S02.E04: She Knows

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, icol said:

When Nicole Kidman slapped Meryl Streep, I gasped. LOUDLY. 

Maybe I watch too much television/film, because it is exactly what I was waiting for to happen and expected so it was simply satisfying when it did.

I think I was screaming NOOOOOOOOOOO when Maddie let her in the house though.

[CynicalGirl]

I don't get the Ambien thing either. #1, don't people take it to sleep? She was at a bar drinking and it was obvious she was going to hook up with the bartender, then she wakes up the next morning, disoriented and doesn't remember bringing him home? This would imply she took the ambien before going to the bar, or while at the bar, and drinking on top of it. Which is prescription drug abuse, and incredibly stupid. Especially considering this has happened before, when she woke up in her wrecked car and didn't remember how she got there. (And there were flashes of her banging some tattooed guy in the backseat--at least I think so, I was unsure at the time) 

That incident would have scared me off ambien for good. In fact, I would never consider taking it at all after what I've heard about it and seen on tv. (See also: Roseanne Barr...lol)

[nb360]

2 hours ago, zobot81 said:

My advice to people who are no longer enjoying it: stop watching.  Because it's not worth the stress.

Thank you for saying this. There were elements in the first season that were hard to swallow - why is this second season being critiqued for presenting sometimes unrealistic interactions among extremely privileged and damaged people?

[zobot81]

Just now, nb360 said:

Thank you for saying this. There were elements in the first season that were hard to swallow - why is this second season being critiqued for presenting sometimes unrealistic interactions among extremely privileged and damaged people?

The show is stressing me out so much that I simply would not watch if I found it both incredibly upsetting AND incredible (beyond belief).  My advice is genuine - stop watching if you think it's silly or ridiculous.  Why would you stick with it, if you are not also entertained?

I mean, right??

I realized last night that about 50% of the time I spend watching a S2 episode, it's with my jaw wide open.  Like, holy crap...whoa...no....wtfffuuu-....o.....my...........gawwwd!! When Celeste slapped Marie Louise I almost fell off the couch.  When Marie Louise came back with, "What do we call that?  Foreplay?" my eyes nearly jumped out of their sockets and ran away screaming.

She's too much.  ML is toooooo much for me.

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I was cringing so hard when the  bartender strolled through shirtless in front of Mary Louise that I had to stop the show for a minute and then come back because I was dreading her reaction.

I could not believe he did that. He should have been hiding in the bedroom, anyone with half a brain would have known that. 

52 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

After this second Ambien episode, I am beginning to think Mary Louise may have switched Celeste's medicine into some other roofie. We did see her finding it in Celeste's drawer and it could have given her the idea.

It could be this, or it could just be that Celeste is being incredibly self-destructive to punish herself for Perry’s death. I would buy either. 

I find the idea that Ed should just get over it a few weeks after finding out his wife has been cheating and lying to him for years a little insane. He deserves time to decide whether he wants to try to save his marriage and Maddie is being selfish, again, by not giving it to him. Especially because she’s still lying to him. 

[BeatrixK]

11 hours ago, meira.hand said:

At this rate it may end up with her having a similar fate to her son, transforming this into a whole new kind of series :).

This is what I'm thinking:  ML is just becoming deliciously hateful.  And it's a mastery of Streep, really -- because it's subtle, and just not remotely overt in how she's worming her way in, but also making it seem like she's just a concerned grandmother/grieving mother...but MAN...how Streep is making this woman so insanely and easily hate-worthy is mind-blowing.

Celeste is dealing with a mix of grief/guilt/uncertainty...so I'll give her a bit of a pass on acting a little off her game.

Renata -- DAMN did Renata at the party explaining her mistake in marrying and then switching to 'ON' hostess...that was MASTERFUL.  Dern is killing it this season.

Uh -- when your kids are carving bloody pumpkins with knives sticking out of them..Houston, we have a problem.

Jane's new beau is either a reporter or some potential relative of Perry's...but yeah...something ain't right with him.

 

9 hours ago, CynicalGirl said:

I don't get the Ambien thing either. #1, don't people take it to sleep? She was at a bar drinking and it was obvious she was going to hook up with the bartender, then she wakes up the next morning, disoriented and doesn't remember bringing him home? This would imply she took the ambien before going to the bar, or while at the bar, and drinking on top of it. Which is prescription drug abuse, and incredibly stupid.

Having taken it before...it is a weird, drowsy, mellow feeling you get from taking it that, I guess if you mix it with the right thing or learn how to fight the initial 'Ambien Drunk', it is used to get high.

I could never get passed the 'I am out 15 minutes after taking it' thing to do the push through, but I know people who have.  There's no way to describe the effects of taking it other than you feel super 'drunk' and relaxed.  I always had to take it right as I went to bed, otherwise I was walking into walls and stumbling around because it's like it shuts off your brain/motor functions and you fall asleep at the drop of a hat.

[Razzberry]

That slap and seeing her eyeglasses flying was worth the price of admission right there, but the cherry on top was ML's comeback "What do we call that, foreplay?"  OMG, the old gal is quick on her feet, you gotta admit, and playing these women like a master musician.  Last week I didn't think she had a chance in hell of getting custody of the twins, now I'm not so sure Ziggy's safe.  Loving every minute!

Ed needs to leave Madeline in order to shake her up and save the marriage.   I still think he knew for a while something was going on.  A fling with Bonnie might set things right and be a two birds/one stone type deal re Nathan.

[humbleopinion]

While Nicole and Meryl are slugging it out literally and figuratively..Laura Dern  just nailed scenes after scene in last night's episode...

Admit you were on the edge of your seat watching her answering questions with the  bankruptcy judge...her nuanced facial expressions, her tone, her barely controlled rage...

Watching Amabella dancing with one of the twins in their matching gold outfits....your heart broke with hers....wrap up another Emmy for Laura....

[humbleopinion]

I'm taking a guess because I have not read the books....honestly...

If I am right then I will delete this post...Let me know!

Corey is an undercover cop....brought in to infiltrate the Monterey 5 by the cigarette lighter flicking detective...

Edited July 1, 2019 by humbleopinion

[Melina22]

15 minutes ago, humbleopinion said:

Corey is an undercover cop....brought in to infiltrate the Monterey 5 by the cigarette lighter flicking detective...

Why does everyone think he's suspicious? I thought he was just someone she liked. Were there any clues? 

[CynicalGirl]

28 minutes ago, BeatrixK said:

Having taken it before...it is a weird, drowsy, mellow feeling you get from taking it that, I guess if you mix it with the right thing or learn how to fight the initial 'Ambien Drunk', it is used to get high.

I could never get passed the 'I am out 15 minutes after taking it' thing to do the push through, but I know people who have.  There's no way to describe the effects of taking it other than you feel super 'drunk' and relaxed.  I always had to take it right as I went to bed, otherwise I was walking into walls and stumbling around because it's like it shuts off your brain/motor functions and you fall asleep at the drop of a hat.

Thanks for the info. I guess I always pictured it as people taking it to sleep and then "waking up" in a blackout state and doing things they don't remember, 

I suffer from frequent insomnia and sometimes I'm just desperate to sleep for 8 hours straight. A friend gave me a couple ambien a few years ago but I've always been too afraid to try it. I'd have to get someone to hide my car keys, phone and internet connection first, lol. 

[humbleopinion]

We are suspicious of every new character.....the coffee shop guy she took to the Otter Bay fund raiser had his fans...

[poeticlicensed]

I am probably going to get reamed for this, but even though Mary Louise is a manipulative monster, she does have a point. Celeste is mixing meds, driving, bringing home a guy and has no memory of it. How is that a safe environment for kids? I have driven in Monterey and  the roads twist and turn. Super dangerous. I recognize the situation is totally fucked up, but Celeste needs to get off the meds or be more closely monitored by her doctor. Also, when I was taking Xanax for anxiety, my doctor said no drinking. I cannot imagine mixing alcohol and mood altering substances and sleep meds. Recipe for disaster. 

[Razzberry]

He could be, or, as someone suggested, in the employ of Mary Louise.

I just can't get too excited about the whole inquiry into Perry's death.  It's too much of a stretch to believe they could make a case for anything above a misdemeanor.   Those stairs were an accident waiting to happen!  hehe

[Melina22]

2 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

I cannot imagine mixing alcohol and mood altering substances and sleep meds. Recipe for disaster. 

Good point. As Mary Louise brought up to Jane, imagine her driving Ziggy around in that state. No wonder Jane didn't have a comeback for that. 

[monakane]

48 minutes ago, BeatrixK said:

I could never get passed the 'I am out 15 minutes after taking it' thing to do the push through, but I know people who have.  There's no way to describe the effects of taking it other than you feel super 'drunk' and relaxed.  I always had to take it right as I went to bed, otherwise I was walking into walls and stumbling around because it's like it shuts off your brain/motor functions and you fall asleep at the drop of a hat.

I took it once following a long overseas flight home.  When I woke up the next morning, every light in my house was on and I had no memory of how it happened.  I won't take it again.  I'm wondering if Celeste is dealing with some kind of drug problem.  She mentioned the vicadin in a previous episode.  I can see how a woman in her situation would develop an addiction.

[Blakeston]

 

 

1

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I still don't get what Renata and/or Gordon do for a living?  (Someone upthread says Renata is a CEO - CEO of what?)

They've never said what their specific jobs are. But Renata mentioned in season 1 that she's on the board of Paypal, and this season right before Gordon was arrested she was talking about being on the cover of the #1 women's magazine in America for a story about the new generation of female executives (or something along those lines). She's got to be the head of a major tech company.

I'm guessing Gordon is an investor.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Why does everyone think he's suspicious? I thought he was just someone she liked. Were there any clues? 

He was extremely eager to meet Ziggy, and he's perfectly fine with waiting however long it takes to do anything physical with Jane.

It's entirely possible he's just a gentle, awkward guy who likes kids. But with the mention of Perry's father having other kids - and how reliant this show is on twists - I won't be surprised if it turns out he's Perry's half-brother.

(And I guess it would just be a huge coincidence that he's an expert on fish, and she works at the aquarium).

[Calamity Jane]

12 hours ago, howivesforever said:

Celeste said she took an ambien.

Well, sort of. Maddie asked her if she took Ambien again, and she just nodded. I’m starting to lean towards Mary Louise doctoring the Ambien. It all just seemed a little too neat, which got my spidey-sense going. 

[CountryGirl]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

I find the idea that Ed should just get over it a few weeks after finding out his wife has been cheating and lying to him for years a little insane. He deserves time to decide whether he wants to try to save his marriage and Maddie is being selfish, again, by not giving it to him. Especially because she’s still lying to him. 

Thank you. 

He has known for what, all of six weeks, that his wife cheated on him, and not only that, their daughter knew about it for months. 

At six weeks out, he is still in survival mode. Just getting out of bed, a bed he is still sharing with Madeline, technically speaking, BTW, is likely a struggle and yet he's doing it, along with working his job and helping care for Chloe. He is not being one bit selfish by not yet knowing what the hell he wants to do yet when he probably changes his mind back and forth one million times. Every. Single. Day. 

Again it's been six weeks or eight weeks - tops - since his whole world imploded, courtesy of his lying, cheating wife. WEEKS, people.

And guess what, if Madi doesn't like it, then you know what? She's FREE to ask him for a divorce which she should have done BEFORE she cheated if she was so fucking miserable she fucked another man. But oh no, we can't have that. We need Ed to be the big bad who leaves Madi after she was already left before. 

You would think SHE'S the betrayed spouse in this marriage, instead of Ed. Her asking him to tell her if he's going to leave already. Lady, you cheated on HIM. Every day that he is still there is a goddamned GIFT, but as always, selfish Madeline can't see that. It's like she expects him to get over it already. I empathize with Ed so much because clearly he doesn't want to leave his family, his daughters (and yes, he considers Abigail his daughter and has had a much bigger part in raising her than asshole Nathan), or the home he helped create. But how or why should he stay in a relationship where he continues to be so disrespected and so minimized and his wife, who cheated on him, expects him to do the heavy lifting of fixing their relationship?

He's bleeding out in silence while she's blathering on about a papercut. Madi is so damn selfish and immature, completely self-absorbed in her own problems, many of which were her own making (and that's including her lying to the cops about how Perry really died) and she's all but stomping her foot and looking at her watch, wondering why his timeline to either get over it or rugsweep isn't matching her, let alone given him an ounce of space to feel and process everything a betrayed spouse should get to feel and process. And a huge fuck you to Madi for (1) acting jealous over Ed and Bonnie and (2) fantasizing about Joseph when Ed turned her down for the sex that would have been all about her. As usual.

I remembering back to last episode where she had the momentary flash in the crowded school auditorium of it being empty save her on stage and Ed along the back wall. It's about damn time she SAW him, really saw him, but clearly, she's gone back to her old ways and as @stagmania, pointed out, she is STILL lying.

[angelamh66]

Not to nitpick,  but the person at the court that Renata met with is not a judge. It was the bankruptcy trustee. The trustee's job is to step in and take control over the bankruptcy estate (i.e. all of their assets) and preserve the assets for the benefit of the creditors. The trustee will make all decisions about settlements etc... for the duration of the bankruptcy.  The distinction might not have been meaningful in last night's episode,  but it could be going forward so I thought it was worth pointing out.  

[Dminches]

I would be very easy for Jane to say to Mary Louise “if you continue to pursue custody of Celeste’s boys you will never see Ziggy again.”  For starters.

It is disappointing that after a solid first season this show has turned into a weak soap opera.

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

Why does everyone think he's suspicious? I thought he was just someone she liked. Were there any clues? 

People seem to find everyone on this show suspicious, thanks to the framing of season 1. I recall last year many suspected Ed of molesting Abigail and Tom the nice coffee guy of being evil. It's kind of silly - this show really isn't about gotcha twists, the storytelling is pretty straightforward because the mystery isn't really the point. 

I would be shocked if they had Jane's new boyfriend turn out to be a bad guy or have any kind of connection to Perry. Not only would it be wildly implausible, it would also be a cruelty to the character that I don't think this show would engage in.

[anniebird]

1 hour ago, humbleopinion said:

I'm taking a guess because I have not read the books....honestly...

If I am right then I will delete this post...Let me know!

Corey is an undercover cop....brought in to infiltrate the Monterey 5 by the cigarette lighter flicking detective...

The book ended where Season 1 ended so none of us knows where this is going.

[poeticlicensed]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

I just can't get too excited about the whole inquiry into Perry's death.  It's too much of a stretch to believe they could make a case for anything above a misdemeanor. 

Yeah, I was hoping they would move in another direction.  

[zobot81]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I have mixed feelings about Ed. He just found out that his wife cheated on him AND that Abigail already knew about it, so he's understandably hurt and upset. He deserves some time to process his anger. He shouldn't be expected to immediately get over it or make a decision about his marriage right away. I think making a big decision while you're still upset is not a good idea.

But that's why I think that Ed and Maddie need to continue seeing a therapist regularly. They need to make progress, not just stay stuck in the same place where he's clearly still upset and she's anxiously waiting to see if he wants to try to work things out or leave.

I do get what Maddie said to him. If he's going to leave her, she'd rather know sooner rather than later so that she can either start rebuilding a new life or start fixing things with him. I understand why she wants to know, especially since it seems like he hasn't been very communicative with her when they're in the house at the same time.

I can't tell exactly how much time has passed since he found out about her affair (the first episode was the first day of school and this episode was some time before Halloween so it's definitely been less than two months) and there's no exact timeline for deciding if your wife's affair was a deal breaker, but he can't keep punishing her indefinitely.

Don't get me wrong - she did a terrible thing and he's allowed to be mad at her. But he can't keep up the (mostly) silent treatment forever. At some point, he needs to actually deal with it one way or another, either by leaving or starting to mend fences with her. What he really needs to decide is whether he can forgive her and trust her again because if he can't do both of those things, there is no relationship left to salvage. You can't be in a relationship with someone you don't trust and you can't be with someone if you're still holding a grudge. I'm not saying he has to do both of those things immediately because it takes time to heal a rift like this, but if he knows that he will never be able to forgive her or trust her, then he should just put both of them out of their misery and divorce her. There's no reason to torture everyone in their family by staying if he knows he can't forgive her.

You're basically recapping a conversation I had with my husband this morning.

Full transparency, my husband looks like an even more Sicilian-American Adam Scott, which makes me extremely biased towards him and every character he plays.  The fact that Ed's personality is frighteningly close to my own husband's (IRL...but less smug) -- and I'm no Madelyn, but I am a lot more like her the any of the other Monterey 5 -- means that  their fictional marriage problems are causing me a lot of real-world distress. To be clear, there has never been a single incident of infidelity in our fifteen years together, and yet the show makes me wonder...what if there was?  How would we behave?

It turns out, not very differently from those two.

While I do not forgive Madelyn for betraying my husb - (oops!) Ed, I also do not approve of his behavior in the aftermath of finding out.  I asked my actual husband this morning, "So, what's your take on how Ed's been treating Madelyn?  Do you think he is trying to torment her?"  He replied, "Yes. He's definitely punishing her.  Absolutely.  The part that I think sucks the most, though, is that he doesn't seem to know what to do next.  He should just leave -- it's not fair to her, and I don't think staying in the house is helping him figure out whether or not he wants to end the marriage.  Trouble is, he's been so consumed by his adulation of her, he really can't make himself let go.  I guess it's what you call a dilemma." (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist).  To further the gist, my husband said he would probably stick around to make me feel like shit, but not for long.  He seems to recognize that it's not doing Ed any good to be there.

Madelyn's relentless attempts to normalize the conflict by aggressively addressing the elephant in the room -- that's me.  I can see myself making similar overtures, were I in her position (let's get away together, more therapy, do you hate me, don't be mean to me, can't we deal with this and move on....you get the picture...).  She's betrayed her husband in a way that she can't fix.  But what she hasn't done yet -- and what I think Ed is waiting around to hear -- is why she cheated on him.  Like really.  Why?  Well, here's the real issue: Maddie's answer to that question sucks so much that I'm not sure she can say it without losing him forever. She did it because she thought she could get away with it.  She took her marriage for granted -- her husband's adulation rubbing the wrong way against her, "I'm not good enough;  I'm a failure; I don't deserve to be cherished" self-narrative -- that her behavior looks a lot more like self-sabotage, than a plain reading suggests.

Madelyn is right, the problem is with her.  But I don't know if she realizes the extent of how her low self-esteem played a part in her betrayal.  And for what it's worth, I do think that's what the therapist was getting at in their singular session -- just not very effectively.  The main difference between Madelyn and I is that I've been to therapy, to a decidedly more effective end.  But I get it.  It's hard to accept love when you feel unlovable.  And sometimes protecting that flawed sense of self makes a person do terrible, hurtful, stupid-ass things.

Edited July 1, 2019 by zobot81

[Penman61]

Wait, are we now speculating that Corey (Jane's new beau) is Perry's half-brother?

How, precisely, does that happen? I haven't done the math, but that just seems way, way out of any probability bounds...

[poeticlicensed]

2 minutes ago, zobot81 said:

Madelyn is right, the problem is with her.  But I don't know if she realizes the extent of how her low self-esteem played a part in her betrayal.  And for what it's worth, I do think that's what the therapist was getting at in their singular session -- just not very effectively.

Ever since the therapist said that part of Maddie's issues was her feeling of inadequacy because she didn't go to college, I was like, "get on that girlfriend!".  Colleges are no longer the bastion of the 18-22 year old crowd. There is nothing stopping her from going to college if she feels it's something that is missing in her life. 

[izabella]

I think the therapist was only half right with Maddie.  Yes, she feels inadequate because she didn't go to college.  But I suspect she also has low self-esteem because her ex-husband and father of her first child just fucking up and left her and abandoned their child.  To me, that's an even bigger reason for Maddie's low self esteem.  Much bigger actually than the college thing.

[Penman61]

1 hour ago, poeticlicensed said:

Ever since the therapist said that part of Maddie's issues was her feeling of inadequacy because she didn't go to college, I was like, "get on that girlfriend!".  Colleges are no longer the bastion of the 18-22 year old crowd. There is nothing stopping her from going to college if she feels it's something that is missing in her life. 

Yes! I teach at a college, and students Maddie's age are totally common now and welcomed because they're usually super-motivated and goal-focused and serve as excellent role models to the youngsters. Take my class, Maddie!* (Or don't, because not everyone needs/wants to go to college, amen.)

*Re-reading, I realize I sound EXACTLY like Tracy Flick. I regret nothing!

Edited July 1, 2019 by Penman61

[RedInk]

Really disliking both the character Mary Louise as written and Meryl Streep's hammy portrayal of her. In all honesty, I don't know if I would like anyone in that role, but this is just so Lifetime movie awful, I hear those womp-wooomp Debbie Downer-style trumpets every time they show her face. Here I am again! I've arrived, uninvited and clearly unwelcome, to suck my teeth and accuse you of murder and call you a whore and doubt your rape and steal your children.  But the real kicker is I AM AFRAID I'M SIDING WITH HER. It's a terrible feeling, sympathizing with the worst character in the world. But (if I can inject some real-world logic into this soap) they ARE lying to her, so her suspicion isn't completely unfounded. And Celeste is spiraling. And Celeste is telling her too many terrible and shocking details. SHUT UP, CELESTE. 

[CynicalGirl]

Re Maddie and Ed, I think another problem is, Maddie's affair was a year or so ago (?) so she is over it and has moved on. For Ed, the (knowledge of the) betrayal is brand new, so he is nowhere near over it. I understand why she wants to know his intentions but I think it is unrealistic to expect either a divorce, or things going back to "normal" in such a short time frame. 

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

People seem to find everyone on this show suspicious, thanks to the framing of season 1.

Oh yeah I remember all of that, which all comes across as pretty hilarious in hindsight. I remember people thought that Ed was molesting Abigail, or that he or Nathan were Jane's rapist, or that it was Tom the coffee guy, just about every guy on the show was suspected of being some kind of psychotic serial rapist or something with some evil master plan to do evil, and in the end the bad guy who raped Jane was...the bad guy who beat Celeste! GASP! That asshole we knew was an asshole turned out to be an asshole! And the kid who was biting Amabella was the kid routinely exposed to violence! I mean...yeah. Maybe its because its a show that features a mostly female cast and deals with rape and abuse so people start to suspect any man of evil deeds, or maybe its just because this show likes to be kind of weird and mysterious and lead us down weird turns before they admit that the mystery is pretty obvious. So I am not leaning towards Jane's new boyfriend being Perrys long lost brother who has some master plan, or that the bartender Celeste hooked up with is drugging her and working for Mary Louis, it just seems so melodramatic and twisty in a show that does not have a lot of big gotcha moments in general like that.   

Of course this season may or may not be introducing the idea that Bonnie's mom has psychic powers, who who knows this season?

Edited July 1, 2019 by tennisgurl

[poeticlicensed]

22 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think the therapist was only half right with Maddie.  Yes, she feels inadequate because she didn't go to college.  But I suspect she also has low self-esteem because her ex-husband and father of her first child just fucking up and left her and abandoned their child.  To me, that's an even bigger reason for Maddie's low self esteem.  Much bigger actually than the college thing.

I agree, but college may be a useful tool in moving towards regaining one's self esteem. I am a faculty member at a university and I have watched so many women (and men) overcome shitty situations and become empowered by education. One of my besties dropped out of college to have a baby with her jerk now ex-husband. She had zero self esteem but decided after her divorce to go get that degree at age 35. She now has a master's also and and is a counselor. 

[Chaos Theory]

4 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

I am probably going to get reamed for this, but even though Mary Louise is a manipulative monster, she does have a point. Celeste is mixing meds, driving, bringing home a guy and has no memory of it. How is that a safe environment for kids? I have driven in Monterey and  the roads twist and turn. Super dangerous. I recognize the situation is totally fucked up, but Celeste needs to get off the meds or be more closely monitored by her doctor. Also, when I was taking Xanax for anxiety, my doctor said no drinking. I cannot imagine mixing alcohol and mood altering substances and sleep meds. Recipe for disaster. 

Although she is right about Celeste she isn’t actually helping her but making things worse.   She sees Celeste as the villain in the breakdown of her marriage with Perry and refuses to see Perry as anything but an innocent victim.   Yes Celeste has a problem that was probably exasperated by Perry’s death.   The pills were there far before Perry died though so she has been taking them for awhile but ironically having Perry in her life kept her centered and alert.   It had to.  

It would be interesting if all the women’s secrets come out all at once.   Celeste’s custody hearing,   Madeline possible divorce,  Renata’s husband trial,   Jane finding a good guy,  and Bonnie’s inevitable breakdown all just happen just as the police arrest them for Perry’s murder.   What fresh hell that would be?  

Edited July 1, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[sashayshante]

I would love to see Ed with Bonnie. Their personalities seem to suit each other. Madeline belongs with and frankly deserves a man like Nate. They're both wildly self-involved and emotionally volatile. No wonder she was drawn to him.

Celeste is a mess. The other women are over looking her current emotional state, her recklessness,  her use of medications, AND the fact that she has hit both ML and her child because they dislike ML and because Perry was a monster. Home girl needs some time to work her shit out. Her kids are at risk.

Last night's Renata was the one from season one: Consumed with a need to provide for and protect her child combined with a "fuck with me and I will end you" edge. She gets the best dialogue for a reason.

[Anela]

46 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Wait, are we now speculating that Corey (Jane's new beau) is Perry's half-brother?

How, precisely, does that happen? I haven't done the math, but that just seems way, way out of any probability bounds...

I hadn't considered it, but it's probably because twists are thrown into everything now. 

[Blissfool]

15 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

I wonder why if the bankruptcy court judge questioned the payment for Botox

I am so removed from beauty enhancement procedures that I had no idea what Renata's gesture towards her forehead meant. Doh!

14 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

I noticed that the judge commented that Renata needed to hand over the watch, and then commented on the ring in the next sentence. When Renata took off the ring and put it on the table the watch was already there. Editing gremlins at work.

It was Gordon's watch. You can hear him take it off and slide it across the table.

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 Especially with Zoggy. When will she start telling him that his dad was really a nice wonderful guy and his mom was a dirty slut or whatever insane thing that Mary Louis is saying now? 

When Jane was revealing her past to her new boyfriend she said something like "I was raped by a man who I thought was kind and caring." I don't remember, did she have a good relationship with Perry before the rape?

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

That party was so freaking extra, and so very Renetta. 

Did you all notice that Renata and Amabella were wearing the same pleated gold lamé dress. So Renata!

FWIW, if i was Ed, in the midst of a serious  relationship problems with my spouse, I would not be dressing up in some campy 70's costume and wig to attend her friend's party. I'd stay home. 

[iMonrey]

To be fair, Celeste really is a mess. But I don't think handing the kids over to Mary Louise is the right answer, considering how Perry turned out. In fact if this goes to court and it came out how Perry was a wife beater and a rapist, it's doubtful the judge would give custody of any kids to his mother. In all probability they'd wind up in foster care or something.

I would not have been this tolerant of Mary Louise either. Someone needs to sit her down and tell her if she chooses not to believe certain facts about her son she either needs to keep her mouth shut about it or she needs to go away.  I really don't know why they're tip-toeing around her when it comes to this. 

Jane could easily get a restraining order against her. There's no way the mother of her rapist has any rights to her child, not even visitation. Nor should Jane even entertain the idea for a second.

[humbleopinion]

 My bad about the bankruptcy dude..too lazy to look it up before I clicked Submit Reply...

Too much show..now we have the drama of Bonnie's mother stroke and seizure with her accusing second husband who blames Bonnie for her mom's medical condition....

 Jane deserves to slap ML, too.

[izabella]

6 minutes ago, Blissfool said:

When Jane was revealing her past to her new boyfriend she said something like "I was raped by a man who I thought was kind and caring." I don't remember, did she have a good relationship with Perry before the rape?

That stood out to me as well, and sounds like she is rewriting history.  I thought they met in some bar (or was it the beach?) so she would only have known him from the night he raped her.  I don't remember how they met anymore, but it sure seems like she and Celeste are quick to give Perry so much whitewashing for the sake of the kids.  I have no idea why Jane would do that same whitewashing for the new boyfriend. 

Edited July 1, 2019 by izabella

[Ms Blue Jay]

9 hours ago, stagmania said:

I could not believe he did that. He should have been hiding in the bedroom, anyone with half a brain would have known that. 

Very good point!

 

8 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

I am probably going to get reamed for this, but even though Mary Louise is a manipulative monster, she does have a point. Celeste is mixing meds, driving, bringing home a guy and has no memory of it. How is that a safe environment for kids? I have driven in Monterey and  the roads twist and turn. Super dangerous. I recognize the situation is totally fucked up, but Celeste needs to get off the meds or be more closely monitored by her doctor. Also, when I was taking Xanax for anxiety, my doctor said no drinking. I cannot imagine mixing alcohol and mood altering substances and sleep meds. Recipe for disaster. 

 I won't even drink with Buckley's cough medicine or Advil.  And I enjoy my drink.

[debbie311]

One thing that I learned last night was when Mary Louise's lawyer told her to call every good family law attorney in the Bay Area, Peninsula and Monterey.  Because once she contacted them, presumably with the objective of possibly hiring them, they could not represent Celeste.  Wow!  I wonder if that is something that is done all the time?

I also didn't think that Celeste took Ambien, but was drugged by the bartender, and possibly Mary Louise had a hand in that.  Maddie asked her if she had taken Ambien, but she didn't really answer.

I have always loved Ms. Streep, but wow - she is becoming the character you love to hate.  I d agree with others who say that Celeste is a mess.  She had better get herself together fast or she is going to lose her kids.  Is that psychiatrist they all go to the only one in town?

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, CynicalGirl said:

Re Maddie and Ed, I think another problem is, Maddie's affair was a year or so ago (?) so she is over it and has moved on. For Ed, the (knowledge of the) betrayal is brand new, so he is nowhere near over it. I understand why she wants to know his intentions but I think it is unrealistic to expect either a divorce, or things going back to "normal" in such a short time frame. 

Maybe saying “stay or get a divorce” is a bit harsh at this point, but I don’t see how the passive-aggressiveness is helping anyone. Passive-aggression helps *no one.* Like, why did Ed go to a dancing party knowing that it would be highly likely that he’d need or be asked to dance with Madeline? Why even put yourself in that position?

On a non related note, I don’t understand the bankruptcy trustee’s smart ass remarks about how he will determine what the house will sell for and how much their assets will be tied up in civil suits. If an appraiser said their house will sell north of $20 million, why would he have a problem with that? I’ve never had to deal with bankruptcy, so I’m very confused.

Also, what happens with Renata’s checks once they declare bankruptcy. Won’t that start the rebuilding process? Or are her wages garnished?

Jane’s hair continues to look terrible, and the bandana is the real MVP of the episode because it kept those hideous bangs off her face. Same for her toboggan.

Edited July 1, 2019 by PepSinger

[Ms Blue Jay]

7 hours ago, Dminches said:

I would be very easy for Jane to say to Mary Louise “if you continue to pursue custody of Celeste’s boys you will never see Ziggy again.”  For starters.

It is disappointing that after a solid first season this show has turned into a weak soap opera.

I think I said last week that if Jane continues to see ML after what ML said to her about her possibly not being raped, then Jane needs to seek help.  And now Jane is even stupid enough to go and seek ML out to speak to her.  So stupid.

 

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh yeah I remember all of that, which all comes across as pretty hilarious in hindsight. I remember people thought that Ed was molesting Abigail,

I don't fault the audience for any of this though.  It's the direction.  They did so many scenes of Ed looking creepily at Abigail.  I love Adam Scott, but the direction makes things creepy on purpose.

Jane's new guy is weird, they are making him weird on purpose.  I don't fault people for thinking he is suspicious.  

6 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

Ever since the therapist said that part of Maddie's issues was her feeling of inadequacy because she didn't go to college, I was like, "get on that girlfriend!".  Colleges are no longer the bastion of the 18-22 year old crowd. There is nothing stopping her from going to college if she feels it's something that is missing in her life. 

She also seems to have the benefit of money and time so really nothing is stopping her unless maybe it's personal anxiety.

[poeticlicensed]

4 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I think I said last week that if Jane continues to see ML after what ML said to her about her possibly not being raped, then Jane needs to seek help.  And now Jane is even stupid enough to go and seek ML out to speak to her.  So stupid.

Yes, I don't understand why Jane would want Ziggy to have a relationship with ML. Of course you want your child to have benfit of grandparents, but she has seen how crazy/manipulative ML can be. Why invite trouble? 

I agree with other who have noted that this show is getting very soapy. Next thing you know, ML will turn out to be an alien and someone will get amnesia, hysterical blindness or some other insane plotline torn from the pages of the soaps. 

[Blakeston]

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Ed needs to leave Madeline in order to shake her up and save the marriage.   I still think he knew for a while something was going on.  A fling with Bonnie might set things right and be a two birds/one stone type deal re Nathan.

And Ed appeared to be leering at Bonnie back in season 1, and he said something to her about being attracted to sweaty women like her. Between that, and the flirting this season, the attraction certainly seems to be there.

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Wait, are we now speculating that Corey (Jane's new beau) is Perry's half-brother?

How, precisely, does that happen? I haven't done the math, but that just seems way, way out of any probability bounds...

I don't think anyone's suggesting that he coincidentally is related to Perry.

I'm guessing the theory is that he found out that his dead half-brother had a kid, and started dating Jane to get close to him.

It would be exceptionally strange behavior in real life, but Corey's pretty strange, and he was unusually eager to meet Ziggy, and the reference to Perry's dad having other kids was probably there for a reason. At the same time, he doesn't seem cunning enough to come up with much of a plan. I don't know what to think.

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Blissfool said:

When Jane was revealing her past to her new boyfriend she said something like "I was raped by a man who I thought was kind and caring." I don't remember, did she have a good relationship with Perry before the rape?

I think she just meant that Perry came across as kind when they first met that night.

[Blissfool]

17 minutes ago, debbie311 said:

One thing that I learned last night was when Mary Louise's lawyer told her to call every good family law attorney in the Bay Area, Peninsula and Monterey.  Because once she contacted them, presumably with the objective of possibly hiring them, they could not represent Celeste.  Wow!  I wonder if that is something that is done all the time

Will ML be required to keep paying these "best lawyers in the area" to prevent them from getting hired by Celeste? That would get expensive. 

[Penman61]

I don't know about ML getting custody of the twins. 

At the hearing, all Celeste has to do is show key clips from Kramer vs. Kramer, A Cry in the Dark, and (big finish) Sophie's Choice...

"Your honor, this woman GIVES HER CHILDREN TO NAZIS!!"

Case closed.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Penman61

[izabella]

I'm not seeing how Corey would find out that his dead half-brother had a kid with a woman he raped, as opposed to two kids with his wife.  Nor how he would find Jane in the first place since she didn't even know who her rapist was until a few months ago.  Nor why he would date her instead of going to Celeste or ML to find out more about Perry and get to know Celeste's boys.

MMV, but I don't see Corey as being strange or creepy.  The weirdest thing he's done is order fish when he is so concerned about fish being poisonous when he could just order pasta instead.

Edited July 1, 2019 by izabella

[Chaos Theory]

I bankruptcy judge guy scene was there to do two things and it succeeded or failed depending on how you view Renata.  If you view her as just some rich white lady with rich people problem that have nothing to do with the real world then the scene was probably lost on you.  If you view her as someone who worked her way up the corporate ladder on her own merit only to marry badly and have all her accomplishments be torn down not by her own bad deeds but by those of a man and to have another man question and itemized every aspect of her life then maybe you understand the humiliation she must have felt.      Yes of course poor people go through that daily.  That is not the point.  The point is Renata doesn’t deserve to have her life torn apart simply because she married badly.  

Edited July 1, 2019 by Chaos Theory