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dubbel zout

S06.E12: Forever

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Liza struggles to balance without Kelsey; Kelsey strategizes with an unlikely ally; Diana and Charles both make moves for the future.

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I'm not sure I can last through another season. It feels like it limped across the finish line of season 6. I think that after Liza's secret came out that they should've wrapped the show up.

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I hated how everyone kept trying to convince Kelsey to stay at Millennium. They were all so selfish. Let her do something on her own! It's okay to try and fail. 

I had to laugh that the agent played by Michael Urie kept sniping about Liza's age. The actor is 39, so it's not like he's some spring chicken himself as far as that's concerned. 

So Charles proposed. Zzzz. His relationship with Liza is way too much work for both of them, IMO. And the fact that they're still working together when he's her boss is beyond inappropriate. Kelsey should have left and taken Liza with her. They're a legit good team.

Diana's wedding necklace was gorgeous, if another neck breaker, heh. 

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Oh man, what would I do for that burgundy pantsuit (and the turquoise jewelry to go with it)! Diana rocked the whole episode both fashion and otherwise. I'm so glad she had a great wedding (despite Mama's premonitions) and we were spared the usual sitcom shenanigans when it comes to wedding scenes.

Of course Kelsey's not allowed to leave, just like Liza was not allowed to leave - this is Lady Edith all over again. And where exactly is Kelsey getting the money to buy those shares from Charles? Even if she made good money for the split second as publisher that should not be enough - considering that she splurges a lot on her questionable wardrobe. 

I hated the scene with the fey agent. Both Liza and Diana were written as clueless dimwits in order to underline Kelsey's business acumen. Kelsey was never the genius the show tries to sell to us. She was good - when she wasn't making disastrous mistakes. Case in point: asking Maggie for advice AND follow through with it. Poor Debbie Mazar is stuck with plots of Maggie giving stupid advice or having to deal with creeps. 

Speaking of creepy and/or stupid: why was Lauren dropping her panties before straddling the ice toilet? I don't want to really think about her reasons or the reasons she got stuck, ewww and ouch.

And the big cliffhanger is that Charles proposes and because his timing is impeccable it just happens after another emotionally loaded scene with Josh. I guess next season we'll see Infinitely 21 lady make a move for Josh. And Liza is probably doing a runaway bride around mid-season *sigh*

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I am sorry, but is this leaving the company and coming back a hot second later supposed to be a regular series finale 'treat' now? Ridicculous.

As much as the Kelsey story annozed me, it was great to highlight in the meeting with Redmond that Liza on her own, even after years of living the Millenial life, does not really get what millenials want.

Everything about the wedding and Maggie and Lauren trying to sabotage Enzo's godfather's scultpure was great. Diana looked stunning.

The Love triangle? Exhausting. The writing for Liza, Charles and Josh has been sooo poor this season. Squeezing Josh into so many storylines that he didn't belong in this season, has made him even more annoying to me. If they had given him a proper story that had shifted towards Liza in the last few episodes, but no. Its like picking a scabbed wound over and over again, it will never heal and leave a scar.

1 minute ago, MissLucas said:

Of course Kelsey's not allowed to leave, just like Liza was not allowed to leave - this is Lady Edith all over again. And where exactly is Kelsey getting the money to buy those shares from Charles? Even if she made good money for the split second as publisher that should not be enough - considering that she splurges a lot on her questionable wardrobe.

As fas as I understood it, Charles - brilliant business man that he is - is going to just hand Kelsey some of his shares. Not bad for someone who a few weeks ago couldn't pay his employees.

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16 minutes ago, Aulty said:

As fas as I understood it, Charles - brilliant business man that he is - is going to just hand Kelsey some of his shares. Not bad for someone who a few weeks ago couldn't pay his employees.

Please, someone, help explain what happened with Millenial and Empirical and Mercury.  Charles took out a $750K second mortgage on his house to fund the publishing of that book that Mercury snagged.  Then all those shenanigans happened in order to keep Charles IN EXACTLY THE SAME POSITION HE IS IN NOW vis running the company and Liza.  I think that something was sold for $1 to someone?  But Charles still has shares in something from the past, which means it must be Empirical, and the shares are apparently meaningful.  It appears that neither Zane nor Charles are working for Mercury, so what happened to that book, and the company, and Charles' money?  And Empirical couldn't even meet payroll recently, so with no new investors, how are they magically staying afloat?

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Was that the season finale?

Random observations:

  • Didn't last week's episode end with Liza, after having written a "Dear John" letter to Josh and being questioned by him as to who she loves,  then writing a "Dear John" letter to Charles, similar to what she wrote to Josh but flipping who she was writing it to?  But now everything appears to be normal with her and Charles and we never heard anything about a letter.
  • Liza's rushing to get Kelsey's resignation letter back really shows how little she thinks about Kelsey's decision-making ability and personal agency...yet we've just got to get Kelsey back at Empirical!
  • Really and truly the wardrobe folks detest Hilary Duff.  That gold puffy blouse was so incredibly awful on her, and she wore that to make her publishing company pitches?
  • Her credibility in the publishing world, which was already razor thin after the social media posting gaffe, must be at negative numbers now, since she went to all these people to try to get funding to start her own company, but a few days later went back to Empirical. 
  • That conversation with Zane in the park was whack.  She was asking about his professional opinion, and I actually thought he was making a lot of sense with what he was saying.  Then he said, "I know what you're capable of and not capable of" and I was looking forward to hearing his analysis, but he basically moved straight into a personal discussion of her in terms of their relationship.  She's a flake and he's a major backstabber so I guess they deserve each other!  
  • No way would Enzo's uncle have been making an ice sculpture to be the centerpiece at the wedding, with NO oversight from Lauren or Liza.  Plus it was really odd how that little sculpture and the big one were just sitting out in his workspace, yet they were ice, but there was no cooling mechanism.
  • Loved how the color of Liza's yellow dress looked on her, and how Diana's purple pantsuit looked on her.
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39 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

Was that the season finale?

Random observations:

  • Didn't last week's episode end with Liza, after having written a "Dear John" letter to Josh and being questioned by him as to who she loves,  then writing a "Dear John" letter to Charles, similar to what she wrote to Josh but flipping who she was writing it to?  But now everything appears to be normal with her and Charles and we never heard anything about a letter.
  • Liza's rushing to get Kelsey's resignation letter back really shows how little she thinks about Kelsey's decision-making ability and personal agency...yet we've just got to get Kelsey back at Empirical!
  • Really and truly the wardrobe folks detest Hilary Duff.  That gold puffy blouse was so incredibly awful on her, and she wore that to make her publishing company pitches?
  • Her credibility in the publishing world, which was already razor thin after the social media posting gaffe, must be at negative numbers now, since she went to all these people to try to get funding to start her own company, but a few days later went back to Empirical. 
  • That conversation with Zane in the park was whack.  She was asking about his professional opinion, and I actually thought he was making a lot of sense with what he was saying.  Then he said, "I know what you're capable of and not capable of" and I was looking forward to hearing his analysis, but he basically moved straight into a personal discussion of her in terms of their relationship.  She's a flake and he's a major backstabber so I guess they deserve each other!  
  • No way would Enzo's uncle have been making an ice sculpture to be the centerpiece at the wedding, with NO oversight from Lauren or Liza.  Plus it was really odd how that little sculpture and the big one were just sitting out in his workspace, yet they were ice, but there was no cooling mechanism.
  • Loved how the color of Liza's yellow dress looked on her, and how Diana's purple pantsuit looked on her.

Kelsey wrote the letter to Charles. Not Liza They tried to fake out the viewers before revealing Kelsey was writing. 

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Diana was divorced before, right? I faintly remember a reference to an ex-husband. Just wondering if this was her first wedding. 

My husband walked into our bedroom just when the camera panned at Enzo standing at the altar, and his first words were, "Why is Scaramucci there?!" 

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So I watched it: first full ep I've seen this season.

Kelsey, still dressing ugly.  

Liza, still dithering about the men in her life.

Kelsey: Find a new stylist! Liza: Pick one or dump 'em both!  "Even" Carrie Bradshaw had more sense than this.  Well, eventually.

Debi's Maggie remains the best thing about this show, and Miriam's Diana is the de facto hero of the saga.  Why?  Because heroes change & grow, and she did.

Wow I'm super-glad I spent this season watching Friends reruns.  It doesn't make me sad to realize that.  And I loved this series when it began!! 

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2 hours ago, slowpoked said:

Diana was divorced before, right? I faintly remember a reference to an ex-husband.

Yes. Her husband came out to her, and that's why they divorced. Or she walked in on him in bed with another man, I can't remember. He was gay, that was the main thing.

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3 hours ago, Claudia Kishi said:

They tried to fake out the viewers

Speaking of faking out, in last week's preview, they had a scene where it looked like Josh was running to catch Liza inside the church. Turns out, he was just a little late and he was Lauren's plus one. 

I remember reading an article during the earlier seasons where it called Younger TV's best kept secret. I agree then. Not so much now. 

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Diana looked so elegant and chic at her wedding. So glad they didn't let Lauren put her in a clown suit. It was the look I was going for at my own (and hopefully) achieved.

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As much as I love the Josh character, I don't want him with Liza. Probably an unpopular opinion, but that's just how I feel, and I'm afraid they're heading for a series ending where Josh and Liza reunite and raise the Irish girl's baby together.

Edited by NeenerNeener
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I bet they will end it with Liza choosing herself (shades of Kelly Taylor).

It was a nice callback to the tattoo.  I liked the show much better back when it was "Younger" before it became "Adulting at a publishing house."

Diana Trout is the best.

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The way this show treats publishing and money is just mind-boggling. Charles mortgaged his house so Mercury could pay an $800k advance for a book but... then what? Who was paying for the book to be edited, printed, marketed and distributed? I know it rolled into Millenial/Empirical so it didn't end up mattering but what was their actual business plan before that? And then Kelsey just wanted to start her own publishing house with absolutely no money? And she was... pitching for investors? I think? But then how would that be "her" publishing house, if all the money was someone else's? Or was she pitching for books, in which case of course everyone was going to say no.

I know, I know, I shouldn't think too much about it but GAH! 

No mention of Claire and Gemma at all in this finale - so I'm guessing Claire did actually stay in NY because Josh franchised Inkburg, and it was actually all addressed with one line? So lazy. It's all gotten so lazy and repetitive. I wonder who's going to nearly leave Empirical next season - it's Diana's turn, I'm guessing. 

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Diana got a nice wedding and is super happy with Enzo, so thats all I can ask for at this point. I was worried we would get some sitcom hijjinks or the love triangle/Kelsey drama would interrupt things, but with only a few wacky moments and Italian stereotypes, we managed to get them married without incident. 

Lauren taking off her underwear to sit on the ice toilet was just...stupid and gross and just took me out of the episode. Its like that episode where the guy that Liza liked turned out to be fucking his sheep, its nasty and weird and turns this show from what is usually grounded in some kind of reality at least into some kind of "edgy" adult cartoon show. 

I am already dreading spending all of next season watching Liza get ready to marry Charles, only for her to go all runaway bride to run off with Josh. 

Of course Kelsey cant actually leave Millennial, nobody can! I have no idea how this show thinks publishing works, or why Kelsey is apparently so amazing that they cant possibly exist without her. She has good instincts, and is an actual Millennial, but, as was pointed out in the episode, she has very little experience actually running a company, and when she did get the opportunity, she made a big gaffe, and had to step down. And now she resigned from her company and went back again in a really short amount of time after partnering with a woman who she has screwed over publicly, and vice versa. I dont know if she would have a very good reputation in the publishing world by this point.

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1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I have no idea how this show thinks publishing works, or why Kelsey is apparently so amazing that they cant possibly exist without her. She has good instincts, and is an actual Millennial, but, as was pointed out in the episode, she has very little experience actually running a company, and when she did get the opportunity, she made a big gaffe, and had to step down.

In real life, these combined companies would have no authors or investors and stockholders would be running for the hills. Also, staff would spend more time sending out resumes than actually working.  The companies' senior management (outside of Diana for the most part) have a lot of personal/professional baggage that the whole world knows about; they'd almost certainly be considered laughable toxicity in the real publishing industry, even Diana for choosing to stay there. 😞

Edited by Winston Wolfe
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7 hours ago, Claudia Kishi said:

Kelsey wrote the letter to Charles. Not Liza They tried to fake out the viewers before revealing Kelsey was writing. 

Good grief...guess I wasn't paying enough attention!

3 hours ago, MissEwa said:

I wonder who's going to nearly leave Empirical next season - it's Diana's turn, I'm guessing. 

LOL!

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4 hours ago, MissEwa said:

I wonder who's going to nearly leave Empirical next season - it's Diana's turn, I'm guessing. 

She almost did already, no?! Until Kelsey gave her a big fat raise. 

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That ending was so weird. It isn't that hard to push through a crowd. 

Meanwhile, Charles could at least wait until they're living together to propose. Speaking of, what happened to that whole custody situation with his daughters? There was a whole episode about it, and I don't think anyone has ever mentioned it since?

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I can't even be bothered to keep track of all the ridiculous twists and turns on this show that eventually go nowhere and make no sense.  Even paying attention I still can't make sense out of it.  It's pretty bad when I'm reminded of the sheep fucking guy and wish the show went back to that rather than be like it is now with Lauren on the ice toilet.  At least I knew what the sheep thing was all about.  The Lauren thing just made absolutely no sense to me.  Even reading explanations here hasn't helped.

And yes to firing whoever chooses Kelsey's wardrobe.  They're dressing her like she's a size zero with no curves and that never works for a short woman.  I'm short and curvy and know better not to wear stuff like that.

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14 hours ago, slowpoked said:

She almost did already, no?! Until Kelsey gave her a big fat raise. 

The promise of a big fat raise means nothing if they can't meet payroll.

Which reminds me, how can Charles afford an extended trip to Scotland for two families when he spent his house on a book?

Edited by morakot · Reason: And another thing....
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13 minutes ago, morakot said:

how can Charles afford an extended trip to Scotland for two families when he spent his house on a book?

Maybe he has a  money tree in that estate he owns outside the city?

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1 minute ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

Maybe he has a  money tree in that estate he owns outside the city?

Haha! They sold that estate though, I think it was mentioned in the episode where Diana learns about Liza's age 🙂

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Isn't it considered bad taste to propose at somebody's wedding?  You'd be upstaging the bride and groom.  Liza didn't look too thrilled.

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8 minutes ago, Wavy said:

Isn't it considered bad taste to propose at somebody's wedding?  You'd be upstaging the bride and groom.  Liza didn't look too thrilled.

Yeah, that was kind of assy. Plus, it was clear it was spur of the moment (no ring, no planned proposal, etc.) and that's rarely a good thing.

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I hope Kelsey didn't have anything set in writing with Quinn before she did her "about face." The last thing we need is one more season of cattiness from that nutjob. All it took was one episode for everyone to be absolutely clueless when Liza has helped Kelsey make important business decisions several times when she was both editor and publisher? I don't know why it would've been so bad if Kelsey left for a short time - I'm sure they'd have written her going back to Empirical anyway but it would have added some growth to her character. Instead she goes from an editor to publisher to becoming a shareholder on the board? From an employee who, by the Younger timeline, has only been at the company for less than 5 years? Good one show.

I always felt as though everything would've been so less complicated if Liza had just left the company and worked somewhere else, but no one is ever allowed to leave.

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15 hours ago, Eri said:

Instead she goes from an editor to publisher to becoming a shareholder on the board? From an employee who, by the Younger timeline, has only been at the company for less than 5 years?

Meteoric rises in publishing aren't uncommon, but this one is definitely TV fast.

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Well. That was kind of a boring episode for a finale.

Diana looked amazing.

Kelseys dress at the wedding was awful.

They didn’t give Maggie and Lauren enough to do but I do love how hard they were working to save Diana from the ice toilet and not insult the uncle. It was sweet.

whatever was going on with Charles and Kelsey just confused and bored me and seriously why is Charles trying SO HARD to keep her?

I guess Zane and Kelsey are back on...snore.

Im a little nervous for Josh and the forever21 partnership. Seems like they have ALOT of say and might run over him. Let’s see how it goes next year. He looked really good in that suit. Sometimes I think I was team Charles in first few seasons because I’m a sucker for a man who dresses well.

Charles proposal was terrible and what is the ridiculousness of them just staring at each other across the dance floor? Do we really have any doubt she  is going to say yes for now but something happens with Josh? I mean this isn’t our first tv show love triangle people.

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26 minutes ago, MissL said:

I mean this isn’t our first tv show love triangle people.

It's not even our first love triangle on this show.

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Does anyone else watch this on Prime? I saw no scenes with Redmond, an uncle, or an ice toilet (now that’s a weird sentence). I only know about them from reading here. I even went back wondering if I got bored and distracted by my phone or something, but nope. Anyone else? 

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11 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Meteoric rises in publishing aren't uncommon, but this one is definitely TV fast.

I don't know diddly about the publishing industry but shoot, sign me up! lol

Edited by Eri
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2 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

Does anyone else watch this on Prime? I saw no scenes with Redmond, an uncle, or an ice toilet (now that’s a weird sentence). I only know about them from reading here. I even went back wondering if I got bored and distracted by my phone or something, but nope. Anyone else? 

Same here and bravo on you rewatching this episode. I didn't want to commit to more disappointment.

Never saw any of the aforementioned scenes.

Am I the only one that found Josh looking a bit haggard around the eyes? 

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Eri and Mobee, I watched the show on AmazonPrime. The scene was missing. I was  just online with their tech staff for over an hour. As a comparison, I bought the show on iTunes and watched. The show was the same length and was missing the scene. Makes me wonder what else I'm missing. This was discovered by chance in a chat with a friend. Amazon said they'd get back to me. I'll post here if I hear anything.

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On 9/5/2019 at 11:39 AM, LuvMyShows said:

Really and truly the wardrobe folks detest Hilary Duff.  That gold puffy blouse was so incredibly awful on her, and she wore that to make her publishing company pitches?

I really liked that blouse, and its romantic, Elizabethan era sleeves.

On 9/5/2019 at 5:09 PM, tennisgurl said:

Lauren taking off her underwear to sit on the ice toilet was just...stupid and gross and just took me out of the episode. Its like that episode where the guy that Liza liked turned out to be fucking his sheep, its nasty and weird and turns this show from what is usually grounded in some kind of reality at least into some kind of "edgy" adult cartoon show. 

Yup!

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18 hours ago, MoBee said:

Am I the only one that found Josh looking a bit haggard around the eyes? 

I noticed that too.

What the F was up with the tattoo storyline?  The tattoo that Josh gave to Liza, I21 wants to license and give it to everyone?  Was that Josh coming up with some bullshit just to test Liza's love for him?  One of the stupidest things of this episode and there was a lot.

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Lsk02 and Mobee- I'm talking to Amazon and iTunes. Their versions of Episode 12 are identical and both were edited. It's TVLand that is putting heavily edited scenes on those platforms.

At 6:56 after Zane and Kelsey talk on a park bench the video should show Liza, Diane and Enzo go to the ice sculptor's studio. Its missing from the iTunes and Amazon video.

At 8:57 the synopsis shows a small book meeting. It's missing from the iTunes  and Amazon videos.

At 11:00 after Liza and Charles run into Quinn in a restaurant, the synopsis has Maggie and Lauren going to the ice sculptor's where Lauren sits on the sculpted ice toilet. That's not in the iTunes nor Amazon version.

Maybe everyone should hit @tvland on twitter or facebook and ask why? I'm livid.

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2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I really liked that blouse, and its romantic, Elizabethan era sleeves.

The design of the blouse is not the issue itself - but its top-heavy and accentuates sloping shoulders. In other words it's not doing much for Hillary Duff's body-type (which is great - no critique intended). But since Kelsey very often wears flouncy tops with crew necks or turtlenecks I wonder if that might be HD's personal preference for whatever reasons. I think she looks tons better in crisp designs, simple non-fussy button downs and v-necks.

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On 9/5/2019 at 4:44 PM, NeenerNeener said:

As much as I love the Josh character, I don't want him with Liza. Probably an unpopular opinion, but that's just how I feel, and I'm afraid they're heading for a series ending where Josh and Liza reunite and raise the Irish girl's baby together.

I'm with you.  I adore Josh, and as as much as I used to ship them hard, and think they still have tons of chemistry, I don't want them together, either.  Josh is too good for Liza.  He needs to extinguish his torch for her and move on to someone who will love him the way he deserves to be loved.

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3 hours ago, drs18 said:

Maybe everyone should hit @tvland on twitter or facebook and ask why? I'm livid.

I don't blame you.  In Canada I pay a lot of money for the Amazon Prime account.

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2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I don't blame you.  In Canada I pay a lot of money for the Amazon Prime account.

Yeah I’m not happy. Not only do I pay for Prime, but I paid for the show! It’s not included and I paid for the entire season. Not cool! I also wonder how much more I have missed in every episode. 

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7 hours ago, drs18 said:

Lsk02 and Mobee- I'm talking to Amazon and iTunes. Their versions of Episode 12 are identical and both were edited. It's TVLand that is putting heavily edited scenes on those platforms.

According to this article, something like this has happened before, with Australia getting one episode without a small subplot.  In the article the Australian streaming service Stan said it was "the distributor" (whoever that is) that edited it out in the overseas version, not them, and that in the future Australia would be sure to get no more cut versions.  No explanation for why it was cut, though.  Weird.

Edited by Yeah No
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On 9/9/2019 at 4:07 PM, Yeah No said:

According to this article, something like this has happened before, with Australia getting one episode without a small subplot.  In the article the Australian streaming service Stan said it was "the distributor" (whoever that is) that edited it out in the overseas version, not them, and that in the future Australia would be sure to get no more cut versions.  No explanation for why it was cut, though.  Weird.

Yeah, we definitely got the ice-toilet subplot in Australia, but I don't recall Redmond being in the episode.

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Amazon is still trying to figure it out, but iTunes got back to me and confirmed that the Younger S6E12 that they have is exactly  as TVLand provided it, and TVLand is likely censoring to be viewable in the 14 and over category. Very disappointing. It should be labeled. I'm sorry I'm finding this out on the last show of a season I purchased. At least I know to refrain from future purchases.

Edited by drs18

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1 hour ago, drs18 said:

Amazon is still trying to figure it out, but iTunes got back to me and confirmed that the Younger S6E12 that they have is exactly  as TVLand provided it, and TVLand is likely censoring to be viewable in the 14 and over category. Very disappointing. It should be labeled. I'm sorry I'm finding this out on the last show of a season I purchased. At least I know to refrain from future purchases.

I thought it might be some kind of censorship given the "pussy stuck to the ice toilet" theme, LOL.

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On 9/7/2019 at 7:09 PM, Lsk02 said:

Does anyone else watch this on Prime? I saw no scenes with Redmond, an uncle, or an ice toilet (now that’s a weird sentence). I only know about them from reading here. I even went back wondering if I got bored and distracted by my phone or something, but nope. Anyone else? 

Same!!  I was thinking, "Did I black out?  I may have to rewatch."

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Awwww, I'm always a sucker for a lovely wedding. I'm glad that Diana got a beautiful, elegant, and most importantly drama free wedding.

I'm also glad that Lauren didn't talk her into wearing anything too weird. I loved the dress she ended up wearing.

As for everything else, ehhhh.

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This is a show that I enjoy very much.  However, and this is a big HOWEVER, I find Josh very annoying and doing everything in his power to put doubts in Liza's mind pretty much about everything. He basically pushes every button he can to manipulate Liza.

He shows up everywhere.  As a plus one with Lauren at Diana's wedding?  That took the cake.  He has done and continues to do everything and anything he can to derail Liza's relationship with Charles.  With that said, Liza was so wishy washy this season, that I wanted to scream.  

She started out as a liar, by lying about her age.  That lie has escalated to the point where I don't think she knows what is real and what is not.  I want Josh, no wait, I want Charles, no wait....and on and on it goes.  

I honestly don't know how they can redeem Liza and make her credible next season.  She told Josh she didn't want to have kids, yet if she ended up with him, she would be a stepmother to his baby daughter.  

 I think the writers make Charles look stiff because they want to be able to make Josh look like the cool guy and Charles look older and less fun.  And this is where I lose my faith in Liza.  She is all over the place with both men, and I just don't see how this will end on a happy ever after high note.  My wish is that this doesn't become a botched up disaster if, in fact, season 7 is the last season.  

Believe it or not, Enzo and Diana became the poster people for a solid, happy relationship.  Everyone else, and I mean everyone, are pretty much dysfunctional when it comes to relationships.  

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On 9/5/2019 at 4:44 PM, NeenerNeener said:

As much as I love the Josh character, I don't want him with Liza. Probably an unpopular opinion, but that's just how I feel, and I'm afraid they're heading for a series ending where Josh and Liza reunite and raise the Irish girl's baby together.

I wish!

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