S04.E15: Clouds

[CrystalBlue]

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think it was $200.

I don't know why it's shocking that the therapist knew who Randall was. He's a politician in the city in which they live (assuming the therapist is local), and he's also had some very public speeches, complete with near breakdowns. In this world of cellphones, there's no way that last one didn't make it to the news. Not to mention him chasing down and beating a mugger. I'd think it would behoove her to know her patient's persona outside of what he's showing her in person. Disclaimer: I've never been, or seen, a therapist, so this is completely just my feeling on it.

I wonder if the rift isn't so much Randall being jealous of Kevin/Rebecca as her actually telling Randall she wants Kevin to help her through this. It makes sense, Randall is across the country and has a demanding job and a family. Kate has her own issues with Jack Jr. Kevin is willing and able to help, both financially and time-wise. And most importantly, he's willing to give her the kind of help she wants and needs. If she has to tell Randall this to get him to back off, I can imagine that being why 'we' are not speaking with Randall a few months from now.

I thought the baseball card was $200 too.  It's an old card, no way is it going for just two bucks.  We see Kevin not only completing his collection, but now being able to easily afford it - in cash!

About the therapist, I believe she should have disclosed from the get go, based on my knowledge of doctor-patient ethics.  It seemed to me that she set up all the distractions to trigger a high-anxiety patient (regardless of her taste in office decor artwork) and starting spinning her web before she announced she's very familiar with his public persona.  Randall and all patients have the right to feel safe and secure in their sessions from the beginning.  Randall is there for therapy, not to be the perfect patient.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

I thought the baseball card was $200 too.  It's an old card, no way is it going for just two bucks.  We see Kevin not only completing his collection, but now being able to easily afford it - in cash!

About the therapist, I believe she should have disclosed from the get go, based on my knowledge of doctor-patient ethics.  It seemed to me that she set up all the distractions to trigger a high-anxiety patient (regardless of her taste in office decor artwork) and starting spinning her web before she announced she's very familiar with his public persona.  Randall and all patients have the right to feel safe and secure in their sessions from the beginning.  Randall is there for therapy, not to be the perfect patient.

I just checked my DVR with captioning on and the clerk really does say two dollars. You'd think the age of it alone would make it worth more than that. 

Not gonna lie, I thought the therapist was Janeane Garofalo. Lol, I'm only barely convinced that it wasn't. 

[CrystalBlue]

9 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Yeah, and a lot of those type of people see therapists.  Being a therapist requires EXTRA empathy, not the apathetic lack of empathy one stranger has for another.  That's the job.  Of course a lot of patients are going to be difficult.  Of course a lot of patients will be there against their will.  I have a friend who is a therapist specifically for people who are court mandated to go to therapy.  Do you think those patients are easy?  Randall has anxiety.  So?  It's the therapist's job to ease it, to be approachable by Randall so that he can get some help.  I don't know why so many people see therapy as this game where the patient must be cowered and the therapist must win.

Some people go to therapy and are just crying the whole time.  That's why you always see boxes of Kleenexes and water readily available.  The therapist should try to make the patient feel comfortable.  It's not really the therapist's job to combat you like a boxer and hope that you get knocked out.

Absolutely!  You've explained this so well.

[dargosmydaddy]

On 2/26/2020 at 9:10 PM, CrystalBlue said:

I thought the baseball card was $200 too.  It's an old card, no way is it going for just two bucks. 

It was a common card of a non-superstar player. I found it weird that the guy at the shop had a random common card from the early 90's on hand, but not that it was $2. A quick search of John Candelaria on ebay produces a bunch of his cards in the $1-$2 range.

Edited March 1, 2020 by dargosmydaddy
didn't realize we're all the way to 1991...

[CrystalBlue]

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I certainly didn't think the therapist had any intention of using the painting or the magazines to trigger Randall. (As far as I'm concerned, 2017 magazines are recent for a doctor's office!)

But leaving the coffee machine on, while it makes that sound? I find that highly odd. Even if it wasn't left on intentionally, the decent thing to do once you hear it hissing is to turn it off.

I think it's entirely possible that the therapist, being familiar with Randall from watching his speeches (at the very least), was able to sense that he was a control freak, and decided to do a little experiment with how he reacts to an annoying noise.

Not only the decent thing to do, but the safest thing to do.  Fire! Hazard! Anyone?

[CrystalBlue]

3 hours ago, chocolatine said:

"Our house is a very very very fine house - in the middle of the street." (I'll see myself out.)

House Madness Mashup.  I love it!  😄

[buttersister]

Quote

Not gonna lie, I thought the therapist was Janeane Garofalo. Lol, I'm only barely convinced that it wasn't. 

You and me, both!

Also, the therapy scenes reminded me that there’s real-life therapy and there’s movie/TV therapy.

[CrystalBlue]

51 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just checked my DVR with captioning on and the clerk really does say two dollars. You'd think the age of it alone would make it worth more than that. 

Not gonna lie, I thought the therapist was Janeane Garofalo. Lol, I'm only barely convinced that it wasn't. 

Thanks for replaying your DVR as I'm too lazy to re-watch.  I'm surprised the card was only $2, and I thought I heard $200.  I obviously think all old baseball cards are worth a fortune.  😄

[BoogieBurns]

57 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not gonna lie, I thought the therapist was Janeane Garofalo. Lol, I'm only barely convinced that it wasn't. 

Their voices are quite similar, and their faces aren't different enough to bother. If you saw JG, you saw JG! lol

Pamela Adlon has been on more shows recently, so I expected it to be her, or possibly even saw it was her in the previews.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not gonna lie, I thought the therapist was Janeane Garofalo. Lol, I'm only barely convinced that it wasn't. 

That would have been great.

[Ms Blue Jay]

7 hours ago, PRgal said:

Also, was anyone surprised that Randall's therapist wasn't African-American?

He's so naive about therapy right now though.  If he saw a few therapists he might start to think about demographics and specialties.  He might prefer a male over a female, or vice versa.  He might prefer a therapist who specializes in adopted children or anxiety, etc. Or a therapist who knows a lot about Alzheimer's or caring for parents. But he's naive.  He thinks he has to stick with this therapist because he doesn't know any better.  And because it's a show, I kind of think they were driving the point that Randall = bad, therapist = good, which I think is so overly simplistic, and I have issues with it.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[Alexander Pope]

23 hours ago, ams1001 said:

I thought it was interesting how we didn't see the therapist's face until the end, when Randall went back and seemed ready to actually give her a chance to help.

me too! and then it was Pamela Adlon! I so identify her with Sam on Better Things.  Who would have told Randall what was what within the first ten minutes of that session.

[Quiet1]

38 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

Thanks for replaying your DVR as I'm too lazy to re-watch.  I'm surprised the card was only $2, and I thought I heard $200.  I obviously think all old baseball cards are worth a fortune.  😄

I was thinking that was cheap too, but in the past he received 14 packs for about $8 and each pack had a bunch of cards so just one card now I can see being just $2 as long as it wasn't a rare card. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I agree that Randall’s speechifying was over the top and horrible AND that he’s as tight as a tick with anxiety that desperately needs professional attention, however, I get most of his gripes with the therapist’s office.  I am a professional and ensure that my client’s have varied, current reading material for their short wait time, cups for water or other beverage, snacks, and no annoying sounds. I’m very sensitive about noises too. So, that professional needed to get notice that her office needed some attention. The client/patient deserves respect.  He went overboard, but, was correct on most of it. Oh, he still needs help. 

[HollyGoLitely333]

What do we think the title of the episode is about? I can usually figure out the connections but I'm left clueless this time. I can't think of anything about clouds in the episode. Is it representative of Rebecca's mind clouding? 

 

[izabella]

Was it the painting in the doctor's office?  Was the girl with the balloons flying over clouds?  I just remember buildings.

Edited February 27, 2020 by izabella

[SueB]

Opinion on Therapist: I think she recognized his name on her calendar and took a moment to get some insight into him before he showed up.  I think she realized he would be difficult to get to a place of honesty (which is why she cut off the speechifying).  I don't think ANYTHING was a setup or deliberate.  Common curtsy means she should have shut off the coffee pot.  I think she MAY have left that going because she wanted to see his response but I don't think it was preplanned. 

Randall: Was freaked at being there. After his second breakdown, he really owed it to Beth to get therapy.  That he didn't shows how much of an issue this is.  He has a LOT of work to do. He was completely unfiltered regarding his sense of superiority to the rest of the family (which is actually hiding his sense of inferiority). 

Madison: I LOVED her OTT obsequiousness.  And totally laughed out loud that she wanted to dish to her best friend about how hot Kevin was.  It was awkward, funny, and totally Madison. My heart bleeds for her a bit but I don't want she and Kevin to get together. Excellent advice regarding Toby.

The pending conflict: Kevin has been looking for someone to take care of.  His Mom is his new mission.  This is not going to end well with Randall.  

[Alice Mudgarden]

Forgive me if someone mentioned this earlier in the thread and I didn't see it (low tablet battery atm) but, and maybe it's because I basically adore Kevin, the most telling - and heartbreaking - thing in the report card scene wasn't that they basically "yeah yeah yeah"-ed reading Kevin's report card, but how after they did, Rebecca reads out loud "needs to be the center of attention".

Kevin holds that baseball memory near and dear because it was him and his mom. Rebecca actually gave him the attention he had been craving. Sure, he had to essentially pester her to even get to do something for him, but they did it and it wound up being special. I was happy Rebecca told him he makes things fun and that's something people need too. He's more than that, but it was nice for him to hear that trait spoken of in a positive way. You know, because it is positive, Randall.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Alice Mudgarden

[Roxie]

23 minutes ago, HollyGoLitely333 said:

What do we think the title of the episode is about? I can usually figure out the connections but I'm left clueless this time. I can't think of anything about clouds in the episode. Is it representative of Rebecca's mind clouding? 

 

Could reference: the title of the Joni Mitchell album is Clouds; Rebecca’s mind; storm clouds brewing in the Pearson family. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Roxie
Confirmed title of album

[tennisgurl]

It is so nice to see Kevin and Rebecca get a plot together, both in the past and in the current time, it really feels like we hardly get plots with just Kevin and one of his parents, its usually Kate and Jack and their super close daddy's girl relationship, Kates complicated and sometimes resentful relationship with Rebecca, Randall and Rebecca being super close, or Jack dealing with Randall's many insecurities. Its nice that Kevin gets that nice memory of him and his mom growing up, and that they got to have a fun day together. Justin Hartley has really become an MVP this season, he was just killing me the whole episode. His big eyes that were just spilling with love when he was watching Rebecca sing, and then his face lighting up when his mom said how he makes things fun, he is just so expressive. You could really tell how much he wanted to hear something positive about himself from his parents. 

"I dont want TMZ to catch me breaking into Joni Mitchel's house with my mom...actually that could play..." 

Randall, to the shock of no one, is really bad at therapy. On the one hand, I do think his therapist was a bit too argumentative and pushed a bit too hard too quickly, especially considering Randall clearly didnt really want to be doing this. On the other, it was obvious that Randall so deeply didnt want to do this, and went in with an attitude of "this sucks and everything here sucks and fuck that painting in particular" that there was really no way for her to really win going in with him. Some of the things that were going on, like a random painting and a few missing cups and outdated magazines, are such minor things that he came in hard on, it was clear he was spoiling for a fight, so its hard to tell how much was her, and how much was us seeing her through Randall. I really hope that this helps Randall stop being such a sanctimonious dick and acting like the only person in his family with a functioning brain. I can get where he is coming from, in that he has taken the "job" of being the responsible one, and that identity is a big part of how he has always related to his family, but he can also be such a prick about it, acting like he knows better than everyone and that his wants and needs are more important than everyone elses because he is doing whats right, and is such a control freak that he cant imagine not being the one driving every choice and every conversation and gets super angry and defensive when thats questioned. His little rant about what a useless loser Kevin is was especially dickish, as Kevin has worked so hard at getting his life back on track (and lets not forget that Randall, who is the one in charge of keeping the family from falling apart, didnt even notice that his brother was high out of his mind and clearly a mess until he got a call from the cops, and spent pretty much his whole recovery telling him how much he sucked for being a drug addict) and that Kevin is pretty much the only person that Randall feels like he can talk to when he has his anxiety attacks. 

The report card scene is pretty much the Pearson family dynamic in a nutshell. Randall is an overachieving perfectionist who Jack and Rebecca shower with attention, Kate is dramatic and angsty and that causes Jack and Rebecca to shower her with attention, and Kevin is an afterthought. 

I didnt think that Madison would be Kevin's one true love, but now I wonder if she might be the one after all. Toby asking if she would be his new sister in law might be foreshadowing, and her saying how she hooked up with him because he knows her as herself, and not the pretty appealing perky imagine she puts out into the world, and I think thats what Kevin really wants. For people to see him, and not just sexy celeb Kevin Pearson.

She also gave Kate pretty solid advice, that Toby should feel safe to be honest with about his struggles. Yeah what he said was upsetting, but it was how he felt, was clearly overwhelmed, and getting pissed isnt going to help the issue. 

The ending was really nice, look at baby Jack!

[Mrs Shibbles]

13 hours ago, HollyGoLitely333 said:

What do we think the title of the episode is about? I can usually figure out the connections but I'm left clueless this time. I can't think of anything about clouds in the episode. Is it representative of Rebecca's mind clouding? 

 

 

13 hours ago, Roxie said:

Could reference: the title of the Joni Mitchell album is Clouds; Rebecca’s mind; storm clouds brewing in the Pearson family. 

Also the  song Rebecca was listening to from that album in the record store,  “Both Sides Now” mentions clouds related to changing perspectives on things at different times of your life.

 

Bows and flows of angel hair

And ice cream castles in the air
And feather canyons everywhere,
I've looked at clouds that way
But now they only block the sun
They rain and snow on everyone
So many things I would have done,
But clouds got in my way

I've looked at clouds from both sides now
From up and down and still somehow
It's cloud's illusions I recall
I really don't know clouds at all

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Mrs Shibbles
the lyrics look better italicized

[Higgins]

19 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

This makes sense, and I agree about the provoking being odd/unprofessional. I just didn't think he should be so shocked and affronted that she knew who he was and had 'googled him'.

Again, asking as someone who has never done therapy, is it believable or even reasonable that a guy who has been hospitalized for an anxiety attacks, even had what might be considered a nervous breakdown, has never seen any kind of therapist? Wouldn't it be mandated at some point during all that?

Unless he was a danger to himself or others, no reason for hospitalization. However if he was, he would most definitely have seen a therapist and had discharge appointments for both therapy and a psychiatrist for medical management.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Higgins

[MissLucas]

5 hours ago, Mrs Shibbles said:

 

Also the  song Rebecca was listening to from that album in the record store,  “Both Sides Now” mentions clouds related to changing perspectives on things at different times of your life.

Also known as the song playing during -that- scene in 'Love Actually'. You know the one where Emma Thompson gives a master class in acting aka the one I definitely need a hanky to get through.

One thing that really got to me during the score card scene was how dismissive everyone (with the exception of Kate who was busy sulking) was about Kevin's A's. Yet they were for the two subjects that turned out to be Kevin's career paths: PA and arts. Why not give him positive feedback for those and then talk to him about his other grades? Right, because he's Kevin *eyeroll*

Randall's rant about being the one who keeps the family together was telling and it's the one thing about the therapy session I'm not holding against the character. This is his perspective and how he feels - no matter what it looks like from the outside - and that's what therapy is for. Get it out there without filter and work through it. It's  feeding his anxiety and his sense of identity and that will be difficult to detangle. If that gets challenged - when Kevin steps in to take care of Rebecca - things will go south quickly. What confuses me right now about the flash-forward is why Kate is also no longer talking to Randall. There's still a piece of the puzzle missing. 

[Pallas]

6 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

What confuses me right now about the flash-forward is why Kate is also no longer talking to Randall.

We don't know that she isn't. But she's not speaking to Randall -- or celebrating their mutual 40th birthday with Randall -- in the presence of their mother and Kevin.

[ShadowFacts]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Randall, to the shock of no one, is really bad at therapy.

He was really uncomfortable, and who isn't at a first appointment? He let his issues right out, which many people don't/can't for a long while. He isn't going to be 'cured' of anything, certainly not out of the gate. He will at best gain insights and make small changes. Kind of the way Kevin has -- he was indeed a mess not that long ago. It's now being set up as horrible Randall and angelic Kevin, which is so simplistic. Yes, they'll tangle over who knows best for Rebecca (and that should definitely be Miguel) but in the end, as we've seen, they all come together for her. I think reconciliations are a theme now, Nicky came into the fold, Kate and Rebecca are closer than ever, Toby and Kate are back on the same page; Randall and Kevin will hug it out, too, eventually. It makes me wonder if Sophie will rejoin the family.  

[Crs97]

I think it’s an UO, but I like Madison and have no problem with Madison being the one for Kevin.  I actually dislike the Hallmark movies that seem to feed the fiction that first loves are the soulmates you can’t live without.  I would like Kevin to come to some realization that Sophie is wonderful and their relationship brings back comforting memories of an easier, safer time, but they just aren’t good together.  They tried as kids and as adults, and he doesn’t do well when he is with her.

I did not miss Randall’s kids at all and actually forgot about Deja until he said he had three girls.  They can continue to be skipped for more Kevin/Rebecca scenes.  I also need an episode focused on Miguel.

[cameron]

Guess Rebecca forgot that Judy Collins was the first one to record Both Sides Now in 1968.

[cameron]

On 2/26/2020 at 7:19 AM, ShadowFacts said:

I have to throw a little shade on the report card revelation scene. That was some kind of questionable. Way to fan the flames of sibling rivalry, Jack and Rebecca. At least it wouldn't have gone over well in my household, or my family of origin, either. 

Also thought that report card night was harsh.  Have parents do this in my mind is heartless.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

32 minutes ago, cameron said:

Guess Rebecca forgot that Judy Collins was the first one to record Both Sides Now in 1968.

Well yeah, as have 40 or 50 other artists (including Leonard Nimoy !!!) but it's Joni's song, and Joni seems to be an idol of Rebecca's, so it makes sense it's hers she listens to.

[Ohiopirate02]

10 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

He's so naive about therapy right now though.  If he saw a few therapists he might start to think about demographics and specialties.  He might prefer a male over a female, or vice versa.  He might prefer a therapist who specializes in adopted children or anxiety, etc. Or a therapist who knows a lot about Alzheimer's or caring for parents. But he's naive.  He thinks he has to stick with this therapist because he doesn't know any better.  And because it's a show, I kind of think they were driving the point that Randall = bad, therapist = good, which I think is so overly simplistic, and I have issues with it.

I do wonder if Randall did his research to find the absolute worst therapist for his issues.  We know he took the time to find the best doctor for Rebecca in LA, proceeded to hound that office until he could get her an appointment, took the time to find the right therapist for Tess, and he doesn't believe therapy would work for him.  Add that all together, and I could see him finding a bad therapist so he can have one horrible session and call it a day.  Then Beth called his bluff and he has to go back to the first therapist. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Higgins said:

Unless he was a danger to himself or others, no reason for hospitalization. However if he was, he would most definitely have seen a therapist and had discharge appointments for both therapy and a psychiatrist for medical management.

But he was hospitalized, however briefly, at least once, after his S1 breakdown. In fact, they mention his psychiatrist approving his road trip with William in the next episode (I'd forgotten this). From EW's recap:

Quote

It’s only been a week since our dear Randall’s anxiety-fueled breakdown, and already the guy seems better. He’s feeling so much better, in fact, that he would very much like to go on a road trip down to Memphis with William. Beth is against the idea, and so they bring it to Randall’s psychiatrist. It’s a wonderful scene that immediately shoots to the top of the Why Randall and Beth Are the Best list. Even the psychiatrist realizes how adorable those two are! He also recognizes that a trip away, where Randall might meet some extended family, could be good for him.

I know that a psychiatrist and a therapist aren't the same thing, but this season's episodes are kind of implying that he's never had or sought treatment at all.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

I think it’s an UO, but I like Madison and have no problem with Madison being the one for Kevin.  I actually dislike the Hallmark movies that seem to feed the fiction that first loves are the soulmates you can’t live without.  I would like Kevin to come to some realization that Sophie is wonderful and their relationship brings back comforting memories of an easier, safer time, but they just aren’t good together.  They tried as kids and as adults, and he doesn’t do well when he is with her.

 

I agree.  I could live with a second-chance romance between Kevin and Sophie if the writers didn't already do that in season 2.  Madison is interesting, she has been around since season one, but we don't know that much about her.  There is a lot of room for the writers to craft a satisfying romance between Kevin and Madison.  They could be written as equals instead of Kevin having to "earn" being with Sophie.  Kevin and Madison can bond making Rebecca's life fun while also being responsible adults.  It could actually be really sweet.

[Mrs Shibbles]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Also known as the song playing during -that- scene in 'Love Actually'. You know the one where Emma Thompson gives a master class in acting aka the one I definitely need a hanky to get through.

YES! My mind went there immediately! 
 

Harry: What is this we're listening to?
Karen: Joni Mitchell.
Harry: I can't believe you still listen to Joni Mitchell.
Karen: I love her. And true love lasts a lifetime. Joni Mitchell is the woman who taught your cold English wife how to feel.
Harry: Did she? Oh, that's good. I must write her sometime and say thanks.

 

[luna1122]

I do think Pamela Adlon is a 'get'...she's a great, weird character actress who helms her own show. And I don't think any of the stuff that annoyed Randall was a set up. What was so weird and triggering about that painting? I liked it.

The coffee pot thing was something that would never bother me, I wouldn't even notice it, for awhile. I don't think it was a set up either, tho when it bothered Randall so much, I think the therapist found it interesting to see how it was affecting him, and why.

Adlon is apparently going to be back on as the therapist, without all the directorial maneuvering, so she'll be on camera and more interactive.

I also think the title Clouds is referencing the Joni Mitchell album, among other things.

 

Also:  tho Kevin 'okay boomer'd  Rebecca when she talked of staring at this album for hours, how beautiful IS this artwork?

Edited February 27, 2020 by luna1122

[Wouldofshouldof]

On 2/26/2020 at 8:54 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

The show has been very vague about Kate in the flashforward.  Jack is mentioned with a "they" included, and Toby arrives by himself.  I personally don't think Kate is dead in the flashforward. 

I think it's possible they haven't shown future Kate because she would be the same weight as present Kate, and the goal is to have Chrissy Metz lose weight over time (when the show premiered it was revealed it's a part of her contract). To date she's lost over 100 lbs.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I think it’s an UO, but I like Madison and have no problem with Madison being the one for Kevin.  I actually dislike the Hallmark movies that seem to feed the fiction that first loves are the soulmates you can’t live without.  I would like Kevin to come to some realization that Sophie is wonderful and their relationship brings back comforting memories of an easier, safer time, but they just aren’t good together.  They tried as kids and as adults, and he doesn’t do well when he is with her.

I don't have a horse in the race, I don't care much who he ends up with, if anyone (he shows up alone to the big cabin, Randall asks his son where his father is, not his mother and father). I don't go with the first love or soulmate obsession in fiction either, but I also don't think Hallmark will be moving on to the meaningless sexcapade becoming the love for the ages (that Kevin is apparently in search of) anytime soon. The third time being the charm with Sophie is unlikely, but I think that door is left open at the end of the Sophie-heavy episode, and now the door is open with Madison, on purpose so we can all guess. She may indeed be the pregnant fiance, but not necessarily last in the long haul. Kevin seems a little like a serial monogamist, who has convinced himself he wants to replicate what his parents had.

[Jax7917]

I wouldn't mind Kevin being with Madison if they would mature her character a little bit. Goofiness is one thing, but she comes off annoying and says things like the typical tv dumb girl character and its off putting. 

I think Sophie would be "the one" but I remember the actress didn't really resonate with a lot of people so maybe that's why they kinda steered away from that.

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, cameron said:

Guess Rebecca forgot that Judy Collins was the first one to record Both Sides Now in 1968.

Yes, but Judy Collins might not have had an old house in LA that they could go sneak into.  They might have had to take one of the patented TIU road trips to Denver or Seattle or somewhere. /snark

[Ohiopirate02]

28 minutes ago, Wouldofshouldof said:

I think it's possible they haven't shown future Kate because she would be the same weight as present Kate, and the goal is to have Chrissy Metz lose weight over time (when the show premiered it was revealed it's a part of her contract). To date she's lost over 100 lbs.

I think that is a big part as to why we haven't seen Kate in the flashforward.  It also makes a lot of narrative sense not to lay all of the cards out on the table until the main timeline catches up.  Kate is also not the only character we have not seen.  Annie and Deja have not shown up yet either.  The writers are teasing the audience and getting all of us to speculate on the details. They also are still writing the show, and things change.  Jack last year was only mentioned probably because they writers had not decided at the time of filming that episode he would be blind.   I get that.  What I don't get is the automatic assumption that Kate is dead because Chrissy Metz is fat.  

As to Chrissy's contract, I want to say the original contract required her to have weight loss surgery.  It was quickly decided after the show became a hit that was going way too far.  I believe she is not contractually obligated to lose weight.  I agree that she has obviously lost weight, and that is all her decision.  

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

I do think Pamela Adlon is a 'get'...she's a great, weird character actress who helms her own show. And I don't think any of the stuff that annoyed Randall was a set up. What was so weird and triggering about that painting? I liked it.

The coffee pot thing was something that would never bother me, I wouldn't even notice it, for awhile. I don't think it was a set up either, tho when it bothered Randall so much, I think the therapist found it interesting to see how it was affecting him, and why.

Adlon is apparently going to be back on as the therapist, without all the directorial maneuvering, so she'll be on camera and more interactive.

I also think the title Clouds is referencing the Joni Mitchell album, among other things.

 

Also:  tho Kevin 'okay boomer'd  Rebecca when she talked of staring at this album for hours, how beautiful IS this artwork?

Right. So let me confirm, I have it straight.   So, Joni Mitchell's house was what Rebecca wanted to see, but, the neat fact was that Graham Nash's song (which Rebecca and Jack sang back in the day and that was recorded by Crosby, Stills and Nash) was written about his experience one day in that house with Joni.  And, Clouds (name of this episode)  is perhaps a reference to Joni  Mitchell's separate work on the song Both Sides Now, where the term "clouds" is used repeatedly.  And, name of the album is Clouds. I really wish they'd gone with Rebecca liking and singing Both Sides Now, as it fits the situation perfectly.  But, perhaps they will eventually.  I really liked that scene of Kevin and Rebecca pulling up to the house and getting out.  It was such an iconic time for history, music, etc.  from back in the day.   What a treat.  One of my favorites of this series, so far. 

It's rather funny with all the controversy of the therapist's office.  That picture on the wall.....hmmm....yesterday, I was at my Dermatologist office and was looking at this large art piece on the wall as I waited in the examination room.  Next to it were signs warning the dangers of tanning.  The print was of people strolling on the beach underneath umbrellas and one sitting under an umbrella!  lol  So......

Edited February 27, 2020 by SunnyBeBe

[Euphony]

22 hours ago, greekmom said:

Gawwww. Thank you poster above for reminding me.

Who does Randall rely on when he has these big attacks?  Kate? No.  Rebecca? No.  Beth? Nope.  It's Kevin.

Even though Kevin might have been a bit flaky in the past, I think he is overall the glue that held the family together as he is mostly like Jack.

I think Randall's failing is that he thinks one person can hold a family together. Rebecca held that family together just as much as Jack. Randall was a big support to Rebecca, but Kevin was (somewhat counter-intuitively) a big support to him. And we have seen Kate supporting Kevin's career, Randall and Kate supporting each other through Jack's death...etc. Randall just has a really skewed perspective.

[kili]

Quote

I think Randall's failing is that he thinks one person can hold a family together.

Plus, he's dismissive of other people's skills. Kevin's acting. Beth's dancing. The therapist's therapy skills. He's holding the family together because only his skills matter.  Rebecca and Jack never corrected him on this.

[Alexander Pope]

12 hours ago, HollyGoLitely333 said:

What do we think the title of the episode is about? I can usually figure out the connections but I'm left clueless this time. I can't think of anything about clouds in the episode. Is it representative of Rebecca's mind clouding? 

 

I thought it was referring to the Joni Mitchell album that Rebecca loves.

[ShadowFacts]

48 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The writers are teasing the audience and getting all of us to speculate on the details.

Totally. Kate being alive will be a big reveal, probably. But not necessarily. She may have died, lots of shows like to kill off a major character and she's a candidate not just because of her weight. Twelve to fifteen years into the future she would be close to Jack's age when he died, of a widowmaker heart blockage, so she has that family history. So does Kevin but he has less risk. We don't see her in this episode in Jack Damon's pre-teen future and beyond. That could be because his mom would naturally take a step back from his garage band. Or . . Toby did make the studio for the both of them, so we are left with two possibilities, just like with Kevin's fiancee. Because that generates interest.

[izabella]

I think they are just hiding Kate because they aren't sure of what the weight loss story on her will be, or won't be.  That's it. 

[cameron]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well yeah, as have 40 or 50 other artists (including Leonard Nimoy !!!) but it's Joni's song, and Joni seems to be an idol of Rebecca's, so it makes sense it's hers she listens to.

Joni did write it, but Judy recorded it first.

Just played both now and actually prefer Judy's rendition.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, cameron said:

Joni did write it, but Judy recorded it first.

Just played both now and actually prefer Judy's rendition.

For the record, I do, too, but I'm not Rebecca. 😉

Joni's later rendition of it was part of the Vancouver Olympics opening ceremonies and it was amazing. Song starts about 1 minute in, but the whole thing is worth watching.

 

[smartymarty]

On 2/26/2020 at 8:32 AM, icemiser69 said:

And he does have a point.  After Jack died, he was the only one that could be counted on.

That was not his job! He's the child, Rebecca was the parent. Randall self-appointed himself as her helper when it should have been the other way around. And he's brought this "duty" into adulthood, ignoring not just his other siblings, but his mother's husband!! I find Randall very narcissistic in his "only I can save everybody."

[Higgins]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But he was hospitalized, however briefly, at least once, after his S1 breakdown. In fact, they mention his psychiatrist approving his road trip with William in the next episode (I'd forgotten this). From EW's recap:

I know that a psychiatrist and a therapist aren't the same thing, but this season's episodes are kind of implying that he's never had or sought treatment at all.

That would be unlikely IRL. He wouldn't need hospitalization for panic attacks. I am an inpatient Psychiatric RN. Hospitalization is for people who are a danger to themselves and or others.

[AzraeltheCat]

6 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I think it’s an UO, but I like Madison and have no problem with Madison being the one for Kevin.  I actually dislike the Hallmark movies that seem to feed the fiction that first loves are the soulmates you can’t live without.  I would like Kevin to come to some realization that Sophie is wonderful and their relationship brings back comforting memories of an easier, safer time, but they just aren’t good together.  They tried as kids and as adults, and he doesn’t do well when he is with her.

This!!! I'm over Kev and Sophie. They just don't work any more...and that's okay.  I am kinda liking Madison with him.