S08.E12: You Give Love A Bad Name

[Crazy Bird Lady]

Agreed:

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

I don't know if Kate has a drinking problem, my senses tell me she does, which makes Luke even more horrible because Luke should have gone to the experts privately and told them so, then asked for a divorce.  Right now, he's using Kate's drinking against her which is wrong.  

In fact, if Kate was as 'out of it' as Luke said during the honeymoon (when they apparently first had secret sex) --Luke was probably committing rape by having sex with a woman too intoxicated to consent!!

...And yes, Kate may actually have a "drinking problem," although I don't think she considers it so. Drinking to make emotional pain go away is a problem, and Luke has been causing Kate a lot of emotional pain.  

[gonecrackers]

One thing I will say about Kristine is I like that she most likely wouldn't let Keith get away with any BS. Steph & Kate need to take lessons from her. Kate is giving a little push back but is really milking the victim role & I can't stand that about her.  Steph going to bed when they arrived at the mini-moon was stupid. She should've been up with everyone watching her husband interact, & figure out how he  makes an ass out of himself when he's unhappy. Instead she makes excuses for him & checks out to sleep. Steph is using avoidance but it won't work when AJ is flipping out over a fussy baby at 2am, so she needs to wake up a bit. Kate, well, there's not much more to say - both she & Luke are a mess each in their own special ways.

[KateHearts]

11 hours ago, ChristmasJones said:

As for Kate, I also wonder if one of the reasons she is not more forceful about the whole topic is that maybe she does become an asshole when she drinks. This does happen. People can seem one way and then once they get enough alcohol in them, another side can come out. Some are funny/affectionate/sloppy drunks, and some can get aggressive and mean.

Interesting way to think about it. It does seem as if maybe Luke isn't being forthcoming on camera (he said a few times, "if you really want to discuss this on camera..." because it could be damaging to her (even further). Hard to believe a guy would be shady and weird about having sex with an attractive woman who is interested- and after all, he DID sign up for all of this.

That said, his super condescending look (like a father getting ready to chide his toddler) whenever she wants to discuss a serious topic just turns my stomach.  They are both dancing around their real issues (which, to me, are that they are not compatible, he's not attracted to her and she is thinking that his reluctant acceptance of sex is some sort of signal that they are compatible) is just tiresome and has them spinning in circles.  It's time to talk frankly, in private, and either fish or cut bait.

[pdlinda]

3 hours ago, Booger666 said:

Kate has said that they cuddle in bed and she initiates because it seems like the natural next step.   She has also said that he initiates and she asks him if he is sure and he says yes, he wants to have sex with her.  Regardless of how it started it seems he leaves the room and ignores her for hours afterwards.  

He said that the honeymoon time she was drunk.  When they got home she was unsure about moving in with him because things were so uncomfortable.  How does he welcome her to the new apartment ... with two bottles of wine.  Makes no damn sense.  If he was really bothered by her drinking and wanted her to stop he wouldn’t be gifting her wine.  He makes bogus claims about her drinking to shut down all discussion about his weird behavior in their sex life.

I have this LASTING impression of Luke's mother when she met with Kate.  She had a controlling, "managerial" style and coldness that made me wonder how Luke has developed his beliefs and feelings about women.  I believe that mother would always be a dominant force in ANY relationship (male and/or female) Luke is involved with at any time.  

I also wondered about his "profession."  They ID him as a "civil engineer" but he runs a dating service?  I wonder if he is or ever has been employed as a "civil engineer."  

To say that I'm horrified at the abuse, phoniness (pretense with the hipster "hat"), and manipulative ways of Luke would be a gross understatement!!!

[OnTime]

5 hours ago, Drogo said:

This gaslighting pencildick's hat really says OBEY...

I thought they weren't allowed to show any company logos! In previous seasons, they have put tape over them or turned the shirts inside out.

What is up here?

[princelina]

2 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I think that Stephanie attributes a lot of AJ's stress to filming the show and she is trying to convince herself that he will be calmer when that is no longer part of their lives. I like Stephanie a lot but I think she needs to call AJ on his bullshit. When he pulled his tantrum on the minimoon and she just went to bed, I thought she missed an opportunity to say "you really embarrassed me with the way you were acting and I don't want to be married to someone who reacts this way to disappointment."

Thing is - I and I know this is an unpopular opinion - I think they could make this work IF AJ were willing to work on those behaviors. I think he really is falling for Stephanie and I think he would do just about anything for her. That may be enough motivation for him to admit there is a problem (if for no other reason than his behavior makes her unhappy) and start some anger management therapy. I think Stephanie also has some genuine feelings for AJ that could go beyond just wanting to be married. AJ, for all his faults, seems to try pretty hard to be a good partner to her. I think under all the dysfunction, there is some good raw material there. And I say that as someone who really dislikes AJ and would not ever want to be in a room with him for more than about a minute.

I feel really badly for Keith. I think he is absolutely falling for Kristine and I think he, too is trying to learn, grow and be the partner she wants and deserves. Again - unpopular opinion - I don't think Keith is lazy. I think he's working hard at a difficult job to try to improve his lot in life. His wife asked him to start cooking and he did. He did the cooking class and during the minimoon, saw an opportunity to learn more stuff in the kitchen from a guy who likes to cook (hopefully he took exactly NO other lessons from Luke). He set up the surprise for Kristine at the end of the minimoon. Maybe Kristine could "do better" (I like her a lot too) but I think she definitely could do worse than Keith. I hope she gives him a chance to see if there really could be something there.

I am hoping that in addition to AJ calming down after the cameras are gone, Stephanie will be more comfortable telling him to knock it off.  Maybe she is uncomfortable starting what could turn into a fight on camera, or doesn't want to embarrass him with it.  I do think he wants to please her and would make an effort.  I also have hopes for Kristine and Keith - she is a little bit of a queen but seems to recognize that he's trying and enjoys that about him.

Also - when Luke referred to Kate being "blackout drunk" he also mentioned 4 glasses of wine.  I don't think that's enough to make a regular drinker blackout drunk - I had 4 glasses of wine on Monday at a birthday party.  So I felt that was just more gaslighting from him.

Edited March 20, 2019 by princelina

[aphroditewitch]

28 minutes ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

Agreed:

In fact, if Kate was as 'out of it' as Luke said during the honeymoon (when they apparently first had secret sex) --Luke was probably committing rape by having sex with a woman too intoxicated to consent!!

...And yes, Kate may actually have a "drinking problem," although I don't think she considers it so. Drinking to make emotional pain go away is a problem, and Luke has been causing Kate a lot of emotional pain.  

I'm glad that other people see that Luke is admitting that he committed rape, if a sexual encounter happened the way he claims. In his desire to throw Kate under the bus, he is telling us more about his true nature. 

I still feel that if her drinking is as bad as Luke is making it seem, the cameras would have picked up more and the producers would have used that in the final edit.  I can understand that she might be drinking more due to the situation but the truth is somewhere between Luke's outrageous claims and her reactions to them. And frankly Kate has more credibility than Luke does.  The way he laid into her in the car was sickening. And then how mad he got when she had enough of him berating her and put in the headphones was so revealing. He hates not having control and when she put the headphones in because she was done, he was pissed that she removed that control. 

[Crazy Bird Lady]

Actually, many people who don't drink regularly (and their bodies aren't big to begin with) would be quite intoxicated after 4 glasses of wine. 

Kate, being rather small, probably was. 

[Soup333]

1 minute ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

Actually, many people who don't drink regularly (and their bodies aren't big to begin with) would be quite intoxicated after 4 glasses of wine. 

Kate, being rather small, probably was. 

Blackout drunk though? Kate drinks regularly. Luke said she told him it was “totally her” to have a glass of wine with dinner. She drank with her friend when she came over. She said she prefers wineglasses over Solo cups because she’s an adult. Four glasses of wine shouldn’t get her shitfaced. 

[Ohwell]

13 minutes ago, princelina said:

Also - when Luke referred to Kate being "blackout drunk" he also mentioned 4 glasses of wine.  I don't think that's enough to make a regular drinker blackout drunk - I had 4 glasses of wine on Monday at a birthday party.  So I felt that was just more gaslighting from him.

Everyone's tolerance for alcohol is different.  I'd be "blackout" drunk after two glasses.  It also depends on the type of wine. 

[Ohwell]

Oh wow.  Now Luke is a rapist?  "Poor widdle Kate" was too out of it to consent?  I thought she was the one who initiated the sex.

[aphroditewitch]

Tolerance  varies but a regular drinker would be need to drink more glasses of wine to get blackout drunk. If someone is regularly  drinking so much that they have a problem, four glasses is not going to do it. 

[aphroditewitch]

Just now, Ohwell said:

Oh wow.  Now Luke is a rapist?  "Poor widdle Kate" was too out of it to consent?  I thought she was the one who initiated the sex.

A drunk person cannot consent. It  is not even about Kate, it is about the legal definition. It is why there has been a push to make sure that college students understand what consent really means. 

[Starlight925]

4 glasses of wine = 1 bottle.

That's a lot.

I mean, I can't stand Luke, but to drink a bottle in one evening is a lot for anyone.

[Neurochick]

51 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Oh wow.  Now Luke is a rapist?  "Poor widdle Kate" was too out of it to consent?  I thought she was the one who initiated the sex.

That's what I don't get.  She told Dr. Pepper that Luke initiated it, but it sounded like she said something else to Jasmine, and to Luke when they were in the car.  

"Blackout drunk" doesn't necessarily mean you've passed out.  You can be conscious and still in a blackout.  It's like you're there but you're not there.  So the next morning, you can be like, "what did I do last night?"  But to everybody who saw you, you looked like you were having a good time.

I've known people who got married/drove/went to work/went to school/had sex/cooked/washed clothes in blackouts.  

Edited March 20, 2019 by Neurochick

[lu1535]

1 hour ago, KateHearts said:

That said, his super condescending look (like a father getting ready to chide his toddler) whenever she wants to discuss a serious topic just turns my stomach. 

Yes, this. I got the willies and flashbacks all at the same time. Yuck!

[ShowFan]

3 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

think that Stephanie attributes a lot of AJ's stress to filming the show

Until the show is over and he starts getting stress from other things in life. And until he starts to get mad with her or at her

[TwirlyGirly]

13 hours ago, ChristmasJones said:

Just throwing this out there --

Is it possible that Kate did get overtly drunk on the honeymoon and put excessive pressure on Luke to have sex?

And since this is a total stranger, it was a major, major turn off to him.

But he didn't want to admit this openly (to experts/etc), and it made him feel highly ambivalent to her, so he just kept acting strange and hot/cold toward her.

Then, despite this, at other times when she came on to him, he gave in because he wanted to have sex (not because of feelings for her), and he knows this is wrong, so he told her not to tell anyone.

I guess my point is..... could there be a tiny kernel of truth about what he is saying?

Up until this episode, I would have totally disagreed with you. But now...

Did anyone else catch in the car convo, Luke mentioning Kate had gotten blackout drunk? Kate did not disagree that happened.

Blackouts usually happen to those who drink heavily and frequently. After hearing Luke say that, I'm really beginning to wonder if there's more to Kate's drinking than she admits.

Also (and this is coming from experience - my ex-husband was an alcoholic who went through residential treatment) - when people first begin drinking their tolerance increases. The more they drink and the longer they drink their tolerance decreases. So, if Kate really does have a problem, and she's been drinking heavily for a few years, it's entirely possible for her to have reached a point at which she gets extremely drunk after only a couple of drinks or a few glasses of wine (also, women tend to have a lower tolerance for alcohol than men, and the smaller you are/the less you weigh also affects tolerance).

12 hours ago, ChristmasJones said:

<snip>

As for Kate, I also wonder if one of the reasons she is not more forceful about the whole topic is that maybe she does become an asshole when she drinks. This does happen. People can seem one way and then once they get enough alcohol in them, another side can come out. Some are funny/affectionate/sloppy drunks, and some can get aggressive and mean.

----

This now reminds me of a trip I once took with some college friends, a few years after college. We came back to the hotel after a night of heavy drinking and one of these ladies turned into a demon - screaming and trying to attack us. The other friend and I ended up locked in the bathroom to protect ourselves from her.  I had never seen her act like that before and if you had asked me before that night if she was capable, I would have said you're crazy. 

<snip>

Yep. My ex-husband fell into the "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" category. Nobody we knew believed it when I told them until one day they saw it for themselves. So yeah, it's definitely a thing.

Insofar as our not being shown Kate drinking to excess or being drunk, remember - the editing is done after filming is complete.

They have hundreds - if not thousands - of hours of film to sift through. That's when the decisions to create story lines for each couple are made, and what those story lines will be.

Editing choices are made to support/advance those story lines. IOW, the decision not to show any support for Luke's claims Kate drinks to excess was probably deliberate, to make it appear Kate is the innocent and very naive, and Luke is just a royal gaslighting jerk.

The truth may lie somewhere in the middle.

"Reality" TV is not above throwing participants under the bus and manipulating the audience to achieve its goals.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

...So IF Kate really drank 4 glasses of wine in a row one night on their honeymoon, one of these things should be true: 

1) She was not a "regular drinker" and with 4 glasses, she was drunk enough to be too intoxicated to consent to sex. 

OR:

2) She was a "regular drinker" and with 4 glasses, she may have been very 'relaxed,' but she was not too intoxicated to remember what happened  the morning after. 

Does that sum it up?

[Ohwell]

3 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

Insofar as our not being shown Kate drinking to excess or being drunk, remember - the editing is done after filming is complete.

They have hundreds - if not thousands - of hours of film to sift through. That's when the decisions to create story lines for each couple are made, and what those story lines will be.

Editing choices are made to support/advance those story lines. IOW, the decision not to show any support for Luke's claims Kate drinks to excess was probably deliberate, to make it appear Kate is the innocent and very naive, and Luke is just a royal gaslighting jerk.

The truth may lie somewhere in the middle.

"Reality" TV is not above throwing participants under the bus and manipulating the audience to achieve its goals.

Exactly.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

OH --and either way, Luke wanted Kate to keep the whole thing secret!  

[Jeanne222]

Well what an interesting show!  I love this season!  I'm even watching Jamie do her thing!

I think Luke is being a gentleman and not telling Kate is an alcoholic!  That's why he looks so angry and she keeps telling her side and getting sympathy!  She probably needs to go into a rehab.  Living with an alcoholic has to be horrible.

Last evening she looked terrible.  All of a sudden I thought is she pregnant?  Drinking and pregnant?

Luke looked like an organizer and great cook in the kitchen. I was most impressed with him while Kate continued her whine with Jasmine and anybody else that would listen!  I think Luke has gotten a bad wrap!

Kate will stay Luke will leave!

Jasmine needs to get her man to the doctor.  Thyroid, iron deficiency anemia?  Something is medically wrong with a young man sleeping all the time and no sex drive!

Jasmine and Will will say their goodbyes!

Tj has some real anger issues and when they talked to either Dr pepper or Jessica one said once the show is over his anger could turn from the producers to Stephanie.  I have noticed she's brought that up several times and it worries her.

Tj will stay Stephanie will go!

Kristine and Keith.  Their trying.  I think they like each other but I don't think he's the producer she asked for.  She wants a guy with money, status and a workout guy!  She found not get or find that on her own!  Will she settle for Keith?

Kristine will say goodbye.  Keith will stay!

[Ohwell]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that any man being married to Kate would come off looking like an asshole.  She's got those innocent-looking eyes and that vulnerable, childlike manner which would lead one to think she couldn't possibly be making shit up.  

I'm actually Team Luke now, and I ain't ashamed to admit it. ; )

[Ilovepie]

At this point, I have no idea what the real story is between Luke and Kate, but I am at the point I just don't care anymore. I can't stand either one of them.

I hope AJ & Steph stay together at least past decision day to see how it goes when the cameras and production are gone. Long term, who knows? He might be eating alone again if he can't get his temper under control.

I think Keith and Kristine are cute. I really hope they stay together. I liked their champagne glass hot tub convo.

Will and Jasmine are mismatched. They need to divorce. Nothing else to say there.

Am I right in seeing that next week is not decisions? We really still have TWO weeks left of this garbage?!? I seriously need a break from this show......

[aphroditewitch]

If the show is editing out footage of Kate being drunk or passed out, then why keep in footage of Luke bringing it up. That doesn't make sense and that is why there is a disconnect. And Luke is all over the place in what he says. He claims he cares about her but then we see him berate her in the car. It was gross. As to why she didn't defend herself, who knows. Maybe she was too stunned by what he said, maybe she did and it was removed from the edit, or maybe she couldn't defend herself. We don't know. But the way he was berating her in the car, that looked like something they had been through before and it was not ok. 

[aphroditewitch]

I don't think Kristine and Keith will make it. He is still learning how to take care of himself and eventually she is going to be tired of that. I think there are also some trust issues with Keith. I still find it sketchy that he had nude pictures of his ex on his phone. 

[Lusterleaf]

So let's say that editing made it appear that Luke was the villain and Kate was a saint, and she's really an alcoholic. Then, I don't get why Luke would constantly say to Kate that he doesn't want a divorce and he wants to make it work.

[Kiss my mutt]

AJ is the type to get needier once they have kids and will put Stephanie in the position of choosing between his needs and the kids. It’s a red flag that she’s already making excuses for him.  It reminds me of women who justify their partners’ abuse or bad behavior on their stress at work or other issues that will always come up. It’s like saying, “oh, once things settle down out work, it will get better” or “it’s just the stress from the move” and so forth. 

Remaining childless for awhile longer is better than having a child with a tantrum monkey. 

If Kate is such a drunk, why haven’t other people commented on this. I would assume they would have footage unless it doesn’t fit into the narrative they’ve created. 

[Jeanne222]

22 minutes ago, Lusterleaf said:

So let's say that editing made it appear that Luke was the villain and Kate was a saint, and she's really an alcoholic. Then, I don't get why Luke would constantly say to Kate that he doesn't want a divorce and he wants to make it work.

My guess is that Kate is a lovely woman when she's not drinking.  He wants that woman!

[TwirlyGirly]

19 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

If the show is editing out footage of Kate being drunk or passed out, then why keep in footage of Luke bringing it up. That doesn't make sense and that is why there is a disconnect. And Luke is all over the place in what he says. He claims he cares about her but then we see him berate her in the car. It was gross. As to why she didn't defend herself, who knows. Maybe she was too stunned by what he said, maybe she did and it was removed from the edit, or maybe she couldn't defend herself. We don't know. But the way he was berating her in the car, that looked like something they had been through before and it was not ok. 

Because Luke is perhaps the designated villain, and by keeping the footage of him constantly bringing it up it appears he's exaggerating?

17 minutes ago, Lusterleaf said:

So let's say that editing made it appear that Luke was the villain and Kate was a saint, and she's really an alcoholic. Then, I don't get why Luke would constantly say to Kate that he doesn't want a divorce and he wants to make it work.

Because alcoholism can be treated (IF the individual recognizes they have a problem and are willing to do the lifetime work necessary to stay sober)?

Remember, too, Kate said Luke has become more affectionate with her. But we haven't seen that, either. It's possible we're only being shown the worst aspects of Luke, and the best of Kate. 

IDK, really, except to say on Reality TV generally, things are often not as they appear to be.

[Jeanne222]

10 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

AJ is the type to get needier once they have kids and will put Stephanie in the position of choosing between his needs and the kids. It’s a red flag that she’s already making excuses for him.  It reminds me of women who justify their partners’ abuse or bad behavior on their stress at work or other issues that will always come up. It’s like saying, “oh, once things settle down out work, it will get better” or “it’s just the stress from the move” and so forth. 

Remaining childless for awhile longer is better than having a child with a tantrum monkey. 

If Kate is such a drunk, why haven’t other people commented on this. I would assume they would have footage unless it doesn’t fit into the narrative they’ve created. 

Bingo!

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

If Kate is such a drunk, why haven’t other people commented on this. I would assume they would have footage unless it doesn’t fit into the narrative they’ve created. 

Because she's not a drunk.  I don't believe that at all.

The other newlyweds gravitate toward Kate over Luke... the therapists have been doing their damnedest to give her outs of this marriage... Kate's friends feel bad about what she got stuck with...   Luke's friends seemed to be sympathizing with Kate.. shit, even Luke's mother knew his marriage wouldn't work out (before they even knew Kate.)

[LellePCC]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

They need to get divorced.

I was confused.  Kate told Dr. Pepper that Luke initiated the sex, but didn't she tell Jasmine that she initiated it?  It sounded like she was telling Jasmine something different.  

I don't know if Kate has a drinking problem, my senses tell me she does, which makes Luke even more horrible because Luke should have gone to the experts privately and told them so, then asked for a divorce.  Right now, he's using Kate's drinking against her which is wrong.  

I like Keith because I feel that he's willing to change.  He knows he's been pampered by the women in his family and he does want to grow up and change.  I think Kristine may think she can do better, but when you think about it  she might not be able to do better.

I read this book, and he does have a point.

I mean, I don’t like to jump to conclusions, but I always get nervous when someone’s initial response to concerns about a drinking problem is “but you drink a lot too”. 

[aphroditewitch]

4 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

Because Luke is perhaps the designated villain, and by keeping the footage of him constantly bringing it up it appears he's exaggerating?

Because alcoholism can be treated (IF the individual recognizes they have a problem and are willing to do the lifetime work necessary to stay sober)?

Remember, too, Kate said Luke has become more affectionate with her. But we haven't seen that, either. It's possible we're only being shown the worst aspects of Luke, and the best of Kate. 

IDK, really, except to say on Reality TV generally, things are often not as they appear to be.

But as Lusterleaf brought up, why the back and forth? Why continue to bring up the alleged drinking and then later pretend to be caring? Why berate her and then act like this is a person you want to be married to? It doesn't make sense. Even if the show was keeping footage of her drunk hidden, there is a lot that doesn't add up with Luke's claims and behavior towards Kate. 

8 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

My guess is that Kate is a lovely woman when she's not drinking.  He wants that woman!

No he doesn't. We have seen him repeatedly bring her down on screen when she is clearly not drunk. He doesn't want  anything to do with her but also seems to really enjoy ripping her apart. 

[Soup333]

21 minutes ago, Lusterleaf said:

So let's say that editing made it appear that Luke was the villain and Kate was a saint, and she's really an alcoholic. Then, I don't get why Luke would constantly say to Kate that he doesn't want a divorce and he wants to make it work.

Also very curious that he would say stuff to the camera about them being on the upswing and how they were only going to get better from here and things like that. He also was really very confused about her rating herself so low but shouldn't he have known or guessed it was the drinking?

They were very affectionate with each other during the mini-moon (I hate this word btw). She had her arms around him when AJ was drunk and he came in the house and hugged her. I'm not sure if Luke and/or Kate was just "on" for the other couples or the cameras.

I don't trust Luke and I'll never be on his team even if video of Kate reveals her to be every bit of the lush he claims her to be. Even if he is telling the truth about being pressured into sex with her on the honeymoon that doesn't excuse the other times UNLESS Kate flat out lied to Dr. Pepper about him initiating things and then running off to sulk in the corner. 

I don't disbelieve Kate but there's more than enough evidence to make it plain that Luke isn't the one for her and I don't understand why she's still there. 

[Elizzikra]

Quote

I think Luke is being a gentleman and not telling Kate is an alcoholic!  That's why he looks so angry and she keeps telling her side and getting sympathy!  She probably needs to go into a rehab.  Living with an alcoholic has to be horrible.

I totally disagree. I have no reason at all to believe that Kate is an alcoholic or even a problem drinker. I don't think she needs a rehab - I think she needs a divorce.

Quote

Blackouts usually happen to those who drink heavily and frequently. After hearing Luke say that, I'm really beginning to wonder if there's more to Kate's drinking than she admits.

Not necessarily. Plenty of people have an episode or two of blacking out and don't necessarily drink heavily or frequently the rest of the time.

Quote

Also (and this is coming from experience - my ex-husband was an alcoholic who went through residential treatment) - when people first begin drinking their tolerance increases. The more they drink and the longer they drink their tolerance decreases. So, if Kate really does have a problem, and she's been drinking heavily for a few years, it's entirely possible for her to have reached a point at which she gets extremely drunk after only a couple of drinks or a few glasses of wine (also, women tend to have a lower tolerance for alcohol than men, and the smaller you are/the less you weigh also affects tolerance).

I have also been around alcoholism and this is the exact opposite of my experience. Tolerance increases as alcoholism progresses - to the point that an alcoholic can be walking, talking and seeming "normal" after ingesting an amount that would put an "average" person passed out on the floor. Body weight and composition also play a part. An end stage alcoholic with a heavily damaged liver might not be able to handle even a drink or two but Kate would have many more visible issues and other health problems if she was that far along.

Bottom line - the only suggestion we have that Kate has any sort of issue with alcohol is that Luke says he does. But pressed, the first time, to provide examples, he could not. He did not provide any sort of answer about why he purchases alcohol for a supposedly "alcoholic" wife and he didn't respond to Kate's questions about his own episode of drinking to the point of vomiting and being "too sick" to come home. He deflects all of her questions about any other aspect of their relationship. He is not a nice guy trying to help his addicted wife; he's an asshole who treats his wife badly, refuses to take any responsibility for it and tries his best to keep her from talking to anyone but him so that she can't get an outside perspective on their dynamic. He is manipulative and devious and I don't trust him in the slightest. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Elizzikra

[Neurochick]

32 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

I don't trust Luke and I'll never be on his team even if video of Kate reveals her to be every bit of the lush he claims her to be. Even if he is telling the truth about being pressured into sex with her on the honeymoon that doesn't excuse the other times UNLESS Kate flat out lied to Dr. Pepper about him initiating things and then running off to sulk in the corner. 

I don't disbelieve Kate but there's more than enough evidence to make it plain that Luke isn't the one for her and I don't understand why she's still there. 

I don't think either of of them is telling the truth.  I think they should get divorced because they talk in circles.  Did Luke initiate sex or did Kate?  Did Luke say he was disgusted with Kate, after sex or was he disgusted with himself?  Why should I believe either of them?  

Luke comes off like a jerk, Kate comes off like a dim bulb who wants to stay with the jerk.  Maybe they do deserve each other.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Neurochick

[Retired at last]

I don't understand Kate or the role she is supposed to play, but she looks genuinely sad and depressed. She still initiates sex with Luke, and then he also initiates (and gets weird and leaves the room). So, apparently, they are both trying to do this, but it appears (from editing) that it only happens when Luke initiates. She didn't want to tell the girls because she knows everything about their sex life is abnormal and she is ashamed. She also knows what kind of picture she has painted of Luke, and the girls are all supportive of her and seem to hate Luke. So, she is unsure that she would still have their support if she admits that she has sex with him - even after he has been so nasty to her. She is also the one to hang on him and wrap her arms around him and he "lets her" so that she can feel connected.

I worry about Steph when she said she didn't know what the future with AJ's frustration would be 5 or 10 YEARS down the road. YEARS???? She needs to be worried about 5-10 days or weeks!

[Captain Asshat]

Here's the thing, Kate and Luke prove to me that the show doesn't truly vet participants, and that they are selected and matched purely for drama purposes. 

Kate should never have been selected for this show. If these "experts" or the vetting process were worth a damn, they would have easily discovered that she lacks self esteem, is easily manipulated, and has issues that should have either disqualified her as a participant or shown her to be the absolute worst match for Luke. She has issues, and I can't fault her for that. Would I be friends with her? Likely not. Is she a bad person? Likely not. Does she need some help? Most definitely. 

Luke should never have been selected for this show. First and foremost, he stated that he is such a private person. That, in and of itself, is either a lie or immediate grounds for someone to say, "Dude, this is soooo not the thing for you, then." Next, if these "experts" or the vetting process were worth a damn, they would have easily seen that the man cannot make eye contact when speaking to someone, tends to default to nervous laughter and backpedaling when questioned about things, and is insultingly dismissive of people who he perceives as less than his lofty perception of himself. He has issues that I can't fault him for. He can get help for that. Now, I can fault him for being a dick to compensate for those issues. It's not that hard to avoid being a dick, much less being a dick to someone you can see is affected negatively by it. 

I never tuned into this show with the expectation that these would be healthy, long lasting marriages. They're gimmick marriages for entertainment. With these two? I am not entertained. At all. 

[qtpye]

15 hours ago, Yeah No said:

She keeps telling the camera she's worried that after decision day he'll continue to act out when under stress.  I was like, "Gee, Stephanie, YA THINK?"  LOL, what makes her think he WON'T??  She may stay with him after decision day but I think they're ultimately doomed.  And that's sad.  She deserves better than to waste her time with "Baby Huey".  I noticed he was finally relaxing and not throwing a tantrum this time.  He really is such a baby.  Someone distract him with a rattle and he'll settle down!  🙄

AJ is starting to scare me a bit.

14 hours ago, Retired at last said:

But even after they have had sex, then he gets "weird" and leaves the room and has to be alone for whatever reason, so even when they do, it is not affectionate or loving. So, when he feels like being the good guy and tells her he will do it, she gets all happy and then he leaves. I was glad she kind of talked to him, but then when she agreed that he was right, I was furious! I am afraid I am done with her. Her monotone baby voice is so hard to take and she is just so insecure (with good reason), but if he tells her they are fine, then she gets all happy again and thinks she found her soulmate. I just hope that it is Kate who pulls the plug, but we all know it won't be and he will blame it on her drinking and she will take the blame.

I do feel sorry for Jasmine tonight and going forward. He still thinks there is time to take things slow and he said he would love to be in love with her. He just isn't there yet. 

I haven't seen the long preview for next week - it doesn't come on here for another 30 minutes. But, after seeing the edits from even what they have been showing all week, like the conversation in the car, it really doesn't matter.

How many more weeks do we have?

7 hours ago, Mazzy said:

I was thinking this EXACT same thing! I think people are SO wanting Luke to be the ONLY asshole in the relationship that they miss the actual words these people are saying when the camera is on them.

To me it sounds like what is really happening is that Kate, who said out of her own mouth, on camera, "I try to initiate things" but I get the impression after their car convo that they way Kate "initiates things" is like a high school girl - she is in the mood/wants her needs met (yes people, women like sex too) but she's too immature, mousy, and shy to just say "wanna mess around?" so instead she gets shit-drunk and then hangs on Luke until enough blood has been redirected that he's like 'f-it, at least she's a warm wet hole, and she clearly doesn't care that I don't like her' (so basically his reaction is equally high school boy in nature). But then when it's done he's ashamed because he doesn't like her and maybe, just MAYBE there is some teeny tiny bit of human being inside him that feels wrong and like he's taking advantage (because he is) even though she was hanging all over him. I now think this is why Luke keeps bringing up this fake drinking problem - because Kate IS always drunk and hanging on him to get him to perform fake-intimacy (sex) to make her feel wanted. I think he knows that her drinking isn't the result of a real alcoholic drinking problem, but he DOES always see her drunk and so he can point to that and it relieves his guilt a little about his internal conflict between being a 'bigger man' and going and sleeping on the couch/ignoring her advances vs. giving in and taking the enjoyment of sex being offered.

Also - did everyone jsut see "shock" on Jasmine's face when Kate told her about the sex? Because that wasn't what I read at all!! What I saw was hatefire-level jealousy! I saw instant jealousy that turned to almost just as instant "jealous rage" that she was the only one no one wanted to have sex with.
 

It is totally confusing what the hell is going on between these two. Luke obviously thought he was being really clever by keeping things off camera but there is no privacy on a reality show that literally marries strangers. There is always a participant who thinks they can game the system and fail.

5 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Hysterical description!  And luv me some Oliver Twist references...I was in Oliver! in high school...good times, good times.

The problem is that by not speaking up about it at the time (e.g, disagreeing up front with the request to keep a secret) and by not standing up for her right to discuss their business with other people (they are, after all, on a show that is being filmed), she is giving tacit agreement with his way of doing things.

Since it looks like Humble Opinion is out for now, can someone else do a recap?

She also was talking with one of the girls, and was speculating about whether he'd do better once the cameras were gone, and the stress was gone, and I thought to myself, "Honey, if it isn't the stress of the cameras, it will be the stress of the shower caddy, or from you going away and he has to eat BY HIMSELF for one meal, or from you trying to make a suggestion while he's driving."  And that's because the stress is not just genuinely in the situation itself (like the cameras), but in AJ's thought processing.

The fact that Luke looks like Fagin and Kate thinks he is so sexy makes me think a group of male strippers should go with a Charles Dickens theme. “Ladies, please welcome to the stage a man who has more than just a big wallet....Ebenezer Scrooge!”

4 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

@ChristmasJones, I wondered if Kate got "blackout drunk" on the honeymoon, had sex with Luke and then didn't remember a thing the next morning?  Maybe that turned him off?  

Either way, while I still think Luke is a POS, it did concern me that when he mentioned her getting blackout drunk, she didn't respond.   That makes me think she is indeed getting blackout drunk, which is very worrisome.  Was she doing that pre-marriage or is this a symptom of being in this marriage? 

I feel for Jasmine and Will (at least today) because I see both sides.  Jasmine wants to be physically intimate with Will because he's her husband.  Will, despite being married to Jasmine, wants to get to know each other better before getting physical.  Both are right.  I do think they like each other; they do butt heads on the intimacy issue and financial roles but otherwise, seem okay together.  Strangely, either decision - - staying together or splitting up - - would be appropriate.

I think Keith and Kristine and A.J. and Stephanie should stay together on D-Day.   Doesn't mean they should stay together forever, or will, but at this point, there is nothing that should make them think they should call an end to it pronto.   While I do think that A.J. is easily testy and moody, that is probably exacerbated by the cameras and crew being present.   Stay together and see how he is for a few weeks/months.  The only reason I could conceive at this point for Keith and Kristine not to stay together would be the issue over children - - Kristine obviously is not looking to have kids in the very near future.  If she's willing to deal with his schooling for the next few years, I think they're a solid match.  He's clearly infatuated with her (if he's not ready to say "love" yet) and he has gone outside of his comfort zone for her to cook.    

He's also a self-professed introvert, who is married to more of an extrovert and (right now at least) surrounded by a film crew.  I did understand his need to take a nap while on the mini-moon, with 3 other couples in what looked to be a relatively small house.

I think Jas and Will traded places attraction wise. I think at first he was a little more into her than she was into him but now that is switched. On unfiltered Will seemed much more lively than he has been with Jas. On a shallow note, Jas is a nice looking tall statuesque woman and Will kind of looks puny next to him. On unfiltered he looked like a giant next to tiny Kristine and Stephanie 

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

They need to get divorced.

I was confused.  Kate told Dr. Pepper that Luke initiated the sex, but didn't she tell Jasmine that she initiated it?  It sounded like she was telling Jasmine something different.  

I don't know if Kate has a drinking problem, my senses tell me she does, which makes Luke even more horrible because Luke should have gone to the experts privately and told them so, then asked for a divorce.  Right now, he's using Kate's drinking against her which is wrong.  

I like Keith because I feel that he's willing to change.  He knows he's been pampered by the women in his family and he does want to grow up and change.  I think Kristine may think she can do better, but when you think about it  she might not be able to do better.

I read this book, and he does have a point.

I am a woman of color that grew up in Atlanta. There are a lot of amazing women out there who do not meet a good match because the odds are simply not in their favor.

3 hours ago, pdlinda said:

I have this LASTING impression of Luke's mother when she met with Kate.  She had a controlling, "managerial" style and coldness that made me wonder how Luke has developed his beliefs and feelings about women.  I believe that mother would always be a dominant force in ANY relationship (male and/or female) Luke is involved with at any time.  

I also wondered about his "profession."  They ID him as a "civil engineer" but he runs a dating service?  I wonder if he is or ever has been employed as a "civil engineer."  

To say that I'm horrified at the abuse, phoniness (pretense with the hipster "hat"), and manipulative ways of Luke would be a gross understatement!!!

I do not know why a Civil Engineer is so desperate for money. I know several that make well within six figures.

[aphroditewitch]

19 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I have also been around alcoholism and this is the exact opposite of my experience. Tolerance increases as alcoholism progresses - to the point that an alcoholic can be walking, talking and seeming "normal" after ingesting an amount that would put an "average" person passed out on the floor. Body weight and composition also play a part. An end stage alcoholic with a heavily damaged liver might not be able to handle even a drink or two but Kate would have many more visible issues and other health problems if she was that far along.

Bottom line - the only suggestion we have that Kate has any sort of issue with alcohol is that Luke says he does. But pressed, the first time, to provide examples, he could not. He did not provide any sort of answer about why he purchases alcohol for a supposedly "alcoholic" wife and he didn't respond to Kate's questions about his own episode of drinking to the point of vomiting and being "too sick" to come home. He deflects all of her questions about any other aspect of their relationship. He is not a nice guy trying to help his addicted wife; he's an asshole who treats his wife badly, refuses to take any responsibility for it and tries his best to keep her from talking to anyone but him so that she can't get an outside perspective on their dynamic. He is manipulative and devious and I don't trust him in the slightest. 

I agree. As I mentioned in another thread, i have a sibling who is an alcoholic and nothing I have seen so far has sent up red flags for me about Kate although I've seen several for Luke. Again that could be editing but certain things that you notice with alcoholics and people who are close to them are absent here. First, Luke was way too eager to speak about the topic and he brought it up to producers not the other way around and since that time he has used that statement like a club during arguments with Kate. Usually friends or relatives are in denial, I was in denial at first about my sister and it took time for me to call her an alcoholic.  Then Luke has apparently repeatedly given her alcohol is a red flag about him. If you are genuinely concerned about another person's drinking, you don't do that. If anything, you find yourself hiding alcohol from them or just dumping out anything you find in the house. Then you have his constant accusations about various people, AJ, Keith, and Kate. While AJ might just have a problem and it was actually AJ's own statement on the day when he and Stephanie were deciding where to eat and he said something about not wanting to go to a bar because he didn't want to end up drinking, that made me wonder about him. As far as the others go especially Keith, the accusation from Luke was very disturbing. It seems that whenever Luke feels he needs to put someone down, accusing them of a drinking problem is his go-to insult. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by aphroditewitch

[discoprincessthe2]

17 hours ago, scruffy73 said:

What kind of asshole leaves ANY WOMAN to carry her own luggage!?!?

17 hours ago, linleyphd said:

Luke can't even be gentleman enough to help Kate upstairs with her luggage, Ugh

Someone pointed out on another board that Luke didn't help Kate with her luggage when they had left Philly for the min-moon either.

15 hours ago, krbr51 said:

Ugh.  I would really love to see Kate get angry at Luke.  As soon as she did, he would run.  Guaranteed he can't handle it.  

So let me see if I have this right.  She drinks.  And anytime she drinks...ever, it's a turn-off for him.  But he sleeps with her anyway.  Then, because he is so repulsed with her drinking, whenever it occurred, he runs away.  For multiple hours.  Oh, and nobody is allowed to know.  

But she's the "bad guy" for asking for help.  

During Unfiltered both Pepper and Jasmine looked like they could have punched him.  More than once!!

If the sex were a one-time thing, I may let Luke slide. Multiple times? That's a choice, and I have to side-eye him for that.

12 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

Isn't Kate's being drunk on the honeymoon a hypothetical? 

Besides which,  Luke's comments on Kate's drinking cannot be his ultimate basis for lack of attraction to his bride.  He was turned off at the altar,  and Kate surely wasn't snockered then. 

I'm coming around to the notion that Luke is gay. Here's a man who has a BUSINESS dealing with single women looking for mates,  and he couldn't find a suitable girlfriend! Or maybe he didn't know how to,  how to approach a woman,  how to court her,  how to be romantic and/or seductive---with a female. 

Consider this: Patti Stanger from Millionaire Matchmaker sets up other people, but she has yet to make it down the aisle herself. (I doubt she's gay.) 

8 hours ago, Mazzy said:

I was thinking this EXACT same thing! I think people are SO wanting Luke to be the ONLY asshole in the relationship that they miss the actual words these people are saying when the camera is on them.

To me it sounds like what is really happening is that Kate, who said out of her own mouth, on camera, "I try to initiate things" but I get the impression after their car convo that they way Kate "initiates things" is like a high school girl - she is in the mood/wants her needs met (yes people, women like sex too) but she's too immature, mousy, and shy to just say "wanna mess around?" so instead she gets shit-drunk and then hangs on Luke until enough blood has been redirected that he's like 'f-it, at least she's a warm wet hole, and she clearly doesn't care that I don't like her' (so basically his reaction is equally high school boy in nature). But then when it's done he's ashamed because he doesn't like her and maybe, just MAYBE there is some teeny tiny bit of human being inside him that feels wrong and like he's taking advantage (because he is) even though she was hanging all over him. I now think this is why Luke keeps bringing up this fake drinking problem - because Kate IS always drunk and hanging on him to get him to perform fake-intimacy (sex) to make her feel wanted. I think he knows that her drinking isn't the result of a real alcoholic drinking problem, but he DOES always see her drunk and so he can point to that and it relieves his guilt a little about his internal conflict between being a 'bigger man' and going and sleeping on the couch/ignoring her advances vs. giving in and taking the enjoyment of sex being offered.

Also - did everyone jsut see "shock" on Jasmine's face when Kate told her about the sex? Because that wasn't what I read at all!! What I saw was hatefire-level jealousy! I saw instant jealousy that turned to almost just as instant "jealous rage" that she was the only one no one wanted to have sex with.
 

If he were really bothered about the "drunk" sex and wanted to avoid it, he could conveniently leave the apartment for hours at a time...like he did at 8:00 AM on the day of the one-month anniversary. 🤨

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

They need to get divorced.

I was confused.  Kate told Dr. Pepper that Luke initiated the sex, but didn't she tell Jasmine that she initiated it?  It sounded like she was telling Jasmine something different.  

I don't know if Kate has a drinking problem, my senses tell me she does, which makes Luke even more horrible because Luke should have gone to the experts privately and told them so, then asked for a divorce.  Right now, he's using Kate's drinking against her which is wrong.  

I like Keith because I feel that he's willing to change.  He knows he's been pampered by the women in his family and he does want to grow up and change.  I think Kristine may think she can do better, but when you think about it  she might not be able to do better.

I read this book, and he does have a point.

Once Luke dropped that tea in front of the cameras, I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, there may have been a kernel of truth to the claims that Kate has a drinking problem. However, when called to the carpet about it, he backed off. Kate was even shown initiating a discussion about getting divorced, and HE was the one who declined. Why? That makes no sense.

[calpurnia99]

Will is not into Jasmine because he is a catch and she isn't. 

[Jeanne222]

9 minutes ago, calpurnia99 said:

Will is not into Jasmine because he is a catch and she isn't. 

Will might be something if he would just wake up!  Something's wrong with him!

[DrewPaul2010]

19 hours ago, PupCal said:

Seriously. This is fucking terrifying to watch.

I thought that was why we watch it...like pulling up a chair at a four car pile up.

[Mercolleen]

Not a fan of looking at Keith and Kristine's feet in the champagne glass.

[DrewPaul2010]

18 hours ago, OnTime said:

Gosh, this season is still so boring!

It is finally decision day next week, when they will all decide to stay married because of the contract?

We all have a decision this episode...whether to watch another season.

[discoprincessthe2]

36 minutes ago, DrewPaul2010 said:

We all have a decision this episode...whether to watch another season.

I'm out!

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

...And yes, Kate may actually have a "drinking problem," although I don't think she considers it so. Drinking to make emotional pain go away is a problem, and Luke has been causing Kate a lot of emotional pain.  

I think there is a big difference between having a drinking problem and temporary drinking during a very unusual and stressful event in one's life.  I am basically a tea totaler but once when life was extremely stressful I would have a few glasses of wine every night.  When the stressful situation was over, so were the glasses of wine.  I don't believe a word out of Puke's lying mouth and I can't believe people are actually taking him seriously.  That's just what he wants people to do so he looks good and she looks bad.  If she really had a drinking problem I'm sure the show would have made a thing about it, sending over one or the other experts to call her on it the way they called Puke on his behavior.  Otherwise I still say it's BS.

When I was young I had every accusation in the book by guys that just wanted to make it my fault that they didn't like me.  I was too this, too that.  I was too old, too young, looking for commitment, not looking for commitment, too independent, too needy, whatever they could say to make it look like I'm at fault.  Puke's attitude tells me all I need to know about him.  He's a poser, an abuser and not a nice person so why on earth would I believe anything he said about Kate?

[Crazy Bird Lady]

34 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I think there is a big difference between having a drinking problem and temporary drinking during a very unusual and stressful event in one's life. 

I do too (and I mean no disrespect). 

But I do think it's a problem, if a person is developing the habit of "self-medicating" by turning to alcohol when life gets difficult. And that could be what's going on with Kate.

I mean, it's really not the same thing as having a 'double' after a long, stressful, frustrating day.

Kate has been living with the source of her stress, frustration, and emotional pain --so pretty much every day is a "bad day".

Quote

Puke's attitude tells me all I need to know about him.  He's a poser, an abuser and not a nice person so why on earth would I believe anything he said about Kate?

I don't take Puke at his word. And it's still far from clear what happened. But Kate did pretty much admit she had a lot of wine on one particular night of their honeymoon.

Dammit, if Kate was "blackout drunk"  that night, Puke should never have had sex with her in that state (--and it could certainly explain his secrecy)! 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Crazy Bird Lady