Episode Discussion II: The TFGH

[ffwbe]

I don’t recall the last time any of Sam or Dante’s kids were even seen so I can’t imagine a baby of there’s would ever be shown. The few times they were mentioned, they were said to be upstairs. 

[YaddaYadda]

They showed them on Thanksgiving at the Penthouse, watching the parade on the day Drewfus returned from Greece.

[jsbt]

35 minutes ago, ffwbe said:

I don’t recall the last time any of Sam or Dante’s kids were even seen so I can’t imagine a baby of there’s would ever be shown. The few times they were mentioned, they were said to be upstairs. 

Every time them kids show up they have another 2-3 years on them. I remember the Thanksgiving @YaddaYaddamentioned. These two teenagers came in and I nearly did a spit take. I also had no idea who at least one of them was.

[Asp Burger]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

This is exactly why there will be no drama out of Lulu waking up. Sam and Dante already said they loved each other, which is well and good, I guess. But they've done absolutely nothing to build a relationship between Sam and Rocco or between Dante and Danny/Scout. The only time we saw the kids hanging out was for a hot minute something like two years ago.

They're a Sam/Patrick rerun. That was another relationship that just seemed to be happening because both parties' previous love interests weren't around anymore. No momentum, no strong foundational story (like, some dangerous thing throwing them together), and just so-so chemistry.

If and when they break up, I wonder if she'll needlessly use his full name when she talks about him, like she does with Patrick. "When I was living with Dante Falconeri..." 

I don't even mind them, but it's hard for me to remember the content of a Sam/Dante conversation. Like, ever. The only scene of theirs that really stands out is the one in which he was coaching her on her batting stance for softball and there were sexual undertones. That isn't to say this was even a good scene.

[ffwbe]

24 minutes ago, Asp Burger said:

I don't even mind them, but it's hard for me to remember the content of a Sam/Dante conversation. Like, ever. The only scene of theirs that really stands out is the one in which he was coaching her on her batting stance for softball and there were sexual undertones. That isn't to say this was even a good scene.

Dante being brainwashed when he came back to town was probably supposed to be their big bonding SL. They even had Dr. O order him to save Franco which was the reason Alexis ended up almost killing him. But that storyline was mostly ignored until they decided they needed him to play cop again and probably had to address it since giving a brainwashed guy access to a gun was a no go so they wrapped it up in 1 episode and almost all offscreen.
 

Since then, they’ve just been cutesy couple playing house. Every time they tease angst for them, it’s so lame or low stakes. Sam reads his work emails trying to find info for Carly over something that wasn’t her business and gets a gentle talking to. Sam then frets over not wanting to move into Lulu’s house but Dante doesn’t seem to care about moving into Jason’s former residence and uprooting his kid whose mother is in a coma. Drew’s return probably should have brought some drama but Sam didn’t have a hint of feelings left for him and this version of Drew is so lame anyway. 

[Bunnyto4]

21 hours ago, Daisy said:

Show... do not make Molly pregnant. DO not. 

It's Sam. "Food poisoning" my ass.🤣 I can't wait! Another 16 lbs at birth PC baby? Will it be born with a British accent?

[Bunnyto4]

I love this side of Laura. Making that bitch Ashby suffer is giving me life. Plus, there is not half enough Diane on this show. IMO, she always brings her A game to her scenes.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Asp Burger said:

They're a Sam/Patrick rerun.

I said this exact same thing pages and pages ago!

BIG FAT NO! to anything happening romance-wise between Robert and Mob Lawyer, Diane.

[Auntie Velvet]

My proposal is that they actually have both Molly and Sam be pregnant AND that that this results in Kristina going full "woe is me, the middle child" psycho and deciding to get pregnant too.

[Cheyanne11]

1 hour ago, Bunnyto4 said:

It's Sam. "Food poisoning" my ass.🤣 I can't wait! Another 16 lbs at birth PC baby? Will it be born with a British accent?

Will she again give birth through her jeans?

[jsbt]

The My Date with Sonny scenes scream meeting Maurice's guarantee. Just bizarre. I am waiting for Sonny to buy Dex a suit and/or dress and offer to take him to the island.

[ccphilly]

On 3/1/2023 at 4:17 PM, perkie1968 said:

The fact that they're using Adam in the bed and not some random body, who's face we don't see, makes me think they're keeping Adam.  This show is so cheap there would be no way they would pay Adam to lie in a bed unless he was sticking around.  Unless they offered him a certain number of episodes and lying in a coma was one of them.  I liked Adam so I'm hoping he sticks around.  I don't want to break in someone new.  

 

I didn't like him at first but he really sold me with those scenes at the hospital with NC and GF-especially the last scene by the elevators with GF.  

[slayer2]

I'm eagerly awaiting future Sprina scenes next week. I hope to get some kisses but I also hope that, while supporting Spencer, Trina can reiterate what Laura and Cam have repeatedly told him, to stop leaping without looking. It was heartbreaking to see him blame himself for his father's disappearance but in a way he was partly to blame. His goal was to get rid of his father and now (only temporarily thank god) he has succeeded and he's wailing about it. 

I love the kid but you asked for this. You can't keep making foolish choices without thinking them through then wailing about the consequences. He did the same when he (through no influence but his own) chose that stupid plan to fool Trina and Joss and everyone else into believing he took Esme's side.

The plan didn't work, it blew up in his face and he ended up back in an even worse prison, physically and mentally. Cam begged him to see reason and to simply come clean to everyone and go about things another way. Cam told him what Trina later echoed, that Trina would be more comforted and supported if she knew he believed in her, but instead Spencer went forward with his boneheaded plan breaking Trina's heart and emotionally blindsiding her and his friends and family in the process. When Cam tried desperately to thwart the ill-thought out, ridiculous plan it landed them both in jail.

This kind of reckless behaviour is really dangerous for others to be around and I loved that Laura tried to tell him to think before he acts in the future (for all the good it will do her.) When Spencer was blackmailing his father Laura told him he'd regret it, she knew deep down he still really loved him and his actions came from a place of pain. But Spencer, a true Pisces, swore up and down that he didn't care about his father anymore and now Spencer has gone ahead and broken his own heart (with Ava's help). And it would be even worse had Trina not cleverly called his bluff on turning his father in especially since Nik only "confessed" to protect Ava to begin with.

 

I know Nik isn't father of the year, he's a damn mess, but compared to some others (I'm looking at you Sonny and Frisco) he's not as bad as he could be and yes I understand he's an adult but what those Sonnys and Carlys who judge him fail to remember is that he has generational childhood trauma too. Abandoned, as far as he knew, by his mother and taunted by Lucky that he was a child of r*pe and who knows what other lies Stavros and Helena told him, he hasn't exactly had a dream childhood. Yeah he was rich, but I hate the way the show uses that to negate both Nik and Spencer's pain. I don't think anyone (but Laura) truly understands the burden of being a Cassadine child.

Edited March 3, 2023 by slayer2

[Bringonthedrama]

7 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

This is exactly why there will be no drama out of Lulu waking up. Sam and Dante already said they loved each other, which is well and good, I guess.

How is this even a soap when the writers consistently suck the drama out of everything?

The drama, or I guess I should say the intention for drama, stems from Dante's love for both Lulu and Sam, as well as Lulu waking up to find out that Sam is pregnant with Dante's kid. Some of you may recall when Lulu wanted more than anything to be pregnant but then was devastated to find out she could not carry a baby to term. Imagine how jealous and hurt she would be to remember that she believed she and Dante would be getting back together, but now he appears to be happy with another woman and is anticipating fatherhood again. 

The Show can also have drama, or at least filler scenes, from Dante, Lulu and Sam talking things out with siblings and Laura, Sonny and Olivia, and Alexis. 

2 hours ago, Auntie Velvet said:

My proposal is that they actually have both Molly and Sam be pregnant AND that that this results in Kristina going full "woe is me, the middle child" psycho and deciding to get pregnant too.

I could totally see the writers going for this, too. 

[Daisy]

If Sam doesn't want babies and Dante doesn't want babies why go with "well if it happens yay" why not get a vasectomy? these ppl

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Daisy said:

why not get a vasectomy?

Please. The men doing anything to prevent a pregnancy? That's the wimmin's responsibility! Also, I'm sure the writers think a vasectomy is somehow emasculating.

[dubbel zout]

It's not "a formality" that a judge will give Spencer parental rights to Esmé's baby. Ugh. The entitlement there is so gross. I agree about the name, though. Ace is a playing card.

"Maybe this is a conversation we should have in private." "Oh, maaaan!" Hee. KSt played that perfectly. I like that Sasha insisted she and BLQ talk it out.

Nice callback to masks and Faison, Show! I loved how Felicia kept peeling off her makeup and Eileen was grossed out.

We're never going to find out what Victor's master plan is, are we? 

I can't stop laughing at how gigantic that "newborn" is! 

Zzzz, more complete boredom with Mason and Austin on Monday.

[KittyQ]

Since when does someone who isn't the parent or legal guardian get to name a child, especially when the mother, at least, is still alive?

I agree "Ace" is not a great name, but soaps in general have a lot of history with peculiar names. It seems as though Spencer and Laura would at least try to get Esme to consider more "appropriate" names for the baby.

[PatsyandEddie]

Isn’t that what Spencer is hoping to be? The baby’s legal guardian?

I have to fawn over the babies playing Ace though! Totally gorgeous and quite at ease with the actors. 
GF played it perfectly with her look of wariness when Great Uncle Victor was holding the baby. She looked ready to pounce on him if he tried to leave with Ace. 
 

I hope Prof Gonzo isn’t terminally ill. His character should have a proper story. Working as a reporter might be just what he needs 

[KittyQ]

Just now, PatsyandEddie said:

I hope Prof Gonzo isn’t terminally ill. His character should have a proper story. Working as a reporter might be just what he needs 

I wondered if that was the reason he was no longer teaching. Having two very ill characters would be too much, IMO. I also hope he wasn't let go for problem behavior. 

I don't know if he'd be satisfied being a reporter; having been a professor, he might want a more managerial role. I'm sure there is a need for more than one editor at the Invader. Online new sites publish more frequently than the old paper models, so there needs to be a lot of editorial work, I imagine.

[ciarra]

He's terminally boring.

[Peppermint Patty]

Did I miss a scene where we saw Esme’s reaction to Spencer telling her he was taking Ace? Didn’t Laura promise that Esme would not be separated from Ace? Now Spencer has the baby and he supposedly doesn’t have a name. I’m confused. (Also not surprised I’m confused because the writing sucks.)

I liked Kristina and Molly, but it would have been nice to use a Molly pregnancy as a way to explore a woman’s right to choose. Now all we’ll get is more googly eyes over another baby. 
 

 

[Daisy]

18 minutes ago, Peppermint Patty said:

I liked Kristina and Molly, but it would have been nice to use a Molly pregnancy as a way to explore a woman’s right to choose. Now all we’ll get is more googly eyes over another baby. 

i was truly expecting Molly to say she didn't want to be pregnant because it was a bad time for her.  whatever show

 

 

[Cheyanne11]

42 minutes ago, Daisy said:

i was truly expecting Molly to say she didn't want to be pregnant because it was a bad time for her.  whatever show

 

 

One sentence of "the timing isn't great" equates to GH "having the pro-choice debate."  Fuck off, show.

I'm assuming Diane's news about AceNotAce is that he petitioned the court himself, given he looks old enough to write a legal brief.  #GiantBabies

[Fellaway]

1 hour ago, Peppermint Patty said:

Did I miss a scene where we saw Esme’s reaction to Spencer telling her he was taking Ace? 

Another instance of the editing sucking. It is really noticeably, ever more consistently bad these days.

1 hour ago, Daisy said:

i was truly expecting Molly to say she didn't want to be pregnant because it was a bad time for her.  

That is where I thought it'd be going, too, especially after Molly made a point to remind us she is "non-traditional" the other day. Good glory, this show doesn't need another kid. It doesn't need another pregnancy storyline so soon. And it really doesn't need another rote "don't we all just love and want babies" storyline. Alas, I'm afraid we're about to get all of the above.

Count me amongst those mystified at Spencer being allowed to take the baby. (More bad editing, Show, or you're just that lazy to not bother with the legal proceedings that would be involved in that scenario?) And for Spencer to have naming rights? (Seriously, Show, he hasn't adopted this kid yet, has he?) Regardless of how he or anyone feels about Esme, it's beyond petty to not let her name her own kid.

Also, Diane? Didn't Spencer already hire you to help him get the kid? Did you jump ship to take on someone else as your client in this situation? Sure. Nothing unethical about that.

Oy.

I guess I missed the lesson on friendship where it's required to tell your friends everything going on in your life. Good to know Alexis and Joss didn't miss it.

[statsgirl]

Where is Martin (other than in the bedroom with Lucy)? He is Esmè's court appointed lawyer and that shouldn't have changed just because Nik isn't in town.

What is it with the assumption that Esmè is going to name her baby Ace? Lots of parents use pet names for their kids especially when they are babies. Portia usually addresses Trina as "baby girl" but I'm pretty sure that's not the name on her birth certificate.

[Daisy]

36 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Portia usually addresses Trina as "baby girl" but I'm pretty sure that's not the name on her birth certificate.

 

maybe she's Trina Baby Girl Robinson?

[Auntie Velvet]

In retrospect, it would have been funny if Uncle Victor historically refused to call Spencer by his first name, given that it honors a mortal enemy of the Cassadines. He should always address him by one of his seven other names, or give him an alternative, like Stefan always calling Laura "Lasha" or "Masha" or whatever it was.

[Suicidy]

On 2/28/2023 at 1:11 PM, slayer2 said:

You can be a POC however it's an entirely different kettle of fish to be a Black Woman consuming media. 

Racism, specifically anti-blackness is systemic and as such it's in everything, everywhere, all the time, it was quite literally designed that way. Media in particular plays a very insidious role and soap operas, in the beginning were positive examples of cultural shifts however things really haven't progressed since the 90s.

One only has to look at GH now compared to 10 years ago, this is the first time since the Wards that there have been prominent Black families on the show and they are literally the only example of alleged "diversity."

Sonny being a Latino character is a happenstance of them acknowledging the actor's heritage with respect to how much space he takes up on the show but there are no prominent Latino, Asian, or South-East Asian families in 2023 and the character's father is Greek. None of his children openly embrace or speak of their Latino heritage either.

There are no LGBTQ characters save for one Transgender Woman who unfortunately, is treated more like a dayplayer and Brad Cooper who has been little more than Britt's bestie of late. They showed some progress with Night Shift but that show dissipated and there hasn't been much since. 

There is no excuse for a young character on a soap to be on a show for 4 years with no definitive love interest. Spencer and her have been dancing around each other for a year and a half and she was still told to "go slow" the character is not treated the same way romantically as other characters her age on the show. It's certainly easy to dismiss it when you aren't Black and aren't paying attention however when you grow up watching TV and often see Black Women poorly represented and when you you frequently see tropes like this left, right and centre (and can cite many other soaps and examples but won't do that here) you simply don't have that luxury.

To be fair, given the current crap state of the writing, everyone except the Corinthi are given short shift.  And even their writing is awful.

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Where is Martin (other than in the bedroom with Lucy)? He is Esmè's court appointed lawyer and that shouldn't have changed just because Nik isn't in town.

Martin wasn't appointed by the court. Nikolas hired him and I'm assuming he's the reason Spencer isn't allowed to take the adult baby home with him.

[sunnyface]

5 hours ago, Suicidy said:

To be fair, given the current crap state of the writing, everyone except the Corinthi are given short shift.  And even their writing is awful.

There have been some mighty big changes in the past couple of years in Port Charles each weekday.  The departure of Jason and the break-up of Carly and Sonny forced FV's hand to see what he could do with the rest of the cast.

Cam and Trina (Sidney) looked like the answer to lead the younger generation. Gosh Darn It. Willow, Sasha, Maxie, Brooklyn, all have been through lackluster pregnancies and romances. I enjoy watching Dante and Kristina so I am glad that the the coven is back and hopefully - Jane Elliot will make Millow/Brooklyn/Cody more entertaining to watch like NLG has done for the coven.  Spencer is becoming Morgan-like and needs to tone it down and nuTrina isn't doing it for me.

But what doesn't drag this soap down are the veterans.  It doesn't make a difference about the directing, writing, editing because these guys are professionals that are able to rise above the drudge.  This viewer isn't paying attention to the fabric of a couch, title of a book, or a bowl of moss when Laura and Maura  grace the screen.  They gave Jane Elliot during one of her returns a story about a condiment (relish) and the actress was able to make it even more entertaining to watch than a mob shoot out or pregnancy.

Edited March 4, 2023 by sunnyface
carly

[Cheyanne11]

12 hours ago, Fellaway said:

Also, Diane? Didn't Spencer already hire you to help him get the kid? Did you jump ship to take on someone else as your client in this situation? Sure. Nothing unethical about that.

I read that scene as she was coming back from court where she had represented Spencer and something happened there that changed the situation, not that Diane was working against Spencer.

[Mirabelle]

Spencer's attitude towards Esme Jr (I refuse to call him Ace) is Carly-like and not at all attractive. I hope he actually listens to what his grandmother (and, hopefully, eventually Cam and Trina) tell him and give up on this idea of raising a baby. He's not mature enough to raise a baby - I'm not even sure I'd trust him to take care of Moss. 

[Winston Wolfe]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Nikolas hired him and I'm assuming he's the reason Spencer isn't allowed to take the adult baby home with him.

Hmm - "adult baby." Seems like that could apply to half the characters on this soap.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Winston Wolfe

[perkie1968]

13 hours ago, Fellaway said:

And for Spencer to have naming rights?

While I don't think Esme has had time to fill out any paperwork, changing a person's name is more than just 'heh I don't like it, lets name him something else'.  There is paperwork to be filled, especially for the birth certificate and all that governmental stuff.  I remember being given that paperwork while still in hospital and being told to get cracking on filling it out and getting it submitted.  But maybe things are different in the States than here.  

 

17 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I can't stop laughing at how gigantic that "newborn" is! 

It's hilarious yet at the same time he's a gorgeous baby so I'm not sad to have to see him.  When NAC came into the hall, holding the baby who was sitting up pretty straight but then he leaned and rested himself on NAC's chest, I think my ovaries exploded....and their too old for that!!!   I'd rather see the gorgeous giant baby than a doll or a bunch of blankets like they used for baby Liam before they killed him off.  

[Kim0820]

14 hours ago, Fellaway said:

Count me amongst those mystified at Spencer being allowed to take the baby. (More bad editing, Show, or you're just that lazy to not bother with the legal proceedings that would be involved in that scenario?) And for Spencer to have naming rights? (Seriously, Show, he hasn't adopted this kid yet, has he?) Regardless of how he or anyone feels about Esme, it's beyond petty to not let her name her own kid.

Also, Diane? Didn't Spencer already hire you to help him get the kid? Did you jump ship to take on someone else as your client in this situation? Sure. Nothing unethical about that.

Oy.

I guess I missed the lesson on friendship where it's required to tell your friends everything going on in your life. Good to know Alexis and Joss didn't miss it.

Yes, wasn't Diane representing Spencer?  Then that is not the way you'd tell the client they didn't prevail in the court.  

Almost like they are trolling us to come up with another pregnancy.  Oh well, I guess the two babies have been born now, and so we have to start up another.  Can they think of nothing else?  

Esme going to jail might not even be enough in the real world to terminate parental rights, and so the name is her choice, though GH law may differ.  It is better that Spencer is going to live with Laura and Charlotte.  Laura's the one who the real DCS would be considering as caretaker. 

9 hours ago, Auntie Velvet said:

In retrospect, it would have been funny if Uncle Victor historically refused to call Spencer by his first name, given that it honors a mortal enemy of the Cassadines. He should always address him by one of his seven other names, or give him an alternative, like Stefan always calling Laura "Lasha" or "Masha" or whatever it was.

Luke did a lot of that - "Caroline" and "Natasha."  Because he knew who they really were when everyone else didn't!

On 3/2/2023 at 5:33 PM, YaddaYadda said:

 

I get that FV is fine with his actors doing outside projects, but this story has zero momentum because of it. This thing has already been stretched for too long. Anna shows up on screen every week and half to two weeks, makes out with Valentin, repeats the same line before they both vanish for another week and half to two weeks.  

Maybe a Temp Valentin is in order.  It's gotten routine to do it and it might help.

[jsbt]

47 minutes ago, Kim0820 said:

Maybe a Temp Valentin is in order.  It's gotten routine to do it and it might help.

It really and truly is giving Todd's Hotel on OLTL 2.0 vibes. Just one room and people sitting around talking about stuff happening somewhere else. All because Frank apparently thinks JPS is about to be snapped up by HBO or some shit.

[Aymery]

On 3/1/2023 at 5:11 AM, slayer2 said:

You can be a POC however it's an entirely different kettle of fish to be a Black Woman consuming media. 

Racism, specifically anti-blackness is systemic and as such it's in everything, everywhere, all the time, it was quite literally designed that way. Media in particular plays a very insidious role and soap operas, in the beginning were positive examples of cultural shifts however things really haven't progressed since the 90s.

One only has to look at GH now compared to 10 years ago, this is the first time since the Wards that there have been prominent Black families on the show and they are literally the only example of alleged "diversity."

Sonny being a Latino character is a happenstance of them acknowledging the actor's heritage with respect to how much space he takes up on the show but there are no prominent Latino, Asian, or South-East Asian families in 2023 and the character's father is Greek. None of his children openly embrace or speak of their Latino heritage either.

There are no LGBTQ characters save for one Transgender Woman who unfortunately, is treated more like a dayplayer and Brad Cooper who has been little more than Britt's bestie of late. They showed some progress with Night Shift but that show dissipated and there hasn't been much since. 

There is no excuse for a young character on a soap to be on a show for 4 years with no definitive love interest. Spencer and her have been dancing around each other for a year and a half and she was still told to "go slow" the character is not treated the same way romantically as other characters her age on the show. It's certainly easy to dismiss it when you aren't Black and aren't paying attention however when you grow up watching TV and often see Black Women poorly represented and when you you frequently see tropes like this left, right and centre (and can cite many other soaps and examples but won't do that here) you simply don't have that luxury.

I am loath to defend this show but IMO, their motives behind the long wait for Trina to get her OTP will be determined by what they do for her first time. Are they holding out for one of those ultimate payoff candles-and-roses love scenes with an actual prince, or are they going to do the bare minimum (or worse, shove it offscreen) because she's a darker-skinned woman and they need to pander to the anti-"miscegenation" brigade? (You'd hope the latter went away with Loving v. Virginia, except I read that, as recently as the '90s, Y&R's interracial pairing of Victoria Newman and Neil Winters still landed the show and actors death threats.)

While it's true they didn't put her together with Spencer officially until now, I feel like they've been doing an old-school, will-they, won't-they slow-burn romance with them since the day NAC debuted as adult Spencer. And it's not like she didn't have a single love interest in all that time, unless you're completely writing off the late, unlamented Rory. (Personally I think that relationship was underinvested and they could just as easily have had her sleep with him, but of course they had to keep her virginal and pure for Spencer. That, I feel, was unnecessary. They should just have had her sleep with him, have a good time but realize she doesn't love him.)

Of course you're right that Joss has moved onto love interest #3 - but it's at the same time Trina got to kiss her #2. And you have to factor in that Joss is also the daughter of the show's leading lady, the only young Spencer woman on canvas right now, and an honorary Corinthos, who are even bigger than the Spencers. She didn't get to have sex until last year either, and her first time was spoiled by being broadcast to the whole college, following which she went through a long period of abstinence until her Dex affair began. (In some ways, her story with Dex parallels Trina's with Spencer: being with one guy, not being intimate with him, while secretly longing for another man.)

And what about Cam - a Hardy, who should be royalty on this show, and he's only ever had one love interest, Joss, who slept with him a grand total of twice before cheating on him? Plus there's been three other teen boys who've actually died without ever getting have sex, in two cases with unrequited love for the only girl they ever showed any interest in.

All that being said, I will take it all back if Sprina are given the short shrift on their first time.

On the other hand, I agree totally with the lack of meaningful romantic prospects for the LGBTQ+ characters. The discriminatory treatment is undeniable. You missed Kristina among their ranks but it doesn't change GH's failure because she doesn't have a love interest either. Terry's been on the show for nearly 5 years and they only just decided to give her a boyfriend. And is it a main character like Michael or Dante, who'd be age-appropriate? Nope. Is it at least a supporting character like Chase, Curtis, Austin, etc.? Nope. It's glorified dayplayer Yuri. Brad has been on the show even longer but he hasn't even gotten a whiff of romance since Lucas divorced him years ago (Lucas who?). I thought maybe the introduction of Cody might change things but instead, they keep throwing him at women, leaving Brad the sole gay on canvas. (Coincidentally - or not - Terry and Brad are the only Asian-Americans on canvas apart from Selina Wu, who also has no love interest.) Nor are there any lesbian/bi women for Kristina. It's like GH want to claim LGBTQ+ representation without putting in any effort whatsoever. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Aymery

[AryasMum]

2 hours ago, perkie1968 said:

While I don't think Esme has had time to fill out any paperwork, changing a person's name is more than just 'heh I don't like it, lets name him something else'.  There is paperwork to be filled, especially for the birth certificate and all that governmental stuff.  I remember being given that paperwork while still in hospital and being told to get cracking on filling it out and getting it submitted.  But maybe things are different in the States than here.  

 

It's hilarious yet at the same time he's a gorgeous baby so I'm not sad to have to see him.  When NAC came into the hall, holding the baby who was sitting up pretty straight but then he leaned and rested himself on NAC's chest, I think my ovaries exploded....and their too old for that!!!   I'd rather see the gorgeous giant baby than a doll or a bunch of blankets like they used for baby Liam before they killed him off.  

The most beautiful babies I can recall on daytime:  Liam on OLTL, and baby Emma. 

[jsbt]

21 minutes ago, Aymery said:

While it's true they didn't put her together with Spencer officially until now, I feel like they've been doing an old-school, will-they, won't-they slow-burn romance with them since the day NAC debuted as adult Spencer. And it's not like she didn't have a single love interest in all that time, unless you're completely writing off the late, unlamented Rory. 

I am! I think Rory was the most recent in a long line of excuses to slow-walk this romance. I think it's absolutely true that they intended to try Spencer with Trina from the jump when they hired Chavez, but I also think they didn't know what they had at first (and I also am among those who thought Chavez was a bit green early on despite having charisma). I think if they could've moved him to Joss or another white girl then they would've. They found themselves at a disadvantage online plus they were dealing with other issues at the show (Steve Burton, COVID, etc). I frankly think they have been partly hoping to run out the clock on Chavez's contract to see if they can elide the interracial issue as much as possible until he leaves. They have a popular young pairing they have clearly been scared of, and Trina and Spencer are both characters who were initially intended to be the B-players or 'ethnic' sidekicks to Joss and other white leads. Trina still often fills that role for Joss.

This is a mold of the canvas Frank has pursued again and again at this show because it served him well at another show. The last time he saw true success in moving youth demographic numbers, once the most prized commodity of all under the Brian Frons regime (and the last time soaps held any real agency at Disney/ABC), was around 15 years ago. On that canvas, young white teen leads were showcased with their caring and kind Latino and Black friends who, while played by more talented and often popular performers, almost never had major A-story and spent most of their time clucking over their white friends' problems and romantic foibles. On that same canvas, an attempt at frontburner LGBTQ story was met with conservative backlash and a drop in crucial numbers for survival. FV's solution to this was to fire the gay characters, fire several performers of color and add three new young white men as part of a unit, all to be paired with young white women. We could've stopped when this started sounding familiar, but here we are. Soaps have gone from subsistence to survival and back again, and sadly now they just want to hold on to what little they have left. GH is doing a lot better quality-wise now than it has in a while, but it's still got a lot of bad shit on everyday. That's because of the mentality, and that IMO is why Frank still leans on the old mindset and concepts of what the storylines and focus should be from prior jobs back when the money and attention was a little more plentiful.

I could get into the Cameron of it all and how Frank also has a history of devaluing popular young leading men who don't fit into a specific hardbody mold, or the bizarre Lucas situation in recent years, but that's more detail than is required. I think if William Lipton isn't paired with specific stars and delivering what he needs in that zone then FV has shown little commitment to him and is happy to let him stay off contract. The upshot is these days I have no reason to trust GH until GH delivers, and they haven't delivered adequately in particular for Black characters or minority storylines in general in a long time. (And yes, the lack of contract Wu characters is nuts especially given the likely Oscar results on ABC next weekend.) I'm happy they've made it official with Spencer and Trina, but everything hinges on whether they deliver going forward.

Edited March 4, 2023 by jsbt

[slayer2]

54 minutes ago, Aymery said:

I am loath to defend this show but IMO, their motives behind the long wait for Trina to get her OTP will be determined by what they do for her first time. Are they holding out for one of those ultimate payoff candles-and-roses love scenes with an actual prince, or are they going to do the bare minimum (or worse, shove it offscreen) because she's a darker-skinned woman and they need to pander to the anti-"miscegenation" brigade? (You'd hope the latter went away with Loving v. Virginia, except I read that, as recently as the '90s, Y&R's interracial pairing of Victoria Newman and Neil Winters still landed the show and actors death threats.)

While it's true they didn't put her together with Spencer officially until now, I feel like they've been doing an old-school, will-they, won't-they slow-burn romance with them since the day NAC debuted as adult Spencer. And it's not like she didn't have a single love interest in all that time, unless you're completely writing off the late, unlamented Rory. (Personally I think that relationship was underinvested and they could just as easily have had her sleep with him, but of course they had to keep her virginal and pure for Spencer. That, I feel, was unnecessary. They should just have had her sleep with him, have a good time but realize she doesn't love him.)

Of course you're right that Joss has moved onto love interest #3 - but it's at the same time Trina got to kiss her #2. And you have to factor in that Joss is also the daughter of the show's leading lady, the only young Spencer woman on canvas right now, and an honorary Corinthos, who are even bigger than the Spencers. She didn't get to have sex until last year either, and her first time was spoiled by being broadcast to the whole college, following which she went through a long period of abstinence until her Dex affair began. (In some ways, her story with Dex parallels Trina's with Spencer: being with one guy, not being intimate with him, while secretly longing for another man.)

And what about Cam - a Hardy, who should be royalty on this show, and he's only ever had one love interest, Joss, who slept with him a grand total of twice before cheating on him? Plus there's been three other teen boys who've actually died without ever getting have sex, in two cases with unrequited love for the only girl they ever showed any interest in.

All that being said, I will take it all back if Sprina are given the short shrift on their first time.

On the other hand, I agree totally with the lack of meaningful romantic prospects for the LGBTQ+ characters. The discriminatory treatment is undeniable. You missed Kristina among their ranks but it doesn't change GH's failure because she doesn't have a love interest either. Terry's been on the show for nearly 5 years and they only just decided to give her a boyfriend. And is it a main character like Michael or Dante, who'd be age-appropriate? Nope. Is it at least a supporting character like Chase, Curtis, Austin, etc.? Nope. It's glorified dayplayer Yuri. Brad has been on the show even longer but he hasn't even gotten a whiff of romance since Lucas divorced him years ago (Lucas who?). I thought maybe the introduction of Cody might change things but instead, they keep throwing him at women, leaving Brad the sole gay on canvas. (Coincidentally - or not - Terry and Brad are the only Asian-Americans on canvas apart from Selina Wu, who also has no love interest.) Nor are there any lesbian/bi women for Kristina. It's like GH want to claim LGBTQ+ representation without putting in any effort whatsoever. 

Thank you for this thoughtful and introspective response. This makes total sense and I agree. And there are certainly a lot of variables involved (even though the show often doesn't acknowledge them) you're probably right that how they go about Spencer and Trina's first time will give us a clearer picture how they are treating the character and thank you for thr notes regarding colourism, a dark (no pun intended) facet of racism I think is often (unfortunately) under-estimated and overlooked. 

[slayer2]

47 minutes ago, jsbt said:

I am! I think Rory was the most recent in a long line of excuses to slow-walk this romance. I think it's absolutely true that they intended to try Spencer with Trina from the jump when they hired Chavez, but I also think they didn't know what they had at first (and I also am among those who thought Chavez was a bit green early on despite having charisma). I think if they could've moved him to Joss or another white girl then they would've. They found themselves at a disadvantage online plus they were dealing with other issues at the show (Steve Burton, COVID, etc). I frankly think they have been partly hoping to run out the clock on Chavez's contract to see if they can elide the interracial issue as much as possible until he leaves. They have a popular young pairing they have clearly been scared of, and Trina and Spencer are both characters who were initially intended to be the B-players or 'ethnic' sidekicks to Joss and other white leads. Trina still often fills that role for Joss.

This is a mold of the canvas Frank has pursued again and again at this show because it served him well at another show. The last time he saw true success in moving youth demographic numbers, once the most prized commodity of all under the Brian Frons regime (and the last time soaps held any real agency at Disney/ABC), was around 15 years ago. On that canvas, young white teen leads were showcased with their caring and kind Latino and Black friends who, while played by more talented and often popular performers, almost never had major A-story and spent most of their time clucking over their white friends' problems and romantic foibles. On that same canvas, an attempt at frontburner LGBTQ story was met with conservative backlash and a drop in crucial numbers for survival. FV's solution to this was to fire the gay characters, fire several performers of color and add three new young white men as part of a unit, all to be paired with young white women. We could've stopped when this started sounding familiar, but here we are. Soaps have gone from subsistence to survival and back again, and sadly now they just want to hold on to what little they have left. GH is doing a lot better quality-wise now than it has in a while, but it's still got a lot of bad shit on everyday

I can see this as well. It still strikes me as so odd that the soap medium that used to lead the charge on social issues has become so fearful and backwards compared to the rest of society. I have often wondered myself if FV is just  "running out the clock" on NAC's contract so he won't have to do an interracial romance as the "big teen story" which strikes me as so wild give the popularity of Michonne on TWD, John and Evangeline on TVD, Gia and Nik on GH back in the day and MJ and Peter in the Spiderman franchise now (although colourism comes into play there).

And although Spencer himself is written as technically White the actor is himself is Latino as is MC and the original actor playing his Dad is Indigenous, so it's not the massive roll of the dice that FV may think it is, if that's where his head is at.

It's just so baffling that soaps like GH fell behind like this. But I guess as a poster upthread said we'll see how they handle Sprina sex and/or if they just wait for NAC's clock to run out first with impromptu, inexplicable faux dad hijinx and/or "daddy issues" clogging the drain instead of a romance many fans have been waiting almost two years for.

[jsbt]

7 minutes ago, slayer2 said:

I can see this as well. It still strikes me as so odd that the soap medium that used to lead the charge on social issues has become so fearful and backwards compared to the rest of society.

I think GH fundamentally fumbled the ball not depicting COVID (or an equivalent pandemic) affecting their workplace and canvas onscreen. This is what their show is built for. Does it need to be presented as an unending continuum of desperate and depressing struggle, no, but it was and is the right thing to do. To say nothing of the current handling of abortion and pregnancy on the show vs. IRL current events. Labine and Riche would do it all.

[slayer2]

23 minutes ago, jsbt said:

I think GH fundamentally fumbled the ball not depicting COVID (or an equivalent pandemic) affecting their workplace and canvas onscreen. This is what their show is built for. Does it need to be presented as an unending continuum of desperate and depressing struggle, no, but it was and is the right thing to do. To say nothing of the current handling of abortion and pregnancy on the show vs. IRL current events. Labine and Riche would do it all.

Sooo true! And what's insane is there is heaps and heaps of data to support the fact that diversity and addressing social/topical issues on shows boosts ratings. It just makes zero sense. But I guess since they killed off or sent to prison most of their doctors, nurses and hospital staff they didn't bother.

Edited March 4, 2023 by slayer2

[mbluecpa]

As much as I liked seeing the return of Molly and Christina to our screens, the pregnancy options from here are not good: a likely very very short arc with a lightly-recurring character, or a needless pregnancy/plot point for Sam.  Given two recent births, hopefully it’s negative.

I don’t feel like the writers have given us enough on Gregory for me to really care about his potential medical problem.  Once the Chase paternity thing was resolved, all we’ve seen from him is a steady diet of work talk that makes my office seem scintillating.  

I loved the Zombie!Anna/Felicia/Eileen scenes.  Just enough camp, while also driving the story forward.  I’ve got to believe the three performers had a blast with that.  

[Aymery]

2 hours ago, jsbt said:

I am! I think Rory was the most recent in a long line of excuses to slow-walk this romance. I think it's absolutely true that they intended to try Spencer with Trina from the jump when they hired Chavez, but I also think they didn't know what they had at first (and I also am among those who thought Chavez was a bit green early on despite having charisma). I think if they could've moved him to Joss or another white girl then they would've. They found themselves at a disadvantage online plus they were dealing with other issues at the show (Steve Burton, COVID, etc). I frankly think they have been partly hoping to run out the clock on Chavez's contract to see if they can elide the interracial issue as much as possible until he leaves. They have a popular young pairing they have clearly been scared of, and Trina and Spencer are both characters who were initially intended to be the B-players or 'ethnic' sidekicks to Joss and other white leads. Trina still often fills that role for Joss.

This is a mold of the canvas Frank has pursued again and again at this show because it served him well at another show. The last time he saw true success in moving youth demographic numbers, once the most prized commodity of all under the Brian Frons regime (and the last time soaps held any real agency at Disney/ABC), was around 15 years ago. On that canvas, young white teen leads were showcased with their caring and kind Latino and Black friends who, while played by more talented and often popular performers, almost never had major A-story and spent most of their time clucking over their white friends' problems and romantic foibles. On that same canvas, an attempt at frontburner LGBTQ story was met with conservative backlash and a drop in crucial numbers for survival. FV's solution to this was to fire the gay characters, fire several performers of color and add three new young white men as part of a unit, all to be paired with young white women. We could've stopped when this started sounding familiar, but here we are. Soaps have gone from subsistence to survival and back again, and sadly now they just want to hold on to what little they have left. GH is doing a lot better quality-wise now than it has in a while, but it's still got a lot of bad shit on everyday. That's because of the mentality, and that IMO is why Frank still leans on the old mindset and concepts of what the storylines and focus should be from prior jobs back when the money and attention was a little more plentiful.

I could get into the Cameron of it all and how Frank also has a history of devaluing popular young leading men who don't fit into a specific hardbody mold, or the bizarre Lucas situation in recent years, but that's more detail than is required. I think if William Lipton isn't paired with specific stars and delivering what he needs in that zone then FV has shown little commitment to him and is happy to let him stay off contract. The upshot is these days I have no reason to trust GH until GH delivers, and they haven't delivered adequately in particular for Black characters or minority storylines in general in a long time. (And yes, the lack of contract Wu characters is nuts especially given the likely Oscar results on ABC next weekend.) I'm happy they've made it official with Spencer and Trina, but everything hinges on whether they deliver going forward.

You raise a good point about the fate of past gay couples on ABC soaps under Frank Valentini. Besides Kish who were unceremoniously written off on OLTL, in the early days of Brad/Lucas they were allowed to be fairly sexual. Then something changed (ratings? focus groups? executives? politics?) and not only did their love scenes dry up, but even their crucial story beats were shuttled offscreen. And now we have a situation where Lucas is not even on canvas, and Brad only pops up now and again as a talk-to for a character who's since been killed off (although they tried to position Maxie as his replacement BFF, we all know they will rather go to her more established friendship circles when it comes to it).

I definitely have more faith in Sprina coming to fruition than any improvement in the LGBTQ+ representation. I've just remembered that they did give us a TJ/Molly love scene in the shower not so long ago, so they're certainly not closed off to it. But maybe, as you say, they will only ever be supporting characters, better off than TJ/Molly but never going to get the same weight as Cam/Joss (a Hardy/Spencer pairing).

Speaking of Cam, I suspect his airtime is hurt more by the actor's schedule, than any reluctance to position him as the next generation's leading man. They definitely used to give him a lot of airtime in the past. But perhaps expecting that airtime to mean positioning him as a sex symbol is a step too far, given the actor's unwillingness to take his shirt off. (It's pretty glaring when they have pool scenes.) I mean, that's his comfort level and they absolutely should accommodate him, but at the same time it's hard to deny it limits his prospects to be showcased as the town's most desirable teen/young adult male. If NAC is willing to step into that breach then why not? Spencer's a Webber too, albeit by adoption, plus a Corinthos and a Cassadine by blood. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Aymery

[CeChase]

1 hour ago, slayer2 said:

I can see this as well. It still strikes me as so odd that the soap medium that used to lead the charge on social issues has become so fearful and backwards compared to the rest of society. I have often wondered myself if FV is just  "running out the clock" on NAC's contract so he won't have to do an interracial romance as the "big teen story" which strikes me as so wild give the popularity of Michonne on TWD, John and Evangeline on TVD, Gia and Nik on GH back in the day and MJ and Peter in the Spiderman franchise now (although colourism comes into play there).

And although Spencer himself is written as technically White the actor is himself is Latino as is MC and the original actor playing his Dad is Indigenous, so it's not the massive roll of the dice that FV may think it is, if that's where his head is at.

It's just so baffling that soaps like GH fell behind like this. But I guess as a poster upthread said we'll see how they handle Sprina sex and/or if they just wait for NAC's clock to run out first with impromptu, inexplicable faux dad hijinx and/or "daddy issues" clogging the drain instead of a romance many fans have been waiting almost two years for.

What an interesting and thoughtful discussion!  I wonder if Frank is afraid to follow popular primetime shows, because the daytime audience skews old, white, and conservative.  I mean, you only need to read comments on GH facebook to see what we are dealing with.   This isn't an excuse, I think it's cowardly, backwards, and frankly stupid, but this may be the reason.  

[slayer2]

7 minutes ago, CeChase said:

What an interesting and thoughtful discussion!  I wonder if Frank is afraid to follow popular primetime shows, because the daytime audience skews old, white, and conservative.  I mean, you only need to read comments on GH facebook to see what we are dealing with.   This isn't an excuse, I think it's cowardly, backwards, and frankly stupid, but this may be the reason.  

I do wonder about this because the lack of diversity in 2023 is really really odd. And I do think that nowadays people erroneously equate diversity with "adding Black people" but it is so much more than that and encompasses all BIPOC, sexualities, gender identities and abilities.  It's strange to see GH hanging on so tightly to such a small target audience when it's clear that many diversities enjoy soap operas and many don't engage in them as a result of the lack of inclusion. Lucas being a legacy character and gay and NOT on the show is a perfect example of how nonsensical it is. We seemingly have time for another Himbo of the month but no room for Lucas? 

Someone upthread mentioned Kristina, is she bisexual or did you mean from the perspective of having a half-Latino father?

Edited March 4, 2023 by slayer2

[DanaK]

[jsbt]

35 minutes ago, Aymery said:

You raise a good point about the fate of past gay couples on ABC soaps under Frank Valentini. Besides Kish who were unceremoniously written off on OLTL, in the early days of Brad/Lucas they were allowed to be fairly sexual. Then something changed (ratings? focus groups? executives? politics?) and not only did their love scenes dry up, but even their crucial story beats were shuttled offscreen. And now we have a situation where Lucas is not even on canvas, and Brad only pops up now and again as a talk-to for a character who's since been killed off (although they tried to position Maxie as his replacement BFF, we all know they will rather go to her more established friendship circles when it comes to it).

I think Brad and Lucas he was willing to go with up to a point because they were going to stay recurring and side players. And IIRC Frank is of course gay himself, as was Ron Carlivati. But I think the show is constantly trying to make allowances for internalized homophobia or bigotry within the audience base, which is toxic in and of itself. So when Brad and Lucas got a little too hot and heavy or a little too present, they opted to pull it entirely. Now we get the occasional appearance by Brad or Terry Randolph, or nauseating (for me, anyway) stuff like drag queen extras trotted out to support the 'fierceness' of feisty heterosexual Britt (one last time for those who know me well, Fuck Britt!). It's feints towards progressive window dressing.

Speaking of Cam, I suspect his airtime is hurt more by the actor's schedule, than any reluctance to position him as the next generation's leading man. They definitely used to give him a lot of airtime in the past.

I think it's both. At OLTL FV kept a core, very popular young male in the B or C position in the teen scene (and on recurring, like Cameron) after concluding he was not hot enough for the chosen young female he was to be paired with, despite the actor's extreme popularity with the longtime audience. Instead she was unpopularly paired with a Ford brother. I think GH tried Cam with Joss but threw him over when FV found someone he thought was superficially hotter - same mentality. And I think Lipton being on recurring, whether by choice or not, happens to serve FV's interests. James Patrick Stuart is over 50 and on recurring but story is constantly anchored by his availability because FV finds Valentin endlessly fascinating. Many past GH or other soap stars have been 'recurring' but still frontburner prime movers - among others, I'm not sure Kimberly McCullough had a contract at certain points in the late '90s. ATWT in its early 2000s re-renaissance hung the moon around several recurring players. The taping schedule can be used to service their showcase. With Cameron it's simply not because they don't value William Lipton the way they should, IMHO anyway.