S08.E05: The Bells

[Daisy]

1 minute ago, Popples said:

This makes me think of the bullshit Illyrio was feeding Viserys in the first episode, "the people [of Westeros] drink secret toasts to your name." Coupled with Dany telling Jon about how the people love him and not her, now I'm wondering if she thought she was going to get another "Myhsa" moment and that was her tipping point.

mhm. people rushed to her and called her mother for saving her. 
and she's thinking okay westeros will LOVE me because they hate Cersei. 
but people aren't, and didn't and with Jon's claim it's like. well eff it. if i can't seduce them.....

[RealReality]

5 minutes ago, Drogo said:

A girl providing the Queen's advisor with information about the Queen's well-being doesn't require a "The greater the risk, the greater the reward" pep talk. 

I think it might.  She is a little girl and she is being watched by a bunch of big, scary soliders.  I'm much older and that would freak me out too, even if I was just reporting information back.  So, for me, it's not dispositive.

[VCRTracking]

I really do hope Emilia Clarke gets an Emmy nomination because she really brought it this episode. That moment when she hears the bell rings and looks at the Red Keep...I have never been scared of Dany before but she was terrifying at that moment.

[RealReality]

4 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Martha: She won't eat.
Varys: We'll try again at supper.
Martha: I think they're watching me. 
Varys: Who? 
Martha: Her soldiers.
Varys: Of course they are. That's their job. What have I told you, Martha? The greater the risk, the greater the reward. Go on. They'll be missing you in the kitchen.

Allright, the "we'll try again at supper line" is pretty damning.  I didn't remember that, I did remember varys giving Jon the information that she wouldn't eat so I generally thought it was part of varys schtick of always having the 411.

[DigitalCount]

3 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I think it might.  She is a little girl and she is being watched by a bunch of big, scary soliders.  I'm much older and that would freak me out too, even if I was just reporting information back.  So, for me, it's not dispositive.

I think the quotes by EB are pretty dispositive. What is Varys talking about "trying again" if it's thwarted by Dany refusing to eat?

Edit: looks like you already saw lol, I'll go back to shutting up

Edited May 13, 2019 by DigitalCount

[tv-talk]

5 minutes ago, Detective005 said:

 In 1000 dc a city like king's landing would have been destroyed immediately instead of the constant compromises of Tyron and Varys.

That's not true. Just because there were massacres doesnt mean EVERY encounter ended in one. There were treaties and cease fires and all the rest of what we do today. The people in 1,000BC were really not different from people today.

[mothmonsterman]

I joked with a friend that episode 3 of this season was so good that they could show a black screen for the rest of the series and we should be grateful. In some ways we are getting lower quality shows, but this is still a damned good show. 

Yeah, I wish some things were different, and I saw some things coming, but it was still awesome to see Dany burn the city. 

I guess I am a mean person, because I laughed and said burn them all. I would have still been salty that they did not fight in the Great War. 

Dany came up there to help them. She lost a lot of her men and two dragons. All her trusted advisors and the North acts like they are too good for her. I would burn them too. 

[kieyra]

2 minutes ago, Detective005 said:

Ehm but unfortunately it is.  In 1000 dc a city like king's landing would have been destroyed immediately instead of the constant compromises of Tyron and Varys.  I don't understand why everyone seems scandalized.  This is war, you know.  This is what happens when we send our soldiers to war.  Showrunner understood this point.  They were bold and realistic.  The problem for me is the way they developed the story

I legitimately have no idea how you're conflating people's complaints about poor characterization in a fantasy television show about magic and dragons with historical earth-based warfare or whatever. 

That said, real-life history is pretty cool, and you should definitely read more of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hastings

[terrymct]

16 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I don't blame Dany for killing varys, I blame Tyrion for dropping a dime on him.

Dany and Jon have the best claims to the iron throne.  Who else is even close?  If Jon refuses to take it, varys has no one else to prop up.  Maybe Sansa?  But she doesn't have a strong claim, she doesn't have dragons and she doesn't have Giants.  She has a vastly defeated northern force.  And that northern force is loyal to Jon....who would never support queen Sansa.

Gendry is Robert Baratheon's son.  He's actually got the best claim, more so than Dany or Jon.

[Popples]

1 hour ago, Kanner said:

I just can't compare combatants (Tarlys) to people caught in the crossfire.

Neither can I. She at least gave them a chance to bend the knee. Tyrion offered to send Randyll to the Wall, but he refused because he didn't recognize her as his queen, but still, they had a chance. The residents in King's Landing didn't.

[enoughcats]

So, to rule seven kingdoms we have one young woman, her shell shocked nephew, maybe a dwarf, a eunuch with no personnel skills and an anger problem, and ____________.

That does not make for tax gathering, crops planted, orphans fed, battlegrounds cleared, etc.  The lack of structure and Dany's apparent lack of lieutenants does not bode well.  Nor does the remnant Dorthraki army that can't get home, likewise the Unsullied, since most ships in the world are burned.  Rape, pillage and plunder are going to be the order of the day, regardless.

[MadameKillerB]

Re: Varys

Curious: How many of those messages had he sent out during that day before Grey Worm came to take him to his death?

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Viserys was garbage.. But so was Tywin and at least Tyrion showed some kind of emotion... You wanna say she hated viserys all her life.. 

I don't think she hated Viserys all of her life at all, she grew up expecting to marry him.  But under the circumstances the threat to her unborn child (which he had just made, and was the reason Drogo killed him) overrode all other emotions.

[Wendy]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When you described Dany this way, it reminded me of what I thought when she said that Sansa had as much a hand in Varys' death as Dany did - that is the same kind of shit that an abuser says to justify their abusive behavior: "Why did you make me hit you again? You know I go crazy when other guys look at you! It's YOUR fault that I did that! You made me do it!"

Whatever trauma Dany has been through (and I don't deny that she's been through a lot of trauma in her life), she still chose to burn thousands of innocent people who she's been claiming are her people and her subjects.

But that doesn't mean Dany is worse than Cersei. Cersei flat out said in the previous episode: "Keep the gates open. If she wants to take the castle, she'll have to murder thousands of innocent people first." According to Dany, Tyrion played into Sansa's hand and did exactly what she wanted by telling people about Jon's parentage, but Dany played right into Cersei's hands and did exactly what she wanted by killing all of those people." Cersei wanted them inside the walls not to protect them but to sacrifice them to Dany's violence in the hopes of making Dany look bad. That makes Cersei just as culpable in their deaths. If she had told people to stay in their homes, they wouldn't have been in the Red Keep for Dany to set on fire.

Dany burned the people in Kings Landing. 

She made it to the Red Keep afterwards. 

She started at the gates and worked her way to the Red Keep in a precise formation. The Red Keep building was destroyed but the city of King Landing and his habitants were the ones burned to a crisp.  She went street by street trying to achieve the maximum number of casualties. 

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

And murdered thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of innocent people.  Fuck Missandei's advice.

Tens of thousands is wishful thinking. King’s Landing was home to over a million people.

If Dany only killed 10% of them then she matched Hiroshima. If she killed 20% then she matched the deaths from every nuclear bomb ever dropped.

Half the population feels more realistic... Half a MILLION people burned to death or slaughtered by her troops.

Dany also obliterated the food stores and many of the buildings there with her indiscriminate fire so those who did survive face starvation and death from exposure to the elements as winter drags on.

And she is ABSOLUTELY making that charnal house the seat of her Empire. She decided to be feared so she use the shell of the city to remind everyone of what she can do to them if she feels like it.

This is her better world; Do as I say or watch everyone you’ve ever loved die screaming.

Side-bar: I can’t believe I actually missed it because it was right in front of my face... ANOTHER sign of Dany’s end was basically in her beginning. The True King is Ordered and Generative and one of Dany’s most called back points is that she is  barren. She’s always been the opposite of generative.

* * * *

Whoever rules after she’s brought down won’t be doing so from King’s Landing. Its a mass grave. It needs to be buried and markers placed to remember what happened there.

If it’s Jon (and I expect it will be) I expect the ending of the series to mirror its beginning... the King comes to Winterfell, only instead of it being to pull the Starks apart, it will coming home to unite them.

And really, who else is there? The Great Houses are gutted and what’s left of the characters we actually care about are almost entirely in Jon’s camp.

Dany and Greyworm are all that’s left of her camp. Jon, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Davos, Brienne and Pod, Tormund, Sam and Gilly, Tyrion and Bronn are all that’s left of the cast and every last one of them has reason to back Jon once Dany is deposed and many even have authority to back it up.

Sam Tarly has as much claim to the Reach as anyone (Cersei made the Tarly’s the new Lords of the Reach) and he loves Jon. Bronn wouldn’t care as long as he gets his castle.

Sansa’s the Lady of Winterfell and the one who floated Jon to Tyrion in the first place. Her cousin is Lord of the Vale and easily led. If Sansa’s uncle (or infant cousin) isn’t returned as Lord of the Riverlands then Sansa herself is the next in line. Sansa brings three of the Seven Kingdoms to Jon’s camp all by herself.

Dany may have legitimized him, but Gendry bonded with Jon in battle and would support someone who brought down the person who murdered virtually everyone in his home.

After betraying Varys and Dany proving Varys right, I expect Tyrion (now Lord of the Westerlands with the death of his older siblings) to be wracked with guilt and looking for some way to do right. Probably by backing Varys’ choice.

That leaves the Ironborn and the new rulers in Dorne as the only powers who wouldn’t be already in Jon’s camp and I don’t think they’d have too many objections.

Throw in Jon’s lesson in this episode... that it doesn’t matter if he wants the Throne or not. It HAS to be him; the one who absolutely hates the power, but loves the people; or THIS is what will keep happening... and you have the True King archetype in a nutshell.

The True King knows that being King isn’t about him or what he wants. It’s about his duty to the people. He is king not to impose his will, but to protect them and give them the ability to grow.

Jon, with Sansa (the lover), Arya (the warrior) and Bran (the magician) standing by him is the truest expression of the True King archetype. Throw in Davos as Hand, Sam as Grand Maester and Brienne as head of the Royal Guard and probably got as close to perfect leadership as a place like Westeros is ever going to see.

[sumiregusa]

Game of Thrones is spending its last hours ruining Daenerys Targaryen

I think reading this would benefit everyone at this point.

[kelseykixx]

14 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

Dany's mad queen was modeled after Lala from Vanderpump Rules, after anyone dares to mention her dead father.

I never would have expected to see a VPR crossover reference in a GOT thread. Braavos!

[Bryce Lynch]

28 minutes ago, Popples said:

This makes me think of the bullshit Illyrio was feeding Viserys in the first episode, "the people [of Westeros] drink secret toasts to your name." Coupled with Dany telling Jon about how the people love him and not her, now I'm wondering if she thought she was going to get another "Myhsa" moment and that was her tipping point.

It also makes me think about how Varys wanted a foolish weakling, with the same Mad King as Dany,  like Viserys to sit on the Iron Thorne.   Varys wanted to be the real power in the Realm.  He thought he could control Viserys and he thought he could control Jon.  He knew he could influence Dany, but couldn't control her.  

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[penelope79]

I am one of those viewers who defended the show even when I did not agree with certain choices. But this time they managed to lose even me.

I did not like the episode AT ALL. The only scene I liked has been the moment between Jaime and Tyrion, which speaks volumes.

I guess this is how the books will end too, but for the book readers (I am not),  I hope the plot won’t be as rushed. I know that D&D only had 6 episodes, but did they really have to write them so sloppily? Especially this one? Let’s forget for a moment that I disagree with the plot choices: I HATED the way they’ve been written in the first place. The development of most characters has been thrown outside the window and, as much as I try to understand why, it doesn’t make much sense.

I mentioned the plot. Many people said: “Why are you surprised? It was obvious they were taking the Dany aka The Mad Queen route.” Right. I should’ve known from the very not-so-subtle first scene with Daenerys. She didn’t brush her hair and she was not eating, nor sleeping. Of course, she was going crazy. *SARCASM MODE OFF* But what about how Dany has been written for the previous 7 f***ing seasons? Sure, she’s been depicted as someone capable of atrocities (like basically every single character in this show except, maybe, Hodor) but still human and rational enough to not put them in place. Maybe, as others have said, she’s not crazy, she’s just furious like she never was before (and in my opinion, rightfully so). But the fact is, the show wants us to believe she's now the Mad Queen, in order to justify upcoming things, like (and I’m just speculating, I am 100% spoiler-free) either Jon or Arya killing her off, but first having Sansa and Arya telling him: “See, we told you so! We were right not trusting your Queen! She’s maaaaad!”

Oh, I get D&D’s (or Martin’s, I don’t even care by now) intention. Dany has never been really crazy or bad so far. But with people she cares about not trusting her sanity and believing she will eventually turn bad, she thought: “You know what? I’m not like this, but if you decided to ditch me and betraying me because you’re all afraid I might be, then I will!” Which, from a certain perspective, is reasoning I can even be ok with. But not to the cost of completely destroy the female PROTAGONIST of the show like they did. (On a side note: yes, it’s been foreshadowed many times that Dany could turn mad like her father, but also that she was not willing to, and I don’t think she was. Do you know what would’ve been really unexpected? Dany deciding to NOT become the Mad Queen and, consequentially, giving the middle finger to everyone who did not trust her).

And Dany’s character has not even been the only “victim”. I did already have some issue with the NK, but I preferred to joke about it (8 seasons of winter is coming and then the main threat to the WHOLE WORLD goes down so easily??) but now is too much. Jaime’s path to redemption? Let’s erase it, he needs to die with Cersei. Cersei, who was so BAD to deserve the first place of the podium in the challenge Who is the last standing and biggest GOT villain? (because the NK had already been killed off), receives one of the most ridiculous ends ever (and apparently, there is no younger brother who kills her, after all). Of course, it makes sense that the biggest GOT villain is, after all, Daenerys Targaryen: because, this is what am I supposed to buy, right? Spoiler alert, I don’t. At this point, although I perfectly know this is not what is going to happen, I almost wish Daenerys wins.  But of course, she will probably be killed by Arya, another character who had an amazing storyline and has basically become so invincible and infallible to become a Mary Sue.

Not only the characters: most of all, the audience deserved so much better. I honestly don’t have any hope left for the series finale. I’m not even disappointed, I’m sad.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Nor would the silver haired orphaned girl with dragons from lineage that was driven from power and gets to rule benevolently after deposing a tyrant. That's about as big a fantasy trope as you're ever going to find.

So VERY true.  I think the story morphed well beyond that over the years but it was rooted in epic fantasy with a male gaze to begin with.  As seasons progressed it got so much better than that - acting, writing, etc...   But the last episode felt very much like destroying the old corrupt way of life and bringing in the new.  And Danys moral compass had always been grounded by Jorah - who loved her unconditionally.  The only unconditional love she had left was Greyworm. That was the Mother of Dragons on Drogo.  And she intentionally burned KL down to take down the old IMO.  

Earlier reply to me was that there was no one left to make the new generation.  But that's not accurate.  PLENTY of people left in Westros who were not in KL.  The truth of her ruthlessness will travel but if she sets up a new world order someplace OTHER than King's Landing, it's a good idea.  Kings Landing's critical resource as a harbor port will have to be redirected somehow.  Becuase she needs to distance herself from that location big-time. Her 'campaign slogan' should be she cut off the rotted limb and now the kingdom can flourish.

But I'm not sure the Starks will buy that.  They lived up North because of their disdain for the Capital.  But they also were taught by Ned that the ends don't justify the means.  I expect a clash.      

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Tens of thousands is wishful thinking. King’s Landing was home to over a million people.

If Dany only killed 10% of them then she matched Hiroshima. If she killed 20% then she matched the deaths from every nuclear bomb ever dropped.

Half the population feels more realistic... Half a MILLION people burned to death or slaughtered by her troops.

Dany also obliterated the food stores and many of the buildings there with her indiscriminate fire so those who did survive face starvation and death from exposure to the elements as winter drags on.

And she is ABSOLUTELY making that charnal house the seat of her Empire. She decided to be feared so she use the shell of the city to remind everyone of what she can do to them if she feels like it.

This is her better world; Do as I say or watch everyone you’ve ever loved die screaming.

Side-bar: I can’t believe I actually missed it because it was right in front of my face... ANOTHER sign of Dany’s end was basically in her beginning. The True King is Ordered and Generative and one of Dany’s most called back points is that she is  barren. She’s always been the opposite of generative.

* * * *

Whoever rules after she’s brought down won’t be doing so from King’s Landing. Its a mass grave. It needs to be buried and markers placed to remember what happened there.

If it’s Jon (and I expect it will be) I expect the ending of the series to mirror its beginning... the King comes to Winterfell, only instead of it being to pull the Starks apart, it will coming home to unite them.

And really, who else is there? The Great Houses are gutted and what’s left of the characters we actually care about are almost entirely in Jon’s camp.

Dany and Greyworm are all that’s left of her camp. Jon, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Davos, Brienne and Pod, Tormund, Sam and Gilly, Tyrion and Bronn are all that’s left of the cast and every last one of them has reason to back Jon once Dany is deposed and many even have authority to back it up.

Sam Tarly has as much claim to the Reach as anyone (Cersei made the Tarly’s the new Lords of the Reach) and he loves Jon. Bronn wouldn’t care as long as he gets his castle.

Sansa’s the Lady of Winterfell and the one who floated Jon to Tyrion in the first place. Her cousin is Lord of the Vale and easily led. If Sansa’s uncle (or infant cousin) isn’t returned as Lord of the Riverlands then Sansa herself is the next in line. Sansa brings three of the Seven Kingdoms to Jon’s camp all by herself.

Dany may have legitimized him, but Gendry bonded with Jon in battle and would support someone who brought down the person who murdered virtually everyone in his home.

After betraying Varys and Dany proving Varys right, I expect Tyrion (now Lord of the Westerlands with the death of his older siblings) to be wracked with guilt and looking for some way to do right. Probably by backing Varys’ choice.

That leaves the Ironborn and the new rulers in Dorne as the only powers who wouldn’t be already in Jon’s camp and I don’t think they’d have too many objections.

Throw in Jon’s lesson in this episode... that it doesn’t matter if he wants the Throne or not. It HAS to be him; the one who absolutely hates the power, but loves the people; or THIS is what will keep happening... and you have the True King archetype in a nutshell.

The True King knows that being King isn’t about him or what he wants. It’s about his duty to the people. He is king not to impose his will, but to protect them and give them the ability to grow.

Jon, with Sansa (the lover), Arya (the warrior) and Bran (the magician) standing by him is the truest expression of the True King archetype. Throw in Davos as Hand, Sam as Grand Maester and Brienne as head of the Royal Guard and probably got as close to perfect leadership as a place like Westeros is ever going to see.

I doubt Dany got anywhere near half the population, but what she did was bad enough.  Killing one innocent woman or child, intentionally, as opposed to as collateral damage would have made her evil.  Killing thousands or tens of thousands or half a million doesn't make much difference in my book, it was pure, wanton evil, for evil's sake.   I hate what D&D did to this character and this show.  

[Keely]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I think one of the reasons I liked the episode is because I never, ever saw Dany as a hero at all.  To me she was too much "white savior" trope for my taste.  I hated that scene when the slaves were carrying her around, like she was some kind of "white goddess."  UGH, I think I started hating her then.

I always preferred the Starks, to me the show that began with them, should end with them.  I have always liked Sansa and more now, because despite, or maybe because of the hell she went through, she knows what is important to her, remember when she kept asking Dany, "what about the north?"  Dany didn't say a word to her, nothing, no, "of course you can rule the north Sansa, it's yours."  But not a thing.  That bugged me.  

So Dany burning everything in sight didn't surprise me one bit.  So many actual rulers get that taste of power and say, "fuck all of you."  And let's not forget last season when she burned Sam's father and brother because they refused to "bend the knee."  

If Dany can be labeled white savior trope, I'd be hard pressed not to label the Starks the same (plus a few other tropes). Especially Jon at this point. 

Yes, Sansa has gone through a lot. So has most everyone in the series. She was also the original instrument for her own hell. 

I hated what they did to Dany - despite knowing it was coming - because it was out of character and tossed her previous, long held lines, aside. I never saw her as a hero either. Personally, I find heroes to be boring, especially in the fantasy genre. They lack complexity and layers. Removing last night's wtf, she was firmly a gray hat to me. Neither hero, nor villain with the tendency to display both characteristics at times.

Dany didn't always do the right thing or do it perfectly. She had a ruthless streak. She'd make the hard choices and even the harsh ones, but that didn't mean she was mad or evil. Once she returned home, Sansa also moved more into the gray camp when it came to ruling. Her view on being a merciful ruler swung toward a pragmatic, gray hatted leader who understood ruthlessness has as much place as mercy.

[kelseykixx]

I truly felt nothing when Dany was burning the city down, was I supposed to care? For years we've followed all these "royal" bloodlines who have shown utter disdain for the common people, except maybe dreadfully noble Jon, and all of a sudden I'm supposed to be attached to and care about a random woman and her daughter that were introduced for 10 minutes?  Burn that shit down Dany, why introduce dragons if we can't enjoy them wrecking shit for an hour? 

Also, none of this would have happened if we didn't have to watch Tyrion/Varys act like complete out-of-character morons and advise her to the do the wrong thing for episodes on end, resulting in her essentially losing a dragon for no reason. If she would have stuck to her plan from the beginning she could have burned Cersei out of the Red Keep and sat on the throne THEN helped in the great war.

I'm more so annoyed by the awful, coincidental plot points that made absolutely no sense. Oh, Jamie just got stabbed by Euron who incidentally floated up on the same tiny beach, but does he die? Nope, still manages to make his way all the way up to the castle and find Cersei in the nick of time where they die in love together (wut?). Oh, Varys gets caught committing treason against his sworn Queen and I'm supposed to feel bad for him? I just couldn't bring myself to care about the townspeople when all our favorite characters storylines are just abruptly ended and butchered.

Edited May 13, 2019 by kelseykixx

[Bryce Lynch]

30 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I don't blame Dany for killing varys, I blame Tyrion for dropping a dime on him.

Dany and Jon have the best claims to the iron throne.  Who else is even close?  If Jon refuses to take it, varys has no one else to prop up.  Maybe Sansa?  But she doesn't have a strong claim, she doesn't have dragons and she doesn't have Giants.  She has a vastly defeated northern force.  And that northern force is loyal to Jon....who would never support queen Sansa.

I didn't see the poison thing, and I thought varys little bird was mostly giving him information on danys state of mind.

But with no other ruler to prop up and without knowledge of a death plot (Tyrion didn't know of one) varys is powerless, so what was the point of giving him up to Dany at this point? Especially as Tyrion is starting to see that varys is right 

I didn't blame Tyrion for ratting out Varys.  It was one of the best things he has done in several seasons.    Varys trying to rally support for Jon, behind her back, was enough grounds for him to be executed for treason.  Attempting to assassinate the Queen with poison was far worse.  

[sarthaz]

Everyone's pretty mad about this episode (and season in general), but I'm not bothered by most of it. All the stuff that happened last night seemed totally in keeping with the characters and was set up by their arcs. I think the audience, just like Jon and Tyrion, wants Dany to be someone she's not.

Really the only thing that bothered me in this episode was when Cersei just walked past Sandor. I get why they did it, but I'd rather he just casually stick her in the side without taking his eyes off Gregor.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, kelseykixx said:

I truly felt nothing when Dany was burning the city down, was I supposed to care? For years we've followed all these "royal" bloodlines who have shown utter disdain for the people, except maybe dreadfully noble Jon, and all of a sudden I'm supposed to be attached to and care about a random woman and her daughter that were introduced for 10 minutes?  

I'm more so annoyed by the awful, coincidental plot points that made absolutely no sense. Oh, Jamie just got stabbed by Euron who incidentally floated up on the same tiny beach, but does he die? Nope, still manages to make his way all the way up to the castle and find Cersei in the nick of time where they die in love together (wut?). Oh, Varys gets caught committing treason against his sworn Queen and I'm supposed to feel bad for him? I just couldn't bring myself to care about the townspeople when all our favorite characters storylines are just abruptly ended and butchered.

I think if the writers hadn't butchered Dany's heel turn so horribly, I would have cared more about the common people who were being slaughtered.   All I was thinking about was how they ruined the show and any sense of realism was gone.   If they had come up with an intelligently written path to Dany doing what she did the horror of it would have resonated much more with me.   

[penelope79]

12 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

Game of Thrones is spending its last hours ruining Daenerys Targaryen

I think reading this would benefit everyone at this point.

100% agree with the article, thanks for sharing the link.

[kelseykixx]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

I think if the writers hadn't butchered Dany's heel turn so horribly, I would have cared more about the common people who were being slaughtered.   All I was thinking about was how they ruined the show and any sense of realism was gone.   If they had come up with an intelligently written path to Dany doing what she did the horror of it would have resonated much more with me.   

I was thinking and they could have made her descent into "madness" make SO MUCH MORE sense with one simple plot change.

Instead of killing Rhaegal last episode for absolutely no reason, why not wait until this episode when it would have made more sense? That would have explained her snapping and going into full rage mode and Rhaegal's death would at least make sense in the story. Killing another dragon off in such a ridiculous manner last episode set off a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

[proserpina65]

30 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Martha: She won't eat.
Varys: We'll try again at supper.
Martha: I think they're watching me. 
Varys: Who? 
Martha: Her soldiers.
Varys: Of course they are. That's their job. What have I told you, Martha? The greater the risk, the greater the reward. Go on. They'll be missing you in the kitchen.

I didn't consider poison while watching that scene, but it makes perfect sense now.

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, Keely said:

If Dany can be labeled white savior trope, I'd be hard pressed not to label the Starks the same (plus a few other tropes). Especially Jon at this point. 

Yes, Sansa has gone through a lot. So has most everyone in the series. She was also the original instrument for her own hell. 

I hated what they did to Dany - despite knowing it was coming - because it was out of character and tossed her previous, long held lines, aside. I never saw her as a hero either. Personally, I find heroes to be boring, especially in the fantasy genre. They lack complexity and layers. Removing last night's wtf, she was firmly a gray hat to me. Neither hero, nor villain with the tendency to display both characteristics at times.

Dany didn't always do the right thing or do it perfectly. She had a ruthless streak. She'd make the hard choices and even the harsh ones, but that didn't mean she was mad or evil. Once she returned home, Sansa also moved more into the gray camp when it came to ruling. Her view on being a merciful ruler swung toward a pragmatic, gray hatted leader who understood ruthlessness has as much place as mercy.

I think Dany was viewed as more a a "white savior" type because she was leading and liberating people of color in Essos.   While, Jon helped save the realm, and the world, he indirectly saved people of color.  But, most of the people we saw him saving were white.  

[sarthaz]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I didn't blame Tyrion for ratting out Varys.  It was one of the best things he has done in several seasons.    Varys trying to rally support for Jon, behind her back, was enough grounds for him to be executed for treason.  Attempting to assassinate the Queen with poison was far worse.  

Yeah, dude's gotta pick a side. His faith was misplaced, and maybe had a few things gone differently (Missandei's execution, Rhaegal's death, Jon telling Sansa, Sansa telling Tyrion, etc), the coin flips the other way. But he chose his side. Can't have Varys going around trying to poison her.

[RealReality]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I didn't blame Tyrion for ratting out Varys.  It was one of the best things he has done in several seasons.    Varys trying to rally support for Jon, behind her back, was enough grounds for him to be executed for treason.  Attempting to assassinate the Queen with poison was far worse.  

Yes, he was quietly rallying support for Jon behind danys back, because he saw that she was unraveling, and his priority was to the common people.

Tyrion had no problem going behind danys back for the sake of the people when be freed Jaime.  And that could have made things exponentially worse for Dany, because cersei could have gotten away and plotted her next move or led a revolt.

Varys was exploring other options and both he and Tyrion, looking out for the good of the people should have been looking at all options when they saw that Dany did not have the right temperment for ruling.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Updated bingo card! 

Not pictured: Cersei, Euron, Qyburn, Varys, the Mountain (as well as Rhaegal and Melisandre in 8.3)

Stay safe, Gendry!

[Raachel2008]

6 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Gendry is Robert Baratheon's son.  He's actually got the best claim, more so than Dany or Jon.

Which makes the creative decision of Dany from all people legitimizing the guy who has some sort of claim even more stupid. D&D really didn't give a fuck, did they? If they did, they could have written a scene where Jon asks Dany to legimitize Gendry, something like "he fought with us, he is one of us the good guys, being a bastard is the worst thing etc", she does it to test Jon while getting even more paranoid. 

Or not do it at all. Her entire plot was about "I'm the rightfully heir, everybody else isn't", legitimizing Gendry was just dumb.

8 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

Re: Varys

Curious: How many of those messages had he sent out during that day before Grey Worm came to take him to his death?

I think he sent those to Riverrunn, the Vale, Dorne, the houses who still have power and could back up Jon/The Starks for the throne if he ever decided to.

7 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

Game of Thrones is spending its last hours ruining Daenerys Targaryen

I think reading this would benefit everyone at this point.

I've read this, but it is one sided argument that ignore the arguments that Dany has ignoired her advisors, burned people, etc. The thing is that neither is exactly wrong or right, but that Dany had agency and when she had to make the most important choice, she burned a citty of one million people.

14 minutes ago, penelope79 said:

But the fact is, the show wants us to believe she's now the Mad Queen, in order to justify upcoming things,

I think the show just avoided the Mad Queen route when they clearly showed Dany deciding to burn the city in a very 'oranized' way, street by street. 

[Wendy]

1 hour ago, jay741982 said:

Yep her too! Her and Varys both felt they could Control Jon and in Sansa's case Dany saw right through as her. Another reason she didnt like Dany. Sansa showed not even keeping a lid on something her brother said for a freaking day that she cares more about herself than anything 

Jon shouldn't have to keep a lid on anything. He has the right to tell whoever he wants, it shouldn't be a secret anymore. Daenerys asking him to keep it a secret just so she could have her claim uncontested is one of the most selfish things I have seen. Tell everybody and have Jon publicly announce his abdication or make him your partner (either by marriage or an alliance) 

Daenerys could have share the news herself in a controlled way but that would have required some level of compromise like give Jon back the North and let him rule it as she rules the other six kingdoms and that is something that Daenerys would never do, compromise, share the power. 

Daenerys has none to blame by herself, she came with a picture in her head that people in Westeros were waiting for her with flowers and parades and when that didn't happen she wasn't able to adjust and use her political strategies, she didn't even care for as long as she had dragons there was no need to negotiate, for as long as she has dragons everybody has to bend the knee or burn. Her dragons, her arrogance, her inability to cope with anything out of the scope of her understanding have been her undoing. 

Danaerys has always been a tyrant but she wanted to portrayed the image of a just queen, well after last night that is no longer possible so she has now decided to remove the mask out of her face and now she is the evil queen. That is not Sansa's fault, that is not Varys, Tyrion, Jon, Cersei's fault. That was a decision carefully considered and consciously made by Daenerys herself. At least now she has revealed herself, there is no more room for her self-serving grandstanding of "saving" Westeros. Someone will have to save Westeros from her. 

[rmontro]

10 minutes ago, kelseykixx said:

 Also, none of this would have happened if we didn't have to watch Tyrion/Varys act like complete out-of-character morons and advise her to the do the wrong thing for episodes on end

Tyrion was supposed to be the smartest guy on the show, and yet virtually every single piece of advice that he gave to Dany was bad, and resulted in failure.  How do you explain that, except that the show had a vendetta against Daenerys and was out to assassinate her character?

[Constantinople]

Scenes I liked in this episode

• Tyrion ratting out Varys and saying goodbye to him
• Arya calling The Hound by his name, Sandor

Scenes I didn't like

• Just about everything else

[kieyra]

10 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Everyone's pretty mad about this episode (and season in general), but I'm not bothered by most of it. All the stuff that happened last night seemed totally in keeping with the characters and was set up by their arcs. I think the audience, just like Jon and Tyrion, wants Dany to be someone she's not.

But if the audience wants that, it's purely a failure of writing.

[kokapetl]

RIP Qyburn. I hate to see the highly intelligent lose to ugly violence, even when it’s their own damn fault for reviving a 7 foot tall muscle man who had been dead for at least a month. 

👨🏻‍⚕️🧟‍♂️😢💰💰💰💔🙏🏻🌈 

Edited May 13, 2019 by kokapetl

[VCRTracking]

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Yes, he was quietly rallying support for Jon behind danys back, because he saw that she was unraveling, and his priority was to the common people.

Tyrion had no problem going behind danys back for the sake of the people when be freed Jaime.  And that could have made things exponentially worse for Dany, because cersei could have gotten away and plotted her next move or led a revolt.

Varys was exploring other options and both he and Tyrion, looking out for the good of the people should have been looking at all options when they saw that Dany did not have the right temperment for ruling.

If Varys wanted to rally support for someone else, he should have fled Dany's camp and declared for Jon or whomever.  

Trying to poison her was way beyond the pale.   

Varys supported Dany until he heard that Jon (who was weaker and he thought he could control) could be on the throne instead.   He was looking out for himself, not "the realm".  The idiot writers made him "right", but he had no new information to make him think Dany was a Mad Queen, as opposed to the great ruler he claimed to believe she would be shortly before.

[tv-talk]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Tyrion was supposed to be the smartest guy on the show, and yet virtually every single piece of advice that he gave to Dany was bad, and resulted in failure.  How do you explain that, except that the show had a vendetta against Daenerys and was out to assassinate her character?

The underlying point of the show has always been that rulers, no matter how supposedly just, dont care one iota about the innocent when it serves their purposes to slaughter them. How they got there with Dany is way too rushed in a short season, but that's who she's been all along.

[LongDistanceClara]

I was disappointed. 

I rewatched season 1, the parts with Dany and Drogo and saw how much she went through, the losses she endured. Later she would have success and failures on her way to learning to be a good ruler. I do remember one thing is that she didn't like to kill innocent people. Suddenly, she's burning everyone in Kings Landing. 

I feel like the mad queen arch has been very forced and out of character. Also it was rather abrupt how everyone started to turn on her.

I feel robbed that there was now showdown between her and Cersei. Even something like her flying up to the balcony Cersei and having Drogon flambe her would have been more satisfying than dying in the arms of the man she loves, so cliche!

Cleganebowl would have been better without the constant cuts.

I suppose I'll watch the last episode but at this point it's more of a hate watch.

[terrymct]

23 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

Game of Thrones is spending its last hours ruining Daenerys Targaryen

I think reading this would benefit everyone at this point.

"While she has certainly let her anger get the better of her at times..."

The author of that article is doing the same thing many other people are doing:  ignoring the signs all through Dany's ascent that pointed to her being capable of killing in a rage.

[RealReality]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If Varys wanted to rally support for someone else, he should have fled Dany's camp and declared for Jon or whomever.  

Trying to poison her was way beyond the pale.   

Varys supported Dany until he heard that Jon (who was weaker and he thought he could control) could be on the throne instead.   He was looking out for himself, not "the realm".  The idiot writers made him "right", but he had no new information to make him think Dany was a Mad Queen, as opposed to the great ruler he claimed to believe she would be shortly before.

a) Jon is right there, so it would be hard to "flee" and then convince him of anything

b) if he wanted jon to take the throne he would have to kill Dany, Jon wouldn't take it from Dany.

c) wanting a leader who will listen to their advisors isn't wanting a "weak" leader it's wanting someone reasonable and decent.  It's scary to think that paying heed to your advisors is a sign of weakness.

d) I think varys saw what happened to the tarlys and heard Dany talk about burning the city down even after varys and Tyrion tried talking her out of it.  So he had some idea things were going sideways with Dany.

Edited May 13, 2019 by RealReality

[Chaos Theory]

I know I am in the minority but I am glad no one got to kill Cersei.  The show has always been too messy for such a clean ending.  

Plus I was a sucker for her reunion with Jamie.  Their scenes should never have worked.  But they did.

[kelseykixx]

4 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Tyrion was supposed to be the smartest guy on the show, and yet virtually every single piece of advice that he gave to Dany was bad, and resulted in failure.  How do you explain that, except that the show had a vendetta against Daenerys and was out to assassinate her character?

They really bungled Tyrion's character the past two seasons. It's gotten to the point where I'm ANNOYED when he's on screen because I know he's going to make some stupid, ill-informed decision. Which is sad because his scenes always used to be the most interesting and exciting. I'm just so sick of watching him mope around offering up terrible suggestions then being aghast at Dany when things obviously go awry. Maybe she wouldn't have gone mad if her advisers weren't such traitorous assholes.

[terrymct]

8 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Tyrion was supposed to be the smartest guy on the show, and yet virtually every single piece of advice that he gave to Dany was bad, and resulted in failure.  How do you explain that, except that the show had a vendetta against Daenerys and was out to assassinate her character?

His advice is bad when it's related to his family.  He maintained faith that there was goodness in both Cersei and Jaime right up until the end.   Cersei knew that and used it.

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, kelseykixx said:

They really bungled Tyrion's character the past two seasons. It's gotten to the point where I'm ANNOYED when he's on screen because I know he's going to make some stupid, ill-informed decision. Which is sad because his scenes always used to be the most interesting and exciting. I'm just so sick of watching him mope around offering up terrible suggestions then being aghast at Dany when things obviously go awry. Maybe she wouldn't have gone mad if her advisers weren't such traitorous assholes.

I miss the Tyrion who rooted out the backstabbers in the court and relegated Pycelle to the black cells as a result, the one who blackmailed his cousin. It's like a completely different person. But I totally agree: I can't remember the last piece of good counsel he gave to Danerys. 

[sumiregusa]

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I've read this, but it is one sided argument that ignore the arguments that Dany has ignoired her advisors, burned people, etc. The thing is that neither is exactly wrong or right, but that Dany had agency and when she had to make the most important choice, she burned a citty of one million people.

Not to cut you off at the knees but...you are kind of missing the point. It doesn't seem like a one-side argument to me, it seems like someone presenting the facts as the show presented them to the audience. The same writers who wrote this episode wrote all the episodes before. They're introducing plot points in the 11th hour that are contradictory to their own story. It's bad writing, period.

Now whether or not you have agreed with every choice Dany has made over the course of the entire show is definitely another discussion. The only "arguments" I have seen repeated are about the Tarlys. She listened to her advisor (Tyrion) asking her to allow Randall to take the Black. She hesitated, turned to him, and gave him the chance to accept. He denied the offer. He was a traitor and he was executed for it. Dickon stood with his father due to his own stupidity. That is what happened. Burnniinnng someone aliiiive oh my goooshhhh well no one seems to mind when it happens to bad guys so why is this different?

I'm not a Dany apologist. I don't have a problem with setting her up to be "The Mad Queen" if that's really what they want. But guess what? They did more telling than showing, they used other characters reaching outside their normal faculties to prop up bad plot devices. It wasn't done well at all. That's exactly what the article says.