S04.E08: Years, Continents, Bloodshed

[BellyLaughter]

8 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I'm quickly going from hating the twist to kind of hating Rob Thomas. I honestly don't think he has any idea what made the show work. Without Neptune and its people, Veronica Mars doesn't work. And not just because I wouldn't like it, I don't think anyone outside of Neptune would put up with this Veronica's endless supply of bitchy shit. 

I'm still stuck on being told this wasn't the finale we wanted but what we needed.....and this is coming from a fan who could never get past douchebag teenage Logan so never shipped them in the slightest (but can acknowledge their amazing chemistry!).  Came for the mystery and stayed for the snark.

I am really not sure about Veronica's break up with Neptune either.....I have strange feelings about the ending.  I love this show and I loved this season but I just feel strange about the choices made moving forward.  I can totally understand people's frustration.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

What offends me about RT saying that this is not the ending we wanted but it's the one we needed is how fucking patronizing that sounds, as if we don't know what we need and he's here to shock us into realizing that what we needed was for Veronica to suffer another massive loss. Sorry, no, that's not what I needed.

I know that this isn't a Disney movie where we are expecting a happily ever after, and I know that in real life shit happens. But killing off Logan, one of the few people who loved Veronica unconditionally, isn't what we the audience needed. It's what RT needed so he could take the show in the Veronica as lone wolf PI direction that HE wants.

I loved the original show because of Veronica's relationships with other people and her love/hate relationship with Neptune. Taking away all the characters we know and taking her out of Neptune makes it a completely different show.

I am a glutton for punishment so if they do a S5, I will probably watch out of obligation. But my feeling about the show has changed. I donated $100 to the kickstarter campaign for the movie as soon as it was up because I had total faith that RT and the cast would do an amazing job taking us back to Neptune. If they did another kickstarter campaign now, it would take a lot of convincing to get me to donate any money because I don't know what the hell to expect anymore.

I'm not saying that it's RT's job to pander to the fans. I just don't like how condescending it feels to be told that killing off someone who is very important to Veronica in the last few minutes is what I need. Veronica is flawed but I still root for her and I hate knowing that she has lost one of the most important people in her life because RT wants her to drive around the country solving cases for randos without the encumbrance of a boyfriend.

[luna1122]

I love Veronica. I'm cynical and wary of folks and have a hard time trusting and tho I'm 100% committed to my long term boyfriend, I don't like the label of marriage. I get her, in a lot of ways. And she's had a lot of shit happen to her to make her that way, much more than I have, so she's earned her cynicism. But damn, girl. You are not the only one shitty stuff has happened to. For instance: your now sadly departed boyfriend. Yeah, you had a bad mom and lost your best friend in a horrible way and your dad got treated shabbily by the stupid town. But what Logan went thru is arguably even worse, with an abusive dad, a murdered girlfriend who was cheating on him with aforementioned father, who turned out to be the killer. His mom killed herself. One of his friends turned out to be a murdering rapist who jumped off a building. Etc.

Logan was a self destructive asshole for a long time, but he tried really hard to get better and still see positivity in the world. V nurses her bitterness like it's some precious thing.  She lets it define her, kind of proudly. Sometimes I just wanna say 'damn girl, get over it', tho that sure won't happen now, since RT killed her boyfriend. Husband. Whatever.

And without Neptune and the people who love her to balance her out, it just seems like she's going to be a bitter, often kind of mean spirited P.I. roaming the earth. I'm not sure why RT thinks that's something we want to see.

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

What offends me about RT saying that this is not the ending we wanted but it's the one we needed is how fucking patronizing that sounds, as if we don't know what we need and he's here to shock us into realizing that what we needed was for Veronica to suffer another massive loss. Sorry, no, that's not what I needed.

After sleeping on it I don't really care about dead Logan. That said saying it is what the fans needed sounds super pretentious. No one needs a streaming detective show. Just say it is the story you wanted to tell and leave it as that. A lot of people already hate it when Hollywood types act like their jobs are super important.

Although another thing I like about the 1 year jump is it is kind of a callback to season 1. We never saw directly how Veronica dealt with Lily's death right after it happned (no greiving no  funeral, etc.) We just saw what happened after a year had passed.

[Sakura12]

The "What you need" mantra is patronizing BS the writers or producers say when they think we don't understand their vision. Which is fine it is their vision, but they can't expect fans to just accept it.  I didn't mind the season, but I know many would be upset by it. So many show runners don't understand why their shows are popular. They think they can do whatever they want. Which they can't as many show runners have found out, but still no one ever learns from that. Obviously they shouldn't just pander to fans, but they should understand what people like and not try to ruin it completely. 

Having said that I don't care that much about Logan. My turn around on LoVe may have been more on the actor IRL than the character. However I didn't think he needed to die for the story. They pretty much set up him leaving Veronica because she never wanted to really talk to him. He was the only one willing to work on their issues and his issues. I could've seen him tell her probably on a voicemail since she doesn't talk to him, that he's in a better place now and he wants more out of their relationship but he knows she's not ready for that and that's okay.  He needs to think about what is good for him and that is being alone figuring out who he is and who he wants to be. Then he's the one that leaves town or asks for more assignments in the military. 

The bomb could've gone off when she was busy listening to Logan's voicemail and ignore the street cleaning warning. That way it would've been more personal since it could've been her that died. Logan broke up with her and she could've died, so we will still have single bitter Veronica that also leaves town and travels the world solving crimes and trying to figure out what's wrong with her.

[blondiec0332]

10 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

So many show runners don't understand why their shows are popular.

It baffles me that after 15 years RT doesn't understand it's not just the character Veronica Mars that fans love but the Veronica Mars universe. Which is all the other characters and Neptune and all the history that comes with both.  I always thought season three was not as enjoyable as the first two because it shifted from Neptune to Hearst College. Which yes I know Hearst College was connected to Neptune but it wasn't Veronica's old stomping grounds.  I actually think the original season four idea of Veronica being an FBI agent could have worked. After an episode or two setting up Veronica as an agent a crime could have occurred in Neptune and she returns with the power of the FBI behind her. She could have found her way back to Logan or not.  But to have them marry and think they are getting their happily ever after is just cruel. To the characters and the fans.

Edited July 23, 2019 by blondiec0332

[festivus]

10 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

The "What you need" mantra is patronizing BS the writers or producers say when they think we don't understand their vision. Which is fine it is their vision, but they can't expect fans to just accept it.  I didn't mind the season, but I know many would be upset by it. So many show runners don't understand why their shows are popular. They think they can do whatever they want. Which they can't as many show runners have found out, but still no one ever learns from that. Obviously they shouldn't just pander to fans, but they should understand what people like and not try to ruin it completely. 

Having said that I don't care that much about Logan. My turn around on LoVe may have been more on the actor IRL than the character. However I didn't think he needed to die for the story. They pretty much set up him leaving Veronica because she never wanted to really talk to him. He was the only one willing to work on their issues and his issues. I could've seen him tell her probably on a voicemail since she doesn't talk to him, that he's in a better place now and he wants more out of their relationship but he knows she's not ready for that and that's okay.  He needs to think about what is good for him and that is being alone figuring out who he is and who he wants to be. Then he's the one that leaves town or asks for more assignments in the military. 

The bomb could've gone off when she was busy listening to Logan's voicemail and ignore the street cleaning warning. That way it would've been more personal since it could've been her that died. Logan broke up with her and she could've died, so we will still have single bitter Veronica that also leaves town and travels the world solving crimes and trying to figure out what's wrong with her.

I like this and would prefer it but I think just from reading interviews that Rob felt he had to kill Logan. People would still be asking where he was and it seems like Rob just didn't want to tell the LoVe story anymore. The only way to do that is take Logan off the board permanently. It's a decision that probably is going to bite him in the ass. I'll still give it a chance if they make any more but it seems like there are many that won't.

[Affogato]

I’ve been watching IZombie. Thing is it doesn’t show a lot of growth for RT. Good guest stars, often from his other shows—you could see this in season 4 of Vm. Mysteries are written to illustrate some part of the ongoing arc and are not usually memorable (except for the brain recipe they inspire). It is funny and it relies on the characters/actors heavily, and, in my opinion, that is it’s main draw. People want to hang out with those guys. So it is similar to VM but weaker and with less gravitas. Frankly the pull between Keith and Veronica and Veronica and Logan give VM that edge that made it a memorable show. 

He really doesn’t write good mystery and he doesn’t write inspired detecting or inspired research. 

In season 4 Veronica’s investigation was the same shit she did as a teenager. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Affogato

[sweetandsour]

Another thing that makes me wary about only Veronica and new characters in any future episodes is they're going to have to work harder to show other sides of Veronica besides the mistrusting, sarcastic, smarter-than-everyone-in-the-room aspects of her, and I don't know if the writing team can do that well and how often.  Maybe they can, but I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt here.

Veronica in her evolving relationships with the people she's close to and solving mysteries with some connection to herself and friends (which varied rightfully so, since the show couldn't try to keep replicating the intimacy of S1/S2) and her community-at-large - that was how we got to see a lot of her nuances and her dichotomy of being strong and a total mess.  So if you take that away and put her on the road in a place she doesn't care about, interacting with people she's just met, she may believably have moments of authenticity with them, but she'll never really be vulnerable.  Then how do we experience her fullness as a character?  Just remember the things about her the show used to let us see and think, "yeah, don't want/need those dimensions anymore; just give us the mystery!"  Or will they just use her voiceover to tell us, not show us, about those other sides of her character?  

Or do they not even want us to care about those aspects of her in the first place anymore?  I think a lot of people like smart-as-a-whip, persistent PI Veronica, but is that what they love her and the show for?  Is that what made her and the show special and different for people?  Or do they love her and the show for everything we won't get very much, if at all, in this new traveling PI world?  (Rhetorical questions, mostly.  For some, the answer is yes, just give me Veronica on her own, solving unrelated mysteries, but for many, it's not.)

Some shows do quite well with changing locations and a revolving door of temporary characters, but for shows like Supernatural, it's in the core DNA.  Fans like that, that's what they signed up for, and they still consistently keep ties between characters.  No one is doing it on an island (for very long).  Rob can redefine the show however he likes, but it won't be anything close to what many people signed on for, plus some broken trust with fans, so he can tackle those obstacles and see if it works out.  And maybe it will, and maybe I'll like any future episodes on some level, but man.  What a way to go about it.

[CerealKiller813]

17 hours ago, MojitoMama said:

Not Constantinople.  A great line by Logan.

Wasn’t it though?!? 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Kel Varnsen]

The more I think about it the more I think that veronica on the road could really work. I mean she pretty much had Neptune figured out, she knew who all the players were and knew where to go to get answers. Plus she had a great support system including Keith to work with and Weevil to save her ass. Between that and her actual skills you would basically need a Moriarty style super genius for the villain to be a threat to her (without making her stupid). Putting her in new surroundings avoids that.

Plus I am not sure I would want to live in California if I knew that a Mexican Cartel basically owned a Senator. Because with that kind of murder leverage it would seem that they do.

[rove4]

I never feel obligated to keep watching a show so I'm out for whatever RT tries to do next with the VM brand.  I wasn't in this just for the titular character, who I didn't even like all that much in this season.  It doesn't seem to me like she's grown or changed much at all from her high school days and, frankly, even if Logan had lived I wouldn't have had much interest in watching future seasons because stagnant characters are just not interesting to me.  Life is too short and my list of tv shows to check out is far too long to spend hours watching something that isn't bringing me something worth watching.   So maybe RT was right in a sense.  The finale gave me something I needed...an excuse to cut bait.  

[Deevee45]

The rumor for a long time since I’ve been watching VM from back in the day is that Rob and Kristen (especially Kristen) didn’t like Logan and the fact that he became so popular. For this reason, the ending actually did not surprise me.

[Sakura12]

23 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The more I think about it the more I think that veronica on the road could really work. I mean she pretty much had Neptune figured out, she knew who all the players were and knew where to go to get answers. Plus she had a great support system including Keith to work with and Weevil to save her ass. Between that and her actual skills you would basically need a Moriarty style super genius for the villain to be a threat to her (without making her stupid). Putting her in new surroundings avoids that.

Plus I am not sure I would want to live in California if I knew that a Mexican Cartel basically owned a Senator. Because with that kind of murder leverage it would seem that they do.

I agree, I'm for the new locations and change to the show, meeting new characters and either loving or hating them. But I know for some TV shows changing too much, too soon rarely if ever works out. People just don't like change on TV. Hence why shippers say they will die with a ship even decades after the show is over. When in real life people break up and move on all the time. I gave up on iZombie because it too much sameness. Veronica Mars has been part of my life for a long time and things have changed for me in that time so I'll watch things change for her as well. I think leaving Neptune and getting to meet new people could help her. 

However RT's idea for the show sounds a lot like Jessica Jones (that also starred a VM alum). A hard, sardonic and traumatized PI. 

[ramonaflowers]

I think I'm also out. I didn't enjoy this season. I hated the cartoonish Mexican bad guys. There were moments I enjoyed, but I kind of wish I had never watched this. 

[Melgaypet]

10 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

Yay! I never have to see Veronica play second fiddle in her own show to fucking Logan ever again!!

Yeah, I feel this.

I mean, I don't want to pour salt in anybody's wounds. Clearly, a lot of people are having a lot of feelings and I don't want to diminish or belittle that. And, like I've said, I have issues with the execution. But I also genuinely feel that the character of Logan Echolls had become something of a black hole, sucking all the oxygen from both Veronica Mars and Veronica Mars. (This is not a moral judgment of Logan as a person, so no one needs to feel like they must defend him to me.)

HOWEVER. I am not down for this 'Veronica takes her PI gig on the road' business, Rob Thomas. It's a bit of cliché to say the setting is another character, but Neptune is part of the DNA of this show. Losing that will do more damage than losing a character that had run his narrative course. Why can't Wallace be a big part of the story again? Or Weevil, since you keep hinting at that?

[spaceghostess]

Well. I was enjoying this season so very much and then . . . kablooey.

As someone who'd been okay with the Logan/Veronica relationship--especially since the movie and this season made it clear that he'd really been working on himself--I was perfectly fine with them NOT getting hitched, but also interested to see if they could sustain a marriage. The Navy was the perfect excuse to have Logan away 80% of the time and we could have seen Veronica struggling with that or not, whatever. She'd still be on cases and I don't think marriage would have dulled her cynical edge overmuch. Blowing Logan up was pure selfishness on RT's part and shoots the whole franchise in the foot. Which I think he kinda wanted? But his "vision" for VM's future isn't sound.

RT goes on and on about "noir," but taking VM out of Neptune undercuts one of the genre's great conventions: the city (or town, in the case of Western noir) as a character and the detective's cohorts and nemeses woven into the fabric of that setting. The lawyers, the stoolies, the obstructive cops, the crappy P.I.s, the corrupt politicians, the tough guys; VM did such a fantastic job of establishing characters to represent all of these. WHY does RT think having Veronica start over with a clean slate in new place after new place would be the least bit appealing? Noir P.I.s may be loners, but they have networks they carefully cultivate and rely on to do their jobs. Itinerant Veronica will never develop a network anywhere, and I couldn't give fewer fucks about getting to know new people every week when I was happy as hell with the ones we already had and trusted RT to add compelling new characters as necessary. I've loved Veronica from minute one, but not even the strongest, most well-drawn hero/antihero can live in a vacuum. And that's what RT's new concept for the show would be asking her to do.

When I think "on the road," shows like Route 66*, The Fugitive, Kung Fu, and (bleargh) Highway to Heaven spring to mind. The only great (for a while) on-the-road show I can think of is The X Files,  which worked because of the chemistry of the leads and the fact that the setup allowed for overarching storylines and recurring characters. And then there's the cliche the majority of on-the-roads have in common: "Stranger arrives in town, touches lives, and leaves . . ." which, no fucking thanks.

ITA with the idea of keeping Veronica in Neptune to explore the ravages of gentrification. That could have been great. Instead, we get Logan gratuitously murdered to further an agenda that will wreck the best of what RT built. He seems to have pinned all his creative frustrations on the presence of one character, so he killed that guy in the service of a fucktarded creative plan. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

*Apologies for not italicizing titles--that function's not working for me for some reason.

ETA: Star Trek and other space shows in that tradition are also "on the roads" (to me), but they work because your city/network of characters is portable!

Edited July 23, 2019 by spaceghostess
And another thing . . .

[xhoipolloix]

41 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

Yay! I never have to see Veronica play second fiddle in her own show to fucking Logan ever again!!

Trying hard to think of a single time when that happened. 

[gallimaufry]

I can definitely see the argument for Logan overpowering the show and potentially leading to a certain amount of paralysis.  Certainly, the on-again-off-again stuff has to be done and having him off on missions can only work for so long as Logan is such a popular character and it makes his absence so notable.  I could see other obstacles breaking them apart such as Logan or Veronica being in prison.  Or Logan leaving with their child because Veronica is in too deep and it's not safe: so much potential there for a dark echo of Liane's struggle with addiction.  But the romantic complications won't cut it any more (they were worn out during S3).  Thing is though... if the reason for removing Logan is to promote a different romantic prospect, has there been any other romantic prospect that has even nearly matched the spark of Logan/Veronica?  And granted, some of them will probably end up being villains anyway, but it seems like a real arrested development for the character to go back to, ironically, the soap opera, especially knowing that there's no point getting invested in any of these characters because if any of them last any time, they'll exit in a body bag.

Yes, it's certainly tough to work in Logan and it was evident here that there was a stretch to draw him in.  That said, I thought opportunities were missed; given that Veronica was investigating Richard Casablancas you'd think Logan would have a bit more of an opportunity to get close.  And of course, they have a stable and grounding force in Veronica's life through Keith but if they'd gone down the dementia route with Keith, Keith would need support and someone would need to step in to back Veronica up.  And then you have to wonder what a character as volatile as Logan would do if he was forced to leave the military; what would adult Logan's implosion be like?  On the flip side, what if the pair of them really used their talents and connections to try and improve Neptune - have Veronica run for Sheriff or Logan run for mayor?  Not that they'd win but it would feel like they're using their talents in Neptune for a reason.

Now sure, having the husband at home doesn't perfectly tick genre boxes but since when is that a bad thing?  Better the show is true to its characters.  In any event, arguably you'd just be swapping out Sherlock and Luther for Nick and Nora Charles as a template.  Plus, exploring Logan and Veronica in Neptune doesn't empty the options box for later: killing Logan isn't without merit as a potential plot and could make a great season 8 or something.  But now?  I'm reminded of Vince Gilligan's observations that writing shouldn't be trying to force an outcome but taking the next logical steps for the characters and that he seeks to get the most 'juice' out of every stage rather than rush to the next situation.  Rob seems to have gone down the exact opposite route, contorting the plot and characters around genre requirements and zooming forward without checking in with the characters.  Not so much cutting off a limb to save the body as cutting off a head to better fit in a coffin.

3 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

RT goes on and on about "noir," but taking VM out of Neptune undercuts one of the genre's great conventions: the city (or town, in the case of Western noir) as a character and the detective's cohorts and nemeses woven into the fabric of that setting. The lawyers, the stoolies, the obstructive cops, the crappy P.I.s, the corrupt politicians, the tough guys; VM did such a fantastic job of establishing characters to represent all of these. WHY does RT think having Veronica start over with a clean slate in new place after new place would be the least bit appealing? Noir P.I.s may be loners, but they have networks they carefully cultivate and rely on to do their jobs. Itinerant Veronica will never develop a network anywhere, and I couldn't give fewer fucks about getting to know new people every week when I was happy as hell with the ones we already had and trusted RT to add compelling new characters as necessary. I've loved Veronica from minute one, but not even the strongest, most well-drawn hero/antihero can live in a vacuum. And that's what RT's new concept for the show would be asking her to do.

Brilliantly said.

[AudienceofOne]

36 minutes ago, xhoipolloix said:

Trying hard to think of a single time when that happened. 

 I got nothing. 

53 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

RT goes on and on about "noir," but taking VM out of Neptune undercuts one of the genre's great conventions: the city (or town, in the case of Western noir) as a character and the detective's cohorts and nemeses woven into the fabric of that setting.

This is an excellent point and nails down one of the weaknesses of Season 3 and articulates one of the many many reasons next season sounds awful.

[kieyra]

59 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

When I think "on the road," shows like Route 66*, The Fugitive, Kung Fu, and (bleargh) Highway to Heaven spring to mind. The only great (for a while) on-the-road show I can think of is The X Files,

I guess we have to give Supernatural its due. But it also has a cast of supporting regulars. Or did, it's been ages since I was up to speed on that show. 

[blondiec0332]

17 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

In any event, arguably you'd just be swapping out Sherlock and Luther for Nick and Nora Charles as a template.

I also thought Logan could have been used to help Veronica and not hold her back which seems to be what RT thinks if Veronica moves on from Neptune to do what exactly?  Is she going to be driving cross country and just randomly solve mysteries when she stops for gas? Is she going to put down roots in say Sarasota and start solving mysteries there?  I personally think RT just got tired/bored of writing for the same characters (especially ones that had such a huge fan base with such vocal opinions) and just wants to take his favorite character elsewhere and write new characters. But with this being noir he is probably going to have the same characters (competing detective, law enforcement, helpful lawyer, shady but good guy) just different actors playing them.

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, Melgaypet said:

But I also genuinely feel that the character of Logan Echolls had become something of a black hole, sucking all the oxygen from both Veronica Mars and Veronica Mars.

This is a feeling I believe is created by fandom, but it's not actually visible on the show. I've been susceptible to that feeling myself, but when I go back and rewatch old episodes I'm surprised to see that Logan isn't actually on screen nearly as much as I remember. There are many episodes he doesn't appear in, and often his appearances are limited to one or two scenes, while Veronica is in every frame of the show. It's just that he's so memorable and he leaves a big impression even with limited screen time.

Personally, I think Veronica working cases with the Neptune backdrop, with Logan away for work and only appearing in a few episodes per season, would have worked fine and allowed for other characters to have real storylines. Rob Thomas's primary objection to this seems to be that he wants to write Veronica having flings with a bunch of randoms.

[redpencil]

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

Rob Thomas's primary objection to this seems to be that he wants to write Veronica having flings with a bunch of randoms.

Yeah. A Veronica on the road solving mysteries would inevitably include a lot of this. Which, no thank you. Not only do you jettison Neptune the place (as other people have said, a character in its own right), and the people Veronica is close to (maybe save a few cameos), you're setting Veronica up to only interact with new people, and never develop emotional connections with anyone, romantic or otherwise. Even if I wasn't invested in Logan and Veronica as a couple, I would have no interest in that.

[blondiec0332]

7 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Rob Thomas's primary objection to this seems to be that he wants to write Veronica having flings with a bunch of randoms.

And that would really be out of character for Veronica. Even though she is extremely guarded and doesn't let  people close I cannot see her hooking up with men she barely knows.

[apinknightmare]

10 minutes ago, stagmania said:

This is a feeling I believe is created by fandom, but it's not actually visible on the show. I've been susceptible to that feeling myself, but when I go back and rewatch old episodes I'm surprised to see that Logan isn't actually on screen nearly as much as I remember. There are many episodes he doesn't appear in, and often his appearances are limited to one or two scenes, while Veronica is in every frame of the show. It's just that he's so memorable and he leaves a big impression even with limited screen time.

I agree. IMO Logan and Logan/Veronica's relationship dominates discussion about the show, but it doesn't translate to actual show time for him/them. 

[possibilities]

9 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I don't really care about dead Logan. That said saying it is what the fans needed sounds super pretentious. No one needs a streaming detective show. Just say it is the story you wanted to tell and leave it as that.

Yeah-- it's bad practice to insult people if you want them to take an interest in what you're selling. I happen to also find Logan tiresome, but RT can't possibly be stupid enough to not think the character was popular, and thus he really should have framed his next steps as being excited to do x y z thing, and sell the hell out of that, rather than pissing on his most vocal fanbase.

The thing is, KBell is a big star now. He might in fact be able to sell a show with her as the main or even only recurring character, doing whatever the hell he wants to do. And there might in fact be a new audience for it, with her as the headliner. He might even think that rebranding it entirely would draw people in who thought "not interested in a high school show" but who might think "KB as a PI? Cool!"

But he doesn't want to say he was bored with Neptune and all the other characters and wanted a whole new show, and wanted to draft off KB's fame to get it by continuing to call it "Veronica Mars" and maybe even suck the new viewers into watching the old show after the fact, if they like the new one. Too honest?

It might be okay. It won't be the show we all loved, but it might be something else watchable. Not sure about that yet.

Sherlock has Watson, and it doesn't sound like he plans to give VM anyone. Maybe she will meet up with Leo. But everybody else seemed tied to Neptune. I guess Mac isn't, but I don't see her wanting to travel as Veronica's sidekick, either.

V might visit her dad and Neptune once a season or something like that.

Or 5 years later decide to go back .

He's leaving his options open this way. He can try the new thing he wants to try, and if it succeeds, he has a whole new show with a whole new life and more freedom to do whatever he wants with it. If it fails, he might be able to backtrack and send Veronica back to Neptune, a changed woman who is no longer running from her demons or something.

He just really shouldn't be shitting on his fans, and instead should have taken the approach of talking up the new adventures in a way that might actually build on rather than trash his pre-existing audience.

I really hate the idea of random hook ups for VM, though. It sounds more like he is thinking of James Bond than Sherlock Holmes.

Edited July 23, 2019 by possibilities

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, blondiec0332 said:

And that would really be out of character for Veronica. Even though she is extremely guarded and doesn't let  people close I cannot see her hooking up with men she barely knows.

I questioned this for a moment before I remembered that Veronica changed schools, moved to the opposite end of the country, got nine years of distance and built a whole new life only to ...start dating Piz again, and then dump him for Logan. LOL that woman is stuck in a loop and seems to prefer slightly different variations of what she already knows.

Edited July 23, 2019 by stagmania

[Clare]

I guess you could look at it that Jason Dohring is the only one that got a heads up that he was being written off the show.  I wonder how the other actors feel about the RT interviews that he wants VM to say good bye to Neptune.  I know Logan is getting all the attention but basically the rest of the actors won't be used or will only be minimally used in future seasons.  It all seems very messy.

[MissLucas]

So, I'm about to end this binge-watching session. They just got married and I could see the episode is going to last 10 more minutes. I've been around the block a couple of times and know what that means. I stop to go check the first few posts here. And now I'm off to ladidiladida-land, they're married and happy and I'm out.

Edited July 23, 2019 by MissLucas

[Deevee45]

I know this may be an unpopular opinion, but I’ve felt (starting with the movie) that the snap, crackle and pop that was Logan/Jason Dohring just disappeared. I was not impressed with his acting in either the movie or season 4. I don’t know if it’s the scripts or him tbh, but he seemed very drab to me on the screen.  I wrote in a previous post that Rob and Kristen were not happy with the Logan character, so I wonder if all of this is related somehow. I was rewatching season 1, and he’s so good and alive on the screen, that the comparison is sad. 

[Evie]

2 minutes ago, Deevee45 said:

I know this may be an unpopular opinion, but I’ve felt (starting with the movie) that the snap, crackle and pop that was Logan/Jason Dohring just disappeared. I was not impressed with his acting in either the movie or season 4. I don’t know if it’s the scripts or him tbh, but he seemed very drab to me on the screen.  I wrote in a previous post that Rob and Kristen were not happy with the Logan character, so I wonder if all of this is related somehow. I was rewatching season 1, and he’s so good and alive on the screen, that the comparison is sad. 

Even though I loved Logan, I never thought Jason Dohring was much of an actor. He had a spark playing the psychotic jackass role but that's about it. I thought he was bad in iZombie and drab as got his life together, Logan. 

[kieyra]

17 minutes ago, Evie said:

Even though I loved Logan, I never thought Jason Dohring was much of an actor. He had a spark playing the psychotic jackass role but that's about it. I thought he was bad in iZombie and drab as got his life together, Logan. 

I stopped watching izombie, for the most part, when they boot-strapped him in over there. But unlike Duncan, I loved the “original” boyfriend on izombie. (I don’t know if they had the izombie lead bang Dohring’s character over there, but I assume they did or they wouldn’t have bothered to hire him.)

Edited July 23, 2019 by kieyra

[Affogato]

18 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I can definitely see the argument for Logan overpowering the show and potentially leading to a certain amount of paralysis.  Certainly, the on-again-off-again stuff has to be done and having him off on missions can only work for so long as Logan is such a popular character and it makes his absence so notable.  I could see other obstacles breaking them apart such as Logan or Veronica being in prison.  Or Logan leaving with their child because Veronica is in too deep and it's not safe: so much potential there for a dark echo of Liane's struggle with addiction.  But the romantic complications won't cut it any more (they were worn out during S3).  Thing is though... if the reason for removing Logan is to promote a different romantic prospect, has there been any other romantic prospect that has even nearly matched the spark of Logan/Veronica?  And granted, some of them will probably end up being villains anyway, but it seems like a real arrested development for the character to go back to, ironically, the soap opera, especially knowing that there's no point getting invested in any of these characters because if any of them last any time, they'll exit in a body bag.

This is the only time I have thought it even remotely possible that Veronica could become like Liane. If Logan lived there she would be in Neptune doing petty jobs for people she despised. Logan would be free to roam the world, saving it and doing exciting things and expecting her to be is haven away from the excitement of his life, while she craved variety and excitement and meaningful growth in her work. Eventually she'd get pregnant and she already was using drink as a crutch in season 4. Logan, who has morphed into someone he wasn't in the rest of the show--the alpha male type, like keith and Veronica are represented in the rest of canon--would be able to ignore it and continue with his missions. Like Keith with Liane he would be away more and more. 

So, yes, I think it could go even worse for Veronica.

She is clearly severely depressed in Season 4 and probably suffering from PTSD (although some people never do and her way of confrontation seemed to indicate she was one of them). Logan, in the brief moments of quiet in his exciting life clearly did try to help but she didn't need marriage or an expensive ring or couples counseling (or other therapy with his therapist, which would not be a good idea) or talk about children that Logan could play with every other weekend.  Those things were things that Logan seemed to want. Logan has become perfect. Logan seemed to be aware she might be depressed. But he didn't really seem to be seeing her.

I found the representation of Veronica in this season painful, particularly since we didn't get any insight into her issues or why she might suddenly have spiraled (and won't in the new series, no introspection their, says Rob).  I'm guessing that some of it is just the frustration of doing the job you were doing in high school in exactly the same way your were doing it in high school. Logan and Leo both have jobs where they have had to learn new skills and are challenged by competition. Again, I don't see how Veronica gets to this point, but at least take a white hat hacker course and learn some akido. You idiot.

Anyway it would be interesting to see Logan try to help her pull herself together, to have him anchor their family while she took those opportunities that are popping up outside Neptune.

It would be interesting if these two, not on the same page and with few actual interests in common, could make it work. 

It would be hard writing, hard acting and could make for a really great show. 

Look, I think Veronica was better off with Piz in seaon 3. I think she couldn't tell Logan she loved him because she wasn't in love with him and he was causing her pain. But at this point I would have said, if asked, that they should sit down and really concentrate on the relationship, whether it fails or succeeds. 

18 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I can definitely see the argument for Logan overpowering the show and potentially leading to a certain amount of paralysis.  Certainly, the on-again-off-again stuff has to be 

Now sure, having the husband at home doesn't perfectly tick genre boxes but since when is that a bad thing?  Better the show is true to its characters.  In any event, arguably you'd just be swapping out Sherlock and Luther for Nick and Nora Charles as a template.  Plus, exploring Logan and Veronica in Neptune doesn't empty the options box for later: killing Logan isn't without merit as a potential plot and could make a great season 8 or something.  But now?  I'm reminded of Vince Gilligan's observations that writing shouldn't be trying to force an outcome but taking the next logical steps for the characters and that he seeks to get the most 'juice' out of every stage rather than rush to the next situation.  Rob seems to have gone down the exact opposite route, contorting the plot and characters around genre requirements and zooming forward without checking in with the characters.  Not so much cutting off a limb to save the body as cutting off a head to better fit in a coffin.

Logan was the one who always seemed like he would want to anchor his family, it would be interesting to see him back away from whatever he is doing and try to build a stable life at home  

I enjoyed your message.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Affogato
Too tired when i wrote it

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I don't like Veronica Mars. Honestly, as a character without context she is not enjoyable to watch. She is a bitch to those closest to her. Strangers are sometimes treated with more kindness, but usually more contempt. She jumps to conclusions and shows no hesitancy in accusing friends and family of crappy things. 

What made Veronica likable was the redeeming qualities we saw through the eyes of Keith, Wallace, Mac, Weevil, Piz, and Logan. Keith and Veronica are a wonderful parent-child relationship in their dysfunction. Keith desperately wants Veronica to not be like him and Veronica clearly had hero worship for Keith. She wouldn't wax poetic about how amazing her father is, but she lived her life imitating him. 

Wallace, Mac, and Weevil showed us Veronica was capable of having friends even when she wasn't being a good friend. They each pushed her outside of her comfort zone at times and challenged her beliefs. As it was mentioned upthread, it was great that there was never even a hint of attraction between Wallace and Veronica. I rewatched some of S3 before S4. Veronica didn't make friends easily because her first impression was usually accusing someone of something and then choking on crow. Veronica was at least somewhat human with Wallace and Mac. 

Logan was probably the character who redeemed Veronica consistently. They both shared some pretty screwed up childhoods, but in my eyes, at times it helped them understand each other. They both suffered from quick assumptions and brutal accusations. They shouldn't have worked, yet I couldn't see them working with someone else. Piz and Veronica weren't going anywhere. Logan wasn't going to settle with a kindergarten teacher. Logan was with a messed up popstar in the movie. The voicemail Logan left for his therapist describing Veronica explains why they worked. He saw her in a way that left room for such potential despite her seemingly stalled emotional growth. He loved her despite the fact he had grown beyond her. 

S5 won't happen for me even if Logan miraculously awakens from a coma because RT gets his hands slapped repeatedly for the next six months. His explanations for the decision to kill Logan loudly proclaims to me that he has not grown since Veronica was in HS. The movie was a love letter to the fans. I think when the fans fund your film, you had better not do your own thing while flipping the bird. S5 was RT servicing himself because he shows a limited range in creative direction. A 35yo woman can't have a boyfriend. She either needs to be married with kids or single with a smattering of one-night stands. There were so many directions they could have taken S5 while allowing Veronica some happiness. Logan could have been out of the country for long periods of time on deployment. Veronica still could have traveled the country with Logan showing up at random locations. Heck, they could have been relocated to the East Coast. 

I agree Neptune played a huge part in Veronica Mars and her story. I'm glad we didn't suffer through NYC shacking up with Piz. Piz is the type of guy I date not the kind of guy Veronica stays with. I would not have been as upset saying goodbye to Neptune if we kept a few characters who made Veronica tolerable. Veronica is 35. She can't be paired with her father forever. Mac may not ever be more than a name drop again. Wallace has a wife and child now. He won't be road tripping anytime soon. Logan would have followed her anywhere and supported her dreams. Alienating Veronica has probably alienated more fans than RT intended. 

I don't quit shows because they don't end the way I want. I stop watching shows when writers service themselves or create convoluted drama. I quit shows because of the arrogance of the writers or their lack of ability to tell genuine stories. RT is losing me for both reasons. He wanted VM footloose and fancy-free which was story suicide and he isn't skilled enough to continue VM's story with Logan as her husband. 

Ultimately RT punished a large majority of the fans. He gave them what they wanted, but doled out a whooping by killing Logan immediately. 

[Affogato]

9 minutes ago, AnalyzeAndCritique said:

I don't like Veronica Mars. Honestly, as a character without context she is not enjoyable to watch. She is a bitch to those closest to her. Strangers are sometimes treated with more kindness, but usually more contempt. She jumps to conclusions and shows no hesitancy in accusing friends and family of crappy things. 

That is what i love about Veronica. Same character as Keith but people love Keith and can barely tolerate Veronica much of the time. One of the thing the show does consistently is parallel their behavior.

And she consistently changed for the better. Until this season when she got the role of Logan emotionally. RT appears to think— oh I don’t know. 

[kieyra]

22 minutes ago, Affogato said:

That is what i love about Veronica. Same character as Keith but people love Keith and can barely tolerate Veronica much of the time. One of the thing the show does consistently is parallel their behavior.

It’s also been her characterization since the pilot, IMO. A sweet and deferential Veronica would be a different show.

I understand the angst about Logan’s death but dislike seeing Veronica’s character being trashed as collateral rage damage. There’s also (IMO) some double-standard stuff happening here.

[tennisgurl]

Well...fuck me for caring I guess. Thats all I got from this ending. Fuck me for being a fan since I was fifteen. Fuck me for wanting to see my favorite tv heroine to find happiness. Fuck me for caring about these characters and being invested in them  and  their development. Fuck me for buying my Vmars books and shirts and coffee mugs. Fuck me for donating to the kickstarter for the movie. Fuck me for trusting Rob Thomas to actually not be just another hacky piece of shit show-runner trying to be "shocking" by killing characters off for cheap angst. Like I said back in episode one, this was my first fandom. LoVe was my first ship. It got me through some really hard times and now...I guess I was just a big dumb idiot because I was never supposed to want Veronica to be happy, I was never supposed to be excited about Logan/Veronica, or ANY of her boyfriends, because this was apparently inevitable. 

I just...what the fuck is with show runners and writers on TV lately? Who decided that killing off beloved characters for no reason, teasing fans with happy endings just to throw up away, and wallowing in misery porn become something to aspire to? All I can get is that I shouldn't care, and that these writers think its stupid that I do, even after so many years. Fuck me. At least its happening now, my teenage self would be utterly despondent. But fuck her too, right Rob?

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I am not trashing her at all. I am saying as a character she is not entirely likable. Making friends would not be listed on her resume. She has a quick wit and the relationship with her father is one I have thoroughly enjoyed. However, we can't pretend she is some saint. If she was a saint it would be entirely boring. The point of my post is to say that if Veronica was to ride around and meet strangers, she would not be as likable. What made Veronica less bitchy and more intriguing was knowing Wallace and Mac stuck around. 

My point is that RT screwed the pooch. He handicapped Veronica. If the next stage in Veronica's life is accusing strangers of crime while triple charging clients, I don't see it lasting very long. In S3 she helped the paper expose the locked room in the sorority. She jumped the gun and threw a wrench in a lot of people's lives. Eventually, that gets old. It also isn't noir it is an SNL skit or the Pink Panther. 

There is also no double standard. Most everyone in Neptune has some serious baggage. Big Dick, Beaver, Aaron, Logan, Lily, and the rest were all players in Neptunes' version of As The World Turns. I am not saying VM fell to the bottom of the moral totem pole. I enjoyed S1-3 and the movie. I know who VM is. I came for S4. I'm bowing out before S5 because everything I enjoyed about VM or which allowed me to understand her unlikable traits just got blown up or written out.

Edited July 24, 2019 by AnalyzeAndCritique
posted before thought was completed.

[kieyra]

@tennisgurl I’m really sorry, especially after

 

The Magicians

❤️

Edited July 24, 2019 by kieyra

[tennisgurl]

Thanks @kieyra Its been a rough time for me to be a fan lately. Its not bad enough that my newer ships are getting wrecked, they have to go back in time and ruin my old ones as well. 

The more interviews I read with Rob Thomas, honestly the more pissed off I get. The whole pretentious "I gave them what they needed" is just such patronizing bullshit, I cant even  deal with it. Like, oh wow Rob, before this I had no CLUE that people died and life sucked sometimes! Thank you sir for telling me! Its really clear that he and KB had no desire to do Veronica Mars again, but they HAD to do this season just to get a greenlight so they can do the real show they want to do, a sexy PI drama where sexy but cold PI Veronica goes to fabulous locations and she no longer has real ties to Neptune. But, like many other people have stated, the appeal of the show was never JUST Veronica, it was Neptune itself as a location, it was her family and friends and enemies and the relationships and history she had with them all. It baffles me that he seems to think that it was the mystery that made people tune in, that made them love the show and donate to create the movie and send marshmallows to network suits, it was because we loved the characters and the setting, thats what made the show unique. Theres a reason the most iconic mystery was the murder of Lily Kane, because it was the most personal to Veronica. As a fan, I feel like he wants all of us who loved that "half teen soap" he so dismissed to take a hike and focus on, I guess,   cool new viewers who want sexy bitter miserable but have we mentioned sexy Veronica, not us who loved Keith and Wallace and Logan and Mac. This show wasn't just mysteries, it was Neptune, it was the 09ers and the PCHers and the Sheriffs office and Vinnie and Dick and everyone else who populated this world. Without them, its not Veronica Mars. 

I especially hate the implication that a woman cant be a badass PI who succeeds in her business and also have a successful relationship. Real empowering message there, Rob. "You ladies can do anything you want and be totally badass women...as long as you dont get married and stay miserable forever! Cant have both!"

[Deevee45]

I’m not here necessarily to wish Veronica has a happy and satisfying relationship. She’s damaged, and the day she’s not is the day the show really ends. But I really hate the gratuitous killing of Logan which was done for shock value only and not because it enhanced the story. 

[RunningMarket]

At least Leo might still be single? Too soon?

Perhaps a re-watch at a much slower pace is required, but I found S4 Veronica to be even harder and more cynical than before. I'm not asking her to be rainbows and sunshine, but it was something that stuck with me through the whole season. I like sarcastic, quick-witted Veronica who can be caustic when required but this seemed over the top.

I think I just loved the movie so much - with all the characters being used well, the callbacks, and the seemingly tidy bow they gave the ending. This season was a disappointment in the end.

[mandigirl]

What an enormous waste. The end was sloppy, manipulative and eventually cowardly. Forget Logan (though I am a LoVe shipper). RT apparently didn't have enough confidence in himself, in his writing staff, or in the fans to believe he could move VM from teen to adult drama without having to literally blow up the original show. Scapegoating LoVe was laughable.

I never thought I would EVER say this, but I'm done with the show. I've watched every single episode, including the unaired FBI one. I bought 5 boxes of Mars bars from a freaking bodega in the UK to send to CBS because all the domestic sellers were sold out during the campaign to save the show.  That was love, RT, not LoVe. 

I have zero interest in Season 5 as it has been described. Best thing to come out of this is I signed up for Hulu specifically because of VM, and thankfully I still have some time on my trial period to cancel. 

[stagmania]

Regarding Veronica’s characterization, it was noticeably different this season. No one is asking for sweetness and light or even for her to lose her edge. But to see her 15 years after the show began, even worse off than when we met her - when she was freshly recovering from rape, parental abandonment and the murder of her best friend - is depressing and not a little baffling. Let’s review.

Veronica in this season is a horrible partner to Logan - she derides him for going to therapy and refuses to go herself, tries to force him to go backwards in his anger management, cruelly throws his proposal in his face and accuses him of manipulating her, entertains the possibility of cheating on him for half the season, and then agrees to marry him in a reactionary moment when she clearly isn’t actually ready, as evidenced by a simple text message causing her to immediately assume he’s jilting her. She still doesn’t trust him after all this time. 

Veronica in this season is an absent daughter to Keith. She’s so self-absorbed and wrapped up in her own self-inflicted drama that she doesn’t even notice his constant memory lapses. The most observant woman in the world doesn’t realize that something is very wrong with her beloved father until he finally fesses up.

Veronica in this season is a shitty friend to Wallace. She displays clear distaste for his domestic life, expresses little interest in his child or his wife and can’t even be bothered to pay attention and be engaged in the little time she spends with him. 

Veronica in this season is straight up awful to Weevil. She treats him like dirt under her shoe, like he’s not the guy who showed up time and again to save her ass. She forgets everything she ever knew about his circumstances and how that limits his choices and places blame on judgment on him that he doesn’t deserve. 

This is just not my Veronica Mars, and nothing in the writing explains this level of cynicism and hardness from her that would cause her to be this way to her loved ones. Why has she regressed when she’s spent the intervening years relatively stable and happy? Regardless, I’m just not interested in this version of the character, and it’s clear with Logan’s death that they intend to make her even colder and less connected to her friends and family. 

I preferred the Veronica who was hard on the outside, marshmallow on the inside. They seem to want her to have a stone heart.

[RunningMarket]

I also found it odd that Veronica did not catch on immediately to Penn's pretty blatant threat of retribution while he was in the police car. As soon as he said "IF you're around" and "My contingencies have contingencies" I knew something was up. I know she was still reeling from almost losing Keith, but her mind was always sharper than that. She came up with these pretty outrageous theories (that panned out), but didn't catch on to an obvious threat?

Edited July 24, 2019 by RunningMarket
Loosing and losing are different words

[JamieLynn832002]

5 minutes ago, RunningMarket said:

I also found it odd that Veronica did not catch on immediately to Penn's pretty blatant threat of retribution while he was in the police car. As soon as he said "IF you're around" and "My contingencies have contingencies" I knew something was up. I know she was still reeling from almost loosing Keith, but her mind was always sharper than that. She came up with these pretty outrageous theories (that panned out), but didn't catch on to an obvious threat?

I think this may be my biggest problem (among so many) with the twist, it required Veronica to suddenly become a moron. The guy makes several not terribly vague threats and she just leaves his unexamined backpack in her car? Leaving the backpack would have been too stupid to be believable from Veronica without the threats but he makes multiple threats and she doesn't think "Hmm, maybe I should worry about the bag he insisted on bringing?"

[Guest]

8 hours ago, stagmania said:

Veronica in this season is straight up awful to Weevil. She treats him like dirt under her shoe, like he’s not the guy who showed up time and again to save her ass. She forgets everything she ever knew about his circumstances and how that limits his choices and places blame on judgment on him that he doesn’t deserve. 

I agree with your whole post but this part in particular reminded me that I was really expected Veronica to give Weevil part of the reward money. They were only alive to collect the reward because Weevil once again saved her ass. Which he only needed to do because she was stupid enough to clumsily break into the hotel room of two Mexican cartel hit-man. 

8 hours ago, RunningMarket said:

I also found it odd that Veronica did not catch on immediately to Penn's pretty blatant threat of retribution while he was in the police car. As soon as he said "IF you're around" and "My contingencies have contingencies" I knew something was up. I know she was still reeling from almost loosing Keith, but her mind was always sharper than that. She came up with these pretty outrageous theories (that panned out), but didn't catch on to an obvious threat?

I agree. The shocking twist required everyone else to be really dense. Veronica searches her own boyfriends bag for clues but it never occurs to her to check the bag of the man she was certain was a bomber just hours before. Sadly I actually found that consistent with her character all season. 

Veronica may have clever ideas but she actually is a pretty bad PI. Her rushing headlong into dangerous situations worked when she was a teenager but as a grown woman she’s just foolish. She hasn’t developed any skills beyond what she had in high school. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Guest

[tennisgurl]

Even beyond my shipper outrage (how DARE they use a line from the Epic speech for this travesty?!) Logan's death is just plain old hacky writing, and the more I read from RT, the more I am convinced that he is just a lazy writer who cant be bothered to care about his own show. I mean, after everything he went through, everything he survived, Logan died in a stupid bomb that was meant for Veronica? On their wedding day? Its so cliche, its embarrassing to witness. I mean, its the same way Michael Corleones first wife died in The Godfather! The wedding stuff is basically a less sci fi version of Sergeant Calhoun's "most tragic backstory ever" from Wreck It Ralph for fucks sake! And the idea that "happy relationships are boring" is a myth perpetuated by lazy writers who only know how to write misery and snark and cant be bothered to learn how to write an actual relationship. Love is NOT boring if you happen to not be a total hack of a writer, if anything, it can lead to even more drama and interesting stories. If they just had to kill Logan, why this way? Why couldn't they have given a heroic death saving Veronica or Keith or some other people? Or tie it into HIS story, not just make him a throw away in Veronica's story? Or have him be murdered, and the next season is Veronica having to solve his murder, as a really morbid call back to Lily, and have her dealing with her grief while also working the case? Anything but this cruel and pointless end to a major character. 

Yep. Logan, in the year of our lord 2019, was stuffed in the refrigerator.

And that stupid freaking time jump, I am so over time jumps, especially time jumps like this, that just exist so that they can do big dramatic moments then not have to actually deal with the fall out. If they dont want to write natural reactions to the stories they write and use it for the story, why write it in the first place?! If they arent good enough writers to deal with this horrible tragedy, dont write the damn tragedy! Now unless they do flashbacks, which they dont sound like they will be interested in, we will never see Logan's funeral, never see anyone reacting to the news of his death, never get to see that people did care about him despite his flaws and his damage, we wont have time to mourn him before we just jump into Veronica being quippy and solving new crimes in new cities, which will just feel too soon to me. 

While Logan is the biggest victim here, I feel really bad for Dick actually. Not only did he find out that his father is both dead AND a mass murderer (and this is the second time this exact thing has happened to him with an immediate relative!) but the next day, his best friend was murdered. Now he has no family, and the one person who actually cared about him, Logan, died a horrible and pointless death. I wouldn't be surprised if next time we see him, he really is a strung out mess of a person.

Edited July 24, 2019 by tennisgurl

[weathered1]

It's taken me a while to try to process this. I wasn't originally much of a Logan fan because they went a wee bit too far with the "obligatory psychotic jackass" thing (at least for me). Over time, I found myself really enjoying the character because, while Dohring isn't the world's best actor, he does have a certain charisma (maybe even a magnetism) that makes him so interesting to watch, and he really did manage to do a lot to redeem the character over the years. (The Scientology thing aside, seeing him so visibly crushed by this even while he's doing his level best to reassure the fans is so sad to me.)

I also found myself drawn in by the chemistry. The relationship was problematic for various reasons, but I still bought that these two people would be drawn to each other and, in many ways, bring out one another's best and worst qualities. Perhaps RT and others (like KB) didn't anticipate the pairing's popularity and were even resentful of it, but the fact remains that the foundation was there, the chemistry was there, and it was built up over the seasons, books, and movie into something pretty great (imo).

So this "shocking twist" is many things - hackery of the lowest order (and truly ham-fisted writing that required Veronica having to forget how to use her brain), embarrassing, short-sighted, an inconceivable waste of boundless potential, and proof positive that RT is creatively bankrupt - but good writing it was not. The more I hear/read from RT, the more I've come to thoroughly dislike both him and his so-called vision for this show. He somehow demonstrates an utter misunderstanding of everything that has set this show apart, made it special, and inspired such loyalty in a very large percentage of its fanbase. That he also blatantly used said large percentage of the fanbase only to turn around and patronize us, slap us in the face, and blatantly insult us (by intimating that we're only interested in "high school drama") is so far beyond the pale that I'm actually gobsmacked at the things he's said. 

This isn't an organic way to spur Veronica on to new adventures and experiences. This seems very much like a way for RT to punish the fans for not liking what he wanted us to like, for liking too much something he (and KB) didn't enjoy, and even JD for perhaps doing too good of a job with the character. Why he - and other showrunners who chafe at viewers being drawn to situations/characters/relationships on which they didn't intend to focus - couldn't have just been grateful that something unexpected happened that managed to capture the attention of so many of the viewers and become wildly popular, I'll never understand. 

So his great vision for VM involves pretty extreme arrested development for his leading lady who is evidently reveling in not being able to move forward and heal, and in so doing, has become so hard and embittered and bitchy to everyone. He wants her to cut ties with everything and everyone that gave her dimension and layers and vulnerability. He wants to excise everything that made her special and turn her into yet another generic PI who is dark, angry, untrusting, and cold (but not cold enough that she'll turn down hookups with random guys evidently). That sounds . . . ridiculously unappealing to me. 

At the end of the day, viewers know all too well how it feels to be disappointed, but this takes things to another level. RT couldn't have delivered a bigger FU to so many of us in the fandom, while also confirming that he's a hack - there were so many ways to scale back the relationship focus if he so chose - many of which have been brilliantly detailed in this thread. I'd even go so far as to say that Logan had outgrown Veronica, and him extricating himself from the relationship and perhaps moving on would've been one avenue to explore, as would his job forcing him to be quite literally unavailable much of the time, etc. etc.. There were many good options here, and far better ones, than the one RT chose, but he wanted to burn the relationship and its fandom to the ground, which is exactly what he did. 

If there is another season, I sincerely hope that the viewers who stick around enjoy it. For me, though, VM has been ruined and I'm officially done with it. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by weathered1