S08.E01: Winterfell

[ulkis]

I question whether Dany would want to marry Jon if his claim were generally known. Even if Jon renounced it and said, Dany is the main ruler here, please defer her, people would probably defer to him anyway.

[Tyro49]

One problem is that Jon showed the wight to cersei, but he didn't show it to his northerners. A lot of them still don't quite believe it - and they're in for a rude awakening.

[dirtypop90]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Point of clarification; They're STARTING Jon in a different direction. As I've said before drama is all about reversals and D&D are damned near clockwork on having characters move from one pole to the other over the season.

If Jon is starting on a bit of the outs with his family and the North while on good terms with Dany, make no mistake, the point of the season will be Jon learning to rely on his family and breaking with Dany (he may have Targ blood, but he's a Northerner in head and heart... he's not going to marry his already horrifically inbred aunt.* Even if he can never prove it to anyone else, that ship was sunk by Sam's reveal and even the music in the parentage reveal scene agreed; it was the Jon/Dany romance theme except in an entirely minor chord vs. the major chords used previously).

Agreed.

I just can't see this ending with Jon turning full Targ,  including marrying his aunt and permanently moving away from Sansa, Arya, and Bran.  Arya can prob protect herself, but I can't see him leaving Sansa and Bran in winterfell or anywhere far from him.  He has an idea of what Sansa's been through.  He can't stand her but he wants to protect her.  Bran is glued to a chair.  I honestly only think Death could separate him from his stark siblings.  So if John doesn't die, I expect him to live where his siblings are.

[Andromeda]

On the supplies/food/tent issue, we haven't been told that the Unsullied aren't prepared for a few weeks' bivouac. They had set up their tents on the field outside Winterfell — no one demanded food from Sansa. (Pretty sure the tents came from the Army itself, not Sansa's household.)

We always see the Unsullied marching just with their summer outfits and weapons (not humping backpacks with sleeping bags and tents), but there has to be some kind of support structure, or its a sad state for an army. And now, suddenly, they have winter gear. It came from somewhere.

My point being that there's no need to assume they are a drain on Sansa's winter stores. I am like Sansa, I would be concerned. But no one said they didn't come prepared, at least for a few weeks. 

Same with the dragons. The livestock probably came with them, because it existed and the dragons ate.

As for the cold looks the Northmen gave the outsiders... You would think they'd be more fascinated than sullen, considering Missandei and Grey Worm are gorgeous! 🙂

[TaurusRose]

On 4/15/2019 at 8:49 AM, Wendy said:

It is only a problem when it is Sansa. 

Lady Mormont was more nasty than Sansa ever was and nobody blinked an eye. Lady Mormont had a point though, now that Jon is not KITN, what is he? Warden, back to bastard? what is his status? 

Arya basically told Jon that he needed to remember that they were also his family, again no big deal. Sansa mentioned realistic and practical things like how to feed the armies and the dragons and suddenly she is an ungrateful and hateful bitch. 

If Daenerys was any kind of queen she would realize how important food is during winter and would not have burned loads of food at the reach. That food could have made it to WF and ease up the food supply situation. Instead she remarks "my dragons eat whatever they want" , I just wish the producers would have showed the scene of the 3 y/o toddler than was burned to crisp by Drogon.  Yes, Dany we know, they eat whatever they want. 

To be fair, whatever that was burned in the loot train fight was intended for KL and Dany’s primary focus (and fight) was with Cersei; she had not decided to aid Jon or the North. And the accident with the child was just that an accident. The dragon was going after the livestock. The doomed child wasn’t 3 y/o and there hasn’t been any evidence of the dragons wantonly hunting and eating people. I appreciate arguments against any of the characters based on the facts presented, but not ones that distort what we know. Regarding the rest of your post, yeah, all of the Northerners were cantankerous and ornery, but Sansa is the leader and sets the tone just like Dany haters expect her to.

[Wendy]

4 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

Howland Reed was at the Tower of Joy with Ned and knows that the baby Lyanna gave birth to was raised by Ned as his illegitimate son.  That's pretty good proof  in a pre-DNA world.

Also add to the fact that is very well known that Arthur Dayne (from the kings guard) was there at the TOJ when he should have been with Rhaegal, why? he most definitely should have been in battle with Rhaegal but he was guarding a tower. This gives credence to the story that he was guarding the child of the future king. Howland Reed is still alive but all the need is to request to the Citadel a copy of the annulment and subsequent marriage of Rhaegal.

That would be if Danny cares to verify any of it. IMO she either will accept it with the facts at hand or she will go in rage and try to throw birth right out the window and claim the throne by right of conquest. One way or another Daenerys wants the throne to herself, she will take Jon and her consort but never as her equal. 

That is why Sam's question is so relevant, you gave up your throne for your people, would she do the same for you? 

The answer to me is a resound , Oh hell no, she won't. 

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

To be fair, whatever that was burned in the loot train fight was intended for KL and Dany’s primary focus (and fight) was with Cersei; she had not decided to aid Jon or the North. And the accident with the child was just that an accident. The dragon was going after the livestock. The doomed child wasn’t 3 y/o and there hasn’t been any evidence of the dragons wantonly hunting and eating people. I appreciate arguments against any of the characters based on the facts presented, but not ones that distort what we know. Regarding the rest of your post, yeah, all of the Northerners were cantankerous and ornery, but Sansa is the leader and sets the tone just like Dany haters expect her to.

I think the idea is that Dany should have seized the loot train and taken the food.  That said, I believe at the time, she was staying at Dragonstone and had not yet decided to to go to WF fight TAOTD.   Honestly, I don't think it was sloppy writing, going for a spectacular scene, rather than the writers intentionally deciding to portray Dany as being a flawed ruler, who wasted all that food.

I agree about the child.  If Drogon actually killed the child, I believe it was an accident.  That said, I always suspected that it might have been a ruse by the Masters to get Dany to chain up her dragons to weaken her.  

[FormerMod-a1]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree about the child.  If Drogon actually killed the child, I believe it was an accident.  That said, I always suspected that it might have been a ruse by the Masters to get Dany to chain up her dragons to weaken her.  

This is where I am with it, too.  It never rang true to me.  Yes, there was a burnt child and a char pit, but something in the way it was revealed seemed like set up to me.  Like they were either trying to malign Dany or manipulate her.

[Traveller519]

Gay of Thrones for Winterfell (Winterfella!) has been posted!

I honestly thought it was a bit subpar. Especially for having Bryan in the chair, who is one of Jonathan's most reliable guests. But I'll chalk it up to the fact that they were off for two years, and the fact that they get this turned around in less than 48 hours to be remarkable.

The "Looks" commentary and montage is particularly well done though. I was hoping Jonathan would be commenting on Bran's creepy popping up all over Winterfell.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Wendy said:

Also add to the fact that is very well known that Arthur Dayne (from the kings guard) was there at the TOJ when he should have been with Rhaegal, why? he most definitely should have been in battle with Rhaegal but he was guarding a tower. This gives credence to the story that he was guarding the child of the future king. Howland Reed is still alive but all the need is to request to the Citadel a copy of the annulment and subsequent marriage of Rhaegal.

That would be if Danny cares to verify any of it. IMO she either will accept it with the facts at hand or she will go in rage and try to throw birth right out the window and claim the throne by right of conquest. One way or another Daenerys wants the throne to herself, she will take Jon and her consort but never as her equal. 

That is why Sam's question is so relevant, you gave up your throne for your people, would she do the same for you? 

The answer to me is a resound , Oh hell no, she won't. 

How Dany reacts remains to be seen.  So much of her belief that the throne belongs to her is based upon birthright (a totally legitimate argument), though she has done a lot of other things, like birth dragons, convince 2 huge armies, plus the Second Sons, to follow her, free hundreds of thousands of slaves, etc, to show her worthiness.

Having grown up with that emphasis on birthright, I tend to think she will respect Jon's.

I could imagine a scenario where she tells Jon he should be King, but Jon wants to keep his ancestry and secret and have her rule as Queen.  

Of course, you never know,  Maybe she will go mad and have Bran, Sam and Howland Reed killed and the Grand Septon's journal destroyed.   

[Lady S.]

Just wanna say in retrospect we all should have known that Umber boy was doomed the moment we met him and learned his name was Ned. Much creepier than the first l'il wight in the pilot, and fitting that Tormund, who killed Smalljon Umber, got to be freaked out by his newly undead son.

[Chris24601]

40 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I honestly only think Death could separate him from his stark siblings.  So if John doesn't die, I expect him to live where his siblings are.

Narratively speaking, Jon’s about the safest character in the series. For all the perceptions of “anyone can die” the early seasons provided the story is actually quite conventional; archetypal even (the perception was mostly a function of the story employing false protagonists in the early portions... Ned was basically the Owen/Beru and Robb the Biggs in Jon/Luke’s story).

Even the false protagonists don’t just die to a random arrow in the middle of the battle. Ned was betrayed and executed after trusting the wrong people and refusing to play politics (and to be the inciting incident for the Starks to have a personal stake in the war). Robb was betrayed and murdered because he followed his heart instead of head and pissed off a bunch of his allies in the process. Rickon died just feet away Jon from an arrow loosed by Ramsey to maximize the dramatic anguish to Jon. Ygrette wasn’t killed by a random strike from a random Night Watchman without Jon even noticing; she was killed right in front of him by an arrow from Ollie.

The point is, this IS a story that follows narrative rules. That means you don’t bring someone back from the dead just to kill them again (the general narrative rule is “you only die once per story”) and you don’t drop the anvil that Jon is the true king and rightful heir without it mattering to the ending.

Further, because he IS the true king, but has been positioned at a distinct disadvantage to the false claimant, then the story has to be how he overcomes those disadvantages.

Also, if this narrative continues as I expect, then GRRM has pulled off quite the narrative feat in that in addition to presenting us the rise of the true hero, he’s also shown us the full path of the rise of the villain as well... and got us to spend a good chunk of the narrative actually rooting for her even as she invaded a country she’d never set foot in with an army of savage pillagers, pirates, troops in black face concealing armor and man-eating dragons just because she started out an underdog and early on set her sights mostly on people who were even worse.

Look past her early seasons as an underdog and look at her as if she was a new character showing up in the Westerosi narrative and you’ll see that Dany IS the cliche of a villainous conqueror, complete with magic powers (fire immunity and having birthed the dragons in the first place) and various deformed advisors (a dwarf and a eunuch).

[CletusMusashi]

I look at it this way: Sansa is Walter Peck, that EPA guy who wanted to ask the Ghostbusters some perfectly valid questions about radiation leakage. And Danaerys is Bill Murray, the charismatic but smug hero who prefers to just give smartass answers. Walter Peck wasn't a villain, but he's still classified as an antagonist because of his opposition to the designated protagonists, because it's a movie about ghostbusters, not about safety inspection standards for ectoplasmic containment units. And GoT, at this point, is a show about dragons and ice zombies, not bickering about how much toilet paper the Dothraki have used up.

[LadyChaos]

8 hours ago, Wendy said:

1) Instead of one raven sent to Sansa letting her know that he bent the knee and nothing else, he could have kept her informed on a weekly/ or even monthly basis so she had news to share with the Northern lords. His lack of communication left them to speculate a lot of things, none of them good. Jon knows how distrustful and prickly his people are. 

2) He could have formed a small retinue (with all the survivors from his WW chase) as soon as they landed in White Harbor and take off to WF. Arrived there a couple of weeks before the army and have enough time to discuss with his siblings and lords everything that happened and why he had to bend the knee in order to defeat the NK. 

3) How about bring the upper body of the WW that they showed Cersei. Dany didn't believe in them because she hasn't seen them, neither did Cersei but here Jon has not shown the North the true nature of this deadly threat, they have to go by his word but sometimes you need more than just words. All the survivors could have talked about it, how it went and how many they saw. 

4) Warned Daenerys about the food situation way ahead of time so as they were riding to WF they could have brought supplies with them. Also let her know not to take it as an offense if they are cold to her because that is who they are with everyone who is an outsider. Maybe then Daenerys would not feel offended or disrespected off the bat and defensive about it. 

1) we don't know that he wasn't. We are given at least two scenes showing communication back and forth.  The showrunners cant be faulted for not showing us EVERY SINGLE RAVEN that goes back and forth between them.  Also, Jon might have thought it not a good idea to send a stream of Ravens when, as we saw, his messages were being monitored.  

2) Jon likely thought splitting up, just to sooth hurts feelings was a waste of time.  This is Jon, he is basically Ned reborn, he's not going to do something just to make people feel better about themselves. 

3)Why would Jon have done that when the North has given no indication that they don't believe him?  It would have been a waste of time and resources.

4) Sansa and all the Northern Lords knew full well that Jon was going south for allies and dragon glass.  Those allies included the possibility of DRAGONS, DOTHROKI, UNSULLIED, and the Mother of Dragons.  THEY KNEW before Jon left it was a possibility of this army joining them.  Jon left her in charge because he believed she was capable of preparing Winterfell for war and for their arrival. So if there isn't enough food, its Sansa's fault not Jon's.

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Janos Slynt didn't choose to become a member of the Night's Watch. He was forced to join.

I swore an oath to House Tyrell - Randyll Tarly

And the Tyrells pledged their allegiance to Daenerys.

After this, he was counters with 'Didn't you also swear an oath to the crown?' One would argue that his oath to the crown, would supersede his oath as bannerman to the Tyrells.

5 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

My issue with all of this is that I don't think Jon is listening to her in private.  He's made it clear he doesn't value her opinion.  And, if he's still holding on to beef from their childhood after all that has happened, says more about him than Sansa.  Sansa was a little girl.  She isn't any more.  

and what has Jon done to show Sansa he is smart?  Nothing.  But she's just suppose to go with the flow.

I don't think Sansa not telling him everything warrants him not listening to her.  Who tells everyone everything?  Not Jon...Not Dany.  Let's see if Jon is going to run and tell Sansa he's a Targ... I think it should be clear to Jon that Sansa is working for the good of her family and her home.  Why wouldn't he trust her?  What does he think she  might be planning?  Does he think she might be trying to rule and lead him to his death?  That's laughable.  I don't think Jon distrusts Sansa.  I think he just doesn't value her opinion, as he's shown multiple times.  By contrast, for all Sansa's fault, I do think she values and respects Jon.  She's at least said good things about him to Brienne, and stood up for him while he was gone, and she's told him she has faith in him and he's a good King. 

1) What has Sansa done to show that he should listen to her?  What advice has she given that was worthwhile?  She used Rickon to bribe him into going to war with Ramsey, then when she realized what he was saying all along, they won't get supporters and there wasn't enough men, she wanted to wait.   Wait for what? Winter was nearly there. The few supporters they had would abandon them if they waited because they had their own people to deal with.  When they fought about the battle, all Sansa did was whine about him not listening to her about how he shouldn't do what Ramsey wanted him to do. He asked what they should do instead and she said 'I don't know, just not what he wants you to do.' HOW IS THAT HELPFUL or SMART? It's not, useless information.  Smart would have been to tell Jon that the Vale army was a day's ride away. THEN he would have waited, because then he would have known there was another option.  Because Jon didn't think there was any other option.  Telling him not to do something, but offering no alternative IS NOT HELPFUL. That is what they teach everyone in problem solving 101.  COMPLAINING ABOUT A PROBLEM, but offering no solution is not helpful so don't bring it up in the first place.

2) What should Jon listen to her? The last he saw her she was a whiny, rotten, spoiled brat that only referred to him as half brother or bastard. I wouldn't have listened to her either.  No to mention, going forward, how has she treated him differently.  Jon asked her to address her concerns with him privately so they could appear as a united front in front of others, and Sansa retorted by calling him Joffery. 

3) Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell.  She is the example others will follow. If she is openly hostile and questions Jon, it undermines his authority, and others will feel free to question his motives and act hostile toward him. 

5 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Jon may not be listening to Sansa, or anyone for that matter, but that's because he knows none of it matters.  Absolutely none of it.  The AOTD is coming and will be there very soon.  They'll be lucky if even a small fraction of the people in the North survive.  It's quite possible everyone will die, he knows this.  None of it matters at all. 

ALL OF THIS!

4 hours ago, screamin said:

If Dany is pregnant, I think Jon's vow NEVER to engender a bastard will take precedence over his worry about the ickiness of marrying one's aunt. I believe in medieval times, marrying one's aunt wasn't that big a deal, in any case.

I think this also....I don't think people will really care all that much about them being related other than the fact that the North may not want a legit Targ as Warden of the North

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

* Seriously, people give Joffrey grief and he's just one generation of inbreeding. Dany is the result of multiple generations of it. Her family tree (family ladder more accurately) is so messed up that not only is she Jon's aunt, she's also his first cousin once removed AND his second cousin once removed. Genetically, they're about on par with full siblings (44% shared DNA).

In fact I remember Cersei telling Tyrion that she remembered people saying that when it came to the Targ's it was a flip of the coin whether or not they would be mad and that she wonder if Joffery's insanity was her and Jaime penance for sleeping together.

One last thing.  Jon was King of the North......what did all of ya'll expect him to do.....

"You want me to bend the knee? I'm sorry your going to have to wait for me to send a raven to the North to ask my sister and the Lord and Ladies of the North if its okay because Im not trusted to do what is right for me people."    

Jon was KotN, he didn't have to ask permission to do a damn thing he did. He did what he absolutely thought was necessary not just to save the North, but all of Westeros. He is not going to stop and waste time, trying to smooth hurt feelings. That is not his nature.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

42 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

The point is, this IS a story that follows narrative rules. That means you don’t bring someone back from the dead just to kill them again (the general narrative rule is “you only die once per story”) 

Tell that Beric Dondarrion. 😉 I know he's not a main character and therefore his death doesn't have as much as an impact as Jon's. But he already died more than once and I'm pretty sure he'll die once more and for the final time.

Aside from that, you can kill off a major character twice, if it serves some narrative Purpose. Depending on how you Interpret the ending of Return of the Kings, Tolkien killed off Gandalf twice. And I can see at least one possible narrative purpose in killing Jon again: Namely when he gives someone the kiss of life and sacrifices himself.

Aside from that: There's IMO no way Dany is the main villain of the story. An antagonist, maybe (and that's a very big maybe for me), but not the main villain. Since you are talking about narrative rules: The main villain does not normally sleep with the hero. Nor do they try to help stopping a zombie Invasion, risking their life and losing one of their children in the process.

Edited April 16, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn

[CletusMusashi]

On 4/15/2019 at 11:47 AM, Penman61 said:

Question: Leaving aside for the moment how Luke and Leia Dany and Jon might personally react to the news that they are aunt and nephew after they've bumped uglies, how might the people react?  I can't tell if the reaction would be disgust that threatens their rule or just dirty jokes that makes them more relatable or...what? 

Well, at least Jaime's in town, to be like "Oh, please. You call that incest?" Right after he says "Hello, Bran. I see winter's here. But I guess the last thing you wanted was another long fall. What? Too soon?"

[CletusMusashi]

20 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

Ok, well then I’ll just have to pretend he doesn’t look like he’s been in his late 20s-early 30s for the last few years. 

His rowboat collided with an iceberg, and she aged a few years before he defrosted.

Edited April 16, 2019 by CletusMusashi

[ulkis]

imo the Sansa and Jon squabbling feels pretty contrived. Is there not enough plot to deal with?

I think a big reason the northerners were giving Dany the side-eye was her perky winter princess fur dress, heh.

Edited April 16, 2019 by ulkis

[Clanstarling]

20 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Then we have the "logistics" complaint.  Seriously? Does Sansa think that this is going to be a long term situation?  The AoTD is on its way; the battle is happening sooner than later.  To me, this comment by Sansa just shows how poor her (and the Northern lords) understanding of the situation they're in really is.

Well, actually, given that Winter has arrived, the food problem is a long term problem, even if they weren't supporting an army. Winter lasts for years, remember. So Sansa's gathering food and supplies isn't just a concern for the battle (war, actually), but for survival beyond that, should they win.

5 hours ago, go4luca said:

Exactly.  But Jon was raised as a Stark, not a Targaryen. 

Yeah, it was a quip, not a prediction of how the story will progress.
 

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

Just wanna say in retrospect we all should have known that Umber boy was doomed the moment we met him and learned his name was Ned. Much creepier than the first l'il wight in the pilot, and fitting that Tormund, who killed Smalljon Umber, got to be freaked out by his newly undead son.

Oh, I did not catch the poor Umber boy's name. Nice. That was a seriously freaky scene, and we've seen plenty so far.

What I love about this show is how all of the primary characters are flawed in both major and minor ways. Not one of them is a perfect choice for King/Queen. They all have their strengths (even Cersei, or at least she used to - though I hate to admit it), but they all have serious weaknesses as well. Which makes them pretty human, and therefore I like it.

[Lady S.]

6 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

Howland Reed was at the Tower of Joy with Ned and knows that the baby Lyanna gave birth to was raised by Ned as his illegitimate son.  That's pretty good proof  in a pre-DNA world.

I'm not really sure we'll see them again, but I'm reminded again how annoyed I'll be if Meera's goodbye to Bran was really her final scene. Not just how unfeeling he was, but she should have value left to the story as one of the few female fighters and the only one to have already killed a WW. 

5 hours ago, Efzee said:

And Cersei would've been like "Randall who?" if Dany had taken them prisoner with the intend to trade them for the woman who killed Cersei's daughter.

Yeah, I just assume they already gave Ellaria up for dead, knowing what she did to Myrcella. Cersei probably got all she needed from the Tarlys once Highgarden was sacked. 

[Smad]

5 hours ago, Efzee said:

Jon was the king, Sansa was his sister. Having council meetings is a courtesey, not a necessity as king. He can do whatever the hell he wants. If he'd run his every decision past Sansa the Northerners would have complained that they'd chosen him, not Sansa, as their monarch.

No, having a council IS a necessity. Every Lord and King we have seen has a council. Whether that's a war council or regular advisors. And you know why? Because one person can't micro manage everything that needs to be done in a castle, much less a Kingdom. Even Lyanna Mormont, ruler of a small island, had her council. Whether she listened to them or not is a different matter. But she had them. Robb and Tywin had war councils. The 7 Kingdoms weren't run by Robert Baratheon, they were run by the small council.

Jon's failure as ruler was not setting up a council to begin with. And then run his decisions by people before announcing them in a public forum. And even in private council, Jon seems to say one thing and then spring the opposite on his 'advisors' in public. He agreed with Sansa and Davos that going South was too dangerous only for then to suddenly announce he was going without telling them. He sprang the Regency on Sansa as if he'd just asked her to take care of his dog while he goes on a little trip. He didn't think to talk to Sansa or Davos about what he had planned about the traitors, opening it up for discussion in public. You don't do that, it's simply bad optics. Especially if what counts as your council or advisors or whatever are the people you need to agree with you in public.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, ulkis said:

I think a big reason the northerners were giving Dany the side-eye was her perky winter princess fur dress, heh.

The Westeros seamstresses have been on their game throughout, but they went all out to make such a pretty, pretty coat for Dany in the North.  Sansa has also been looking very fine in her Winterfell dresses, coats and furs.  There may be wars and murders everywhere, Whitewalkers and dragons, but the seamstresses rule over all!

Edited April 16, 2019 by izabella

[One Tough Cookie]

On 4/15/2019 at 3:38 AM, tennisgurl said:

Nice to see that Davos is still the smartest guy in every room he enters. 

And to this semi old lady he's really easy on the eyes.  

[TaurusRose]

On 4/15/2019 at 10:00 AM, Timetoread said:

 I think too much is made of arguments in front of a large gathering.  That large gathering are the head of the Northern houses.  It's like Congress or Parliament.  It is there that EVERYBODY gets to voice their concerns and make their cases, with the Warden mostly listening and making the final decision. This is how Ned did it and now how Sansa is doing it.

My mother once told me (as a threat, mind you) that two women can't head a household.  The North is Sansa's home.  Winterfell is Sansa's home. Jon is her brother.  I'm sure she was a bit miffed that some narcissistic broad spread her legs and shows up in Winterfell expecting deference.  The one who was wrong was Jon.  He should have introduced Danerys properly to his family and to his people with a explanation and a powerpoint presentation.   Instead he rolls in all post-coital next to her like they just got married or something.  It was a show of strength where what they needed was a show of diplomacy.  Strength works for enemies.  Not for family.  It was annoying - and these are people I like!

Disagree with this but especially the part in bold.

On 4/15/2019 at 11:47 AM, Penman61 said:

Question: Leaving aside for the moment how Luke and Leia Dany and Jon might personally react to the news that they are aunt and nephew after they've bumped uglies, how might the people react?  I can't tell if the reaction would be disgust that threatens their rule or just dirty jokes that makes them more relatable or...what? 

Who cares how they might react? They’ve elevated dull and stupid to an art form.

On 4/15/2019 at 11:59 AM, Timetoread said:

I had another thought.  I think maybe some of the problem is Jon's inability to grasp reality versus what he's used to.   He doesn't want to be a leader because of the position he held in his family.  He still sees Sansa as the nasty little sister who looks down on him and hears her concerns as insults, rather than receiving them as alternative perspective.  His reception of Arya shows me that he will struggle with understanding what she is now and what she's done.  He won't be able to wrap his head around Bran at all.

He seems to register only what HE has been through but not what the others have been through and how it has changed them.  Sansa was not only raped by the evil Bolton bastard, she spent years observing the machinations of KL.  She has a better take on Cersei than Tyrion.  Arya is able to move in and out of situations with stealth and efficiency.  Bran can see everything.

Jon has got to stop thinking of his siblings as who they were before everything went down.

The same thing could be said for the cousins in regard to Jon. Understanding and compromise is a two-way street.

[Popples]

2 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

I look at it this way: Sansa is Walter Peck, that EPA guy who wanted to ask the Ghostbusters some perfectly valid questions about radiation leakage. And Danaerys is Bill Murray, the charismatic but smug hero who prefers to just give smartass answers. Walter Peck wasn't a villain, but he's still classified as an antagonist because of his opposition to the designated protagonists, because it's a movie about ghostbusters, not about safety inspection standards for ectoplasmic containment units. And GoT, at this point, is a show about dragons and ice zombies, not bickering about how much toilet paper the Dothraki have used up.

My tinfoil hat interprets this as you're saying that the dragons must cross their flame-streams to defeat the White Walkers and Viserion is made of marshmallow.

It is known.

[tennisgurl]

I do think that Dany needs to keep in mind that, to many Northerners, the strongest memory they have of the Targaryans is Lyanna Stark being allegedly kidnapped, raped, and murdered by Danys brother, and her father horribly murdering their lord and the next in line to be their lord, and would have probably killed the rest of them too if Ned and Robert didnt rebel and overthrow him. And, his whole deal was burning people alive...just the way that Dany has, and she tends to flex her power with her fire breathing dragons. Its not great optics, and someone really needs to explain that to her. I know that she knows now that her dad was a monster, but has she really dealt with that yet, and considered how that looks to people? Its not like its Danys fault that her dad was a psychopath, but its something she needs to be aware of, especially when she is asking people, especially the Northerners, to trust her 

Edited April 17, 2019 by tennisgurl

[proserpina65]

Late to the party, but here goes:

I enjoyed that.  Not too much filler, other than the commercial for the Dragon Ride at Universal Studios (and I'd totally ride that), some emotional reunions, some humor, and that creepy as fuck scene at Last Hearth.  Let's just say, I had trouble sleeping after that.

[Advance35]

Quote

Jon's failure as ruler was not setting up a council to begin with. And then run his decisions by people before announcing them in a public forum. And even in private council, Jon seems to say one thing and then spring the opposite on his 'advisors' in public. He agreed with Sansa and Davos that going South was too dangerous only for then to suddenly announce he was going without telling them. He sprang the Regency on Sansa as if he'd just asked her to take care of his dog while he goes on a little trip. 

And the thing is, she DID it.  The Lords were getting antsy when he was at Dragonstone as a "guest", not like Sansa warned him he wouldn't be allowed to leave.  She worked to keep peace in Winterfell, kept the Northern Lords and in-residence Vale Nobility placated so that Jon would have forces to come back too, though she hadn't heard from Jon "IN WEEKS."

Then he undoes all her efforts by needlessly giving away his crown.  He cites, titles don't matter, power games don't matter but he couldn't bring himself to fake NOT being on Dany's side when Cersei asked?

If Jon didn't have Sansa sitting at that table in the front hall, well, Lord Royce was very clear, the Vale did not swear allegiance to Jon Snow, they came for Sansa.  He would be down even more men then he already alienated.   Anytime Sansa gets some form of an acceptable picture going, Jon just finger paints all over it and expects Sansa to just adjust.

Even now, Jon took her home, Northern Independence and once again made her answerable to the Iron Throne, something she didn't want since she spent YEARS in Kings Landing being abused.  All that aside, she is still working and placating Lord Royce, keeping the Vale with them, even as Jon drives some of their men away with an unwanted Queen.

He's lucky he has a "talent" for falling upward.

[Drogo]

9 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Jon may not be listening to Sansa, or anyone for that matter, but that's because he knows none of it matters.  Absolutely none of it.  The AOTD is coming and will be there very soon.  They'll be lucky if even a small fraction of the people in the North survive.  It's quite possible everyone will die, he knows this.  None of it matters at all. 

Because this can't be said enough.  

All Jon wants to do is keep these people alive. 

[TaurusRose]

On 4/14/2019 at 10:35 PM, kieyra said:

I think Cersei being boring now is a direct result of the writing being subpar in this season (and the previous one). OG Cersei would have murdered Euron with much better-chosen words.

And wouldn’t have banged him. 

Wow.   One episode and you've already decided the writing is subpar?

[kieyra]

10 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Wow.   One episode and you've already decided the writing is subpar?

No, read my whole post. I mentioned last season also. In which they very nearly had people using modern slang. The writing (specifically dialogue) got noticeably worse, and dumbed down, when they diverged from the books. 

Besides which, there are only six episodes (now five left). Every clunky line of dialogue that goes thud stands out.

(And things like repeating the phrase “bend the knee” a hundred thousand times.)

Edited April 17, 2019 by kieyra

[Rebky]

On 4/14/2019 at 9:05 PM, revbfc said:

“Hey, Bran!  You look well.  No, no, don’t get up.”

Oh no you dident!!! LMAO

Also, there were so many heart felt family reunions with tight hugs and tears. And Bran was all like, "We do not have time for this shit! There is a huge hole in the wall, the dead are heading this way **looks at Dany** and your dragon is totally off his nut!!"  (paraphrased).

Edited April 17, 2019 by Rebky

[BitterApple]

Regarding Dany finding out the news about Jon, I can't see her taking it well. The birthright is a legitimate argument and it would be tough to deny it, but she put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into assembling an Army and traveling to Westeros. To come so close to your goal, only to have it snatched away by your new boyfriend/consort/nephew? Yikes, I think it's gonna get ugly if it comes down to Jon pulling rank.

Edited April 17, 2019 by BitterApple

[Andromeda]

Anyone else expect Qyburn to betray Cersei for the sake of experimentation? Or doing something involving the wights? He was awfully interested in that twitching hand last season during the arena scene, and we know what he did with the Mountain. I could see him trying to make a wight army, or convincing Cersei he could, and getting her killed in the process — and then she comes back, of course. 🙂 She'd make a great Night King's bride.

I feel bad that Dani keeps getting compared to her nutty dad. She'll never be able to lose her temper in the usual way we all do sometimes without someone saying she's "gone crazy" like her father.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Andromeda

[Constantinople]

Arya said Sansa was the smartest person she ever met.

I agree Sansa may not be the smartest person on the show, but considering some of the people Arya hung out with, her statement may be accurate

[millennium]

2 hours ago, kieyra said:

No, read my whole post. I mentioned last season also. In which they very nearly had people using modern slang. The writing (specifically dialogue) got noticeably worse, and dumbed down, when they diverged from the books. 

Besides which, there are only six episodes (now five left). Every clunky line of dialogue that goes thud stands out.

(And things like repeating the phrase “bend the knee” a hundred thousand times.)

I thought the entire episode was sub-par, and with only five episodes left the disappointment is more acute.

Maybe all the hype made expectations unrealistic, or perhaps the episode suffered because it comes on the heels of that unforgettable season seven finale.   That, and there was a lot of housekeeping to be done in the plot.  The end result was a depressing sense that nothing really happened in this episode.   They rubbed a lot of sticks together but no flame.

Euron and Cersei didn't ring true at all to me.   I never questioned her bedding Lancil because he was just so insignificant but with Euron it feels like she has lowered herself to the point of becoming his subordinate.   Obviously she doesn't see it that way, but that's how it felt to me as a viewer, that her agreeing to sleep with him was the result of a weakness, a moment of second-guessing herself, than Machiavellian scheming.  (Admittedly my extreme distaste for the Euron actor may color my impression.)

Sam's reveal to Jon Snow seemed pedestrian and anti-climactic.   The rescue of Yara was so simplistic as to be insulting to the longtime viewers of the show.   The romantic dragon ride felt like sticky-sweet fan service.    Too much reliance on visual gags and one-liners, i.e., Yara head-butting Theon, Sansa on Joffrey's wedding: "It had its moments," etc.   

I finished the first episode of Season 8 feeling like the last episode of Season 7 was the actual series finale.

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, millennium said:

Euron and Cersei didn't ring true at all to me.   I never questioned her bedding Lancil because he was just so insignificant but with Euron it feels like she has lowered herself to the point of becoming his subordinate.   Obviously she doesn't see it that way, but that's how it felt to me as a viewer, that her agreeing to sleep with him was the result of a weakness, a moment of second-guessing herself, than Machiavellian scheming.  (Admittedly my extreme distaste for the Euron actor may color my impression.)

I agree. I get the sense she felt she had too because he’s the last one left. She has the golden company but if Euron leaves that’s all she has. She knows she’s outnumbered and she has NO allies. Jamie is gone. Golden Company is bought... Euron is her last ally left and he can actually go join up with Dany and Jon because they need all hands on deck , so I get a sense of desperation from her. Plus she needs a baby daddy with Jaime gone.

Edited April 17, 2019 by GraceK

[Nanrad]

15 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

My issue with all of this is that I don't think Jon is listening to her in private.  He's made it clear he doesn't value her opinion.  And, if he's still holding on to beef from their childhood after all that has happened, says more about him than Sansa.  Sansa was a little girl.  She isn't any more.  

and what has Jon done to show Sansa he is smart?  Nothing.  But she's just suppose to go with the flow.

I don't think Sansa not telling him everything warrants him not listening to her.  Who tells everyone everything?  Not Jon...Not Dany.  Let's see if Jon is going to run and tell Sansa he's a Targ... I think it should be clear to Jon that Sansa is working for the good of her family and her home.  Why wouldn't he trust her?  What does he think she  might be planning?  Does he think she might be trying to rule and lead him to his death?  That's laughable.  I don't think Jon distrusts Sansa.  I think he just doesn't value her opinion, as he's shown multiple times.  By contrast, for all Sansa's fault, I do think she values and respects Jon.  She's at least said good things about him to Brienne, and stood up for him while he was gone, and she's told him she has faith in him and he's a good King.  She just doesn't agree with him all the time.  If they had a different dynamic, maybe she would stop by his chambers to express her thoughts before or instead of doing it publicly.  But I don't think Jon has created space for her to do so.  I just don't believe if Sansa went to him privately to talk about food supply he would do anything except shoo her away.  So I actually put more responsibility on big brother, ex-KON for their dynamic.  

And she DOES get his attention and that of the northern lords.  Whether Jon listens is another matter.  

Edited to add: with all that said, I get them both. I think their dynamic make sense for them. Sansa spilling her guts to Jon and Jon being all ears to Sansa would be really unrealistic for these characters.  I also just love their scenes. If they were all lovey-dovey “we are a [stark] family,” they would be far less interesting to watch lol 

SANSA
Listen to me. Please listen to me. He wants you to make a mistake.

JON
Of course he does.

(gesturing at map)
What should I do differently?

SANSA
I don’t know. I don’t know anything about battles. Just don’t do what he wants you to do.

JON
(a trifle impatient)

Aye, that’s good advice.

SANSA
You think that’s obvious.

JON
Well, it is a bit obvious.

SANSA
If you had asked my advice earlier, I would have told you not to attack Winterfell until we had a larger force. Or is that obvious too?

JON (increasingly heated)

When will we have a larger force? We pleaded with every house that would have us. The Blackfish can’t have us. We’re lucky to have this many men.

SANSA It’s not enough.

JON
No, it’s not enough. It’s what we have. Battles have been won against greater odds.

===

This is Jon and Sansa talking in private about the upcoming battle of the "Battle of the Bastards." The advice Sansa gives is incredible unhelpful. She is right in the most vaguest ways, but her advice is unproductive. Jon explicitly asks her what he should do and she flat out says, "I don’t know. I don’t know anything about battles. Just don’t do what he wants you to do." How is this not listening to her? She isn't saying anything that Jon understands or anyone who has never seen an episode before that one could catch onto. We're seeing Ramsey from her and our perspective and not Jon's.

Her second piece of advice is obvious, but what does she also do? Doesn't tell Jon that there might be one last army in play. When he flat out asked her when they will have a larger force, she simply says, "It's not enough." Jon is acting how most people would reaction when given vague information in a dire situation. Sansa has literally been unhelpful when she had the opportunity to be of great assistance, which she so eagerly desires. 

I think people actually ignores how Sansa treats Jon in underhanded ways, which contributes to the reason why Jon still sees her as the little girl he grew up with. Furthermore, our past relationship with someone informs our perception of a person and she treated Jon like crap. That's not something immediately swept under the bridge although Jon is clearly trying. Someone noted that if Jon was Robb she'd never pull this same crap with him.

I'm sorry, but who said anything about Sansa telling Jon everything? Sansa is crying about how Jon doesn't listen to her and when he tries to listen to her, she gives vague, unhelpful advice. "Don't do what he wants you to do..." Umm, clearly. "What should I do, Sansa?" Sansa: I don't know, just not that. It isn't that Sansa isn't revealing her deepest, dark secrets, it's that she isn't explaining herself in a way that makes her worth listening to. In private, she wants to wait for someone to ask her opinion, but in public she readily voices her thoughts which undermines Jon. If you didn't know Sansa's backstory, would her advice makes sense to you?

Why wouldn't Jon trust Sansa? For one, she undermines him in public at times. Two, she's always critical of others ideas, but rarely is able to explain how her ideas are useful. Sansa's states that she lived with Ramsey, therefore, knew him that best, yet, couldn't give one solid bit of advice as to how. Complains that Jon didn't ask her input about the war, and then says, "I don't know much about war...just don't do what he wants you to do."

Jon pointed out that Sansa thinks she's smarter than everyone, he never said he was smarter than everyone. Jon continuously fails Sansa because Sansa rarely gives him adequate information, so he won't fail her. If you want someone to do a desired thing, set them up for success.

Jon had her in the battle room, and then allowed her to voice her opinions about what he should do when she raised the issue with him. He had more than created space for her, she chooses not to use it, and then complains when he's not open to suggestions she explains abstractly.

I brought up their old dynamic because you said they should go back to their old dynamic or whatever. I was pointing out that they never had a good dynamic to go back to NOT reflecting on Jon's perception of her.

Attention is referring to listening. He doesn't listen to her because she's not explaining herself well. The North listen to her because they are stuck in their ways and so is she. Not to say that she doesn't make points at times, but clearly things are changing and she and the North needs to get with the times.

I honestly don't need Sansa to spill her guts, I need her to use her words. I need people to stop blaming Jon for not listening to her when Sansa speaks in vague terms and gets upset when Jon doesn't do what she wants. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Nanrad

[Nanrad]

@Chris24601 The actor clarified that that is Sam's frame of thoughts not his personal own. He also said that he believes Jon could sway Sam into changing his opinion about Dany as well. I believe he clarified most of this on twitter.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

13 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

This got me thinking.  How did 23 and Me not do a GOT themed ad or at least get Kit Harrington to be in an ad.

The closest we have is this!

[BooBear]

5 hours ago, millennium said:

I thought the entire episode was sub-par, and with only five episodes left the disappointment is more acute.

Sam's reveal to Jon Snow seemed pedestrian and anti-climactic.   The rescue of Yara was so simplistic as to be insulting to the longtime viewers of the show.   The romantic dragon ride felt like sticky-sweet fan service.    Too much reliance on visual gags and one-liners, i.e., Yara head-butting Theon, Sansa on Joffrey's wedding: "It had its moments," etc.   

I finished the first episode of Season 8 feeling like the last episode of Season 7 was the actual series finale.

All of this. The fast pace it seems is making the story stuffer and I was here for good storytelling. It is too bad.  Everyone is annoying me because they aren't actually behaving like themselves. Even Arya. How long has she been waiting to see John again and she is going use that time to admonish him on remembering to be part of her family?  No she should have 100% trust in him.  This was just a way for the writers to move things along. It seems like every scene now has 2 or 3 purposes.

I did not like the dragon riding. I had assumed that if Jon ever was on a dragon it would come as necessity in the battle with the dead. I would have cut that scene.

Sam goes to John, did Dani tell you about my family? And my first thought is -- huh? She clearly had no idea who Sam was. Why would Dani tell Jon anything about it? But the story acted like somehow this should have been a conversation. 

The only highlight for me was at the start when Arya saw Jon riding in like a boss and she was a bit overcome to even say anything. For a stone cold killer you could see what that moment meant to her.

[AnnaL]

19 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Jon may not be listening to Sansa, or anyone for that matter, but that's because he knows none of it matters.  Absolutely none of it.  The AOTD is coming and will be there very soon.  They'll be lucky if even a small fraction of the people in the North survive.  It's quite possible everyone will die, he knows this.  None of it matters at all. 

 I would agree with this is Jon was consistent on this approach but he is not. 

If nothing matters, if all that matters is the war against the AOTD, then why in the world couldn't Jon have agreed to Cersei's request to remain neutral between Daenerys and Cersei? He had the perfect opportunity, nobody would have judged him for it, even Daenerys told him so. 

It would have made perfect sense that after the war, with the North ravaged and tired of war, the Northerners  wouldn't have wanted to go to KL anyway. If Jon was thinking about "his" people, this was only reasonable and the best possible outcome.

Jon seems to think that nothing matters and no one is allowed to worry about what happens after the war (food supplies) or kingships, or independence but when it actually could have made a difference, he just couldn't force himself to commit to something as easy and reasonable as Cersei asked of him. 

His reason was "If we make false promises..... " well, if the only thing that matters is the upcoming war, then wouldn't he want to have Cersei's word and commitment and wasn't that more important than his honor? Wasn't this the only reason why they captured a WW and lost a dragon? Wasn't this the purpose of this foolish mission to secure the truce and support of Cersei? 

Jon pulls the "nothing else matters" card when it fits his needs but no one else is allowed to worry or even ask about "what about after?" 

[Drogo]

14 minutes ago, AnnaL said:

20 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Jon may not be listening to Sansa, or anyone for that matter, but that's because he knows none of it matters.  Absolutely none of it.  The AOTD is coming and will be there very soon.  They'll be lucky if even a small fraction of the people in the North survive.  It's quite possible everyone will die, he knows this.  None of it matters at all. 

 I would agree with this is Jon was consistent on this approach but he is not. 

If nothing matters, if all that matters is the war against the AOTD, then why in the world couldn't Jon have agreed to Cersei's request to remain neutral between Daenerys and Cersei? He had the perfect opportunity, nobody would have judged him for it, even Daenerys told him so.

The quoted post says "none of it matters"- the "it" being the game of Northern thrones Sansa and the Northern lords are playing.  Jon's honor still matters to Jon, so he couldn't swear to remain neutral when he had already designated Daenerys as the North's Queen.  He won't remain neutral, so he won't swear to. 

Do we really believe that even if Jon had sworn neutrality between the Queens, Cersei would be sending the Lannister army to assist? 

[AnnaL]

40 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The quoted post says "none of it matters"- the "it" being the game of Northern thrones Sansa and the Northern lords are playing.  Jon's honor still matters to Jon, so he couldn't swear to remain neutral when he had already designated Daenerys as the North's Queen.  He won't remain neutral, so he won't swear to. 

Do we really believe that even if Jon had sworn neutrality between the Queens, Cersei would be sending the Lannister army to assist? 

Of course we know (as viewers) that Cersei would have never send her army. Any person with common sense would know that. Sansa could have told them that if they had care to ask. 

But they (Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion) decided that Cersei could be convinced , they organized and orchestrated a WW hunt that lost them a dragon, they traveled to KL to present their evidence, they took all the time and effort to do it and then when it came down to it Jon just couldn't say that he would stay on the sidelines. What a huge waste of time. 

Wasn't the whole purpose of the mission to secure Cersei's help? If they thought that this was never going to happen why waste time and effort in even attempting to do it? The writing is completely ridiculous if you asked me. I hope GRRM does better than this. 

When Jon arrived, instead of having him "as a guest" in the island for months , easily Daenerys could have organized a trip beyond the wall with one of her dragons, just for an aerial shot, all she/Tyrion needed to do was see the magnitude of the situation, come back, organize half her troops and fight against them. Tyrion, Varys, Missandei could have stayed in DS organizing the other half to take KL. That would have made too much sense though. 

In the meantime they have wasted months, a dragon that has made the NK stronger and none of it needed to happen because they should have known that Cersei was never going to help. Daenerys herself told Jon that she should have trusted him since the beginning so yes none of it matters now because due to their stupidity and lack of wisdom the WW are knocking on the door instead of being fought beyond the wall. 

Are they so stupid that they thought Cersei was going to accept this truce and send her help with no kind of conditions? They should have been prepared for every possible scenario and demand she would make. This was an important meeting that was so poorly handled and gave a whole glimpse on the abilities of the ones who want to rule. 

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, Nanrad said:

This is Jon and Sansa talking in private about the upcoming battle of the "Battle of the Bastards." The advice Sansa gives is incredible unhelpful. She is right in the most vaguest ways, but her advice is unproductive. Jon explicitly asks her what he should do and she flat out says, "I don’t know. I don’t know anything about battles. Just don’t do what he wants you to do."

That advice would have been helpful if Jon showed some self-discipline and stopped to think instead of immediately reacting to Ramsay bow-and-arrow game with Rickon. Jon unilaterally destroyed his army's well thought out battle plan without any notice to anyone else, and nearly destroyed his army as a result.

Sansa isn't Bran. She can't say Ramsay will do X, then Y then Z, nor did she have little birds in Winterfell

But she did warn Jon that Ramsay plays mind games to force his enemies into doing something stupid, Ramsay played an obvious mind game, and Jon still fell for it (in contrast, see the Blackfish's reaction, or lack of reaction, to the Frey's treatment of his nephew Edmure Tully during the Siege of Riverrun. My nephew's marked for death no matter what)

So perhaps from time to time Jon should reflect that he doesn't know everything, and that Sansa isn't a jerk just because she doens't rubber stamp everything he does (A wise king knows what he knows and what he doesn't. You're young. A wise young king listens to his counselors and heeds their advice until he comes of age. And the wisest kings continue to listen to them long afterwards - Tywin Lannister)

[LadyChaos]

6 hours ago, Nanrad said:

SANSA
Listen to me. Please listen to me. He wants you to make a mistake.

JON
Of course he does.

(gesturing at map)
What should I do differently?

SANSA
I don’t know. I don’t know anything about battles. Just don’t do what he wants you to do.

JON
(a trifle impatient)

Aye, that’s good advice.

SANSA
You think that’s obvious.

JON
Well, it is a bit obvious.

SANSA
If you had asked my advice earlier, I would have told you not to attack Winterfell until we had a larger force. Or is that obvious too?

JON (increasingly heated)

When will we have a larger force? We pleaded with every house that would have us. The Blackfish can’t have us. We’re lucky to have this many men.

SANSA It’s not enough.

JON
No, it’s not enough. It’s what we have. Battles have been won against greater odds.

===

This is Jon and Sansa talking in private about the upcoming battle of the "Battle of the Bastards." The advice Sansa gives is incredible unhelpful. She is right in the most vaguest ways, but her advice is unproductive. Jon explicitly asks her what he should do and she flat out says, "I don’t know. I don’t know anything about battles. Just don’t do what he wants you to do." How is this not listening to her? She isn't saying anything that Jon understands or anyone who has never seen an episode before that one could catch onto. We're seeing Ramsey from her and our perspective and not Jon's.

Her second piece of advice is obvious, but what does she also do? Doesn't tell Jon that there might be one last army in play. When he flat out asked her when they will have a larger force, she simply says, "It's not enough." Jon is acting how most people would reaction when given vague information in a dire situation. Sansa has literally been unhelpful when she had the opportunity to be of great assistance, which she so eagerly desires. 

I think people actually ignores how Sansa treats Jon in underhanded ways, which contributes to the reason why Jon still sees her as the little girl he grew up with. Furthermore, our past relationship with someone informs our perception of a person and she treated Jon like crap. That's not something immediately swept under the bridge although Jon is clearly trying. Someone noted that if Jon was Robb she'd never pull this same crap with him.

I'm sorry, but who said anything about Sansa telling Jon everything? Sansa is crying about how Jon doesn't listen to her and when he tries to listen to her, she gives vague, unhelpful advice. "Don't do what he wants you to do..." Umm, clearly. "What should I do, Sansa?" Sansa: I don't know, just not that. It isn't that Sansa isn't revealing her deepest, dark secrets, it's that she isn't explaining herself in a way that makes her worth listening to. In private, she wants to wait for someone to ask her opinion, but in public she readily voices her thoughts which undermines Jon. If you didn't know Sansa's backstory, would her advice makes sense to you?

Why wouldn't Jon trust Sansa? For one, she undermines him in public at times. Two, she's always critical of others ideas, but rarely is able to explain how her ideas are useful. Sansa's states that she lived with Ramsey, therefore, knew him that best, yet, couldn't give one solid bit of advice as to how. Complains that Jon didn't ask her input about the war, and then says, "I don't know much about war...just don't do what he wants you to do."

Jon pointed out that Sansa thinks she's smarter than everyone, he never said he was smarter than everyone. Jon continuously fails Sansa because Sansa rarely gives him adequate information, so he won't fail her. If you want someone to do a desired thing, set them up for success.

Jon had her in the battle room, and then allowed her to voice her opinions about what he should do when she raised the issue with him. He had more than created space for her, she chooses not to use it, and then complains when he's not open to suggestions she explains abstractly.

I brought up their old dynamic because you said they should go back to their old dynamic or whatever. I was pointing out that they never had a good dynamic to go back to NOT reflecting on Jon's perception of her.

Attention is referring to listening. He doesn't listen to her because she's not explaining herself well. The North listen to her because they are stuck in their ways and so is she. Not to say that she doesn't make points at times, but clearly things are changing and she and the North needs to get with the times.

I honestly don't need Sansa to spill her guts, I need her to use her words. I need people to stop blaming Jon for not listening to her when Sansa speaks in vague terms and gets upset when Jon doesn't do what she wants. 

Thank you! I'm so glad Im not the only one saying this.

When you do team building excercises at work, and they talk about problem solver the first thing they usually tell us is: Don't complain about a problem unless you already have a way to fix it.  Complaining about a problem, without a possible solution, is not helpful.

Thats all Sansa does, she complains but offers not real advice that everyone doesn't already know.  

I honestly think she is trying to make Jon fail so that she will look good.  I mean its not Jon's fault that there isn't enough food at at Winterfell to Host Dany and Co.....all the northern lords heard Jon say he was going to Dragonstone for dragon glass and allies. So she knew this was a possibility, and we all saw her telling Littlefinger about the raven Jon sent about him bending the knee.  I know the show likes to bend time a bit, and we're not supposed to bring up the books, but the trek by boat from KL to Wf was roughly 6 weeks and by foot about 2-3 months.  Jon sent that Raven from EastWatch.  That means she roughly had 3-4 months to plan for Dany......meaning its not Jon's fault if there isn't enough food.

See also also...... I have a question:  How many people would really be backing and supporting Sansa, if she had not been raped and beaten? While being raped and abused is traumatic, does that excuse her behavior before and after it happened? Does that excuse her behavior with Jon?  

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

That advice would have been helpful if Jon showed some self-discipline and stopped to think instead of immediately reacting to Ramsay bow-and-arrow game with Rickon.

Also helpful: if Sansa would stop speaking in riddles. 
Poor girl's got a character limit on her spoken thoughts.

"We need to wait until we have a larger army."
"I sent a raven to summon the Knights of the Vale and they'll probably be here in the next 24 hours.  Can you give me a day?"

"Don't do what he wants you to do."
"Ramsay is extremely accomplished with a bow and arrow and uses this skill while hunting people who have wronged him.  He also enjoys killing people you care about and making sure you see their dead bodies."

Jon doesn't think Sansa is smart because Sansa has not had many fine moments with Jon present.  Arya on the other hand came back to Winterfell and witnessed Sansa's finest moment (sentencing Littlefinger) not long after, so she disagreed with him. 

[Constantinople]

9 minutes ago, Drogo said:

"I sent a raven to summon the Knights of the Vale and they'll probably be here in the next 24 hours.  Can you give me a day?"

Given Jon's general disregard for Sansa's opinions, I'm starting to wonder if he would have brushed that off, saying Littlefinger can't be trusted.

On Edit: But also, I think the writers were unable to come up with something that would notify Jon but not spoil the surprise for viewers

Edited April 17, 2019 by Constantinople

[LadyChaos]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Given Jon's general disregard for Sansa's opinions, I'm starting to wonder if he would have brushed that off, saying Littlefinger can't be trusted.

Well....we'll never know because Sansa expects Jon to trust her implicitly, but doesn't give him the same courtesy. 

[terrymct]

19 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

  So if John doesn't die, I expect him to live where his siblings are.

Again.  If Jon doesn't die again.