S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

You can always unbend the knee, especially when it turns out you're King of the World.

But Jon has no desire to unbend the knee or take the Iron Throne.  It is the devious eunuch, dwarf and Joffrey's beloved Sansa who want him to break his oath and take a throne he does not want.   

I find it funny that the corrupt cowards who ran KL in the past should get to decide who rules.  Why do Varys, who betrays people like it is nothing and Tyrion, who was a debauched drunk and now a totally incompetent Hand of the Queen get to decide what is best for the people of Westeros?   

And why is Varys good for "the realm"?  Westeros sucked when he served King Areys, King Robert, and King Joffrey.   Is being a key member of 3 disastrous administrations supposed to look good on his resume?  

If Jon wants the throne, let him claim it and, if necessary, fight for it.  Of course, if he took the throne, Varys, Tyrion and Sansa would also stab him in the back as soon as they convinced themselves it was "right".  

Besides, that, they all have a much bigger and more immediate problem, right now.  Cersei.  Couldn't they defeat her first and then quarrel over who replaces her?

I really hate how they are turning Tyrion into a backstabber.  Daenerys has been nothing but good to him  She took him into her inner circle and made him her Hand, despite him being from the family of her worst enemy.  She also forgave him all his many blunders as hand.  In return, he shows zero loyalty and schemes with Varys and Sansa behind her back.  Varys is just being Varys and Sansa is just being Sansa, but Tyrion has sunk to his lowest level. 

[terrymct]

16 hours ago, Love said:

I can truly see Jon, when all is said & done, going North & hanging with the Wildlings & Ghost.  I think he foreshadowed it when he told Tormund that Ghost belongs in the north, not the south.  Thinking about the dire wolf/Stark connection.

I think the dire wolves are supposed to be symbols of the various Stark kids' relationship to their childhood and the North.   Jon up to this point has kept his connections strong via the Black Watch and his closeness with the Wildlings.  In heading south with Dany and his new links to the throne, he's consciously left his northern ways in the north.  Thus, the dire wolf stays.  Tormond takes care of the dire wolf because Jon is still loved and respected.

What happened to the other dire wolves?   Arya's is running wild and killing at will.  Yep.  Sansa's was destroyed for no reason, as she was in many ways.   Rob's was killed along side him.   The Umbers and Boltons sacrifice both Shaggy Dog and Rickon.   Summer sacrifices himself to save Bran.  Bran sacrifices his humanity for humanity by becoming the 3 eyed raven.

[Affogato]

28 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Make that six people LOL

I also saw Terminator: Genysis but not in the theaters and it didn't dawn on me until now that Sarah Connor #3 and Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Protector of the Realm, Lady Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, Queen of Meereen, the Unburnt, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons Dragon were the same person LOL

I also missed the Dany connection. I loved the Sarah Connor chronicles and Summer Glau in particular. 

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, Drogo said:

I just came across this and was reminded that Grey Worm is going to fuck. shit. up.

Old boy will probably hightail it to Old Valyria looking for a cache of dragon eggs.

Cersei really effed up killing Missy.  It was so pointless.  She was a very, valuable hostage, but of no real strategic value to Daenerys.   I could see her killing Tyrion out of revenge or to deny Dany her Hand (though she would actually be doing her a favor).   Same goes for Varys.  

Killing Grey Worm would also make sense as he is her top military commander.

But Missandei was basically just Dany's best friend, and Cersei had no real beef with her.  She was also the lover of Dany's best warrior. 

Cersei could have used Missandei as a human shield against dragonfire.  If things went poorly, and she was about to lose KL, she also could have used her as a hostage, to negotiate exile, instead of execution for herself.

But, now Dany and Grey Worm both care more about making Cersei pay than anything else.  

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Sansa's was destroyed for no reason, as she was in many ways.

Isn't Lady's death what woke Bran up from his comatose state? 

Death pays for life and all that S1 jazz?

[stagmania]

11 hours ago, chrisvee said:

Huh. I think he was starting to live his best life with Brienne when Sansa and that scroll reminded him that he’s done loathsome things for which he needs to atone. 

If they wanted to convey this with Jaime, I think we would have seen him look happy after sleeping with Brienne. We didn’t. Instead, we saw him get drunk, awkwardly sleep with her, look conflicted and down after, and then run back to die with Cersei at the first excuse, telling Brienne the truth - that he and Cersei are two of a kind and he belongs with her. 

As a fan of Brienne, I wish this relationship had climaxed with the knighting scene. Instead, she became the final stumbling block on Jaime’s journey back to Cersei, reduced to weeping in the courtyard in her housecoat.

[RealReality]

32 minutes ago, Affogato said:

If it was it would be fairly standard practice. I don’t see the logo, though? It may well be a generic food service cup.

Mistakes like this are not uncommon. Wristwatches, waterbottles. 

On a giant table?  In a scene with two main characters? On a show rightfully obsessed with aesthetics?  In the final, blockbuster season?  In the words of Whitney, show me the receipts.

[Normades]

3 hours ago, BooBear said:

Yet in the same episode I am to believe that women are throwing themselves at the Hound? The HOUND?

I hate to tell you, but there are definitely women who would throw themselves at the Hound!!  I'm one of them!! Plus don't underestimate the excitement of the battle being over and those men fighting so hard.  There are camp groupies for a reason.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Isn't Lady's death what woke Bran up from his comatose state? 

Death pays for life and all that S1 jazz?

They have really misused Ghost terribly since Jon left Castle Black.  Even when they were in the North and beyond the wall, it seemed like Ghost was separated from Jon too much.  If not for Ghost, Jon would never have saved Lord Commander Mormont and gotten Longclaw and probably wouldn't have been elected Lord Commander.   

Also, Lady was destroyed because of Sansa's lies and disloyalty to her family, and her putting her vanity, ambition and "love" for her beloved douchebag Joffrey, ahead of honor and family.  This also led to all her suffering at the hands of Joffrey and Cersei.  If she told the truth, Joffrey would have absolutely refused to marry her, and Ned would have found someone gentle, brave and strong to marry.   

[kokapetl]

Another episode made possible by teleportation. 

[RealReality]

5 minutes ago, stagmania said:

If they wanted to convey this with Jaime, I think we would have seen him look happy after sleeping with Brienne. We didn’t. Instead, we saw him get drunk, awkwardly sleep with her, look conflicted and down after, and then run back to die with Cersei at the first excuse, telling Brienne the truth - that he and Cersei are two of a kind and he belongs with her. 

As a fan of Brienne, I wish this relationship had climaxed with the knighting scene. Instead, she became the final stumbling block on Jaime’s journey back to Cersei, reduced to weeping in the courtyard in her housecoat.

Yeah I hate that image of brienne's too.

I want to see her make big wilding babies with tormund. 

I mean, its cool that Jaime loved her because of her friendship, loyalty and personality.....but brienne's deserves to feel that excitement when a man finds you sexy.....and tormund does.

[Affogato]

20 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I really hate how they are turning Tyrion into a backstabber.  Daenerys has been nothing but good to him  She took him into her inner circle and made him her Hand, despite him being from the family of her worst enemy.  She also forgave him all his many blunders as hand.  In return, he shows zero loyalty and schemes with Varys and Sansa behind her back.  Varys is just being Varys and Sansa is just being Sansa, but Tyrion has sunk to his lowest level. 

Tywin really frakked over his kids. All of them. None can ever be good enough and they were always punished, i think, for being happy in any way, because they weren’t good enough. And for their best impulses. 

This story is as much about the sins/mistakes and virtues of the parents as anything  ned and Robert and Catelyn and Lysa and Tywin and Doran and Jeor a d Lyanna and Rhaegar all stand in the background, though long dead, like gisnt statues in a sept.

[Bryce Lynch]

Ser Jorah and now Missandrei being killed would seem to make Dany much more vulnerable to the scheming by Varys, Tyrion and Sansa.  Those two were her closest confidants and most loyal friends and subjects.  They probably would have sniffed out any plot by the eunuch, the dwarf and Mrs. Lannister-Bolton.   

Now, she has only Grey Worm who she can totally trust, and he is not a palace intrigue type of guy.   

10 minutes ago, Normades said:

I hate to tell you, but there are definitely women who would throw themselves at the Hound!!  I'm one of them!! Plus don't underestimate the excitement of the battle being over and those men fighting so hard.  There are camp groupies for a reason.

But, you'd make him keep his helmet on, right? :)

[GodsBeloved]

44 minutes ago, Drogo said:

I just came across this and was reminded that Grey Worm is going to fuck. shit. up.

Old boy will probably hightail it to Old Valyria looking for a cache of dragon eggs.

Go forth Grey Worm and  

[tv-talk]

31 minutes ago, stagmania said:

As a fan of Brienne, I wish this relationship had climaxed with the knighting scene. Instead, she became the final stumbling block on Jaime’s journey back to Cersei, reduced to weeping in the courtyard in her housecoat.

I'm not a fan of Brienne at all and felt turrible for her right there, also disagree vehemently with the internet rage about the scene showing her to be weak or whatever. Hell no, not a thing negative about her crying like that. At least they finally fully humanized her I suppose...

[UNOSEZ]

32 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But Jon has no desire to unbend the knee or take the Iron Throne.  It is the devious eunuch, dwarf and Joffrey's beloved Sansa who want him to break his oath and take a throne he does not want.   

I find it funny that the corrupt cowards who ran KL in the past should get to decide who rules.  Why do Varys, who betrays people like it is nothing and Tyrion, who was a debauched drunk and now a totally incompetent Hand of the Queen get to decide what is best for the people of Westeros?   

And why is Varys good for "the realm"?  Westeros sucked when he served King Areys, King Robert, and King Joffrey.   Is being a key member of 3 disastrous administrations supposed to look good on his resume?  

If Jon wants the throne, let him claim it and, if necessary, fight for it.  Of course, if he took the throne, Varys, Tyrion and Sansa would also stab him in the back as soon as they convinced themselves it was "right".  

Besides, that, they all have a much bigger and more immediate problem, right now.  Cersei.  Couldn't they defeat her first and then quarrel over who replaces her?

I really hate how they are turning Tyrion into a backstabber.  Daenerys has been nothing but good to him  She took him into her inner circle and made him her Hand, despite him being from the family of her worst enemy.  She also forgave him all his many blunders as hand.  In return, he shows zero loyalty and schemes with Varys and Sansa behind her back.  Varys is just being Varys and Sansa is just being Sansa, but Tyrion has sunk to his lowest level. 

I'm sorry are we watching the same episode... All I saw tyrion do was defend Dany to Sansa who doesn't trust her and Varys who is worried about what her rule may look like...  Advisors always have to be wary of how their rulers are doing... And because tyrion knows Sansa... And knows  may not sit on the info at least not for long..  he has to start thinking about what that means.. Unless you mean that by not mentioning that he and Varys knew he betrayed her... Varys right now is the one on the edge of treason... If he does something that is... And Sansa... Well she's just angry.. Jon was supposed to stay in Winterfell .. But as he left ( because he was really the only one who truly understood what the AOTD threat really was) he was to get her to help.. Not submit the north after they've already claimed independence from the IT... That's why he didn't bend the knee at first.. Then she was still gonna go fight cersei but allowed him to get the dragonglass.. It wasn't until Viserion died that she decided to pause on cersei and fight the more pressing and important battle... And because Jon can't lie.. He wouldn't bend the knee to cersei and instead ( partly because he deemed her worthy.. Partly because he may have been falling in love... And i think  partly because him being KITN and what all that meant hadn't totally sunk in.) He claimed for Dany,  tho if were being real Cersei being a horrible person probably would've assumed he was lying anyway... So when he shows up with with her and its obvious he's in love and Dany is being Dany with her 100 names and her obey or else air about her.. With dragons in tow sending the not particularly subtle message that you ppl who just won independence are now mine.. Sansa bristled.. The north bristled... They still should worked at it more... And Sansa was icy.. But that's how it goes I guess... Sansa has been around ppl with power and really only see them do horrible things.. And Dany is smart enough to see Sansa is never gonna be my subject willingly 

[tv-talk]

50 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Besides, that, they all have a much bigger and more immediate problem, right now.  Cersei.  Couldn't they defeat her first and then quarrel over who replaces her?

I think that's what Varys is about right now actually, trying to save the thousands and upon thousands of innocents in KL from getting torched by an enraged Dany.

51 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I really hate how they are turning Tyrion into a backstabber.

Wasnt Tyrion arguing in favor of Dany tho? I thought the scene ended with Varys basically suggesting he's going to take Dany out and hopes Tyrion chooses the right side.

[lucindabelle]

You know, in war, innocent people die. In World War II, the allies bombed cities, and people died. It was strategic. The dragons are like bombers. Dany got terrible advice being told not to use them because innocent people would die. If it means taking out Hitler, yes, even Berlin.

It doesn’t make her mad to think about using the dragons on Kings Landing.

Using people as human shields is what Hamas does, it’s what saddam hussein did. It sucks but you have to think long term.

i choose to believe that Ghost was sad not because he was being rejected but just sad because it was happening and he’s sad to see Jon go. I choose to believe he and Jon had already talked and snuggled.

i am also choosing to believe that was just a parley not the whole army because if it were it’s pretty obvious dany has lost and should go home.

Drogon IS vulnerable and night would be no better I’m sure they have night shifts for the weapons.

i to loathe the whole Dany is going mad nonsense.

disappointing.

[Dame sans merci]

Just now, tv-talk said:

I'm not a fan of Brienne at all and felt turrible for her right there, also disagree vehemently with the internet rage about the scene showing her to be weak or whatever. Hell no, not a thing negative about her crying like that. At least they finally fully humanized her I suppose...

Yeah. If you look all the way back to their farewell in season 4, you can see her chin wobbling as she struggles to keep herself under control. She doesn't even trust herself to speak.

So it doesn't really surprise me that she'd be REALLY emotional having him leave once they were an actual couple and she thought she was safe to stop being so guarded and embrace happiness.

[DarkRaichu]

It took me about 24 hours to realize my feelings about this episode and the season of GoT so far.  This is a big heap of MEH

For as much build up to fight vs NK, there were just so few speaking characters died because of it as shown in the opening scene.  

I guess the celebration scene was ok, slow but there were a few good scenes like Sansa and the Hound.  The whole Tormund, Jaime, and Brieanne situation was just awkward, in a "we put ourselves in a corner so just f--- & scrap everything" kind of way.  If the writers did not care, why should I ?

Also, I hate this time compression magic / teleportation crap the showrunners imposed on the series.  The last half of the episode really felt like season 7 where the characters just went from plot point to the next plot point just because the director said so.

Everything was just so telegraph.  I couldn't care less when Rheagal got shot or when Missandei's head got chopped off.  Seriously, Euron could shot the smaller dragon with pinpoint accuracy but he missed the bigger dragon when it was closer to him?  Not just him, his entire fleet missed Drogon.  Also, why didn't he shoot the bigger dragon first??? Just a bunch of Dany's PLOT ARMOR BS !  (For the record, I hate the Jon's plot armor too, but he was not wearing it this episode)

Plus Dany just conveniently forgot Cersei had those scorpions? One of those scorpions shot her last season.  Plus, none of Varys little bird warn him about those?  The bad plotting on writers side made me feel that she deserved to lose the battle.

Dany demanded surrender with that puny Unsullied army in front of KL.  That was just bad optic.  Moreover, why did Cersei NOT shoot them with the many scorpions / ballistas on the wall ??  That was so out of character for her.  We were shown just a few minutes prior that the scorpions could hit ships located much farther.   WTF?

I am just meh watching the next 2 episodes to see how the sh*t show ends just for completion.  Too bad since GoT used to be my favorite show

ETA: just to make it completely clear, I am blaming the showrunners and the writers for botching what could have been the greatest final season of a great TV series

Edited May 7, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

I'm not a fan of Brienne at all and felt turrible for her right there, also disagree vehemently with the internet rage about the scene showing her to be weak or whatever. Hell no, not a thing negative about her crying like that. At least they finally fully humanized her I suppose...

I agree.  I think it is more "sexist" to think a woman has to be masculine and unemotional to be strong.     

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Constantinople]

Jon isn't first in line merely because he's Rhaegar's "legitimate son"*** and Rhaegar was the eldest son of the Mad King. It's also because Jon's a man.

When discussing the the line of succession in the Seven Kingdoms, some have used the United Kingdom as a model.  But the UK has different laws and a different line of succession.

Quote

Sansa Stark: What if I only have girls?
Septa Mordane: I wouldn't worry about that.
Sansa Stark: Jeyne Poole's mother had five children, all of them girls.
Septa Mordane: Yes, but it's highly unlikely.
Sansa Stark: But what if?
Septa Mordane: If you only had girls, I suppose the throne would pass to Prince Joffrey's little brother.
Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things, S1 E4

In the UK, if Sansa had only girls by Joffrey, the throne would pass to Joffrey's eldest daughter, not Joffrey's brother (Tommen). But here we're told that it would pass to his brother.

Quote

Loras: Do you know who should be King?
Renly: Be serious.
Loras: I am. My father could be your bank. I've never fought in a war before, but I'd fight for you.
Renly: I'm fourth in line.
The Wolf and the Lion, S1 E5

In the UK, Renly would be sixth

1. Joffrey (monarch's eldest son)
2. Tommen (monarch's second son)
3. Myrcella (monarch's daughter) (Note: Now she'd come before Tommen in the UK, but at the time the show aired, she'd come after)
4. Stannis (monarch's brother)
5. Shireen (monarch's brother's daughter aka niece
6. Renly (monarch's younger brother)

Renly could only be fourth in line in the Seven Kingdoms only if the men in that list all came before the women.

(Note: Credit goes to @Lady S. for pointing this out on another thread somewhere).

If Jon were a woman and Dany a man, Dany would have the superior claim even though Jon was the child of the king's eldest son (this is the same situation as Sansa's hypothetical, with Rhaegar as Joffrey and Dany as Tommen)

It's unclear what would happen if Jon and Dany were both women. Perhaps it would go to Jon as the daughter of the king's oldest son. Perhaps not.

*** Jon is legitimate only if Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna Stark is valid. That marriage is only valid if the annulment of Rheagar and Elia's marriage is valid. But that annulment was granted in secret, and apparently without grounds. I have never heard of such a thing. Nor, given the importance placed on marriage alliances in this show, should it be permitted in the Seen Kingdoms. Secret, groundless annulments undermine aristocratic Westerosi society and put a question mark over the succession to every lordship.

But we appear to be stuck with secret, groundless annulments on the show.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Constantinople

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

As a fan of Brienne, I wish this relationship had climaxed with the knighting scene. Instead, she became the final stumbling block on Jaime’s journey back to Cersei, reduced to weeping in the courtyard in her housecoat.

What outfit would it have been best to weep in? 

Edited May 7, 2019 by ulkis

[tv-talk]

18 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

You know, in war, innocent people die.

Yep and for the winners it's called unavoidable collateral damage and for the losers crimes against humanity.

Varys point, which I can fully respect, is what good would it actually do the people to be incarcerated and then what's left of them ruled in a burnt out shell of a once great city? On what level is rule under Dany going to be better than rule under Cersei? For the vast majority of people in Westeros it will make almost no difference, unless you are the unlucky ones slaughtered in the process of removing Cersei. 

[tv-talk]

20 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

ETA: just to make it completely clear, I am blaming the showrunners and the writers for botching what could have been the greatest final season of a great TV series

Definitely noticeable that once they passed the books suddenly all the characters became dumb and no longer capable of witty lines- most especially notable with Tyrion.

The difference between when the show could rely on Martin's writing vs when it couldnt is really, um, stark.

[Bryce Lynch]

16 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Jon isn't first in line merely because he's Rhaegar's "legitimate son"*** and Rhaegar was the eldest son of the Mad King. It's also because Jon's a man.

When discussing the the line of succession in the Seven Kingdoms, some have used the United Kingdom as a model.  But the UK has different laws and a different line of succession.

In the UK, if Sansa had only girls by Joffrey, the throne would pass to Joffrey's eldest daughter, not Joffrey's brother (Tommen). But here we're told that it would pass to his brother.

In the UK, Renly would be sixth

1. Joffrey (monarch's eldest son)
2. Tommen (monarch's second son)
3. Myrcella (monarch's daughter) (Note: Now she'd come before Tommen in the UK, but at the time the show aired, she'd come after)
4. Stannis (monarch's brother)
5. Shireen (monarch's brother's daughter aka niece
6. Renly (monarch's younger brother)

Renly could only be fourth in line in the Seven Kingdoms only if the men in that list all came before the women.

(Note: Credit goes to @Lady S. for pointing this out on another thread somewhere).

If Jon were a woman and Dany a man, Dany would have the superior claim even though Jon was the child of the king's eldest son.

It's unclear what would happen if Jon and Dany were both women. Perhaps it would go to Jon as the daughter of the king's oldest son. Perhaps not.

*** Jon is legitimate only if Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna Stark is valid. That marriage is only valid if the annulment of Rheagar and Elia's marriage is valid. But that annulment was granted in secret, and apparently without grounds. I have never heard of such a thing. Nor, given the importance placed on marriage alliances in this show, should it be permitted in the Seen Kingdoms. Secret, groundless annulments undermine aristocratic Westerosi society and put a question mark over the succession to every lordship.

But we appear to be stuck with secret, groundless annulments on the show.

Yes, I think you have it right.  I think a woman would only be in line for the throne if there were no men left.   If Myrcella had outlived Tommen, I think she would have been Queen, (if we pretend Cersei's kids were really Robert's) because all of Robert's brothers and sons were dead.   I'm not sure if Shireen had lived, whether she or Myrcella would have been Queen.  

Daenerys was the heir (before Jon/Aegon came along) because all of her father's son's and their sons were dead.  If she had been born before Viserys, he still would have outranked her.  

Another interesting question.  IRL, would the brothers of a King who took the throne by conquest (like Robert), be heirs?   Normally the brothers of a King have a claim but it is based upon being the sons of the last King, not the brothers of the one who just died.  

As for the annulment, it was granted by the High Septon, and is documented.  If he said there were grounds, there were grounds.  It is like the Pope granting an annulment to a Roman Catholic monarch.   

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[paigow]

57 minutes ago, Normades said:

I hate to tell you, but there are definitely women who would throw themselves at the Hound!!  I'm one of them!! Plus don't underestimate the excitement of the battle being over and those men fighting so hard.  There are camp groupies for a reason.

Also, simple math...fewer / less dudes available for hetero females....

[watchTV]

I want to know why Arya said she didn't need allies just before Jon has Bran tell them his true identity. Maybe she doesn't personally. But  it's needed for houses and kingdoms. You need allies in battles. Family is more important to her but then she leaves Sansa and Bran with no plans of returning. 

She also didn't want to know Dany but acknowledges they needed her help. Dany may not be a warrior but she did what she could. She risk her life knowing the NK can thrust  a spear into her dragon. Jon even tried to stop her and warned the NK was coming. Her decision slowed down the wave of wights. Then after she lost so much they won't even give her a chance. They don't trust Jon vouching for her but Jaime who's committed more sins against them is fine. Jaime, the man who killed Dany's father, is given the benefit of the doubt. Dany humbled herself and let Sansa decide. But they won't give her a chance.

If she goes mad queen in the next episode, it's understandable. I don't think she's mad as in crazy but mad as in angry. She lost two dragons (her children), Messandei, Jorah, all Dothrakis, a big chunk of unsullied and her ships. And she tried to reason with Cersei as advised. She may as well talked to a wall. I keep seeing people blaming her for the losses in this episode because they thought she was headed to King's Landing. She was ambushed going home to Dragonstone. Cersei was scheming while they fought the NK.
Speaking of Cersei, why didn't she just kill them all as they stood before her? It was a great opportunity to be rid of her brother, the last dragon, and Dany. We know she's willing to kill her own people. It just seemed so bizarre they would put themselves in a very vulnerable position before Cersei who just ambushed them.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

Ghost got ghosted. 

I wonder if the CGI required to have Ghost interact with a human character is much more expensive than what they showed.  That is the only reason I can think for them not having Jon pet him before they parted.   

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Cersei really effed up killing Missy.  It was so pointless.  She was a very, valuable hostage, but of no real strategic value to Daenerys.   I could see her killing Tyrion out of revenge or to deny Dany her Hand (though she would actually be doing her a favor).   Same goes for Varys.  

Killing Grey Worm would also make sense as he is her top military commander.

But Missandei was basically just Dany's best friend, and Cersei had no real beef with her.  She was also the lover of Dany's best warrior. 

Cersei could have used Missandei as a human shield against dragonfire.  If things went poorly, and she was about to lose KL, she also could have used her as a hostage, to negotiate exile, instead of execution for herself.

But, now Dany and Grey Worm both care more about making Cersei pay than anything else.  

In my heart of hearts.. Cersei knew all of that... What tyrion said actually got thru to her.. But she's not leaving the path she's chosen... As a Mad queen and a vindictictve bastard she knows doing this will ensure carnage.. And either she'll somehow make it thru alive as the victor.. Or damn near everything will be destroyed but as she'll be dead she doesn't care.. 

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, watchTV said:

I want to know why Arya said she didn't need allies just before Jon has Bran tell them his true identity. Maybe she doesn't personally. But  it's needed for houses and kingdoms. You need allies in battles. Family is more important to her but then she leaves Sansa and Bran with no plans of returning. 

She also didn't want to know Dany but acknowledges they needed her help. Dany may not be a warrior but she did what she could. She risk her life knowing the NK can thrust  a spear into her dragon. Jon even tried to stop her and warned the NK was coming. Her decision slowed down the wave of wights. Then after she lost so much they won't even give her a chance. They don't trust Jon vouching for her but Jaime who's committed more sins against them is fine. Jaime, the man who killed Dany's father, is given the benefit of the doubt. Dany humbled herself and let Sansa decide. But they won't give her a chance.

If she goes mad queen in the next episode, it's understandable. I don't think she's mad as in crazy but mad as in angry. She lost two dragons (her children), Messandei, Jorah, all Dothrakis, a big chunk of unsullied and her ships. And she tried to reason with Cersei as advised. She may as well talked to a wall. I keep seeing people blaming her for the losses in this episode because they thought she was headed to King's Landing. She was ambushed going home to Dragonstone. Cersei was scheming while they fought the NK.
Speaking of Cersei, why didn't she just kill them all as they stood before her? It was a great opportunity to be rid of her brother, the last dragon, and Dany. We know she's willing to kill her own people. It just seemed so bizarre they would put themselves in a very vulnerable position before Cersei who just ambushed them.

Good post.  I think Arya admires Daenerys but doesn't know whether she can trust her.  And Dany is most certainly a warrior.  She probably killed more wights directly with Drogon than anyone.  Arya killed the most, indirectly, by killing the NK.

There was really no good reason for Cersei not to open fire.  The probably could have killed Drogon with the scorpions.  I think it is just lazy writing to extend the plot until the final battle.   I guess the best explanation I can come up is that Cersei thinks she playing with her food, and toying with Dany a little before she kills her.  

[ShellsandCheese]

11 hours ago, jojozigs said:

yes but if we are gonna play the game of "whatif" it's Tyrion's fault Dany hasn't already disposed of Cersei via a quick and decisive strike against the REd Keep when she was most vulnerable.

So, ultimately, fuck Tyrion.

I say this even as I belive he'll be the winner in the end.

Seriously. And Dany was going back to Dragonstone. It had already been noted that the Dragons didn’t like the North and weren’t eating as much as they should be. And considering what was going on at Winterfell, I don’t blame Dany for wanting to go back to Dragonstone. If this were a better show, Rhaegal would still be alive because he wouldn’t have been killed by the convenient plot device that was Dany’s people not seeing a friggin Armada waiting to ambush them at Dragonstone.  

[RealReality]

25 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Yep and for the winners it's called unavoidable collateral damage and for the losers crimes against humanity.

Varys point, which I can fully respect, is what good would it actually do the people to be incarcerated and then what's left of them ruled in a burnt out shell of a once great city? On what level is rule under Dany going to be better than rule under Cersei? For the vast majority of people in Westeros it will make almost no difference, unless you are the unlucky ones slaughtered in the process of removing Cersei. 

This.  And I love varys for wanting to advocate for the people even if he ends up burned alive for it.  Maybe Dany has to burn the city to win the war, but it would be nice if she had some moral struggle with the idea.  I didn't see much, I mostly saw that her rightful rage colored her decisions.  

Yes it's true that someone like cersei will gleefully use human Shields and see danys humanity as weakness.  And I also think that cersei knows that she kinda wins if she can show that Dany is just as willing to do ANYTHING to gain the throne

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

In my heart of hearts.. Cersei knew all of that... What tyrion said actually got thru to her.. But she's not leaving the path she's chosen... As a Mad queen and a vindictictve bastard she knows doing this will ensure carnage.. And either she'll somehow make it thru alive as the victor.. Or damn near everything will be destroyed but as she'll be dead she doesn't care.. 

Good point.  That could be Cersei saying there will be no surrender under any terms.  She is going to keep the Iron Throne or die trying.   She is not interested in any life other than Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.   Maybe she even did it to eliminate the option and therefore the temptation of surrendering later.   

"When you play the game of thrones, you  win or you die.  There is no in between."

[DarkRaichu]

23 minutes ago, watchTV said:

Speaking of Cersei, why didn't she just kill them all as they stood before her? It was a great opportunity to be rid of her brother, the last dragon, and Dany. We know she's willing to kill her own people. It just seemed so bizarre they would put themselves in a very vulnerable position before Cersei who just ambushed them.

Lazy writing.  If the writers were consistent with the storyline of eliminating Dany's supporters, this would have been the perfect opportunity to kill the rest of her Unsullied + Greyworm and Cersei to capture Tyrion.  Then Dany would be completely alone with only Drogon left on her side.  

Edited May 7, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Scaeva]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany's claim is not illegitimate, as far as she knew she was the last remaining Targaryen. Her father was dead, her brothers were dead and she thought all her brothers children were dead. That made her claim legitimate. Jon being a Targ doesn't delegitimize her claim it just puts her second in line. Jon when he found told her he doesn't want the thrown. So he can abdicate the crown, once again making her the heir. 

Dany just knows from the way the North treats her that if they found out about Jon they would want him because he's a northerner. So if he truly doesn't want to be King the best way for that to happen is to not tell anyone. Dany should not even have to tell him, he should've known what would happen. But he's Jon Snow and he knows nothing. 

In the end no one person really has a "legitimate" right to rule over a nation and it's people as if they're personal property. The whole concept of rightful claims to thrones is nothing more than fiction peddled by the regime in power, or rival claimants, to shore up support for their cause or regime. 

Jorah had it right in one of the earlier seasons when he told Daenerys, "Forgive me, Khaleesi, but your ancestor Aegon the Conqueror didn't seize six of the kingdoms because they were his right. He had no right to them. He seized them because he could."

Ultimately it does not matter who is next in the line of succession. Claims to thrones are seized or held by military force alone. It's all might makes right.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

23 minutes ago, watchTV said:

Speaking of Cersei, why didn't she just kill them all as they stood before her? It was a great opportunity to be rid of her brother, the last dragon, and Dany. We know she's willing to kill her own people. It just seemed so bizarre they would put themselves in a very vulnerable position before Cersei who just ambushed them.

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

There was really no good reason for Cersei not to open fire.  The probably could have killed Drogon with the scorpions.  I think it is just lazy writing to extend the plot until the final battle.   I guess the best explanation I can come up is that Cersei thinks she playing with her food, and toying with Dany a little before she kills her.  

It was a parley/diplomatic meeting and it’s considered pretty unsporting to murder someone under those circumstances. As weird as it sounds, there are rules about stuff like that even during a war. 

[Constantinople]

55 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Everything was just so telegraph.  I couldn't care less when Rheagal got shot or when Missandei's head got chopped off.  Seriously, Euron could shot the smaller dragon with pinpoint accuracy but he missed the bigger dragon when it was closer to him?  Not just him, his entire fleet missed Drogon.  Also, why didn't he shoot the bigger dragon first??? Just a bunch of Dany's PLOT ARMOR BS !  (For the record, I hate the Jon's plot armor too, but he was not wearing it this episode)

Jon conveniently decided not to ride Rhaegal south because, according to Jon "Rhaegal needs to heal. He doesn't need me weighing him down", even though someone else pointed out, in comparison to a dragon, Jon weighs as much as "two fleas fucking".

So you could argue Jon's decision not to ride Rhaegal south is plot armor

[TaurusRose]

8 hours ago, watchTV said:

Sansa didn't have to tell Jon anything after she specifically told him to wait until they could get more men. He wanted to go with what little they had. He decided that. Whether or not reinforcement came he was going. Why is his decision her fault? Jon puts himself into suicide missions. He stood there ready to be trampled by Bolton's cavalry then got trapped in a circle. He would've died if Knights of the Vale had not shown up. But yeah it's all Sansa's fault that this adult decided to put himself in that situation.

She told him to wait until they could get more men.  Check.   If she was being Team Stark instead of Team Sansa, she was more than obligated to give Jon information.  After all, all of those people who were on the field (some who had no dog in the fight) were there because she wanted to take back their home and save their brother. However, she didn't say when they would get more men or that there was another option on the table.  She kept pertinent information to herself; information that may have changed Jon's decision.  His reason for going to fight when he did was legitimate.  He did not want to get caught out in the open with winter storms crippling them like Stannis did.  Everything that followed doesn't change the fact that by withholding information (the Vale army was nearby and would come when called) Sansa shaped the events.  So, yeah, it's Sansa's fault.  If she wasn't being sneaky and underhanded, she would have given Jon an option that would have certainly changed what happened.

Edited May 7, 2019 by taurusrose

[DarkRaichu]

26 minutes ago, watchTV said:

She was ambushed going home to Dragonstone.

Lol I did not even think that was an ambush.  Because, knowing Euron, if this was an ambush he would have pursued them and eliminated the rest of Dany's crew. Either way it was lazy writing.

2 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It was a parley/diplomatic meeting and it’s considered pretty unsporting to murder someone under those circumstances. As weird as it sounds, there are rules about stuff like that even during a war. 

Yes for your average heads of states.  However, this is Cersei.  She destroyed a building full nobles / possible allies without hesitation.  She would have seen how puny Dany's army was and would have taken the chance to eliminate her.  F--k parley, especially against someone like Dany who was 100% would not bend the knees to her.  Again, lazy writing

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It was a parley/diplomatic meeting and it’s considered pretty unsporting to murder someone under those circumstances. As weird as it sounds, there are rules about stuff like that even during a war. 

Blowing up the Sept of Baelor wasn't all that sporting either.  Neither was the Red Wedding or Jaime threatening to throw Edmure's baby against the walls of Riverrun with a catapult.  

The Lannister's are a lot of things, but sporting is not really one of them.   

[steelyis]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Blowing up the Sept of Baelor wasn't all that sporting either.  Neither was the Red Wedding or Jaime threatening to throw Edmure's baby against the walls of Riverrun with a catapult.  

The Lannister's are a lot of things, but sporting is not really one of them.   

It all depends on what kind of consequences she'd be willing to face if she broke parley and killed Tyrion.

The only consequence I can think of that Cersei might care about is never being able to bring a future enemy to the bargaining table ever again. Even if it's just to buy time, feigning overtures of peace can be a good misdirect/delaying tactic. It worked for her at the summit last season.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, steelyis said:

It all depends on what kind of consequences she'd be willing to face if she broke parley and killed Tyrion.

The only consequence I can think of that Cersei might care about is never being able to bring a future enemy to the bargaining table ever again. Even if it's just to buy time, feigning overtures of peace can be a good misdirect/delaying tactic. It worked for her at the summit last season.

Well, she was less desperate here than she was when shew blew up the Sept.  There was probably no other way for her to get out from under the High Sparrow and his charges against her. 

But, the Lannisters arranged the Red Wedding, so I'm not sure enemies would really trust them to parley anyway.

Maybe she didn't open fire and break the rules of the parley because she didn't think it was necessary.  She seems confident she is going to destroy Daenerys   

[Constantinople]

15 minutes ago, steelyis said:

It all depends on what kind of consequences she'd be willing to face if she broke parley and killed Tyrion.

The only consequence I can think of that Cersei might care about is never being able to bring a future enemy to the bargaining table ever again. Even if it's just to buy time, feigning overtures of peace can be a good misdirect/delaying tactic. It worked for her at the summit last season.

She's also trying to portray herself as good and Daenerys as bad. If Cersei publicly broke the rules of war it would look bad in front of lords and people who support her. Not that Cersei cares about them, but she's seen what the people can do if they riot in King's Landing.

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, Stella said:

Isn't this a curse of the narcissist? I think so. She needs to be extra special and loved. And adored. Bowed down to.

There were/are so many other avenues she could have taken for her quest now. Imagine the incredibly fantastic PR she would be getting for helping the Northerners, Wildings and Vale forces in the defeat of the NK? She could really have worked this to her advantage. And with the Iron Islands & Dorne? She names Gendry Lord of the Stormlands. If she wants to gain the Riverlands she could with tactful diplomacy. But no. She is fearful and scared of a bigger threat. Jon Snow. In her mind anyway.

Jon Snow and his sister/cousin cooking up problems for her claim. So this:

Her arc is tragic in many ways but she is her own undoing.

Which is the very definition of tragedy in literature. The fatal flaw. Which all of main cast have, though each have a different one.

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

 Joffrey would have absolutely refused to marry her, and Ned would have found someone gentle, brave and strong to marry.   

Joffery and Ned (to a lesser extent) didn't have a say in the matter. Political marriages don't get called off just because the spouses don't like each other.

[TV Anonymous]

I just drop in to express my astoundment on Daenarys' confronting Cersei at King's Landing gate. Quite literally, she and what army? She has what, around 2 cohorts of the Unsullieds and a dragon? Meanwhile Cersei has her troops fresh, protected and she has Golden Company reinforcement. Drogon? Look at all the ballistae atop every turret. 

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

*** Jon is legitimate only if Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna Stark is valid. That marriage is only valid if the annulment of Rheagar and Elia's marriage is valid. But that annulment was granted in secret, and apparently without grounds. I have never heard of such a thing. Nor, given the importance placed on marriage alliances in this show, should it be permitted in the Seen Kingdoms. Secret, groundless annulments undermine aristocratic Westerosi society and put a question mark over the succession to every lordship.

But we appear to be stuck with secret, groundless annulments on the show.

Happy Henry Tudor to you. 

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

Joffery and Ned (to a lesser extent) didn't have a say in the matter. Political marriages don't get called off just because the spouses don't like each other.

Technically, Joffrey might not have a say.  But, I think he would have kicked and screamed until his mother and stepdad found him a new bride.    

[enoughcats]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Cersei really effed up killing Missy.  It was so pointless.  She was a very, valuable hostage, but of no real strategic value to Daenerys. 

There was lots of hostage taking in GoT.  Much more than in Europe (when royal houses exchanged children as hostages, but not to be threatened with death.)  Did any hostage taking in GoT ever work the way it was planned?