S08.E04: Episode 4

[OnceSane]

Quote

Sister Julienne is drawn into a conflict between an estranged mother and daughter, both of whom are pregnant. Nurse Crane visits a photographic gallery in Soho with Sgt Woolf, but the trip does not go to plan, and Sister Frances' shyness causes concern. Trixie's keep fit class is chosen to host a special event, but her star pupil is devastated to learn that she is pregnant.

Airs February 3, 2019.

[MissLucas]

Well, the show is not pulling any punches with this abortion theme. I appreciated how both Dr. Turner and Trixie were admitting the awful truth that not every baby is welcome and that their hearty 'you'll manage' sometimes just isn't enough. Trixie's monologue in the scene with Sgt. Woolf was especially powerful.

And as much as I enjoyed Sister Monica Joan's ramblings about fishes finding the light etc. I couldn't help thinking that for once Sister Frances was actually asking the right question. They can't solve the ethical and philosophical conundrums surrounding abortion but they could focus on putting an end to this person's business, and trying to find out how the information is passed on is their best bet. 

I actually enjoyed Sgt. Woolf and Nurse Crane. She must have seen through his ruse but was kind enough to play along. I was glad he came clear in the end. It was an understated bit of comic relief but given the gravitas of the A-plot it was fitting.

The warring mother and daughter team was okay-ish and the resolution of their feud was touching. But it definitely felt as if the writers were trying to make sure to not leave the audience all worked up about the A-plot. It's a bit of a standard recipe for the show by now but I'm not complaining since it was hard to watch the tragedy and its aftermath unfold.

[bybrandy]

7 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I couldn't help thinking that for once Sister Frances was actually asking the right question. They can't solve the ethical and philosophical conundrums surrounding abortion but they could focus on putting an end to this person's business, and trying to find out how the information is passed on is their best bet. 

There is clearly somebody operating in poplar who needs to be stopped beause they are injuring/killing women.  So, yes, from that perspective Sister Frances is correct.  Monica Joan's point, however, is that women will find a way.   When that abortionist is jailed there will be another and women will find them too.    And if they can't find somebody some women will take things into their own hands.  There will always be a back alley option, and women will always find those practitioners, if there aren't legal options.  

 

I was pretty, "eh, whatever" about the other story.   And I guess it is cute how much the sgt was working to try to impress nurse Crane.  I didn't actively dislike him in this episode.  But I'm still not feeling it.

cutest moment of the episode Tim in the background when the turners are playing in the closing montage, sneaking a cup of coffee, and realizing he doesn't like coffee and putting it back.   It was just a such in the background moment and it was lovely.   Keep the rebellion low key, Timmy.   Sneaking off to the nuns to do your homework and sneaking coffee.

[maggiegil]

In some ways I wish that Call the Midwife wasn't so episodic with their guest characters (not sure if that makes sense) but I feel like certain characters like Jeanie (the woman who had the botched abortion) should have been introduced last season having her second baby or just attending clinic and being told that Trixie would expect to see her back at keep fit asap or something. We're supposed to feel like the girls have  a super strong emotional connection to this woman we've never seen hide or hair of before.

 

2 hours ago, bybrandy said:

There is clearly somebody operating in poplar who needs to be stopped beause they are injuring/killing women

I wonder is it going to be that they need to be stopped or will they do something more radical like have Dr T give them advice on how to do it better.

Kind of thought they were setting it up that abortion was allowed to become legal and Dr Turner was considering offering them and Sr Julienne or another nun or even Sheila was passionately opposed but I looked it up and this series is set in 64 and it wasn't legal until 67.

[MissLucas]

I guess this is to show the struggle that led to the change in legislation in 1967. Having Dr Turner instructing the abortionist is way too radical for this show (and the character) - the best solution for the Nonnatus ladies is to make sure the person in question is removed from the equation because she (or he) is a danger to all the women seeking help.

There was a unnerving undercurrent in the final dialogue of episode 1 between Sister Julienne and Sister Hilda where they both acknowledged the existence of illegal abortions taking place all the time but nobody noticing since (due to sheer luck and/or skill) there are no complications. What are you going to do then? You don't have any evidence and even if you had and removed a relatively safe practitioner from the streets you'd risk women going to someone less skilled or taking matters into their own hands. That's the sad truth behind Sister Monica Joan's ramblings.

But now someone is performing abortions who is not working with sterile instruments (since Sister Frances mentioned that both women had suffered streptococcus infections) -  this is clearly an on-going plot and I guess sooner or later the Nonnatus ladies will do some drastic to get this person behind bars. Whether we will also see them campaigning for a change in legislation remains to be seen - it would definitely cause friction within Nonnatus house. Not just between nurses and nuns but probably also between the nurses.

[anna0852]

Absolutely. I see Trixie and Val being pro but Lucille firmly against. 

[MissLucas]

Yep, that's pretty much what I think too. Nurse Crane might join the pro camp but I'm not so sure about the Turners.

[anna0852]

Dr. Turner is pragmatic enough to be pro but I don't see Shelagh ever being okay with it. Maybe a source of friction down the road?

[OnceSane]

I can see Shelagh being okay with it under certain conditions beyond the current (on the show) laws.  Such as incest and rape.  Otherwise, I'd be a little surprised to see her support abortion for non-medical reasons.

I liked that they showed the ambulance with Dr. Turner & Jeannie passing by the abortion alley.  It makes me think they'll find this abortionist by season's end, maybe because of the unclean instruments.

[JustDucky]

Funny story: my phone's ring tone is the Doctor Who theme.  So when Sister MJ was watching TV, I thought I was getting a phone call!

The abortion storyline pulled no punches, and I appreciate that.  It acknowledged that not every new baby is a happy surprise, that abortion could be dangerous, and that women would find a way.  

I had a feeling the photo exhibition CraneWolfe went to would be of an, er, eyebrow-raising nature.  Nurse Crane's reaction of "I thought I've seen all of the human body there was to see" (paraphrased) made me giggle.

[LittleIggy]

Let Sister Monica Joan watch her “Dr. Who” in peace! 😆

[Rap541]

53 minutes ago, JustDucky said:

Funny story: my phone's ring tone is the Doctor Who theme.  So when Sister MJ was watching TV, I thought I was getting a phone call!

Funny story: As a child in the 1970s, Dr Who used to run on PBS right before Sesame Street in the afternoons. My mom would plank me down for Sesame Street and flip the tv on and leave and I'd catch the last few minutes of the robotic dog show (as I called it). Then the ending theme would play, and then... the PBS station id would play.

Which frankly terrified me. 

I can remember almost praying mom would leave the room while the robot dog music played so I could quickly turn the channel to the OTHER channel before the evil letters ate me. 

I had no idea that it was the theme to Dr Who until I saw the Christmas episode where David Tennant becomes the Doctor. I always equated it with the evil child eating letters and that wretched giant yellow bird that could pluck out my heart with its giant beak. 

I admit, I sort of squeeled with glee that SMJ loves the Doctor. 

Also did anyone notice that the woman who had the back street abortion was Mrs. Tennant?

Edited April 22, 2019 by Rap541
eta because hilarious!

[howiveaddict]

46 minutes ago, Rap541 said:

Also did anyone notice that the woman who had the back street abortion was Mrs. Tennant?

No. That's cool!  It was like my worlds were colliding. Sister Monica Joan watching Dr Who.  I was only have listening to the show when I heard the theme music. I quickly rewound to watch the scene.  Then to see Finella Woolgar, who played Agatha Christie in a Dr Who episode, sitting in the background, also watching the show.  Too bad Sister Julienne made them change the channel.  

Yesterday a binge watch a series called Touching Evil, that was written by Russel T  Davies.  I just love how so many British actors are in so many different series.  And also how they don't make the women all glam but, they look like regular people.

[GaT]

That was a rough episode, I always forget this isn't a "happy ending" show, & that people will die.

[zillabreeze]

This show is the best and the worst.  But damn!  I don't have children, don't like them.  Never have wanted them.  I think babies are weird, children are sticky and annoying and not near as cool as puppies.  But damn!!!

When I watch this show, I cry, I sob,  I giggle, I flat laugh out loud and then  I hide under the covers, screeching "oh no no!" And burst into a total meltdown.

That's why it's really good TeeVee in my opinion.

I am exhausted after every episode.

[debraran]

8 hours ago, JustDucky said:

Funny story: my phone's ring tone is the Doctor Who theme.  So when Sister MJ was watching TV, I thought I was getting a phone call!

The abortion storyline pulled no punches, and I appreciate that.  It acknowledged that not every new baby is a happy surprise, that abortion could be dangerous, and that women would find a way.  

I had a feeling the photo exhibition CraneWolfe went to would be of an, er, eyebrow-raising nature.  Nurse Crane's reaction of "I thought I've seen all of the human body there was to see" (paraphrased) made me giggle.

Someone on FB was angry that they showed what she felt was a "pro-abortion" show, I think it's just a reality show for the time. It happened, it was sad and laws don't make things perfect.  I like how Sr Monica Joan answered the nuns question on how she found the woman. I can't remember it word for word now, how animals find what they need or know where to look, but she knew a woman will find what she needs or thinks she needs if so driven.

I still don't feel any chemistry with Crane toward the good officer but I'm glad she made him feel a little better before she took off. If they hadn't shown her with the man from her class, seeing how they clicked, I might be more inclined to see this work.  Time will tell.

Edited April 22, 2019 by debraran

[debraran]

On 2/3/2019 at 4:49 PM, MissLucas said:

Well, the show is not pulling any punches with this abortion theme. I appreciated how both Dr. Turner and Trixie were admitting the awful truth that not every baby is welcome and that their hearty 'you'll manage' sometimes just isn't enough. Trixie's monologue in the scene with Sgt. Woolf was especially powerful.

And as much as I enjoyed Sister Monica Joan's ramblings about fishes finding the light etc. I couldn't help thinking that for once Sister Frances was actually asking the right question. They can't solve the ethical and philosophical conundrums surrounding abortion but they could focus on putting an end to this person's business, and trying to find out how the information is passed on is their best bet. 

I actually enjoyed Sgt. Woolf and Nurse Crane. She must have seen through his ruse but was kind enough to play along. I was glad he came clear in the end. It was an understated bit of comic relief but given the gravitas of the A-plot it was fitting.

The warring mother and daughter team was okay-ish and the resolution of their feud was touching. But it definitely felt as if the writers were trying to make sure to not leave the audience all worked up about the A-plot. It's a bit of a standard recipe for the show by now but I'm not complaining since it was hard to watch the tragedy and its aftermath unfold.

Do you think the "hidden woman" who does abortions will be found in a subsequent show or just stay hidden as many are. I watched a movie with many stars of Titantic recently, Revolutionary Road , where a woman thinks about doing it herself. I've seen a lot over the years but this left me chilled. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Road_(film)

I thought the mother/daughter part seemed like "filler" but I enjoy mostly everything the show has on. Sr Julienne to me seemed tired, maybe her makeup but I kept getting distracted by how she looked.

[JudyObscure]

34 minutes ago, debraran said:

Someone on FB was angry that they showed what she felt was a "pro-abortion" show, I think it's just a reality show for the time.

Well, I agree with the FB person that it was too plainly one-sided. 

I think, at the time, and even now, at least one or two Nonnatus women would have said something like, "How sad for the loss of two lives,"  because I think some of them  would have thought the fetus was a viable life, too.  

I also think it's unrealistic on this show that only the abortionist is ever blamed, and not a word is said about the part the woman played in seeking her out.  I was shocked that this woman went to the abortionist when her husband had so strongly indicated that he was against it. It was his baby, too.  Plus, it's part of any young mother's responsibility to the children she already has, to not take huge chances with her own life. Dr. Turner had made it clear to her how dangerous it was. 

I guess I don't like it when a writer uses a show like this to push her own agenda in such a biased way.  I am Pro-choice myself, but  I respect that  there are reasonable positions on both sides of this issue, and the other side wasn't even hinted at.

[Bunnyette]

That’s what I like about this show.  It makes you think.  It appears that Jeannie was so worried she’d end up like her mother with 11 kids she would do anything.  Although I think the storyline might have been more realistic if she’d been a widow or single woman...glad there was the storyline of the feuding mother & daughter to brighten things up.  As usual SMJ was her usual fabulous self.

[Driad]

Could Dr. Turner legally have offered Jeannie a permanent solution (e.g. tubal ligation) after she had the third child?

If the mother wasn't racist, I don't get why she was so angry at her daughter & husband. Seemed to be because they were poor?

[jah1986]

1 hour ago, Bunnyette said:

That’s what I like about this show.  It makes you think.  It appears that Jeannie was so worried she’d end up like her mother with 11 kids she would do anything.  

I agree with this. I thought another part of her worry was that her mom seemed to have multiple mental breakdowns with these children. Didn't she say something about them being in foster care a few times? So I think that was fueling her fear as well.  Just a sad situation.

[jschoolgirl]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

the good officer

He's a poor substitute for Peter Noakes.

[debraran]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Well, I agree with the FB person that it was too plainly one-sided. 

I think, at the time, and even now, at least one or two Nonnatus women would have said something like, "How sad for the loss of two lives,"  because I think some of them  would have thought the fetus was a viable life, too.  

I also think it's unrealistic on this show that only the abortionist is ever blamed, and not a word is said about the part the woman played in seeking her out.  I was shocked that this woman went to the abortionist when her husband had so strongly indicated that he was against it. It was his baby, too.  Plus, it's part of any young mother's responsibility to the children she already has, to not take huge chances with her own life. Dr. Turner had made it clear to her how dangerous it was. 

I guess I don't like it when a writer uses a show like this to push her own agenda in such a biased way.  I am Pro-choice myself, but  I respect that  there are reasonable positions on both sides of this issue, and the other side wasn't even hinted at.

I agree the nuns should care about both baby and mom but women couldn’t do much back then on their own.  My doc in the states talked of how a patient in the 60’s wanted a hysterectomy after 6 kids and prolapsed uterus . Husband said no unless she had cancer. She kicked him to the couch. He said she was emotionally and physically exhausted and eventually got something done. Things changed a lot in the following years.   

Hopefully more will be discussed on both ends as time goes on 

Edited April 22, 2019 by debraran

[sigmaforce86]

1 hour ago, Driad said:

Could Dr. Turner legally have offered Jeannie a permanent solution (e.g. tubal ligation) after she had the third child?

If the mother wasn't racist, I don't get why she was so angry at her daughter & husband. Seemed to be because they were poor?

That's where the plot sort of got lost for me.  I get that she didn't want the third but she and her husband talked about having it then increasing their contraception and they never mentioned the pill which we know is available now.  Unless it was one of those infamous "aired in England but cut by PBS" scenes that I hate missing out on and that frequently help with the story.  If not it should have been included even if it was just a one off sentence like I tried those pills you know how sick they made me or something.  I just think it would have made her desperation to not have the third and the both of them discussing how to avoid a 4th or 5th easier to understand once the obvious option was off the table.

Kudos to the makeup department though - the progression from blue under the eyes and pale lips when Jeannie was first in bed to blue lips when her husband couldn't wake her to darker blue and a tint extending down her chin in the ambulance was really subtly well done and realistic.

Also I wonder how many younger viewers had trouble understanding why Trixie was having a five year old hair dryer repaired instead of just getting a new one.  It's sort of a shame that these days we not only accept that five years is about the lifespan of a hand held dryer like that but also taking it to a repair shop (if you can find one) means the repair costs as much as just buying a new one. 

[willowk]

I had a hard time really empathizing with the woman who got the abortion as she didn't want a third child. I know the writers put her in there on purpose, as abortion as a choice for those who are married and with the means to support the child is another aspect of the debate. She mentioned not wanting to end up like her mom with 7 kids, but 3 is not seven. She could have switched to the pill or get her tubes tied (did they do that then?) after the baby was born.

What surprised me was how guilty Dr. Turner felt, its not that he didn't help her, he offered all kinds of aid, just wouldn't lie about her circumstances so she could abort the baby. And it felt a little off to me that the husband wasn't angry at his wife for what she did, afterall  he wanted the third baby. But all his anger was focused on the doctor who didn't terminate the baby. For me this is a case where they injected too much 2019 into a 1964 situation. I don't know about in the UK, but in the US the same story whether set in 1964 or 2109 likely would have stirred up more of a mix of emotions than it did in this episode.

[Rap541]

4 minutes ago, willowk said:

She mentioned not wanting to end up like her mom with 7 kids, but 3 is not seven. She could have switched to the pill or get her tubes tied (did they do that then?) after the baby was born.

I agree - the family was doing well by Poplar standards and seemed to be up and coming. A third child isn't even a lot of kids by our current standards

[willowk]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Well, I agree with the FB person that it was too plainly one-sided. 

I think, at the time, and even now, at least one or two Nonnatus women would have said something like, "How sad for the loss of two lives,"  because I think some of them  would have thought the fetus was a viable life, too.  

I also think it's unrealistic on this show that only the abortionist is ever blamed, and not a word is said about the part the woman played in seeking her out.  I was shocked that this woman went to the abortionist when her husband had so strongly indicated that he was against it. It was his baby, too.  Plus, it's part of any young mother's responsibility to the children she already has, to not take huge chances with her own life. Dr. Turner had made it clear to her how dangerous it was. 

I guess I don't like it when a writer uses a show like this to push her own agenda in such a biased way.  I am Pro-choice myself, but  I respect that  there are reasonable positions on both sides of this issue, and the other side wasn't even hinted at.

yes to all this. You said it better than I did.

[willowk]

I found the Nurse Crane and the Officer date a bit sad. I got the sense that Nurse Crane is protecting her feelings, while the Officer clearly would like to upgrade their friendship to dating. It was funny that the exhibit turned out to be racier than the  Sargent thought. Which of the girls was it -Trixie or Val who was surprised that the gallery was in So Ho? They likely had a sense the area wouldn't be the usual haunt of folks like Nurse Crane and the Sargent.

[tennisgurl]

I kind of just wanted to watch Sister Monica Joan recapping old school Doctor Who episodes for an hour or so. 

This is one of those episodes where, I get what they were going for, and its a good discussion/issue to talk about, but it felt a little too 2019 for me. Not that people didnt discuss these issues in the 60s, obviously, but the characters talked about these issues in more the ways I would imagine people in 2019 might talk about issues of abortion, not people in the early 60s, especially people that are deeply religious. Not that they wouldn't have had compassion for the poor woman, especially after her death, but I would have expected some people to be a bit more conflicted by what she did, or feel sad about both the loss of life of both the mother AND the child. It felt a bit more like a lecture than an episode, especially in a show set in a time of rapid social and technological progress. I mean, whats the point of dealing with these issues and how they affected people in the past if you dont really debate anything? 

Edited April 22, 2019 by tennisgurl

[MissLucas]

I can see why for some the mindsets discussed here look anachronistic. In defense of the writing I'd say there's some continuity for this - we've seen Sister Julienne calmly dealing with the victim of a botched abortion back in season 2 when Jenny was expressing outrage and despair over the crime that had happened.

Quote

Nurse, the world is full of people who want to be rid of children they cannot afford to feed and haven't the energy to nurture. We can only give love, and encouragement and warning, and pray they do not seek to buy the kind of "help" they really want. 

Later we had Sister Winifred - the one nun I always thought most dogmatic - having to deal with the teacher who did a DIY abortion. She wasn't blaming the woman but herself because she had treated the unmarried pregnant lady too judgmental.

I guess being on the front-line (so to speak) of the issue is maybe as much a contributing factor to the nuns quiet acceptance (on the surface - prayer is something we don't get to see) of what they can't change as the wish of the writers to not alienate the audience by having the show's protagonists coming across as too harsh. Of course with such a controversial subject they might run into the opposite.

Edited April 22, 2019 by MissLucas

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

I can see why for some the mindsets discussed here look anachronistic. In defense of the writing I'd say there's some continuity for this - we've seen Sister Julienne calmly dealing with the victim of a botched abortion back in season 2 when Jenny was expressing outrage and despair over the crime that had happened.

Later we had Sister Winifred - the one nun I always thought most dogmatic - having to deal with the teacher who did a DIY abortion. She wasn't blaming the woman but herself because she had treated the unmarried pregnant lady too judgmental.

I guess being on the front-line (so to speak) of the issue is maybe as much a contributing factor to the nuns quiet acceptance (on the surface - prayer is something we don't get to see) of what they can't change as the wish of the writers to not alienate the audience by having the show's protagonists coming across as too harsh. Of course with such a controversial subject they might run into the opposite.

As an Obstetric provider, I do find the story a bit anachronistic in that, in general, physicians especially, were far more judgmental and paternalistic than would be acceptable these days and it was far more likely back then that the doctor would've given her a lecture rather than quietly told her that he couldn't break the law.  I thought Dr Turner was sympathetic and gentle with her when he refused her request.  Of course, this show has always presented him as far more collegial and respectful to the midwives than I suspect was the norm in that era; so maybe he is just the exception.

 The only thing he could've done would be to refer her to a mental health professional before flatly telling her that her unhappiness at being pregnant was not reason enough to terminate.  She told him about her family history of mental illness which was seemingly exacerbated by repeated childbearing.  My OB career didn't launch until 1982, several years after Roe v Wade in the US, but I do know that abortion was available in some places in the US when the life of the mother was deemed to be at risk and it was not all that difficult to get approved on a mental health basis.  I would expect, with legalized termination only a few years away in Britain, that quite a few women were able to terminate based on mental health concerns.

I don't doubt that many women back then might seek an abortion without their husband's knowledge or consent.  I don't think times have changed that much. 

I do think we'd see the nuns at least praying about abortion, though.  Holding prayer services seems like a reasonable response in that era.  Remember that the nuns of Nonnatus House are Church of England and not Roman Catholic, though, and CoE has always been more liberal regarding social issues.

Even though the woman's family seemed far better off than many in Poplar, remember she spoke with her husband about their impoverished childhoods and how she wanted better for her own kids.  They were also in the process of buying their own home and she was seemingly working as part of the plan to afford that.  Having another child was going to interfere with that, certainly.  Back in those days, a woman could expect to lose her job the moment she appeared to be pregnant, there were no legal protections.  She would've been unable to work for maybe a year, which could've totally ruined their plans to buy their own place.

Edited April 22, 2019 by doodlebug

[Sarah 103]

On 2/3/2019 at 4:49 PM, MissLucas said:

I couldn't help thinking that for once Sister Frances was actually asking the right question. They can't solve the ethical and philosophical conundrums surrounding abortion but they could focus on putting an end to this person's business, and trying to find out how the information is passed on is their best bet. 

I agree. She is being smart and pragmatic. 

On 2/4/2019 at 3:38 AM, maggiegil said:

I wonder is it going to be that they need to be stopped or will they do something more radical like have Dr T give them advice on how to do it better.

Kind of thought they were setting it up that abortion was allowed to become legal and Dr Turner was considering offering them and Sr Julienne or another nun or even Sheila was passionately opposed but I looked it up and this series is set in 64 and it wasn't legal until 67.

Dr. Turner strikes me as the type who would not break the law. He could not perform an abortion in 1964. However, he seems somewhat liberal and wants to do what is best for his patients, so I could see him knowing someone (possibly a doctor willing to take the risk) who uses clean instruments in a sterile environment and having some method of steering his patients to them, instead of women taking thier chances on someone a friend of a friend used. 

On 2/4/2019 at 11:22 AM, anna0852 said:

Dr. Turner is pragmatic enough to be pro but I don't see Shelagh ever being okay with it. Maybe a source of friction down the road?

Yes! I love this idea. Let's see them have an actual real argument with voices raised. 

[rhys]

4 hours ago, willowk said:

I had a hard time really empathizing with the woman who got the abortion as she didn't want a third child. I know the writers put her in there on purpose, as abortion as a choice for those who are married and with the means to support the child is another aspect of the debate. She mentioned not wanting to end up like her mom with 7 kids, but 3 is not seven. She could have switched to the pill or get her tubes tied (did they do that then?) after the baby was born.

I'm trying to remember as I was 13, 14 in 1964. I don't recall when oral contraceptives came on the market. Seems like around 1965, but tubal ligation was much later in my memory. She was right to be concerned, tho, having been trotted off to foster care a couple of times. Poor woman. sad all around now. We don't know how lucky we have it now.

[debraran]

36 minutes ago, rhys said:

I'm tSo rying to remember as I was 13, 14 in 1964. I don't recall when oral contraceptives came on the market. Seems like around 1965, but tubal ligation was much later in my memory. She was right to be concerned, tho, having been trotted off to foster care a couple of times. Poor woman. sad all around now. We don't know how lucky we have it now.

When  I looked it up, it was out in 64 . I know even in late 70's, what I took was considered very high amounts of hormones vs what they give now. Side effects (for me anyway) seemed worse. I don't know how long something is out before  a majority of women feel comfortable  and it was only given to married women and it doesn't seem like it was free.

According to this article, most didn't use it early on.

Already Britain was in the throes of extraordinary upheaval. Six years after the Pill arrived, the Rolling Stones were singing Let’s Spend the Night Together. Women rejected their mothers’ perms and twinsets for long hair and mini-skirts.

Despite this, by the end of the 1960s, only one in 10 British women had ever taken the Pill. Its heyday came in 1974, with the introduction of free contraception. After that, Pill usage quadrupled within five years from 9 per cent of all women to 36 per cent. Over the next couple of decades, the average age for a woman to marry started rising gradually from 22 to 29 today, while the number of women in the workforce began to multiply, with its consequent impact on family life.

Edited April 22, 2019 by debraran

[JudyObscure]

31 minutes ago, rhys said:

 We don't know how lucky we have it now. 

 Dr. Turner could have told her how effective the pill was and that he would prescribe it for her after her third (and probably last ) baby was born.

The curious part is that in 1964 the unmarried birth rate was about 4% and now with all our birth control and abortion on demand it's risen to about 40%. 

My mother was in a similar position when she got pregnant with me, a brand new house with two bedrooms, one containing two little beds for my two brothers.  They thought their family was complete and the rhythm method had been working just fine for them. Then she found out she was pregnant with me,  when my brother was just a few months old and he was a sickly baby.  We all survived, but I did have to share a bed with my brother for the first 8 years.

[MissLucas]

49 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

The curious part is that in 1964 the unmarried birth rate was about 4% and now with all our birth control and abortion on demand it's risen to about 40%. 

That's probably more indicative of a change in mentality. A pregnancy meant simply that you had to marry (or let the baby disappear by abortion) - no discussion. By now that has changed and not every unmarried birth means a single socially ostracized mother. Some folks never get married but stay together nevertheless. Others get married after the first kid has been born (the local church registry has plenty of marriage/baptism combo-ceremonies each year).

[doodlebug]

59 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 Dr. Turner could have told her how effective the pill was and that he would prescribe it for her after her third (and probably last ) baby was born.

The curious part is that in 1964 the unmarried birth rate was about 4% and now with all our birth control and abortion on demand it's risen to about 40%. 

The rate of unmarried pregnancy is higher because there is no longer any real stigma for an unmarried woman who has a child.  Plenty of unmarried women have planned pregnancies these days.  Back in 1964, a woman who was unmarried and pregnant would get married pronto or give the child for adoption in the vast majority of cases.  Having a child as a single woman and raising it by herself, or in cooperation with a partner to whom she was not married, was essentially not an option.

However, just as in the early 60's, the rate of unplanned pregnancy is unacceptably high when you consider the multiple options available to prevent it.  Currently, in the US, half of all pregnancies are unplanned.  And, based on my personal experiences, most of the women who admit to unplanned pregnancy were using no contraception at all.  I have no idea why anyone who really didn't want to  be pregnant wouldn't use something to prevent it.

1 hour ago, rhys said:

I'm trying to remember as I was 13, 14 in 1964. I don't recall when oral contraceptives came on the market. Seems like around 1965, but tubal ligation was much later in my memory. She was right to be concerned, tho, having been trotted off to foster care a couple of times. Poor woman. sad all around now. We don't know how lucky we have it now.

Tubal ligation has been around a lot longer than the pill.  There were reports of it being done in the late 1800's, generally in conjunction with a cesarean section which was, of course, a life threatening procedure at that time.  Tubal ligation became more widely used in the 1930's, but, even then, it was mostly reserved for women having cesarean sections or women who had serious medical problems making pregnancy risky.  It wasn't really until the '60's and the introduction of the pill that tubal ligation became popular for all women.  It wasn't until there was a reliable reversible method of contraception that the medical establishment and women themselves became interested in permanent contraception.  In the US, tubal ligation or vasectomy is by far the most popular method of contraception.

Edited April 22, 2019 by doodlebug

[natyxg]

I'm confused, is the season going to end with the abortionist being caught or something? It seems odd to feature two abortion stories so close to each other.

9 hours ago, Driad said:

If the mother wasn't racist, I don't get why she was so angry at her daughter & husband. Seemed to be because they were poor? 

Yeah, the mother wanted her daughter to have the best in the world, and it drove her crazy that she chose to marry a man who kept her so poor. And they were all too stubborn to, ya know, try to make things better by working together. Until they had that scare and they all gave in. The mother and daughter reconciled, the husband accepted help from others... I thought that the woman's father finding her husband work at his job and all of them helping each other out was a lovely way to end that plot. That's how we should try to be.

[anna0852]

As to why Mrs. Tennent was using a diaphragm instead the Pill it was probably down to money. One time cost versus an ongoing monthly prescription. 

[debraran]

16 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

As to why Mrs. Tennent was using a diaphragm instead the Pill it was probably down to money. One time cost versus an ongoing monthly prescription. 

Yes, when I read that the pill wasn't free, it was undersstandable someone counting pennies would not want to do that. Diaphragm doesn't work for many and some of it does have to do with weight changes and not being refitted.

Edited April 22, 2019 by debraran

[rhys]

I got on oral contraceptives while single in 1971. Don't remember the cost. Better than the alternative!

[debraran]

14 minutes ago, rhys said:

I got on oral contraceptives while single in 1971. Don't remember the cost. Better than the alternative!

When I was growing up in the 70's many women told me they got the pill from PP for free or nominal cost. If they worked part time, they might pay 3.00 or something like that.  Nothing was perfect but it was better than most methods available.

[JudyObscure]

40 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I have no idea why anyone who really didn't want to  be pregnant wouldn't use something to prevent it.

That's what I meant.  Of course I understand that the social stigma of unmarried birth is almost gone and living together situations are much more common. I just don't understand why so many women are getting pregnant when they don't really want to.  with so many forms of birth control , some 99.9% effective, plus the morning after pill, there really should be no need for abortion.

  I went to the doctor and got on the pill in 1965.  I told the doctor I was engaged, six months later when I went to renew my prescription and was still not married, he treated me to a lecture about promiscuous behavior, but he renewed my prescription and that's all I cared about.  Then, as now, the cost is nothing compared to the alternative as Rhys said.

[jschoolgirl]

6 hours ago, Rap541 said:

I agree - the family was doing well by Poplar standards and seemed to be up and coming. A third child isn't even a lot of kids by our current standards

Memories of the two wars and the worldwide economic crisis during the 30s were vivid recent memories, as were Jeanie's memories of her mother.

[txhorns79]

I see this is the week where Sister MJ is a wise old sage.  I look forward to next week where she gets lost (again) after developing some kind of sickness that will have mostly cleared up by the end of the episode. 

1 hour ago, jschoolgirl said:

Memories of the two wars and the worldwide economic crisis during the 30s were vivid recent memories, as were Jeanie's memories of her mother.

I think Jeanie's issues were mostly due to her mother's breakdowns.  She would have been a very young child during the war, and I doubt she had much memory of the Great Depression. 

I did love that Sister Julienne was the focus during this episode.  She has such a calming demeanor, and the character is just so lovely. 

[libgirl2]

23 hours ago, JustDucky said:

Funny story: my phone's ring tone is the Doctor Who theme.  So when Sister MJ was watching TV, I thought I was getting a phone call!

The abortion storyline pulled no punches, and I appreciate that.  It acknowledged that not every new baby is a happy surprise, that abortion could be dangerous, and that women would find a way.  

I had a feeling the photo exhibition CraneWolfe went to would be of an, er, eyebrow-raising nature.  Nurse Crane's reaction of "I thought I've seen all of the human body there was to see" (paraphrased) made me giggle.

My phone ringtone is the Tardis take off!

[LittleIggy]

6 hours ago, rhys said:

I'm trying to remember as I was 13, 14 in 1964. I don't recall when oral contraceptives came on the market. Seems like around 1965, but tubal ligation was much later in my memory. She was right to be concerned, tho, having been trotted off to foster care a couple of times. Poor woman. sad all around now. We don't know how lucky we have it now.

Some people want us to go back to the bad old days. 😡

[LittleIggy]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

That's what I meant.  Of course I understand that the social stigma of unmarried birth is almost gone and living together situations are much more common. I just don't understand why so many women are getting pregnant when they don't really want to.  with so many forms of birth control , some 99.9% effective, plus the morning after pill, there really should be no need for abortion.

Oh, but what about those zealots who don’t want women to have the morning after pill?

[bourbon]

On 4/21/2019 at 9:45 PM, JustDucky said:

The abortion storyline pulled no punches, and I appreciate that.  It acknowledged that not every new baby is a happy surprise, that abortion could be dangerous, and that women would find a way.  

At first I was surprised that they had chosen *this* character to do the abortion storyline with. She only had two kids (as compared to the 6 kids of the cleft palate storyline), she was young, and she and her husband looked comparatively prosperous. But perhaps that was the point. If you're truly pro-choice, you don't get to judge. 

I generally ship characters on any given show, but I prefer Phyllis not get a romance storyline. It's nice to see an older woman be happy and fulfilled with her friendships and her career. 

[debraran]

23 minutes ago, bourbon said:

At first I was surprised that they had chosen *this* character to do the abortion storyline with. She only had two kids (as compared to the 6 kids of the cleft palate storyline), she was young, and she and her husband looked comparatively prosperous. But perhaps that was the point. If you're truly pro-choice, you don't get to judge. 

I generally ship characters on any given show, but I prefer Phyllis not get a romance storyline. It's nice to see an older woman be happy and fulfilled with her friendships and her career. 

I agree to a point with Phyllis but I feel if she was with someone like the guy at her class, (if single) he would add to her, she wouldn't be less. They would share things that others around her might not appreciate the way she does. That of course can happen with female friends also, but as she said to Tommy "I don't want another friend". She wanted a relationship with him and I would be happy watching her either way as long as she stayed the same. I can't see her changing her views etc at this stage in her life.

I say that because I remember women years ago (70's mainly for me) that would pretend to like things they didn't, music, food, etc to please a guy. I just couldn't because I felt the "real" me would come out later and then what?  lol  I love how many women on this show are opinionated and not afraid to say their minds.