S04.E10: War

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Amid a growing challenge to her power, Thatcher fights for her position. Charles grows more determined to separate from Diana as their marriage unravels.

Dropping on Sunday, November 15, 2020.

[swanpride]

So...all in all I think I liked this one slightly better than the last season, but honestly, I still could use a little more history and a little less circular whining. I think that four episodes about the woes of Charles and Diana were one too much (and honestly, the idea that "he is a mature man and she is a child" sounds kind of ridiculous considering that she acts way more like an adult than he does in the show).

But I think what bothered me the most is that they just skipped over what Thatcher actually did to the country (other than vague mentions about it being different than beforehand and even more vague mentions regarding Europe) and over this small insignificant event which is the end of the cold war. I mean, I know that they can't cover everything, nor should they, and I certainly didn't expect a whole episode about it, but I certainly expected more than an aside mention of Bush, Kohl and Gorbatschow. I admit, I was kind of looking forward to see the reaction of the royals to it (After all, it is one of the top ten events which happened between the 1950s and now for sure).

Plus, its a good thing that the next season is already announced, because this one feels unfinished. Which, frankly, it didn't have to be. They just could have ended with the notion of an end of an era between Thatcher leaving and British troops leaving Germany, thus basically concluding the aftermath of WWII. But due to the huge focus on Charles and Diana, this feels like half of a story, because everyone KNOWS that is half of a story.

But I guess most people would want exactly that from a show like this, as much Charles of Diana as possible. I might be one of the few who is actually more interested in events which haven't been part of every single royals special in the last 20 years.

[Lamima]

I like the show for the more inner turmoil of the Royal family. So I am happy with all the Charles and Diana stuff. It was a huge part of the Royal storyline. Being that Charles and Diana's son will be King someday. Unless, of course, they dump the totally irrelevant and useless Royal family. Time to drop it. Let them become just another Uber rich family. No ties to govt...no govt money.

[Kiddvideo]

Liked it except for the Charles and Diana parts which I found eye-rolling and tedious. HM’s take down of Charles was well overdue, but maybe Phillip’s “we’re all as meaningless as you are” approach was better for Diana. Much more existentially bleak than being told to quit your bitching.

Surprised there was no mention as to how Thatcher stayed in office so long, but her refusal to support the Commonwealth’s condemnation of apartheid along with her 1980’s version of “shit hole countries” put her in direct confrontation with both HM and today’s mores. Makes better drama I suppose.

I thought Helena Bonham Carter nailed “The Heredity Principle.” It might be my favorite episode in S4, and my all time favorite of PM.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Kiddvideo
Change a word

[swanpride]

A detail I liked about the last episode was Diana standing there all dressed up instead of being part of the "walk through the woods" crowd, set apart in a setting in which she supposedly fit in perfectly originally.

[dubstepford wife]

I kept waiting for the episode to end with Andrew Morton being invited to Kensington Palace to begin recordings for his book, since it seemed like Diana was fully ready to burn that castle to the ground.  She's done.  And good for her.

Charles.  You have been screaming for the past two seasons about how the royals are unfeeling, uncaring, and unkind.  And then you turn around and say that you hug the people you care about, while refusing to hug your son goodbye (or to cheer him on in his rugby game) after visiting him at school.  You say hugging people with AIDS is something anyone could do were it not for the "spectacle," yet you are incapable of showing any feelings at all for anyone except yourself and Camilla.  Even your own children seem to not matter to you.  It's so ironic, considering how he grew up always feeling like no one cared.  I don't know how much fictional Charles resembles real Charles, but this version is despicable.  Absolutely vile.  A selfish, hypocritical monster. 

I love how they included the scene of Diana preparing to throw up, then stopping herself.  She is finally figuring out that she doesn't need his approval to feel a sense of self-worth, and that for years he's been gaslighting her.

I'm very excited for season five.  Who knows when we'll get it, but I'm looking forward to it.

[Lamima]

3 hours ago, dubstepford wife said:

I kept waiting for the episode to end with Andrew Morton being invited to Kensington Palace to begin recordings for his book, since it seemed like Diana was fully ready to burn that castle to the ground.  She's done.  And good for her.

Charles.  You have been screaming for the past two seasons about how the royals are unfeeling, uncaring, and unkind.  And then you turn around and say that you hug the people you care about, while refusing to hug your son goodbye (or to cheer him on in his rugby game) after visiting him at school.  You say hugging people with AIDS is something anyone could do were it not for the "spectacle," yet you are incapable of showing any feelings at all for anyone except yourself and Camilla.  Even your own children seem to not matter to you.  It's so ironic, considering how he grew up always feeling like no one cared.  I don't know how much fictional Charles resembles real Charles, but this version is despicable.  Absolutely vile.  A selfish, hypocritical monster. 

I love how they included the scene of Diana preparing to throw up, then stopping herself.  She is finally figuring out that she doesn't need his approval to feel a sense of self-worth, and that for years he's been gaslighting her.

I'm very excited for season five.  Who knows when we'll get it, but I'm looking forward to it.

Vile. That is the best descriptive of Prince Charles.

Another thing that didn't seem to add up was when the Thatchers went to holiday with the royal family. Thatchers left because they just didn't gel and she said to her husband that they were not classy and civilized or some such. Thatcher was stuffy and didn't bring outdoor shoes ad had zero interest in hunting. She wanted to work. Yet she didn't know any of the rules of the upper class and royal family so she just kept irritating the royals. ANd they showed the royals all loosened up and having fun together (sitting around in outdoor clothes joking about the hunt and then playing games after dinner). Yet they had formalities about when dinner was and what to wear which was stuffy. But they were trying to say Thatchers were stuffy. Then, episodes later, the queen has to schedule luncheons with each of her children to see who is her fave and she requests a 411 from her staff on each of her kids (what they are doing and what they like cause she doesn't know them). But the holiday episode tried to portray them as a down to earth fun loving family who were close. Just not adding up to me. ARe they unloving, cold, stuffy, formal, antiquated....blah blah blah? Or are they fun loving, jovial, joking, caring tight knit down to earth? And were the Thatchers stuffy formal snotty bores? She was always cooking and ironing and doing normal things the queen would never even dare to do. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, dubstepford wife said:

Charles.  You have been screaming for the past two seasons about how the royals are unfeeling, uncaring, and unkind.  And then you turn around and say that you hug the people you care about, while refusing to hug your son goodbye (or to cheer him on in his rugby game) after visiting him at school.  You say hugging people with AIDS is something anyone could do were it not for the "spectacle," yet you are incapable of showing any feelings at all for anyone except yourself and Camilla.  Even your own children seem to not matter to you.  It's so ironic, considering how he grew up always feeling like no one cared.  I don't know how much fictional Charles resembles real Charles, but this version is despicable.  Absolutely vile.  A selfish, hypocritical monster. 

I have read that Charles hugged his sons in private, but not in public for to him it would be an "act". So it seems that he interprets Diana's motives to be the same as his would have been if he had behaved like she (which is a quite usual way).

Spoiler

However, in Dimblely's book and interview Charles blamed his parents. He was over 40 at that time so it was really unmature.  

Evidently Camilla and Charles suited for each other: Charles needed Camilla for love and admiration and Camilla liked to be needed.  

[leighdear]

On 11/15/2020 at 1:56 PM, swanpride said:

But I guess most people would want exactly that from a show like this, as much Charles of Diana as possible. I might be one of the few who is actually more interested in events which haven't been part of every single royals special in the last 20 years.

On the contrary, many of us who were grown adults, working, and raising families at that time are more interested in what we did NOT read in PEOPLE magazine each week.  

Just as we didn't need to see the wedding of Diana & Charles, because we watched it when it happened.  

I think the depth of political & social commentary about the events of the time in these threads thus far should indicate that we're not all superficial twits just looking for more speculation about who Harry's daddy might be.  

[Runningwild]

Prince Charles is the worst. That is all. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Charles looks and acts like a cold limp penis. I don't know how else to describe him, he is always so lifeless. 

Adding insult to injury is him wanting to leave Diana, not vice versa. I wish she had developed the self-confidence she needed to leave that dark cloud shrouded in the body of an 80 years old man. What a miserable piece of shit.

On another note, the show leaned too heavily on Diana's simpering at the flashing lights. That is directions and acting choices but the bulimia scenes where just too excessive 

[swanpride]

Quote

I think the depth of political & social commentary about the events of the time in these threads thus far should indicate that we're not all superficial twits just looking for more speculation about who Harry's daddy might be.  

Lol...not my intention to imply anything like this. I just assumed that those who actually read and watch everything related to Diana would like to see as much as possible of her, hence they tried to please the "Queen of hearts" crowd. The show runners have to keep a balance between the history buffs and the ones who are there for the family drama. I feel that the history buffs kind of got the short stick for the second season in a row.

[Umbelina]

One of the most disgusting things Charles does starts this episode.  Running to mommy to tattle on his wife cheating, after never answering her calls, and blatantly carrying on with his married mistress is one of the most disgusting displays of lack of manhood, lack of  honor, and abundant hypocrisy I've ever seen.

As for history?  I enjoyed the portrayal of Thatcher, and her downfall, after the near crisis with the Queen interfering earlier.   While I think a few other aspects of "history" would have been, or could have been, better?  There are plenty of shows out there for that, and youtubes of history, and we all know it anyway.

Focusing on those that directly had impact on THE CROWN is understandable to me, and the Thatcher/Queen conflicts and understandings both?  Did that well.

I loved that the Queen pinned that order on the defeated Thatcher, but I was distracted when she then left without the box.  It's not good that I was so taken out of the scene by that, the woman can't possibly always wear it, and wouldn't the box be almost as meaningful as the ribbon for her?  ha...yeah, I know, it's dumb.

I dislike Thatcher and her Ayn Rand views immensely, but there was something to admire in her as well.  I think the show walked that line fairly well, as it has with the other PM's.

[Ellaria]

On 11/15/2020 at 2:56 PM, swanpride said:

But I guess most people would want exactly that from a show like this, as much Charles of Diana as possible. I might be one of the few who is actually more interested in events which haven't been part of every single royals special in the last 20 years.

Hmm...

IMO, this show has never been about the politics of the UK over the last 50 years. Instead, it has been about how the Queen and the royal family has reacted to the politics of the time and how it has affected the shifting sands under the monarchy itself. Equally, it is about how and if the monarchy can survive.

I think that Morgan has achieved a satisfactory balance over the years. It is a dramatization of those events - one man's interpretation - and not a documentary. Yes, he has played with facts and with chronology. He is creating entertainment. With that in mind, I expected to see a LOT of Charles and Diana this season and not because I'm fascinated with the "soap opera" of it all. I wanted to see how he presented Charles. I wanted to see how the family reacted to the drama. I am primarily interested in Morgan's interpretation of these people and these events. Truthfully, Diana had a huge affect on the monarchy and on the public's perception of it.

I've seen a ton of documentaries about C&D and the royal family. I also remember these events when they happened. Sure, there has been "fluff" during the four seasons of this show. But we have also gotten episodes like "Vergangenheit" and "Hereditary Principle" which caused me to learn more about these incidents and the royal family itself.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Ellaria Sand

[AZChristian]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I loved that the Queen pinned that order on the defeated Thatcher, but I was distracted when she then left without the box.  It's not good that I was so taken out of the scene by that, the woman can't possibly always wear it, and wouldn't the box be almost as meaningful as the ribbon for her?  ha...yeah, I know, it's dumb.

 I was distracted by that as well.  With two women in the room, wouldn't ONE of them have thought to make sure Thatcher took the box with her????  

[Jeeves]

I was also distracted by Maggie T leaving HM's presence without the box for her Order of Merit. I thought, well, HM does have many people working for her who can deliver the box to the Thatcher house later. But how interesting that my mind would go there at all. And now I know it wasn't just me who noticed the box.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Jeeves

[swanpride]

Strangely I was thinking more in the direction of "hopefully that isn't her favourite dress". Because those needle holes can really ruin a great garment.

[Silly Angel]

I really loved this season, but it distracted me that the show decided Young Camilla looked like Young Julie Christie. She did not. A huge part of Diana's currency was her beauty, and she knew she could trade on it to move upwards, so her well-earned jealousy of Charles' fanatical attachment to Camilla must have particularly burned. I would like for the show to have even briefly explored her anger and confusion not just that Charles was cheating the whole time they were married, but cheating with THAT (rude, sorry--I'm just trying to get into her mindset). Nothing she had worked on her husband; he resented everything that made her fresh--her youth, enthusiasm, impetuosity, and way with people. The only other thing she had was her looks, and Charles wanted someone with ... considerably less of that currency to spend.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Silly Angel said:

I really loved this season, but it distracted me that the show decided Young Camilla looked like Young Julie Christie. She did not. A huge part of Diana's currency was her beauty, and she knew she could trade on it to move upwards, so her well-earned jealousy of Charles' fanatical attachment to Camilla must have particularly burned.

I agree with your point and I agree that Diana must have wondered how Charles could possibly prefer Camilla when she herself was so much prettier.  However, I think the show did a great job with the casting of Camilla.  Google Images has some young pictures of Camilla showing a very pretty girl with almost exactly the same profile as the actress.  On the other hand, I thought Emma Corrin was far too round faced and snub nosed to play Diana who had a narrow face and long nose.  Worse to me was that Corrin never got Diana's constant head down eyes rolled up posture.  

I was happy with the season and thought we got a much more balanced view of the couple than the usual story that Charles is completely evil and Diana is all that is holy.  The queen's last speech to him was well deserved but I'm glad she tacked on the ending bit that said Diana was just as bad and Phillip's last speech to Diana was also spot on, once he realized that while he had leaned that it was ultimately all about the Queen, Diana still thought it was all about her own self and all the "love and admiration I deserve!"  

[Spartan Girl]

16 hours ago, Runningwild said:

Prince Charles is the worst. That is all. 

Indeed. I had ten rage strokes watching him scream at Diana. I don't know what made me hate him more: accusing her of trying to make the royals look bad by giving a child with AIDS a hug** or berating her for making Camilla feel bad. And the cherry to top the asshole sundae, his playing the victim and refusing to take responsibility for the marriage. Dude, your parents made you seal the deal, but YOU are the one who pumped her sister (your ex) for information about her, YOU invited her to Balmoral, and you STILL married her while keeping Camilla close. So glad Elizabeth ripped him a new one.

**No, Diana didn't use the child as a publicity stunt to make herself look better than Charles. She saw a sick child who was sad and lonely and like any human being she wanted to make him feel better, even for a second. The fact that the cameras were there was irrelevant.

It was strange that Philip of all people offered her sympathy, in his own way.

Watching Thatcher's downfall was interesting, in light of..well, I can't say it outright. I did almost feel sorry for her -- almost.

This season was a nice escape. Is the next one going to be the last? Olivia Coleman did a great job...now it's time for Umbridge.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Atlanta]

They really did make Charles satan in this season.

[WatchrTina]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I loved that the Queen pinned that order on the defeated Thatcher, but I was distracted when she then left without the box. 

Oh me too!  Isn't it funny the things that one notices?

 

11 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

I enjoyed watching the Queen give it to Chuck as well, long overdue. No one was actually stopping him from spending time with Camilla or whoever they just wanted it all to appear like a happy family on the surface.

That reminded me of a fact of royal life that has always irked me.  There was a time when, in England, having an affaire with the Princess of Wales (or the Queen) was an act of treason, punishable by death.  At the same time, being the acknowledged mistress of the Prince of Wales (or the King) was actually an "honored" position in society.  I understand it -- the King producing a handful of bastard children would have no impact on the line of succession but the Queen having an affaire could result in an heir to the throne that was NOT of the royal bloodline, and that would then call into question the whole "divine right of kings" that underlies monarchies.  But still, that double-standard pisses me off (though, based on Diana's behavior this season, she wasn't too concerned about it.)

 

Well, I'm sad this season is over.  I didn't enjoy this season as much as prior seasons and I think that is due -- in part -- to my having lived through the events shown in this season, while the prior seasons were much more revelatory to me.  I look forward to Season 5 but, given that they're going to make us wait a year and a half for it, I'm feeling a bit frustrated right now.  But I guess if that's how long it takes to brings us all those amazing scenes, filmed in locations that can pass for the real thing, then that's what it takes.

 

[nora1992]

6 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I was also distracted by Maggie T leaving HM's presence without the box for her Order of Merit. I thought, well, HM does have many people working for her who can deliver the box to the Thatcher house later. But how interesting that my mind would go there at all. And now I know it wasn't just me who noticed the box.

Perhaps one of the palace mice delivered it?  But episode after episode, I find myself agreeing with Fagan in that the buildings need work.

[Ellaria]

2 hours ago, Atlanta said:

They really did make Charles satan in this season.

They truly did and I’m enjoying every minute of it.

I’m rewatching this episode and throwing pillows at the screen during his confrontation with Diana after her trip to NY. Did he really mention HER capacity for self-delusion?! Someone needs to look in the mirror. And Diana supposedly hurt Camilla because she was demonstrably kind to a child in a hospital! He also used every opportunity to question her mental health. Charles is really an insufferable, insecure, self-absorbed fool!

I obviously have no idea of how “real” Charles behaved or what he said. I also have no clue what he thinks of this show. However, this characterization is about as unflattering as it gets.

Olivia Colman and Tobias Menzies made the most of their final scenes in these roles; they were excellent.

My only issue with this episode is making the last scene all about Diana. I guess that means that they have lit the match for what will come in S5.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Ellaria Sand

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

I really loved this season, but it distracted me that the show decided Young Camilla looked like Young Julie Christie. She did not. A huge part of Diana's currency was her beauty, and she knew she could trade on it to move upwards, so her well-earned jealousy of Charles' fanatical attachment to Camilla must have particularly burned. I would like for the show to have even briefly explored her anger and confusion not just that Charles was cheating the whole time they were married, but cheating with THAT (rude, sorry--I'm just trying to get into her mindset). Nothing she had worked on her husband; he resented everything that made her fresh--her youth, enthusiasm, impetuosity, and way with people. The only other thing she had was her looks, and Charles wanted someone with ... considerably less of that currency to spend.

I have noticed that when a handsome man has nothing interesting to say, he doesn't look handsome any more whereas when I grow to like an interesting man, I begin like his looks. Of course I don't know how it is with men.

It's told that Camilla was sexy, warm, great fun and sporty. She had no sudden mood changes (unlike Diana), had common hobbies with Charles and, most of all, gave him admiration he had longed for all his life and cheered him up, in a way "mothered" him. Obviously she was perfect to him and has made him happy. 

[greekmom]

On 11/16/2020 at 5:05 PM, Roseanna said:

I have read that Charles hugged his sons in private, but not in public for to him it would be an "act". So it seems that he interprets Diana's motives to be the same as his would have been if he had behaved like she (which is a quite usual way).

  Hide contents

However, in Dimblely's book and interview Charles blamed his parents. He was over 40 at that time so it was really unmature.  

Evidently Camilla and Charles suited for each other: Charles needed Camilla for love and admiration and Camilla liked to be needed.  

I never will understand why Charles never married Camilla when she was single. 

4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Indeed. I had ten rage strokes watching him scream at Diana. I don't know what made me hate him more: accusing her of trying to make the royals look bad by giving a child with AIDS a hug** or berating her for making Camilla feel bad. And the cherry to top the asshole sundae, his playing the victim and refusing to take responsibility for the marriage. Dude, your parents made you seal the deal, but YOU are the one who pumped her sister (your ex) for information about her, YOU invited her to Balmoral, and you STILL married her while keeping Camilla close. So glad Elizabeth ripped him a new one.

It was strange that Philip of all people offered her sympathy, in his own way.

I had heard that Phillip had a soft spot for Diana which was evident in the last scene. I cannot believe what an ass Charles was to Diana or how he blamed her for Camilla feeling bad. Boo hoo for the bitch.

[Umbelina]

8 hours ago, AZChristian said:

 I was distracted by that as well.  With two women in the room, wouldn't ONE of them have thought to make sure Thatcher took the box with her????  

So glad it wasn't just me!

8 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I was also distracted by Maggie T leaving HM's presence without the box for her Order of Merit. I thought, well, HM does have many people working for her who can deliver the box to the Thatcher house later. But how interesting that my mind would go there at all. And now I know it wasn't just me who noticed the box.

I think they were trying to show that Thatcher, the Iron Lady, was too distraught to remember the box, which makes sense.  

Then I made up this little story in my head that the Queen sends it to her with a nice little note.

7 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

I really loved this season, but it distracted me that the show decided Young Camilla looked like Young Julie Christie. She did not. A huge part of Diana's currency was her beauty, and she knew she could trade on it to move upwards, so her well-earned jealousy of Charles' fanatical attachment to Camilla must have particularly burned. I would like for the show to have even briefly explored her anger and confusion not just that Charles was cheating the whole time they were married, but cheating with THAT (rude, sorry--I'm just trying to get into her mindset). Nothing she had worked on her husband; he resented everything that made her fresh--her youth, enthusiasm, impetuosity, and way with people. The only other thing she had was her looks, and Charles wanted someone with ... considerably less of that currency to spend.

I said in another post somewhere, relating a personal story from when I was a young virgin in love with a boy who was seduced by an older "experienced" woman that I think it's the opposite.  When you are young, you are not always aware of the power and beauty of youth.  As a virgin, my supposition is that Diana may have felt that Camilla knew about sex, and was more exciting, and Diana's skill levels there were lacking, because she didn't know that much about sex.

2 hours ago, nora1992 said:

Perhaps one of the palace mice delivered it?  But episode after episode, I find myself agreeing with Fagan in that the buildings need work.

Mrs. Kennedy's remarks in that episode immediately came back to me when Fagan said that!  Dilapidated and what else was it?  

2 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I never will understand why Charles never married Camilla when she was single. 

I had heard that Phillip had a soft spot for Diana which was evident in the last scene. I cannot believe what an ass Charles was to Diana or how he blamed her for Camilla feeling bad. Boo hoo for the bitch.

I've read a lot about this over many years, and yes, it's certainly just a guess, but in general, here is my guess (and this episode backs that up quite a bit in several scenes, specifically those between Charles and Camilla.)

I think Camilla was absolutely in love and in lust with her husband, and it never changed.  Perhaps he was simply spectacular in bed, or they were a great match there.  He was a cheat though, like Philip and so many others, and that had to hurt.  So, she gets her emotional needs filled by the adoring and always available Charles, the besotted second-best, and future King, so a spectacular ego building catch among her friends.

(Charles gives everything Diana desires to Camilla, and Camilla is a smart cookie, she knows how needy and pathetically desperate for admiration Charles is, and lavishes it on him to keep him around.)

That's just my take on things.  Great sex can be so powerful, and not just for men.  I think, primarily, Charles was a bandaid and distraction from the man she truly loved and lusted for, her husband, not finding her "enough."

[Helena Dax]

I really liked  Philip and his conversation with Diana. And he has a point. I mean, I don't think you should marry into any Royal Family if you're expecting warmth and emotional support. They aren't normal families and the Crown is going to come first every time. In Spain, the King has broken up with half of his closest family to protect the Crown. 

It amazes me that the Queen is able to have a moment of kindness for Margaret Thatcher, of all people, yet she seems usually unable to do the same for the members of her family. The bit about feeding the dogs was brutal.

I've never been interested in Diana, but if there's something I admire about her is her work with AIDS patients. She definitely made a difference. And no, Charles, you wouldn't have hugged that kid in your life.

I can only imagine that the Royal Family is less than thrilled about this season. I really enjoyed it, though.

[dubbel zout]

16 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I had heard that Phillip had a soft spot for Diana which was evident in the last scene.

He gave her a wink when she greeted him in the last episode at that meeting to discuss the marriage. I think he felt for her as a fellow outsider (he certainly knows what it's like to marry the heir to the throne), but then she let the side down.

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Camilla is a smart cookie, she knows how needy and pathetically desperate for admiration Charles is, and lavishes it on him to keep him around.

I don't think it's quite that calculated. Camilla mentioned she likes being needed, something her husband doesn't give her. I can't imagine the prestige of being the Prince of Wales's mistress would outweigh the constant, continual emotional propping Charles needs if you don't have feelings for the guy. Especially since she was doing it for years, even before Diana came onto the scene.

7 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I can only imagine that the Royal Family is less than thrilled about this season. I really enjoyed it, though.

I don't think it's been worse that what the tabloids have written over the years. They are BRUTAL when they want to be.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't think it's quite that calculated. Camilla mentioned she likes being needed, something her husband doesn't give her. I can't imagine the prestige of being the Prince of Wales's mistress would outweigh the constant, continual emotional propping Charles needs if you don't have feelings for the guy. Especially since she was doing it for years, even before Diana came onto the scene.

I think it was calculated, for the reasons I stated above.

Yes, she needed him too, or him as "future King" and constantly adoring her, and giving her the attention that was often lacking from her true love, her husband.  However, had Charles been a regular guy, or even a regular rich guy with a minor title?  No, I don't think she would have ever gotten in that deep.  It was a combination of getting what she needed, easily able to give Charles what he needed, some real level of friendship, and the cache of banging the future King, and later, perhaps even of winning over the most admired/famous/beautiful/beloved superstar of the time, Diana.

That all can be pretty heady stuff.

[Ms Blue Jay]

 

On 11/17/2020 at 4:23 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

And Diana supposedly hurt Camilla because she was demonstrably kind to a child in a hospital!

Oh, what an asshole.  No idea if that argument happened IRL but that scene was mind boggling.

I'll be honest.  While I really enjoyed Tobias Menzies I don't really get all the praise for Olivia Colman.  I've only watched 2 episodes of The Crown before this season and I was totally blown away with what little I'd seen of Claire Foy.  She does so much with her eyes, I was really amazed by her.  I've no idea what I'm supposed to get from Olivia this season unless the whole point is to put her in the background.  If so, well it worked.  Charles was an awful character but I really did like Josh O'Connor's acting.  Maybe I just tend to prefer showier performances.  I'm pretty much impressed by everyone, Emma Corrin, Gillian Anderson definitely, I just don't really get the whole Olivia thing.  

The portrayal of Camilla was too sympathetic, I think.  Which was already halfway proven by the "conventional beauty" actor that they chose to play her.  I wouldn't speak ill of Camilla's looks per se but why be so obvious about making the portrayal so glowing?

(Removed premiere date talk.)

Edited November 19, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[rozen]

On 11/16/2020 at 4:00 PM, Lamima said:

Then, episodes later, the queen has to schedule luncheons with each of her children to see who is her fave and she requests a 411 from her staff on each of her kids (what they are doing and what they like cause she doesn't know them). But the holiday episode tried to portray them as a down to earth fun loving family who were close. Just not adding up to me. ARe they unloving, cold, stuffy, formal, antiquated....blah blah blah? Or are they fun loving, jovial, joking, caring tight knit down to earth? And were the Thatchers stuffy formal snotty bores? She was always cooking and ironing and doing normal things the queen would never even dare to do. 

They're superficially friendly and if one step is put wrong then turn into a collective iron wall of judgment. That's why they're such a frightening shark pit of a family. The Thatchers were portrayed as stodgy but straightforward to the point of brutality, even to their own children.

[Nire]

What year did this episode end?  I was thinking 1990 or 1991 but I felt like all the children looked fairly old and wouldn't Eugenie have been a baby or a toddler?

I liked the season overall.  I feel like they managed to cover a lot in a very short period of time.

[WatchrTina]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

(Charles gives everything Diana desires to Camilla, and Camilla is a smart cookie, she knows how needy and pathetically desperate for admiration Charles is, and lavishes it on him to keep him around.)

There's a saying that it is better to love than to be loved.  Preferable to be the pursuer rather than the pursued.  It seems clear that Charles' attraction to Camilla was stronger than her attraction to him.  In fact, it was clear she loved her husband.  And Charles -- who probably spent most of his 20's and 30's being pursued by every available aristocratic girl in the land -- probably found Camilla all the more desirable once he realized that not only was she not waiting around for him, she'd actually fallen in love with someone else and married him.  That must have made her all the more desirable to him.  She was the "one that got away."  But her husband turned out to be a philandering jerk so Charles was able to work his way back into her life.  Now, in addition to everything else, they had marital disappointment in common.  What a pair!

[swanpride]

Camilla was hardly the first nor the last who "got away". I guess the two simply liked each other. They had similar interests after all. And, well, as others not so delicately pointed out, Camilla isn't exactly a beauty. She was nice enough looking in younger years, but unlike most women she didn't age well. If you are trapped in a marriage with a man who constantly cheats on you, but there is another man who basically considers you his "Juliet"...and I guess for Charles, who apparently hated to get overshadowed by Diana, Camilla was desirable exactly because there was no danger at all that she would get that level of adoration.

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, greekmom said:

I never will understand why Charles never married Camilla when she was single. 

As others have told mostly why Camilla didn't marry Charles, I want to add his perspective: he thought to be too young, 25, to make such a important decision as his marriage should have to last. In an interview he even said that "in his position" he must make the decision about marriage based on reason. 

Remember also that lord Mountbatten fatefully advised him first enjoy himself and then settle down - that is, there are sexy girls to get fun with and there are innocent girls to marry with. 

[benteen]

I thought the finale was very good but I did have a number of frustrations. 

It was frustrating to realize that this is going to be the last time we see these actors in their roles.  Tobias Menzies literally made the most out of every scene he was in and is always entertaining but they gave him little to do this season.  He got more to do than Helena Bonham Carter, who literally gets just two shots and no dialogue in this episode.  Olivia got more to do this season and in this episode (loved her smackdown of Charles) but Elizabeth was pushed back this season along with Philip and Margaret over the continuing Charles and Diana drama.

Speaking of which, both Josh Connor and Emma Corrin were excellent this season (despite Connor's constant hunching) and they delivered a number of memorable scenes.  But after a while, I found the constant fighting and the Charles obsession with Camilla to be exhausting.  It could detract at times.

It felt like they could have included even more of the royals.  We hear Anne complaining about her husband but we only see him twice and he doesn't even have so much as a word of dialogue on the show.

So we see Thatcher having to step down from office...or we at least see some of this.  The show has gotten very sloppy with details and picking up things too late in the game.  Thatcher faces an issue from Sir Geoffrey Howe, which is long brewing.  Except we never see or hear about Sir Geoffrey at any point this season before this episode.  Why should this matter to the viewer?  Because it's time to remove Thatcher from office, information leading up to this be damned and ignored?  They never bothered developing anyone around Thatcher, save for her husband (their relationship was a highlight of this season and I liked the actor).

I find it surprising that Ronald Reagan was never so much as brought up, let alone shown this season.  Whatever one's political views, Reagan and Thatcher was towering figures in the 80s and their partnership was an important one.  Thatcher supported NATO putting missiles in Europe during the Cold War, a controversial move.  That would have been interesting to have seen this season but it's not shown and the Cold War is pretty much never discussed at all, despite the fact that it's at its endgame after hanging over Europe since the end of World War II.

Then there's Gillian Anderson as Thatcher.  One of my favorite parts of The Crown is the storylines with the Prime Ministers and this is the first season for me that the Prime Minister storyline disappointed.  Anderson was terrible as Thatcher, portraying the character as a geriatric old woman despite the fact that she took office in her mid-50s.  Her Thatcher wasn't even a performance, it was a paradoy.  Anderson will no doubt get a lot of undeserved critical raves and award nominations but this is NOT John Lithgow as Winston Churchill.  He was amazing on this show and I would say with absolute certainty that all of the previous actors portraying Prime Ministers on this show were better than Anderson and it isn't even close.

Edited November 18, 2020 by benteen

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, Nire said:

I feel like they managed to cover a lot in a very short period of time.

They do telescope things, don't they? I wish we had a bit more of an idea of what year we're in. I get that certain events are shown out of order for story purposes, but someone could have thrown in a line about how they're glad 19whatever is almost over. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

They do telescope things, don't they? I wish we had a bit more of an idea of what year we're in. I get that certain events are shown out of order for story purposes, but someone could have thrown in a line about how they're glad 19whatever is almost over. 

Well, google just told me that Thatcher left in Nov 1990, so probably pretty close to that time.  

[tennisgurl]

Charles has a whole lot of nerve, yelling at Diana about how she "made Camilla sad" or whatever. Yeah, how horrible of Diana, how dare she hug a sickly impoverished child, making his mistress sad. What a miserable selfish prick. 

You know what this season needed more of? Corgis. I want a whole episode that is just corgis, corgis, corgis. I want their hot takes on all of this drama. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

You know what this season needed more of? Corgis. I want a whole episode that is just corgis, corgis, corgis. I want their hot takes on all of this drama. 

Ooh yes I love it when all the dogs show up, including Anne’s labs and Margaret’s dachshund!

I liked how the visits to all those schools and then the children’s hospital slowly pulled her out of her misery. I think it hit her that even though her life sucked she still had the power to make a difference in the lives of the less fortunate. Emma did great in the scene in the hospital ward.

But about that New York gala, I’m pretty sure Diana wore the diamond and pearl tiara to go with that ivory/silver dress, why did they leave it out?

Edited November 18, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[tennisgurl]

I thought that this season was an improvement on season three, it felt a lot more focused with more of a season long arc, the writing was more interesting, and I think that the second gen actors have settled more into their roles. The season certainly had its issues and its better episodes and less great ones, and I think that it suffered more obviously than past seasons in its extremely break neck speed as we went through the late 70s to the early 90s, leapfrogging over a lot of really interesting stuff, but even that is pretty understandable considering they have to fit a whole decade in ten episodes. For the time they had, they did a pretty impressive job of getting a lot of the highlights and telling a consistent story. 

 I am really glad that they showed Diana's New York trip and especially her hugging the child with AIDS, that really was a big deal at the time when there was still such a stigma about AIDS and how people got it, it was hardly "making a spectacle" as Charles so dickishly put. Yeah, while Diana was making major steps to end the stigma of a deadly ailment so that people could be more effectively helped and showing empathy for a sick and lonely child, Charles was whining to his girlfriend about how much his wife sucks and how she is cheating on him, as he actively cheats on her. I cant imagine Charles would ever hug that kid, as Diana said, their family wont even hug each other. 

The talk between Philip and Diana was really good, he has always seemed to have more sympathy for her than the rest of the family, seeing her as a fellow outside who married a future king/queen and struggled with finding an identity outside of that. He also was finally the one to give her some straight talk (which is always Philip's favorite kind of talk) about the duties of being a part of the royal family. Its all about the Queen and what she wants from you and what works best for her, she is the sun and the whole Windsor universe revolves around her, and she wont be accepted by the family until she really learns that. It really is sad seeing Diana so alone among the Windsors when she was so welcomed by them when she first met them in the countryside. 

I cant say that I felt all that bad for Margaret Thatcher getting the boot, but I do think the show did a good job showing her as a complex person, and while I don't care for her politics or really her as a person, there was a lot about her that was truly admirable, and the show showed both sides of that. I thoughts the scenes between her and Elizabeth were always really good, and I especially thought Elizabeth saying how she admired her in how she dealt with the boys club "woman to woman" was a good call back to their first meeting where Thatcher was saying how she didn't like working with other women and that they had no business in politics. 

Charles has really been an absolute ass this season, blaming Diana for everything even if he is the one who has totally checked out of their marriage, and not only cheating on her but also making fun of her behind her back disdainfully and always being mad at her no matter no matter what she does or how hard she tries to be a good wife. Diana isn't a perfect saint, but I put their ruined marriage on Charles and him acting like Diana's simple presence is absolute torture for him. He doesn't even seem to care very much about her kids, and he is still always pissy at his family, its like he only has the capacity to care about Camilla anymore. 

It is kind of weird how they just glanced over so many major world events, even the Cold War which was kind of a big deal in the 80s, I get that they mostly want to focus on the royal family and their lives and how world events affect them in particular, as well as their place in a more modern society, and I can certainly see why they focused so much on Charles and Diana this season. Their relationship really was such a big deal, probably the most press the royal family hot gotten in years at that point especially internationally, and Diana has become such a legendary part of popular culture, they kind of had to focus on them. There were bigger things in the world, but they were the biggest things happening in the royal family. It is always kind of funny how much we end up in a Windsor bubble, and because time moves so fast on this show, you kind of forget when the show is actually set sometimes, especially as the Windsors are in their own rather old fashioned, prim and proper, stuffy kind of world, almost divorced from popular culture and trends. So much that it can be surprising when things leak in, like last season when Charles was at college and he walked by his neighbor listening to psychedelic 60s music and its like "oh yeah, its the 60s" or when Diana was dancing to Uptown Girl and its like "Oh yeah, its the 80s." 

I am already excited for the next season, I can imagine it is going to be another very interesting one. 

[Roseanna]

Can anyone explain to me what Charles meant when he said that Diana hurt Camilla? When and how she did so (in the show, not irl)?

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Can anyone explain to me what Charles meant when he said that Diana hurt Camilla? When and how she did so (in the show, not irl)?

I assume he was speaking about Camilla's hissy fit that she would always "lose" to Diana in the public, on looks, on importance, on compassion, that she was old and married and blah blah poor me.  Why did he get angry at Diana for that?  It felt to me like he was picturing himself a gallant knight killing the mean old dragon to protect his true love and her honor.  Delusional selfish people, both of them.

[Dejana]

45 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Can anyone explain to me what Charles meant when he said that Diana hurt Camilla? When and how she did so (in the show, not irl)?

Diana hugged the child with AIDS in front of the media and her New York tour in general led to enormously positive personal press (many of those "man on the street" interviews featured people saying Diana was different/better than the rest of the Royal Family). Camilla saw the reports and had the mini-freakout to Charles that she could never measure up to Diana's image in the eyes of the world. This led to Charles blaming Diana for "hurting Camilla", because he viewed his wife's public displays of compassion as a showy thing solely done to make herself look good and the Royals/Camilla seem like unfeeling monsters in comparison. Charles (at least the version on the show) was so wrapped up in his own self pity and jealousy of her popularity and Camilla, that he couldn't fathom Diana having sincere motives for anything that she did.  Diana and Charles also had very different personalities in general: he's presented as unable to wrap his head around the way she could connect to the public and sees it as unbecoming for a royal, besides.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Dejana

[MissLucas]

I'm not a great fan of the show's mix of fact and fiction but most of the time it works in producing a tight narrative. For example: We know that Philipp wrote to Diana that the whole family thought Charles was mad for not being in love with her and that he also warned her from breaking away in publi. Turning that into his little speech at the end was effective.

But the drama about Diana's actions hurting Camilla was not working for me. At that point the two were not yet compared before the jury of public opinion nor was Camilla competing for the public's love. From the little we know about her, throwing such a hissy fit seems out of character. Maybe later on (though I still find it unlikely) but not at this point. I also think it was not necessary, the point that Charles could not deal with Diana's growing success and the effortlessness with which she gained love and adoration had been made already.

[Lamima]

22 hours ago, rozen said:

They're superficially friendly and if one step is put wrong then turn into a collective iron wall of judgment. That's why they're such a frightening shark pit of a family. The Thatchers were portrayed as stodgy but straightforward to the point of brutality, even to their own children.

Yes. This clarifies it exactly. And I think I would prefer to marry into the Thatcher family rather than that Royal family. 100 times over.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Lamima

[Brn2bwild]

1 hour ago, Lamima said:

Yes. This clarifies it exactly. And I think I would prefer to marry into the Thatcher family rather than that Royal family. 100 times over.

Just as long as the one I marry isn't Mark...

[swanpride]

Frankly, I take the royal family, but as a non-working member. This way I am rich and can go to fancy events once in a while but I am free to do what I want otherwise.

 

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I assume he was speaking about Camilla's hissy fit that she would always "lose" to Diana in the public, on looks, on importance, on compassion, that she was old and married and blah blah poor me.  Why did he get angry at Diana for that?  It felt to me like he was picturing himself a gallant knight killing the mean old dragon to protect his true love and her honor.  Delusional selfish people, both of them.

 

11 hours ago, Dejana said:

Diana hugged the child with AIDS in front of the media and her New York tour in general led to enormously positive personal press (many of those "man on the street" interviews featured people saying Diana was different/better than the rest of the Royal Family). Camilla saw the reports and had the mini-freakout to Charles that she could never measure up to Diana's image in the eyes of the world. This led to Charles blaming Diana for "hurting Camilla", because he viewed his wife's public displays of compassion as a showy thing solely done to make herself look good and the Royals/Camilla seem like unfeeling monsters in comparison. Charles (at least the version on the show) was so wrapped up in his own self pity and jealousy of her popularity and Camilla, that he couldn't fathom Diana having sincere motives for anything that she did.  Diana and Charles also had very different personalities in general: he's presented as unable to wrap his head around the way she could connect to the public and sees it as unbecoming for a royal, besides.

Thank you for you both. But Diana had no idea what Camilla had said to Charles, so logically her answer should have been: "What are you talking about? I have not even talked to her!" 

Plus, they really should have invented at least some substance for Charles's accusation.  The whole plot was sheer nonsense. There is not ebven a hint that Charles contemplated divorce in the 80ies and if he had done it, he would have known that the marriage with Camilla was impossible. 

Spoiler

Camilla seems never have contemplated divorce, either. It Andrew Parker Bowles who took the initiative when Charles had admitted the adultery in TV - that is, if anyone hurt Camilla, it was Charles himself!

10 hours ago, MissLucas said:

But the drama about Diana's actions hurting Camilla was not working for me. At that point the two were not yet compared before the jury of public opinion nor was Camilla competing for the public's love. From the little we know about her, throwing such a hissy fit seems out of character. Maybe later on (though I still find it unlikely) but not at this point. I also think it was not necessary, the point that Charles could not deal with Diana's growing success and the effortlessness with which she gained love and adoration had been made already.

Camilla could not "compete for public's love" because ordinary people didn't even know that she even existed. And whether Diana was popular or not, she would be "the wronged wife" or, if Charles' scheme in the show succeeded, he would be an older cuckolded husband (which was a comic role in the plays) but even then his affair would be public known.