Leaving Neverland

[Brattinella]

10 minutes ago, Shakma said:

I thought the Bashir interview was great.  He was the only interviewer I had seen who didn't coddle Michael.  Everyone else just wanted to kiss the ass of the biggest superstar in the world, but Bashir asked real questions.  It's still a fascinating and disturbing watch, 16 years later.

That's a lovely photo of MJ with his nephew, BTW.  Nothing weird about posing with your nephew's bush, peeking out.  Nope, nothing weird, at all.

It appears that Nephew also has a bit of a stiffy.

[ruby24]

I just watched the Oprah special. I thought it was really good. It reminds how good at that kind of thing Oprah is. I'm glad that Wade and James are experiencing some public support for the first time ever, that really hit me when Wade said that. 

It also hit me that James said he still felt guilt about letting Michael down. If it's that hard for him it must be that way for some of the other victims.

And I do hope that this inspires some of the other victims to come forward, even to see that they will get support from others, that they're not alone, that they could stand together. Yes, there are angry, hateful people out there in his fans, but the more of these men who speak the harder it will be for society to ignore the truth imo. 

I also don't blame them at all for not being able to forgive their mothers. And the fact the Wade's mom can't bring herself to even hear the abuse itself really tells me that she has not taken full responsibility still for what she did.

I also wonder what James's mom's reaction was to hearing it. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by ruby24

[qtpye]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But a lot of this stuff doesn't just come down to being the primary caregiver. In some cases yes, it does--like when Joy was the person staying with Wade at Neverland, she's the one looking after him. Or when Stephanie is the one at home with Michael and James etc. In the US Joy was Wade's only parent so was 100% responsible for him.

But iirc James's dad was in those presidential suites too, the ones getting farther and farther away from where his son was sleeping with Michael with his dad's full knowledge. He would have had a say in whether he went on tour, whether he stayed in school. 

In Wade's case it seems like his dad probably didn't have the ability to control much in his life by the time Joy took the kids to the US, but he seemed to be the only one of the two dads that was putting up any objection. All authority James's father had was going to support Michael Jackson, it seemed, despite having the exact same information about him that his wife had. (I actually don't think either mother being the one with the job would have shielded her from blame, even if her husband was a stay-at-home dad. It's just automatic to expect that from the mom.)

12 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

I put more responsibility on whichever parent (mother or father) spent the most time looking after the child in the presence of Jackson and who made decisions such as bringing the child to his home to sleep with him at 1:30 a.m. If that was a joint parental decision, then both parents are responsible for it.  I had the impression that both Safechuck parents went along when James was touring with Jackson and they are therefore both to blame for allowing their son to sleep in the man's room instead of in the family suite, which, of course, is where their child should have been. I guess I'd hold Robson's dad more responsible if he hadn't clearly had some pretty serious mental issues that seem to have undermined his ability to parent effectively. Safechuck's father is shady as hell, as far as I'm concerned, for not appearing in the doc and letting his wife take all the heat.

In LaToya’s interview she said Michael Jackson was paying a “garbage man”, which was Jimmy’s father. I have a feeling Jimmy’s father loo loved the perks and the family got a lot more than a house. To me he is just as despicable as his wife. Like MJ, unfortunately, Robson’s father is not here to face the music.

[Growsonwalls]

7 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I just watched the Oprah special. I thought it was really good. It reminds how good at that kind of thing Oprah is. I'm glad that Wade and James are experiencing some public support for the first time ever, that really hit me when Wade said that. 

It also hit me that James said he still felt guilt about letting Michael down. If it's that hard for him it must be that way for some of the other victims.

And I do hope that this inspires some of the other victims to come forward, even to see that they will get support from others, that they're not alone, that they could stand together. Yes, there are angry, hateful people out there in his fans, but the more of these men who speak the harder it will be for society to ignore the truth imo. 

I also don't blame them at all for not being able to forgive their mothers. And the fact the Wade's mom can't bring herself to even hear the abuse itself really tells me that she has not taken full responsibility still for what she did.

I also wonder what James's mom's reaction was to hearing it. 

Sounds cold but they're just going to have to suck it up and deal with it. They failed spectacularly in their job as mothers to protect their children. No parents are perfect but they are shitty even on the Shitty Parents level. 

Another thing about Janet that made her more grounded was that she had talent independent of Michael, and wasn't as dependent on Michael for financial support. The others basically lived off Michael. 

[junemeatcleaver]

16 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I'm disappointed on the level of celebrity silence on this, especially after a lot of the vocal reaction to the R Kelly documentary. It really infuriates me that some of the same people who could condemn Kelly would be silent on this one. Why? Is it because MJ's just too big or is it because of who the victims are?  

I think some of it is because for a lot of people MJ felt like he was literally a part of their families, a huge part of their lives and childhoods.   I thought this essay did a decent job explaining what he meant to her and a lot of people in the 80s and 90s and why some people are silent despite believing Wade and James and their doubts about MJ they've carried for years.

The people who believe Jackson is innocent are willfully ignorant at this point.  Outside of MJ's kids, the people who are still fiercely defending Michael are deluding themselves imo.

[Cementhead]

12 hours ago, Mdoc said:

I don't think I'll ever be able to get adult James out of my head. I've never seen a grown man like that. It was like a scared little boy in a man's body. Scared, shameful, just so many things in those eyes. How anyone can question that I'll never believe. Watch the Oprah interview with the sound off and just LOOK at him. It's destroyed me a little bit. I never knew I could feel protective over someone I've never met before... 

Same.  I even rewound the very end of the interview a few times to re-watch Wade giving him a hug.  Which was a really weird thing to do but I had to do it for some reason.  You expressed it here perfectly.

[Simon Boccanegra]

I actually do think all of the Jackson sibs were above-average talents at singing and/or playing. It's pretty remarkable that that much musical talent was in one generation of one family. But Michael and Janet were lucky in their collaborators. They both separated themselves from the clan and broke through as adult solo artists with the help of first-rate producers. Michael's best albums were produced by Quincy Jones, who already had worked with so many legends, and his silky style proved a perfect match. Janet had Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, who had been part of Prince's Minneapolis-based network (before one of those acrimonious breaks that Prince so often had with collaborators), and they gave her a punchy, aggressive sound that really was something new and fresh in '86. They also wrote pretty much the entire Control album, and a lot of Rhythm Nation.  

Of course, it wasn't just good producers. Maybe those two had the most drive as well. Being a superstar means wanting it and being willing to give up a lot to have it. As others have noted, Rebbie, for one, was more family-oriented.  

Edited March 8, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[ruby24]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

In LaToya’s interview she said Michael Jackson was paying a “garbage man”, which was Jimmy’s father. I have a feeling Jimmy’s father loo loved the perks and the family got a lot more than a house. To me he is just as despicable as his wife. Like MJ, unfortunately, Robson’s father is not here to face the music.

Until this documentary I had not revisited that Latoya interview for so long, I had almost forgotten it existed. I had probably dismissed it because she had taken it back and has a such a reputation for instability, etc. But now, rediscovering it is pretty striking, because it had never really occurred to me that his family actually DID know what was going on with him this entire time. He had cut them off so much, I knew they were never at Neverland, that he was not particularly close to any of them after he'd bought that place and officially moved out of his mother's- the only time they were all reunited, ironically, was during his trial to show support for him (and then he bailed on them all again after that).

So I think I had assumed they had no real clue about all this and were just blindly supporting him because he was their brother/son but they hadn't seen anything. Now I think that's very much not the case, that they actively did know, like Latoya said, about the payoffs and about the families, and his mother essentially knew from way back that he was interested in young boys, in that way. Knowing that they knew for that long, what his problem was and what was really going on with him, is illuminating, because of how complicit they were. And despite never being at Neverland, they knew EXACTLY what that place was for. Their complicitness was all about money, all the time.

[Sharonana]

I don't have HBO and am tempted to get an add on to Hulu for the free week just to see this. I have always thought something was weird/off about MJ and am a firm believer that where there's smoke, there's fire. That Wendy Williams clip a few pages back pissed me off. I don't think for one second that Wade nor James are liars. What could they possibly have to gain from lying about this? I hope they both can find some peace in their lives now that they have lifted this terrible burden.

[Inquisitionist]

On 3/4/2019 at 2:16 PM, BitterApple said:

qtpye, I agree wholeheartedly about the mothers. I don't think they consciously traded their sons for money and fame, but they absolutely overlooked a lot of behavior that would've never been tolerated in real life. Imagine if it was these kids' soccer coaches or math teachers who wanted to have sleepovers and hold hands and play Nintendo in their childrens' bedrooms. They would've reported it in a heartbeat. 

Not sure what you mean by "in real life," that that may be a key to this -- it didn't feel like "real life" because of Michael's larger-than-life celebrity.

On 3/4/2019 at 7:55 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I am not a psychiatrist (I’m a lawyer), but I don’t think most people who abuse children are actually pedophiles (meaning a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children)- the numbers don’t make sense. I think most of these abusers are just sadistic people who like power and control and will go after an easy target (like the people who abuse mentally disabled adults- they do it because it’s easy to get away with it, not because they have no other sexual options). However I think Michael was actually a pedophile, which he is why he was so invested in his illusions. He had every resource to get himself help and keep himself away from children

Also not sure what you mean about the numbers not making sense.  Have you seen the movie Spotlight, about the Boston Globe's investigation into abuse by priests in Boston and Cardinal Law's outrageous actions to cover it up?  It's really excellent and portrays well through a variety of means how abuse is allowed to occur and then be covered up.  They quote the research of Richard Sipe, a former priest turned psychologist, who found that 6 percent of priests are pedophiles and that this is the same percentage as in the general population.  Six percent.  That's a lot of people.

On 3/5/2019 at 8:37 AM, Straycat80 said:

This documentary blew me away. Those poor boys. I was never a fan of Michael Jackson. I thought he was talented but weird. I was horrified after watching the Martin Bashir documentary, how could these mothers think it was ok to let their sons sleep in the same bed as a grown man? I think they were drew in by the fame and money.

Michael also had them completely convinced that he was NOT a grown man, but an overgrown child, an asexual being.

[AnnieHeights]

Y'all I finished the documentary and the Oprah interview after last night and I cannot comprehend how anyone could watch this and not believe these two young men.  James, especially.  He was just such a wounded little bird and my heart broke for him.  I am going to give some of my thoughts and probably not many of them will be different from what has already been said.

Actually the first one is a question.......was it ever said what happened to James's father? James's mother at the very least admitted she F'd up (and yes, she did!), Wade's mother was all about justification and I wholeheartedly agree with those of you who call BS on her husband telling her she did the right thing, how on earth could she utter those words?  I think Dan Reed did a really good job of having each person tell their story as if it were the day it was happening......I know it was creepy hearing the mother's tell their stories in this manner but it really (to me) gave perspective into how obviously infatuated they were with the trappings of wealth and fame at the time, I am not sure how I would have viewed them if they told it from a 20+ year removed angle.  I think it might have made them more empathetic if they were seething with rage at Michael but having them tell it in a 'real time' manner exposed their willful 'ignorance' (putting it kindly) to a much more truthful degree. 

Wade is obviously further along in his healing journey and I adored his wife.......he deserved a sunny, positive, protective, understanding partner.  I kind of went into this thinking he would not be a sympathetic person but I was very wrong.  I wish him nothing but the best life has to offer for the remainder of his.  He is talented in his own merit regardless if MJ had never came into his life.     

It was almost jarring hearing Joy speak how she viewed things and then flip to either Wade or his brother (the sister never really called her out on anything)......like, when Wade's wife wouldn't allow her to come to their home and Joy said she had never had any problems with any family members then cut to the brother talking about his anger for her for breaking up the family then not protecting Wade.  I really liked Wade's brother and I wish they would have shown his wife.  It was a little strange with Wade's family being Australian and Wade and his sister sounding anything but and the mother and brother with the strong accent. 

James still obviously has a long way to go and I pray he gets stronger as he goes......he seems SO fragile to the point I am genuinely worried about him.  I hope he stays off social media because from what little I have seen, there are many, many rabid MJ fans out there slamming them.  His wife was seemed to be everything I wrote about Wade's wife.  Both men had incredibly adorable kids.

I cannot think of anything I have watched in recent memory that was so truthful and so raw and so heartbreaking.  I have grown up on Michael Jackson and like his music and thought prior to this that I could separate the art from the artist but I just do not think I can.  I understand MJ had a messed up childhood but there was something so diabolical about him wrapped up in a vulnerable veneer......total wolf in sheep's clothing IMO.  He knew exactly what he was doing and knew it was wrong.

I love Oprah did the interview with an audience of victims......Like her or not (and I do) she has been a lifelong advocate for this exact thing and I commend her for endorsing the documentary and believing them.  I have read folks saying she did it for ratings.....I applaud her for using her celebrity and vast following to give an additional voice to this story.    

Dan Reed is a hero for not only getting this out there but for doing it the way he did.  

[IntrovertGal]

I finished watching part 2 of Leaving Neverland last night and it is truly one of the most upsetting and disturbing documentaries I‘ve ever seen. Part 1 was already heartbreaking, but part 2 was even more devastating. There is no doubt in my mind that Wade and James are telling the truth. The pain of what they have been through is written all over their faces. James especially just seems so fragile and broken. The scene in part 1 where he showed the jewellery Michael Jackson had given him (including a „wedding ring“ FFS) and his hands were shaking broke my heart. I commend Wade and James for being brave enough to speak out, knowing that they would face the backlash from delusional MJ super fans. One of the things that disgusted me the most while watching this documentary was the parents ‘complicity and gullibility, especially the mothers‘. They failed miserably in their most important job: protecting their children. I cannot believe how starstruck, greedy and clueless the mothers were (or so they claim), basically pimping out their sons for a nice hotel suite and other luxurious gifts MJ showered them with. And as truly revolting and horrifying as it is, I think the documentary did a great job in showing how a sexual predator like MJ groomed both his victims and their families. Buying the parents off, driving a wedge between the boys and their parents, telling the little boys they would all go to jail for life if anyone found out about the abuse, showering the boys with friendship and affection and then withholding such affection making the boys feel jealous of their competitors, telling these young boys that having sex was how you showed your love, etc. etc. - it‘s just all so sick. No wonder Wade and James struggle with the abuse to this day and that they have not forgiven their mothers. Personally, I‘m done with Michael Jackson for good. Enough is enough!

[spaceghostess]

3 hours ago, Cementhead said:

Same.  I even rewound the very end of the interview a few times to re-watch Wade giving him a hug.  Which was a really weird thing to do but I had to do it for some reason.  You expressed it here perfectly.

i completely understand this. That was the very long hug I sort of wished I could give him.

[Scarlett45]

37 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Also not sure what you mean about the numbers not making sense.  Have you seen the movie Spotlight, about the Boston Globe's investigation into abuse by priests in Boston and Cardinal Law's outrageous actions to cover it up?  It's really excellent and portrays well through a variety of means how abuse is allowed to occur and then be covered up.  They quote the research of Richard Sipe, a former priest turned psychologist, who found that 6 percent of priests are pedophiles and that this is the same percentage as in the general population.  Six percent.  That's a lot of people.

I meant the number of children abused and the percentage of children who’ve experienced abuse. I can believe that 6% of the population are actually pedophiles, and they have multiple victims, but if 1 in 4 children (so 25%) are abused in their life time (and those are the ones talking about it so is it more like 30%, 33% of children are actually abused) more than 6% of the adult population is hurting these kids. 

Thats what I was getting at. 

[izabella]

33 minutes ago, AnnieHeights said:

I love Oprah did the interview with an audience of victims......Like her or not (and I do) she has been a lifelong advocate for this exact thing and I commend her for endorsing the documentary and believing them.  I have read folks saying she did it for ratings.....I applaud her for using her celebrity and vast following to give an additional voice to this story.    

I don't even know what that means.  Oprah no longer has her own show, so it's not like she did this for her own ratings. 

I think James said he wouldn't have been able to be on the show if the audience weren't all survivors of child abuse.  I can believe that.  I hope it helped him to see he was not alone in his torment.

Props to Anthony Edwards for being in the audience and for the work he is doing for victims.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I meant the number of children abused and the percentage of children who’ve experienced abuse. I can believe that 6% of the population are actually pedophiles, and they have multiple victims, but if 1 in 4 children (so 25%) are abused in their life time (and those are the ones talking about it so is it more like 30%, 33% of children are actually abused) more than 6% of the adult population is hurting these kids. 

Thats what I was getting at. 

I think the answer to that is that most pedophiles have more than one victim.  And most victims don't grow up to become pedophiles, either.

  I think it also can be the definitions being used for abuse.  For example, when I was a kid, around 10, a guy tried to talk to me and my siblings while we were playing together in a park.  He then offered to 'help' us climb on the monkey bars.  In doing so, he grabbed my older sister and I, over our clothes, in the crotch and rubbed there.  She wasn't sure when it happened to her, but, when he almost immediately did it to me; we both started shrieking, telling him to leave immediately.  He ran like the wind.  Technically, was I molested? Yeah, I think so; but in no way was my experience even the tiniest fraction of a percentage of what other kids endure.  The fact that I had good strong parents who taught us to speak up and not be afraid to tell someone to stop when we weren't comfortable made the difference.   BTW, my dad arrived shortly thereafter to take us home.  We told him what happened and he actually grabbed a tire iron out of the trunk and started searching the park.  We didn't find the guy, but I have no doubt what would've happened if we had.  Like I said, I had wonderful parents.  This happened in the late 1960's BTW, when lots of kids played in parks without much supervision.  It was midafternoon on a Sunday and there were plenty of other kids in the park and some adults, too.

Edited March 8, 2019 by doodlebug

[Neko]

Two more things from this doc that still stick out in my mind, days later: Michael wearing a red, pajama onesie at the Safechuck's house (ICK), and Stephanie Safechuck saying she would "visit" her own son, while they were with Michael.  Really?  You would visit your ten year old son?  You, the one person your son should be with the most if you should ever go on any kind of trip?  WTF??

[AnnieHeights]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I don't even know what that means.  Oprah no longer has her own show, so it's not like she did this for her own ratings

This aired on both HBO and OWN so the people who were against this was saying she only did the interview for ratings since she it aired on her network.  Just one of the tamer slams Oprah has received.        

[Melina22]

8 minutes ago, Shakma said:

Two more things from this doc that still stick out in my mind, days later: Michael wearing a red, pajama onesie at the Safechuck's house (ICK

And that reminds me of the footage of him showing up at court in pyjama bottoms. Even at the time, back when I didn't think he was guilty, that struck me as incredibly manipulative. "Poor me. I'm too feeble to even get dressed." I didn't buy it at all. 

[athousandclowns]

Just now, Melina22 said:

And that reminds me of the footage of him showing up at court in pyjama bottoms. Even at the time, back when I didn't think he was guilty, that struck me as incredibly manipulative. "Poor me. I'm too feeble to even get dressed." I didn't buy it at all. 

I think that’s when he was trying to bow out of showing up and judge said no dice so he wears his pjs. He took time to have his wig on and rest of his face which majority was tattooed but still. 

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

I think the answer to that is that most pedophiles have more than one victim.  And most victims don't grow up to become pedophiles, either.

  I think it also can be the definitions being used for abuse.  For example, when I was a kid, around 10, a guy tried to talk to me and my siblings while we were playing together in a park.  He then offered to 'help' us climb on the monkey bars.  In doing so, he grabbed my older sister and I, over our clothes, in the crotch and rubbed there.  She wasn't sure when it happened to her, but, when he almost immediately did it to me; we both started shrieking, telling him to leave immediately.  He ran like the wind.  Technically, was I molested? Yeah, I think so; but in no way was my experience even the tiniest fraction of a percentage of what other kids endure.  The fact that I had good strong parents who taught us to speak up and not be afraid to tell someone to stop when we weren't comfortable made the difference.   BTW, my dad arrived shortly thereafter to take us home.  We told him what happened and he actually grabbed a tire iron out of the trunk and started searching the park.  We didn't find the guy, but I have no doubt what would've happened if we had.  Like I said, I had wonderful parents.  This happened in the late 1960's BTW, when lots of kids played in parks without much supervision.  It was midafternoon on a Sunday and there were plenty of other kids in the park and some adults, too.

I see what you’re saying, and I agree that abusers have more than one victim. But I just think more than 6% of the population has to be involved for there to be so many victims. Of course I could be wrong. 

[ari333]

16 hours ago, dcubed said:

Want another creepy as f picture...this is one of his nephews, supposedly for an album.  Michael encouraged him to dress/not dress this way.  The nephew was 17.  You can see his pubic hair.  WTF????

eww

Edited March 8, 2019 by ari333

[Melina22]

Yeah, that's normal. Just a typical uncle/nephew pic.

Isn't it crazy what people were prepared to overlook? 

[Penman61]

If you haven't watched the Oprah interview, I strongly recommend it.

I realized after watching these two victims sit alone for a four-hour documentary, I was hungering for them to be around other people, to be supported and have their experience validated.

Ain't no validator like Oprah.  I found that hour to be, personally, more cathartic than the documentary, for so many reasons (many personal).  One I can share is that Oprah quite rightly shifts focus back to ALL victims, frames the discussion as a cultural crisis that can happen anywhere instead of just being a celebrity tabloid story, and enlarges our understanding of what exactly the experience is like for the victim (e.g., how you can love your rapist/abuser, the paradox of the abuser being a "good" person doing "good" things and also raping children, et al.).

IMHO, over her career Oprah has endorsed far too much woo (remember "The Secret"?), but she is a force for good in some of the places we most need it--and are most afraid to go. 

[ari333]

16 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Blanket is his nickname, given mainly because MJ named all of his kids after himself.  His oldest child, known as Prince, is actually Michael Joseph Prince Jackson, Jr.  Paris' actual first name is Paris-Michael.  The infamous Blanket's given name is Prince Michael Jackson II.   MJ  apparently considered himself to be Prince Michael Jackson I.

I'm not sure how he got the name Blanket, but he was the infant that MJ infamously dangled over a balcony for the press after placing a baby blanket over the kid's head.

If someone is a Jr doesnt the name have to be the same as the Sr?

This sounds nuts like when George Foreman named all his kids George. sheesh

[Snewtsie]

I had always heard that predators groom their victims, but I had never heard the word seduction used to describe it.  And that concept brings a powerful meaning to how it happens & how it stays hidden.  In this case, seduction- the boys, & their mothers.  Each mom idolized MJ on a level that was completely unnatural.  They willfully disregarded huge red flags because it would mean they'd have to give up the glamour of being part of MJ's inner circle.  They gushed about MJ & all the perks with such a sickening enthusiasm- even though they know what he did to their sons.  They each seemed so wistful in their interviews as they recounted their wonderful memories, proving to me that deep down inside, they still felt the same fondness toward MJ today.

And James' mom - I don't believe for a moment she was thrilled to learn MJ died.  She was trying to sell that hard- too hard.

And Wade's mom - I'm not surprised it's too upsetting for her to learn the details of his molestation.  After all, it's all about her.

[Melina22]

5 minutes ago, ari333 said:

MJ named all of his kids after himself.  His oldest child, known as Prince, is actually Michael Joseph Prince Jackson, Jr.  Paris' actual first name is Paris-Michael.  

Wow. Talk about delusions of grandeur! Of course, his idea that he was quite literally (in his mind, despite his fake humility) God's gift to the world, was often on display in his shows, and particularly when he had that mammoth statue of himself towed down the Thames (I think).

He would have made an excellent Pharaoh. 

[AnnieHeights]

1 minute ago, Snewtsie said:

And James' mom - I don't believe for a moment she was thrilled to learn MJ died.  She was trying to sell that hard- too hard.

1000%

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I think the answer to that is that most pedophiles have more than one victim.  And most victims don't grow up to become pedophiles, either.

51 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I see what you’re saying, and I agree that abusers have more than one victim. But I just think more than 6% of the population has to be involved for there to be so many victims. Of course I could be wrong. 

I think there are probably many instances of abuse that are more situational too. Like on one hand there's pedophiles like Jackson who target multiple children and are always going to be finding someone. In those cases you can get one priest abusing over a hundred kid as he gets moved around by the church.

But there's probably also, for instance, the boyfriend who moves in with a girlfriend who has kids and decides to go after the girl even though she's 12 rather than because she's 12. I think there's also situations where, for instance, a mother dies and the daughter takes on a lot of the roles the mother used to have and that turns into an incestuous situation when the father goes after her. Or a person who gets off on the power.

I think maybe that's what Scarlet is referring to wrt victims. Just that there are people who were molested as children whose abuser wasn't motivated strictly by pedophilia, but just vulnerability, accessibility, etc.

[Scarlett45]

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think there are probably many instances of abuse that are more situational too. Like on one hand there's pedophiles like Jackson who target multiple children and are always going to be finding someone. In those cases you can get one priest abusing over a hundred kid as he gets moved around by the church.

But there's probably also, for instance, the boyfriend who moves in with a girlfriend who has kids and decides to go after the girl even though she's 12 rather than because she's 12. I think there's also situations where, for instance, a mother dies and the daughter takes on a lot of the roles the mother used to have and that turns into an incestuous situation when the father goes after her. Or a person who gets off on the power.

I think maybe that's what Scarlet is referring to wrt victims. Just that there are people who were molested as children whose abuser wasn't motivated strictly by pedophilia, but just vulnerability, accessibility, etc.

Yes! That’s exactly what I meant. In my original post several pages ago I compared it to people who abuse vulernable adults that have mental disablites- they do it because it’s an easy thing to get away with and they are a sick person who likes hurting others NOT because they cannot find another adult to have consensual partnered sex with them. It’s not about any sort of unfulfilled attraction or desire but about opportunity or control. 

I do think MJ was actually a pedophile- I don’t think most abusers are. 

Edited to add- I say all this to say, perhaps 1 (not all but one) reason people are so skeptical about childhood sexual abuse is that they are assuming the abuser must be a pedophile (and exclusive or primarily attracted to pre-pubescent children). Not saying it’s an excuse but a reason. If you (general you) think only 6 percent of the population is capable of something you may not think there’s much chance of it happening to your child, and are less likely to think “weird behavior” means someone may abuse your child, or that a heteronormative life means someone can not be an abuser. If people acknowledge that children are abused by people we think are “normal” maybe more kids and adults would come forward. The abusers aren’t two headed monsters you can recognize on sight just figurative monsters. 

[ruby24]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes! That’s exactly what I meant. In my original post several pages ago I compared it to people who abuse vulernable adults that have mental disablites- they do it because it’s an easy thing to get away with and they are a sick person who likes hurting others NOT because they cannot find another adult to have consensual partnered sex with them. It’s not about any sort of unfulfilled attraction or desire but about opportunity or control. 

I do think MJ was actually a pedophile- I don’t think most abusers are. 

I agree with that. Which begs the question, is pedophilia like this a mental illness? It must be. There must be something wrong in a person's brain to have warped all sexual desire to be targeted at children and no one else, right? He never seemed to have any attraction to anyone his own age at any point in his life.

[Athena]

21 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Which begs the question, is pedophilia like this a mental illness? It must be. There must be something wrong in a person's brain to have warped all sexual desire to be targeted at children and no one else, right? He never seemed to have any attraction to anyone his own age at any point in his life.

Pedophilia is considered a psychiatric disorder. The exact causes are unknown and genetics may play part of it. When Oprah's talk show was on, I remember she covered this topic a lot including interviewing at least a couple of pedophiles. One was self-aware enough to say that he learned to manage it with therapy, by not going to places with children, etc. There are studies and developments of treatments that I've read where medical professionals are trying to identify these individuals early and treat them with the goal of preventing future abuse. The actual identification is very difficult for many reasons.

With Jackson, I don't know whether it was genetics or environmental factors. There is a case for both since Joe Jackson was a piece of work and many of the Jacksons have experiences as being abused or being abusers.

[configdotsys]

On 3/5/2019 at 3:55 AM, Simon Boccanegra said:

I'm willing to take Feldman at his word that Jackson never molested him, but it's quite possible Jackson behaved differently with celebrity kids versus unknowns.

I have only read up to page 4, but wanted to say that I don't think it's necessarily celebrity kids that he stayed away from. People who are doing wrong things-- not just sex abuse, but pilfering money in businesses, etc.-- tend to do wonderful, wonderful things for some people because doing that gives them an army of people who will defend them to the death and are truthful when they say they never saw anything untoward but instead only saw the person doing great things.  They will say things like, "When my house burned down, he paid for my new kitchen, so there's no way he did X..."

It makes me crazy when you see people on TV blindly proclaiming that someone that they don't even know is innocent. They think because someone has a great voice, or can dance, or gives to charity that, "I can't believe he would do something like that." All that shows is a lack of critical thinking. It scares me how much blind loyalty people have to folks they don't even know. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Melina22 said:

He would have made an excellent Pharaoh. 

He gave that job to Eddie Murphy:

(Sorry ... thought I'd add a little levity.)

[TigerLynx]

Four of the jurors from MJ's trial were interviewed.  Some of the very people, not just children, who testified at his trial have now changed their stories.  The jurors kept waiting for some actual evidence, as opposed to just people testifying - yes, he did, no he didn't, but they never got any.  They thought the prosecution would have something from the search warrants that were executed at Neverland and his condo, but they didn't present anything.

I can understand children being manipulated by or coerced by adults to lie or cover up the truth.  It happens all the time.  However, these parents, and several other adults that were involved in all this, are at the very least guilty of being horrible parents and guardians.

Edited March 9, 2019 by TigerLynx

[Ambrosefolly]

3 hours ago, Athena said:

Pedophilia is considered a psychiatric disorder. The exact causes are unknown and genetics may play part of it. When Oprah's talk show was on, I remember she covered this topic a lot including interviewing at least a couple of pedophiles. One was self-aware enough to say that he learned to manage it with therapy, by not going to places with children, etc. There are studies and developments of treatments that I've read where medical professionals are trying to identify these individuals early and treat them with the goal of preventing future abuse. The actual identification is very difficult for many reasons.

With Jackson, I don't know whether it was genetics or environmental factors. There is a case for both since Joe Jackson was a piece of work and many of the Jacksons have experiences as being abused or being abusers.

 

Some blogs speculated that Joe Jackson possibly handed over Michael to pedophilies  when the Jackson 5 made their breakthrough in order to advance the group. Jermaine once wrote that Joe would have Michael in meetings with "important business men" and Michael would be sick for days after. It tracks with everything else we know for sure: the extreme plastic surgery (some child abuse victims get it so they don't look like the person that was molested), the emotional arrested development, him distancing himself from his immediate family.

[Melina22]

I finally watched the Oprah special. I didn't feel up to it before. Wow, that was so, so intense. It's hard to imagine anyone watching that and still thinking they're lying. 

I miss Oprah. She really is good at what she does. 

[Robert Lynch]

I can't help, but remember how Norm MacDonald would always burn Michael Jackson with the "homosexual pedo" jokes on SNL. 

[Brattinella]

Pedophilia may be considered a psychiatric disorder, but people who ACT on their pedo desires go to prison.  And that is how it should be.  We should absolutely never normalize it.

[A.Ham]

Ugh, I need eye bleach after that picture with the nephew. The evil part of me wants to post it on twitter to his biggest supporters and ask their opinion, but they would probably accuse me of photoshopping or come up with some delusional pile of "reasons".

[Ambrosefolly]

10 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

I actually do think all of the Jackson sibs were above-average talents at singing and/or playing. It's pretty remarkable that that much musical talent was in one generation of one family. But Michael and Janet were lucky in their collaborators. They both separated themselves from the clan and broke through as adult solo artists with the help of first-rate producers. Michael's best albums were produced by Quincy Jones, who already had worked with so many legends, and his silky style proved a perfect match. Janet had Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, who had been part of Prince's Minneapolis-based network (before one of those acrimonious breaks that Prince so often had with collaborators), and they gave her a punchy, aggressive sound that really was something new and fresh in '86. They also wrote pretty much the entire Control album, and a lot of Rhythm Nation.  

Of course, it wasn't just good producers. Maybe those two had the most drive as well. Being a superstar means wanting it and being willing to give up a lot to have it. As others have noted, Rebbie, for one, was more family-oriented.  

 

I think with Janet, who I think is very savvy, she also had the good forunate to be a lovely looking 20 something who could dance almost as well as her brother and a had pleasant, if limited voice in the 80s after Madonna burst on the scene.  It has been said that Rebbie is the strongest singer next to Michael, but she was a 30 something with a husband and kids when she decided she did want a music career, and unforuntely, showbiz, especially the music industry is very ageist. 

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Brattinella said:

Pedophilia may be considered a psychiatric disorder, but people who ACT on their pedo desires go to prison.  And that is how it should be.  We should absolutely never normalize it.

I don’t believe a significant percentage of the people that abuse children are imprisoned- most of them live in a culture of silence that allows to go on and abuse again and again.

That NOT how it should be. 

[methodwriter85]

On 3/5/2019 at 10:28 AM, lovinbob said:

Interesting. I had the opposite reaction. James seems so fragile to me. I am actively worried about him. 

I had the same reaction. He seems like he was barely keeping it together, and then when he got to the line about how it's getting tough to watch his son get close to the age he was when he got molested because he's seeing a mirror of himself at that age? I mean, dude. The James had the other line about how people look at him and see an adult, but he's really just a little kid in the body of someone who's gotten older? Man, that haunted me.

I was riveted by this. Not to get too graphic, but when I was 9 years old, I was groomed by the 13-year old son of a family friend that we were staying with. I shared a room with him for a few weeks. We'd stay up late watching cartoons. It started with him asking me to "pretend makeout" as in we'd put our mouths close together and pretend like we were kissing, because I needed to practice for when I'd get my future girlfriend. Then it eventually went to the "striptease game", where he thought it'd be funny to perform a striptease and get nude, and then he asked me to do it for him. I thought the whole thing was kind of funny, being 9 years old. Then my mother suddenly started making us keep the door open, like some weird spider sense was tingling. Things went south with the family friend and I moved out of the room and into a guest bedroom with the rest of my family while we looked for a new place to live. It wasn't until I was a teenager myself that I realized that I had come very, very close to getting molested. I'm very glad that I didn't, but grooming really is such an insidious process. When someone like that is preying on someone, they're making someone think that you're their friend and you're special and it's just all a really fun game.

It's just really sad, because the chances are high that the 13-year old son had this done to him. To bring it back to Michael, I'm pretty sure that he must have been heavily molested by someone at 12, since that seemed like his general target and that seems to be when his mentality kind of "froze."

Edited March 9, 2019 by methodwriter85

[ruby24]

2 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

It's just really sad, because the chances are high that the 13-year old son had this done to him. To bring it back to Michael, I'm pretty sure that he must have been heavily molested by someone at 12, since that seemed like his general target and that seems to be when his mentality kind of "froze."

Good point. He had to have learned this from somewhere, right? And he really put a long grooming effort into Jimmy, not starting the abuse for a whole year. He was totally reeled in by then. That part in the film where he said the first time they went to his house Michael just gave him $700 in cash. I mean, that right there is a classic pedophile step- how did he know to do that stuff?

[Sharonana]

I ended up signing up for a free week of HBO just so I could watch this documentary. Going to watch one more time before I cancel. LOL. Wow! I have so many thoughts.

My heart goes out to those two men. They are so brave coming forward with their story. This forum seems to be the only place with understanding and empathetic folks. I've looked on Facebook and Twitter and there are so many angry people calling these men liars. They really are blinded by the "shiny" things. The victim blaming is unreal. The mothers were clueless and yes I understand MJ groomed them as well, but they were adults and they should have been protecting their children. They failed miserably. It's understandable that the guys are having a hard time forgiving their mothers.

Poor James. He seems so fragile. When he and Wade hugged at the end of the Oprah interview...tears. I loved when Wade said he wanted to be able to tell the truth as loudly as he had to tell the lie. How can anyone not believe them? There are just too many specifics and too many similar experiences between them.

MJ was really sick. I cannot find the appropriate adjectives to convey my disgust with his actions. HE is the liar!!! I cannot listen to his music anymore. I am so totally disgusted, disappointed and dismayed by his behavior. He abused his power to gratify his sexually depraved mind. I was shocked at how often he had sex with these boys. This is a horrible thing to say, but I'm glad he is no longer on this earth. He will not be able to harm another child ever again!!!

I hope all those effected by MJ will find some peace in their life. I just want to hug all of them. ❤️

Edited March 10, 2019 by Sharonana

[Melina22]

Driving to town this morning, the radio was playing an old Casey Kasem show and he played Billy Jean. Yikes. 

But then I reflected that if we really knew what various musicians, group , actors  had done in their private lives, we may never watch a movie or listen to music again. I'm not going to name anyone in particular, but I have some strong suspicions. 

So I guess I'll draw my personal line at not giving actual money to artists I know to be bad people, and for the rest, just try not to think about it. 

As one of my favourite sayings goes, "Not my circus. Not my monkeys." 

[SunnyBeBe]

41 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Driving to town this morning, the radio was playing an old Casey Kasem show and he played Billy Jean. Yikes. 

But then I reflected that if we really knew what various musicians, group , actors  had done in their private lives, we may never watch a movie or listen to music again. I'm not going to name anyone in particular, but I have some strong suspicions. 

So I guess I'll draw my personal line at not giving actual money to artists I know to be bad people, and for the rest, just try not to think about it. 

As one of my favourite sayings goes, "Not my circus. Not my monkeys." 

Yes, it's hard to know where to draw the line. I had posted upthread about the resentment I had at no longer being able to enjoy Jackson music....even that of when Michael was a young child. THEN, I heard some commentary on a radio show on Thursday where they were arguing that if we are to take that approach, we have to go further and question if we should avoid the song Amazing Grace, since it was written by a slave owner. (John Newton.)   I see it as different, but, I've been giving it some thought.  

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I had the same reaction. He seems like he was barely keeping it together, and then when he got to the line about how it's getting tough to watch his son get close to the age he was when he got molested because he's seeing a mirror of himself at that age? I mean, dude. The James had the other line about how people look at him and see an adult, but he's really just a little kid in the body of someone who's gotten older? Man, that haunted me.

I was riveted by this. Not to get too graphic, but when I was 9 years old, I was groomed by the 13-year old son of a family friend that we were staying with. I shared a room with him for a few weeks. We'd stay up late watching cartoons. It started with him asking me to "pretend makeout" as in we'd put our mouths close together and pretend like we were kissing, because I needed to practice for when I'd get my future girlfriend. Then it eventually went to the "striptease game", where he thought it'd be funny to perform a striptease and get nude, and then he asked me to do it for him. I thought the whole thing was kind of funny, being 9 years old. Then my mother suddenly started making us keep the door open, like some weird spider sense was tingling. Things went south with the family friend and I moved out of the room and into a guest bedroom with the rest of my family while we looked for a new place to live. It wasn't until I was a teenager myself that I realized that I had come very, very close to getting molested. I'm very glad that I didn't, but grooming really is such an insidious process. When someone like that is preying on someone, they're making someone think that you're their friend and you're special and it's just all a really fun game.

It's just really sad, because the chances are high that the 13-year old son had this done to him. To bring it back to Michael, I'm pretty sure that he must have been heavily molested by someone at 12, since that seemed like his general target and that seems to be when his mentality kind of "froze."

I am very sorry that happened to you, and I am too sorry for what likely happened to that young man. 

If Michael was groomed and pimped out by Joe (which I can believe) that was most certainly WRONG and evil, but that doesn’t excuse his actions as a full grown adult man (I’m not even speaking towards an older child manipulating younger child). The victim blaming is quite real @Sharonana- I see a lot of people insinuating it couldn’t be true because someone would’ve spoken up, and now people are speaking up for money (but wouldn’t the same logic also apply of staying quiet for money)? I think many people just DO NOT want to believe that this could happen to them or someone they love so they put their heads in the sand. 

12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yes, it's hard to know where to draw the line. I had posted upthread about the resentment I had at no longer being able to enjoy Jackson music....even that of when Michael was a young child. THEN, I heard some commentary on a radio show on Thursday where they were arguing that if we are to take that approach, we have to go further and question if we should avoid the song Amazing Grace, since it was written by a slave owner. (John Newton.)   I see it as different, but, I've been giving it some thought.  

I too was thinking about this, and I am not trying to take away from the musical genius that existed. Some can enjoy the art and no longer idolize the man. I’m not going to try to force anyone to enjoy something that’s triggering or upsetting for them. At the Darren Criss & Lea Michelle concert this year, Darren chose “Remix to Ignition” as his Chicago choice and a woman stood up, yelled “he’s a fucking rapist” and walked out. I think Darren’s choice was in poor poor taste and I am glad she left given she felt so passionately (with good reason). 

I think as a culture we need to stop acting as if sexual abuse is a unicorn rare occurrence and do more to 1. Prevent, 2. Punish abusers, 3. Support victims. 

[Neko]

Well, I can support the victims by not listening to MJ's music, anymore.  It's a very small gesture, but it's the least I can do.

It's hard to enjoy it after what we've heard, anyway.  The local station played Black or White the day after the doc aired, and I couldn't help but cringe.  Macauley Culkin was even in the video.  Ugh.

In other news, this happened:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/08/entertainment/simpsons-michael-jackson/index.html

Edited March 9, 2019 by Shakma

[Empress1]

On 3/7/2019 at 1:28 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Wade’s career came out of his god given talent and hard work. Yes the right people saw him at the right time, but MJ didn’t make his career- even if he had, that was the least he could do after abusing him for years. Wade deserves all his success, but that doesn’t make up for what happened to him. 

When I turned this on I was like "Wait, Wade Robson? THE Wade Robson?" I recognized him immediately.

On 3/7/2019 at 7:42 PM, spaceghostess said:

I put more responsibility on whichever parent (mother or father) spent the most time looking after the child in the presence of Jackson and who made decisions such as bringing the child to his home to sleep with him at 1:30 a.m.

I just cannot imagine getting that request and honoring it. I really can't.

I came away hating Wade's mother. When she was all "boo hoo, Amanda wouldn't let me in the house, I was so hurt," I was thinking "Fuck you, lady."