S08.E09: Green Arrow & The Canaries

[CabotCove]

Quote

Eh, they already highlighted the importance of men in Mia's life (and not in a sexist way, just as another parallel to Oliver since a lot revolved around the relationships between the women in his wife like his mother, sister, Laurel, Felicity, Sara), might as well give them more to do other than in William's case be damseled. Plus, narratively makes way more sense and KM clearly loves working with BL the most in this cast.

Yeah, nothing wrong with Mia having men in her life, William still has a role as her brother. It looks like the team's base of operations for the show will be Dinah's Clocktower/Apartment, so It will be kind of weird if William was hanging around there. Sorry, I got the vibe this was like a Charlie's angels/Birds of Prey like series, so the team is women. Other than Dinah if they need a second/junior tech person, there are options like maybe Bianca or Zoe being brought into the team. JMO.

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[Primal Slayer]

I think they should bring in William as the go to tech guy who can oversee them on missions when need be. It'd be a good storyline for all of them decieding who to bring back into the fold and who to allow to keep on living their happy go lucky lives. But of course everyone would end up remembering anyway.

[apinknightmare]

26 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

So...E2 Oliver cheated with E2 Sara too.  So was Sara pregnant with Oliver’s kid? 🤔

I'm curious about that too. I thought that Laurel had told Sara that she didn't have a version of her on E-2, and when she talked about her sister, she never referred to her by name. 

[CabotCove]

14 hours ago, Josh371982 said:

I actually found myself wanting more but I wanted a FTA Show not Mia with Laurel and Dinah. Surprised that I liked Dinah for the first time in a LONG Time. ATEOTD, give more of The Olicity Princess that was Promised and way more William Connor and Zoe if this is greenlit for series 

Yeah that idea is pretty much dead, they just put a lot of money in this backdoor pilot, way more than they usually for a regular Arrow episode. This pilot was the marketing tool to viewers/fans and to CW/WB. This was the pitch. GA&TC idea either work or its burst. This is the series that will either get green lit or its over.

Edited January 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[way2interested]

38 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

Yeah, nothing wrong with Mia having men in her life, William still has a role as her brother. It looks like the team's base of operations for the show will be Dinah's Clocktower/Apartment, so It will be kind of weird if William was hanging around there. Sorry, I got the vibe this was like a Charlie's angels/Birds of Prey like series, so the team is women. Other than Dinah if they need a second/junior tech person, there are options like maybe Bianca or Zoe being brought into the team. JMO.

Sure, but in Arrow, it's parent show, all of the women in Oliver's life ended up in the know or connected to the main plot (Felicity, Sara, Laurel, and Thea all ended up on the team at one point or another). It's not a stretch to want/think they'll do the same here, especially since one of the complaints from the writers' room back in Arrow was to write for characters who weren't in the know. Plus, again, it would make the most narrative sense to have the most tech person become the tech person, and make it easier for William and Mia to have their sibling scenes. Not to mention at some point everyone will remember anyway

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This is the series that will either get green lit or its over.

LoT begs to differ with its complete reboot in s2 after s1 backlash.

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

The FTA setup had a female lead, minority love interest/field partner, gay big brother doing witty tech support and minority leader of an allied organization in the field combined with a real next generation/legacies feel to it.

Well, when you put it like that ....

If they do pick up the show, they only need one Gambi/Diggle "I've been there, I'll help you surive" Yoda-like character. The role of the second Canary can be filled by Zoe.

They need to pick either Dinah or Laurel.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

LoT begs to differ with its complete reboot in s2 after s1 backlash.

To be fair, this was pretty much a complete reboot of the original Green Arrow Kids concept that was last season's backdoor pilot - shifting Mia from angry underground vigilante to socialite by day, vigilante by night; shifting from a single will they/won't they romance to a full on Love Triangle complete with two brothers (note to the CW; we really don't need this many attempts to bring back The Vampire Diaries, thanks); tinkering/resetting Dinah's character, and shifting the focus away from Team Arrow Kids to One Team Arrow Kid Plus Arrow Characters.

Not to mention a complete shift in lighting/framing - I mean, yes, some of that was thanks to the budget, but there was also a distinct choice to move away from a gritty, dark aesthetic to, hey, modern Vancouver really does have some lovely bright buildings/homes, doesn't it? 

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, quarks said:

To be fair, this was pretty much a complete reboot of the original Green Arrow Kids concept that was last season's backdoor pilot - shifting Mia from angry underground vigilante to socialite by day, vigilante by night; shifting from a single will they/won't they romance to a full on Love Triangle complete with two brothers (note to the CW; we really don't need this many attempts to bring back The Vampire Diaries, thanks); tinkering/resetting Dinah's character, and shifting the focus away from Team Arrow Kids to One Team Arrow Kid Plus Arrow Characters.

Oh, I just meant that in general a show's pilot in general doesn't necessarily dictate the full concept of what the show becomes, especially with this chunk of time before pilot to series, ex: LoT with its tone, Arrow with Felicity/testing new love interests in general, etc. I would wonder what would get tweaked from pilot to series.

Putting it like that, though, I wonder what kind of testing they got that involved the need for so many changes. Like, we're talking huge 180 in some of these cases.

[Chaser]

Watched the full episode this morning.

It wasn’t as bad as I thought it was going to be tbh. I actually enjoyed some on it and think it could be a good series with adjustment.

The positive: the personality changes to Mia and Dinah really worked for me. I like the softening of Mia. I love the socialite/secret identity plot. Mia/William is a win. Liked the Mia and JJ. I think that’s something that could be so interesting. Great twist. Shocked by Dinah but it’s a personality reset that works for me and I kind of get. I even found her random drop to the future. If that heart to heart with Mia had to be with a Canary I would have accepted Dinah instead of Laurel.

So negatives: I get that Canaries had to get a big part of the pilot but it needed so much more William. It needed some more heart and that’s the Queen sibling relationship. There was some really weak plotting but it’s Arrow, that’s always going to negative.

LAUREL LAUREL LAUREL. I saw some clips. I read the comments. She’s even worse. She was down right ugly this episode. It was so bad that when she was nice to Mia, I thought she was just manipulating her. There was already a lot of hypocrisy with the character but they tripled it. And all that understanding with Oliver? HUH? It was awful.

 

[tv echo]

I really, really wanted to like this episode, but I ended up with mixed feelings about it...

Like many of you, I liked Mia and Dinah, I wanted more of William, but I couldn't stand Laurel in this episode.

Before Crisis, I found E2 Laurel's snarkiness funny and honest and I kinda liked her. But for some reason, I thought her snark in this episode was less funny and more nasty. (Or maybe she's only tolerable in small doses.)

Also, this episode dialed up to obnoxious levels the two worst personality traits of both versions of Laurel - judgmental self-righteousness and hypocrisy. Her comments about JJ and Oliver (every Earth version is the same, blah, blah, blah) would be laughable if they weren't so hypocritical, not to mention contradicted by her own existence and Arrowverse canon. Isn't she herself different from E1 Laurel? Wasn't Earth-X Quentin different from E1 Quentin? Hasn't Laurel herself changed from villain to hero? And when Laurel called JJ a "homicidal maniac in another life," I literally laughed - projecting much? Really, I cheered at Mia's responses:

E2 Laurel: "You know I dated your dad, right? Well, a version of him anyway."
Mia: "Gross."
E2 Laurel: "My Oliver also went down on the Gambit, also cheated with my sister."
Mia: "Please stop talking."
E2 Laurel: "People are who they are, Mia, no matter what timeline, universe, or Earth, and that's not your fault."
Mia: "Was that supposed to be some kind of pep talk?"

Mia: "Okay, I just accused my fiance for nothing."
E2 Laurel: "Oh, he'll get over it. Or, you'll move on to someone who wasn't a homicidal maniac in another life. Win-win."
Mia: "Oh, frak you."

I also didn't like that E2 Laurel forced the old memories on Mia and didn't give her a choice. At least when E1 Laurel went to Ivy Town to get Oliver's help, she let Oliver & Felicity make the choice on their own whether or not to return to Star City. Here, E2 Laurel didn't give Mia a choice. Her forcing the old memories on Mia was just as bad as that guy at the end forcing JJ to remember his old evil life.

Having two Black Canaries is still ridiculous. Yes, there's now more than one Green Arrow, but only one Green Arrow per generation. Having two Black Canaries at the same time made it necessary for them to use their real names when talking to each other over the comms in the field (Laurel, Dinah, Mia), which is a security risk when they're hiding their true identities under masks. They need code names, but this episode avoided giving the two Canaries different monikers because, quite frankly, it seems like they're avoiding the issue.

But if they're going to stick with multiple Canaries, I think they should replace Laurel and Dinah with Zoe and Sara Diggle. I'm also all for Team Green Arrow including William.

Mia's future love triangle dilemma is the most predictable non-twist in this episode. She'll be conflicted because she has two competing memories of loving JJ and hating JJ, and vice versa with Connor. Also, JJ will now have competing memories of being evil and being good, of loving Mia and hating Mia. I think he'll do some bad stuff, but ultimately I think he'll try to be good and have his own redemption arc.  My guess is that Connor will step up as a hero when JJ does bad stuff and eventually become Mia's OTP.  (Alternatively, if they introduce an adult Sara Diggle, Connor could have a Barry-Iris thing going with his foster "sister" 😉 ). 

Nitpick: Some of the songs used during the chase and fight scenes were supposed to be edgy and cool, I guess, but I found them jarring and off-putting.

Edited January 22, 2020 by tv echo

[Josh371982]

18 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I really, really wanted to like this episode, but I ended up with mixed feelings about it...

Like many of you, I liked Mia and Dinah, I wanted more of William, but I couldn't stand Laurel in this episode.

Before Crisis, I found E2 Laurel's snarkiness funny and honest and I kinda liked her. But for some reason, I thought her snark in this episode was less funny and more nasty. (Or maybe she's only tolerable in small doses.)

Also, this episode dialed up to obnoxious levels the two worst personality traits of both versions of Laurel - judgmental self-righteousness and hypocrisy. Her comments about JJ and Oliver (every Earth version is the same, blah, blah, blah) would be laughable if they weren't so hypocritical, not to mention contradicted by her own existence and Arrowverse canon. Isn't she herself different from E1 Laurel? Wasn't Earth-X Quentin different from E1 Quentin? Hasn't Laurel herself changed from villain to hero? And when Laurel called JJ a "homicidal maniac in another life," I literally laughed - projecting much? Really, I cheered at Mia's responses:

E2 Laurel: "You know I dated your dad, right? Well, a version of him anyway."
Mia: "Gross."
E2 Laurel: "My Oliver also went down on the Gambit, also cheated with my sister."
Mia: "Please stop talking."
E2 Laurel: "People are who they are, Mia, no matter what timeline, universe, or Earth, and that's not your fault."
Mia: "Was that supposed to be some kind of pep talk?"

Mia: "Okay, I just accused my fiance for nothing."
E2 Laurel: "Oh, he'll get over it. Or, you'll move on to someone who wasn't a homicidal maniac in another life. Win-win."
Mia: "Oh, frak you."

I also didn't like that E2 Laurel forced the old memories on Mia and didn't give her a choice. At least when E1 Laurel went to Ivy Town to get Oliver's help, she let Oliver & Felicity make the choice on their own whether or not to return to Star City. Here, E2 Laurel didn't give Mia a choice. Her forcing the old memories on Mia was just as bad as that guy at the end forcing JJ to remember his old evil life.

Having two Black Canaries is still ridiculous. Yes, there's now more than one Green Arrow, but only one Green Arrow per generation. Having two Black Canaries at the same time made it necessary for them to use their real names when talking to each other over the comms in the field (Laurel, Dinah, Mia), which is a security risk when they're hiding their true identities under masks. They need code names, but this episode avoided giving the two Canaries different monikers because, quite frankly, it seems like they're avoiding the issue.

But if they're going to stick with multiple Canaries, I think they should replace Laurel and Dinah with Zoe and Sara Diggle. I'm also all for Team Green Arrow including William.

Mia's future love triangle dilemma is the most predictable non-twist in this episode. She'll be conflicted because she has two competing memories of loving JJ and hating JJ, and vice versa with Connor. Also, JJ will now have competing memories of being evil and being good, of loving Mia and hating Mia. I think he'll do some bad stuff, but ultimately I think he'll try to be good and have his own redemption arc.  My guess is that Connor will step up as a hero when JJ does bad stuff and eventually become Mia's OTP.  (Alternatively, if they introduce an adult Sara Diggle, Connor could have a Barry-Iris thing going with his foster "sister" 😉 ). 

Nitpick: Some of the songs used during the chase and fight scenes were supposed to be edgy and cool, I guess, but I found them jarring and off-putting.

I'd much rather Mia end with Connor, the guy she knows never tried to kill her. 

[Aeryn13]

Mixed bag for me. Dinah worked surprisingly well and Mia is at the beginning of her heroes journey so this double life, both inside and out, has potential.

I felt bad for JJ but at least now he can be conflicted instead of muhaha-ing. 

Laurel, though, sigh. Did she seriously pontificate on how people are what they are deep down and can never change? And then indicate that her own murdery phase was just her "pretending" to be a bad guy because that was easier than letting her inner hero out, the one that was always there?

The self-righteousness, the hypocrisy, the sheer gall... I wanted Oliver`s statue to come to life and stomp on her. 

Also, Star City, which lived through countless sieges by countless villains is a crime-free utopia for 20 years but one girl`s murder will unravel things within one year to the point that it looks like the Undertaking, the Mirakuru invasion and the Darkh thing rolled in one?     

What kept crime at bay until now? Maybe it really was the idea of Oliver`s statue coming to life, Ghostbusters style, and curb-stomping fools. 

[MISS1]

i loved this episode, KC make a best entrance,  glad  to see the large epic screentime to give to laurel, the three lead female has a good chemistry, mia and the brothers i want to see more, 

 someone said their personalities were reminiscent of the chamed series i pretty much agree

[Writing Wrongs]

I laughed at how they are supposed to be acting stealthy and they are all talking loudly seemingly to themselves at that party, yet no one hears them  or looks at them.

[CabotCove]

Quote

Sure, but in Arrow, it's parent show, all of the women in Oliver's life ended up in the know or connected to the main plot (Felicity, Sara, Laurel, and Thea all ended up on the team at one point or another). It's not a stretch to want/think they'll do the same here, especially since one of the complaints from the writers' room back in Arrow was to write for characters who weren't in the know. Plus, again, it would make the most narrative sense to have the most tech person become the tech person, and make it easier for William and Mia to have their sibling scenes. Not to mention at some point everyone will remember anyway

Yes a lot of people ended up joining Oliver's team but that was intended to be a mixed team. Im getting they want a female team here, to seperate from Arrow and other creative reasons. In this backpilot they were pretty much  serving Charlie's Angels/Birds of Prey lite show Imo,  right down to having a female villain as possible big bad. A female team up, seem to be their hook, so it dont make sense to me that, so soon they will open the door for men and throwing off that premise and hook. Not sure they will even have other girls like Zoe, Bianca or Sara D. join anytime either, for a while it could be just Dinah, Mia, Laurel. 

Dinah will be as competent as a tech person as they will want her to be, its even debatable to me that they even need a tech  person that much anyway. They got all the tech toys/software in this Arrowverse, stuff like Gideon AI, Hope AI from Supergirl etc. This is a futuristic setting where stuff like that should even be more common and not so difficult for the average person to use. Just my view on this.

Edited January 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[Keywestclubkid]

16 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Someone explain this.  Your father rewrites history and gives you a good life. Someone finds you and gives you the memories of a life you no longer lived.  How will any of those memories have an affect on you personally since you have no connection to that life?  You won't get your fighting skills back. You won't turn evil again because of erased memories. It's basically a dead life you lived before your life was rewritten .

To her when those memories were given back she did lead that life ... it’s those memories that connect her to it. 

[Primal Slayer]

17 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

Yes a lot of people ended up joining Oliver's team but that was intended to be a mixed team. Im getting they want a female team here, to seperate from Arrow and other creative reasons. In this backpilot they were pretty much  serving Charlie's Angels/Birds of Prey lite show Imo,  right down to having a female villain as possible big bad. A female team up, seem to be their hook, so it dont make sense to me that, so soon they will open the door for men and throwing off that premise and hook. Not sure they will even have other girls like Zoe, Bianca or Sara D. join anytime either, for a while it could be just Dinah, Mia, Laurel. 

Dinah will be as competent as a tech person as they will want her to be, its even debatable to me that they even need a tech  person that much anyway. They got all the tech toys/software in this Arrowverse, stuff like Gideon AI, Hope AI from Supergirl etc. This is a futuristic setting where stuff like that should even be more common and not so difficult for the average person to use. Just my view on this.

Even Charlies Angels had a Bosley. They don't need any male fighters to join the team but a male doing comms wouldn't be a big thing. It would be a bit much to have another fighter join the team, especially so soon. Something Flash/Supergirl learned for the most part is not have that many people on the team who are in the field as often. Flash has about 3 people fight an episode, same with Supergirl. 

[way2interested]

26 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

Yes a lot of people ended up joining Oliver's team but that was intended to be a mixed team

Not from the pilot though! They all ended up finding out because they decided they liked writing the mixed team better, so that's why I think they'll end up doing it again. The hook can still be the 3 of them but no way are they not going to involve William in it, especially now that the cliffhanger is him being kidnapped.

30 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

its even debatable to me that they even need a tech  person that much anyway.

Literally all of the Arrowverse shows has at least one tech person. They even shoved Dinah into it in this episode. They are going to have one. Might as well make it someone who IS a tech person is just my view on all of this.

[CabotCove]

Quote

Literally all of the Arrowverse shows has at least one tech person. They even shoved Dinah into it in this episode. They are going to have one. Might as well make it someone who IS a tech person is just my view on all of this.

If almost shows have one maybe its time to do something different especially with this being in the future. And yeah Dinah is being put in that role but like they used her in this episode, it can be a semi gig. Tech could always be used sparingly, while the ladies do their own investigations and field work like it was done in this episode. Like I mention before, Legends of Tomorrow has a whole AI system GIDEON why couldnt that be introduced here or equivalent, , after all its set in the future 2040? . 

Sorry, tech guys/girls kind of should be phased out in superheroics with the advancement of technology there is currently, let alone what could be possible 20 years from now...

Edited January 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[Primal Slayer]

2 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

If almost shows have one maybe its time to do something different especially with this being in the future. And yeah Dinah is being put in that role but like they used her in this episode, it can be a semi gig. Tech could always be used sparingly, while the ladies do their own investigations and field work like it was done in this episode. Like I mention before, Legends of Tomorrow has a whole AI system GIDEON why couldnt that be introduced here or equivalent, , after all its set in the future 2040? . 

 

If they didn't already establish so many future characters....that'd be great but they are going to want to do something with Conner/William/Zoe and likely Bianca...and Sara Diggle. Not to mention various DC comic characters. They're only in the backdoor pilot and the show is already over filled with characters. 

[statsgirl]

The tech Dinah was doing is like grade 3 level. Even Curtis was like high school. Felicity and William were doing post grad.

What the show doesn't need is another fighter. But someone with super brain smarts, as opposed to street smarts, wouldn't hurt in terms of the storytelling.

[CabotCove]

12 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

If they didn't already establish so many future characters....that'd be great but they are going to want to do something with Conner/William/Zoe and likely Bianca...and Sara Diggle. Not to mention various DC comic characters. They're only in the backdoor pilot and the show is already over filled with characters. 

Well that shouldnt be much of a problem with the girls Zoe, Bianca, Sara....they are the right sex to be in the team. 

Quote

Not from the pilot though! They all ended up finding out because they decided they liked writing the mixed team better, so that's why I think they'll end up doing it again.

It was pretty obvious , right from the beginning, Oliver would end up with a [mixed sex] Team Arrow as the show progresses.  It was to me. He was always gonna need a team, cant save the city on his own for years and forever. 

Edited January 23, 2020 by CabotCove

[way2interested]

27 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

almost shows have one maybe its time to do something different especially with this being in the future.

A spinoff directly from the show before it that started this trend for the Arrowverse isn't the one I picture changing it up tbh. Maybe for Superman instead, but I bet they still give it to Lois or another new character.

And even the shows that use AI still have a tech person, so that doesn't really make a difference in this case. The show only has 3 "main" characters so far, it won't disrupt the entire show to just let one of the supporting characters do it instead if it makes more sense, even sparingly like you suggested.

[miasth]

I admittedly enjoyed the episode more than I thought I would.  Mia needs to pull back her  hair as I think if anyone happens upon her in the suit and see the blonde tendrils they will no longer be asking if William is taking up his father's mantle.  She has a good cover where people would probably not think the pretty aimless socialite daughter has followed in her father's footsteps. 

One pet peeve of mine is having these small women take down men who are 3 times their size with no struggle.   Even with the memories Mia should have had a difficult time fighting the bad guys especially the stocky one. She has not spent her life training and is not athletic looking. 

Mia's life seemed to perfect based on the previews, so I was expecting things to not be as they seem when the episode aired.  I thought JJ was going to be undercover shady so him being a decent guy who clearly loves Mia was a surprise. Though I saw no romantic chemistry between them at all.

She however still had chemistry with this version of Connor who apparently got the short end of the stick in this universe by being made into a class A jerk.  I wonder will Connor get his other memories back-will Mia force them on him in order to save  him from himself?  It is clear she felt something based on her memories judging from how she looked at him after she got up. I do not like love triangles of any kind and am hoping the show avoids one.

William is still awesome and I really hope he is around if the show does get picked up.  We did not get too much of Zoe too really assess her character and where was Sara Diggle?  

Speaking of Sara, I started thinking about who would know about the other life and why would someone want JJ to remember his evil alt  self. That led me to wondering if Sara was the mysterious she Trevor mentioned. That would be a dirty thing to do to Dig though; 2 evil children.  The memories should not erase good JJ but that look on his face at the end has me concerned.

 

[CabotCove]

Fine, we are going in circles on this, I see it differently and thats that for me. 

[scarynikki12]

3 minutes ago, miasth said:

One pet peeve of mine is having these small women take down men who are 3 times their size with no struggle.   Even with the memories Mia should have had a difficult time fighting the bad guys especially the stocky one. She has not spent her life training and is not athletic looking. 

They gave Mia a Buffy moment when Siren threw that dish/glass/whatever it was at her so I think the memory restoration is supposed to include muscle memory as well as emotional memory. So Mia's training and skills have been restored just like her feelings for Connor and the time she spent with Oliver.

[shantown]

My biggest irk of Dinah being the tech person is that she was never a very techy person in 2020, and to suddenly be thrown 20 years in the future and be a master at all the futuristic tech? Makes no sense.

[Primal Slayer]

4 minutes ago, shantown said:

My biggest irk of Dinah being the tech person is that she was never a very techy person in 2020, and to suddenly be thrown 20 years in the future and be a master at all the futuristic tech? Makes no sense.

Is it really any different from techies magically being able to do anything with alien tech? Though she didn't do anything really fancy, I'd imagine in the future it is even easier to use.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

The tech Dinah was doing is like grade 3 level. Even Curtis was like high school. Felicity and William were doing post grad.

What the show doesn't need is another fighter. But someone with super brain smarts, as opposed to street smarts, wouldn't hurt in terms of the storytelling.

I kind of got the impression they were going to lean into Mia being super smart as well as street smart.  She actually got to go to college, and with her not knowing what she wanted to do with her life, I have a feeling she could be one of those people that just loaded up on a lot of classes so she has knowledge in a lot of things.  Which kind of makes sense that they'd want to shift the roles a bit so that Laurel and Dinah have something to contribute since they have more experience even if Mia has her street fighter memories back.   

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

They gave Mia a Buffy moment when Siren threw that dish/glass/whatever it was at her so I think the memory restoration is supposed to include muscle memory as well as emotional memory. So Mia's training and skills have been restored just like her feelings for Connor and the time she spent with Oliver.

I think it makes enough sense to use the return of her memories to explain the knowledge and the muscle memory so she could fight but they haven't explained to my satisfaction how Mia has the actual strength she'd need to pull off the moves. 

Right now I'm going with she worked out a lot in general and that was enough for one mission but I think the level of training for keeping up going out in the field needs to be way above normal fitness for fitness sake training.  I could buy that subconsciously the need to be strong  was instilled in her somehow but that wouldn't account for things like hand strength for using the bow.  Those aren't muscles she easily would have built up unless she already practiced archery as a hobby.  And who knows?  Maybe she did.    

Edited January 23, 2020 by BkWurm1

[tennisgurl]

Well shit, now I have to watch what happens next, I have to make sure that William is alright! Hasn't the poor guy been kidnapped enough?!

So our second to last episode of Arrow, and its a backdoor pilot, which...well I liked some of this, maybe a bit more than I expected to. I love that Mia and William got to grow up together, and that Mia and company at least have a rather happy life and that Star City has been doing well for at least a few years before everything goes to hell and Zoe is alive, and I love Mia in all her incarnations. Even Dinah, who I have never been a real fan of, had a good showing here, chilled badass hippie is a good look on her, and she has a great voice! I am actually decently interested in how she ended up here, and being interested in a Dinah plot is certainly something new for me! 

However, Laurel was just nails on a freaking chalkboard this whole episode, I could not stand her in any scene she was in. She really seems to have gone from snarky to total asshole apparently, what the hell did Mia do to her to deserve to be brainfucked without her consent without so much as a warning? She gave her a whole different lives memories (including memories of her fathers death) and when Mia dares to be pissed about that, she acts like she "saved her" from her "stupid pointless" life, because as we all know, any life where you arent miserable and beating up peoples, your life is useless and your a stupid useless idiot. What an awful thing to do, even if its for the Greater Good or whatever. I also got some really unpleasant "not like the other girls" vibes throughout, especially her comments about how supposedly stupid and vapid Mia`s friends are (despite being Harvard grads apparently) and just being very "you and your dresses and smiles are so lame and girlie! Not like my badass black leather and short haircut! Girls are so gross right? I love tearing down other women I dont know down! Girl power!" And then going on and on (while on a mission!) about how Mia`s fiance must be a murderer (which, pot and kettle much?) and creepily going on about how another version of her fucked Mias dad, what the hell? And how he keeps dying in every timeline, when her memories of her dads death is still fresh in her memory (thanks for that by the way)? And what was that crap about how people are the same no matter what universe of timeline? Have we forgotten that the Earth X versions of Oliver and Quentin were freaking Nazis?!? People are not the same in every universe, no matter how much you try to steal OG Laurels life! Seriously, I really want to watch Mia, William, and the rest of Team Arrow TNG but I cant handle more of Laurel being a horrible asshole while people give her more "your a hero!" speeches!

*deep breath* Anyway, its really weird coming back to 2040 after being used to it and the characters we knew from earlier this season, its almost a full reboot. So now JJ is the good one, and Conner is the screw up, if less of a screw up than actual supervillain JJ was, but no Sara Diggle? I am happy that they have a happier life and city now, but I miss the people we got to know, especially lovable boy scout Conner, and I really liked him and Mia. So now that JJ has his memories, what happens next? Will William and Conner be next? 

Where are any of the parents? No mention of Lyla and John, and only a passing mention of Felicity? Maybe we find out next week for the *sniffle* finale?

[tv echo]

Bravo, @tennisgurl!

Btw, here is the "Green Arrow & the Canaries" title card used in this episode...

(Arrowverse Scenes)

[tv echo]

Aside from the fact that all three women use their real names when talking to each other out in the field over their comms (which should be easily hackable in 2040), they also have the least disguised superhero personas, because each of them has very distinctive hair - I mean, c'mon, look at Laurel's 'disguise'...

On the tech question, the fact that Smoak Tech exists and apparently thrives in 2040 (given the luxury mansion Mia lives in), any tech expertise your normal person or even law enforcement officer (esp. one from 2020) has is going to be far surpassed by the latest tech and you'll need a tech expert to keep up (and bypass the latest security protections). 

Edited January 23, 2020 by tv echo

[Chaser]

Most reviews I’ve seen mention the lack of William as a big negative. I can’t see them not introducing William to the team as the resident Tech. It also frees up Dinah to be in the field. Tbh it wouldn’t surprise me if the only reason Dinah was doing all the tech stuff is because clueing William in is a future arc and they wanted it focused on the woman for the pilot. 

I forgot to mention that it was impressive the way Kat physically changed when Mia got her memories. She sort of strolled into the party but when she followed Dinah and Laurel out of the room she was charging. I was like ‘oh hi Mia!’

I was so confused about why Dinah was added to the spin off but I get it now. Mia/Kat and Laurel/KC need a buffer.

[way2interested]

12 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Tbh it wouldn’t surprise me if the only reason Dinah was doing all the tech stuff is because clueing William in is a future arc and they wanted it focused on the woman for the pilot. 

Yeah, like how Oliver was doing his own tech stuff since Felicity wasn't there. I totally see a conflicted/protective Mia who doesn't want to give William his memories back (since doing it unilaterally is a jerk move), William has a line about wanting to help Mia the best he can because family, sibling scene, cue William getting his own memories back and joining the team.

[tv echo]

I've been skimming reviews of this episode and one reviewer compared Mia "waking up" to Neo taking the red pill in The Matrix. However, Neo was given the choice between taking the red pill (reality) or the blue pill (ignorance). Mia was not given a choice. JJ was not given a choice. William should be given the choice. And he would probably choose getting his old memories back.

Edited January 23, 2020 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

In the grand tradition of whitewashing BS’s awfulness, the show treated her forcing Mia’s memories on her as an “awakening” while the same thing done to JJ was portrayed as a violent act. 

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

- I mean, c'mon, look at Laurel's 'disguise'...

Her disguise doesn’t even matter because no one knows her in 2040. No friends, no family, no life to hide her vigilante persona from.

[tv echo]

14 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Her disguise doesn’t even matter because no one knows her in 2040. No friends, no family, no life to hide her vigilante persona from.

But she'll be living in 2040 now, so presumably she'll be doing stuff in Star City and meeting people during the day. So over time, she will be known by others.

Btw, after watching this episode again, I actually liked it better the second time around. Once I got past all the irritating Laurel stuff, there's a lot of potential for a good series here. Mia living a double life (and will she have a "no one can know my secret" moment?). Mia and JJ both having conflicting memories. Connor's story (what happened to him?). Zoe (will she become a Black Canary?). William's kidnapping. The Secret Society of the League of Hōzen. The identity of "she." And so forth.

Edited January 23, 2020 by tv echo

[Josh371982]

I can see Mia struggling with wanting Connor William and Zoe to have their memories back. 

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

But she'll be living in 2040 now, so presumably she'll be doing stuff in Star City and meeting people during the day. So over time, she will be known by others.

They can fix that easily just by giving Laurel the "Poochie" treatment in episode 1.

For those unfamiliar...

 

[lemotomato]

1 minute ago, Chris24601 said:

They can fix that easily just by giving Laurel the "Poochie" treatment in episode 1.

I think it would be poetic if they gave her the season 3 Sara Lance treatment. She’s already fulfilled her purpose in forcing Mia back into the vigilante life and warning them something bad is going to happen. 

[Featherhat]

I really don't know why they dialled Laurel up to 11. It works for a secondary character like BS who often only has 2-3 scenes per episode but not for one of your main characters. It didn't do KC any favours they first time around when she had every right to hate Oliver. 

They took on board criticisms of Mia and Dinah and rebooted the characters and yet there Laurel is being downright nasty, aggressive, judgemental and hypocritical and not in a way where she's positioned as the antagonist ala BS. 

With the terrible Lauriver backstory mention I would hope it's a way of signalling to the audience that Laurel will have a potential love interest and let Oliver Angst go now that he's gone, even though it barely seemed to matter to BS most of the time. Why would they even mention it at that point to a shocked and grieving 20 year old. Though maybe she'll think becoming a "mentor" to Oliver's daughter when her parents are gone means she's finally won something over him. #blackstarlaurelsdaughter.

 

[Aeryn13]

I would laugh endlessly if history repeated itself. I mean KC/Laurel supposed to be a female lead on an Arrow-based show and pushed really hard early on, only for a new character to come in and for the producers to go "hm, that works better" and not-so-subtly demote her. Then they could stubbornly try again with the spin-off about Oliver`s grandchildren in 2028. 

[apinknightmare]

19 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

They took on board criticisms of Mia and Dinah and rebooted the characters and yet there Laurel is being downright nasty, aggressive, judgemental and hypocritical and not in a way where she's positioned as the antagonist ala BS. 

Katie's gotten the most praise she's ever gotten on Arrow playing a snarky asshole. Since they had gotten the character to a relatively good place as far as personality goes, I think they tried to double-down on that snarkiness since people generally seemed to like it. Give them more of what they like, right? Only it's fine when someone is delivering truth-filled one-liners to break up tension or whatever, but another thing when it's pretty much the only thing going on, apart from the "feelings stuff." She was flat-out mean and cruel most of the time, and that's not what you want your supposedly reformed villain to be doing. 

 

[Richness]

The only thing I liked about this episode was William, and maybe his interactions with Mia. Everything else was a waste of time. If it's picked up as a series, I will NOT be watching it. I didn't like most of these characters when they were introduced, and I like them even less now. If I can abandon the Vampire Diaries universe after the Originals ended, I can do it for this show too.

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I think it would be poetic if they gave her the season 3 Sara Lance treatment. She’s already fulfilled her purpose in forcing Mia back into the vigilante life and warning them something bad is going to happen. 

Ooh, you’re right. That IS better.

For bonus points can we have Sara guest star since she apparently sent Laurel 2 on this mission? They have a conversation on a rooftop. Sara leaves then... ”What are you doing here?” Thwack! Thwack! Thwack! Plummets to the pavement outside The Fishnet.

Solving Laurel 2’s murder would be a lot better than the “Where’s William?” they set up with the teaser.

ETA: I really can’t get over how awful Laurel was in this. At least Laurel 1.0 in the Arrow pilot had a number of redeeming qualities and a legitimate reason to be snarky at Oliver. This Laurel was just mean to be mean and the sooner she’s gone the better this spin-off will be.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Chris24601

[Trini]

On 1/22/2020 at 2:04 PM, quarks said:

to a full on Love Triangle complete with two brothers (note to the CW; we really don't need this many attempts to bring back The Vampire Diaries, thanks);

I don't know about Vampire Diaries, but they could also just want to parallel Mia to her father, since he was with both Laurel and Sara. ... Which was gross, so why they'd want to do that again is the question.

[Chaser]

Is it The Fishnet or The Fish Net?

[lemotomato]

6 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Is it The Fishnet or The Fish Net?

I’m guessing Fishnet, because of the stockings. 

They should’ve just called it the Pretty Bird. It would have been the only way to work that name into the show without sounding dumb and creepy.

Edited January 23, 2020 by lemotomato

[way2interested]

45 minutes ago, Trini said:

I don't know about Vampire Diaries, but they could also just want to parallel Mia to her father, since he was with both Laurel and Sara. ... Which was gross, so why they'd want to do that again is the question.

Eh, there it was gross because of the cheating and backstabbing and immaturity and lying that was going on for it, in the pilot no less. Nothing even happened yet for this triangle, other than teasing there might be one. And all of the Arrowverse shows in s1 had a love triangle in it (Laurel with Tommy and Oliver, Iris with Barry and Eddie, Kendra with Carter and Ray, James with Kara and Lucy, Sophie with Kate and her husband), it's not just for Arrow or Vampire Diaries

Edited January 23, 2020 by way2interested

[lemotomato]

Mia wasn’t lucky enough to have a foster sibling as her love interest, so she has to work with what she got.