S01.E05: Stardust City Rag

[paigow]

CTU Perimeter = Romulan Kill Team

Who are these guys??? Tal Shiar destroys lab before securing Maddox...if they were still willing to trade for him, how did they not find him before this?

[Netfoot]

I fell asleep.  Twice.

[Cthulhudrew]

Good episode. A nice mix of action and intrigue, although I do think they relied a little too heavily on the tropes of "heist" flicks with the back and forth cuts between the planning and the execution.

I also find it a little hard to believe that facial recognition technology isn't sophisticated enough in that era to easily detect Picard's deception (especially considering he had a high-profile interview on the holos very recently).

It would have been nice to see Elrond Elnor get in on the action (that should have been his kill shot), but I really surprisingly enjoyed the Seven of Nine storyline. I didn't watch much Voyager (couldn't stand the cast or the plot), but what I do recall that Jeri Ryan was one of the most solid casting choices (aside from the juvenile insistence of the showrunners on having her in the skintight uniform). Her performance and the story really impressed me here. I hope her turn on the show isn't done yet. I think there is a lot to explore between her and Picard.

Not surprised by the ending, although a little disappointed. Agnes's turn was a bit too telegraphed. I do wonder how she is going to keep the EMH from talking. My ears pricked up at the name drop of Noonian Soong. Was Maddox speaking figuratively, or literally (ie, did Soong somehow survive the end of "Brothers" or was Maddox just referring to his research?)

Next week looks like it will pick right back up. Looking forward to it.

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Cthulhudrew
Edited b/c I keep wanting to spell "Maddox" as "Maddicks" for some reason.

[Cthulhudrew]

On 2/20/2020 at 3:46 AM, ottoDbusdriver said:

...Raffi seems to know more about what happened with the synths than she has let on previously.  

Does she? I was under the impression that she was already pretty sure there was a bigger conspiracy at play, which is why she was supportive of Picard, and why he went to her for help. I think she only knows enough to know there's a conspiracy, but not the specifics (which is why her family wrote her off as a nut, and she got pushed out of Starfleet). She'll definitely be on a quest to get that evidence now, though.

[wanderingstar]

Didn't see Agnes' betrayal of Maddox coming. I guess she's spying for Commander Oh.

I didn't miss any of the Borg cube stuff *shrug*

[dwmarch]

On 2/20/2020 at 6:56 PM, Prower said:

The talk between Picard and Seven was stupid. He was part of the collective for a hot second. Sure, it traumatised him, but how would he have ever lost his humanity?

When Picard was Locutus the Borg had full access to all of his knowledge of Starfleet technology and tactics. Locutus destroyed 39 Starfleet ships and killed 11,000 of Picard's fellow officers.

14 hours ago, marinw said:

I remember her from 24!

It's funny that there's an explicit connection to 24 since I thought this was basically an episode of 24. It opens with gory torture and the hero arriving seconds too late. There's an undercover op that doesn't go as planned. The hero character goes on a guns-blazing rampage. A character gets strangled to death in a hospital bed where they are supposed to be safe. That was our only lead! Dammit, there's not enough time!

Edit: there was also a sub-plot about some family drama that no one cares about, another hallmark of 24.

14 hours ago, Llywela said:

Browsing around the Interwebz this morning, I see a lot of outraged fanboys complaining that violence, gore and vengeance have no place on a Star Trek show, which leads me to wonder which Star Trek show they think they are fans of, because honestly...TNG alone had more than its fair share of all three!

I certainly wouldn't character myself as outraged but I think they turned it up just a notch too far in this series. It reminds me of when the first rumors appeared that Quentin Tarantino was going to direct a Trek movie. Once we got the obvious jokes out of the way ("Do you see a sign on my shuttlebay door that says dead Klingon storage?") I was left to wonder what Quentin's hallmarks on Trek would look like. Sexytime stuff would be nothing special (and indeed, no one I have seen thus far is clamoring for more Romulan hints of incest), gore would be gratuitous (why do the phasers now have a "ludicrous gibs" setting that explodes a person into a bloody cloud?) and characters who shouldn't swear would be dropping F-bombs all over the place (like Starfleet's Commander in Chief who should not require such language for dressing down a retired subordinate)

8 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I can't remember, is there any precedent that Romulans do not think of incest as taboo?

Can Picard contact Q? Q adored Data, and I think would help out or even bring Data back. 

I can't actually recall ever seeing any Romulan siblings in previous incarnations of Trek so I guess it boils down to whether or not you think the Vulcan reunification movement constitutes kissing cousins.

As for Q, I stick to my theory: Number One (Picard's dog) is actually Q.

7 hours ago, F8. said:

4. Definitely - and it wouldn't be surprising to shoehorn in an LGBTQ vibe somewhere

Hollywood is always okay with LGBTQ relationships if both chicks are hot. I laughed when I saw articles about Marvel's Runaways being so progressive for having a lesbian couple on the show. Like yeah, who would want to watch these two make out? (and look at Nico literally putting lipstick on!)

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Not surprised by the ending, although a little disappointed. Agnes's turn was a bit too telegraphed. I do wonder how she is going to keep the EMH from talking. My ears pricked up at the name drop of Noonian Soong. Was Maddox speaking figuratively, or literally (ie, did Soong somehow survive the end of "Brothers" or was Maddox just referring to his research?)

There is still a Julianna Soong out there somewhere presumably. And Noonien certainly could have cloned himself or created himself an android body. For that matter, Arik Soong might still be alive, hidden in the Briar Patch and staying young via that metaphasic radiation the Son'a wanted so badly.

Edited February 22, 2020 by dwmarch
Forgot what else 24 was famous for

[Hiyo]

Quote

I was left to wonder what Quentin's hallmarks on Trek would look like.

Don't forget we would get to see his (alien) foot fetish...

Quote

Hollywood is always okay with LGBTQ relationships if both chicks are hot.

The men also, usually.

[kokapetl]

17 hours ago, Llywela said:

Browsing around the Interwebz this morning, I see a lot of outraged fanboys complaining that violence, gore and vengeance have no place on a Star Trek show, which leads me to wonder which Star Trek show they think they are fans of, because honestly...TNG alone had more than its fair share of all three!

I mean, Icheb's torture and death was graphic and unpleasant, that's for sure, and it is sad to see that Seven has spent so many years of her life seeking revenge, but neither is anything unusual for Trek. TNG had an episode where the whole of Starfleet command was infiltrated and possessed by aliens, and the climax of that episode saw Picard and Riker phasering a man until his head exploded. There was another episode where K'Ehleyr was stabbed to death in her quarters on the Enterprise and died in a pool of blood in front of her toddler son. This prompted Worf, a Starfleet officer, to run off and kill a high-ranking Klingon politician purely to avenge her death - an act which, incidentally, also decisively resolved the future leadership of the Klingon High Council - with absolutely zero consequences. There was loads of violence in TNG, some of it extremely graphic. I suppose the difference was that in TNG it was usually wrapped up in fairly sanitized storytelling, whereas here they are embracing their higher rating by not pulling the punch, so to speak.

I had a TNG card game card:

Totally legal. 

9 hours ago, starri said:

Look at the name of the bar!!!!!

And Mr Mot, The Enterprise-D 💇‍♂️ 💇‍♀️ hairdresser. It’s a small world. 

[oldCJ]

I love reading people’s spoiler theories for this show. Some are likely to be far more exciting than the writers actually come up with!

Edited February 22, 2020 by oldCJ

[MissLucas]

The bar for what kind of gore is acceptable on tv has been significantly lowered over the past two decades. When the CSI franchise started with its TMI camera it was considered shocking but lots of shows followed suit. Criminal Minds for example had plenty of deeply disturbing imagery.

That said I agree that they made that scene so explicit in order to give viewers more emotional context to (even grudgingly) accept Seven's act of revenge.

[marinw]

8 hours ago, dwmarch said:

It's funny that there's an explicit connection to 24 

There is also the naked torture, but with a key difference:

ST:TNG

“Torture is bad, m’kay? To show you that torture is bad, we are going to torture Picard. This is serious folks! The nudity is there to show us that torture is bad, and the fact that Patrick Stewart was voted most Beautiful  Man on TV has absolutely nothing to do with it, you sick pervert.”

24:

“Kiefer is naked. You’re welcome.”

[paigow]

8 hours ago, dwmarch said:

(why do the phasers now have a "ludicrous gibs" setting that explodes a person into a bloody cloud?)

Seven probably tweaked the kill menu to Fenris Ranger Standard Options...when you really need to send a message...

[catsitter]

Can you really "make a deal" with the Tal Shiar?

[jcin617]

Seven becoming a space ranger sort of makes sense when you figure that a)  establishing order is sort of in a former Borg's wheelhouse and b)  Chakotay could have imparted all kinds of wisdom from his Maquis days about fighting "the good fight" for people abandoned by the Federation.  Heck, he may have been central to getting her involved in the first place.

I wonder how the rest of the command crew of Voyager reacted to Icheb's death, they all were close to him as well (although not as much as Seven, obviously).

Edited February 22, 2020 by jcin617

[marihunc]

19 hours ago, marinw said:

Good question. Q was driven by his whims, so who knows. Picard is loathe to ask Q for help with anything, and TPTB do have to be careful about using Q as a Deux Ex Machina too often. And they would need a way to explain John DeLancie's ageing, or have another Q visit Picard.

In the Autobiography of Jean-Luc Picard

Spoiler

Q actually ends up turning B-4 into Data.

I was quite disappointed that it didn't actually become canon in the show.

[Chaos Theory]

I wasn't sure I was going to like Elnor but my favorite parts were Elnor not able to be anyone other then Elnor and the lines' Are we still pretending?"  "No Elnor I think everyone has  finally stopped."  

The scenes between Picard and Seven were really well done.  I like the idea of Seven the ex Borg Fenris Ranger from the Delta Quadrant. That is one hell of a title.    Plus I also really like that Jean-Luc Picard represents hope and he keeps running into people that say "screw dat I am going to murder my enemy but its nice talking to you again. "

I did not see the death of Maddox coming especially by Agnes.  Not until it was actually happening.  Its a very dark turn for a character that has been a comedic character up until this point but it is a great one.  

Picard in an eyepatch and Seven in a leather jacket.  I approve on both counts,

But now I want to know more what happened to the crew of Voyager when they returned home? 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[Stardancer Supreme]

I want a Voyager character followup, too! Unfortunately, it will be without Robert Beltran. He has made no secret of how much he was not fond of his experiences on Voyager.

That actress who played Bjayzl? They should have used her as Troi's daughter or sister. She looks so much how Marina Sirtis used to look. 

Taking into account how the TNG cast has aged, if they were to bring Q into this show they would have to use Q's son.  Isn't Picard his godfather (I remember Janeway was the godmother of sorts)?

Anyway, love Elnor, dislike Agnes, everybody else is cool. 

[Aethera]

Please remember to treat each other with respect even when you disagree. Even if an opinion is stated as fact, or is strongly worded, remember that it's still an opinion on the internet, and not worth having a fight over. The most important rule here is to Be Civil to your fellow posters.

[starri]

I liked the nod to the fact that two people of different species would likely need a little help in order to have a baby.  That's something Trek usually glosses over.

[norcalgal]

On 2/20/2020 at 12:31 PM, Vandy10 said:

Well that took a sharp turn into Darksville. 

Good, but dark. 

I was with Seven; poor Icheb! I always liked the character. The actor who originally played him turned out to be problematic 😬 but the character was good.

I'm ready to get to the Artefact. Also ready to learn whatever mystical woo the Zhat Vash showed Agnes that was bad enough to turn her into a killer. End of days?

Count me in as someone else who always liked the Icheb* character. In fact, he was probably my fave Voyager character when he came on board. The only detraction from the character for me was how Icheb seemed to be an expert on different fields (astrometrics, genetics) without the basis for his expertise. I can't recall if the character was just supposed to be some genius/savant, but if I'm wrong, please correct me. The main reason I liked the introduction of Icheb was how it really humanized Seven for me. Her being a mother figure really (at last) "made" the Seven character more of a fully realized person. And, they both had the "former Borg, now coping with humanity" thing to bond them.

* I think I'll try to re-watch the Icheb-centric Voyager episodes if they're freely available somewhere.

On 2/20/2020 at 4:49 PM, greekmom said:

This one was much better than the previous 2 episodes.  My thoughts:

1. Bjayzl looked like a young Troi. Damn they missed an opportunity.

2. Agnes was in love with Maddox but killed him. No no one saw her double cross coming.

3. Glad they gave closure to the Icheb storyline even if they did use another actor.  Sad that he died. Now what the frack happened to Chakotay??  

4. Did anyone get a vibe from Bjayzl that she and Seven were more than good friends? 

Can't wait to see what happens next week.

1. Yes, I too had to take a long hard look to make sure that wasn't Marina Sirtis.

2. I had a sneaky feeling there was more to the Agnes character than was presented so far. I had a sense of foreboding when she was left along with Maddox that something foul was about to happen. I guess my cynicism served me well. Agnes just seemed too one-note thus far, so I thought there would be a twist thrown in.

3. I'm not happy they killed the Icheb character since I really liked him. Granted, this is only based on Voyager, since I never read any novels or encountered Icheb outside of the tv show.

4. I'm neutral on any "vibes" between Seven and Bjayzl, but I hated the canon of the Seven-Chakotay pairing because I was always on Team Janeway-Chakotay. I felt that the show just threw in the Seven-Chakotay romance out of nowhere. Voyager never took the time to develop their romance organically on the show they way they did with B'lanna and Tom Paris.

On 2/20/2020 at 11:47 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

I loved Rios dressed like a pimp. He didn't have the walk quite down though.

Elnor doesn't know how to not be Elnor.

Aw, Raffi's gonna be a grandma. And did anyone doubt she'd be back on board? I'm sure Picard didn't.

What is the nature of Aggie's psychiatric emergency? Geez, how much time you got? Hopefully the hologram will tell on her to Rios. (Yeah, no, I know holograms don't work like that. Just wishful thinking. 🙄)

I think Elnor might be my favorite character on this show.  I'll have to see how his character plays out.

On 2/20/2020 at 8:35 PM, SourK said:

LOL at past!me saying last week that I loved this show and hoped nothing happened to change that.

I still look forward to seeing Seven if/when she comes back again, but this transition feels weird to me. I know there was always some tension between her liking order because she was Borg vs her being kind of a rebel as a human, and it's valid to say that the rebel side won, but she's so different.

Also, when she killed Icheb and called him "my child," I know that what she meant was, "For those of you who didn't watch Voyager, or aren't huge nerds and don't remember, he was as a son to me," but what I heard was, "Remember how Kai Winn used to call everybody 'my child' before she did something really messed up?"

[snip]

Man oh man, Nurse Ratchet played Kai Winn so menacingly, creepily well. I can't recall...did Kira finally mete out "justice" to Kai Winn?

On 2/21/2020 at 6:31 AM, greekmom said:

I actually liked the Chakotay/Seven pairing. I remember remarking on this to Robert Beltran when I met him at Fan Expo years and years ago.  Writing it away with innuendos that Seven paired up with Bjayzl for a time makes me really sad that the writers just swept cannon under the rug.

Janeway fixed the timeline so Seven would survive along with Tuvok in the last two episodes of Voyager. 

At this point, if Agnes dies, I wouldn't care.  The character is so flat and boring. 

Sorry, as I wrote above, I was never on board with this pairing. Heck, I never once bought B'lanna and Tom as a couple but I'd still take them over Seven/Chakotay!

On 2/21/2020 at 11:33 AM, marinw said:

Good question. Q was driven by his whims, so who knows. Picard is loathe to ask Q for help with anything, and TPTB do have to be careful about using Q as a Deux Ex Machina too often. And they would need a way to explain John DeLancie's ageing, or have another Q visit Picard.

Hear, hear!  Picard could just ask his buddy Q to use his omnipotence to right all the wrongs with the present events/timeline. [Yeah, he never did this on ST:TNG but since ST:Picard is so different in tone, well, there's always a first time for everything!]  But if de Lancie is going to return as a beloved character, I'd rather see him on Days of Our Lives as Eugene once again - and only if Calliope is with him. Yes, I'm as old as dirt and remember him from his time on DOOL!😀

20 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

[snip]

It would have been nice to see Elrond Elnor get in on the action (that should have been his kill shot), but I really surprisingly enjoyed the Seven of Nine storyline. I didn't watch much Voyager (couldn't stand the cast or the plot), but what I do recall that Jeri Ryan was one of the most solid casting choices (aside from the juvenile insistence of the showrunners on having her in the skintight uniform). Her performance and the story really impressed me here. I hope her turn on the show isn't done yet. I think there is a lot to explore between her and Picard.

Not surprised by the ending, although a little disappointed. Agnes's turn was a bit too telegraphed. I do wonder how she is going to keep the EMH from talking. My ears pricked up at the name drop of Noonian Soong. Was Maddox speaking figuratively, or literally (ie, did Soong somehow survive the end of "Brothers" or was Maddox just referring to his research?)

Next week looks like it will pick right back up. Looking forward to it.

 

 

Re: the skintight suit, yeah that was sooooo annoying and obvious! It was as though they felt men (or young males) wouldn't watch unless the "Borg babe's" sexuality was front and center. Having said that, Jeri Ryan did a decent job with the character and the material given to her. In fact, come to think of it, I now see the actress and her character as a forerunner of the Six/Tricia Helfer from BSG. I too felt the latter elevated her character from mere sex symbol to a critical component that made BSG the show it was. Six/Caprica/whatever was at times, chillingly frightening, intriguing and sympathetic.

[Chaos Theory]

Seven of Nine fit because she represented Picard's time as a Borg drone as does Hugh on the "artifact".  I am waiting for their meeting.   I, Borg is still among my favorite episodes for the conversation between Picard and Hugh alone..  I have watched it so many times I know the scene almost by heart. 

I was never a Chakotay/Seven shipper.  I think always felt it was a last minute pairing off because writers and whatnot thought there was far too many Janeway/Seven shippers out there for a family Trek show.   At the time there was no way they were going to make them cannon so someone must have just paired Seven with whatever straight dude made sense.  

Regardless if you were a Janeway/Seven shipper or not there is no way Janeway would have left Seven to her own devises.  She would have done "something" so I would like to have Kate Mulgrew make an appearance even if it is just a "where is Janeway now in this much darker Federation that she found herself in."    Even if it just her being the voice of reason in a Star Fleet hunting down Picard.  

[starri]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

Regardless if you were a Janeway/Seven shipper or not there is no way Janeway would have left Seven to her own devises. 

This is the same Janeway who wouldn't turn off the holodeck and erase a program even though it was endangering the lives of her crew.

I don't think she would necessarily abandon Seven, but I also don't have a problem after seeing a broader swath of humanity, she'd realize that Janeway wasn't always someone to emulate.

[kokapetl]

15 hours ago, marihunc said:

In the Autobiography of Jean-Luc Picard

  Reveal spoiler

Q actually ends up turning B-4 into Data.

I was quite disappointed that it didn't actually become canon in the show.

That could still happen. 

[SourK]

On 2/21/2020 at 2:33 PM, marinw said:

Good question. Q was driven by his whims, so who knows. Picard is loathe to ask Q for help with anything, and TPTB do have to be careful about using Q as a Deux Ex Machina too often. And they would need a way to explain John DeLancie's ageing, or have another Q visit Picard.

I think he just has to say that he watched Picard getting old, so he made himself look old, too, and then he can gloat about how it's not a real body for him so he doesn't have to deal with all the sad humiliations of actual aging.

12 hours ago, norcalgal said:

Man oh man, Nurse Ratchet played Kai Winn so menacingly, creepily well. I can't recall...did Kira finally mete out "justice" to Kai Winn?

No, my friend, Kai Winn died in a much more extreme and bizarre way:

Spoiler

She accidentally fell in love with Gul Dukat while he was in disguise, and then the two of them worked together to go release the evil aliens that lived inside Bajor, and then Dukat got possessed by the Bajoran Devil and Kai Winn was mad that the devil didn't possess her instead, so she tried to cancel the summoning and Gul Dukat killed her.

 

[catsitter]

12 hours ago, starri said:

I liked the nod to the fact that two people of different species would likely need a little help in order to have a baby.  That's something Trek usually glosses over.

I remember it being discussed on DS9 when Worf and Jadzia wanted a baby, just before Jadzia died.

[marinw]

32 minutes ago, SourK said:

I think he just has to say that he watched Picard getting old, so he made himself look old, too, and then he can gloat about how it's not a real body for him so he doesn't have to deal with all the sad humiliations of actual aging.

Or they could do some creepy CGI De-ageing, which I always find uncanny valley.

[tennisgurl]

Its time for a Star Trek classic: Lets all dress up in silly outfits to blend in on some weird planet! This week, we head to space Vegas, and I cant decide who has the best disguise, Rios as some kind of 70s era pimp, or Picard, as a ridiculously hammy evil Frenchmen, complete with eye patch and beret and crazily over the top accent, like he is somehow playing Mirror Universe Picard. I know that Patrick Stewart said that one of the reasons he used a classy British accent to play the very French Picard was because he said his French accent sounded silly, but I had no clue how right he was!

Very interesting mix of camp and some intense darkness, especially connected to our old pal, Seven of Nine! Despite having never been on screen together, Seven and Picard had great on screen chemistry, so much that I was sad to see her go after just one episode, as I hoped she would stick around for a longer arc. Hope to see her again, I feel like they have a lot more to talk about, with the mutual history with the Borg. I really want to know what happened with Seven in-between now and the end of Voyager and if we will check in with anyone else. What happened between Seven and Chakotay? Are Tom and Torres still together? Did Harry Kim ever move up from being an ensign? Did Neelix ever get arrested for a mass food poisoning incident? inquiring minds want to know! Poor Icheb, what a said ending for his character. That really was nasty as fuck, I had to turn away when they were yanking his eye out. I know that Trek has had violence before, but damn guys! I get why Seven wanted revenge, and why Picard wanted Seven not to kill her, but...there had to be some other option beyond killing and leaving her alone to be evil and torture and kill more people. 

I wonder if some of the anger Raffi's son feels for his mom is because so many of her conspiracy's involve Romulans being behind stuff is that he has a Romulan wife and feels like the "BUT ROMULANS!" attitude would make her life harder? Obviously thats not what started their estrangement, but it probably didnt make him any more excited to welcome her back into his life again. 

On a lighter note,  Elnor is such a cutie. "Are we still pretending?" Yeah, going undercover would be tough when you grew up with people that stress always telling the whole truth. 

Another interesting episode for Rios, he helped to save Picard and company from the criminals and talked Seven down from killing her...former friend (ambiguous ex?) turned hated enemy (for then at least) by using a more pragmatic pitch than Picards more idealistic one, even if both of them were appealing to Sevens better nature, be it a more general "revenge killing is bad" or a more practical "your going to screw over all of these other people who tried to help you" approach. He and Picard also had some nice warmer banter, and he was super fanboying seeing Seven, if he didnt quite remember her name! 

Jurati! What the ever loving crap are you doing!? I guess whatever the Romulan lady showed her convinced her that the synthetics really should be destroyed, so that that she murdered someone she deeply cared about. I feel like most of her personality that we have seen is real, but filtered through a person with a hidden agenda. 

One thing that we will never escape, even in the future? Pop Up Adds! 

[marina to]

On 2/22/2020 at 6:03 PM, norcalgal said:

Count me in as someone else who always liked the Icheb* character. In fact, he was probably my fave Voyager character when he came on board.  The main reason I liked the introduction of Icheb was how it really humanized Seven for me. Her being a mother figure really (at last) "made" the Seven character more of a fully realized person. And, they both had the "former Borg, now coping with humanity" thing to bond them.

I loved Icheb too. 😭 Awful watching what happened to him here. I initially skipped ahead in watching this because I don't like torture, then had to go back when I realized who it was.

Quote

I hated the canon of the Seven-Chakotay pairing because I was always on Team Janeway-Chakotay. I felt that the show just threw in the Seven-Chakotay romance out of nowhere.

J/Cer here too. I hated the whole Seven/Chakotay thing and was thrilled when the first thing the novelizations did was break them up. Emotionally, Seven was a teenager. Chakotay being so much older, it was creepy on so many levels. It played as "Ï can't have Janeway so I'll settle for her protege". It was such utter bullshit so I'm glad it's been put canonically into the dust bin along with Worf/Troi. (Yes, Imzadi is my other pairing and I can't wait to see them!)

Where Seven ended up makes so much sense to me. She wasn't much for the way Starfleet did things but she always had her own internal compass, so becoming a ranger feels like a logical progression to me. It's also so good to see her out of that ridiculous catsuit. (Brannon Braga was such a perv.)

I'm coming to completely love Rios, and what incredible acting by Michelle Hurd this week. I'm also really enjoying Elnor. Really wish we had kept Maddox around. This better have one hell of a payoff because Aggie killing him looks really stupid right now.

I also didn't miss being on the cube at all this week. Back to it next week. *sigh*

[HotRats2112]

On 2/23/2020 at 6:14 AM, SourK said:

I think he just has to say that he watched Picard getting old, so he made himself look old, too, and then he can gloat about how it's not a real body for him so he doesn't have to deal with all the sad humiliations of actual aging.

This is what I was thinking.  Q was so obsessed with humans and wanting to have the human experience that it wouldn't surprise me if he aged himself. Or appeared that way.  

[marinw]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Patrick Stewart said that one of the reasons he used a classy British accent to play the very French Picard was because he said his French accent sounded silly, but I had no clue how right he was!

That and the fact the Eureopeans French peopleoften learn to speak English from the British, so they speak English with a Brtish Accent.

[norcalgal]

On 2/23/2020 at 3:14 AM, SourK said:

I think he just has to say that he watched Picard getting old, so he made himself look old, too, and then he can gloat about how it's not a real body for him so he doesn't have to deal with all the sad humiliations of actual aging.

No, my friend, Kai Winn died in a much more extreme and bizarre way:

  Reveal spoiler

She accidentally fell in love with Gul Dukat while he was in disguise, and then the two of them worked together to go release the evil aliens that lived inside Bajor, and then Dukat got possessed by the Bajoran Devil and Kai Winn was mad that the devil didn't possess her instead, so she tried to cancel the summoning and Gul Dukat killed her.

 

YIKES!  That whole spoiler sounds bizarre - not just the manner of Kai Winn's death. I'm sort of glad I stopped watching DS9 by the time that played out...

[benteen]

I've definitely been enjoying this show more and more as the week's go on.  It's not perfect, there are plenty of cliches and forced elements on this show and they are desperate to be edgy.  But I'm enjoying this return to the 24th century.  There's definite fun to be had here.

I did enjoy Picard and Seven's final conversation.  Stewart and Ryan worked well off of each other.

Quote

So does Picard have any leftover Borg bits? 

No but in First Contact, Picard still had a residual link with the Borg and was able to hear them in his head.  It's not a surprise he is still deeply affected by it.

Raffi and Rios also work very well off of each other.  I think it was an improvement for both of their characters though I'm not really invested in Raffi's problems with her son.

I knew as soon as we saw Agnes eavesdrop on Picard and Maddox's conversation that she would kill Maddox.  That being said, I never expected a character like her to turn out evil and think that's a good development.

I liked Freecloud.

The villain reminded me a lot of Marina Sirtis.

Edited February 25, 2020 by benteen

[TheGourmez]

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Picard/Patrick Stewart's hilariously bad French accent (I wonder if that was all a meta moment over how Picard is actually French, but always spoke in a British accent.) 

 Maybe, that far in the future, the French accent has evolved into a bad French accent!

[Kromm]

On 2/21/2020 at 9:31 AM, greekmom said:

At this point, if Agnes dies, I wouldn't care.  The character is so flat and boring. 

Even being a traitor (which was obvious almost from her initial appearance) she magically was still somehow annoying and boring.

On 2/21/2020 at 9:32 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

Not surprised by the ending, although a little disappointed. Agnes's turn was a bit too telegraphed.

Honestly, from her first scene in the series it was obvious. 

[Kromm]

On 2/20/2020 at 6:46 AM, ottoDbusdriver said:

Not sure about Raffi's backstory either -- her estranged son, Gabriel Hwang, living on Freecloud with a pregnant Romulan wife.  

I honestly couldn't tell if she was Vulcan or Romulan, although Romulan works better for the story.  She didn't have enough lines to judge her emoting.  LOL

[paigow]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

A character I would like to see on this show in future seasons?  Chancellor Martok.  One of my favorite Star Trek characters and I think the best Klingon character to appear on the show.

General Martok...He adopted Worf. Chancellor Gowron had a love-hate relationship with Worf but was a crafty and skilled politician that never hesitated to crush an enemy....

[greekmom]

I wonder if they may bring back Timothy from TNG's episode Hero Worship for next season.

[dwmarch]

5 hours ago, paigow said:

General Martok...He adopted Worf. Chancellor Gowron had a love-hate relationship with Worf but was a crafty and skilled politician that never hesitated to crush an enemy....

As we have some here who have not seen the final season of DS9, I will spoiler code this link to Martok's Memory Alpha article. It addresses the fates of Martok and Gowron:

Spoiler

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Martok

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by dwmarch

[benteen]

I guess I can't change it now but I edited my post about a potential spoiler.  My apologies on that.

Edited February 25, 2020 by benteen

[Florinaldo]

On 2/23/2020 at 11:06 PM, tennisgurl said:

I know that Patrick Stewart said that one of the reasons he used a classy British accent to play the very French Picard was because he said his French accent sounded silly, but I had no clue how right he was!

On the other hand, his regular French is not silly; it is simply atrocious, as witnessed by the few lines he spoke to his dog in the first episodes. Perhaps PS is aware of the comments that have been published online and decided to show us all: "They think I sound bad speaking French? Let me out-Clouseau Peter Sellers and see what they think now!".

The series' writing team seems to rely heavily on surrogate or putative parent-offspring relationships: the twins have Maddox, their false holographic parents and perhaps a bit of Data; Icheb had Seven; Picard has Elnor (who previously had the sisterhood) and he is eventually going to meet Hugh, whom he sort of fathered by leading him to asserting his individuality (and "generously" deciding not to infect him with a virus that would destroy the collective). I do hope Hugh does not get the Icheb treatment though.

Elnor is a very enjoyable, especially when totally awkward (his little Arguardiente pose), but I wonder how long his "absolute candor" training can resist the harsh reality of the real world outside of Vashti. BTW the actor was on this week's installement of "The Ready Room"; his exchange with Wheaton (whose fanboying schtick was less annoying than usual) was very nice as they discussed parallels between their experiences on their respective ST iterations. That aftershow seems to be readily available in the US. In Canada it can be found here; you have to scoll hrough the numerous videos to finds each installment. Come to think of it, Picard was also a father figure to Wesley.

On 2/20/2020 at 9:56 PM, Prower said:

Also great job, Seven, resorting to murdering your 'son' instead of disabling whatever was preventing beaming and getting him out of there.

It looked as if Icheb had been worked over rather extensively; blood and other wounds indicated that a number of parts have been taken out. We have seen Borgs die in previous series when injured severely enough (and at least once the others took some useful parts out of the fallen).

Edited February 25, 2020 by Florinaldo

[Llywela]

30 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

his exchange with Wheaton (whose fanboying schtick was less annoying than usual) was very nice as they discussed parallels between their experiences on their respective ST iterations. That aftershow seems to be readily available in the US. In Canada it can be found here; you have to scoll hrough the numerous videos to finds each installment. C

Just to note that international viewers can access Wil Wheaton's aftershow The Ready Room via the official Star Trek facebook page, as there is no regional encoding on the videos there. I haven't seen all of them, but enjoyed the interviews with Evan Evagora this week and Santiago Cabrera last week.

We didn't get to see much of Elnor in this episode, but a repeated character note through the episode was his desire to be included, he was disappointed about being left out of silly little things like getting spam ads or dressing up - and we saw last week that he has grown up excluded from wider society because of being Qowat Milat, while also being excluded from the Qowat Milat because of being a boy, so I thought that was an interesting little facet to give to his character from the off, to make him more than just the stoic warrior who always tells the truth. Like, sure, he's been taught to always tell the truth and doesn't really know how to lie...but when he sees everyone else preparing to go undercover and taking on new personas to do so, he isn't horrified by the lie, he is delighted and wants to play too!

It was also cute that instead of devoting any time to setting up a new persona for him and trying to teach him how it should be acted, they just said, "Fine, you can dress up as Rios, since Rios is being a Facer today!"

[Ottis]

On 2/21/2020 at 8:51 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

Didn't see Agnes' betrayal of Maddox coming. I guess she's spying for Commander Oh.

Yes, but also, she seems to have been told that something will happen in the future that has to be stopped, and as a result killed her friend. So whatever she has been told must be horrible. And I would guess is a lie, and she is being duped as well, probably by Oh/Tal Shiar. 

I was not feeling the Picard humor and the heist giggles. This show needs to decide on its tone. You can get away with a quip like Elnor noting he didn't get an ad as they approach Freecloud. That was a chuckle. Having PS ham it up as some kind of theatrical villain was way too much.

At first I didn't care for the California-girl talking Seven of Nine. Too different from what we saw on Voyager. But after a while it grew on me, and I could see that perhaps she reverts more to Annika and who she was as time goes on. I *did* love her going back down to shoot the bad guy and hide it from Picard.

19 hours ago, benteen said:

The villain reminded me a lot of Marina Sirtis.

Yes. Like others, I was looking closely to see if that was somehow her at first. Not intentional, I guess.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Ottis

[Florinaldo]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

but when he sees everyone else preparing to go undercover and taking on new personas to do so, he isn't horrified by the lie, he is delighted and wants to play too!

Yes, he is still the "babe in the woods" character, marveling at each new delightful discovery. A figure of the innocent, a bit like Icheb and Hugh were when first introduced.

Will he keep being delghted by his discoveries when he encounters instances of betrayal and cruelty, unavoidable realities in any society, even in the idealised ST future.

[dwmarch]

8 hours ago, Ottis said:

Yes, but also, she seems to have been told that something will happen in the future that has to be stopped, and as a result killed her friend. So whatever she has been told must be horrible. And I would guess is a lie, and she is being duped as well, probably by Oh/Tal Shiar. 

I have been watching Youtube reviews by The Critical Drinker (thus far he hates the show) and he uses a lot of promo footage in his reviews. A moment flashed by that addressed this. I'll spoiler code it because it hasn't come up yet.

Spoiler

There is a half-second long shot of Jurati getting grabbed about the face by Commodore Oh in what I can only assume is a forced mind-meld. We know from Enterprise (and probably other sources but "In A Mirror Darkly" was a great example) that people can be compelled to do things they wouldn't otherwise do when under the influence of a mind meld, even if they didn't go into it willingly.

This moment also answers whether Oh is Vulcan or Romulan unless this show wishes to establish Romulans with Vulcan psy-talents, which they certainly could do. I mean, they've already given us Irish Romulans so why not? Cheeky feckers.

 

[paigow]

28 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

Yes, he is still the "babe in the woods" character, marveling at each new delightful discovery. A figure of the innocent, a bit like Icheb and Hugh were when first introduced.

Will he keep being delghted by his discoveries when he encounters instances of betrayal and cruelty, unavoidable realities in any society, even in the idealised ST future

 Elnor seems to have a moral code that allows him to punish cruel people - e.g. Senator - and forgive some betrayers - e.g. Picard - without a lot of angst. Vashti is a lot like Jakku...so most places could not be much worse.,..

[HotRats2112]

12 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Cheeky feckers.

  Hide contents

 

 

Funny.  He doesn't look Romunlan. 

[Ottis]

18 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I have been watching Youtube reviews by The Critical Drinker (thus far he hates the show) and he uses a lot of promo footage in his reviews. A moment flashed by that addressed this. I'll spoiler code it because it hasn't come up yet.

  Hide contents

There is a half-second long shot of Jurati getting grabbed about the face by Commodore Oh in what I can only assume is a forced mind-meld. We know from Enterprise (and probably other sources but "In A Mirror Darkly" was a great example) that people can be compelled to do things they wouldn't otherwise do when under the influence of a mind meld, even if they didn't go into it willingly.

This moment also answers whether Oh is Vulcan or Romulan unless this show wishes to establish Romulans with Vulcan psy-talents, which they certainly could do. I mean, they've already given us Irish Romulans so why not? Cheeky feckers.

 

But if all that is compelling her to kill her friend is a forced (spoiler), why would Agnes say, “I wish you knew what I know?” There is no reason to say that, if she is simply being mentally coerced. She has to believe something bad is coming unless she acts, and while a (spoiler) may have placed that belief in her head, that’s really unnecessarily convoluted. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Ottis

[Llywela]

I'll just say this: it is a really bad idea to turn to Youtube reviews for either an assessment of the show (or any show, really) or theories about what is likely to happen - most of what those dudes say is easily disproved rubbish, and they spew hatred because that's what generates clicks, which gives them income (the longer the better, because that's what gets attention), so you aren't getting fair and frank assessment or even honest opinion, it is just hate for the sake of hate.

Spoiler

The mind-meld on Jurati was in one of the trailers and I've seen it widely discussed elsewhere - most likely took place during her interview with Oh, so before Maddox's murder the general feeling was that she had been recruited, whether consciously or not, into spying on Picard's mission. Her killing of Maddox makes it clear that she knows full well what she is doing, the big question now is why.

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Llywela

[Florinaldo]

On 2/25/2020 at 8:12 PM, paigow said:

Elnor seems to have a moral code that allows him to punish cruel people - e.g. Senator - and forgive some betrayers - e.g. Picard - without a lot of angst.

I did not get that he killed the ex-Senator because the guy was being cruel, but mostly because that big man was (unfairly) fighting an old man to whom Elnor had decided to pledge his sword.

As for Picard's betrayal, considering how strongly attached young Elnor was to him, it comes as no surprise that he accepted it and perhaps even forgave it. He should encounter real instances of betrayal and cruelty on other planets, where some races enslave or slaughter other beings or use them for fun of for their selfish purposes. Will his "absolute candor" training have prepared him for it? Vashti may have looked grim, but certainly not to the extent of some of the bleak societies that have been portrayed previously int the ST-verse.

[marinw]

Those pop-up holgram ads are a nice bit of meta about my own pet peeve: those horrbile ads that pop up at the bottom of the screen on CTV Sci-Fi.