S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[Holmbo]

Well that was certainly... a season of television. I've decided to enjoy it for what it was. I've certainly watched much worse shows and enjoyed them. When I kinda went with the flow I found many things to enjoy with this episode. Mostly all the scenes with Tyrion in them. Even though he's been pretty useless these two last seasons I still really love him. I'm also glad that Jon did not end up King, which I actually pretty much expected after last week.

[MrWhyt]

22 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

We did see the dragon, off in the distance, following the grid pattern of the streets methodically, as if he were a Google earth photo taker being pulled behind a non-descript car.

we don't know how far Dany took things, we had multiple shots from Cercie's balcony and it looked like at most Dany had covered a quarter of the distance from the walls of the city to the red keep. But she could have gone much further off camera.

[Nashville]

47 minutes ago, RealReality said:

They could want the north back simply to discourage thoughts of independence among the other six kingdoms.  Or to make absolutely sure that the north wouldn't mount a campaign against any of the other kingdoms. 

Or maybe the north has some natural resource no one has needed up until a new ruler takes over and they decide they don't want to trade with the north but would rather just take it back.

Or some leader just decides that he'd prefer seven kingdoms to six.

Sansa has some breathing room because bran is on the throne.  But she can't know about the next guy...though 3ER may live a long long time, I don't know.  

Sansa’s breathing room exists not because her brother is on the throne (although that certainly doesn’t hurt), but because she can make a cogent argument justifying grounds for unique Northern dispensation which none of the other Kingdoms can gainsay, or claim for themselves: the entire realm of Westeros (including the other Six Kingdoms) would no longer exist if it wasn’t for the North’s actions in successfully defeating the Night King, and the sovereign recompense for the North’s losses in protecting the realm should be independence. 

[MJ Frog]

22 minutes ago, OldButHappy said:

My favorite ending was invented by the man on the Nerdest podcast:

Drogo finds Dany dead with Jon; Jon walks to the throne, sits, and commands Drogo:

“Dracarys”

Poof.

I really thought Jon was going to die in that scene, and things would have worked out better if he had. No needing to fanwank why Drogon didn't roast him. And no needing to fanwank why at least the Unsullied didn't freak the hell out and kill Jon and maybe everyone else. 

When it looked like Jon might take her out, I was thinking about all those soldiers down below who worshiped their Goddess/Queen and said to myself, "If you do this, there's going to be an apocalypse."

Not so much, apparently.

Edited May 21, 2019 by MJ Frog
A word.

[Nashville]

Ok - so Jon shivs Dany, Drogon melts the Iron Throne down to pigiron slag, and flies off with Dany’s body - and no witnesses to any/all this except Jon.

What *I* don’t get is why, when Wormy and the rest come storming up the steps and demand to know what happened, Jon just didn’t say something like, “I dunno, man - she was looking at the big metal chair and all of a sudden said ‘Oh, fuck this shit’, had the dragon melt it, and then flew off on the dragon’s back.  Didn’t say where she was going, or when she’d be back.  What was I supposed to do, stop her?  She’s the QUEEN, for crying out loud.”  ;>

[RoberTee]

39 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Ok - so Jon shivs Dany, Drogon melts the Iron Throne down to pigiron slag, and flies off with Dany’s body - and no witnesses to any/all this except Jon.

What *I* don’t get is why, when Wormy and the rest come storming up the steps and demand to know what happened, Jon just didn’t say something like, “I dunno, man - she was looking at the big metal chair and all of a sudden said ‘Oh, fuck this shit’, had the dragon melt it, and then flew off on the dragon’s back.  Didn’t say where she was going, or when she’d be back.  What was I supposed to do, stop her?  She’s the QUEEN, for crying out loud.”  ;>

And it wouldn't be the first time she disappeared with Drogon... But I guess Jon is too honorable for that! 

[CletusMusashi]

With Apologies to Will Smith:

Now this is the story all about how
My life got imp-slapped upside down
And I'd like to take a minute so just sit right there
I'll tell you how I became the hand of that weird kid in the chair

In Westeros Casterly born and raised
In the brothel that was where I spent most of my days
Whoring and thinking and drinking up fuel
And always playing the jester rather than the fool
When a couple of twins who were up to no good
Started making Joffries in my neighbourhood
I beat up one little cunt and his mom got mad
She said: "I'm ruining your life almost as much as our dad!"

I got framed for regicide and I ran off to safety
Then I popped out of a bag and said "Hi, Dragon Lady!"
It honestly seemed like she would make a good queen
But the writers said "Nah, let's make her random and mean!"

She got shanked at the end of the very last season
And the lords voted Bran king for no fucking reason
Bird-Boy stares into space and makes me run the whole land
So who's the hand of the king, and who's the bird in the hand?

[Nashville]

17 minutes ago, RoberTee said:

And it wouldn't be the first time she disappeared with Drogon... But I guess Jon is too honorable for that! 

The concept of too much honor is right on par with the notion of too much oral sex; yeah there’s a limit, but it’s WAAAYYYY up there.  😆

[cambridgeguy]

16 minutes ago, RoberTee said:

And it wouldn't be the first time she disappeared with Drogon... But I guess Jon is too honorable for that! 

The real miracle is that Grey Worm didn't execute Jon on the spot. 

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Sansa’s breathing room exists not because her brother is on the throne (although that certainly doesn’t hurt), but because she can make a cogent argument justifying grounds for unique Northern dispensation which none of the other Kingdoms can gainsay, or claim for themselves: the entire realm of Westeros (including the other Six Kingdoms) would no longer exist if it wasn’t for the North’s actions in successfully defeating the Night King, and the sovereign recompense for the North’s losses in protecting the realm should be independence. 

Technically that's not quite true. I expected Yara and Robin/Royce to speak up. The Ironborn that came with Theon were the ones directly protecting Bran. While Yara couldn't have known that specific point, she knew Ironborn went to Winterfell to fight and died. The Vale forces were even larger and fought in both the Long Night battle (and experienced losses) and when Team Dany went South to attack KL. The Vale definitely had grounds to speak up and demand the same.

[HunterHunted]

37 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Ok - so Jon shivs Dany, Drogon melts the Iron Throne down to pigiron slag, and flies off with Dany’s body - and no witnesses to any/all this except Jon.

What *I* don’t get is why, when Wormy and the rest come storming up the steps and demand to know what happened, Jon just didn’t say something like, “I dunno, man - she was looking at the big metal chair and all of a sudden said ‘Oh, fuck this shit’, had the dragon melt it, and then flew off on the dragon’s back.  Didn’t say where she was going, or when she’d be back.  What was I supposed to do, stop her?  She’s the QUEEN, for crying out loud.”  ;>

6 minutes ago, RoberTee said:

And it wouldn't be the first time she disappeared with Drogon... But I guess Jon is too honorable for that! 

They know because Jon told them. Jon told them because the one lesson he internalized from Ned is to be honorable. One of the few times that we know Ned chose to be pragmatic instead of strictly "honorable" was about the events at the Tower of Joy. He's never told anyone that he only won his great duel with Ser Arthur Dayne because Howland Reed stabbed Dayne in the back. He's also never told anyone about Jon's true parentage. Not even Catelyn who loathed Jon every fucking day and never stopped resenting Ned. Killing Dany was Jon's Tower of Joy. He loved her and pledged his fealty to her, but he had to kill her for the good of everyone else. Although breaking his Night's Watch oath to infiltrate the Wildlings clearly troubled him. But yeah, Jon and Ned suffer from an excess of honor and it usually ended up screwing them over.

[queenanne]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

This last quote is exactly how I understood it. She was getting rid of the petty tyrants so that she alone would rule, and that was freedom because she knew what was good for the people and so it would be good. It seems like a really common temptation for people in power. Like every cop show on US TV seems to have police that are frustrated by laws and we're supposed to cheer when they start beating people up and torturing them and otherwise trampling on their civil rights because the cop knows what's right.

I think that is a terrific analogy for the storyline, perhaps the best one we've seen so far.  

[Zuleikha]

She was getting rid of the petty tyrants so that she alone would rule, and that was freedom because she knew what was good for the people and so it would be good. It seems like a really common temptation for people in power.

Except that a relatively short time ago, she was negotiating the alliance with Olenna, Ellaria, and Yara--an alliance that included independence for the Iron Islands.

The fundamental problem  with the way D&D developed Dany's storyline is that while yes, we've seen her wreak group punishments in which innocents may have been caught up with the guilty, we've also seen her canonically try to avoid unnecessary deaths of innocents. We've also seen her negotiate and respect other people. So there was work required to develop Dany's character to the point where she would unilaterally slaughter innocents in King's Landing and see that as liberation. But they didn't do it, so we're all guessing at what she saw as liberation and what she actually intended to do.

It's frustrating because there are legitimate issues with highborn tyranny in Westeros that the show has clearly established. The storyline didn't need to be a hot mess. Dany shouldn't have been developed along a Hitler/Nazi imagery model that doesn't even make any sense. She should have been developed along the Mao/Stalin model of tyranny. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Meera is gonna peace out... Get on a boat and somehow bump into Arya 

Meera and Arya exploring Westerwesteros together would be a great spin off*

I'd love to learn more about the Crannogmen of the Neck.   Meera could teach Arya to hunt frogs and maybe a few poisons she didn't learn at the House of Black and White.  

*With competent writers.

[Bryce Lynch]

46 minutes ago, Smad said:

Technically that's not quite true. I expected Yara and Robin/Royce to speak up. The Ironborn that came with Theon were the ones directly protecting Bran. While Yara couldn't have known that specific point, she knew Ironborn went to Winterfell to fight and died. The Vale forces were even larger and fought in both the Long Night battle (and experienced losses) and when Team Dany went South to attack KL. The Vale definitely had grounds to speak up and demand the same.

Speaking of the Ironborn, with Dany dead, can we really count on Yara to keep her promise that they would stop raping and reaving for a living? Wouldn't the Vale and the Riverlands be vulnerable to Ironborn attacks?  

Edited May 21, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[paigow]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Meera and Arya exploring Westerwesteros together would be a great spin off*

*With competent writers.

[Interior: Seedy Tavern where the maps have no name]

Arya: [looking down at a freshly killed corpse] That fucker had it coming, but he broke my leg

Meera: Girlfriend, I am not dragging another Stark around on a sled.....

[Couver]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Sansa’s breathing room exists not because her brother is on the throne (although that certainly doesn’t hurt), but because she can make a cogent argument justifying grounds for unique Northern dispensation which none of the other Kingdoms can gainsay, or claim for themselves: the entire realm of Westeros (including the other Six Kingdoms) would no longer exist if it wasn’t for the North’s actions in successfully defeating the Night King, and the sovereign recompense for the North’s losses in protecting the realm should be independence. 

If she goes this route she'd really need to hope that the actual details of that battle are kept under wraps. That victory came with a heavy helping of foreigners via the Unsullied, Dothraki, and the former queen and her dragons.

Yara at least should know Dany had a major role in that victory and can make a claim for the IS on that alone.

But by shows end I can totally see Tyrion and Sansa spinning this into a Northern victory.

[Heckler52317]

2 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

I really thought Jon was going to die in that scene, and things would have worked out better if he had. No needing to fanwank why Drogon didn't roast him. And no needing to fanwank why at least the Unsullied didn't freak the hell out and kill Jon and maybe everyone else. 

When it looked like Jon might take her out, I was thinking about all those soldiers down below who worshiped their Goddess/Queen and said to myself, "If you do this, there's going to be an apocalypse."

Not so much, apparently.

excellent post!

I really think Jon and Tyrion would have been killed. AFAIK it would have made for a better story.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Heckler52317
edited to add a thought

[Heckler52317]

16 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Speaking of the Ironborn, with Dany dead, can we really count on Yara to keep her promise that they would stop raping and reaving for a living? Wouldn't the Vale and the Riverlands be vulnerable to Ironborn attacks?  

Oh totally agree. Anyone within a day's march of any northernish coast is in for a long few decades

[Raachel2008]

5 hours ago, Ottis said:

But that's a pacing issue, not a story issue, for Dany. 

This a thousand times. And at least Dany had her own story told in a way that she was not pushed in the background or made look incridibly stupid to prop other characters, like happened to Tyrion and Jon.

[RealReality]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

Sansa’s breathing room exists not because her brother is on the throne (although that certainly doesn’t hurt), but because she can make a cogent argument justifying grounds for unique Northern dispensation which none of the other Kingdoms can gainsay, or claim for themselves: the entire realm of Westeros (including the other Six Kingdoms) would no longer exist if it wasn’t for the North’s actions in successfully defeating the Night King, and the sovereign recompense for the North’s losses in protecting the realm should be independence. 

I don't think the "you owe us" argument would work for a leader that wants the north back.  That MIGHT work in sansas lifetime, but when bran is off the throne and there is a new ruler, it's unlikely they would really care....nor would any of the other six kingdoms.....

In the timeless words of Janet Jackson...."what have you done for me lately?"

[RealReality]

46 minutes ago, Couver said:

If she goes this route she'd really need to hope that the actual details of that battle are kept under wraps. That victory came with a heavy helping of foreigners via the Unsullied, Dothraki, and the former queen and her dragons.

Yara at least should know Dany had a major role in that victory and can make a claim for the IS on that alone.

But by shows end I can totally see Tyrion and Sansa spinning this into a Northern victory.

They can spin it all they'd like, you get a power hungry leader on the throne....you get a desperate situation where the north has something the rest of them need....no one is going to care about what the north did like a decade ago.  Or even a few years ago....or even yesterday.

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Ok - so Jon shivs Dany, Drogon melts the Iron Throne down to pigiron slag, and flies off with Dany’s body - and no witnesses to any/all this except Jon.

What *I* don’t get is why, when Wormy and the rest come storming up the steps and demand to know what happened, Jon just didn’t say something like, “I dunno, man - she was looking at the big metal chair and all of a sudden said ‘Oh, fuck this shit’, had the dragon melt it, and then flew off on the dragon’s back.  Didn’t say where she was going, or when she’d be back.  What was I supposed to do, stop her?  She’s the QUEEN, for crying out loud.”  ;>

And he could have been like "I tried to stop drogon....you see that pool of blood?  I totally stabbed him with this fancy valaryian steel before he took off.  I'm not saying I'm a hero or anything, but if you wanted to make me king, I'd be okay with that"

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Speaking of the Ironborn, with Dany dead, can we really count on Yara to keep her promise that they would stop raping and reaving for a living? Wouldn't the Vale and the Riverlands be vulnerable to Ironborn attacks?  

I don't think the Vale is in any danger. They are on the other side of the map and while they lost a lot of soldiers helping the North, they haven't lost most of them. The Vale was the only Kingdom sitting out all the battles and wars prior to Battle of the Bastards. Who does Yara have right now? All the Iron Islanders with Euron got killed by Dany. Yara herself had only a handful of people with her (yes I know people respawn like crazy on this show) when she went and took the Iron Islands back. It will be a long time before Yara can mount anything.

52 minutes ago, RealReality said:

but when bran is off the throne and there is a new ruler

Never going to happen. The 3ER is not going to give up that crown. He will ditch Bran's body eventually when it's too old but he worked too hard and long to get the crown to just give it up. Only way the 3ER takes away Northern independence is if a ruler in the North is a danger to his plans. Or a future ruler wants back into the unified Kingdoms, he would grant that.

[RoberTee]

46 minutes ago, RealReality said:

They can spin it all they'd like, you get a power hungry leader on the throne....you get a desperate situation where the north has something the rest of them need....no one is going to care about what the north did like a decade ago.  Or even a few years ago....or even yesterday.

But the North is really difficult to conquer. That's been established within the show.

"The North cannot be held... not by an outsider. It's too big and too wild. When the winter comes, the Seven gods together couldn't save you and your royal army."

Cersei Lannister, S01E03

Theon and Ramsay Bolton managed to do it through treason and in a time where most Northern forces went south to fight the War. 

Before that, only Aegon Targaryen, when he united the Seven Kingdoms with the Help of three grown dragons. 

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, Couver said:

If she goes this route she'd really need to hope that the actual details of that battle are kept under wraps. That victory came with a heavy helping of foreigners via the Unsullied, Dothraki, and the former queen and her dragons.

Yara at least should know Dany had a major role in that victory and can make a claim for the IS on that alone.

But by shows end I can totally see Tyrion and Sansa spinning this into a Northern victory.

History is written by the victors; and Dany and her army major role win the Battle of Winterfell will forever be tarnished by the murder of children in King's Landing. Also, Arya Stark, youngest daughter of Ned Stark, a girl from the very family  ruling the North for a thousand years, killed the Night King. 

I'm pretty sure people will be more than happy to "ignore" the foreigners lead by a queen that burned thousands of civillians with her dragons. 

[MrsR]

1 hour ago, RoberTee said:

When the winter comes, the Seven gods together couldn't save you and your royal army."

But those weird long winters/seasons are a thing of the past. Now that the NK is gone balance is returning. The North will lose that advantage.

[Raachel2008]

1 minute ago, MrsR said:

But those weird long winters/seasons are a thing of the past. Now that the NK is gone balance is returning. The North will lose that advantage.

Are they? It looke pretty cold when Jon arrived at Castle Black and left with the Free Folk.

[Julyolo]

On 5/20/2019 at 4:37 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

And Pod will probably have to carry him around a lot, too.  I can't imagine the Red Keep is all that wheelchair accessible.    

Sorry to go graphic here, but since Sansa alluded nothing functioned below Bran's waistband, who is gonna manage his bladder and bowel incontinence issues? Guess he really will need a Hand!!! Hope he eats like a bird. Why didn't Tyrion just dub him "Bran the Bird-brained" and be done with it?

[MrsR]

1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

Are they? It looke pretty cold when Jon arrived at Castle Black and left with the Free Folk.

You missed the plant that was growing up through the snow as the wildings left Castle Black. Spring has come to the far north.

[Macbeth]

5 hours ago, Holmbo said:

When I kinda went with the flow I found many things to enjoy with this episode. Mostly all the scenes with Tyrion in them. Even though he's been pretty useless these two last seasons I still really love him. I'm also glad that Jon did not end up King, which I actually pretty much expected after last week.

After Tyrion's long talk with Jon (aka Jon Snow continues to know nothing) he knew Jon wasn't the right choice to be King. 

1.  Jon - The war is over.  Tyrion - Were you not listening. Dany is making plans to liberate the world?

2.  Tyrion - You are a threat. In the end she will end up executing you as well.   Jon - She is the Queen. If that's her decision... (At this point Tyrion gave Jon a look that said "I can't work with this amount of stupidity").  

3.  Tyrion convinced Jon to kill Dany by reminding him his sisters were in danger aka Winterfell needs to be liberated. 

4.  Tyrion - You need to act now aka soon as Drogon has rested, Dany will fly up north and roast Samsa. 

Tyrion decided to nominate the Stark who actually knows something. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Macbeth

[Raachel2008]

19 minutes ago, MrsR said:

You missed the plant that was growing up through the snow as the wildings left Castle Black. Spring has come to the far north.

Wow, I just had to rewatch, you are absolutely right, Damn, I guess Sansa will need a new dress soon.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

29 minutes ago, MrsR said:

You missed the plant that was growing up through the snow as the wildings left Castle Black. Spring has come to the far north.

Wow, I just had to rewatch, you are absolutely right, Damn, I guess Sansa will need a new dress soon.

But you don't years of winter for the advantage. That's why invading Russia is a bad idea.

[Francie]

gods, I wish I had photoshop/meme creation skills. Because I really want to cut up the Season 4 “what makes a good king” scene with Tywin and Tommen with Tyrion’s suggestion of Bran as king. 

“What makes a good king?”

”Holiness?”

”Baelor the Blessed was holy. And pious. He starved himself into a holy grave.”

”Strength?”

”King Robert was strong. And he spent his time whoring and drinking and hunting until the last two kill him.”

”Wisdom? Wisdom is what makes a good king.”

”No, no, no!  Having a story to tell makes a good king.”

”Wait, what?”

[enoughcats]

3 hours ago, Heckler52317 said:

all those soldiers down below

Besides the aforenamed (and memorably named) Grayworm, do we know the name of a single other Unsullied?  Could there have been unsullied who had another thought about their trip to Westeros?  They may have all trained to react the same, but cutting off their good china (a Project Runway phrase) didn't necessarily lead to group think.

And the Dothraki:  what about their women left behind?  Do we know the name of any Dothraki lieutenants?  Or just dead Dothraki?

[Smad]

43 minutes ago, MrsR said:

But those weird long winters/seasons are a thing of the past. Now that the NK is gone balance is returning. The North will lose that advantage.

Seasons seem to be even crazier now. KL was in the desert when Dany rolled up. A few days later, after she burned the city down, KL was covered in snow (and ash). A few weeks later, at the pit meeting, everything was dry again.

[hypnotoad]

Quote

were they seriously talking about rebuilding King's Landing? Like, seriously? Where do you rent the construction equipment for that kind of cleanup in Westeros?

Probably the same place Dany got all her fabulous war outfits! I mean she was out in the desert for years and then came to Westros wearing that amazing white coat - where did she get that? And where did she get that Darth Vader/Nazi outfit for her Triumph of the Will moment? And who did her hair and nails?!?

[catrice2]

I am just glad I was never a Star Wars fan. 

[FierceCritter]

Absolutely love OzzyMan's review, both the humorous and the insightful. Said it better than I ever could. 

[lmsweb]

Loved that OzzyMan review!

Just noticed on my third watch through - Arya and Sansa both referred to Jon as their brother at the meeting of the Lords and Ladies. Clearly, they are going to keep it under wraps that he's a Targ, as is Tyrion. Varys and Dany are dead. Sam will never tell, and Bran won't. I don't think we ever had confirmation that anyone else knew?

ALSO: I still need confirmation if that is supposed to Howland Reed between Sam and Edmure. It is driving me NUTS. (Yes I know, of all the things to take away from that last episode - this is going to bother me the most. Sigh)

[RealReality]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

I don't think the Vale is in any danger. They are on the other side of the map and while they lost a lot of soldiers helping the North, they haven't lost most of them. The Vale was the only Kingdom sitting out all the battles and wars prior to Battle of the Bastards. Who does Yara have right now? All the Iron Islanders with Euron got killed by Dany. Yara herself had only a handful of people with her (yes I know people respawn like crazy on this show) when she went and took the Iron Islands back. It will be a long time before Yara can mount anything.

Never going to happen. The 3ER is not going to give up that crown. He will ditch Bran's body eventually when it's too old but he worked too hard and long to get the crown to just give it up. Only way the 3ER takes away Northern independence is if a ruler in the North is a danger to his plans. Or a future ruler wants back into the unified Kingdoms, he would grant that.

Why does the three eye Ravens care about the north?  And how is he going to convince the council of the kingdom that he is the 3ER, just not in brans body.  

I mean, if he didn't give up the crown it would basically make Tyrion a liar and his speech nonsensical. 

I think the other kingdoms would have a problem having been promised the chance to vote for a ruler once bran is dead and then getting more three eye ravens rule because of a loophole.

3 hours ago, Julyolo said:

Sorry to go graphic here, but since Sansa alluded nothing functioned below Bran's waistband, who is gonna manage his bladder and bowel incontinence issues? Guess he really will need a Hand!!! Hope he eats like a bird. Why didn't Tyrion just dub him "Bran the Bird-brained" and be done with it?

Maybe he just wargs into a Raven when he has to poo?

[Holmbo]

3 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Tyrion decided to nominate the Stark who actually knows something. 

And he knew Bran because he took the time to talk to him back at winterfell.

[GraceK]

Am I the only one who found Tyrion’s speech to Jon extremely uncomfortable? He admits the Khals would have done worse things to her, he admits SLAVERY IS EVIL and that the slavers are evil men, he admits that crucifying CHILDREN is evil.... he says that everywhere Dany goes, evil men die and she gets more powerful. What does that sound like? Doesn’t that sound like a man afraid of a woman’s power???? He literally says he thought he could control her, but realizes that was fanciful. 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️He’s upset she killed his evil family and doesn’t love him back. He even says he loves her, just not as successfully as Jon did. This whole argument to Jon is so misogynistic and riddled with fear. She’s too powerful to be controlled and has finally stopped listening to his advice. Now she has to be killed. Very convenient. And once she’s dead, Tyrion ends up exactly where’s he’s comfortable. Ruling KL, his best bud Bronn in power with him, making dick jokes, with all his buddies. He’s exactly where he always wanted to be. Even Jaime gets a nice edit in his white book, and the wheel keeps spinning. the finale ends the way it started. A Lannister as hand, a Stark ruling Winterfell, and a king who didn’t want to be king ( depending on your theories), and a Targaryen ( Jon) in exile. And a council of men ruling it all. There is no “ wheel breaking “.  And the one person who could have changed it for real was murdered. ( echoing Rhagaer) for love. With help from a Lannister and a Stark. This time it’s the Baratheon who is innocent. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by GraceK

[RealReality]

4 hours ago, RoberTee said:

But the North is really difficult to conquer. That's been established within the show.

"The North cannot be held... not by an outsider. It's too big and too wild. When the winter comes, the Seven gods together couldn't save you and your royal army."

Cersei Lannister, S01E03

Theon and Ramsay Bolton managed to do it through treason and in a time where most Northern forces went south to fight the War. 

Before that, only Aegon Targaryen, when he united the Seven Kingdoms with the Help of three grown dragons. 

The north probably had a few more people before fighting the dead.  And it's not holding the north that should be sansas concern...it's the fact that with six kingdoms against her it may not be too hard to capture the north.

Someone pointed out that the north doesn't really have anything worth fighting for, and that may be the saving grace.  If they ever do...they are in trouble.

3ER can tell people stories about how it's nearly impossible to hold the north, but sometimes people think that they know better.  Especially if they really, really, really want something the north has.

Edited May 22, 2019 by RealReality

[Butless]

8 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Except that a relatively short time ago, she was negotiating the alliance with Olenna, Ellaria, and Yara--an alliance that included independence for the Iron Islands.

The fundamental problem  with the way D&D developed Dany's storyline is that while yes, we've seen her wreak group punishments in which innocents may have been caught up with the guilty, we've also seen her canonically try to avoid unnecessary deaths of innocents. We've also seen her negotiate and respect other people. So there was work required to develop Dany's character to the point where she would unilaterally slaughter innocents in King's Landing and see that as liberation. But they didn't do it, so we're all guessing at what she saw as liberation and what she actually intended to do.

It's frustrating because there are legitimate issues with highborn tyranny in Westeros that the show has clearly established. The storyline didn't need to be a hot mess. Dany shouldn't have been developed along a Hitler/Nazi imagery model that doesn't even make any sense. She should have been developed along the Mao/Stalin model of tyranny. 

The Nazi imagery was way over the top, and just struck the wrong note, completely.

I wonder if this is in the encyclopedia of tropes, just dropping in Hitler/Nazi imagery to depict tyranny? And patch up a shitty plot? Like they also did in the Star Wars comeback, a few years ago.

Benioff and Weiss should be cut from earning any more money in entertainment, for the lazy, horrible way they handled this series.  For the in-your-face misogyny that they rode right up to the ending of GOT, alone. If anyone else but two rich white boys had done this, this would have ruined the career of anyone, except for these assholes, who are going to fail upwards all their lives.

[Cheezwiz]

7 minutes ago, Butless said:

If anyone else but two rich white boys had done this, this would have ruined the career of anyone, except for these assholes, who are going to fail upwards all their lives.

Yep, kind of like most of the male characters who survived to the end of the show. (Except Lord Davos. I still love the Onion Knight!)

But the rest of them? Richly rewarded for being useless. The more useless they were, the more spectacularly they succeeded. 

In my mind, those characters were all proxies for D&D, who should be too embarrassed to show their faces in public ever again. Where's Drogon when you need him? DRACARYS!

[Butless]

On 5/20/2019 at 3:47 AM, Taget said:

As I said they were the competent ones.  Given the condition of the city when he left Grey Worm administered the city well.  He fought well.  In everything he did he was thoroughly competent.  Compare that to the literal gang of thieves who are now running Westeros in the small council.  They didn't fit in.  Not because they had dark skin.  But because they knew what the hell they were doing.

My comment, that all the brown people were put on a ship and sailed off to an island, was not a comment on the competency of the Unsullied or Grey Worm.

It was a comment on how hamfisted, stupid, tone-deaf, and ultimately racist, the story was written to be by Benioff, Weiss, and possibly GRRM.

[Butless]

6 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

Yep, kind of like most of the male characters who survived to the end of the show. (Except Lord Davos. I still love the Onion Knight!)

But the rest of them? Richly rewarded for being useless. The more useless they were, the more spectacularly they succeeded. 

In my mind, those characters were all proxies for D&D, who should be too embarrassed to show their faces in public ever again. Where's Drogon when you need him? DRACARYS!

They literally wrote dialogue to come from the mouths of characters to absolve them of the horrible things they had done through this series, and had never apologized for, or even given an audience to the complaints. SEE, for e.g.: Sansa excusing being raped by Ramsay, amongst too many other things to name.  I will NEVER support anyone or anything connected to these two losers again.

[LennieBriscoe]

Gee, Dany "liberated" the innocent citizens of KL by an aerial bombardment. 

What was that term again? Oh,  yes.

"Shock and Awe."

[Butless]

On 5/20/2019 at 10:02 AM, Humbugged said:

Why are you holding your head ?

The Unsullied chose to leave even though they were offered land  and the Dothraki from what we saw of the docks were staying and probably took the deal .

To be fair the people of Westeros just watched these peace loving brown people (who had been brought to conquer them by the Necromonger) had just went on a killing/raping spree where 10s of thousands of innocent people were murdered .

So yeah extending the hand of friendship and asking them to stay (and I saw the 2 mules jokes and it is not the same as the Unsullied were never slaves in Westeros ) is really racist /s

The people of Westros just watched their own Westrosi NORTHERN ARMY go on a killing/rape spree. Jon didn't pull a "brown" person off a woman who was about to be murdered/raped. He pulled one of his OWN men off.  Jon was directly responsible for all the murder and mayhem, because he enthusiastically backed and enabled Dany. In any other world, he'd be hanged for a war criminal.

 As I said, when the outcome of your story is to write that 'all the "brown" people get on a boat and fuck off to an island,' then your story is racist.