grateful for what I got.

On 2/3/2021 at 10:26 AM, Eulipian 5k said:

I get that TLS is now all in, and may challenge TBS for top billing.

Hmmm.  Okay that's an interesting take.  I despise that big shit (TBS) Marco with the white-hot passion of a thousand suns so if that little shit (TLS) Filip wants to challenge him for leadership next season I am down with that.  I just hope Filip's victory is short-lived and he goes down in flames shortly after deposing (preferably killing) his shitty father.

And now I'm going to celebrate that 3/4ths of the original Roci family are finally, FINALLY reunited.  I'm sorry to have lost Alex but his exit was a stroke of realism (no pun intended) in a show that has -- from the very start -- tried to address the real risks of life in space.  I remember being impressed in the very first episode of the first season when everyone had to take a seat and get "juiced" in order to survive a major change in trajectory on that first, big ship.  Alex finally being taken down by an aneurism feels completely plausible given all the fancy flying we've seen him do.  And his quiet, unexpected death is a realistic counter-point to the many dramatic, violent deaths we've witnessed on this show.

Edited February 5, 2021 by WatchrTina

[Evie]

That was an anticlimactic ending to a pretty weak season. 

I guess they went back and filmed Alex's death and some of the scenes that followed. While it was all very rushed, I did like they chose a manner of death that showed the risks of space travel. Can't say I'll miss Alex. It was hard for me to separate the character from the actor this season. I do hope Season 6 shows some scenes of the characters missing Alex, however.

I hate that we still have to put up with Marco and Filip for another season. Way too much time was spent on them this season while characters like Holden and Bobbie went missing for most of the second half of the season.

As much as I like Drummer, I thought too much time was spent on her family drama. We all knew what Drummer would choose. Too much time was also spent on Naomi stranded on the ship.

Amos' storyline ended abruptly, but I did like the scene with Amos and Holden. "Remember when you threatened to kill me, and we're cool now. So here's Peaches. Totally the same deal."

My wish for Season 6 is for the characters to NOT be separated for a whole season.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Evie

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

that would have been a bit cold-blooded for our Naomi.

Back when she and Alex went to chase Diogo, (after Cortozar was taken), Naomi made a point that she had never killed another Belter. So the attempt to stab Marco was the only time in all five seasons. Now she's calling in a strike on the Chetzie,...will she be all in on having to kill other Belters?

Amos learned from his adventure, (and Peaches), that you can't just kill every body outside your tribe; and Naomi's learning you may need to kill some people in your tribe.

[BlackberryJam]

9 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Back when she and Alex went to chase Diogo, (after Cortozar was taken), Naomi made a point that she had never killed another Belter. So the attempt to stab Marco was the only time in all five seasons. Now she's calling in a strike on the Chetzie,...will she be all in on having to kill other Belters?

Amos learned from his adventure, (and Peaches), that you can't just kill every body outside your tribe; and Naomi's learning you may need to kill some people in your tribe.

Naomi killed Diogo with an elevator shaft though, didn't she?

I think Amos is also the one wanting to expand the tribe. 

[MissLucas]

There were definitely pacing problems with this season - I blame the plague.

Marco was hoisted on the petard of his own pettiness. Taking out the Rocinante was a clever move - as Avasarala's little motivational speech on Luna showed the Rocinante is a symbol for everything Marco hates. And had he given the order to destroy the Roci to any other Belter faction it would have worked. But he had to turn it into loyalty test for Drummer and ended with a mess on his hands. Drummer defied him knowing damn well that it would cost her tribute but now others not happy with his leadership will see that it can be done. In other words he now has to take out Drummer - good luck with that a**hole.

And while I liked how the books handled Alex in later installments I can see why they did this. I guess Bull is taking over the pilot's seat and not Peaches. He's better qualified and has combat experience AND he was holding Alex's coffee cup in his last scene.

The battle was beautiful but I had no idea what was going on - I never do and resort to YT to have it explained by all the folks there who enjoy to analyze their space battles.

I loved how Amos approached the thorny issue of bringing Peaches on board - applied ethics and a bit of moral Jiu-Jitsu. And best of all he was genuinely unaware of what he was doing LOL!

I have more thoughts but they belong in the books thread.

[WildPlum]

I THINK I understand the "end of credits" image - the Martians have the protomolecule and have used it to "awaken" a ship?machine? of the people who created the protomolecule, hence all the blue lights powering up. All of the angry red whooshing around as the Martians transit the ring is the "other" (mentioned by Holden as something he'd seen in his own transit but others hadn't) being extra especially peeved about the whole thing.

So my hopes for next season - get rid of Inaros early on (probably unlikely) and then deal with the red and blue horrors the Martians have let loose or ramped up or whatever.

[rozen]

Watching Drummer flip on other Belter ships while basically one-handed was pretty badass. Glad she showed her training with Fred and finally made the tough but necessary choice. Oksana and co were full of judgement, but I bet a dollar they are going to take that free ticket Drummer punched for them by letting their crewmate die on Marco's ship. I think they're really underestimating that being under Marco's thumb was survivable because they were hiding under Drummer's skirts. Good luck out there and good riddance.

The scene of Naomi dying while in free spin and then getting rescued was beautifully shot. It was so claustrophobic and disorienting, even better than a similar scene in Gravity. If Marco hadn't been such trash and driven Naomi to despair and cynicism, I'm pretty sure she would have single-handedly rebuilt the Belter state. She is that tenacious.

The angry hobgoblins were finally fed up and ate someone, huh? I wonder how long it will take for people to realize what happened?

Skeleton vertebrae ship is everything I ever wanted, please more immediately and thank you!

Edited February 3, 2021 by rozen

[hendersonrocks]

Quote

I THINK I understand the "end of credits" image - the Martians have the protomolecule and have used it to "awaken" a ship?machine? of the people who created the protomolecule, hence all the blue lights powering up. All of the angry red whooshing around as the Martians transit the ring is the "other" (mentioned by Holden as something he'd seen in his own transit but others hadn't) being extra especially peeved about the whole thing.

I missed this ENTIRELY. Goodness.

[WildPlum]

3 minutes ago, hendersonrocks said:

I missed this ENTIRELY. Goodness.

The spouse and I were arguing over what the hell happened to the Martians while the credits were rolling and just at the end I saw something out of the corner of my eye and said "Wait, what was that? Play it back!"

It sort of looks like the thing that one of the Martians is reporting to his commander from - he's on the ground in front of a big unicorn-y/phallic looking thing and says something like it being just like Ilis, things are "waking up" on the whole planet.

[mac123x]

I was having a hard time following the sequence of events with Drummer's betrayal:

1. She pulled a gun on [Smug Marco Toady whose name I forgot] and fired a torpedo hitting another ship.  Not sure which one.
2. She blamed it on a malfunction and requested immediate help.
3. Another crewmate tried to free Smug Toady, who then got cracked in the skull
4. Drummer lured another ship (the MCRN frigate I think) in close and blasted it with all weapons, destroying it.
5. The Roci attacked the heavy destroyer, and with assistance from another Belter ship destroyed it.

Right?  

17 hours ago, WildPlum said:

So Marco gets the system between the Ring Gate and Earth and the Martians take everything on the other side of the ring, mining it so that no one can come through?

I think the Martian's mined the exit from Ring-space to the Laconia system.  So Marco has control over every other ring gate including the one to/from Sol.

3 hours ago, Evie said:

I did like the scene with Amos and Holden. "Remember when you threatened to kill me, and we're cool now. So here's Peaches. Totally the same deal."

Clarissa's tentative "Hi" to Holden sold the scene.  He looked utterly baffled.

[Msample]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

There were definitely pacing problems with this season - I blame the plague.

 

 Actually this season finished filming just before the plague broke out, which makes the plot and pacing harder to excuse - they wrapped principal photography in February. 

https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Season_5#:~:text=Filming for Season 5 began,wrapped on February 21%2C 2020.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Msample

[BlackberryJam]

Did they have to cut things, especially the party scene, because of Cas Anvar? So much about that scene was awkward and I wondered if they had to edit carefully or reshoot a few things. 

[Enero]

I agree with a lot what’s already been said. Too much time was spent on Marcos pontificating. Too much time spent on Naomi’s torture and Drummer’s rage. This season was entertaining enough, better than last season, but not as strong as some of the earlier seasons. 

Filip is Marcos son in that he craves respect and adulation. I think he wants to be in control, to be known and to take credit where it is due and more. He’s seen that his father is not all powerful as he’s watched Cyn, Naomi and now Drummer openly challenge him and/or “betray” him. Thus Marcos best sleep with one eye open if he wants to see his dream come to fruition. Cause I think little Filip may be starting to have his own ideas. 

Very happy to see the Rings return and the protomolecule. I like what someone mentioned upthread that perhaps next season the writers can get rid of Marcos early on and spend the remainder of the season exploring the wrath of the aliens living inside the rings.

 

 

[WatchrTina]

4 hours ago, rozen said:

The angry hobgoblins were finally fed up and ate someone, huh?

This is a simply brilliant summary of what happened.  Bravo!

Naomi made a point that she had never killed another Belter. So the attempt to stab Marco was the only time in all five seasons. Now she's calling in a strike on the Chetzie

Did she?  I thought she called in a strike on the boobytrapped, vacant ship she had been trapped on.

Edited February 4, 2021 by WatchrTina

[marinw]

On 2/3/2021 at 5:11 PM, rozen said:

Skeleton vertebrae ship is everything I ever wanted, please more immediately and thank you!

Yes. This.

Glad poor Naomi got rescued, Bobby rescueing her was the classic Badass Bobby we know and love.

I thought Alex's death was as well-handled as was possible under the circumstances. Strokeing out aboard the Razorback has always been a sort of Chekov's gun, it had to happen to somebody at some point.

Steven Strait was great in this episode, his sitting with Naomi and then reuniting with Amos gave me all the feels.

True, the Amazon seasons aren't as strong as the Space Seasons, but this episode was great. 

So "Skinny" is a derogatory/racist term for Belters, glad Holden called Bull out on that.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by marinw

[Kelda Feegle]

8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

 

Marco's survival confused me because of the scene where Holden brings a pad to Naomi in the MedChair and allows her to push a button that does . . . something.  I had HOPED that what she was doing was sending a missile to take out Marco and Filip's ship though, admittedly, that would have been a bit cold-blooded for our Naomi.  She -- presumably -- still has some maternal feelings/guilt with regard to Filip.  But, you know, having to space yourself with almost no air in your suit in order to escape a doomed ship can make a girl cranky.

ETA:  Oooh, wait, was that missile sent to destroy the ship on which Naomi had been trapped -- the one that was (probably) still broadcasting the fake distress call from her and that was rigged to blow up?  Okay, that makes sense.  Holden WOULD remember to tidy up the universe after rescuing Naomi.

 

I thought Naomi blew up the Chetz - the booby trapped ship but then I thought that maybe they gave Alex a space funeral - Holden saying Alex's wife wanted to take care of it (but she left him and wasn't really worthy of that job) so the Roci family did it in respect, Naomi being the one to push the button as he had saved her.

[raven]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Did she?  I thought she called in a strike on the boobytrapped, vacant ship she had been trapped on.

She did - that was the Chetzemoka.

I was prepared to hate the ep because I wanted Alex recast and not killed, but I ended up not hating it.  It was obvious it was hastily put together (Cas Anvar was edited out of the ending party scene - here's a discussion on Reddit about it, with some light book spoilers, so beware if you haven't read them) but at least the character went out saving a family member.   I linked an article in the media topic that talks about it more but it has more book spoilers.

Naomi's efforts to save herself, Bobbie and Alex was nothing short of heroic in itself.   Dominique Tipper did a great job overall, having to convey hope, despair, intelligence and desperation with very little dialogue.  I wish we had seem Bobbie leaving the Razorback to go get her but I suppose there was a prolonged discussion with Alex about that, which was cut.

Oh, hey, Amos?  I know that Clarissa tried to frame Holden and he's the captain but she also tried to kill Naomi, maybe see how Naomi feels about bringing Clarissa on?  I enjoyed his goodbye with Erich.

The space battle was good as they are typically are in this show.

I did like that we got confirmation that Marco sold the protomolecule and Cortazar to a Martian faction in exchange for ships.  Knowing the faction is laying traps on one side of the ring is interesting even though ooops!  something making their ships disappear is a good setup for S6.

Even the little we had of Marco was too much.  I think the actor playing Filip is doing a good job though and it appears he may be trying to think for himself once in a while, which makes him more interesting than Marco (low bar tho).

I think there was a lot more re-editing than what was obvious which accounted for a good portion of the dragginess of the last few eps.  The show has done well in the prior seasons with pacing so I hope with a settled cast and schedule they will have a final season that flows much better.

[Eulipian 5k]

46 minutes ago, Kelda Feegle said:

I thought Naomi blew up the Chetz - the booby trapped ship but then I thought that maybe they gave Alex a space funeral -

The Chetzimoka= Chetz =Chetzie= Chainsmoker blew up IIRC so maybe not a funeral. Was Marco monitoring to see when it exploded?

So sad about the Chetzie, Filip’s first “ride”, lol. (“Mommie drives a Corvette but she buys me an Aztec, WTH?”) No wonder Filip is mad at Naomi, TLS.

[marinw]

Who gets the Razorback? Legally it belongs to Peaches but I can see why she wouldn't make an issue out of it.

Damn. I liked Alex. I am going to remember him as the skilled pilot who took care of his crew and made space lasagne.

9 hours ago, raven said:

I did like that we got confirmation that Marco sold the protomolecule and Cortazar to a Martian faction in exchange for ships.  Knowing the faction is laying traps on one side of the ring is interesting even though ooops!  something making their ships disappear is a good setup for S6.

I asked earlier why some Martians would help Marco. Now we know.

Edited February 4, 2021 by marinw

[Haleth]

I'm very confused, but more about that later.

The battle was thrilling but since I don't know one ship from another (except the Razorback) I couldn't tell who was firing on whom.  It wasn't until it was over that I realized Drummer took out 2 ships.  (Weren't there 4 or 5 originally waiting for the Roci?  What happened to the ones she didn't get?)  And TBS had left already so he didn't witness what occurred?

RIP Alex.  I'm sad for the character but it was a good way to fire the actor.  (There's a good article about this on linked on the homepage.)

Ok, confusion.  What the heck was that ending?  Again, since I don't know one ship from another I don't know who was fighting whom at the ring.  Was TBS there?  Or were those just Martians destroying the ships that guard the ring?  (I do remember that was the commander/ship that Bobbie and Alex were following.)  So they went through the ring and were trying to pass into another system and... then disintegrated?  Why?  What?  But Marco had already sent the PM to that planet and it was being used to wake up the ancient technology?  And Marco said he had mined one side of the ring.  So no one can enter the ring from our system now?

I missed Holden this season but putting him in the background allowed other actors to stand out.  Too much time was spent this season on Naomi alone on the bomb ship and being tortured by Marco, but it really gave Dominique Tipper a chance to shine.  Same for Cara Gee.  Same for Wes Chatham.  But let's keep everyone together next season, okay?

10 hours ago, Kelda Feegle said:

I thought Naomi blew up the Chetz - the booby trapped ship but then I thought that maybe they gave Alex a space funeral

Yeah, I wasn't sure which ship was blown up.  I thought it was the Razorback but the Chetz makes more sense.

17 hours ago, MissLucas said:

AND he was holding Alex's coffee cup in his last scene.

Nice catch.  I wouldn't mind Bull joining the crew.

15 hours ago, WildPlum said:

I THINK I understand the "end of credits" image

I turned it off before the credits were done.  Is there anyplace to see a screen cap?

Edited February 4, 2021 by Haleth

[Tachi Rocinante]

Reasonably pleased with the season, but oh, what could have been . . .

[whiporee]

I'm book spoiled  but it was a long time ago, so i don't remember too much. but since people are asking about the last scene, my take is that it was the rogue Martin faction and Marco taking out the UN and Mars forces around the Ring Gates. The rougue Martians took the protomolecule to a planet that apparently had some old alien stuff on it. That's why the Martian woman was pumping Alex for info as to what happened at New Terra when a piece of protomolecule arrived -- the machines started to wake up. The guy reporting back was the doctor from season one who had his ethics surgically removed, but he was the last guy alive who had studied the protomolecule since the Roci crew or someone killed all the rest. 

They must have been REALLY mad as Avnar to send his character out like that. 

[Netfoot]

On 2/2/2021 at 9:24 PM, BlackberryJam said:

The only parts of the episode that felt like what I’m used to from this show was Drummer and crew and the scene of Amos talking to Holden and bringing Clarissa on board. 

That was also the funniest part of the episode. You could see Amos's plan from the beginning, and you could see Holden falling for it hook, line and sinker!

On 2/3/2021 at 12:19 AM, showme said:

The death of Alex is weird, they just killed him off like that?

Well, they had to get rid of him somehow! I am even wondering if the scene was done in post, with a still from recorded footage and some CGI blood droplets. 

On 2/3/2021 at 12:24 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Glad that Drummer finally had enough of being under Marco's thumb, and went against him.

Yes, but I was hoping for a more violent rebellion from Drummer. Much more violent.

18 hours ago, Evie said:

As much as I like Drummer, I thought too much time was spent on her family drama. We all knew what Drummer would choose. Too much time was also spent on Naomi stranded on the ship.

I believe that many plot points were drawn out during this season, probably due to the difficulties involved in producing a show in a pandemic. It regretfully made for a lack-lustre 

17 hours ago, MissLucas said:

... AND he was holding Alex's coffee cup in his last scene.

So I noticed! The implications were not lost on me.

10 hours ago, raven said:

Naomi's efforts to save herself, Bobbie and Alex was nothing short of heroic in itself.   Dominique Tipper did a great job overall, having to convey hope, despair, intelligence and desperation with very little dialogue.

Actually, I thought the moany-groany wincing and flinching was hammed up a bit. But this is because those scenes went on and on and wouldn't stop.

 

[MissLucas]

As for the confusion around the last scene with Sauveterre's ship presumably being eaten by the hobgoblins residing inside the gates as @rozen put it so poetically above: they should have included a scene of Holden talking about sensing a presence within the Ring/Gates in the 'previously' section. It's been a while (I've read the books and had forgotten about it) and it was one of those blink-and-you-miss-it moments so a reminder would have been helpful.

[marinw]

Sauveterre demanding that Babbage hand over her Mom's bracelet was so creepy and controlling. Babbage could have just kept the bracelet in her pocket or something. Not that it matters now,

[MissLucas]

The bracelet scene illustrated that this rogue faction is veering into totalitarianism. Even though we came to like the show's resident Martians there was always a whiff of that around Mars. When Bobbie was introduced she was every war-monger's wet dream of a soldier, full of ideology and just waiting to get unleashed. She only started to think for herself when she realized that she and her team had been used as guinea-pigs. Although there were always cooler heads around on Mars it's clear that with the end of the terraforming dream the more rabid factions are gaining momentum.

[hendersonrocks]

Quote

I'm book spoiled  but it was a long time ago, so i don't remember too much. but since people are asking about the last scene, my take is that it was the rogue Martin faction and Marco taking out the UN and Mars forces around the Ring Gates. The rougue Martians took the protomolecule to a planet that apparently had some old alien stuff on it. That's why the Martian woman was pumping Alex for info as to what happened at New Terra when a piece of protomolecule arrived -- the machines started to wake up. The guy reporting back was the doctor from season one who had his ethics surgically removed, but he was the last guy alive who had studied the protomolecule since the Roci crew or someone killed all the rest. 

This is significantly clearer and more helpful than the actual episode. Thanks (and ugh - do better, show runners).

[Eulipian 5k]

4 hours ago, marinw said:

Who gets the Razorback? Legally it belongs to Peaches but I can see why she wouldn't make an issue out of it

Earlier on in the season as they were going to follow the Barkieth, Bobby was arguing to Alex that the Razorback was  "technically" her  salvage from Pappa Mao, lol.

Someone reeeally needs to re-work the Ring battle scene with little 'flags' identifying each ship and whose navy they're from. Maybe Marco could release his own You Tube video of the battle so we can "look upon his works and despair".

Is Claimossa a thing now? Ie is Peaches in Amos' quarters  or will she be on her own? The Roci is becoming the Love Boat!

[tennisgurl]

Well it took an entire season, but the Rocinante crew has finally reunited, and just in time for the final season. This episode was so jam packed with stuff that it felt like this could have been at least three episodes, which honestly would have been welcomed. I enjoyed a lot of aspects of this season, but I would say its the weakest season of the show, it felt like three or four episodes stretched out into a whole season, with a million subplots that all seemed to hit the same points over and over again, so we finally get tons of plot movement in the very last episode all stuffed into one to set up for the next season. The show was hurt by having the Rocinante crew all separated, which maybe worked alright in the book, but in the show we lost out on a big part of the shows best dynamics, and also broke the show up into a ton of subplots, many of which never fully justified the time they got. The interactions between the Rocinante are often some of the best parts of the show, especially as they try to deal with these larger than life forces around them, and the show really seemed to lose its center with everyone separated. It wasn't an awful season or anything, it had a lot of threads that I really liked and things like the effects and the acting were as great as ever, but it was just losing that spark that makes this show so special. 

I knew they were going to get rid of Cas Anver, but I thought they might recast him or say that Alex went back to Mars to reconnect with his family, I didn't see him having a stroke in space while saving Naomi coming at all. When Bobbie was trying to talk to him on the radio, I was super confused as to what happened, I missed the blood until I watched again. It sucks losing Alex, especially under these circumstances, but as I have thought about it more, I think it works pretty well. He died saving Naomi, which is at least a good way to go, and it did show the dangers of space travel in a really effective way. The characters zip around space so often, its easy to forget that it really is dangerous, and having it be Alex who dies, after years of watching him do hot shot pilot tricks, just makes the danger even more real. 

I LOVED seeing Drummer finally going against Marco and his stupid smug smirk, it was inevitable that she would get sick of living under his thumb, she is way too badass for his bullshit. I am still hoping that she gets to dump him out an airlock in the future though, and it sucks that one of her crew was killed because Marco is a petty murdering shit. Yeah, we can see how much he cares about the Belters, spacing ones who piss him off, even if they didn't personally do anything. His face glowing when his lackeys were all cheering his name pretty much says it all. He doesn't care about helping Belters, this is all just one big ego trip where he becomes feared and loved and powerful. 

There were a lot of beautiful shots this episode, especially the epic space battle, the Martian ship being...whatever happened to it, and Naomi out in space. Shooting her spiraling around focusing on just her face was really well done, it let us get really up close into the fear and despair she was feeling, and we felt the relief right along with her when we could hear Bobbie over her coms right next to her. 

The reunion between the surviving Rocinante crew was really great, it did feel like we had finally come home again. That hug between Amos and Naomi went on for a LONG time, it was so great, I missed all of them together so much. And of course that leads to Amos, in a very roundabout Amos kind of way, asking Holden if Peaches can join the crew. I can totally see his logic, in a very Amos kind of way. "So we got off on the wrong foot and you would have killed me, and now we're tight, so the same thing can happen again right? Bygones and all that?" Then Holden's hilarious baffled reaction, as he continues wondering how he got to this point in his life. I am also glad we got confirmation that his parents are all alive, and that Chrisjen went to get them somewhere safe. Poor Holden has enough on his plate without losing any more family. 

Monica really emerged as a character this season, her interactions with Holden and their crew were all great, and she was consistently very competent and helpful, despite being very out of her element for most of the season, she just rolled with the punches. 

I am glad that we are are to be doing more with the rings and the protomolecules more next season, I missed those elements this season a lot. So now we have the protomolecules, Marco (fucking Marco) and this rouge faction of Martians trying to create some new more totalitarian version of Mars, all coming together for a big fight for the last season. This all sounds really promising, I am hoping to close this show out with a bang. It will be sad to see the show end, even after a season that wasn't quite up to the quality of the previous seasons (but did have a lot of really good aspects) but it seems like they have a lot of great things on the horizon. 

[marinw]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

He died saving Naomi, which is at least a good way to go, and it did show the dangers of space travel in a really effective way.

This death respected and acknowledged the character of Alex if not the actor. I thought it a little wierd that the rest of the crew didn't seem more grief-striken, but that may well be a matter of the show wrapping before Cas Anvar was fired, or perhpas the loss hasn't really sunk in yet.

I like that Bobbie is working with Avasalara. Bobbie has sometimes been dismissed as only a soilder, but we have seen that she is capable of so much more and may be more adept at navigating the political sphere than we think.

The Party on Luna was fun, and Avasalara seemed to be in a fine mood, but what where they celebrating exactly? Or was this just for morale and to do something nice for what's left of the Roci Crew?

Edited February 4, 2021 by marinw

[marinw]

The ships docking alongt with he Roci at Luna:

Puer Stella

Thutmosa's Lotus

Chaka Zula

UNN Intrepid

UNN Dora Miller

I'm sure there are some in-jokes that are going right over my head.

Edited February 5, 2021 by marinw

[redpencil]

15 hours ago, Netfoot said:

I believe that many plot points were drawn out during this season, probably due to the difficulties involved in producing a show in a pandemic. It regretfully made for a lack-lustre 

Pretty sure production wrapped before the pandemic, so that doesn't explain it. I think they just tried to do too little plot over too many episodes. This all should have been condensed down to half the episodes, and do the other half of the season on whatever ring/protomolecule business is going to happen now (continuing into S6). I would hope there's enough remaining plot that could have been covered in S6, but I haven't read the books.

In any case, at least the crew its back together finally. Sad there was no resolution to Marcos/Filip.

My take on what happened to the Martian ship wasn't that it actually disintegrated or got eaten or whatever. I think that was them taking creative license to show whatever it is that Holden had sensed when going through the ring. Don't know if they're inhabiting the ship/crew now, or what. But something is going to go down with these "beings".

[blackwing]

I am thrilled that Alex and that POS Cas Anvar are gone.  It did look to me like they took footage and just took a screenshot and added in some CGI blood.  Not sure if new scenes were shot after production wrapped to address the death, but it would make sense.

Loved the reception on Luna.  Just seemed so perfect and naturally futuristic, life on a lunar colony, with the scenes out the window of life happening and space cars zipping along.

I found this season frustrating and had no idea what was going on at times (I couldn’t even tell what was happening during the space battle), but I liked this finale’s setup for the final season and hopefully the death of Marcos.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, blackwing said:

I am thrilled that Alex and that POS Cas Anvar are gone.  It did look to me like they took footage and just took a screenshot and added in some CGI blood.  Not sure if new scenes were shot after production wrapped to address the death, but it would make sense.

The shot with Alex supposedly dead really confused me, I thought he was just looking at something in horror/surprise and totally missed the blood. It makes sense to me that they just used a shot they had in the can. It would certainly be really uncomfortable to have Cas Anver shoot Alex's death scene. I mean for everyone else, not so much Cas, who I don't care about given everything. I know other people leaving shows have done this - but I'm thinking (with very little knowledge) that they weren't people who were booted out for being a POS.

[whiporee]

One thing that really bugged me was the cocktail party at the end. Earth is still degree of chaos; many people are suffering there in lots of ways. It may not be apocalypse, but there's plenty of bad going on down there and as much as she prefers interplanetary intrigue, Chrisjen's got a lot of shit to deal with down there and if she's the leader of Earth her ass needs to be paying attention to that rather than planning a war. 

And frankly, she ought to have been tired. I'd have much rather see her dealing with the more immediate problem she's facing than only the long-term one. It's a space show, but her little happy speech at the end, with everyone clean and well dressed and drinking feel totally out of touch with the rest of the season and the reality of what was going on on Earth. 

[AudienceofOne]

I've been the one defending this season from accusations of pacing problems but honestly the pacing in this episode was terrible. Maybe there were post-production issues around a certain skeezeball who shall not be named but it was like the season built up to a climax of everyone being reunited but instead just skipped over it quickly, went straight into falling action and then built up quickly to a cliffhanger that seemed unrelated to most of the season's back half.

When Naomi launched herself out the airlock into space, that was such a perfect episode ending. The battle with Drummer turning on Marcos should have happened in episode 9 with the ending of that episode being Naomi spinning into darkness. Then episode 10 should have started with her being rescued, skeezeball's brain explosion and then everyone reconnecting properly. Then we could have spent the last half of that episode on whatever was going on with the Martian faction, the Belters and the rings at the end.

The pacing in this episode reminded me of the second season where things went both too slow and too fast at the same time.

Don't get me wrong, this is still the best show on TV by far. And I understand they were dealing with having to edit a character out. But I can't say this was my favourite season all up.

Also why spend a good 10 seconds in slow motion of watching TLS with a weapon he's definitely going to use to shoot his own father and then not have him shoot his own father? Chekhov is generally considered right on this issue.