S08.E05: The Bells

[Miles]

Just now, ShellsandCheese said:

There is no explanation presented on the show. But I believe the showrunners provided their logic | explanation via the inside the episode vignette.

Rreally?! Man this shows writing has gone down hill even more than I thought (and I thought it was already at the very bottom, guess they started tunneling). I was sure I must have missed something. I'm really not interested in what Dumb & Dumber had to say about it after the fact. If it makes no sense in the context of the show it makes no sense.

But thanks for your answer to my question. :)

[Lamima]

4 minutes ago, Miles said:

Rreally?! Man this shows writing has gone down hill even more than I thought (and I thought it was already at the very bottom, guess they started tunneling). I was sure I must have missed something. I'm really not interested in what Dumb & Dumber had to say about it after the fact. If it makes no sense in the context of the show it makes no sense.

But thanks for your answer to my question. 🙂

Yeah...it's like having to watch Talking Dead to see what the show TWD intended for the episode that night.

[Miles]

11 minutes ago, Lamima said:

Yeah...it's like having to watch Talking Dead to see what the show TWD intended for the episode that night.

You know you've done fucked up when TWD is better than your show by far...

[Oscirus]

Perhaps she had a really bad headache from previously starving herself.

[Miles]

Yeah, I'm going to call hard bullshit on that one. That doesn't seem to be in her nature and the show hasn't shown any change in her to make this believeable.

Also your historical example is a leader showing strength at home, by overkilling an enemy overseas (also not after a surrender, that's always bad form). These are the people Dany wishes to rule. What good are dead subjects to her and will the people ever trust her if they know that she can go cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and kill everybody any second? That's going to get her assasination attemps out the ass. Nobody in their right mind would be good with her sitting on the throne after this. These weren't "some random wildlings overseas" she slaughtered, those were westeroses.

[Marci]

On 5/12/2019 at 10:40 PM, nodorothyparker said:

What a self-indulgent mess of bullshit.

YES!

Why, why, this lazy writing, unbelievable scenes, characters all of a sudden morphing into people of different character.  

Jamie, who over the years became a relatable, likable, man of honor, goes back to being a one-note asshole.

Dany, they even made it hard to look at her face at times. Such a pathetic setup to her downfall.

Arya, c’mon why isn’t she dead? If she were meant to be alive, write her story arc better!

Jon, well, I will always like Jon. They can’t stop me.  Nuff said.

Sansa was notably absent.  The next Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.........?

[DigitalCount]

Positivity post: for all the talk of Kit's limited acting, I could see him physically thinking "ugh, Sansa, why" when Varys approached him. And to Jon's credit, he did not vocalize this. It was a moment that he could have said something dumb and didn't; I could even see him working out the chain of actors (if Varys is talking about this to me, then the person who talked had to have been Sansa). But identifying her in the moment would have been foolish, so I'm glad he didn't do it.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The show didn't flesh it out and also they rushed it, so once again they look like idiots.

Rhaegal was wounded, and could barely fly.  The Scopions were a surprise.  (Which, come on!  She's flying!  She didn't look for the Euron Fleet or danger?  More piss poor writing, like the idiotic battle plans that made Tyrion and everyone else look like fools, but hey!  Blockbuster moments!  Great cinematography!  COOL CGI!

Drogon is stronger, bigger, smarter because he never wasted away in dungeons like his siblings.

My impression is what saved drogan was Diving suddenly from very high up and out of range, having already targeted the scorpions and frying the operators before they could shoot. 

[Kate47]

Drogon and Dany also came out of the sun, to blind the fleet and present a surprise.

[Delete]

10 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Game Of Thrones: George R.R. Martin Has Finished The Last Two Books, According To Actor

Not according to Martin. http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

"No, THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING are not finished," the clearly-annoyed Martin clarified. "DREAM is not even begun; I am not going to start writing volume seven until I finish volume six. It seems absurd to me that I need to state this. 

"The world is round, the Earth revolves around the sun, water is wet… do I need to say that too? It boggles me that anyone would believe this story, even for an instant. It makes not a whit of sense. Why would I sit for years on completed novels? Why would my publishers — not just here in the US, but all around the world — ever consent to this? They make millions and millions of dollars every time a new Ice & Fire book comes out, as do I. Delaying makes no sense. 

"Why would HBO want the books delayed? The books help create interest in the show, just as the show creates interest in the books. So… no, the books are not done. HBO did not ask me to delay them. Nor did [showrunners] David & Dan. There is no ‘deal’ to hold back on the books. I assure you, HBO and David & Dan would both have been thrilled and delighted if THE WINDS OF WINTER had been delivered and published four or five years ago… and NO ONE would have been more delighted than me."

[Lamima]

4 minutes ago, Barbara Please said:

Not according to Martin. http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

"No, THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING are not finished," the clearly-annoyed Martin clarified. "DREAM is not even begun; I am not going to start writing volume seven until I finish volume six. It seems absurd to me that I need to state this. 

"The world is round, the Earth revolves around the sun, water is wet… do I need to say that too? It boggles me that anyone would believe this story, even for an instant. It makes not a whit of sense. Why would I sit for years on completed novels? Why would my publishers — not just here in the US, but all around the world — ever consent to this? They make millions and millions of dollars every time a new Ice & Fire book comes out, as do I. Delaying makes no sense. 

"Why would HBO want the books delayed? The books help create interest in the show, just as the show creates interest in the books. So… no, the books are not done. HBO did not ask me to delay them. Nor did [showrunners] David & Dan. There is no ‘deal’ to hold back on the books. I assure you, HBO and David & Dan would both have been thrilled and delighted if THE WINDS OF WINTER had been delivered and published four or five years ago… and NO ONE would have been more delighted than me."

He acts like it's so not his fault that the next book isn't out. FFS, Georgie, get 'er done!!!

[Oscirus]

Ok after watching the after show, the sight of the red keep and all it represented was what drove her crazy, not the bells. They just didn't do a good job showing it.

[Affogato]

21 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I feel like Dany was sending a brutal message to all the Seven Kingdoms and maybe even across the narrow sea. Just like Varys was a message to Sansa, she is also telling the entire known world to submit. If she's still sane, she showers other cities with riches and rewards those who submit quickly.

Isn't that the lesson of Harrenhall? 

Also, I liked seeing Arya at the mercy of that fire. Last week she benefited from that fire. Dany protected the living world with that fire. Don't appreciate me? Let's see how you like being on the receiving end.

I think she planned it with Greyworm. I think it was a brutal plan but she did it. She never agreed to the bell idea. 

Yes that is sounding crazy. Thank you for pointing it out  

i think we are spending too much time reacting to the word ‘mad’—and it isn’t a well defined word. Would prozac help? Lithium?

She is moving along to becoming a really brittle and tyrannical ruler. Not one who will make the world a better place. 

I think we should have spent more time with the characters and politics before this happened.  But it is all there. 

[Enigma X]

I, honestly could not come here after the episode because the bait and switch of Daenerys’ character really left a sour taste in my mouth. I am still having a hard time coming up with words to describe how disappointed I am in this whole season. I don’t understand why Cersei got to die in her lover’s arms. That was also not earned. 

[GraceK]

So...anyone else catch that Varys was trying to poison her this episode in the beginning? Before she even did anything? 

Lets make this clear. Until this episode, Dany literally has done nothing to warrant this reaction from Varys or Tyrion. All she has done is grieve a friend. Oh, and feel isolated at a feast. 🙄  Apparently that was enough to send Varys screeching about “ Mad queen!!!” And start to plot to over throw and murder her this episode. Seriously. She has listened to everything Varys and Tyrion have advised her to do up until this point and she has lost a lot.... what in her behavior in season 8, honestly, justifies this Varys heel turn? I mean, she’s right to be paranoid. Her advisors are conspiring behind her back and one of them is plotting to kill and overthrow her. 🤷🏻‍♀️

That is what makes this hard to stomach and is what is pissing people off . This mass slaughter and destruction of Kings Landing is literally like a switch went off in her brain and we are supposed to think that Varys and Tyrion and everyone has been justified in their gaslighting and it’s bullshit. This would have made more sense in season 6 or season 5 even. Season 7 and Season 8 she has been her most restrained and reasonable. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by GraceK

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So...anyone else catch that Varys was trying to poison her this episode in the beginning? Before she even did anything? 

Lets make this clear. Until this episode, Dany literally has done nothing to warrant this reaction from Varys or Tyrion. All she has done is grieve a friend. Oh, and feel isolated at a feast. 🙄  Apparently that was enough to send Varys screeching about “ Mad queen!!!” And start to plot to over throw and murder her this episode. Seriously. She has listened to everything Varys and Tyrion have advised her to do up until this point and she has lost a lot.... what in her behavior in season 8, honestly, justifies this Varys heel turn? I mean, she’s right to be paranoid. Her advisors are conspiring behind her back and one of them is plotting to kill and overthrow her. 🤷🏻‍♀️

That is what makes this hard to stomach and is what is pissing people off . This mass slaughter and destruction of Kings Landing is literally like a switch went off in her brain and we are supposed to think that Varys and Tyrion and everyone has been justified in their gaslighting and it’s bullshit. This would have made more sense in season 6 or season 5 even. Season 7 and Season 8 she has been her most restrained and reasonable. 

Varys's behavior made no sense given who he'd been in the past. Not only is he going straight to running around telling everyone about Jon and planning a poisoning but his big plot is basically to walk up to Tyrion and say, "I'm gonna betray Dany. You in?" And when Tyrion's obviously not he just says, "Kay, I'll go betray her myself!"

No holding back to get actual proof of anything, no hanging back to feel anybody out, see how things might shake out. Just straight to this so he could get a death scene.

[Umbelina]

Yes, Varys didn't stay alive all this time by being stupid, or reckless. 

His death was based on an absurdity.

But hell, it gave D&D another scene with DRAGON, so they were cool with it.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Umbelina
clarity

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Varys's behavior made no sense given who he'd been in the past. Not only is he going straight to running around telling everyone about Jon and planning a poisoning but his big plot is basically to walk up to Tyrion and say, "I'm gonna betray Dany. You in?" And when Tyrion's obviously not he just says, "Kay, I'll go betray her myself!"

No holding back to get actual proof of anything, no hanging back to feel anybody out, see how things might shake out. Just straight to this so he could get a death scene.

It’s literally like the most destructive , self fulfilling prophecy ever. Your afraid A Targaryen Queen with dragons will go mad like her dad? Let’s try to kill her, and betray her, and conspire behind her back, and let’s do it when she’s at her most emotionally vulnerable and grieving! And while we are at it, let’s try to put her nephew on the throne !!!🤦🏻‍♀️

Edited May 14, 2019 by GraceK

[GraceK]

This is pretty great 

https://m.imgur.com/a/CoyWKMP

[hypnotoad]

Quote

No doubt in the books, Tyrion will be muttering Where do whores go? when he watches Dany torch King's Landing.

OMG! Thanks for the laugh. How I came to hate that line!!

I absolutely don't have an issue with mad queen Dany in theory, but the show did barely anything to pave the path to that conclusion. No, sorry, her non-reaction to her horrible brothers death is not an indication of future madness. That seems like common sense. Tyrion continuing to try and talk sense to Cersei? That is madness.

There are a million ways this could have been handled better but D&D just chose easy and stupid.

The Cersei/Jaimie greatest love of all ending? UGGGHH.

[spaceghostess]

4 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

Positivity post: for all the talk of Kit's limited acting, I could see him physically thinking "ugh, Sansa, why" when Varys approached him. And to Jon's credit, he did not vocalize this. It was a moment that he could have said something dumb and didn't; I could even see him working out the chain of actors (if Varys is talking about this to me, then the person who talked had to have been Sansa). But identifying her in the moment would have been foolish, so I'm glad he didn't do it.

Yup, I saw and appreciated the play of microexpressions across his face. Also, there was an eye twitch that was perfect. I've always liked Kit's performance as Jon. Sometimes think I'm seeing a different actor than other people are; I can pretty much always tell what Jon is thinking, even when everybody else complains that he's "expressionless." He also does a lot with breathing, IYKWIM?

Edited May 14, 2019 by spaceghostess

[spaceghostess]

4 hours ago, Marci said:

Jon, well, I will always like Jon. They can’t stop me.  Nuff said.

 

Heee--me too. But they're trying damned hard.

[spaceghostess]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

This is pretty great 

https://m.imgur.com/a/CoyWKMP

That? Was awesome. Therapeutic, even.

Edited May 14, 2019 by spaceghostess

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, Lamima said:

He acts like it's so not his fault that the next book isn't out. FFS, Georgie, get 'er done!!!

If this is the ending he has planned, he can just leave it unfinished as far as I'm concerned.  I have no interest in enduring this garbage ending again.

[Callista]

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

So...anyone else catch that Varys was trying to poison her this episode in the beginning? Before she even did anything? 

Lets make this clear. Until this episode, Dany literally has done nothing to warrant this reaction from Varys or Tyrion. All she has done is grieve a friend. Oh, and feel isolated at a feast. 🙄  Apparently that was enough to send Varys screeching about “ Mad queen!!!” And start to plot to over throw and murder her this episode. Seriously. She has listened to everything Varys and Tyrion have advised her to do up until this point and she has lost a lot.... what in her behavior in season 8, honestly, justifies this Varys heel turn? I mean, she’s right to be paranoid. Her advisors are conspiring behind her back and one of them is plotting to kill and overthrow her. 🤷🏻‍♀️

That is what makes this hard to stomach and is what is pissing people off . This mass slaughter and destruction of Kings Landing is literally like a switch went off in her brain and we are supposed to think that Varys and Tyrion and everyone has been justified in their gaslighting and it’s bullshit. This would have made more sense in season 6 or season 5 even. Season 7 and Season 8 she has been her most restrained and reasonable. 

And it's funny how she goes "mad" right after she's actually won the KL battle.  Her torching the city would be more understandable (though still not justifiable) if she and her forces were actually losing the battle--if the Lannister men and the GC were putting up a really good fight, if some of the scorpions had injured Drogon, etc. D&D's explanation in the BTS just isn't convincing enough.

I believe that D&D want Dany to come off as truly mad and evil so that Jon will be completely justified when he kills her next episode. He can become a True Hero once again after being mostly underwhelming this season. And if he announces that he's giving up his claim to the throne, he's going to come out as even more heroic, saintly, whatever.  Dany has to look bad in the end so that Jon will look heroic again.

[benteen]

Quote

 think they have written Jon into a dead end. He couldn't have been more ineffectual. I can attempt to understand where his head might be at -- he's still reeling from having risen from the dead, he now knows his true identity/parentage (and realizes his girlfriend is actually his aunt), and he very likely did not believe for one second that he/they were going to survive the Army of the Dead.

So, I can forgive him for being unable to think on his feet in recent weeks. But, that's just something else we weren't shown. How much time would it have taken to show him deferring to others on strategic decisions, acting confused and unable to concentrate, or just plain confiding in Davos that he was D.O.N.E.? I mean, I think he could have used an extra couple of weeks to recuperate more than anyone else, but alas.

Yes!  He's this great hero who brought everyone together and he's become increasingly useless and ineffectual in these big battles, like he didn't need to be there.  All to prop up Sansa.

What annoys me too is again the lack of Jon vocalizing.  The incest angle with Dany is clearly bothering him but he DOESN'T SAY ONE THING ABOUT IT TO DANY.  Varys is the only one this season who brings up the fact that she's his aunt.  It's like D&D are afraid to have Jon and Dany have this conversation.  Can Jon bring this up with Dany at least one time?

Tyrion too has become a blithering idiot, being manipulated by everyone and for some bizarre reason, still going out of his way to save Cersei, convinced that she'll do the right thing despite an entire lifetime of knowing she's incapable of that. 

Varys IQ dropped about 100 points and Jaime is again reduced to the one-dimensional villain that D&D have always viewed him as, the "monster who loves killing" that Weiss once described him as. 

It's been clear for a long time that Cersei was a character D&D were in love with.

Edited May 14, 2019 by benteen

[Friendly kitty]

The most shocking episode in the history of the show. And the most realistic. For some reason, he reminded me of World War II and the fascists. Even in previous episodes, sometimes dragons with fire resembled fascists with a flamethrower, and in this episode I saw a direct parallel with these historical events ... And yes, it turns out, Deineris is very similar to Hitler. And now the only possible way out of this situation is her murder. 👿

The destruction of a whole city of civilians was creepy and unfair. It was shocking and scary. And yet such bright accents on such destruction were made. So that everyone will remember, be horrified and understand that only a tyrant can dream of capturing the world or "liberation".

But the finale of life of Jaime and Cersei was beautiful. It was logical and correct. They were made for each other, loved each other and died the same day. As Jaime did not try to get rid of this destructive love, but you can’t order my heart ... Although it’s a shame for Brienne, yes.

Fight Dog and Mountain - this is something incredible. But there was no other way. They had to die and they died falling into a fire-breathing hell. But Dog pity. It is good that at least Arieh gave him the correct psychological attitude before death. Well done! Now she must kill Deanerys and return to Gendry. Only such a final will be correct.

And John is annoying. Point!😤

[freebie]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

What annoys me too is again the lack of Jon vocalizing.  The incest angle with Dany is clearly bothering him but he DOESN'T SAY ONE THING ABOUT IT TO DANY.  Varys is the only one this season who brings up the fact that she's his aunt.  It's like D&D are afraid to have Jon and Dany have this conversation.  Can Jon bring this up with Dany at least one time?

Well, if Saint Jon stated that he was uncomfortable with incest, then the audience (and the show runners) would have to acknowledge that the Greatest Love of All, which involves a twin sister and brother, is also problematic. Better not to say anything, I guess. Sometimes, I wish Tywin was still around. He would set everybody straight on this topic in a New York minute.

Edited May 14, 2019 by freebie

[tv-talk]

19 hours ago, SNeaker said:

No, she's also a woman. We were foolish to think they were being set up in opposition to each other, the villainous female ruler vs the just one. The answer is clearly going to be a man.

I think there's just as much chance she ends up on top, and then people will hate that she turned bad while simultaneously being happy she won since the story is all about feminism and men vs women for a lot of people. 

[tv-talk]

5 hours ago, Callista said:

I believe that D&D want Dany to come off as truly mad and evil so that Jon will be completely justified when he kills her next episode.

They have neutered Jon to such an extent and made him dumber than even normal for him that I suspect he will trust Dany one more time and she'll kill him.

[nodorothyparker]

21 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The show didn't flesh it out and also they rushed it, so once again they look like idiots.

Rhaegal was wounded, and could barely fly.  The Scopions were a surprise.  (Which, come on!  She's flying!  She didn't look for the Euron Fleet or danger?  More piss poor writing, like the idiotic battle plans that made Tyrion and everyone else look like fools, but hey!  Blockbuster moments!  Great cinematography!  COOL CGI!

Drogon is stronger, bigger, smarter because he never wasted away in dungeons like his siblings.

Oh, I think it will happen in the books, and I think it will be AMAZING.

Jaime in the books is an amazing character, not just the "make Lena look great" crutch he is in the show.

Jaime has remained faithful to Cersei all these years.  For him to break that?  IS HUGE.  It's massive for him, and such growth.

These writers turned it into a shipping throwaway.

After all, the only one that matters to them is Lena.  Oh, and Peter.

They both sold the hell out of it, but honestly, I think Cersei is long dead in the books.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but she's not sympathetic in the books, she's a monster.  Her children are pawns in her game for power.  Tyrion and Jaime care more about her kids that she does.

The writers have given wonderful stuff to a wonderful actress, but not in service of the story.

Book Jaime is so complicated and amazing.  Show Jaime, while in wonderful acting hands?  So frustrating, and to me?  All to prop up Lena.

I'll take good writing every single day of the year, and twice on leap year.

Ha!  Yeah, I feel like Goldilocks.

This is too slow!

This is too fast!

I just haven't found my "this is just right" space between books and show.

I just want to cosign this entire post.  If I have to pick one, Jaime Lannister is my single favorite book character.  I've been trying to explain to my nonbook reader husband why I've taken what the show did to his story in these final episodes so badly and you hit on a lot of it. 

It's not even the final end that matters so much to me, I guess, but that they didn't even try to connect the things in any organic way that showed that there was more to it than just being a jerk who rode off in the middle of the night to go die with his creepy incest twin.  My preferred ending for the entire Lannister mess has long been Cersei either locked away forgotten somewhere or dying completely alone knowing that everybody is either dead or left her because of her own choices and that her brothers went on without her beyond the reach of her toxic influence.  But sticking with this particular ending, had it been told in a way that made sense and let it breathe it still could have worked.  For every redemption story, there's another story of someone who does fall short of overcoming the things that made them, even if it's just a few yards before the finish line.  Had Jaime's time in Winterfell honoring his promises to be "the man I need you to be" and finally finally! breaking free to love a woman whose love did bring out the best in him been strung out over several episodes of a regular season, that could have been amazing to watch when the news of Cersei's imminent defeat stirred up all of his former demons and self loathing and that sense of prior claim.  There's an ultimate truth in it being really difficult for most people to break lifelong patterns even when they know full well how destructive those patterns can be, just as there's truth in just love alone not being enough to save you.  There's your tragic ending.  We shouldn't be sitting here days later guessing if that's what he's doing or he's going on either a rescue/murder mission or if he fully understands he's choosing to throw away everything for something that will destroy him.   Instead, we're left to try to deduce all of this from Jaime and Brienne's tortured final scene that ends up being played much straighter than the storytelling normally is.

I'm not a book purist by any stretch.  For awhile, I've been resigned to the idea that we'll probably never see the last books and I was going to be okay with the show telling us how it ends because hey, an ending is still an ending.  But this is just terrible on multiple fronts as the rush rush rush to put a bow on this thing is trashing many of the characters and stories that made it worth telling in the first place.

[benteen]

To D&D, Jaime is "a monster who loves killing."  That was there take on him in Season 2 after they invented the scene of him killing his cousin.  Ignoring the fact that Cersei is an even bigger monster in the books and they toned her down by about 90% on the show.  She's crying about her baby at the end.  It reminds me of how they took a complicated character Catelyn in the books and reduced her to a generic mother figure on the show.

Tyrion is a much more complicated character in the books and they toned him down to make him a good guy.  Hell, they made him a saint.  Mind you, D&D deserve credit for eliminating some of his negative traits (where do whores go?) and streamlining his boring road trip in Meereen.  But they decided in Season 2 to reduce his intelligence by about 100 points, CONVINCED that he could get Cersei to stand down in King's Landing despite a lifetime of evidence that should have convinced him otherwise.  Book Tyrion at least wouldn't have pursued such a futile effort.

Stannis is another character they wrecked but that's another story.

All the actors and actresses who play these characters did an amazing job with them and deserve the various accolades and awards they've received.  But a lot of the time they did it in spite of D&D's writing.

Edited May 14, 2019 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

To me it was incredibly telling to read at some point recently that D&D were "surprised" that Jaime was such a hugely popular character.  They supposedly read the books they were adapting, right?  How did they not know that?  Every reader survey I've ever seen anywhere lists his chapters among the top 3 or 4 favorite POVs in the series.  That after nearly seven seasons of watching that better man struggle to get out after sacrificing his reputation and sense of honor and self to prevent what basically happened this last episode they can give him a line like he never cared that much about the innocent people of King's Landing anyway that anyone could and apparently did take it at face value defies comprehension.  

I don't mind them toning down some of the elements that made book Tyrion cartoonish or just plain tiresome, but yeah, apparently that toning down also made him stupid where the sister that's been trying to kill him on or off for the entire length of the series is concerned.  Softening Cersei isn't such a problem on its own either but that it always seemed to come at the expense of one of her brothers' characters.

[lucindabelle]

2 hours ago, Friendly kitty said:

The most shocking episode in the history of the show. And the most realistic. For some reason, he reminded me of World War II and the fascists. Even in previous episodes, sometimes dragons with fire resembled fascists with a flamethrower, and in this episode I saw a direct parallel with these historical events ... And yes, it turns out, Deineris is very similar to Hitler. And now the only possible way out of this situation is her murder. 👿

You’ve got this exactly backwards.

hitler never freed any slaves. Hitler never had any “right” to rule.

cersei blew up the sept. Cersei started the war with the starks.

drogon bombing KL is much more like allies bombing Hiroshima. Innocents died there too and many people argue we shouldn’t have done it.

[Dame sans merci]

53 minutes ago, benteen said:

To D&D, Jaime is "a monster who loves killing."  That was there take on him in Season 2 after they invented the scene of him killing his cousin.  Ignoring the fact that Cersei is an even bigger monster in the books and they toned her down by about 90% on the show.  She's crying about her baby at the end.  It reminds me of how they took a complicated character Catelyn in the books and reduced her to a generic mother figure on the show.

Tyrion is a much more complicated character in the books and they toned him down to make him a good guy.  Hell, they made him a saint.  Mind you, D&D deserve credit for eliminating some of his negative traits (where do whores go?) and streamlining his boring road trip in Meereen.  But they decided in Season 2 to reduce his intelligence by about 100 points, CONVINCED that he could get Cersei to stand down in King's Landing despite a lifetime of evidence that should have convinced him otherwise.  Book Tyrion at least wouldn't have pursued such a futile effort.

Stannis is another character they wrecked but that's another story.

All the actors and actresses who play these characters did an amazing job with them and deserve the various accolades and awards they've received.  But a lot of the time they did it in spit of D&D's writing.

To very much illustrate your point:

Ugh.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Dame sans merci

[bijoux]

1 minute ago, Dame sans merci said:

To very much prove your point:

Ugh.

I couldn't help but laugh at going Notting Hill on Cersei. Sure, same thing. 

 

[FemmyV]

17 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

The actor who plays Bran seems to think that the character believes that history should unfold naturally while he watches.

Except when he wanted Sam to tell Jon about Rheagar and Lyanna.

[FemmyV]

28 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

You’ve got this exactly backwards.

hitler never freed any slaves. Hitler never had any “right” to rule.

cersei blew up the sept. Cersei started the war with the starks.

drogon bombing KL is much more like allies bombing Hiroshima. Innocents died there too and many people argue we shouldn’t have done it.

Yet, the preview for next week looks very much like Dany's going to get her Nuremburg moment. I wonder where her adoring masses will come from? Certainly not KL?

[Tesla]

It seems to me that Varys will be the one to kill Dany.  Rewatching the scene with the Little Bird, it looks like he is poisoning her food through the child working in the kitchen.  She was never called off either so it may still happen.  Or I may be seeing something that isn't there. 

[domina89]

16 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Perhaps she had a really bad headache from previously starving herself.

Well I get pretty violent, too, when I'm hangry.

3 hours ago, benteen said:

What annoys me too is again the lack of Jon vocalizing.  The incest angle with Dany is clearly bothering him but he DOESN'T SAY ONE THING ABOUT IT TO DANY.  Varys is the only one this season who brings up the fact that she's his aunt.  It's like D&D are afraid to have Jon and Dany have this conversation.  Can Jon bring this up with Dany at least one time?

I think we are supposed to assume Dany knows Jon is uncomfortable with the incest thing but doesn't care.  We have seen her make advances on him twice now despite his obvious discomfort.  That actually makes it seem like Dany is trying to force Jon into a relationship knowing he is uncomfortable, which is worse.  I think that is the intention of the writers- to try to drive home the point that Dany is selfish and abusive.  And Jon says nothing because he's afraid of her or something?  I don't know... it definitely seems like they are making Jon seem victimized and afraid to speak up.  It's all part of the Dany character assassination plot, imo.

[YaddaYadda]

32 minutes ago, domina89 said:

Well I get pretty violent, too, when I'm hangry.

So what you're saying is that Dany should have had a Snickers.

Edited May 14, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[AuntieMame]

19 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Arya is dead and she's going to join the seven.

I wondered while watching if it was a death hallucination ala Incident at Owl Creek Bridge. You aren't alone, but wow, if the last episode shows Arya's death in KL, I think the internet might break. It would at least give Jon motive to kill Dany if Arya was killed with the innocents of King's Landing. 

[AuntieMame]

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I just want to cosign this entire post.  If I have to pick one, Jaime Lannister is my single favorite book character.  I've been trying to explain to my nonbook reader husband why I've taken what the show did to his story in these final episodes so badly and you hit on a lot of it. 

It's not even the final end that matters so much to me but that they didn't even try to connect the things in any organic way that showed that it was more to it than just being a jerk who rode off in the middle of the night to go die with his creepy incest twin.  My preferred ending for the entire Lannister mess has long been Cersei either locked away forgotten somewhere or dying completely alone knowing that everybody is either dead or left her because of her own choices and that her brothers went on without her beyond the reach of her toxic influence.  But sticking with this particular ending, had it been told in a way that made sense and let it breathe it still could have worked.  For every redemption story, there's another story of someone who does fall short of overcoming the things that made them, even if it's just a few yards before the finish line.  Had Jaime's time in Winterfell honoring his promises to be "the man I need you to be" and finally finally! breaking free to love a woman whose love did bring out the best in him been strung out over several episodes of a regular season, that could have been amazing to watch when the news of Cersei's imminent defeat stirred up all of his former demons and self loathing and that sense of prior claim.  There's an ultimate truth in it being really difficult for most people to break lifelong patterns even when they know full well how destructive those patterns can be, just as there's truth in just love alone not being enough to save you.  There's your tragic ending.  We shouldn't be sitting here days later guessing if that's what he's doing or he's going on either a rescue/murder mission or if he fully understands he's choosing to throw away everything for something that will destroy him.   Instead, we're left to try to deduce all of this from Jaime and Brienne's tortured final scene that ends up being played much straighter than the storytelling normally is.

I'm not a book purist by any stretch.  For awhile, I've been resigned to the idea that we'll probably never see the last books and I was going to be okay with the show telling us how it ends because hey, an ending is still an ending.  But this is just terrible on multiple fronts as the rush rush rush to put a bow on this thing is trashing many of the characters and stories that made it worth telling in the first place.

noDorothyParker - I'm screaming yes in agreement like Sally in the deli scene. I loved your take on human failures in breaking toxic patterns as exemplified in Jaime. Again, an actual life issue for many people including me and worthy of narrative examination. I'd love to watch that. Instead we got this hot mess. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by AuntieMame

[mac123x]

20 hours ago, Kate47 said:

Watching the Inside the Game episode, it makes sense why King's Landing looked so different. They had to destroy it, which they couldn't do in Dubrovnik, so they built KL on a backlot.

I was wondering if Harren the Black had much better masons than Maegor the Cruel.  When attacked with dragonfire, Harren's castle partially melted.  On the other hand, the Red Keep collapsed like it was made out of cheap styrofoam blocks.

[benteen]

Here's a quote from an article by Evan Romano at Men's Health that brings up another great point about Jaime's fate...

Quote

Why would Cersei still be the woman that Jaime loves? Yes, blood is always going to be thicker than water, but let’s consider all that’s happened. Even setting aside the fact that Jaime and Brienne clearly had something that the show should've, and did lean into, Bronn showed up to Winterfell last week, and if Cersei had her way, he would’ve shot a crossbow bolt right through Jaime’s face. Did everyone forget that this happened? Did Tyrion seriously live through this, and still suggest that his brother escape and live a life far away with his murderous, scheming sister? It seems like the showrunners might have completely forgotten that they wrote this branch storyline for Bronn.

https://www.menshealth.com/entertainment/a27452322/jaime-lannister-death-game-of-thrones/

[BusyOctober]

Sums it up for me.  

[mac123x]

I'm watching the Burlington Bar reaction videos, and another meta-nitpick jumped out at me.    These episodes were touted as being longer than the usual hour, but how much of that additional time is due to:

1.  Excessive slow-motion

2.  Pregnant pauses that stretch on-and-on (specifically, waiting to hear the bells ringing)

3l  Montages (often slo-mo also)

Seems that these are close to 1 hour long episodes stretched in editing.

[AuntieMame]

1 minute ago, mac123x said:

I'm watching the Burlington Bar reaction videos, and another meta-nitpick jumped out at me.    These episodes were touted as being longer than the usual hour, but how much of that additional time is due to:

1.  Excessive slow-motion

2.  Pregnant pauses that stretch on-and-on (specifically, waiting to hear the bells ringing)

3l  Montages (often slo-mo also)

Seems that these are close to 1 hour long episodes stretched in editing.

Clearly the writers didn't want to be bothered actually writing something. Two of five episodes have been pretty much dialogue free. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

drogon bombing KL is much more like allies bombing Hiroshima. Innocents died there too and many people argue we shouldn’t have done it.

And even that was a strike to end the war, it wasn't done after surrender. It's more like wanting to pre-emptively bomb the USSR before it could get back on its feet just to make sure it wasn't a threat later.

[ulkis]

if Cersei had her way, he would’ve shot a crossbow bolt right through Jaime’s face. Did everyone forget that this happened? Did Tyrion seriously live through this, and still suggest that his brother escape and live a life far away with his murderous, scheming sister?

That's a very good point. I guess it could be fanwanked that Tyrion figured he had a better chance surviving that way, but they still should have at least had Tyrion say something like, "dammit Jaime you fucking idiot."