S02.E10: The Red Angel

[Bort]

Burnham is stunned when she learns her ties to Section 31 run deeper than she ever fathomed. Armed with the identity of the Red Angel, the U.S.S. Discovery goes to work on its most critical mission to date.

Airdate: Thursday, March 21, 2019

[ottoDbusdriver]

Yeah, about that whole identity of the Red Angel thing -- swing and a miss.

Tilly needs to get her shit together -- she is always flustered and its becoming annoying.

Liked Culber's sitdown with Admiral Cromwell.

So Michael's mom didn't really die at the hands of the Klingons -- does this mean daddy is alive as well ?

I still don't buy the whole we were working on this project 30 years ago, but the Red Angel suit was destroyed and your parents killled -- apparently neither things were true.

It really is all about Michael, and the Red Angel has been protecting her all this ...... time.

Are they ever going to go check out the location of the other signals ? Or have they now become irrelevant ?

Did the Federation and Klingons really have some sort of temporal technology arms race ?  Yeah, I'm not really buying that either.

ETA: I'm drawing a blank about why it was such a big deal when Lt. Nillson walked on to the bridge.

Edited March 22, 2019 by ottoDbusdriver

[marinw]

“If it will ease your suffering, I accept your apology.” That is the nicest thing Spock has ever said to his sister.

[MissLucas]

Okay I did not see the twist at the end coming. But that plan made almost as much sense as Tyrion's genius plan last season. Also: what about timey-wimey, wouldn't future Burnham know about present Burnham just playing bait since she's past Burnham? *reaches for Janeway's bottle of time-travel aspirin* (Obviously that wasn't an issue in the end but shouldn't someone have brought it up?)

As usual I enjoyed Giorgiou - and although I agree with @ottoDbusdriver that Tilly needs to get her act together I think she spoke for all of us at the end of -that- scene LOL!

I loved Spock being a bitchy brother after the Red Angel reveal and everybody around trying not to laugh when he analyzed/dissected Burnham in front of all of them. And the scene between him and Burnham in the gym (?) was really well done.

So who's responsible for the slight glitch on the ship of Section 31 and what happened afterwards? Giorgiou seems to be the obvious answer and therefore it wasn't her. Maybe Control is still around.

And Mama has some explaining to do.

Edited March 22, 2019 by MissLucas

[DavidJSnyder]

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

ETA: I'm drawing a blank about why it was such a big deal when Lt. Nillson walked on to the bridge.

She's taking over Airiam's position.

[dwmarch]

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

ETA: I'm drawing a blank about why it was such a big deal when Lt. Nillson walked on to the bridge.

She took Airiam's station. Cliquey-ass crew is not ready to accept her yet.

21 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

So who's responsible for the slight glitch on the ship of Section 31 and what happened afterwards? Giorgiou seems to be the obvious answer and therefore it wasn't her. Maybe Control is still around.

And who installed the eyeball-poking device in the eyeball-scanning device? I'd call that one an avoidable design flaw.

From the looks of Leland, he's not going to be adding an eyepatch to his uniform of badassitude. His eye sealed back up with a glowing blue thing in it. I am assuming this is future Control and that it got in during that tiny window where the S31 ship needed more power.

[UNOSEZ]

Enjoyed the episode.. And I'll always enjoy sonja sohn.. Good choice to play Michaels mother... If there was ever a time for a two parter this woukda been it

[ottoDbusdriver]

34 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

She's taking over Airiam's position.

Oh ok, I thought we were supposed to recognize her from a previous episode or something.

[DavidJSnyder]

1 minute ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Oh ok, I thought we were supposed to recognize her from a previous episode or something.

She has been in a couple of previous episodes this season. She is also the actor who played Airiam last season. (This season she was recast.)

[Kromm]

2 hours ago, DavidJSnyder said:

She has been in a couple of previous episodes this season. She is also the actor who played Airiam last season. (This season she was recast.)

What a bizarre thing if that's the case.  Recast the character, just to kill the character, just to have the original actor take the same position--and it all happening in the same season?

WTF?

Edited March 22, 2019 by Kromm

[Kromm]

Honestly, this episode REALLY sucked.  Sucked hard.

Star Trek is built on contrivance, but this was definitely taking it too far.  Honestly, building a torture chair to kill Burnham temporarily, in one of the most painful ways possible was NECESSARY?  It builds on a bunch of stupid premises.  First that if they HAD been assuming it was Burnham in the future that she'd be fooled by the scenario IN HER OWN PAST.  You know. That she'd REMEMBER.  Second, that a painless less elaborate scenario, even if still supposedly lethal, wouldn't still suffice. Instead we got the show having a lame excuse for Torture Porn. What the actual fuck?

Third, it's not at all clear why the Red Angel, no matter WHO it was, would NEED to be fooled. The scenario clearly illustrates the Angel as on the same side as them, other than the fact that she'd followed into the past by this opposing force.  Is the logic supposed to be that the Angel is smart enough to time travel but not smart enough to know she's being tagged along with/followed?

Onto the rest of the episode. Again it's just weird and contrived that the Admiral happens to be a Councilor/Shrink/Whatever they call it before Next Gen.  I'm not saying those people can't be promoted to high rank, but on a Command Track for general operations or command of a quadrant, or whatever her actual job is, it makes little sense.  Her being in command of all Starfleet Shrinks might make sense. But that's not what happened here. It's just a strange choice just to set up that scene with the Doctor.

There are other scenes of emotional reconciliation in this episode, like Burnham and Whathername with the breathing thing and their scene, which are perhaps... not contrived... but which do feel a little self indulgent. 

This bizarro version of Spock, as entertaining as he is, again makes less and less sense each episode. People who don't understand the classic character might see him as always having been a dick.  But he wasn't. The point of McCoy constantly harping on his cold logic and lack of humanity is that MCCOY WAS WRONG!  McCoy's purpose was indeed to coax more humanity out of Spock, but not by making him more sensitive. It was by going overboard in his reactions and creating comedy, or on rare occasions pathos, around those interactions.   Other than in the Pilot, where he spoke like a robot, Spock was portrayed as understanding basic concepts like empathy, at least in the overall sense that being a dick is illogical because it's inefficient, whereas empathy is at least somewhat logical when dealing with illogical beings because motivation and cooperation are efficient.  He may not have processed empathy as an emotive response in himself, but he followed the forms of it, the outlines, to fit in. Because it was logical to be polite, at the very least.  To not be... a dick.

This Spock?  Just can't seem to HELP being a dick. It's totally a different character.  While these past two episodes in particular wanted to make a point that at least SOME of his previous portrayed dickishness was an attempt to burst Burnham's illusion that she's responsible for all bad things, by pissing her off enough to project the blame outward instead of upon herself, really the idea that he'd use that tactic is really weird. It's a tactic that's simultaneously both too clumsy for Spock, but in a way also too on the nose in terms of understanding emotions to really make sense with the Spock we always knew.  Who was shown as being confused by emotions, at the best of times. 

I don't mind the twist we saw with who the Angel was... in theory. But I fear we're going to get some elaborate total bullshit to explain it.  Just like whatever happened with the Section 31 boss is going to get eye rolly too, for other reasons.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Kromm

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Kromm said:

What a bizarre thing if that's the case.  Recast the character, just to kill the character, just to have the original actor take the same position--and it all happening in the same season?

WTF?

Maybe she was allergic to makeup / prosthetics....

[thuganomics85]

As soon as everyone though Michael was going to be the Red Angel, I figured it wouldn't be the case, but I have to admit that I didn't think about it being her mother.  So, she apparently didn't die after-all?  Also, she's played by Sonja Sohn which is pretty cool.

While everyone else on the ship wouldn't like it, I for one think that Georgiou should be required to be present for every relationship drama scene and make things even more awkward than they already are!  Hell, why stop with this show?!  Georgiou should just go on every show, insert herself into every scenario involving angst or relationship drama, and make everyone uncomfortable!

I am so confused over what happened with Leland at the end.  Clearly the needle thing wasn't suppose to happen, but what is going on?  Is this Control's doing?

Spock really does seem to enjoy being the dickish brother, which doesn't quite fly with the whole Vulcan logic thing, even if its admittedly amusing.

Wait, so Nilsson is played by the original actress who played Airaim (last season), so Airaim was played by a different actress this entire time, and has been killed off to bring back the original actress, only in human form?  That seems very convoluted and over-complicated.

Pike continues to be the best captain when it comes to just going with the flow.  "Seriously, you want to bring the Red Angel out by killing yourself and hoping she comes in to save you?  Fine, it's literally your neck on the line, although this will not look good on my resume if shit gets fucked up!"

[paigow]

Why does the floor of the photon torpedo bay need to go up and down for loading? Seems like a feature of questionable value / utility....

TOS Spock sometimes spoke with a British accent...but this version is American...

[Lilly77]

This was a very strange episode.  Everything seems to be working for this show except plotting.  Visuals, acting, characters all work, they just have such dumb things to do sometimes.

Ariam's funeral was a bit too long.  

I thought Georgiou was actually trying to help fix Stamets and Culber by being so provocative.  I don't know what is going on with her character as it is so inconsistent, but everything certainly is more interesting whenever she is on the screen.  

I actually am a Tyler fan.  but his hair sure was weird this episode and he's not best utilised in a role which forces him to be a passive observer most of the time.  And Georgiou's extensions were indeed uneven and seemed really dry and unkempt.  Were the hairdressers on strike?

[MissLucas]

3 hours ago, Lilly77 said:

I actually am a Tyler fan.  but his hair sure was weird this episode and he's not best utilised in a role which forces him to be a passive observer most of the time.  And Georgiou's extensions were indeed uneven and seemed really dry and unkempt.  Were the hairdressers on strike?

Tyler's hair and Spock's beard make me think this show wants to keep its female fans in line LOL!

Joking aside it really looks as if the show has no idea what to do with Tyler this season. Obviously TPTB want to keep him as a regular around but since so much focus is on another important male character in Burnham's life he rarely gets to do anything useful.

My knowledge on bio-neural signature is a bit rusty but shouldn't Burnham's be different from Mama's?

[Solara19]

Oh Airiam, we hardly knew ye......

But you still got quite the send - off.

I think this character could have been used to explore what humanity might be  like in the future, which is a topic a science fiction show should be interested in, but now she is gone.

When they opened her artificial brain case and erased her files, I know they were doing this to get rid of any remaining Control malware, but it made me wonder about Airiam and her perceptions of the world. We know she felt emotions, but what is it like to erase your memories the way we erase an old email? She was more augmented than Seven of Nine, and not an artificial being like Data, so was she post human then?

Too bad we won’t get to learn more about her.

I am giving kudos/props/ bravos here to Ms Martin-Green for her reactions to Leland’s story about her parents. She was incredulous, questioning, sorrowful, tearful, and that  angry look on her face before she popped Leland was quite scary. That was emotionally wrenching for the character and the audience.

I agree with the poster who called Michael’s death scene Torture Porn. Disturbing.

I also agree with the poster who wondered about Michael’s mother’s bio-neural signature. Michael shares her mother’s mitochondrial DNA but she is a separate person of course, and I expect in this time period they know a lot more about genetics than we do, so I guess a technobabble explanation is in order to explain this.

I am also expecting that Spock and Michael will be separated somehow in whatever plot twist resolves the story. Their rapprochement  in the gym seemed like foreshadowing of this. I know the show runners have said that the show takes place in the same time line as TOS but I am not sure how we get from this to the universe where Spock has no sister, there are no Kelpiens, and no spore drive teleportation device.

This show has good acting, great effects, and good music. Now I am hoping for that true science fiction Sensa Wonder resolution of this story line.

[Charlemagne]

1 hour ago, Solara19 said:

I know the show runners have said that the show takes place in the same time line as TOS but I am not sure how we get from this to the universe where Spock has no sister, there are no Kelpiens, and no spore drive teleportation device.

I don't know that this is really a problem. The history of Spock keeping his personal life close to the vest is thoroughly  documented. We (and the crew) didn't know who his parents were/if they were still alive until the very episode in which they were introduced. We (and the crew) didn't know that he had a fiance until his Pon Farr cycle occurred. We (and the crew) didn't know that he had a half-brother until the situation arrived involving him in Final Frontier. This has been a consistent pattern regarding Spock so I buy it. Especially since anything could still happen and Burnham could die at the end of the series which might be why he doesn't discuss it going forward.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Charlemagne

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, Solara19 said:

I agree with the poster who called Michael’s death scene Torture Porn. Disturbing.

Yeah, there really was no reason to make SMG scream herself hoarse during what looked like a particularly gruesome way to go when a well applied cut to the femoral artery would do the trick too. And they could have sedated her for the whole thing - it would have been the logical thing to do (assuming that logic ever dared to enter that particular plot-line).

[Mom x 3]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Yeah, there really was no reason to make SMG scream herself hoarse during what looked like a particularly gruesome way to go when a well applied cut to the femoral artery would do the trick too. And they could have sedated her for the whole thing - it would have been the logical thing to do (assuming that logic ever dared to enter that particular plot-line).

You know, that's a really good point.  She just had to die, but why did she have to suffer like that?  She acted the hell out of it though, and I don't even like her.

Tilly cracks me up.

The scene with Georgiou Stamets and Cluber was hot.  Tilly needed to get the hell out.

Pike and Ash will keep me coming back, but Ash needs more to do.  And needs a haircut.

I am loving Spock.  He reminds me of the boy in The Search For Spock who was entering puberty - looks wise.  I can see him being younger and less in control of his human side.  I can also see him playing up his logic just to piss off McCoy.  I do agree that his advice to Stamets was weird.  

I hand wave the stuff that doesn't make sense as much in this one as I do in any other trek, so I am totally loving this show.

[Joimiaroxeu]

How slow is that elevator or how tall is that ship? Seems like Ash and Burnham were talking at least five minutes. Seems inefficient and low-tech for a place that has the transporter function.

So is Culber slowly coming around? If so I'm glad Stamets is giving him the time and space to do it, not that he's had a choice.

Quote

Yeah, about that whole identity of the Red Angel thing -- swing and a miss.

ICAM. So much buildup for Michael to be the savior of all space and time and then it turns out to be her mommy. It left me underwhelmed.

[ottoDbusdriver]

12 hours ago, Solara19 said:

I also agree with the poster who wondered about Michael’s mother’s bio-neural signature. Michael shares her mother’s mitochondrial DNA but she is a separate person of course, and I expect in this time period they know a lot more about genetics than we do, so I guess a technobabble explanation is in order to explain this.

You just know that Michael is somehow going to end up in that Red Angel suit at some point.  So that the bioneural tag will in fact be correct at the time it was sampled.

Edited March 23, 2019 by ottoDbusdriver

[SourK]

Here is a thing that surprised me: My space girlfriend Georgiou did something nice/right/emotionally intelligent for once when she decided the story about Michael's parents wasn't hers to tell, but that she could put pressure on the situation to "make sure it was told." I don't know why she wanted to do something nice, right, or emotionally intelligent, but good for her. She's better at managing conflict than most people on this show.

On 3/21/2019 at 10:40 PM, MissLucas said:

Also: what about timey-wimey, wouldn't future Burnham know about present Burnham just playing bait since she's past Burnham? *reaches for Janeway's bottle of time-travel aspirin* (Obviously that wasn't an issue in the end but shouldn't someone have brought it up?)

Yeah. It's also an extremely excellent reason why she shouldn't have been included in the briefings about what the plan was or told the exact details as she was demanding. I'm really surprised with Section 31 guy didn't tell her that.

On 3/22/2019 at 4:49 AM, thuganomics85 said:

While everyone else on the ship wouldn't like it, I for one think that Georgiou should be required to be present for every relationship drama scene and make things even more awkward than they already are! 

I don't get why all the random guest stars ship these guys so hard. I don't get anything that happened in that scene. But yes, everything would be made worse and therefore kind of improved if Georgiou were there to interfere with it.

20 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Joking aside it really looks as if the show has no idea what to do with Tyler this season. Obviously TPTB want to keep him as a regular around but since so much focus is on another important male character in Burnham's life he rarely gets to do anything useful.

It's weird because he should have been really interesting. And I actually think he was interesting when he stayed with the Klingons. But that whole story line got dropped and now it seems like they're trying to find a new divided loyalty for him by putting him in Section 31 but it's really not working.

13 hours ago, Mom x 3 said:

You know, that's a really good point.  She just had to die, but why did she have to suffer like that?  She acted the hell out of it though, and I don't even like her.

I think there were a couple of moments where I actually felt like I was suffocating watching that. It was a really intense scene. But, absolutely. Even if we buy into the premise that she needed to die, why did she need to die in the worst way possible? What did that add to the experiment?

[Clanstarling]

On 3/21/2019 at 7:40 PM, MissLucas said:

I loved Spock being a bitchy brother after the Red Angel reveal and everybody around trying not to laugh when he analyzed/dissected Burnham in front of all of them. And the scene between him and Burnham in the gym (?) was really well done.

I liked that as well. I have no problem with this Spock, as he's younger, and in this particular time, emotionally fragile - though he's recovering. I also like the way their brother sister dynamic played out with him throwing shade in a very Vulcan way.

On 3/22/2019 at 1:49 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Spock really does seem to enjoy being the dickish brother, which doesn't quite fly with the whole Vulcan logic thing, even if its admittedly amusing.

I dunno, seems like we've seen some pretty dickish Vulcans over the years.

On 3/22/2019 at 6:33 AM, MissLucas said:

Tyler's hair and Spock's beard make me think this show wants to keep its female fans in line LOL!

Joking aside it really looks as if the show has no idea what to do with Tyler this season. Obviously TPTB want to keep him as a regular around but since so much focus is on another important male character in Burnham's life he rarely gets to do anything useful.

My knowledge on bio-neural signature is a bit rusty but shouldn't Burnham's be different from Mama's?

I hate Tyler's hair, but love Spock's beard. Well, actually, I'd like Tyler's hair if it ever seemed washed and combed.

I wondered about the bio-neural signature too. I'm sure they'll have some techno-babble to explain it.

[Latverian Diplomat]

On 3/21/2019 at 9:40 PM, MissLucas said:

Okay I did not see the twist at the end coming. But that plan made almost as much sense as Tyrion's genius plan last season. Also: what about timey-wimey, wouldn't future Burnham know about present Burnham just playing bait since she's past Burnham? *reaches for Janeway's bottle of time-travel aspirin* (Obviously that wasn't an issue in the end but shouldn't someone have brought it up?)

I believe that is why Spock wouldn't let them rescue her. Logic demanded that she actually be in mortal danger; humans couldn't be relied on to actually do that. In a way, it's the most Vulcan thing he's done on this show.

On 3/22/2019 at 2:06 AM, Kromm said:

The point of McCoy constantly harping on his cold logic and lack of humanity is that MCCOY WAS WRONG!  McCoy's purpose was indeed to coax more humanity out of Spock, but not by making him more sensitive. It was by going overboard in his reactions and creating comedy, or on rare occasions pathos, around those interactions.   Other than in the Pilot, where he spoke like a robot, Spock was portrayed as understanding basic concepts like empathy, at least in the overall sense that being a dick is illogical because it's inefficient, whereas empathy is at least somewhat logical when dealing with illogical beings because motivation and cooperation are efficient.  He may not have processed empathy as an emotive response in himself, but he followed the forms of it, the outlines, to fit in. Because it was logical to be polite, at the very least.  To not be... a dick.

This is a good analysis. But, FWIW, McCoy wasn't always wrong (that's a good thing, IMHO). Two examples are in "Bread and Circuses" where Spock is testing the cell bars for the umpteenth time, and McCoy talks about how Spock tortures himself trying to be the perfect Vulcan. And in "Galileo 7", when he points out that Spock failed to take into account that the aliens wouldn't respond logically, like Vulcans, but emotionally.

On 3/22/2019 at 8:33 AM, MissLucas said:

My knowledge on bio-neural signature is a bit rusty but shouldn't Burnham's be different from Mama's?

Indeed! Perhaps they are both the Red Angel at different times?

17 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

How slow is that elevator or how tall is that ship? Seems like Ash and Burnham were talking at least five minutes. Seems inefficient and low-tech for a place that has the transporter function.

I think it has an AI that detects dramatically important conversations and "circles the airport" so to speak, until the convo is done. 🙂 

In a similar vein, we've seen that people's quarters and Picard's office had doors that didn't just open when someone approached and had doorbells. Wouldn't the briefing room door work the same way during a confidential meeting. Tilly's barge in speech was cute but makes no sense if you think about it.

6 hours ago, SourK said:

Here is a thing that surprised me: My space girlfriend Georgiou did something nice/right/emotionally intelligent for once when she decided the story about Michael's parents wasn't hers to tell, but that she could put pressure on the situation to "make sure it was told." I don't know why she wanted to do something nice, right, or emotionally intelligent, but good for her. She's better at managing conflict than most people on this show.

Yes, and this is a problem, IMHO with how this show handles the mirror universe. In TOS, this is the exact thing mirror doubles were terrible at, which is why Mirror!Kirk got thrown in the brig almost immediately. 

If you want a devious motive, maybe she just wanted Burnham to take a swing at Leland, so he had to tell it.

[Ottis]

I have no problem with this Spock. He’s younger, and he doesn’t control his emotions as well as the one in TOS (which showed this in The Menagerie) and snark is an emotion. He will get  better at it. 

I go back to my “coloring in the white spaces” comment from last week. Discovery is adding to what we knew from TOS. New species, new characters and new aspects of characters we knew (Spock and Pike, for starters).

If I have issues, it is with the new characters. The send off for cyber woman (I don’t even remember her name) was way, way out of synch with our connection to her. And I hate to admit it, because I love Michael, but she really is a special snowflake. The amount of concern over her plan to be bait was almost comical. Even Georgiou?

Until the final reveal, I thought the fact Michael was the Red Angel was a promising way to cover the issue of no mention of Spock having a sister in any other Trek. I didn’t need that... white spaces... but I could construct a rationale. And then it wasn’t Michael. 

I love how the show is gradually adding in sounds from TOS. I heard the transporter and the red alert sounds this time. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Ottis

[Starchild]

9 hours ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

Yes, and this is a problem, IMHO with how this show handles the mirror universe. In TOS, this is the exact thing mirror doubles were terrible at, which is why Mirror!Kirk got thrown in the brig almost immediately.

Ah, but she did make it all the way to the top, so clearly she's better than Mirror!Kirk.

Airiam's funeral was quite moving. Or would have been if they'd shown anyone at all interacting with her socially in any of the episodes before the one she died in. 

I LMAO when, after they believe Michael is the Red Angel, they're all trying to maintain a professional distance by referring to the Angel as "she", but Michael is all, like "me, me, me". LOL that is so Burnham.

[LittleIggy]

“Did you just call me ‘Papi’?” 😆😆 Yes, Giorgiou should be in every episode! I love Michelle Yeoh. Love Anson Mount, too. Pike is great.

Could we please have one Starfleet character who doesn’t think that Michael is teh most awesomest person evah? I’m sick of her being treated as if the sun rises from her butt every morning. 🙄

Edited March 24, 2019 by LittleIggy

[Starchild]

4 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

Could we please have one Starfleet character who doesn’t think that Michael is teh most awesomest person evah? I’m sick of her being treated as if the sun rises from her butt every morning. 🙄

Well, Michael herself doesn't seem to think so. What with her being all emo and shit.

[ahisma]

I enjoyed this, even though I agree that most of the nits picked above were annoying. The one thing I really had a hard time swallowing, though, was the Klingon Time Crystal. That was way too Marvel/Thanos's gauntlet for me. Technology is technology. Magic gems are magic gems, and not found in the Star Trek universe.

[starri]

8 hours ago, ahisma said:

I enjoyed this, even though I agree that most of the nits picked above were annoying. The one thing I really had a hard time swallowing, though, was the Klingon Time Crystal. That was way too Marvel/Thanos's gauntlet for me. Technology is technology. Magic gems are magic gems, and not found in the Star Trek universe.

We've already seen Mudd with a time crystal.  

[Lebanna]

2 hours ago, starri said:

We've already seen Mudd with a time crystal.  

Let alone the various orbs of whatever that popped up regularly on DS9. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

2 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Let alone the various orbs of whatever that popped up regularly on DS9. 

Yeah, there was the Orb of Time, which if I recall correctly the DS9 crew used to venture back to the TOS episode 'The Trouble with Tribbles' 

[Linderhill]

5 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Yeah, there was the Orb of Time, which if I recall correctly the DS9 crew used to venture back to the TOS episode 'The Trouble with Tribbles' 

and those orbs greatly resembled the zpms from SG: Atlantis.  Or rather the zpms resembled the Orbs of the Prophets on DS9

[Cerulean]

It seems to me that Georgiou really is trying to look out for Michael. I want to know how she compares this Michael to her own daughter. 

Also, the snark between Michael and Spock felt real, so kudos to the writer. 

Also, I first heard Georgiou’s line to Stamets as “meditation”. It might be even funnier than the actual line of “medication” 

Finally, I was also questioning Michaels involvement with her capture. Either they’ve created a new timeline and matrix-future is off, or Michael was already there for it and this closes the timeloop. As long as the angel gets there at some point, it could literally be years in her own time of going back to other locations and doing other things as long as she does this trip In her dying moments. It absolutely does nothing to stop her from making all the other visits/incursions that they are trying to prevent. 

In other words, they are failing basic time travel 101. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Cerulean

[ahisma]

16 hours ago, starri said:

We've already seen Mudd with a time crystal.  

Mudd and whatever huckster scam he has going on is one thing. As a science-based show I'd prefer that they'd called it blahdiblahdium, “what some people call a time crystal because its properties yadda yadda tachyon particles yadda yadda.”

(Also, serious scientists building a new technology around something that didn't even have in hand until late in the game? Science doesn’t really work that way.)

DS9 did tend towards the mystical, but mainly because it was a case of technology so advanced it looked like magic, and over centuries / millennia the locals built up a mystical religion around it.

[KimberStormer]

I have been in a foul mood lately so I tried to put this off til I felt better, but finally I just had to watch in the knowledge that if I waited to feel better, I would probably miss the season.  So, I watched it grumpy, and unfairly.  But it does seem to me that, you know, they put people in more dangerous situations every day in Starfleet, without these dramatics.  This was an entirely controlled situation with rescue teams standing by.  In TNG they frequently made the claim that sometimes captains have to send people to their deaths, and that's without standing ready to revive them, and also without the presumably iron-clad knowledge that they must survive this because their future self exists.  If Burnham was really the Red Angel, she couldn't possibly die before she puts on the suit and goes around doing stuff, right?  But then, having lived through all this before, she should also know exactly what they were doing, etc, so the trap either wouldn't work or just thinking of the trap would get her to show up because why put herself through that or even why bother with any of it when you could just...you know...talk to people....

Count me among those who did not understand anything about the Georgiou/Stamets/Culber scene and who thought the hair was distractingly terrible this episode.  And I generally have liked Ash's hair and beard this season.  But just about everyone looked awful this episode for some reason.

I had predicted Michael as the Red Angel for awhile but when they announced it so early in the episode I thought it must be a red herring.  And Mother Burnham seemed like the most obvious choice once Leland told his story.  Can't say I understand why that story was something for Michael to be so mad about, though.  He didn't, at least according to what he said, get them killed on purpose, it was a mistake. 

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 11:22 PM, Kromm said:

What a bizarre thing if that's the case.  Recast the character, just to kill the character, just to have the original actor take the same position--and it all happening in the same season?

WTF?

I've heard that Saru's ganglia were an extremely expensive special effect, so I wonder if they're trying to remove all such from the main cast.  So it might have gone something like this: they like the actress, and want to keep her on the show, but they don't like the expensive and annoying makeup effects of the character.  (There's also the fact that she was to all appearances a robot, which makes no sense with Data, etc)  Since the makeup is the character, they recast the makeup on someone else, kill her off, and replace her with the actress they like, without makeup, and boom, everyone's happy.

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 6:33 AM, MissLucas said:

Joking aside it really looks as if the show has no idea what to do with Tyler this season. Obviously TPTB want to keep him as a regular around but since so much focus is on another important male character in Burnham's life he rarely gets to do anything useful.

I'm just glad the beardy dude kissing Michael from the "This Season On" preview at the start of the season was Ash and not Spock, like I thought it was when I saw it.  But it is weird they brought Ash back after his goodbye at the end of last season and now have him...sort of there.  Not using his ambiguous-Klingonness really much at all.  His devotion to Section 31 seems arbitrary and unearned.  idk I love Ash and wish they would do better by him, pretty much always.

As for Spock, still not working for me as Spock.  It's a good character, it's just not Spock.  I'll go on with my original theory that it is really Sybok, which makes 1000x more sense.  If Sybok was raised with a human sister, we'd have no reason to know it and it would fit with his comfortable emotionalism.  He was all about healing people's pain so it would make sense for him to go around dealing out "Dammit Jim!  Stop blaming yourself!" therapy.  And he was a big believer in God so he would be all to happy to go around chasing an angel.  I can easily believe this guy grows up to be hippie guru Sybok in 30 years, but not TOS Spock in like 6 months.

Edited March 25, 2019 by KimberStormer

[marinw]

2 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I'll go on with my original theory that it is really Sybok, which makes 1000x more sense.

Great theory! I forgot all about Sybok.

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, ahisma said:

Mudd and whatever huckster scam he has going on is one thing. As a science-based show I'd prefer that they'd called it blahdiblahdium, “what some people call a time crystal because its properties yadda yadda tachyon particles yadda yadda.”

You mean, like "unobtainium?" 😉

5 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I had predicted Michael as the Red Angel for awhile but when they announced it so early in the episode I thought it must be a red herring.  And Mother Burnham seemed like the most obvious choice once Leland told his story.  Can't say I understand why that story was something for Michael to be so mad about, though.  He didn't, at least according to what he said, get them killed on purpose, it was a mistake.

I get why she was angry - she's spent her entire life thinking she was responsible for her parents' deaths. Even if they were doing secret work (and for some reason were allowed to take their kid along), it seems like someone could have come up with a cover story to take that undeserved guilt off of her shoulders.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I get why she was angry - she's spent her entire life thinking she was responsible for her parents' deaths. Even if they were doing secret work (and for some reason were allowed to take their kid along), it seems like someone could have come up with a cover story to take that undeserved guilt off of her shoulders.

But who should have been concocting that cover story? Only people knowing what her parents were doing would have known that they had been the prime targets of the attack. And Section 31 isn't really into counseling - although Giorgiou was seen moonlighting as marriage counselor this episode 😉

Not to mention that she kept her reasoning (my parents were killed because I delayed the planned trip to Mars) pretty much to herself. IIRC she revealed it to tiny Spock and later to Tyler but I don't think neither Amanda nor Sarek were ever aware that she carried this along with all her trauma?

[Kromm]

On 3/24/2019 at 12:27 AM, ahisma said:

I enjoyed this, even though I agree that most of the nits picked above were annoying. The one thing I really had a hard time swallowing, though, was the Klingon Time Crystal. That was way too Marvel/Thanos's gauntlet for me. Technology is technology. Magic gems are magic gems, and not found in the Star Trek universe.

I heard the phrase "Time Crystal" and audibly groaned at the stupidity. That's Dr. Who level of not-giving-a-shit-about-hand-waving.  That there's a magic Time rock that just happens to exist, with "Time" in the name.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

But who should have been concocting that cover story? Only people knowing what her parents were doing would have known that they had been the prime targets of the attack. And Section 31 isn't really into counseling - although Giorgiou was seen moonlighting as marriage counselor this episode 😉

Not to mention that she kept her reasoning (my parents were killed because I delayed the planned trip to Mars) pretty much to herself. IIRC she revealed it to tiny Spock and later to Tyler but I don't think neither Amanda nor Sarek were ever aware that she carried this along with all her trauma?

Fair points. Still, her being angry and lashing out at him still makes sense to me. 

[Kromm]

On 3/23/2019 at 11:02 PM, LittleIggy said:

“Did you just call me ‘Papi’?” 😆😆 Yes, Giorgiou should be in every episode! I love Michelle Yeoh.

Michelle Yeoh is going to be too busy to appear on this show, starring in the Section 31 spinoff they're planning.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Fair points. Still, her being angry and lashing out at him still makes sense to me. 

Oh yeah, she's allowed to be angry and he deserved the punches anyway- just for keeping the truth about the Red Angel a secret for so long, trying to drill into Spock's brain and lots of other things we probably don't even know about.

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

Michelle Yeoh is going to be too busy to appear on this show, starring in the Section 31 spinoff they're planning.

I feel conflicted - I want that spin-off but what will happen to this show when Giorgiou isn't around anymore to bring the humor and hard truth?

[TV Anonymous]

On 3/22/2019 at 2:22 AM, Kromm said:

What a bizarre thing if that's the case.  Recast the character, just to kill the character, just to have the original actor take the same position--and it all happening in the same season?

WTF?

It could be that TPTB for whatever reason likes Sara Mitich. When they planned to kill Airiam they kept her by recasted her to Nilsson and then offered Hannah Cheesman a specific and limited contract only up to Airiam's death.

[starri]

9 hours ago, Kromm said:

I heard the phrase "Time Crystal" and audibly groaned at the stupidity. That's Dr. Who level of not-giving-a-shit-about-hand-waving.  That there's a magic Time rock that just happens to exist, with "Time" in the name.

Time crystals are real.  Obviously, they don't do what they do in Star Trek, but they do exist.

[AnimeMania]

Sorry, late to the party. How did Michael escape from the cage that was holding her mama?

[John Potts]

Wait - people actually noticed that a crew member died!? They clearly haven't read the Starfleet manual that deaths are to go unremarked (I can think of only two or three exceptions in 50 years if Trekking).

Of course, the Galaxy revolves around Michael! But did 10 year old Michael really believe her parents would tell her about the secret project they were involved in? And why exactly was Michael strapped into the chair? Just push her out the airlock, it would have the same effect.

It really doesn't make much difference what a Carbon Monoxide atmosphere is laced with - CO is plenty lethal by itself (though it wouldn't inflict those gnarly scars).

On 3/22/2019 at 7:06 AM, Kromm said:

The scenario clearly illustrates the Angel as on the same side as them, other than the fact that she'd followed into the past by this opposing force.  Is the logic supposed to be that the Angel is smart enough to time travel but not smart enough to know she's being tagged along with/followed?

 

On 3/23/2019 at 9:57 AM, SourK said:

It's also an extremely excellent reason why she shouldn't have been included in the briefings about what the plan was or told the exact details as she was demanding. I'm really surprised with Section 31 guy didn't tell her that.

I don't understand why they didn't simply say it was a Section 31 plan to put Michael in a deadly situation to summon the Angel. It would cause fewer "But I'd know!" problems and they're certainly ruthless enough to do so. Then you could have our heroes rush to rescue her (and if necessary, save the day).

[Idiotboy]

"Michael, it's you."

Of course it is! Because Burnham is The Center Of The Known Universe (except when it's Spock, who really needs to shave; he looks and sounds like Tyrion Lannister in space).

Nhan, apologizing to Burham for saving her life (and that of everybody aboard Disco)? That took some bloody nerve, writers.

The funeral of Airiam, who barely existed as a character before E9 was overlong, maudlin (especially Michael's Chicken Soup for the Galaxy) and wholly unwarranted. Culber barely got a fare-thee-well after Voq snuffed him but a Red Shirt gets a state send-off. Argh.

Burnham: "I gotta go." [Georgiou grasps Burnham by the shoulder; they exchange a long, intense gaze.] ..... and a thousand slashfics were born.

Loved, just loved, Georgiou as relationship counselor to Stamets and Culber. TPTB are having a whale of a time, God bless them, writing for Michelle Yeoh and she's delivering pure gold in return. Georgiou should be part of all ST timelines, no matter how much retconning it takes.

[Tachi Rocinante]

On 8/16/2020 at 1:18 PM, Idiotboy said:

Georgiou should be part of all ST timelines, no matter how much retconning it takes.

Absolutely