S08.E03: The Long Night

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, Growsonwalls said:

It's a cop out. But it's a dramatic device I think the writers wanted to use to show that only sheer grit and courage can defeat the NK. I am not saying Dany was not courageous -- she was. But having the NK vanquished by dragon fire would have been too cinematic and easy. Having the tiny Arya plunge the knife just made for a dramatically more thrilling ending, 

Good points. It’s just annoying. I’d rather Dany just not get the opportunity to roast him at all then have it be ineffective because it goes against the mythology somehow you know? They did a pretty decent job anyway making the Dragons less powerful with the weather and Ice Viserion fighting them and the dark that making the NK immune to fire was overkill.  

[Kate47]

A small moment I loved: when Arya sends Sansa to the crypts (with a beautiful bit of sisterly bonding), Sansa protests that she wants to help protect her people. When she arrives in the crypts, you can see the tears in her eyes as she takes her place with the most valued. 

It was a great little scene of recognition for her that even though she can politically maneuver, she's not in any way a warrior, and even though there should be no shame in that it's still difficult to face. I would have liked her to give some words of encouragement to the people around her, but I still appreciated the scenes with Tyrion and her ability to understand her own strengths.

Edited to add: it reminds me of Cat reminiscing that all her life she's waited for her men to come home. All Sansa could do was sit and wait and hope as her family and home are under seige, and sometimes that's the most brave thing to be done.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Kate47
Moar thoughts

[Sakura12]

The Night King was made by having a dragon glass dagger pressed into his chest, I'm thinking the  Valyerian Steel dagger destroyed that dagger and that's what killed him. The fire didn't even bother him so it couldn't destroy the dagger. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Sakura12

[voiceover]

After musing on it, I believe the only way the NK *could be killed was to work backwards from the curse.  "He was made by magic, so he must by magic perish."

Sam didn't need to turn into a "badass warrior", but even some ridiculous flailing about with a sword would've been an improvement.  That moment where Edd saves him, only to die right after, reminded me of the horrible scene in Saving Private Ryan where a weeping, gibbering Upham can't fire his weapon to try to save Mellish, who's being gutted by the Nazi -- the same guy Upham had ironically insisted upon saving earlier.  Bleahhhh.

Even though I think I saw that ep, I don't recall why Littlefinger gave the Cat's Paw (catspaw?) dagger to Bran.  Can someone remind me -- what was the reason he told Bran, and what was the *real reason (if different)?

[Happy Harpy]

12 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So anyone else think that Dragon fire not  working on the NK is a cop out? How is it possible that Valyerian Steel, which is forged from Dragonfire, works to kill him, and Dragonglass made him.....but the actual purest source has no effect? 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m genuinely asking because it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

From the Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Quote

Valyrian steel was invented in Valyria, and was used to make weapons and various other items of unparalleled quality. Magic and spells play a role in its forging, which makes the steel special and gives it magical characteristics.

Valyrian steel is something else entirely. So no, it wasn't a cop-out. Gendry reminded the audience of what Catspaw was made in 8x01, I don't think it was a coincidence.

I'm tired of TV shows killing off characters jut for shock value, in order to show off how "edgy" they are, or just because they're out of ideas. It isn't edgy, it isn't keeewl, it's the worst cliché (50 characters or so dying every May sweeps on broadcast). It's beyond annoying and juvenile by now. "Tragedy" isn't synonymous with "good" at all, and I'd take twenty "happy" endings like this one over meaningless slaughters.

The named characters who died in all went like a boss, had their moments (except for poor Edd) and their deaths mattered. Moreover, two of those characters were veterans, there since S1, and had their own storylines. They weren't mere red shirts. If there had been "bigger" deaths, they would have become an afterthought.

I feared a Red Wedding but with characters I cared about. I thought it'd ruin the show for me. I'm extremely happy and satisfied that it wasn't the case.

[WatchrTina]

1 minute ago, Kate47 said:

I would have liked her to give some words of encouragement to the people around her

Some people have commented how Sansa's behavior in the crypt is so very different from how she behaved during the Battle of the Blackwater.  I have a speculation.  The religion of the Seven seems to be much more demonstrative than that of the Old Gods.  Sansa wanted to fit in in Kings Landing (and of course she did know the Seven because her mother followed that faith) so during the Battle of the Blackwater she joined hands and prayed aloud to the Seven with the other young women because that was the "right" thing to do.  Even Cersei comments on how "perfect" Sansa's behavior is.

But in THIS episode she is with Northerners and they keep to the old gods.  They pray in front of a weirwood tree and I think they pray silently.  I suspect that Sansa offering to lead the group in prayer would have been completely at odds with cultural norms. Furthermore she is the Lady of Winterfell and she needs to look strong.  For her to pray aloud, asking to be kept safe while hiding from the battle might be viewed as weakness by Northerners.  I suppose she could have led them in prayers for the fighting men but, again, I suspect that's not how they roll.

One talent Sansa DOES have is she knows how the Lady of Winterfell should behave in front of a crowd.  That being the case, I suspect Sansa being silent and stoic in the crypts (before, you know, all hell broke loose) was probably exactly what the people of Winterfell expected of their Lady.

[Hanahope]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

This article encapsulates the problems I had with the episode pretty well:

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/cersei-lannister-is-smarter-than-all-these-morons-1834386681

I suspect we'll be hearing GRRM's carefully modulated disapproval of the show's last season over the next few months.

Well GRRM has a solution to that.  Write the damn books.  I dgaf what he thinks of the show now.

As for the article, can you imagine how huge the undead army would have been had it won at Winterfell and killed its way south?  The battle against Cersie would have been half as long as everyone died in the massive swarm.

she is only considered ‘smart’ because Arya was a badass and saved everyone still alive. The North was losing big time until she was able to sneak up in the Night King and kill him in the only place and only way he could be killed.

33 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So anyone else think that Dragon fire not  working on the NK is a cop out? How is it possible that Valyerian Steel, which is forged from Dragonfire, works to kill him, and Dragonglass made him.....but the actual purest source has no effect? 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m genuinely asking because it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

Nope, she had to use Valerian steel to break his dragon glass heart.

GOT had no “surprise “ deaths of “main characters “ that weren’t previously written by GRRM, other than maybe Rickon (if you consider him “main”).  

[Kate47]

9 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Some people have commented how Sansa's behavior in the crypt is so very different from how she behaved during the Battle of the Blackwater.  I have a speculation.  The religion of the Seven seems to be much more demonstrative than that of the Old Gods.  Sansa wanted to fit in in Kings Landing (and of course she did know the Seven because her mother followed that faith) so during the Battle of the Blackwater she joined hands and prayed aloud to the Seven with the other young women because that was the "right" thing to do.  Even Cersei comments on how "perfect" Sansa's behavior is.

But in THIS episode she is with Northerners and they keep to the old gods.  They pray in front of a weirwood tree and I think they pray silently.  I suspect that Sansa offering to lead the group in prayer would have been completely at odds with cultural norms. Furthermore she is the Lady of Winterfell and she needs to look strong.  For her to pray aloud, asking to be kept safe while hiding from the battle might be viewed as weakness by Northerners.  I suppose she could have led them in prayers for the fighting men but, again, I suspect that's not how they roll.

One talent Sansa DOES have is she knows how the Lady of Winterfell should behave in front of a crowd.  That being the case, I suspect Sansa being silent and stoic in the crypts (before, you know, all hell broke loose) was probably exactly what the people of Winterfell expected of their Lady.

I definitely agree, and if pushed to clarify I honestly don't know what I would have liked her to say. A battle update, perhaps, but I don't know how encouraging that would have been either. I suppose I would have wanted her to remind the frightened women and children that they are of the North, and made of steel, and that whatever happens they are together. 

[GraceK]

34 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

From the Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Valyrian steel is something else entirely. So no, it wasn't a cop-out. Gendry reminded the audience of what Catspaw was made in 8x01, I don't think it was a coincidence.

I'm tired of TV shows killing off characters jut for shock value, in order to show off how "edgy" they are, or just because they're out of ideas. It isn't edgy, it isn't keeewl, it's the worst cliché (50 characters or so dying every May sweeps on broadcast). It's beyond annoying and juvenile by now. "Tragedy" isn't synonymous with "good" at all, and I'd take twenty "happy" endings like this one over meaningless slaughters.

The named characters who died in all went like a boss, had their moments (except for poor Edd) and their deaths mattered. Moreover, two of those characters were veterans, there since S1, and had their own storylines. They weren't mere red shirts. If there had been "bigger" deaths, they would have become an afterthought.

I feared a Red Wedding but with characters I cared about. I thought it'd ruin the show for me. I'm extremely happy and satisfied that it wasn't the case.

Thank you so much for that info!

[jcin617]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

The Night King was made by having a dragon glass dagger pressed into his chest, I'm thinking the  Valyerian Steel dagger destroyed that dagger and that's what killed him. The fire didn't even bother him so it couldn't destroy the dagger. 

There was an interview somewhere I just read that said that’s exactly what happened: Arya stabbed the Night King in the heart which is where the piece of dragon glass was that brought him to un-life.   That’s the only place he could be destroyed.

[sistermagpie]

18 hours ago, AshleyN said:

Bran being almost completely useless in the fight against the White Walkers is so weird to me, and makes his entire arc seem pretty pointless in retrospect (which, as someone who actually really likes the fantasy elements of the series, is disappointing). 

I assumed he would give them something crucial in terms of how to defeat the Walkers but his contribution basically amounted to...giving Arya the dagger? And sitting there as bait. At the very least they could have had him do some powerful warging (I always wanted to see him warg a dragon).

But really, I've always gotten the sense that D&D were significantly less interested in the White Walker storyline (and the North in general really) than the Kings Landing politicking and this episode, as much as I enjoyed it, doesn't really dissuade me from that.

But sitting as bait was important. It's what set things up or Arya who actually killed him. Bran was basically just an object--like the book of history they laid out for the Night King to take.

18 hours ago, Miles said:

I have to say, I really didn't like that. I would have loved if we had seen the Night King looking at Bran, him suddenly shattering and revealing that Arya was standing behind him, with the dagger in her hand. That would have shown off her increadible stealthing ability. Jumping at him screaming seems so out of character for her. 

But jumping and screaming at him was the stealth. She knew he'd hear her coming when she screamed. That's also why it's not a mistake when Bran's expression changes when he sees her coming. The stealth was her pretending to be vanquished and dropping the knife only to stick it in exactly the right place. So screaming just supported the act.

[MarySNJ]

5 hours ago, Misplaced said:

My speculation is that A Man 

  Hide contents

Is the commander of the Gold Company.

I hadn't thought of that. You could very well be right. 

[Growsonwalls]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But sitting as bait was important. It's what set things up or Arya who actually killed him. Bran was basically just an object--like the book of history they laid out for the Night King to take.

But jumping and screaming at him was the stealth. She knew he'd hear her coming when she screamed. That's also why it's not a mistake when Bran's expression changes when he sees her coming. The stealth was her pretending to be vanquished and dropping the knife only to stick it in exactly the right place. So screaming just supported the act.

Hmm. I have a slightly different read on the situation. I thought that Arya's terror was genuine. Everything about her in this episode suggested a girl who despite her incredible bravery was also scared shitless. I viewed her stabbing him as her pulling out the last weapon in her fighting toolbox. It was a Hail Mary that worked. 

You can be the baddest, sickest fighter that ever was and yet still feel genuinely terrified. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[paramitch]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

So anyone else think that Dragon fire not  working on the NK is a cop out? How is it possible that Valyerian Steel, which is forged from Dragonfire, works to kill him, and Dragonglass made him.....but the actual purest source has no effect? 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m genuinely asking because it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

No. Because it took more than that -- Valyrian steel precisely where the dragonglass "created him" (the heart) all those centuries ago. Also, if you go to the Wiki, such daggers are described as having a dragonbone hilt, Valyrian steel blade, and (it's implied, in the sketch Sam finds) with dragonglass in the blade itself. So it was a triple threat.

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

The named characters who died in all went like a boss, had their moments (except for poor Edd) and their deaths mattered. Moreover, two of those characters were veterans, there since S1, and had their own storylines. They weren't mere red shirts. If there had been "bigger" deaths, they would have become an afterthought.

I agree. I was very moved by those we lost (especially Theon and Jorah), and overjoyed at those who lived.

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Some people have commented how Sansa's behavior in the crypt is so very different from how she behaved during the Battle of the Blackwater.  I have a speculation.  The religion of the Seven seems to be much more demonstrative than that of the Old Gods.  Sansa wanted to fit in in Kings Landing (and of course she did know the Seven because her mother followed that faith) so during the Battle of the Blackwater she joined hands and prayed aloud to the Seven with the other young women because that was the "right" thing to do.  Even Cersei comments on how "perfect" Sansa's behavior is.

But in THIS episode she is with Northerners and they keep to the old gods.  They pray in front of a weirwood tree and I think they pray silently.  I suspect that Sansa offering to lead the group in prayer would have been completely at odds with cultural norms. Furthermore she is the Lady of Winterfell and she needs to look strong.  For her to pray aloud, asking to be kept safe while hiding from the battle might be viewed as weakness by Northerners.  I suppose she could have led them in prayers for the fighting men but, again, I suspect that's not how they roll.

One talent Sansa DOES have is she knows how the Lady of Winterfell should behave in front of a crowd.  That being the case, I suspect Sansa being silent and stoic in the crypts (before, you know, all hell broke loose) was probably exactly what the people of Winterfell expected of their Lady.

This is eloquently expressed and I think absolutely in-character. For Sansa to be flitting around the crypt trying to raise spirits here would have been ridiculous. This wasn't Blackwater, where she was actually facing potential rescue by a political opponent who would have treated her honorably. She and everyone there is facing almost certain death (and the loss of everyone they love before it happens). I thought it was appropriate that she was able to take a few moments with Tyrion, because he is not a Northerner (and allowed her to show a little fear and regret).

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

Well GRRM has a solution to that.  Write the damn books.  I dgaf what he thinks of the show now. 

This, this, this. I applaud GRRM as the creator of this universe, but I honestly don't care what he thinks of the show. After so many years waiting for him to finish the story, I'm grateful to the show, because it came through for me where the author let me down.

38 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

There was an interview somewhere I just read that said that’s exactly what happened: Arya stabbed the Night King in the heart which is where the piece of dragon glass was that brought him to un-life.   That’s the only place he could be destroyed.

That's my take as well.

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She knew he'd hear her coming when she screamed. That's also why it's not a mistake when Bran's expression changes when he sees her coming. The stealth was her pretending to be vanquished and dropping the knife only to stick it in exactly the right place. So screaming just supported the act.

I agree with this as well -- she needs the NK to think he's stopped her without effort. It was a gorgeous piece of distraction -- she got him to look left, while she stabbed him in the heart right. My favorite part of that entire scene is also how you can see her shift her left hand slightly over to the right so that the blade drops where it needs to (without her ever looking away from him).

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Growsonwalls said:

Hmm. I have a slightly different read on the situation. I thought that Arya's terror was genuine. Everything about her in this episode suggested a girl who despite her incredible bravery was also scared shitless. I viewed her stabbing him as her pulling out the last weapon in her fighting toolbox. It was a Hail Mary that worked. 

Agreed--I didn't mean to say she wasn't actually terrified. I agree she was. But she didn't lose her head the way it appeared she did to the NK. She demonstrated intentional stealth when she dropped/caught the dagger. I honestly believe that that move, with the NK thinking she'd submitted (when she had not) was successful in ways Arya popping up behind someone else in front of him was not. A first surprise in itself wasn't enough.

[TobinAlbers]

The other cool thing about Arya's leaping yell move is that the Night King has to use both hands to stop her - one for the knife at his head and the other to catch her by the throat which leaves her other hand free. Most people would use the free hand to pull at their throat or hit the person to make them free them. Not Arya. She keeps her cool, and weaponizes her free hand.  All he can do is look - and you do see his eyes drop to follow the knife as she drops it into her free hand and stabs him with it.  He was a split second too late realizing what was happening and by then her hand was driving the blade home. Just freaking genius move by Arya.

[Sakura12]

I watched this again on my laptop, wow does it make a difference when I can actually see what was going on, like seeing some of the Dothraki made it back with Jorah, not a lot but some. Or seeing the White Walkers waiting by the forest when Dany and Jon flew over them. And seeing the Dragon fight, Rhaegel took off a piece of Viseryron's jaw and Drogon knocked the Night King off. 

With Arya being able to kill him, the Night King thought it was over and that he won. So Arya attacking him was a surprise as was her knife move. 

[WatchrTina]

I just watched for the 3rd time (in a dark room, wearing headphones) and I saw things I hadn't see before.  The thing that slapped me in the face is that when the Night King raises the dead and they do the montage of people awakening, they do a close-up on Lyanna  Mormont and Dolorous Ed opening up blue eyes.  They zombified Ed!!!

I also noticed that at least one of the zombies that attacks Ser Jorah when he is defending Dany is a Dothraki. 

Damn.  Both of those were a punch to the gut.

Some people have ragged on Sam for being useless.  What *I* noticed this time around is that while Sam is doing his best in the fight (which, okay is not saying much) Sandor Clegane is cowering in a doorway refusing to fight because of the flames.  Beric Dondarian's exhortations to him fall on deaf ears until they see Arya in trouble. Then Sandor pulls it together.  Sam, on the other hand, freaks out after Ed helps him, killing the zombie that was on top of Sam with a knife inches from Sam's eye -- and then Ed gets stabbed through the the back of his head for his trouble.  But Sam WAS fighting before that.  And he had to have kept fightings to some extent after retreating into the castle or he would have wound up dead. Yeah he finally collapses in tears but everybody else is on the verge of collapse at that point too.  So why does Sam's fear attract so much hate on these boards while we forgive Sandor for his cowering in a corner?  Sam could have gone into the crypt with Varys and Tyrion but he chose to go outside the gate and stand with his brothers of the Night's Watch.  Sam's a hero.  He did his best and that's all anyone can ask.

I also noticed that Sansa pulls her knife just before Tyrion kisses her hand.  I now think that they were agreeing, non-verbally, to go out and fight the Stark zombies together.  They DO come out from their hiding place after that but thankfully the battle ends before Sansa has to try hand-to-hand combat in a long gown.

I also have a speculation about Bran.  I think the reason he goes into the white-eye zone while waiting in the gods wood is that doing so makes the connection between him and the Night King that much stronger.  He knows he has to get the Night King to that place so he amps up the volume to 11 by going into the matrix and buzzing the Night King with his crows and whatnot.  I know it's a bit of a fan-wank but I think there is a good reason why Bran was doing the white-eye thing and I presume it was all to draw the Night King in to the trap.

Edited May 2, 2019 by WatchrTina

[tv-talk]

On 4/28/2019 at 10:44 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

I think that Arya is a Mary Sue in a lot of ways and I kind felt that the Night King himself should have been a bit harder to kill. 

If Arya is a Mary Sue, what is Jon walking thru 10,000 undead unscathed?

[WatchrTina]

25 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

If Arya is a Mary Sue,what is Jon walking thru 10,000 undead unscathed?

Jon was doomed until Dany and her dragon laid a fire-storm down on the mob of undead that Jon was fighting.  Jon wasn't a Mary Sue so much as a damsel in distress and a prince(ss) flew to his rescue.

Now if you question how he managed to keep from being burnt in that moment  . . . well let's chalk that up to Targaryan blood.

[FemmyV]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But jumping and screaming at him was the stealth. She knew he'd hear her coming when she screamed. That's also why it's not a mistake when Bran's expression changes when he sees her coming. The stealth was her pretending to be vanquished and dropping the knife only to stick it in exactly the right place. So screaming just supported the act.

At the time Arya made herself known with the scream, NK was pulling for his sword, leaving his frontal space open.

By getting his attention in that way, at that moment, he had to fully expose himself to her, to get his hands on her.

Had she quietly jumped onto his back, not only would she have had more work to get to his vulnerable spot, but it would also have given his lieutenants a good reason to fire their spears at her. Instead, they were left to see he had her handled very well on his own.

[voiceover]

I just noticed that we're all in the "book thread".

I started posting in the Untitled 8/3, where IIRC, there wasn't a separation.

Mods: how'd we get shunted off?

[Constantinople]

9 hours ago, GraceK said:

So anyone else think that Dragon fire not  working on the NK is a cop out? How is it possible that Valyerian Steel, which is forged from Dragonfire, works to kill him, and Dragonglass made him.....but the actual purest source has no effect? 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m genuinely asking because it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

Fire can't kill Daenerys, but I suspect Valyerian steel could

[stagmania]

13 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

The Night King was made by having a dragon glass dagger pressed into his chest, I'm thinking the  Valyerian Steel dagger destroyed that dagger and that's what killed him. The fire didn't even bother him so it couldn't destroy the dagger. 

11 hours ago, jcin617 said:

There was an interview somewhere I just read that said that’s exactly what happened: Arya stabbed the Night King in the heart which is where the piece of dragon glass was that brought him to un-life.   That’s the only place he could be destroyed.

This is what they were going for, but they didn't do the work to set it up at all. Arya doesn't know how the Night King was created and the team had no idea how to kill him - so she just happened to get lucky in her Hail Mary attempt by stabbing him in exactly the right place with exactly the right weapon. Then the audience had to google for interviews and Wikis afterward to make sense of it. Extremely unsatisfying, IMO.

12 hours ago, Kate47 said:

I definitely agree, and if pushed to clarify I honestly don't know what I would have liked her to say. A battle update, perhaps, but I don't know how encouraging that would have been either. I suppose I would have wanted her to remind the frightened women and children that they are of the North, and made of steel, and that whatever happens they are together. 

Agree with your take on Sansa heading down to the crypts. I would have liked to see her saying something to her people here, too, rather than just snarking at Tyrion and offending Missandei. But for me the real disappointment was her running and hiding when the dead burst into the crypt, leaving them to die and not even attempting to make use of the weapon Arya gave her. At the end it looked like she might finally do something, but that went nowhere. For all her distrust and dislike of Dany, who was the one of the two of them who stood and fought for the North? She didn't need to become a warrior all of a sudden, but some attempt to protect anyone would have been nice.

7 hours ago, tv-talk said:

If Arya is a Mary Sue, what is Jon walking thru 10,000 undead unscathed?

Arya is not remotely a Mary Sue, and it's honestly enraging that people are claiming she is. We have watched Arya train to become an assassin for 8 seasons! We have watched her suffer, survive tragedy, grow cold and hard, lose touch with her humanity, slaughter dozens, and then finally reconnect with her life and start to find her way back. Now we see her putting her hard won skills to use to save her brother and her home. There's a lot I didn't like about this episode, but Arya completing her flawed, complicated hero's journey in this way makes perfect sense.

[QuinnM]

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

Arya is not remotely a Mary Sue, and it's honestly enraging that people are claiming she is. We have watched Arya train to become an assassin for 8 seasons! We have watched her suffer, survive tragedy, grow cold and hard, lose touch with her humanity, slaughter dozens, and then finally reconnect with her life and start to find her way back. Now we see her putting her hard won skills to use to save her brother and her home. There's a lot I didn't like about this episode, but Arya completing her flawed, complicated hero's journey in this way makes perfect sense.

Arya spent 7 seasons working to protect and avenge the family.  Jon spent 7 seasons working to stop the NK.  Either killing the NK works.  But Arya killing the NK works for the entire arc of the Starks.  And maybe that’s why people don’t like it.  But time and again we’ve been told that GoT is about more than just the NK.  So it’s the right person to end it.

We started this season with Arya reminding Jon that it’s family.  We ended last season with Sansa and Arya reminding us that the pack survives.  So we have half a season left and it’s about that now. 

[Haleth]

Just wanted to add my appreciation for how hard Maisie trained for her scenes.  If you haven't watched the behind the scenes video you should.  She worked her butt off and did almost all her own stunts.

[Sakura12]

I think if they explained again how the NK was made again it would've ruined the shock of Ayra killing him. She's an assassin she aimed for the heart. The number one rule to take down anyone is aim for biggest center of mass, the chest. Yes a head shot is cooler but harder to accomplish. 

She also grew up in the North maybe the stories of how the Night King was made was told at bedtime. 

[jcin617]

34 minutes ago, stagmania said:

This is what they were going for, but they didn't do the work to set it up at all. Arya doesn't know how the Night King was created and the team had no idea how to kill him - so she just happened to get lucky in her Hail Mary attempt by stabbing him in exactly the right place with exactly the right weapon. Then the audience had to google for interviews and Wikis afterward to make sense of it. Extremely unsatisfying, IMO.

Well, they did some ground work... we know how the Night King was created, the team assumed the usual methods would kill the Night King, but were proved wrong.   Arya has been in possession of the Valyrian steel dagger for a while now and carries it on her person.   And... she's a trained assassin; even though she didn't know the Night King's heart was his weak point, it's a definite weak point for anyone else she wants to kill, so she might as well stab there.   Even in our world, sometimes the outcome of pivotal moments in history came down to just pure luck.   

[SeanC]

From the “Game Revealed” video (at around the 19 minute mark) it looks like the crypt sequence was planned to be much longer but got cut down to basically nothing.  That would explain the emphasis on, for instance, Sansa being given the dagger that she never does anything with in the finished product.  She and Tyrion were meant to be killing wights, but as edited they dramatically rise from behind the hiding place and then go hunker in another corner.

[benteen]

16 hours ago, screamin said:

This article encapsulates the problems I had with the episode pretty well:

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/cersei-lannister-is-smarter-than-all-these-morons-1834386681

I suspect we'll be hearing GRRM's carefully modulated disapproval of the show's last season over the next few months.

I hate Deadspin but I can't say they're not right here.

GRRM doesn't have the right to complain about this until he actually goes out and finishes the books he's supposedly still writing.

I will say the musical score on this episode was outstanding and should secure the show an Emmy for that alone.

Edited April 30, 2019 by benteen

[tv-talk]

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She knew better, in fact, than the builders of the Wall, the biggest clowns in the history of this fictional world, who built a completely needless 700-foot ice-and-magic edifice spanning an entire continent when they could have just hired a middle-of-the-pack Faceless Man to shoot a dragonglass arrow into the Night King’s butt a thousand years ago and ended the White Walker threat for all time.

This is hilarious and true, Arya is a so-so Faceless assassin, just needed to hire few more and could have saved a lot of trouble.

[darkestboy]

This episode did not need to be 80 minutes and the scenes were too dark and that came across as a bit of a self indulgent direction choice but other than that, I did actually enjoy the episode.

Lyanna, Jorah, Theon, Edd, Melisandre and Beric all got a variety of interesting and different deaths, though Melisandre's did feel a little anticlimactic. Then again, Davos really did want his revenge.

Arya being the one to kill the Night King was fine by me though I can see why some were disappointed that Jon didn't get the chance.

It'll be interesting to see how Dany handles things now that the main battle is over and done with.

Bran was useless throughout the episode and I'm really glad we got Jaime/Brienne working together along with the Sansa and Tyrion scenes.

The last three episode are going to be intense to watch, 8/10

[benteen]

I think D and D have made a lot of questionable decisions on this show and that was on full display this past episode, with how the threat of the White Walkers played out, deemphasizing Jon's importance and making Cersei the big bad of the show.  At the same time, they've made a lot of good decisions.  They streamlined a lot of books tedious storylines, got the characters together quicker, got the characters together in ways they never would have in the book (some of these characters will probably never meet in the books) and that's been one of the best things about this show.  I love the "road trip fellowship" episode last season for instance.  But I don't think when they've had to go into business on their own or made changes to the books, it's always resulted in the best possible outcome.  If the books had been finished, maybe the focus this season would be entirely different.

But then again, that all comes down to George.  George's undisciplined style of writing and his clear lack of interest in finishing his stories has left D and D to their own devices, which I've found to be a mixed bag many times.  George's decision-making can be just as bad, as the last two books have shown.  So I think there can be valid criticism of all three.

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

From the “Game Revealed” video (at around the 19 minute mark) it looks like the crypt sequence was planned to be much longer but got cut down to basically nothing.  That would explain the emphasis on, for instance, Sansa being given the dagger that she never does anything with in the finished product.  She and Tyrion were meant to be killing wights, but as edited they dramatically rise from behind the hiding place and then go hunker in another corner.

This is hugely disappointing. They braced us for feature length episodes - why did they edit them down so much and leave out really compelling, character-defining stuff like this?

[Misplaced]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

I will say the musical score on this episode was outstanding and should secure the show an Emmy for that alone.

I'm pretty sure that last long stretch of music leading to Dead!NK was Variations On a Theme: Light of the Seven, from Season 6 (Sept of Baelor goes boom).  It was extraordinary.  I love the musical parallel to the destruction of generations of families and history ... particularly because the Sept of Baelor destruction music is lyrical and delicate but the actions are completely horrific and born out of Cersei's narcissism, but the Death of the NK music is not at all delicate and somewhat jarring, whereas the actions are born out of self-sacrifice for the larger good.

Eh, I hope that makes sense!

[FemmyV]

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

Arya doesn't know how the Night King was created and the team had no idea how to kill him - so she just happened to get lucky in her Hail Mary attempt by stabbing him in exactly the right place with exactly the right weapon.

You don't know that. D and D have a habit of not showing pertinent discussions that will affect what we see on the screen. Example: we didn't see whatever discussion Bran, Sansa and Arya may have had before killing Littlefinger, and yet, somehow, they all magically arrived at the same resolution.

Bran has had plenty of time, off-screen, to share his vision with Arya on this one. And considering that he gave her "exactly the right weapon," it makes sense they did.

I expect to see not a little exposition in EP04.

[QuinnM]

19 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

I'm pretty sure that last long stretch of music leading to Dead!NK was Variations On a Theme: Light of the Seven, from Season 6 (Sept of Baelor goes boom).  It was extraordinary.  I love the musical parallel to the destruction of generations of families and history ... particularly because the Sept of Baelor destruction music is lyrical and delicate but the actions are completely horrific and born out of Cersei's narcissism, but the Death of the NK music is not at all delicate and somewhat jarring, whereas the actions are born out of self-sacrifice for the larger good.

Now I need to check back to hear that.  I did like the music.  Was it a double base at the end?  I've seen where some think it's too similar to WestWorld but it didn't take my mind there.  The opening credits music always takes me to WestWorld and not Westeros.

[paramitch]

2 hours ago, QuinnM said:

Arya spent 7 seasons working to protect and avenge the family.  Jon spent 7 seasons working to stop the NK.  Either killing the NK works.  But Arya killing the NK works for the entire arc of the Starks.  And maybe that’s why people don’t like it.  But time and again we’ve been told that GoT is about more than just the NK.  So it’s the right person to end it. 

I was delighted Arya took out the Night King. She's spent years visibly training, sweating and sacrificing at almost inhuman levels. Jon doing so would have been okay with me, but honestly? Predictable and unutterably boring.

Besides, I've seen that story. A million million times. As a woman, it's so much more satisfying to me that it wasn't the warrior, the prince, the man, who saved the world, but the small, fierce, superbly trained young girl. The one the Night King didn't see coming. That nobody saw coming. For precisely that reason.

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Just wanted to add my appreciation for how hard Maisie trained for her scenes.  If you haven't watched the behind the scenes video you should.  She worked her butt off and did almost all her own stunts.

I did, and it was amazing! She doesn't always get credit for how beautifully she moves, but Maisie is such a gifted physical actress. I've always loved Arya's fight scenes for that reason.

54 minutes ago, benteen said:

I think D and D have made a lot of questionable decisions on this show and that was on full display this past episode, with how the threat of the White Walkers played out, deemphasizing Jon's importance and making Cersei the big bad of the show.

How have they deemphasized Jon's importance? I'd argue that he's pretty front and center constantly. I can't imagine anyone thinking Jon is not one of the most important characters in the show. But luckily, he's not the only one. He's certainly gotten his share of moments including rising from the dead, discovering he's the rightful king, etc. He just didn't get the killing blow here. And I was so, so thrilled.

21 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

I'm pretty sure that last long stretch of music leading to Dead!NK was Variations On a Theme: Light of the Seven, from Season 6 (Sept of Baelor goes boom).  It was extraordinary.  I love the musical parallel to the destruction of generations of families and history ... particularly because the Sept of Baelor destruction music is lyrical and delicate but the actions are completely horrific and born out of Cersei's narcissism, but the Death of the NK music is not at all delicate and somewhat jarring, whereas the actions are born out of self-sacrifice for the larger good.

Yay! I love that you brought up the music -- I'm a music theory nut (and bad cellist) and I loved the music here. As always, Djawadi really knocked it out of the park. "The Night King" is basically an 8-minute requiem -- I agree with you that it's a meditative companion to "Light of the Seven" (both of which are slowed, minor variations on the main title theme with heavy use of piano). I also agree that it's emotionally similar for a lot of the reasons you mention -- the sheer hugeness of the canvas, the stakes, etc.

I also think there's a lot of delicacy and variation to "The Night King" though, especially across all eight minutes -- there's a lot of back and forth. It's so evocative of "Light of the Seven" for the first few minutes, but around the 3 minute mark it starts this subtle pulse and growing intensity that will ebb and flow for the next 5 minutes into the more drumbeat, driven feel of the original title (just still in this minor key), while the strings and other instruments don't even come in until the 4-minute mark. 

I especially love the instrumentation choice because piano is percussive, and it can be both warm and cold. Here, I feel like Djawadi used it to evoke both ice and magic (and suffering), especially in those little moments with Jon, Sansa & Tyrion, and (most of all) Theon, who gets the melody's literal high point as he watches the Night King arrive and gets absolution from Bran.

And tellingly, once Arya leaps and the Night King dies, there is no more piano for most of the rest of the time -- it's all strings and mournful cellos even as Jorah dies, Drogon curls around Dany, and Melisandre walks out into the snow.

Only in those final seconds as Melisandre begins to die and fall into the snow does the piano come back -- ice and magic again, and then the swelling strings. It's insanely gorgeous.

[SeanC]

14 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Yay! I love that you brought up the music -- I'm a music theory nut (and bad cellist) and I loved the music here. As always, Djawadi really knocked it out of the park. "The Night King" is basically an 8-minute requiem -- I agree with you that it's a meditative companion to "Light of the Seven" (both of which are slowed, minor variations on the main title theme with heavy use of piano). I also agree that it's emotionally similar for a lot of the reasons you mention -- the sheer hugeness of the canvas, the stakes, etc.

I also think there's a lot of delicacy and variation to "The Night King" though, especially across all eight minutes -- there's a lot of back and forth. It's so evocative of "Light of the Seven" for the first few minutes, but around the 3 minute mark it starts this subtle pulse and growing intensity that will ebb and flow for the next 5 minutes into the more drumbeat, driven feel of the original title (just still in this minor key), while the strings and other instruments don't even come in until the 4-minute mark. 

I especially love the instrumentation choice because piano is percussive, and it can be both warm and cold. Here, I feel like Djawadi used it to evoke both ice and magic (and suffering), especially in those little moments with Jon, Sansa & Tyrion, and (most of all) Theon, who gets the melody's literal high point as he watches the Night King arrive and gets absolution from Bran.

And tellingly, once Arya leaps and the Night King dies, there is no more piano for most of the rest of the time -- it's all strings and mournful cellos even as Jorah dies, Drogon curls around Dany, and Melisandre walks out into the snow.

Only in those final seconds as Melisandre begins to die and fall into the snow does the piano come back -- ice and magic again, and then the swelling strings. It's insanely gorgeous.

Within a day of the episode coming out it was announced that a competitive figure skater is going to be using the music for her program for the next competitive season, so it certainly made an immediate impact.

[domina89]

One thing that is bothering me is that it was strongly hinted that Viserion was a white walker because the NK touched him directly, just as he touched Craster's sons.  But when the NK is killed, Viserion does not burst into ice chunks- he falls dead like the rest of the wights.  Confusing...

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, FemmyV said:

You don't know that. D and D have a habit of not showing pertinent discussions that will affect what we see on the screen. Example: we didn't see whatever discussion Bran, Sansa and Arya may have had before killing Littlefinger, and yet, somehow, they all magically arrived at the same resolution.

Bran has had plenty of time, off-screen, to share his vision with Arya on this one. And considering that he gave her "exactly the right weapon," it makes sense they did.

I expect to see not a little exposition in EP04.

That doesn't at all comport with Melisandre being the one to guide her in this episode, and would be an example of terrible writing.

[paramitch]

5 minutes ago, domina89 said:

One thing that is bothering me is that it was strongly hinted that Viserion was a white walker because the NK touched him directly, just as he touched Craster's sons.  But when the NK is killed, Viserion does not burst into ice chunks- he falls dead like the rest of the wights.  Confusing...

That's a good point. Viserion does sort of shatter, though. He doesn't just fall dead, he sort of falls apart like puzzle pieces. I took that to be his "Dragon Walker" status -- that he was partly ice but also he wasn't ALL ice because he hasn't been a Walker (or undead) all that long, comparatively?

[Hanahope]

6 minutes ago, domina89 said:

One thing that is bothering me is that it was strongly hinted that Viserion was a white walker because the NK touched him directly, just as he touched Craster's sons.  But when the NK is killed, Viserion does not burst into ice chunks- he falls dead like the rest of the wights.  Confusing...

My guess:  the NK touched Craster's sons when they were babies, yet we say them as fully grown, long white haired "white walkers".  They didn't actually "die." I presume they didn't "grow up" as white walkers (i.e. they were at one time adolescent white walkers), but they "became" white walkers.  Viserion was already grown, and actually died.  I think the NK having to touch Viscerion was because he took more direct magic, he's big, and he was a dragon.

[jeansheridan]

18 hours ago, GraceK said:

So anyone else think that Dragon fire not  working on the NK is a cop out? How is it possible that Valyerian Steel, which is forged from Dragonfire, works to kill him, and Dragonglass made him.....but the actual purest source has no effect? 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m genuinely asking because it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

Not really. He is magic after all. Fire never seemed to scare him. And I like the idea that Ayra dislodged his dragonglass heart. I mean, beheading him probably would have worked too but she doesn't have that strength. She even admits a regular sword is too heavy for her (Which is a cool admission and wise of her. She knows what works for her skill set and body). 

I do wish the choreography of her sneak attack had been better. I get it needed to be swift. Unlike Oberon she doesn't waste time because she can't. She doesn't have the strength. I would like to know where she leaped from. They have shown time and again that tree is all by itself and not near any walls.

I think Jon is pretty awesome in this battle. Kit ducks and weaves really well. They joke about his size but his smallness serves him well in tight spaces. Clearly he won't win any footraces but he does have 40 lbs of fabric on him.

[iMonrey]

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I also noticed that Sansa pulls her knife just before Tyrion kisses her hand. 

I honestly thought Sansa was about to commit suicide. It felt like a callback to when Cersei was about to poison Tommin at the end of the Blackwater battle and then (presumably) take her own life rather than be captured by Stannis's forces.

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Viserion was already grown, and actually died.  

Good point. I think technically, Viserion was a wight, rather than a White Walker. He was a dead corpse resurrected.  From what I can tell White Walkers are created from living beings.

[Tryangle]

18 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Was Deepwood Motte between the Wall and Winterfell, though?  I need to look at a map of the North.

Isn't DM to the west  of Winterfell? So it's possible the Glovers are still around, whimpering behind their walls after abandoning the Stark cause.

Perhaps Sansa's next move as Lady of Winterfell will be to take away the Glovers' title and land and pass them along to the Greyjoys (Yara).

[jeansheridan]

Since y'all are book readers, based on the books thus far, how would this battle look differently? Would we have three Targaryens on three dragons? Lady Stoneheart protecting her children? More wolves? Is Jaime even alive at this point? It's a bit exciting to imagine different ways to get to the same outcome, Arya taking out the Night King.

[MrsR]

Arya trained with the Hound as well. He told her to strike in the heart for a quick kill.

[paramitch]

2 hours ago, QuinnM said:

Now I need to check back to hear that.  I did like the music.  Was it a double base at the end?  I've seen where some think it's too similar to WestWorld but it didn't take my mind there.  The opening credits music always takes me to WestWorld and not Westeros.

I'm pretty sure he's primarily using celli for the big sweeping string stuff at the end, although he's probably got some bowed double bass in the ensemble mix for a little extra depth. He's definitely using a solo cello for some of the big melodic moments in the last 2 minutes, though.

To me his Westworld stuff is sparser and colder -- Djawadi's GoT stuff always strikes me as being so sweeping and romantic. There's something cynical about the Westworld stuff, right down to the subtle use of modern rock in the player/piano stuff.

22 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Since y'all are book readers, based on the books thus far, how would this battle look differently? Would we have three Targaryens on three dragons? Lady Stoneheart protecting her children? More wolves? Is Jaime even alive at this point? It's a bit exciting to imagine different ways to get to the same outcome, Arya taking out the Night King.

For me, the tragedy of LS is that all she has is hate and vengeance, so I honestly don't think she'd do anything to try to save anyone. I guess she'd try to kill anyone she recognized as being Lannister, Bolton or Frey though, not realizing that ship had already sailed). So for instance she'd probably just try to kill Jaime again. Some more.

It was implied in the last book that LS had either killed Pod or nearly killed him (and Brienne), and had set up Jaime, so who knows what would have happened there. (I'm so glad D&D abandoned LS -- I cannot stand her as a plot device.)

According to Martin, Arya was always going to take out the NK, it's just that in his universe everyone is 4-5 years younger, so she's basically 12 doing so in his mind, not 18 as here.

I think Viserion would still be dead/undead because that was how the Wall had to come down. 

But it's hard for me to answer here because honestly, I think the show is better than the books. I hated so many things about the last two books (Tyrion in the books is incredibly creepy and increasingly irredeemable -- not at all the noble, well-meaning rake he is in the show). I think GRRM is amazing on aspects like plot and character, but he can also be incredibly tone-deaf too.

41 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I honestly thought Sansa was about to commit suicide. It felt like a callback to when Cersei was about to poison Tommin at the end of the Blackwater battle and then (presumably) take her own life rather than be captured by Stannis's forces.

I really thought she was going to kill herself too -- either way, that moment was really moving to me, and very well acted by ST and PD -- she's almost hyperventilating, she's so terrified, and to me both are aware they are about to die. And again -- his kiss to her hand as they look at each other, about to turn and face the wights, was just lovely. I also loved that next edit -- it goes seamlessly from Tyrion rounding the crypt corner to Jon rounding the corner on the run from the dragon.

41 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I do wish the choreography of her sneak attack had been better. I get it needed to be swift. Unlike Oberon she doesn't waste time because she can't. She doesn't have the strength. I would like to know where she leaped from. They have shown time and again that tree is all by itself and not near any walls.

The tree (and Bran) were in front of the NK. What it looked like to me was that the NK and his retinue enter through the silent wights into the godswood, walking in a straight line to Bran (who wants them to do this and may have been purposely drawing them to him by warging). From behind, we see the little breeze pass the White Walker (which in retrospect is Arya sneaking past).

I went back and looked, and you can see trees on both sides, behind the silent wights along the path, and within the entire circle surrounding Bran. There are wights lined up there but raggedly (there are several visible empty spaces in the ranks). For me, this makes it pretty believable that Arya could have sneaked around through the trees, then raced forward into the clearing and leaped at the NK, especially since every single focus in the scene is on Bran and the NK, nothing else.

It actually convinces me further that it was what Bran wanted all along, which is brilliant. The NK walks across that entire clearing alone and over to Bran, giving Arya the perfect space in which to kill the NK while he is so sure of his triumph that he's totally isolated for the first time since Dany tried blasting him with dragonfire.

[QuinnM]

2 minutes ago, paramitch said:

It actually convinces me further that it was what Bran wanted all along, which is brilliant. The NK walks across that entire clearing alone and over to Bran, giving Arya the perfect space in which to kill the NK while he is so sure of his triumph that he's totally isolated for the first time since Dany tried blasting him with dragonfire.

Yes, yes, yes.  Remember at the war planning Jon said that the NK never comes out exposed.  It was Bran that said he'll come for him.  So this makes a lot of sense.