S01.E04: See No Evil

[grawlix]

1 hour ago, JaneDigby said:

5. Sylvia: could be the "sad sex" partner, which would explain why Jonathan went to her with his work legal problems, she kept the conversation on Elena (and her boobs) which could mean she was jealous of her affair with Jonathan. Bonus points for the meaningful looks the two exchanged during the arraignment. 

How about this:

Sylvia is Grace's half sister.  She is a result of one of Franklin's affairs.  He didn't want to acknowledge her so he secretly financed her college education and law school.  Sylvia found out who her father is and hates Grace because she didn't have the life that Grace had.  Sylvia had an affair with Johnathon because she saw that Grace had the most perfect life and wanted to take that away from her.  She finally had the opportunity to destroy Grace when Johnathon came to her about Elena.  At least, that's my 2 cents 🙂

[CarpeFelis]

When Jonathan said at the end that he thinks he knows who did it, I thought “OMG, he’s going to try to pin it on Grace”. Because he’s such a narcissist and she’s not falling for his attempts to get her back. I suppose it’s more likely he’ll implicate Elena’s husband, though - more believable. I really think Jonathan did it.

[CarpeFelis]

4 hours ago, ReviewX said:

Has anyone notice that Miguel has yet to utter a word? 

Yes, but I put that down to being traumatized from finding his mother’s body.

[athousandclowns]

It’s been discussed here that this Hugh at this age is not believable as a guy everyone will fall into bed with him.. I’m liking the Sylvia option.  Anyway there isn’t a place to discuss it but Hugh was on a Stephen Colbert last week and it was his first ever zoom interview.  He looked good and I realized I knew nothing about him in last few years. He’s very  private but has had very strange relationship with baby mommas. 
Nicole was on a couple days later and it was 7:30 in the morning for her and looked nice also.  She had signed on and was told   or producer said Hugh was going to be asked and she said she was surprised  he agreed  because he always says no that he doesn’t like to work.   Steven was teasing Hugh about the story line and I swear I thought Hugh was going to give it away because he wasn’t clear on how many had aired. Sorry if it’s way Off atopic 
I had to laugh when Jonathan explains he went to her studio to break it off with her and has sex with her then goes back again to break up with her..  Was he staying in a local hotel or had an apartment paid for with $500,000.. 
 

[formerlyfreedom]

13 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Noma Dumezweni (Haley, muck lawyer) is soooo compelling to watch. She's extremely engaging. She even caught my husband's eye and he was like "What an interesting lady. She really makes you pay attention."

She really does, doesn't she?

I do feel like to an extent, the idea that Nicole's acting is kind of blank actually is fitting for the character. Grace seems almost like an empty vessel of sorts, reacting to those around her. Now is it good that she's apparently had so much work done, it's not great for face movement? No, definitely not. But...the blankness fits for me.

[DiabLOL]

6 minutes ago, saoirse said:

She really does, doesn't she?

I do feel like to an extent, the idea that Nicole's acting is kind of blank actually is fitting for the character. Grace seems almost like an empty vessel of sorts, reacting to those around her. Now is it good that she's apparently had so much work done, it's not great for face movement? No, definitely not. But...the blankness fits for me.

I felt this way about Mickey Rourke in "The Wrestler". His weird new face made sense as the character he played.

[Andyourlittledog2]

I think the thing that disturbed me the most in this episode, in fact in this series so far, is the entitled was that Jonathan barged into Fernando's apartment and refused to leave, insisted on talking to the little boy, etc. in spite of Fernando's orders to get away from his son and to leave.  Every part of my being was offended by his arrogance.  HE needed to do this. He had no regard for the rights or feelings of others. It was he who needed to speak, it was he who needed to talk, it was he who needed to be heard.  And the way he dismissively waived away Fernando's objections with "He's my patient" as though he had any right at all to be in that home doing that.  Something inside of me wanted to kill him where he stood. It made no difference whether he killed Elena or not, he had no right to be in that home.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, grawlix said:

How about this:

Sylvia is Grace's half sister.  She is a result of one of Franklin's affairs.  He didn't want to acknowledge her so he secretly financed her college education and law school.  Sylvia found out who her father is and hates Grace because she didn't have the life that Grace had.  Sylvia had an affair with Johnathon because she saw that Grace had the most perfect life and wanted to take that away from her.  She finally had the opportunity to destroy Grace when Johnathon came to her about Elena.  At least, that's my 2 cents 🙂

So the premise of Savannah? Haha, I know I'm one of the only ten people who watched that show, but your explanation reminded me of it!

I agree that Sylvia is coming off as suspicious. She seemed too judgey and gossipy in the first episode to end up being the only friend who is still talking to Grace. I am undecided as to who really killed Elena but I could see Sylvia doing it. Maybe she had an affair with Jonathan and was jealous when she found out that he replaced her with Elena. Or maybe she's a total snob and was insulted that Jonathan's new mistress was not from their social strata. I could also see Jonathan manipulating Sylvia into believing that Elena was a threat so that she would kill Elena for him. He could have told her that Elena was threatening to tell Grace/other people about his affair with her (meaning Sylvia) which would have blown up her friendship with Grace, her standing with the other moms at school, etc. Or maybe he told Sylvia the same old "Elena is obsessed" story and convinced Sylvia that he and Grace wouldn't be safe while Elena was still alive.

24 minutes ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I think the thing that disturbed me the most in this episode, in fact in this series so far, is the entitled was that Jonathan barged into Fernando's apartment and refused to leave, insisted on talking to the little boy, etc. in spite of Fernando's orders to get away from his son and to leave.  Every part of my being was offended by his arrogance.  HE needed to do this. He had no regard for the rights or feelings of others. It was he who needed to speak, it was he who needed to talk, it was he who needed to be heard.  And the way he dismissively waived away Fernando's objections with "He's my patient" as though he had any right at all to be in that home doing that.  Something inside of me wanted to kill him where he stood. It made no difference whether he killed Elena or not, he had no right to be in that home.

In the first episode, we only saw the side of Jonathan that Grace saw - the kind father, the caring doctor. But in this episode we saw exactly what Haley accused Jonathan of (as well as what she said about Grace and rich people in general). He tried to charm Grace back when they went out for a walk. Her father was right about Jonathan too. He is what Grace wanted him to be, but he obviously has another side to him. Aside from being selfish enough to cheat on his wife with at least two other women (and I wouldn't be surprised if there were actually more), he is also an arrogant and entitled ass. From the way he insisted on coming into the apartment to dismissing Haley's assistant, his personality just screamed I Can Do What I Want. He knows how to manipulate people (although it doesn't always work, as we saw with Grace's father who saw right through his bull shit because it takes one to know one) but when that doesn't work, apparently he just does what he wants regardless of other people saying no.

Jonathan said that he had held the baby before so I wanted to hear more about that. I mean, he painted Elena to be his mentally unstable stalker yet he met her somewhere at least once after the baby was born.

I wish Grace had asked him about whether he'd used a condom. I know you can still get pregnant even with proper condom usage, but given how selfish and reckless he was during his affair with Elena, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he used no protection, which just makes the cheating even worse. It's another thing to put your spouse's health at risk by potentially exposing her to STDs because you aren't having safe sex with your side piece (and that's on top of the pregnancy risk, of course). Maybe Grace and Fernando can have a bonding experience by going to the free clinic to get an STD panel.

I don't think that Elena painting a picture of Grace was particularly incriminating. Sylvia or one of the other moms said in the first episode that they had seen Elena just sitting in front of the school while Miguel was in class. She could have seen Grace picking up/dropping off her kid and taken pictures of her (or just painted her from memory). I know the police were trying to provoke Grace when they told her about the painting, but it proves nothing.

Donald Sutherland's cocksucker speech made me miss Al Swearingen!

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Razzberry]

Jonathan's facial expressions remind me of a guilty person who's trying hard to be convincing, but overdoing it.  If that's the objective he deserves an Emmy, but it could also be Hugh Grant trying too hard.  

Despite the huge gaping hole of the fake trip, I'm leaning towards Fernando this week, at least until I learn what exactly is so ironclad about his alibi that the police scratched him off their list early on.   As the husband he certainly had the most motive.  Denying that he saw something "off" about his wife's behavior, and allowing her killer in for a baby bonding moment makes no sense otherwise.

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

When Jonathan said at the end that he thinks he knows who did it, I thought “OMG, he’s going to try to pin it on Grace”. Because he’s such a narcissist and she’s not falling for his attempts to get her back. 

I thought this too.  I wonder how Daddy would feel if the attorney he paid for tries to get her client off by pointing to his daughter.

6 hours ago, athousandclowns said:

It’s been discussed here that this Hugh at this age is not believable as a guy everyone will fall into bed with him..

We've only seen snippets of him at work but he seemed charming and caring and the fact that he saved the lives of children would be very, very attractive to emotionally vulnerable women.  And the British accent.  LOL

5 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I think the thing that disturbed me the most in this episode, in fact in this series so far, is the entitled was that Jonathan barged into Fernando's apartment and refused to leave

Right?  How could anyone think this would be a good idea.  Haley was right that he thinks his charm can get him out of any scrapes.

These people are all horrible.  There's no one to root for.  Maybe Fernando if he is being honest.

[Cosmocrush]

23 hours ago, khyber said:

It's great to see an actor age normally. He looks "grotty" because he looks like a guy his age and we never see that on screen. 

Which is why I could totally feel his emotions when he told Grace "It's me... it's me" on the boardwalk.  Nicole is/was a great actor but I wonder if her response to that was supposed to be stone cold or she can no longer move her face.  

Edited November 17, 2020 by Cosmocrush

[Cheyanne11]

On 11/15/2020 at 7:24 PM, LilaFowler said:

The Show pointedly didn't tell us who Jonathan cheated with in his moment of devastation. It has to be Lily Rabe, right?

It's got to be.  I'm also wondering if she's the murderer.  She was the one 'stalking' Jonathan and his "someone saw me leave Elena and flew into a rage" was actually her.

Meanwhile, I'm here for Nicole Kidman walking around NYC at all hours in fabulous coats.

[Kiss my mutt]

The green coat she fainted in was my favorite so far!

[Maysie]

15 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I think the thing that disturbed me the most in this episode, in fact in this series so far, is the entitled was that Jonathan barged into Fernando's apartment and refused to leave, insisted on talking to the little boy, etc. in spite of Fernando's orders to get away from his son and to leave.  Every part of my being was offended by his arrogance.  HE needed to do this. He had no regard for the rights or feelings of others. It was he who needed to speak, it was he who needed to talk, it was he who needed to be heard.  And the way he dismissively waived away Fernando's objections with "He's my patient" as though he had any right at all to be in that home doing that.  Something inside of me wanted to kill him where he stood. It made no difference whether he killed Elena or not, he had no right to be in that home.

Yeah, that was really something else. I've leveled a lot of criticism at this show and the writing, but I think one of the things that has been done well is gradually unfolding the character of Jonathan. He seemed likeable enough in the first episode - as someone said, we saw him through the eyes of his wife and family. But as the series progresses, we see him for the entitled prick he is. Yes, he is probably a great doctor, and I don't doubt that he at least loves his son, but now we get to see his overblown sense of self. I still don't see him as a murderer, however. He's not off my suspect list, but he's not at the top of it at this point.

 

9 hours ago, Haleth said:

These people are all horrible.  There's no one to root for.  Maybe Fernando if he is being honest.

That's pretty much how I feel. I can't say I dislike Fernando, or that he's horrible because aside from that interaction with Jonathan, we only see Fernando through Grace's point of view. I'm not convinced he's been stalking her - I don't believe he was following her in Central Park in the middle of the night when she was wandering around. He has two kids at home, ffs, and I don't get the vibe that he has the luxury to loiter around her dad's building, waiting for Grace to take a walk. Fernando is a working man and now a single father; he doesn't have nannies and such to pick up the slack at home.

When the cops showed Grace the picture of her portrait, I though "so what?" People don't have to sit for portraits anymore. As someone mentioned earlier, we learned early on that Elena hung out in front of the school, so she would have had plenty of opportunity to take Grace's picture. As well, I'm sure it was easy enough to Google and find information and pictures of her on that thing we call the internets. A portrait of Grace means nothing other than Elena painted her picture. Hell, for all we know Jonathan could have commissioned it before he started sleeping with Elena (I don't believe that). There are so many possibilities that the whole scene, including Grace's reaction, was just stupid.

I am absolutely on board with Sylvia being Jonathan's other fling. I would be surprised if it was only a one off, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Sylvia was more into him than he was her. Does Sylvia have a husband? I can't remember if there's been any reference to a spouse in any of the conversations...

[hoodooznoodooz]

24 minutes ago, Maysie said:

Does Sylvia have a husband? I can't remember if there's been any reference to a spouse in any of the conversations...

I think in one of those short clips on HBO on demand, they tell us that Sylvia is a single mother.

[Milburn Stone]

On 11/16/2020 at 1:33 PM, MBayGal said:

I thought this too, and expected him to clarify that he meant he had lost his wife because of his affair.  I was shocked that he meant Elena.

But do we know that? I thought it was deliberately ambiguous.

[Andyourlittledog2]

The more I think about that scene at Fernando's apartment the more I think that it was more than Jonathan being an entitled jerk.  The whole thing reeks of Jonathan moving on Fernando as the Alpha male in front of his kid.  Jonathan slept with F's wife, he inserted his own child into F's family. Now he walks into F's own home over F's objections, makes a show of being the doctor who saved the life of F's own sick offspring (in contrast to Jonathan's healthy children - he is the better man at producing strong children) and waves F away again when he objects to this action. In the end F kind of fizzles and submits to Jonathan being there and even hands the baby to Jonathan who gives the baby nourishment. All in front of a quietly simmering Miguel who watches it all, the whole Alpha making the lesser man roll over for him. That Jonathan is inserting himself here and altering the father-son dynamic is intentional IMO. It's such a crude primal 'I am in all things the superior man' situation being played out by Jonathan.

Then in the TV interview we watch as Jonathan plays the hesitant victim of the real killer, the one being framed for a murder he didn't commit. The false anguish (no real emotion behind his words and expressions), and then the sly attempt to throw shade somewhere else as he looks into the camera meaningfully, all false anguish set aside.

I think Jonathan is a stone cold sociopath.

[filmfan2480]

I have felt for two episodes now that Franklin was the killer.  He hates Jonathan.  He might have known about the affair.  He has some self-loathing.  etc.

But my co-worker is now thinking that Miguel is the killer.  Why?  Because he's the first person we see in the first episode.  He's been acting oddly (yes, I now his mother just died).  And we haven't seen much of him in the story as of yet.  That just seems ... odd.

I think Nicole Kidman is a fabulous actress.  She's good, here.  But I expect greatness and, instead, I'm seeing her just looking great (hair, outfits) and walking around a lot.   I also think a lot of the talk around her face being frozen is tired.  She had Botox way back in the day and lip injections.  But I see plenty of wrinkles now, and her lips look thin like they did circa 2000-2001.  I think she's been looking great and more natural for quite some time now.

[Aqua]

1 hour ago, Maysie said:

I am absolutely on board with Sylvia being Jonathan's other fling. I would be surprised if it was only a one off, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Sylvia was more into him than he was her. Does Sylvia have a husband? I can't remember if there's been any reference to a spouse in any of the conversations...

If Sylvia was the other fling, though, would she have met with Grace and unloaded that whole story about how she represented him on the case at the hospital? Seems to me she'd stay away from talking about him at all lest she telegraph subconsciously that they had a past.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

11 hours ago, Haleth said:

We've only seen snippets of him at work but he seemed charming and caring and the fact that he saved the lives of children would be very, very attractive to emotionally vulnerable women.  And the British accent.

Don't forget about the full head of floppy hair!

[JaneDigby]

My main suspect is still Jonathan: purposely leaving the phone so he couldn't be traced, the phantom conference and meeting up with an already upset Elena that night are just the highlights. The hospital lawsuit needs to be explored - since when do hospitals care about who's sleeping with whom? It had to be the final straw. Also, I'm calling 100% on the "dog that died" story. I don't care if the alleged dog was a particularly winsome whippet, something else went on to drive such a wedge between Jonathan and his family.

And despite my theory that Sylvia is the sad-sex partner, I hope she's not more involved. I like Sylvia.

Oh, and plus 100 on Grace's awesome coats. The red one, the green one, and the murder-night cloak: all outstanding. 

[Bulldog]

I, too, think Sylvia has to be Jonathan's other affair (although I seriously doubt it is limited to two).  See Roger Ebert's Law of Economy of Characters.   I wonder if Sylvia's daughter is actually Jonathan's? 

Why would Grace and Sylvia allow their children to watch Jonathan's interview when they knew the subject matter that would be discussed.  I guess I might could understand Henry, but why Sylvia's daughter? 

Does Jonathan have any legal claim to Elena's daughter?  I know he offered to take her.  Wonder if Fernando could sue Jonathan for child support?

Money's still on Sutherland being the killer. 

[Aqua]

2 hours ago, JaneDigby said:

Also, I'm calling 100% on the "dog that died" story. I don't care if the alleged dog was a particularly winsome whippet, something else went on to drive such a wedge between Jonathan and his family.

 

Is the dog story the reason he doesn't speak to them? I know he said he hasn't talked to them since college, but Grace's story that the parents blamed him for the dog being killed was when he was a child. In any event, I would think a more likely result of that story is he has a dog that he enthusiastically cherishes.

[Foose]

Could there be a Hitchcockian plot between Jonathan and Sylvia to frame Nicole for the murder of Elena? Presumably there'd be a money motive - but they'd have to get rid of Franklin too. Henry would inherit and as his guardian (with Nicole incarcerated), Jonathan would have control of the funds. Sylvia could be strung along for a while but I'm sure Jonathan would dump her too.

This is Donald Sutherland's second turn at playing Nicole Kidman's father - he was the saintly Reverend Monroe, a quite different critter from Franklin, in Cold Mountain some years ago with Nicole as his sweet daughter Ada. Maybe Nicole exerted some pull to get him cast again in The Undoing.

[Melina22]

On 11/17/2020 at 1:02 AM, saoirse said:

Now is it good that she's apparently had so much work done, it's not great for face movement? No, definitely not. But...the blankness fits for me.

I just saw Nicole on Graham Norton. She looked pretty and was cheerful and relaxed, laughed quite a bit. I found myself studying her, after our conversations about her as Grace. And yes, her face looked mostly blank, and hardly moved whether she was laughing or talking, just like on the show. 

This cleared up for me the question, "Is it the plastic surgery, or was Nicole directed to play Grace as blank for dramatic purposes?" And the answer is, it's the plastic surgery. And I've promised myself that that's the last thing I'll say about that topic. 

[VagueDisclaimer]

9 hours ago, ReviewX said:

If Sylvia was the other fling, though, would she have met with Grace and unloaded that whole story about how she represented him on the case at the hospital? Seems to me she'd stay away from talking about him at all lest she telegraph subconsciously that they had a past.

I think the affair with Jonathan both made Sylvia feel very guilty in her friendship with Grace AND made her very aware of Jonathan’s duplicitous nature. I think she knows he’s more than just a cheater, that she saw enough to make her wary of Jonathan and protective of Grace. I think Jonathan will wield that little nugget of information at just the right time against both Grace and Sylvia. 

Dude is a flat out sociopath, imo. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by VagueDisclaimer

[qtpye]

On 11/15/2020 at 11:11 PM, Ashforth said:

It has to be Sylvia (played by Lily Rabe), yes. 

RE: Grace in the hospital, please Show, just try. She would have had an IV for fluids, even if she was in the ER and not admitted. Or they would have examined her in the ER and sent her home.

I thought it was odd that Fernando let Jonathan into the apartment, but very real and touching when he admitted that he has tried but doesn't love baby Teresa. It actually made sense to me that he asked Jonathan if he wanted to feed her. I thought it was to evaluate whether he might trust Jonathan with her. I kind of wanted him to agree to allow Jonathan to take her, if even as a test period.

I'm going to have to watch this episode again. I missed a bit of it and aside from that, there was a lot to unpack.

I'm now leaning toward Sylvia as the killer. Henry is suspicious as well.

All he would have to do is follow his father, his mother, or his grandfather. 

 

On 11/16/2020 at 12:25 AM, ECM1231 said:

What would be her motive? Jealousy?  If she was the woman Jonathan had had an affair with, it was some time ago.

 

On 11/16/2020 at 9:55 AM, Melina22 said:

I think this is the reason we're all fixated on her plastic surgery. It looks unnatural and she can't express emotion properly so we're taken out of the show, which is upsetting when it's otherwise a really good show. It affects our ability to suspend disbelief. 

The thing is, I think a lot of bad plastic surgery we see on actors is like a tattoo - something a person does because it seems like a really good idea at the time, but later when they decide it was a mistake, they can never fully reverse it. Nicole has said she uses way less Botox etc than before, which is good, but some of the work she had done can never be undone.

You can't fault actors for wanting to look better in their closeups...I'm sure it's murder having your face under a microscope for the whole world to see and criticize. They're in a no-win situation. 

 

On 11/16/2020 at 12:45 PM, RedDelicious said:

I don't really have a problem with Nicole's face - I think she's in a constant state of shock.  But there is one thing that bothers me and it's the area of her lips where the shape diminishes into about a half inch of straight line on either side of her mouth.  THAT bugs me.

I think the purpose of the scene between Haley and Jonathan in her office where she gets up close to him is to see if she can make him uncomfortable by invading his personal space.  My own interpretation of it is if he was innocent, he would react.  Guilty, and he would stand his ground, like he has something to hide and he's not going to let her get the better of him. 

How beautiful was that pre-dawn light in the early morning walking scenes?

 

On 11/16/2020 at 10:15 PM, grawlix said:

How about this:

Sylvia is Grace's half sister.  She is a result of one of Franklin's affairs.  He didn't want to acknowledge her so he secretly financed her college education and law school.  Sylvia found out who her father is and hates Grace because she didn't have the life that Grace had.  Sylvia had an affair with Johnathon because she saw that Grace had the most perfect life and wanted to take that away from her.  She finally had the opportunity to destroy Grace when Johnathon came to her about Elena.  At least, that's my 2 cents 🙂

My theory is that Sylvia was actually having an affair with Elena, who I think might have been bi-sexual.  She went to go visit Elena that evening and saw her having sex with Jonathan. Later, she visits Elena again at the studio and they have an argument and Sylvia flies into a rage and bludgeons Elena.

The plastic surgery is not to be bad for me because I can see the character having it. I do have concerns with the strange scars on the side of her mouth. It looks quite a bit like incisions that have scarred and I do not know why anyone would pay to have permanent joker face.

Edited November 18, 2020 by qtpye

[tennisgurl]

I still don't think Jonathan is the killer, but I do think he is hiding even more stuff. There are so many bits in his story that seem to be deliberately hidden, like the identity of the women he sad cheated on, why he wont let them have a dog, why he doesn't talk to his family, where he disappeared to while he was missing, I feel like we might find out that while Jonathan didn't kill Elena, he did a bunch of other terrible stuff anyway. 

The dog thing especially seems to be hinting at something, even though I cant say what. I would say that he killed his dog as a kid and that's why he never talks to his family, but if this was his inner murderer coming out, why does he insist on not having one as an adult? He is trying to suppress his murder urges? 

The scene where the principle asks for them to pull the son out of school because his father is a murder suspect reminded me of a similar scene in The Outsider where the two daughters of a supposed murderer were told to leave their elementary school, to the fury of their mother. The teachers even said pretty much the same thing. "We know your kid didn't actually do anything wrong and isn't being punished, but their continued existence is upsetting the other kids because their dad is probably a murderer, so we basically are punishing them by kicking them out. You understand right?"  

[Ashforth]

I thought the dog story was total fiction, something Grace made up on the spot as an excuse for Jonathan's refusal to get a dog. It was very strange.

 

[Lone Wolf]

On 11/15/2020 at 8:54 PM, TomGirl said:

I agree, and I think he’s the best actor on the show.  But those eyebrows!  In every scene, I’m just itching to grab a scissors and give him a trim.

Likewise.  Reminds me of Larry Hagman in the Dallas reboot:

I figure they're supposed to be symbolic of devil horns.  Maybe a foreshadowing of Sutherland's character's true self...

[LilaFowler]

3 hours ago, Ashforth said:

I thought the dog story was total fiction, something Grace made up on the spot as an excuse for Jonathan's refusal to get a dog. It was very strange.

 

I think the whole dog thing was yet another lie in Jonathan's life. There probably was no dog, ever at any point. Perhaps Grace wanted one at some point and instead of just saying no, he concocted this traumatic story so she would never broach the issue again. Jonathan looked his kid in the eye and lied about an allergy. He pretended to go to work every day for months. He was having an affair and had a kid out of wedlock. He is a crazy, pathological liar, nothing more. When he told the lawyer that his family had neither the funds nor the inclination to help him with bail, I called BS on that, too. They are probably rich and wondering where the hell he is. I don't think he's ever told the truth and Grace barely knows who he really is.

[Maysie]

20 hours ago, ReviewX said:

If Sylvia was the other fling, though, would she have met with Grace and unloaded that whole story about how she represented him on the case at the hospital? Seems to me she'd stay away from talking about him at all lest she telegraph subconsciously that they had a past.

If Sylvia was the other fling, whether it was a one time event or something that was ongoing, she's as guilty of betraying Grace as Jonathan is (and I'm not saying that sleeping with your friend's husband is as bad as your spouse cheating; I mean that as far as we know, it was something she chose to do). And if she's willing to sleep with her friend's husband and able to carry on their friendship as normal, I think she'd be okay talking about him (and even revealing their secret lawyer-client relationship, which should have been confidential). It would have been interesting to see if the long looks Jonathan and Sylvia exchanged in court would have happened if Grace had been present.

16 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Why would Grace and Sylvia allow their children to watch Jonathan's interview when they knew the subject matter that would be discussed.  I guess I might could understand Henry, but why Sylvia's daughter? 

I believe it's important to be honest with your kids and I think it's wise to be cautious of over-protecting them from life's hard lessons, however, I'm kind of blown away that there seems to be absolutely no effort to come up with a strategy to navigate this awful situation with minimal damage to Henry. It's almost like he's an afterthought. Again, Grace is supposed to be some great therapist, but there's no indication that she's even thought about how this is going to impact him. When the school wanted to remove Henry from classes for the duration of the trial it was not lost to me that Franklin fought against it from the perspective of his own ego; he'd given the school so much money that he felt it was his right to make demands on the school. I don't recall much of an argument about maintaining consistency and normalcy for Henry. It seems like no one really gives a shit about that.

15 hours ago, Foose said:

This is Donald Sutherland's second turn at playing Nicole Kidman's father - he was the saintly Reverend Monroe, a quite different critter from Franklin, in Cold Mountain some years ago with Nicole as his sweet daughter Ada. Maybe Nicole exerted some pull to get him cast again in The Undoing.

IMO, I figure Donald Sutherland doesn't need anyone to use pull to get him cast. I imagine there aren't that many roles for men of his age, however, there doesn't seem to be too much competition at this point, either.

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The dog thing especially seems to be hinting at something, even though I cant say what. I would say that he killed his dog as a kid and that's why he never talks to his family, but if this was his inner murderer coming out, why does he insist on not having one as an adult? He is trying to suppress his murder urges? 

 

3 hours ago, Ashforth said:

I thought the dog story was total fiction, something Grace made up on the spot as an excuse for Jonathan's refusal to get a dog. It was very strange.

My feeling with the dog story, whether fiction or not, is that it showed us early on that Grace is adept at covering for Jonathan so he can maintain his "good guy" status. There are only two episodes left and I figure with all of the time we'll burn on watching the press chase Grace and Jonathan, the detectives popping up randomly to present more "evidence" and Grace walking around Manhattan in fabulous coats we won't get into the depth and breadth of Jonathan's lies. I think they've done a good job of evolving that character from all around great guy to a narcissistic, entitled asshole, so I'm okay if we're left with speculation about the dog story, etc. They have a lot of ground to cover in two episodes, so I don't care if we get an answer about the dog.

When I was watching the last episode, I realized that Nicole Kidman's mouth reminded me of the witches' mouths in HBO's movie The Witches.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Maysie

[Ashforth]

6 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

When he told the lawyer that his family had neither the funds nor the inclination to help him with bail, I called BS on that, too. They are probably rich and wondering where the hell he is. 

It's another big plot hole. Hey Show, allow me to introduce you to the World Wide Web! Unless Jonathan's family of origin are all dead or live in such remote areas that they have no access to news or the internet (and I mean ALL of them, including extended family members), someone is going to pop up to try to make a buck or gain notoriety by association ("The Truth About My Brother," etc.). Consider Meghan Markle's sister and father. If they're rich, then people in their social circles or their employees would do the same. There is no escape.

6 hours ago, Maysie said:

I believe it's important to be honest with your kids and I think it's wise to be cautious of over-protecting them from life's hard lessons, however, I'm kind of blown away that there seems to be absolutely no effort to come up with a strategy to navigate this awful situation with minimal damage to Henry. It's almost like he's an afterthought. Again, Grace is supposed to be some great therapist, but there's no indication that she's even thought about how this is going to impact him. When the school wanted to remove Henry from classes for the duration of the trial it was not lost to me that Franklin fought against it from the perspective of his own ego; he'd given the school so much money that he felt it was his right to make demands on the school. I don't recall much of an argument about maintaining consistency and normalcy for Henry. It seems like no one really gives a shit about that.

You nailed this. Nailed it. And nailed it again.

[Rabithed]

On 11/16/2020 at 9:49 PM, CarpeFelis said:

When Jonathan said at the end that he thinks he knows who did it, I thought “OMG, he’s going to try to pin it on Grace”. Because he’s such a narcissist and she’s not falling for his attempts to get her back. I suppose it’s more likely he’ll implicate Elena’s husband, though - more believable. I really think Jonathan did it.

This is exactly what I thought too. He stated that the killer was jealous of Elena and I figured he was referring to Grace. This also explained his “pained” expression at having to admit it. Maybe Grace went to see Elena  to check up on her and caught Jonathan there. 
Hmm, as I type this I’m already doubting it. I’m so confused! Lol

On 11/17/2020 at 9:21 PM, Foose said:

Could there be a Hitchcockian plot between Jonathan and Sylvia to frame Nicole for the murder of Elena? Presumably there'd be a money motive - but they'd have to get rid of Franklin too. Henry would inherit and as his guardian (with Nicole incarcerated), Jonathan would have control of the funds. Sylvia could be strung along for a while but I'm sure Jonathan would dump her too.

This is Donald Sutherland's second turn at playing Nicole Kidman's father - he was the saintly Reverend Monroe, a quite different critter from Franklin, in Cold Mountain some years ago with Nicole as his sweet daughter Ada. Maybe Nicole exerted some pull to get him cast again in The Undoing.

I thought it odd that Sylvia was so quick to run by Grace’s side and offer her advice because the cops suspected her. I thought she’d be the first to disassociate as she seemed so snobby. Later, we learn she is close to Franklin.

 Maybe she was offering bad advice which is why the cops keep questioning and suspecting Grace. Why did she take such an interest? And, that odd knowing look between her and Jonathan at his bail hearing. Maybe Sylvia’s daughter is Jonathan’s? She also said in the first episode that she is usually the first to hear about all that happens in their social circle. 

[Maisiesmom]

I just got caught up on this show-(was bingeing on the Crown). Holy shit Daddy is a scary man! (And I don't mean just his eyebrows lol) I'm starting to think he's the killer-maybe he found out about the affair and baby and wanted it to all go away so his daughter wouldn't be hurt. Or maybe he's trying to get rid of hubby since he doesn't like him anyway.  When he was talking to the school principle I was impressed by how cool but savage he was. Also, I wish I had the $$$ and the figure to wear NKs wardrobe, especially those beautiful coats!

[MBayGal]

On 11/17/2020 at 7:19 PM, ReviewX said:

s the dog story the reason he doesn't speak to them? I know he said he hasn't talked to them since college, but Grace's story that the parents blamed him for the dog being killed was when he was a child. In any event, I would think a more likely result of that story is he has a dog that he enthusiastically cherishes.

IIRC, Henry wanted a dog but J insisted he was allergic to dogs. When Henry told Grace he didn’t believe J was allergic, Grace told the dog story and said that was why they couldn't have a dog, because J was so hurt over losing that dog.

[Aqua]

14 hours ago, MBayGal said:

IIRC, Henry wanted a dog but J insisted he was allergic to dogs. When Henry told Grace he didn’t believe J was allergic, Grace told the dog story and said that was why they couldn't have a dog, because J was so hurt over losing that dog.

Yes I remember that, but I was wondering if I missed something about a link between the parents blaming him for the dog's death and his being estranged from them.

[chlban]

On 11/16/2020 at 7:49 PM, CarpeFelis said:

When Jonathan said at the end that he thinks he knows who did it, I thought “OMG, he’s going to try to pin it on Grace”. Because he’s such a narcissist and she’s not falling for his attempts to get her back. I suppose it’s more likely he’ll implicate Elena’s husband, though - more believable. I really think Jonathan did it.

Yes, I thought he was going to say Grace as well.

[nara]

On 11/16/2020 at 1:14 PM, Mackey said:

When did scum-cakes tell his wife about Cleveland? It was at the auction or on the way in the car? Or, do we even know when the plan was first mentioned? Could it have been weeks ago? 
 

I’m struggling with the idea that he sets up a fake trip story to his wife, then goes planfully and brutally kills someone, and then what? If he was the murderer how would a fake trip help his case? He’d have to know people would find out there was no conference. A fake trip/fake conference is no alibi. It only works (if he’s the murderer) if the fake trip plan was not related to anything to do with Elena. But, he kills her in a spontaneous rage and then runs in panic, forgetting his fake trip . 
 

Leaving phone? Also, unrelated? But, very confusing.  Most people, of his ilk,  would be checking texts as they walk out the door. How did he not turn around in minutes, noticing it missing? 

I’m obsessed with the fake conference, fake trip part. I’m mostly obsessed that nothing is being said about it with Grace and the cops, like “Ah, after the murder, your murdering husband did not go on his fake trip to a fake conference but instead claims he did a fake panic run when he saw Elena dead. We think it’s all fake fake fake and don’t care about the fake cleveland trip story. We just care about the faked panic run.”

I think Kidman is amazing! I’m not faking. I really do love how she’s acting in this role. 

I was under the impression that it was a conference he attended every year, so he had to pretend to go because he didn’t tell Grace her was fired. The left behind phone was to avoid being tracked...

[lucindabelle]

OK the only thing that makes sense right now is if Jonathan and Sylvia planned it together.

 

OK the only thing that makes sense right now is if Jonathan and Sylvia planned it together.

 

He absolutely looked like he was going to put it on Grace.
 

by the way that portrait was AWFUL. Just a photograph colored in. Not artistic in the least and painting from photographs is so common people get their PETS done so whoever wrote that as incriminating? Idiotic.