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The Vow

Door County Cherry

By Door County Cherry
in HBO Documentaries

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nilyank
nilyank

I just want to punch Keith in the face repeatedly every single time he spoke his bullshit. And you could see all his misogyny and his hangups about women and himself. He actually believed all the crap

Pop Tart
Pop Tart

I think it's also in the structures of how these things work. They give you a couple really feel good, confidence-boosting wins in the beginning and see how you respond to that. If you don't come back

kitmerlot1213
kitmerlot1213

I did love Mark's turning around and using Raniere's cult double speak against him:  "Keith, I think you're still blocking what I'm saying."  That was gorgeous.   I know it enrages me when cults

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Fleegull

Fleegull

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

This also begs the question how did Sarah escape his attention?  By all accounts she was very high up in the infrastructure and there seems to be some indication that women in his high inner circle were sexually involved with him.  Unless she was somehow off limits because she was such a high volume recruiter? 

She said in a podcast that she surmised that Keith viewed her as more valuable as a recruiter but today in her victim impact statement she said that Keith "tried to steal her away from her husband". You can read it here. Scroll down to 1:00 PM.

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DanaK

DanaK

22 minutes ago, CherryMalotte said:

Just read it online - Keith got 120 years in prison. 

Really good result. I hope his victims feel somewhat better and can go on with their lives. Anything on whether and when he’ll be eligible for parole?

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MicheleinPhilly

MicheleinPhilly

Just now, DanaK said:

Really good result. I hope his victims feel somewhat better and can go on with their lives. Anything on whether and when he’ll be eligible for parole?

According to Frank Parlato:

"Keith Raniere has been sentenced to 120-year in federal prison.

The sentence is not actually as bad as it sounds because, with time off for good behavior, he’ll only have to serve 102 years.

There were also a lot of special probationary conditions – but those will only kick-in after he finishes serving his prison sentence."

Sorry, not sorry, but I LOLed. 

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DearEvette

DearEvette

1 minute ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

The sentence is not actually as bad as it sounds because, with time off for good behavior, he’ll only have to serve 102 years.

😂😂😂

Ok.  That is kinda awesome.

Also I had no clue that in a way that only Twitter can do, he has been hilariously dragged for his headbands and volleyball playing.   So seeing that picture of him in a volleyball headband just made me LOL harder.

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LeGrandElephant

LeGrandElephant

1 hour ago, Fleegull said:

She said in a podcast that she surmised that Keith viewed her as more valuable as a recruiter but today in her victim impact statement she said that Keith "tried to steal her away from her husband". You can read it here. Scroll down to 1:00 PM.

Interesting. It also says she's had her brand removed with plastic surgery - can they really do that without leaving a scar? I hope so - I would just feel sick having to see that for the rest of my life. 

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DanaK

DanaK

Keith will probably appeal, though who knows what kind of chance he has. He called the judge corrupt and didn’t really show remorse so he probably won’t find a sympathetic audience in the courts

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ElectricBoogaloo

ElectricBoogaloo

12 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

One final takeaway - the biggest evidence (to me) at how much Keith is a fraud was laid out on his whiteboard, where he misspelled the simple words 'stolen' (as "stollen") and 'visible' (as "visable"). Genius my ass.

Hey, maybe the Vanguard was talking about German Christmas bread!

On 10/22/2020 at 9:17 PM, DearEvette said:

You know... I agree with this.  And also, Even though Sarah and Mark (maybe not so much Bonnie and Nippy) are glad to be out, there were times when they said something or looked a certain way you get a sorta glimpse of ...something... where you can tell they miss it on some level. And honestly,  I saw this in India as well. 

I'm not defending them AT ALL, but logically I understand why they miss being the successful top dogs who were raking in the dough hand over fist, admired by all the underlings, etc. They used to be the big fish in a small pond. Now they're nothing. It's like the high school quarterback missing the days when he was the most popular kid in school. They miss that feeling of being important and being at the top of the food chain. I mean, sure it was for a pyramid scheme and sex cult, but they felt seen!

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LeGrandElephant

LeGrandElephant

22 hours ago, sadie said:

Two years ya’ll! TWO YEARS a woman kept another woman in a closet locked up. Two years of waking up every morning, having coffee, trips to Target, watching Netflix, going to the gym, whatever this psycho Lauren did every day for two years while another woman was locked up denied her freedom! It’s so heinous I’m not sure I can fully comprehend it. It truly speaks to how dangerous these people were/are. I hope they all rot in jail for as long as the law allows. From The Color Purple: “ jail you planned for me gonna be the one you rot in” ! 
 

I still can’t believe these documentary makers showed Sarah being all upset that her “best friend” Lauren talked her into getting giving over collateral and branded, but didn’t even mention that Lauren kept a young woman* imprisoned in a small bare empty room for two years, or show Sarah reacting to her “best friend” doing THAT! I sort of assumed that because this documentary was on HBO it would be good quality and trustworthy, but I guess that was naive of me. 

 

*(technically adult but just barely, and vulnerable due to being undocumented)

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alessadominguez/keith-raniere-nxivm-the-vow-seduced

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MicheleinPhilly

MicheleinPhilly

Post sentencing interview with India:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/10/keith-raniere-nxivm-india-oxenberg-court

From the article: 🤬

But on Monday, the night before the 29-year-old would face her 60-year-old abuser—the NXIVM leader who subjected her and other women to depraved acts of physical, emotional, and sexual trauma under the guise of self-help—Oxenberg received two surprising voicemails.

The messages were from a former good friend and NXIVM member who was still loyal to Raniere. The friend said she was calling from outside the hotel where she believed Oxenberg was staying. In the voicemails, the friend emotionally pleaded for Oxenberg to meet her and talk.

“That really threw me,” Oxenberg told Vanity Fair Wednesday morning. “She said, ‘I just really miss you. We had something special…I would really like to talk to you.’” She made an even more desperate grab for Oxenberg’s heartstrings, the actor said, alleging that her mother was unwell and she needed a friend. “It was intimate,” said Oxenberg, who did not respond to the messages. The next morning, Oxenberg saw that she had missed another call from the NXIVM member.

While walking into the Brooklyn courtroom for Raniere’s long-awaited sentencing on Tuesday, Oxenberg felt a tap on her arm. It was the former friend again. Fortunately, a courtroom guard intervened—safely ushering Oxenberg inside the courtroom.

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taragel

taragel

Having trouble with the quote function but responding to several different points raised here....

Did Sarah know her "best friend" was keeping a young woman prisoner? I don't think she did actually. Sarah's ebook was onsale for $2.99 the other day, so I bought it and read it (it's a short, quick, not that illuminating read) and .... despite her calling Lauren a best friend and making her the godparent to her son, I think they actually had a very one-way relationship. Sarah didn't seem to really know much of anything about Lauren's life--she had no idea for their entire time until she wanted out that Lauren was with Keith, and I think they didn't live near each other for very long. (Sarah and Nippy moved to Albany near the end of things I think.) Reading between the lines, there wasn't much evidence that Lauren really treated her like a best friend....especially since she supposedly got very demanding/harsh/condescending after Sarah agreed to be her "slave."

Why is he named Nippy? Nickname comes from his middle name, his mother's maiden name, Nippert.

I'm guessing the woman who approached India in the courtroom was Nicki Clyne, because they were thick as thieves after Keith got arrested, working together at a vegan cafe in the East Village and presumably still trying to revive/continue DOS on his behalf. Nicki is still very vested and has been very vocal lately, along with four other women as they were trying to claim due process wasn't served, the Feds framed him and threatened them, etc. As a huge BSG fan, the whole thing blows my mind. I was surprised to learn too that she joined NXIVM before Allison Mack did and possibly was just as involved in creating DOS. She seems lucky to have not gotten charged with anything.

Sarah had plastic surgery to remove the brand and India had a mandala with an evil eye and a phrase I've forgotten now tattooed over it. Oh here it is from People magazine: "I created a mandala with an evil eye to ward off bad energy and lies," Oxenberg tells PEOPLE. "It has the latin phrase ancora imparo, with means, 'Still, I'm learning.' And I still am."

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MaryPatShelby

MaryPatShelby

On 10/27/2020 at 3:19 PM, LeGrandElephant said:

I still can’t believe these documentary makers showed Sarah being all upset that her “best friend” Lauren talked her into getting giving over collateral and branded, but didn’t even mention that Lauren kept a young woman* imprisoned in a small bare empty room

How do we know for a fact that Sarah knew about this? In the CBC podcast, the host (Josh Bloch, I think is his name) talks about the wedding photos on Sarah and Nippy's wall, with post-it notes over Lauren's faces  Sarah makes a comment similar to "a whole LOT is going to have to change for thost post-its to ever come off".  I think it's plausible that she had no idea of the scope of what Lauren was up to.

I'm glad someone above knew how Nippy came by that name; in the podcast it said he'd been called that for many years, and when Sarah first met him she was like "What kind of a name is Nippy?" just like we all did on this forum.

 

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luckyroll3

luckyroll3

2 hours ago, truebluesmoky said:

Yes, but it's been purported to be a sham marriage for immigration reasons. Apparently it was a secret marriage that didn't come out until Allison's legal proceedings.

And reportedly done because Keith told them to. 

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Maysie

Maysie

17 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Sarah makes a comment similar to "a whole LOT is going to have to change for thost post-its to ever come off". 

Which, to me, comes across as she's still somewhat in Lauren's thrall. I'm sorry, but if my bff recruited me to be her slave, took collateral from me, enticed me to do the same to others (basically leaving me vulnerable to federal charges), I don't know that I'd ever be open to taking those post-it's off. And when you add in the little things, such as sex trafficking and keeping a woman prisoner for two years, well, I'd be scavenging around for wedding pictures that didn't have her in them. In fact, I'd probably be more focused on replacing those pictures with other ones with my husband, kids and other healthy, happy relationships. But that's just me.

Will any of these people get some therapy to help them cope with their trauma? Sometimes it feels like they get off on re-living the trauma or feeding the victimization.

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pigs-in-space

pigs-in-space

4 hours ago, Maysie said:

Will any of these people get some therapy to help them cope with their trauma? Sometimes it feels like they get off on re-living the trauma or feeding the victimization.

Bonnie mentioned reaching out to a cult counselor right before she left (the story where she tried to hide the phone call from the cameras). But I think it comes back to two things. First, they've been told there are no victims and suddenly they've broken free of that mindset, and it must feel really liberating to be able to say, "Guess what, it was your fault." Second, I think some people who go through trauma do find it helpful to speak about it a lot. Granted the way they are doing it might not be the most healthy, but it doesn't surprise me. I work with an organization that does crisis counseling (I'm not a counselor, just involved in peer-to-peer stuff), and the amount of times I have heard the exact same story from someone (sometimes only a couple of hours apart!) is too many to calculate. Again, not the healthiest coping mechanism outside of therapy, but at the same time a natural reaction.

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LeGrandElephant

LeGrandElephant

On 11/3/2020 at 7:49 PM, MaryPatShelby said:

How do we know for a fact that Sarah knew about this?

 

I mean, she knows about it now if we all know about it. They could show her reacting to the New York Times article announcing it. I’m not saying I have any idea *when* Sarah knew, just that it’s weirdly incomplete for the documentary not to even mention it and that that would have been a way to work it in while still focusing on their main characters that they have available to interview. 

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ElectricBoogaloo

ElectricBoogaloo

Allison Mack Allegedly Tried to Recruit Smallville Co-Star Alaina Huffman Into NXIVM Sex Cult

Quote

Huffman -- who played Dinah Lance/Black Canary on Smallville -- explained that she was invited to meetings several times by Mack, but she never actually made it to those meetings for various reasons.

"As a young woman, 27, 28, on Smallville, Ally was a couple of years younger than me and here she was flourishing, very well put together, a really peppy and independent woman," Huffman said. "She invited me a few times to some of these events and for whatever reason, I never made it, maybe because I was married and had kids and I might have had something else that grounded more than I needed that kind of grounding, but I can understand the appeal."

Huffman also said that Mack wasn't the only person who tried to recruit her. She revealed that Bonnie Piesse, who played Beru Lars in Star Wars: Attack of the Clones and Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, also attempted to invite her to NXVIM.

"We went out for dinner and she was like, 'Oh, you've got to come to this group,'" Huffman said. "I said, 'Oh yeah, I know it from Ally.'"

 

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AryasMum

AryasMum

On 10/5/2020 at 1:05 PM, Pop Tart said:

I've felt for a while now that the show has been tip-toeing around what the Bronfman's were actually doing in the organization and it's only through Toni (and a bit from Barbara and Susan last week) that we're starting to get into their particular contribution to the badness of it all. But still it's only the tip of the iceberg and mostly has to do with their funding the lawsuits. In that impact statement that a victim read at Clare's sentencing it's clear that she at least was intimately involved in the inner workings of it all, and yet we get little of that here. 

I had a thought after tonight's episode that perhaps the reason the producers of this haven't done a deeper dive into the Bronfman sisters and have only touched on their behavior is that perhaps they didn't want to get sucked into the maw of the endless lawsuits the Bronfmans would fund to go after them. When you hear Toni, Barbara and Susan talk about the years and years of fight they've had to endure and are still enduring? Makes me think the doc producers may have been wary maybe.

I agree. Going Clear left out a lot of stuff, including the death of Lisa McPherson, in fear of the massive litigative war machine of the CO$.  

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AAEBoiler

AAEBoiler

On 11/29/2020 at 2:01 PM, Door County Cherry said:

I was watching Five Star Christmas on Hallmark and lo and behold, Sarah showed up as the dead mother in a home video.  

Spoilers!!!

Actually, I was just coming here to say that I was watching "Welcome to Christmas" from 2018 and Sarah has a part in that one too. It's sorta taking me out of the movie a bit every time she pops up on screen.

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Maysie

Maysie

Finally coming on to say that last week, The New York Times ran a piece - "Which Nxivm Show is Better?" - by the reporter who broke the story for the paper. He said he watched both series reluctantly because he'd had his fill of the cult, but he was curious to see how his impressions matched with the documentarians' takes.

The first thing that jumped out at me is the reporter said that The Vow's documentarians (Jehane Noujaim and Karim Amer) were the ones that reached out to him and asked him to speak to Mark, who then put the reporter in touch with Catherine, Bonnie and Sarah. I don't know why, but I thought it was Mark or Catherine who reached out to the reporter directly. I don't think the documentary made it clear that the filmmakers were the ones that made the initial contact to the NYT, and I kind of feel like they should have.

This was also an interesting part:

"But while the documentary’s vérité style offers intimacy, several defectors in the show are Hollywood types comfortable around a camera and seem at times to be playing to it. Also, in my first encounters with the film’s characters, they stuck me as messier — and in turn, more interesting — than how they appear in “The Vow.”

For instance, Vicente and Edmondson insisted during our first talks that Nxivm wasn’t a cult but a self-improvement group that had somehow gone off the rails. And Vicente, a filmmaker who shot much of footage chronicling Raniere’s reign that animates “The Vow,” told me that he still wanted to promote a movie he had made that glorified Raniere’s activities in Mexico. I told him I thought he was nuts."

He felt that the fact that Mark was a member of another cult before NXIVM was left out was a crucial omission in "The Vow" (evidently that's going to be part of season two). He also noted that there was some friction and "competition" between "The Vow" and "Seduced."

In the end, his opinion was "Seduced" did a better job of matching his impression of NXIVM gained through writing about the cult, but he thought both could have done more to explore outside enablers of the cult (public officials, lawyers).

It was a short, but interesting read. I don't know if you need a subscription to read it, but the link is here.

 

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Door County Cherry

Door County Cherry

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6 hours ago, Maysie said:

For instance, Vicente and Edmondson insisted during our first talks that Nxivm wasn’t a cult but a self-improvement group that had somehow gone off the rails. And Vicente, a filmmaker who shot much of footage chronicling Raniere’s reign that animates “The Vow,” told me that he still wanted to promote a movie he had made that glorified Raniere’s activities in Mexico. I told him I thought he was nuts."

He spoke with them right as they were leaving.    I think The Vow clearly showed that Mark and Sarah were still having a hard time reconciling the what they thought were the "good parts" of NXVIM with the fact that it was all in service of a cult.  As they got further and further away from the cult, I think they got a little more aware but we all noticed their issues.  The doc didn't call them out but it didn't hide them either.

I finally got to watch Seduced thanks to the free premium week last week.  I think they did a better job of looking at the all out creepiness of Keith which I think The Vow only started to touch on.  But I did think The Vow did a better job of showing his early shenanigans.  

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ElectricBoogaloo

ElectricBoogaloo

5 hours ago, Maysie said:

For instance, Vicente and Edmondson insisted during our first talks that Nxivm wasn’t a cult but a self-improvement group that had somehow gone off the rails. And Vicente, a filmmaker who shot much of footage chronicling Raniere’s reign that animates “The Vow,” told me that he still wanted to promote a movie he had made that glorified Raniere’s activities in Mexico. I told him I thought he was nuts."

Hahaha, this made me laugh so hard! This definitely explains why Mark and Sarah made sure to mention that they joined NXIVM to change the world and make it a better place so many times. Despite everything that Mark said, I think he still truly believes that he didn't do anything wrong and that he was too smart to get duped into joining a cult.

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Tachi Rocinante

Tachi Rocinante

On 12/3/2020 at 8:27 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Hahaha, this made me laugh so hard! This definitely explains why Mark and Sarah made sure to mention that they joined NXIVM to change the world and make it a better place so many times. Despite everything that Mark said, I think he still truly believes that he didn't do anything wrong and that he was too smart to get duped into joining a cult.

AGAIN.

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Tachi Rocinante

Tachi Rocinante

So, did anyone catch the Dateline special late last month? It focused mostly on India and Catherine, but also included interviews with Nicki Clyne and a brief phone call with Keith.

Nicki and several other women have formed some sub-cult of their own, called "The DOSsier Project" to defend their actions.  https://www.thedossierproject.com/

Keith is still a delusional narcissist, gave word salad answers and avoided admitting anything.

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dbklmt

dbklmt

2 hours ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

3 years in prison and a $20,000 fine. 😂

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/allison-mack-nxivm-sex-cult-sentence/

She could have gotten between 14 and 17 years.  Could have been her cooperation and the audio tape of Keith that she gave the prosecutors helped get her a lighter sentence.

Next for sentencing is Lauren Saltzman on July 28th.  Wonder when her disgusting mother Nancy will get her trip to the Big House?

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MicheleinPhilly

MicheleinPhilly

19 hours ago, izabella said:

It's not enough for all the lives she helped ruin.  She was a willing abuser and sex trafficker.

I completely agree. I do think her cooperation helped her in terms of the length of her sentence. I wasn't confident that she would spend more than a few months in prison so 3 years was a welcome surprise for me. 

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dbklmt

dbklmt

(edited)

https://ew.com/tv/keith-raniere-ordered-to-pay-millions-to-nxivm-victims-branding-removal/?did=655168-20210721&utm_campaign=ewk-tv_newsletter&utm_source=ew.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=072121&cid=655168&mid=62748885922

Don't think that Sarah or anyone else will be getting much as he most likely has no assets that he can use to pay anything.

Only 7 more days till Lauren Salzman gets sentenced on July 28th.

Edited by dbklmt
Edited to add additional thoughts
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Rlb8031

Rlb8031

On 7/22/2021 at 12:15 AM, dbklmt said:

https://ew.com/tv/keith-raniere-ordered-to-pay-millions-to-nxivm-victims-branding-removal/?did=655168-20210721&utm_campaign=ewk-tv_newsletter&utm_source=ew.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=072121&cid=655168&mid=62748885922

Don't think that Sarah or anyone else will be getting much as he most likely has no assets that he can use to pay anything.

Only 7 more days till Lauren Salzman gets sentenced on July 28th.

I'm not sure about the no assets thing. I think that part of what he had that woman working on (her name escapes me, but it was the financial person he had the son with who he hounded/sued for years), was setting up accounts to divert money from the Bronfmans (who were covering expenses) directly to him. He strikes me as being the type that has a Caymans or Swiss bank account somewhere that he's funneled $s into over the years.

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dbklmt

dbklmt

(edited)

Here's a good article about Lauren Salzman who is being sentenced today.

Her mother Nancy is next on September 8th.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/27/us/lauren-salzman-nxivm-sentencing/index.html

She got no jail time only 5 years probation.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9835913/Lauren-Salzman-45-AVOIDS-jailtime-despite-admitting-recruiting-sex-slaves-NXIVM-cult.html

Much more info in this article

https://www.thedailybeast.com/lauren-salzman-former-top-nxivm-lieutenant-dodges-jail-time

 

 

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