S08.E09: Green Arrow & The Canaries

[scarynikki12]

Quote

It's the year 2040 in Star City and Mia Queen has everything she could have ever wanted.

 

 

[mtlchick]

Well, it was better than I expected, but it needs more William.  Laurel is coming off as a damn hypocrite, but Dinah trying to find out why she never existed in the new world and William getting snatched is enough for me to see more.

 

One final round next week.  SADNESS!

[insomniadreams88]

Sorry, but this is a spinoff I definitely don't need. Unless it's completely changed. I didn't hate it, but I also didn't see anything that made me go, "yes, give me more ASAP." Give me FTA with, at most, recurring Canaries (and even then, not necessarily always Laurel and Dinah). 

Needed a lot more Mia/William. And that ending makes me think that at the most, BL would be recurring in a spinoff series and Mia might be searching for him for at least part of the season. Also needed more Connor. And Zoe. 

Maybe Oliver decided to give Felicity a Canary-free life by sending Dinah to the future to be in SC when it went to hell again and knew Laurel would follow and figured they could be helpful then and his wife could live in peace at least for a little while. 

(Also, if the spinoff is ordered, it should be interesting to see if KC and KM continue to only promote their stuff on social media. I glanced at their tweets tonight and was really just so amused. Their preferences are so obvious.) 

Edited January 22, 2020 by insomniadreams88

[scarynikki12]

I think I legit like Dinah now. At a minimum this was a great episode for her and I’m happy to see her figure out what happened to her.

I like that Mia getting her memories back was presented as cruel even though she’s handling it well. They brought on a ton of heartache and that can’t be ignored. 

I think this was supposed to be a good episode for Siren but it really wasn’t. At least for me. She’s still an ass and I’m rooting for her to be the Obligatory Season 1 Death. 

Future Team Arrow is still my number 1 and I hope to see all of them in the series. 

[Primal Slayer]

Overall I enjoyed it. Fairly fresh-ish for Arrow.

Loved me getting all that Laurel, she got to play with different aspects of herself though it's boring to give us Crisis and.....nothing really seems to have changed for her? Still usual ol'E2 Laurel? Couldn't come up with a decent amalgamation? Though as usual....she needs to work on her chill. Even as a good guy she likes to just jump into the thick of it. I wonder if she spent some time with the Legends and how they came across 2041 Star City blowing up...and why Sara and the team didnt all try to take it on. Or they decided "cant fix it" and Laurel being Laurel is all "I'll secretly take off to fix it myself!"

Crisis really did a favor for Dinah, she may have been erased from Earth Prime (or is it just the future?) but the more mellow Dinah certainly works better than the one we had. Of course they gave her the clock tower to live in lol.

New!Mia is interesting...I liked her for the most part but it's just weird thinking that Felicity would have raised her in the Queen mansion and that she'd be social lite. Seems like something Felicity would hate. Though maybe she was happy with Mia embracing that part of life given everything that she knows happened originally.

Can we seriously stop with Cisco replicating peoples powers? It's such a cop out and they dont even try to make sense of it. 

Of COURSE JJ has his memories returned...now the only question is...who is that person who did that and where did they get that device? Was it Laurels? Did Cisco hand them out like candy?

Really enjoyed the dynamic between the 3, gave me Charmed vibes and hope we get a series with the 3 of them. Mostly cause I hate myself and need more Laurel in my life even if they probably do things that will piss me off for another 7 years .

[apinknightmare]

I liked Dinah for the first time...maybe ever? Laurel was annoying. 

I'm glad Mia got to live the life Oliver wanted for her for a couple of decades. Godspeed girl, it's nothing but misery from here on out!

[Josh371982]

Enjoyed it BUT I need More William Connor and Zoe. JJ getting his memories back at the end gives me hope for no goddamm icky love triangle but I do wonder who gave him the memories. I actually found myself wanting more but I wanted a FTA Show not Mia with Laurel and Dinah. Surprised that I liked Dinah for the first time in a LONG Time. ATEOTD, give more of The Olicity Princess that was Promised and way more William Connor and Zoe if this is greenlit for series 

[ICantDoThatDave]

The fight choreography is hilarious. If I ever get into a fight with some 250 lb goons I'll have to remember I just need to wave a small baton at them to make them flip completely over in the air.

[Primal Slayer]

If we get a show, it'll be interesting to see what all they have to do with the pilot to recap this episode and everything that went down. 

But please stop it with "Everyone can be Black Canary and everyone can be Deathstroke". It wasn't the best part of Buffy post-Chosen and it isn't the best part of Arrow. 

[Lady Calypso]

Well...it actually wasn't bad. I'm surprised that I enjoyed some aspects, especially the Dinah stuff. 

To start off, mellow Dinah is ten times more tolerable than the Dinah we've had for three seasons. So that was very helpful for me. I'm actually intrigued with her figuring out what this means, now that she doesn't technically exist.

Laurel was....more abrasive than usual. Not enough snark, too much bitch. She needs to learn to chill out. I like snarky Laurel.

Mia's stuff was great. I feel bad that she got forced into memories that she didn't want. She'll probably be having a bit of an identity crisis, with two sets of memories. 

Not enough William. Not enough Connor. Not enough Zoe. 

Here's the other issue I'm running into: do I see this as an actual series? No, honestly, I don't. It was good for a single episode, but am I interested in a full series? No, I am not. I know it's possible, and that they can do a lot with a series, but this backdoor pilot didn't convince me to want the spinoff to happen. And that's a damn shame.

But...it's POSSIBLE for me to root for the series, should it be picked up. They just need to add more Future Team Arrow. They've convinced me that I'd be fine with Dinah and Laurel's parts in the series (Dinah, especially, was one that I had zero expectations for), but Mia's family and friends is what I'm also interested in. So I'm reluctantly opening up my mind to the possibility of more...as long as they do some tweaking. What they did with this backdoor pilot was better than I expected (granted, I had LOOOOOOOW expectations).

But they needed to do a better job at making me WANT the spinoff. They got me halfway with having me accept the spinoff, should it be picked up. But now, make me want to watch it.

[Chris24601]

Well, Laurel was annoying and seemed to take perverse delight in wrecking Mia’s life (pushing Mia blame her fiancé because he must be exactly the same while everyone else is completely different was idiotic).

Dinah was more tolerable, but I kept wishing for William to be brought in to do tech support, but nope; Dinah’s apparently intended to be their tech person.

Mia, William, Connor and Zoe are probably the only parts that had any interest for me. Since we’re giving JJ his villain memories back, I’d gladly trade both Canaries for William (rescue him in the pilot), Connor and Zoe getting their pre-Crisis memories back and working to keep their city from becoming like that alternate timeline.

[tennisgurl]

Ugh I hate that I keep missing the live feed! Now I have to do my bird watching later! Mayhap's in...2040?!?!? 

I mean, no it’ll be later tonight or tomorrow I assume. 

[sugarbaker design]

So who is the she the disgruntled boyfriend mentioned?

[Primal Slayer]

I think if they had the time to properly do this and not rush certain things (Mia's awakening) it would've been even stronger. Seeing more of Post-Crisis Mia as sort of a Pre-Slayer Buffy for majority of the episode would've been fun and then have it end with her getting her memories back and going into a new mixed BlackStar mode for a 2-part premiere. 

[quarks]

Definitely better than I expected it to be.

See what happens when you spend more money on extras and sets, Berlanti?????

[way2interested]

3 minutes ago, quarks said:

See what happens when you spend more money on extras and sets, Berlanti?????

He listened to you right at the last minute for Arrow!

[statsgirl]

13 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

. Here's the other issue I'm running into: do I see this as an actual series? No, honestly, I don't. It was good for a single episode, but am I interested in a full series? No, I am not. I know it's possible, and that they can do a lot with a series, but this backdoor pilot didn't convince me to want the spinoff to happen. And that's a damn shame.

But...it's POSSIBLE for me to root for the series, should it be picked up.[snip]But they needed to do a better job at making me WANT the spinoff. They got me halfway with having me accept the spinoff, should it be picked up. But now, make me want to watch it.

And that's the 10 million dollar question.

There were some good things, and some bad things.

Dinah was a winner.  JH had a beautiful singing voice so that was a treat. She was also a lot more empathic and thoughtful with her "tough chick" persona gone.  Calling her bar "Fishnets" was a terrible joke.

Mia was ... okay.  Nothing that really made me want to watch the show but nothing that really turned me off. The anvils of her new life compared to Oliver pre-Gambit were so heavy.

It astounds me that the CW still can't write for Katie Cassidy. She's best as the snarky, waspish anti-hero but as @apinknightmare said in the live posting thread, that works for a secondary character but it's too much for a primary character. Maybe they're trying too hard.

I want more William. No, I need more William, Ben Lewis is charming and funny and I need more of that on this show.  JJ was adequate, Connor was "blink and you miss him". So was Bianca for all that the episode was supposed to be about her kidnapping. Trevor was a milquetoast villain.

Costumes were good.  Eye makeup, hit and miss. Mostly miss.

Why did the paparazzi ask Mia what her father thinks of her engagement? He died in her childhood.

1 minute ago, sugarbaker design said:

So who is the she the disgruntled boyfriend mentioned?

I assume she's The Big Bad if it gets picked up. It's supposed to keep us guessing.

[quarks]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

He listened to you right at the last minute for Arrow!

I refuse to get my hopes up for next week.

[Josh371982]

7 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

And that's the 10 million dollar question.

There were some good things, and some bad things.

Dinah was a winner.  JH had a beautiful singing voice so that was a treat. She was also a lot more empathic and thoughtful with her "tough chick" persona gone.  Calling her bar "Fishnets" was a terrible joke.

Mia was ... okay.  Nothing that really made me want to watch the show but nothing that really turned me off. The anvils of her new life compared to Oliver pre-Gambit were so heavy.

It astounds me that the CW still can't write for Katie Cassidy. She's best as the snarky, waspish anti-hero but as @apinknightmare said in the live posting thread, that works for a secondary character but it's too much for a primary character. Maybe they're trying too hard.

I want more William. No, I need more William, Ben Lewis is charming and funny and I need more of that on this show.  JJ was adequate, Connor was "blink and you miss him". So was Bianca for all that the episode was supposed to be about her kidnapping. Trevor was a milquetoast villain.

Costumes were good.  Eye makeup, hit and miss. Mostly miss.

Why did the paparazzi ask Mia what her father thinks of her engagement? He died in her childhood.

I assume she's The Big Bad if it gets picked up. It's supposed to keep us guessing.

Well Trev had a Tattoo of the what the Symbol on the Hozen is so I wonder....  could be Emiko in the new Timeline or they go with Sara Diggle being a Villian? Someone wanted JJ to remember the scumbag he was in the orginal timeline 

[way2interested]

16 minutes ago, quarks said:

I refuse to get my hopes up for next week.

Lol, that's why I said this was the last minute. No chance for the finale.

[apinknightmare]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Why did the paparazzi ask Mia what her father thinks of her engagement? He died in her childhood.

DID HE?!?!

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by apinknightmare

[Lantern7]

I reckon we might need to stop with the Arrowverse shows. I mean, I liked the backdoor pilot (which sounds dirty, like a sex position only Ralph Dibny can perform), but I reckon the Arrowverse (Flashverse? CWDCverse? Oliver is dead, after all) has the same potential for oversaturation and diminishing returns that hangs over MCU. Arrow ends, Green Arrow & The Canaries begins, and we got another new series in Stargirl. Granted, I think that's online first before TV, but the expansion is still going on.

Welcome to Star City 2040! There is no crime!! Uggghhh . . . why not just say "There hasn't been a massive calamity since Oliver Queen first came back from the dead"? Mia Queen is living her best life, but then Laurel and Dinah have to fuck things up. Oh, and Laurel has a portable version of the "Crisis" front page that hung over Barry Allen's head, portending the world going to crap. Luckily for us, Mia turns back into the cage fighting kicker of ass, and she and the other two channel the Drew/Cameron/Lucy era Charlie's Angels. Seriously . . . "Who are you bitches?!?" Cue explosion. Cut to the editors watching the footage and creaming themselves. And I wouldn't blame them. And it wasn't an awful "serious" version of "Sirens of Spacetime" from Legends of Tomorrow last season. LoT remains the current standard of a "team" series, but GA&TC could challenge them. I still think Auntie Sara could wreck all three ladies inside of ten minutes.

Rene is a successful mayor. Hey, why the fuck not?!? Maybe he remarries, they have a son, and he names him Quentin. "Quentin H. Ramirez." Doable, yes?

Can't believe it all ends next week. *sigh*

 

[Cthulhudrew]

I don't even like most of these characters, and I'm still mad that once again- like during Flashpoint- the writers have basically rebooted the characters that people have been watching for over a season and a half and seem to expect that audiences will love them just the same. Yes, two of them got memories back this episode (and presumably, others will too; hopefully at least William) but dangit, just because they look the same, talk the same, doesn't make them the same characters. It's a real f-you to viewers, IMO.

Also, I'm still confused about the post-Crisis universe. We've seen other planets, yet I still keep seeing characters remarking that there is no multiverse anymore. Are all those other Earths just identical planets in identical Milky Way galaxies elsewhere in the same universe now?

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Also, I'm still confused about the post-Crisis universe. We've seen other planets, yet I still keep seeing characters remarking that there is no multiverse anymore. Are all those other Earths just identical planets in identical Milky Way galaxies elsewhere in the same universe now?

I'm pretty sure MG said that there's still a multiverse but the Earth Prime heroes don't know that (yet).

[Primal Slayer]

41 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It astounds me that the CW still can't write for Katie Cassidy. She's best as the snarky, waspish anti-hero but as @apinknightmare said in the live posting thread, that works for a secondary character but it's too much for a primary character. Maybe they're trying too hard.

I think her snark worked for the most part but yeah, we didn't need as much as we got. I look at her as Cordelia, once they moved her to Angel, she was still snarky but they added more humanity to her character so as long as they go a similar route which they seemed to do by end of the episode, I think it'll be fine. 

[lemotomato]

The ruined any chance of me being interested in the spinoff when they set it up with E2 LL mindraping Mia and ruining her life. And then have her spend the rest of the episode being an asshole and dialing up her hypocrisy, smugness, and condescension to 11. 

The best parts of the episode were the ones with Mia and the next generation characters. It was great to see them in a non-gloom-and-doom setting. William should have been the one to talk to Mia about about what Oliver would've wanted for her, since he actually knew what Oliver-the-dad was like. But of course the show threw away an opportunity to have genuine and earned character moments for forced "girl bonding" with a woman who didn't know Oliver at all.

I hope for Kat's sake this doesn't go to series. She can do better than getting stuck on a show that thrives on misery porn for its actual heroes while letting former contract killers put them down and tell them they're hero-ing wrong.

[insomniadreams88]

I generally like E2 Laurel, but how many times can someone call her a hero and she remark she’s new to the feelings thing? It’s gotten ridiculous. 

[BkWurm1]

I didn't hate it but I shouted a few times at the screen over what a hypocrite Laurel was and how badly she (and the show) was trying to rewrite history. 

Oh, so she was pretending to be a stone cold murderer that killed for sport and convenience and cute running shoes?  And it was because that was easier than not murdering for fun and profit?  What the hell?  How about just owning that she woke up to how wrong it all was and worked to become a better person? 

How could Laurel berate Mia for not believing JJ was an innate killer "cause people don't change" while expecting everyone to see her not as the thug for hire she was for a decade but the "hero" she was for MAYBE a year?  And Oliver's whole journey to becoming the Green Arrow was about how much he DID change.  The mixed messages were giving me whiplash.  

I'm not opposed to JJ being corrupted but my heart breaks for Diggle and Lyla since they got it right with him this time but still will probably lose him somehow now thanks to some overreaching asshat (Cisco) who played god and thought it was a good idea to let anyone decide who got their memories back. and not even securing the tech from the bad guys!   

I laughed when Mia was given Felicity's engagement ring.  That thing had bad mojo, lol.  I knew they wouldn't last the moment I saw it.  I also sorely missed the chemistry between Mia and Connor. It was there in buckets even in their very brief scene together.  I felt nothing between Mia and JJ except for Mia's sorrow after they broke up.  But that was when he was no longer in the room, lol.  

I cringed hard a few times during the fight scenes, specifically at the freeze frames and anytime it was clear it was KC doing the fighting rather than her stunt double.  I swear i have never ever noticed how slow and stilted her moves were before.  Has she always been like that?  Dina and Mia were fine but yeah, lets chill a bit during fights and stunts.  Let them be cool on their own, not because of the camera shots screaming PAY ATTENTION TO HOW COOL WE ARE!

There was a huge lack of William in this.  I felt myself relax every time we saw him.  Willam should be tech.  Not Dinah.  I don't care what "tricks" she claims she picked up as Police Captain.  Tricks don't make you a skilled hacker and they sure as hell don't make you skilled in the technology of twenty years in the future.  Such BS. 

I was happy to see Zoe alive.  She didn't deserve to be dead even if her father was an ass.  I enjoyed Dinah here.  (And loved her apartment) Not just because she was written as much more mellow but because I felt like she'd finally taken the time to reflect on the mistakes she had made before and owned up to them as opposed to when we had last seen her where it felt like she just ignored her part in breaking up the team and all the bad blood between them.  Like she felt being sent to the future was part of her penance.  And that worked for me.  

What didn't work was the randomized, huh, I'm in the future now and don't seem to exist in the past, oh well.  I won't even try to get home or fix it.  I guess that's kind of a small thing compared to the hypocrisy of how they want to write Laurel.  

The frustrating thing with Laurel is I don't dislike BS.  I just hate when the show pretends Laurel's past as a villain was a mere blip compared to her time as a hero.  She lost her Earth so she's had something really hard to deal with, but it had nothing to do with her being a "hero" that she suffered unless you count surviving the end of the world because she was in the right place all because she put on a mask?  She didn't sacrifice or lose anything because she was a hero.  Even Quentin's death wasn't because she was a "hero" but because she threw in with the villain again and again.  It grates that things she suffered because of her own terrible and evil choices gets blamed on her sacrificing for the mask. DON'T REWRITE HISTORY.  And don't claim to be like Oliver or know a tenth of what he sacrificed every day when he went out to save his city. 

I watched the episode thinking I wouldn't bother if the spin off happens but then they went and kidnapped William and crap, I'm in.  

I think if the show stopped trying to make Laurel the leader of this group or trying to make her purely good ignoring the snark and owning her edge that actually made her interesting and amusing, then the show will be better. Assuming of course that we get waaaaaaaay more of the NTA in the mix.  I'm firmly invested in Mia's life (and William's) so if they can adjust to favor what worked in the pilot, I think it could work. 

One last observation, the Green Arrow statue Mia was looking at has Oliver in a full beard (one he only had while in jail) and he looked a lot older than when he died.  Just bad sculpting again or did he not die when we thought he did?

Edited January 22, 2020 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Just bad sculpting again or did he not die when we thought he did?

Considering Laurel's looked like it belonged propped up in an easter basket, I'm going to go with bad sculpting. 

[Cthulhudrew]

14 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

One last observation, the Green Arrow statue Mia was looking at has Oliver in a full beard (one he only had while in jail) and he looked a lot older than when he died.  Just bad sculpting again or did he not die when we thought he did?

(Insert your favorite Alicia Masters blind sculptress joke here)

[Chaser]

Only able to catch clips here and here so I don’t have fully formed thoughts.

I will say that 2040s fashion feels very 80s. The clips I saw of Laurel and Mia weren’t great. Laurel was mean and bitchy. Not in a fun snarky either. Dinah was kind of a 180. Not in a bad way. 

I couldn’t find much on William and that made me sad. Loved the William and Mia. 

All I got right now. 

[scarynikki12]

16 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I enjoyed Dinah here.  (And loved her apartment) Not just because she was written as much more mellow but because I felt like she'd finally taken the time to reflect on the mistakes she had made before and owned up to them as opposed to when we had last seen her where it felt like she just ignored her part in breaking up the team and all the bad blood between them.  Like she felt being sent to the future was part of her penance.  And that worked for me.  

Agreed. She mentioned seeing this as a fresh start, which may just be a coping mechanism, but shows tremendous character growth.

16 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

What didn't work was the randomized, huh, I'm in the future now and don't seem to exist in the past, oh well.  I won't even try to get home or fix it. 

I saw that as Dinah not having resources and knowing she had to adapt quickly. She said that there's no record of Dinah Drake so she may have either assumed that none of her contacts would know who she was or did contact some of them and found out the hard way that the record of her no longer exists. Of course the latter would raise more questions as I imagine Diggle and Rene would still want to help her even if they didn't believe her.

[dmeets]

I liked that JJ appeared to be genuinely good in the new universe and hate that he apparently got mindfucked into being evil again.

[Simba122504]

Someone explain this.  Your father rewrites history and gives you a good life. Someone finds you and gives you the memories of a life you no longer lived.  How will any of those memories have an affect on you personally since you have no connection to that life?  You won't get your fighting skills back. You won't turn evil again because of erased memories. It's basically a dead life you lived before your life was rewritten .

[Primal Slayer]

37 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

Someone explain this.  Your father rewrites history and gives you a good life. Someone finds you and gives you the memories of a life you no longer lived.  How will any of those memories have an affect on you personally since you have no connection to that life?  You won't get your fighting skills back. You won't turn evil again because of erased memories. It's basically a dead life you lived before your life was rewritten .

For Mia it's easy though it for sure turning JJ totally evil again....not sure. It depends on how much he lets it influence him...they'll probably go with "this reality is fake! and a lie!"

It is amazing though how unafraid they are to seemingly make a 1st season big bad into a female, something they were never able to do during 8 seasons of Arrow...well I guess Emiko? But she was a "big" bad for what seemed like all of 3 episodes. 

[thuganomics85]

Ah, the penultimate episode of "Arrow", but really, it was just a backdoor pilot for the likely Mia, Laurel, and Dinah spin-off.  Yay?

Granted, if it does happen, I won't even pretend that I won't watch at least a few episodes, since these D.C. shows are apparently my catnip, but I wasn't all that impressed here.  Had a few moments that were decent and I'm curious to see who the main baddie will be (my guess?  There is a reason they had Mia mention that Helena/Huntress "disappeared"), but I mainly found this to be dull.

Of course, part of the problem was that this episode decided to move Laurel away from being a snarkbot; something Katie Cassidy has fun with; and just made her an asshole for the majority of it.  I honestly can't figure out why this franchise struggles so hard with this character's so-called "redemption."  I just can't figure out why I'm suppose to like her.  If they were going for a more shades of grey/anti-hero thing, that would have been fine, but I feel like they really want me to buy her as a hero now, but she's just a jerk, who only ever shows remorse after someone calls her out on her shit.  Not exactly a redeeming quality for me.

On the flip side, I'm with everyone that thought Dinah... was actually kind of good, here?  She just seemed more fun and entertaining this go-around, and Juliana Harkavy seems to be more comfortable acting out those traits compared to the rigid, "hard as nails" police captain.  Who knew?!

Curious to see how Mia is going to handle being the Green Arrow now.  It certainly ain't easy!

I kind of liked the idea of J.J. becoming good thanks to post-Crisis, but they already did away with that, I see.

At least Zoe is alive again.  Hope we get more of her.  And William.  He is easily the best character out of the new blood.

We'll see how this goes, I guess.  My initial reaction isn't filled with optimism, but, hey, I'm getting ready to watch Legends of Tomorrow next, and that show managed to make Stalker Ray Palmer and Leonard Snart's sidekick two of my favorite characters in the Arrowverse, so anything is possible!

[Simba122504]

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

For Mia it's easy though it for sure turning JJ totally evil again....not sure. It depends on how much he lets it influence him...they'll probably go with "this reality is fake! and a lie!"

It is amazing though how unafraid they are to seemingly make a 1st season big bad into a female, something they were never able to do during 8 seasons of Arrow...well I guess Emiko? But she was a "big" bad for what seemed like all of 3 episodes. 

Mia didn’t know this other life ever existed because this version of her never lived it. It never existed in Mia’s 2.0 life. It’s a dead life which she has zero connections to. She was literally reborn. Same as JJ whatever happens. Nobody in the new post Crisis Star City lived that other version. Like the old saying goes, “You cannot miss something you never had.” I know it’s a comic book series but we question those too. 😂 

[CabotCove]

Quote

It's the year 2040 in Star City and Mia Queen has everything she could have ever wanted.

Ha. I guess they have already forgotten about Oliver and Felicity...they got their new money makers now.

Quote

Dinah was more tolerable, but I kept wishing for William to be brought in to do tech support, but nope; Dinah’s apparently intended to be their tech person.

Wouldnt make much sense to have girl power " Birds of Prey" lite team, and the tech one is a man, a pretty vital role. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[Velocity23]

39 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

Ha. I guess they have already forgotten about Oliver and Felicity...they got their new money makers now.

They forgotten about most of the grown-ups honestly, just like it seem Star City 2020 forgot about Canaries. 

They really had the chance to erase the messy Lance sisters and Oliver mess and they still pushed that thing. And made it gross when they had Laurel brought up the fact to Mia a version of her dated her dad.

[Featherhat]

Some initial thoughts as I process. I agree with everyone, a good Dinah episode, who knew such a thing was even possible anymore? They realised they had to back away from her hypocrisy and judgemental attitude and literally had Dinah say she took the opportunity to reboot herself into a chill bar owner/singer with an awesome loft. Not loving taking over the tech role that should be William's but gotta give her something to do I guess. 

Unfortunately the same cannot be said of Laurel. They doubled down on all of to unlikeable (to me) characteristics. It was less snark and more aggressive bitchiness and not giving a shit about other people. And seriously fuck off about JJ, Laurel you only get to be a "hero" because everyone else BUT you pushed you towards it and believed in you after you had done some awful things. Ugh, KC still can't play layers she takes the top note every time even when a softer reading would bring more depth to the character so the writers could go back to having fun with that instead of confusing "badass" and "hosebeast". Interestingly they also doubled down on anti Lauriver despite having the chance to change it a bit with everything (E2 and a universe reboot). All versions of Laurel need to let it go for their own sake. 

Liked new Mia and William a lot, more of their dynamic please they are adorable, that was sadly cut short even though with the kidnapping William is going to be involved in some capacity in the series. Mia "the family ring" as massively bad juju that should have been a sign things were going to go wrong. 

1 hour ago, CabotCove said:

Ha. I guess they have already forgotten about Oliver and Felicity...they got their new money makers now.

Oliver and Felicity are currently taking some well earned time together in a paradise dimension/afterlife (let me have this until next week!) and left Mia well loved, rich and with her brother which is about a billion times better than the shithole timeline she came from, slightly exaggerated episode descriptions aside. There weren't any Uncle John and Aunt Lyla moments either despite the engagement. But yeah a backdoor pilot inevitably concentrates on the characters they have going forward whilst the finale is oldcharacterspalooza on steroids, they haven't forgotten anyone. 

If it actually does go to series I will be checking it out but I'm going to need them to find a better version of Laurel and more William Zoe and Connor. How likely that's going to be is probably up in the air for a while. Kat and CB can do better but the industry is very fickle.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Featherhat

[CabotCove]

Quote

It astounds me that the CW still can't write for Katie Cassidy. She's best as the snarky, waspish anti-hero but as @APINKNIGHTMARE said in the live posting thread, that works for a secondary character but it's too much for a primary character. Maybe they're trying too hard.

That because Juliana's Dinah is their chosen definitive Black Canary, They already give her all the elements of Black Canary quietly and just seem to easily give her more to work with. The one they chose to be a Crisis Hero and Team Arrow member.  KC hasnt had a role in well, a long time.   Katie Cassidy's role and purpose in this tv universe is AIR. 

All they give her is the  bitchness [which i dont find funny], and the white hair. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[way2interested]

1 hour ago, CabotCove said:

Wouldnt make much sense to have girl power " Birds of Prey" lite team, and the tech one is a man, a pretty vital role. 

Eh, they already highlighted the importance of men in Mia's life (and not in a sexist way, just as another parallel to Oliver since a lot revolved around the relationships between the women in his wife like his mother, sister, Laurel, Felicity, Sara), might as well give them more to do other than in William's case be damseled. Plus, narratively makes way more sense and KM clearly loves working with BL the most in this cast.

16 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Liked new Mia and William a lot, more of their dynamic please they are adorable, that was sadly cut short even though with the kidnapping William is going to be involved in some capacity in the series.

I loved how it was the last scene filmed for Arrow EVER, and of course their scene was quick and cut short, sounds like Arrow XD. Yeah, I still loved the scene though and actually made me kind of sad that we might not ever see them again either.

[CabotCove]

Quote

On the flip side, I'm with everyone that thought Dinah... was actually kind of good, here?  She just seemed more fun and entertaining this go-around, and Juliana Harkavy seems to be more comfortable acting out those traits compared to the rigid, "hard as nails" police captain.  Who knew?!

Well, they didnt need to write her, so one-note frigid in the first place. Its just they just couldnt be bothered to flesh out the character for most of her time in Arrow and seems they wanted people to hate her. They were deliberately holding back her character. They didnt want to unlock the potential of this character.... Sure Juliana's Dinah gets more than Cassidy's Laurel but they never gave their 100%, the way i saw it. 

4 seasons on the show, and we dont even know if this character has a brother or sister...Its some BS that it takes the potential for a new money maker in spin off, for them to start caring  about these characters. They trashed and neglected her/them for most of Arrow's run.

Quote

They forgotten about most of the grown-ups honestly, just like it seem Star City 2020 forgot about Canaries. 

Yeah I know, i was kind of joking. Just laughing at the synopsis, "Mia has everything she could have ever wanted."....apparently that dont include her parents. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[Primal Slayer]

4 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Mia didn’t know this other life ever existed because this version of her never lived it. It never existed in Mia’s 2.0 life. It’s a dead life which she has zero connections to. She was literally reborn. Same as JJ whatever happens. Nobody in the new post Crisis Star City lived that other version. Like the old saying goes, “You cannot miss something you never had.” I know it’s a comic book series but we question those too. 😂 

You can miss something when you have literal memories of it come rushing back. It's essentially a past life.

[Velocity23]

23 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

Well, they didnt need to write her, so one-note frigid in the first place. Its just they just couldnt be bothered to flesh out the character for most of her time in Arrow and seems they wanted people to hate her. They were deliberately holding back her character. They didnt want to unlock the potential of this character.... Sure Juliana's Dinah gets more than Cassidy's Laurel but they never gave their 100%, the way i saw it. 

4 seasons on the show, and we dont even know if this character has a brother or sister...Its some BS that it takes the potential for a new money maker in spin off, for them to start caring  about these characters. They trashed and neglected her/them for most of Arrow's run.

Yeah I know, i was kind of joking. Just laughing at the synopsis, "Mia has everything she could have ever wanted."....apparently that dont include her parents. 

That is why this sound more like a brainwashed reality for me. Because the kids seemed to be cut off from any grown ups in their life. And suddenly this stranger in the form of LL shows up warning of troubles. 

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, CabotCove said:

Well, they didnt need to write her, so one-note frigid in the first place. Its just they just couldnt be bothered to flesh out the character for most of her time in Arrow and seems they wanted people to hate her. They were deliberately holding back her character. They didnt want to unlock the potential of this character.... Sure Juliana's Dinah gets more than Cassidy's Laurel but they never gave their 100%, the way i saw it. 

4 seasons on the show, and we dont even know if this character has a brother or sister...Its some BS that it takes the potential for a new money maker in spin off, for them to start caring  about these characters. They trashed and neglected her/them for most of Arrow's run.

She was fine in S5, I didn't really have a problem with her. Except I don't think she was in the original plan for the season but someone said "you need a new BC" and tada! A Dinah Drake complete with comic name and cry appeared so there's none of this "but she's only a Sara Lance" nonsense. They shoved her in and she suddenly joined the B team in the background. No one thought it was weird she had the exact name of their dead friend/daughter/ex wife etc. No way do I think LL's last words would ever be "don't let me be the last BC" but that's another discussion.

She did get some flashbacks of her very own and a tragic love interest, it's just unfortunate that they were in service of the appalling Civil War storyline where she and the rest were awful. Then last season they tried to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened as they so often do and she (and the others) ended up a frustrating hypocrite. It's worth noting that it took 4 years for Dig's brother to be onscreen and that character first came up in ep 3 as a big plot point, 7 seasons to get a step father, Felicity took 3 seasons to get a backstory and we only know the bare minimum about Roy's family. Arrow's not really big on this unless it can be a plot point.

She may have the trappings and markers of the Main Black Canary but so did Sara and she and her mask literally fell at LLs feet. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Featherhat

[shantown]

There were parts of this that weren't bad, but there were more parts that were absolutely awful. I don't want to do a sweeping gesture to everything Laurel for the awful, but... 

[Chris24601]

After sleeping on it, I’ve decided this could probably be a really good spin-off, so long as they give Laurel the “Poochie” treatment and restore at least William and Connor’s memories (even better would be Zoe too, just for the whole “you killed me” memories of JJ).

Laurel’s actual job of being the inciting incident is over. Mia’s gonna be Green Arrow to protect her father’s legacy and Danah’s decided to be this chill mentor-figure with a bar. Mission Accomplished. Exit stage right.

Frankly, I think they need a better selling point than just Girl Power. Supergirl, Batwoman, Star Girl and even Legends has that locked down.

The FTA setup had a female lead, minority love interest/field partner, gay big brother doing witty tech support and minority leader of an allied organization in the field combined with a real next generation/legacies feel to it.

On a more structural note; given that the hosen was linked to Mirikuru and we got both vials of greenish liquid and a Deathstroke it’s clear our Big Bad will be tied into that somehow. As season two was one of Arrow’s most solid seasons it makes  some sense to use ties to that for the spin-off.

[apinknightmare]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I didn't hate it but I shouted a few times at the screen over what a hypocrite Laurel was and how badly she (and the show) was trying to rewrite history. 

Oh, so she was pretending to be a stone cold murderer that killed for sport and convenience and cute running shoes?  And it was because that was easier than not murdering for fun and profit?  What the hell?  How about just owning that she woke up to how wrong it all was and worked to become a better person? 

How could Laurel berate Mia for not believing JJ was an innate killer "cause people don't change" while expecting everyone to see her not as the thug for hire she was for a decade but the "hero" she was for MAYBE a year?  And Oliver's whole journey to becoming the Green Arrow was about how much he DID change.  The mixed messages were giving me whiplash.  

Yeah, I thought this was Laurel's worst showing probably ever? She was nasty for absolutely no reason, nonsensical AND a hypocrite. I had to go back and look to see who wrote this one (I thought it was a solo effort by MG, but it was written by all the EPs, which doesn't inspire confidence, lol). 

[Starfish35]

I’m not even sure why I watched this, since I still haven’t watched the last two episodes of Crisis and last night’s Legends premiere.  Curiosity and the cat I guess.  

It wasn’t bad? I was actually surprised.  But I’m pretty much with everyone else here, that it needs more William and Connor, and less Laurel.   I would watch it (assuming it gets picked up) if it wasn’t for KC.  But at this point I’ve resigned myself to the apparent fact that KC will not be pried away from this role until every single Arrowverse show has shut down.  Lol.  

So...E2 Oliver cheated with E2 Sara too.  So was Sara pregnant with Oliver’s kid? 🤔

Edited January 22, 2020 by Starfish35