Season 5 Discussion

[hnygrl]

Just finished the season. 

I loved it. Really, really loved it. The kids got (slightly) better once their parents collectively grew balls and told them to back off. THEN things were decent between the kids and the parents. But only when people quit being butt-hurt at every turn and got good and angry.

I like assertive Saul. Keep it up, man.

GRACE AND NICK!!!!!! HOLY MOLEY!!!!!

But hey, Nick LOVES Frankie. Nick gets Frankie at times better than Grace does. I don't see that changing. I think he knows his woman well enough to not get in the way of that. That, and the show's called "Grace and Frankie" not Grace, Nick, and Frankie. I like the way he caters to the girls, how he gets them, really gets them. It's lovely to see.

Bud's wife's mom telling her asshole hubby to shut the f**k up. I want that whole speech on a T-Shirt. For real. Can somebody get on that?

And this season I finally, finally get those two. I see now what Bud saw in her and why she's so important to him (after meeting daddy) and it's beautiful to see.

Overall, surprisingly warm-hearted season. Definitely re-watchable (last season wasn't).

[Empress1]

On 1/20/2019 at 2:28 PM, bijoux said:

I don't know if we have been given Nick's age on the show, but a 15 or 20 year difference seems about right. Plus, he has a grown up son working with him, doesn't he? 

I worked with a woman whose grandmother was 100 and her husband (second or third husband, I forget) was 20 years her junior. She lied about her age when she first met him. I thought of her when Grace saw Nick's mother. IRL there's an 18-year age difference between the actors.

On 1/20/2019 at 4:33 PM, wendyg said:

Just a reminder that in real life Lily Tomlin is 79 and Jane Fonda is 81...and Betty White is 97...and they're all still *working*. It really depends a lot on genetics, lifestyle, health, wealth...

My grandmother died at 83 (she got cancer) but before that she had a really active, vibrant life. She was a lifelong New Yorker who could tell you how to get anywhere on any city's public transportation, she had a wealth of friends of varying ages, and she had a more active social life than I do - and she was stylish as hell, much like Grace is (although I didn't care for her pink suit at the meeting with the packaging people). Actually, all of my grandparents were pretty active people and all but one lived past 80.

Spoiler

Brianna putting Grace's birth certificate on a cake was like ... are you crazy? I was imagining the letter her assistant would write to Ask a Manager. "Dear Alison, my boss wants me to dig up her mother's birth certificate and put it on a cake. Should I do it?"

[Rockstar99435]

I still hate all of the kids. Especially Brianna.

Spoiler

 

Outing her mother's real age was such a low blow to the woman who gave her the company and then saved the company after Brianna ran it into the ground. (The part on the couch when the others were telling her how good she looks for her age did make me laugh. According to my step-mom, who lives in a retirement community, everyone still lies about their ages but now they age themselves up so they can get a bunch of compliments about how good they are aging.)

Nick is the best. I love him and Grace together. I like how nice and understanding he is about Frankie. "They're not my schemes. They're our schemes." was great.

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Rockstar99435

[SoMuchTV]

On 1/19/2019 at 8:53 PM, AuntieMame said:

  Hide contents

I think Frankie's vibrator scheme was a way of spreading our the fifth thousand vibrators, over years of possible, but fifty thousand free units would still be overwhelming for a small business. They could have just been honest about the mix up and done a lottery for say 500 or a thousand units. I don't think a Twitter post constitutes a contract. If handled correctly it could have kept positive attention on their business. 

Regarding (I think) ep 11:

Spoiler

I was bugged that they were more concerned with the shipping logistics than the fact they had promised to give away 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars worth of product, but I thought the plan Frankie came up with was actually pretty workable. They can say "this week we're shipping to all our retweeters over age 95! Come back next week to see who's next!"

Edited January 29, 2019 by SoMuchTV
Reposters, rerweeters, one of those things...

[Calvada]

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 8:37 AM, Eeksquire said:

I think my biggest objection to this season was Joan Margaret - she annoyed me everytime she was on the screen.  (And don't get me started on the running back and forth at the crosswalk!)

Yes!  I have a dislike of this actress ever since she played the incredibly annoying Gertrude Moon on Frasier. 

[mjforty]

I think my biggest take-away from this season is that Frankie is kind of an asshole.  I guess were supposed to think she’s lovably quirky but I found her selfish and self-absorbed.  I enjoyed the episode where she gets high with Martin Sheen.  They don’t have those two actors play off each other enough and they should because that episode was comedy gold.  But it also brings up a problem with Frankie.  She ruins everything and then tries to guilt everyone into fixing an impossible situation ethically.  She creates a disaster and then yells at Grace for how Grace decides to handle it.  Then she sabotages Grace’s efforts to fix the disaster and then proceeds to get angry when Grace walks away from the mess Frankie created.  A mess Frankie created not once but twice.  

Even in the alternative version you see Frankie’s selfishness, where she totally ignonores the request to keep the chickens outside.  She wants the chickens inside, so inside they come.  I did love how close the makeup people were able to make Grace look like one of those Real Housewives people, though.

i really liked this season.  I felt we saw a lot of character growth.  I just got tired of Frankie’s antics.

[hnygrl]

I LOVED Grace checking out in the middle of a (Frankie-created) Crisis, leaving Frankie all alone to clean up her own mess however she sees fit. Grace don't give a damn, you made the mess you clean the mess. Or not. Don't care. I'm going to Belize. byeeeee!  That's growth for Grace. I love that she walked away from Say Grace for good and forever. Sink or Swim, Briana's on her own. I like this new Grace.  She's been Mrs. Fixit for the majority of her life and at 80 she said that's enough. You assholes are on your own now. And miracle of miracles? They do just fine.

I'm also tired of Frankie getting so many passes because she's Frankie. Time for her to face the consequences of her actions. Way past time she grew up already. Quirky is one thing...this is just childish irresponsibility.

And secretly? I'm glad grace got married. This is a woman who has never been truly loved unconditionally in her life. She deserves it. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by hnygrl

[iMonrey]

Overall I really enjoyed the season and continue to love this show. And as brilliant as Lily Tomlin is as Frankie I do agree that the character itself is becoming increasingly annoying. They seem to be going for farce with Frankie, so she is one of those TV characters who could never survive in real life.

It does seem like they glossed over what the kids did to them at the end of Season 4. There was some dialogue early on that indicated Grace and Frankie had actually agreed to sell the house and let their children take care of it, but just didn't expect it to have sold so quickly by the time they changed their minds. Whereas last season I got the distinct impression the kids sold the house out from under them without their knowledge.

Brianna is really the one who is most awful to them so I suspect she was the ringleader. But I can't bring myself to hate her because I find her so hilarious. In fact I love the actors who play all the kids, especially Ethan Embry. His facial expressions are comedy gold.

RE: the finale

Spoiler

I'm dying to know how they achieved the plastic surgery look for Grace, although I suppose it's possible it was done entirely with makeup. It was hilarious looking and yet, you can't help deny there's a world where Jane Fonda might have actually ended up looking like that. Not to be cruel but we've all seen Hollywood actresses who ended up looking very much like that. It's scary.

[Clanstarling]

On 1/26/2019 at 6:37 AM, Eeksquire said:

I think my biggest objection to this season was Joan Margaret - she annoyed me everytime she was on the screen.  (And don't get me started on the running back and forth at the crosswalk!)

Although the crosswalk story was done in a ridiculous fashion, I must say I responded to it - as there are days when my knees or foot act up and I have to hobble as fast as I can to get across a street. I move pretty fast when I'm not aching, but it's a real effort sometimes - and I'm not even close to the age of the characters (though firmly within the old category).

I also knew a woman who moved just like Joan Margaret - only for real. It was painful to watch.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

I must say I responded to it - as there are days when my knees or foot act up and I have to hobble as fast as I can to get across a street.

Clanstarling, to be clear, my objection wasn't about the timing as much as the idea that anyone would get halfway across and then ... run back to the same side they started on.  Who does that? No one.  I'm firmly on the side of everyone taking as much time as they need to cross the street!

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It does seem like they glossed over what the kids did to them at the end of Season 4. There was some dialogue early on that indicated Grace and Frankie had actually agreed to sell the house and let their children take care of it, but just didn't expect it to have sold so quickly by the time they changed their minds. Whereas last season I got the distinct impression the kids sold the house out from under them without their knowledge.

I think they did establish last season that they had agreed to it and the kids were taking care of the sale. But it's understandable that it got missed because it was like one line of Grace to Nick vs. the two of them being surprised by that For Sale sign.

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

Clanstarling, to be clear, my objection wasn't about the timing as much as the idea that anyone would get halfway across and then ... run back to the same side they started on.  Who does that? No one.  I'm firmly on the side of everyone taking as much time as they need to cross the street!

Indeed, that was the ridiculous part. I didn't think you were commenting on older people needing time, but I wasn't very clear in my response. :)

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think they did establish last season that they had agreed to it and the kids were taking care of the sale. But it's understandable that it got missed because it was like one line of Grace to Nick vs. the two of them being surprised by that For Sale sign.

I don't think they did, actually. There was massive discussion about it in the forum, and it seems like someone would have pointed that out then (but I could have forgotten).

[rainsmom]

They said it in the first episode of THIS season. It was a complete after-thought to cover their asses after their sloppy plotting.

Of course it was STILL sloppy, because they just skipped over the couple of months that pass between sale and close where Grace and Frankie absolutely could have changed their minds.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Indeed, that was the ridiculous part. I didn't think you were commenting on older people needing time, but I wasn't very clear in my response. :)

I don't think they did, actually. There was massive discussion about it in the forum, and it seems like someone would have pointed that out then (but I could have forgotten).

 

2 hours ago, rainsmom said:

They said it in the first episode of THIS season. It was a complete after-thought to cover their asses after their sloppy plotting.

 

Okay, I actually went to check this because I remembered it really clearly--but sometimes I remember scenes clearly that never happened. But in this case, it's there. It's in the conversation Grace and Nick have when he comes to visit her in the last ep of S4. She's explaining how she and Frankie ended up in the home. She tells him about the tub etc. and they have this exchange: 

Nick: It was the water damage, right?

Grace: Yeah.

Nick: I'll call my guy.

Grace: It's a little late for that. The kids put the house on the market.

Nick: What? You love that place!

Grace: I can't think about it! 

So yes, they did establish that Grace knows the house is being sold and she can't think about it, same as the start of S5.

[Rockstar99435]

For me, the problem isn't that the kids put the house on the market or sold it. They had permission to do that. My problem is that they got permission by lying and manipulating their mothers because they decided it would be easier for them if their mothers were someone else's problem and because Brianna wanted to shift the blame to Grace for Say Grace going under and putting Grace in a home was the easiest way for her to do that. 

At the beginning of Season 5, they do reference the lying/manipulating a few times. Grace and Frankie both point out that they have to physically stay in the same room because they are afraid if they seperate, the kids will try to trick them again. But then, they sweep it under the rug and don't mention it again after episode 2 or 3. And they never reference Brianna's motivation at all.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Rockstar99435

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Okay, I actually went to check this because I remembered it really clearly--but sometimes I remember scenes clearly that never happened. But in this case, it's there. It's in the conversation Grace and Nick have when he comes to visit her in the last ep of S4. She's explaining how she and Frankie ended up in the home. She tells him about the tub etc. and they have this exchange: 

Nick: It was the water damage, right?

Grace: Yeah.

Nick: I'll call my guy.

Grace: It's a little late for that. The kids put the house on the market.

Nick: What? You love that place!

Grace: I can't think about it! 

So yes, they did establish that Grace knows the house is being sold and she can't think about it, same as the start of S5.

As I recall, the question was whether Grace and Frankie officially agreed to selling the house. There was a lot of discussion about powers of attorney, etc.

But, for me anyway, it isn't actually there in the dialogue. Grace doesn't say that they agreed to sell the house, just that "the kids put the house on the market."

Now, in most reasonable scenarios, I'd have shrug it off as implied, but the show doesn't really deal in reasonable scenarios most of the time. So the nit picker in me wondered why she phrased it that way, and not "we let the kids put the house on the market." She and Frankie are the owners, so it seems strange that even if they agreed, it would be the kids who handled it - especially since we, the audience, are supposed to think they're actually capable, despite what the kids think, and Grace has been a hard nosed business woman most of her life.  And finally, why would they be shocked to see that it had been sold. It's choice property that any one who's brain is functioning would know it would go in a flash.

The first episode dealt with it specifically, with a line or two, which satisfied me. I think it would have been better if they'd been that specific in the last episode.

(my profession is words - and what the words say and don't say is where my brain goes often - so I tend to overthink things, because the most benign sentence can be read a lot of different ways.)

Edited January 31, 2019 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

52 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

As I recall, the question was whether Grace and Frankie officially agreed to selling the house. There was a lot of discussion about powers of attorney, etc.

But, for me anyway, it isn't actually there in the dialogue. Grace doesn't say that they agreed to sell the house, just that "the kids put the house on the market."

Ah, I see. I did hear Grace's line as saying that the house was being sold with her blessing--or not so much blessing as her agreement because she wasn't fighting it and thought Frankie couldn't live there and even started to be too much for her etc. So I took this season as saying the same thing. I thought the conversation about power of attorney etc. was just about questioning how the house could actually be sold without their knowledge since they were the owners. Like they knew it was being sold, but you'd expect they to be told about potential buyers etc.

Even for me the house being sold without them knowing wasn't explained by that earlier conversation, so they obviously left in question marks there.

[Travellin]

I’m just at Bud and Alison’s wedding - omg Grace’s dress is incredible! 

[jrlr]

On 1/30/2019 at 3:31 PM, iMonrey said:

Overall I really enjoyed the season and continue to love this show. And as brilliant as Lily Tomlin is as Frankie I do agree that the character itself is becoming increasingly annoying. They seem to be going for farce with Frankie, so she is one of those TV characters who could never survive in real life.

It does seem like they glossed over what the kids did to them at the end of Season 4. There was some dialogue early on that indicated Grace and Frankie had actually agreed to sell the house and let their children take care of it, but just didn't expect it to have sold so quickly by the time they changed their minds. Whereas last season I got the distinct impression the kids sold the house out from under them without their knowledge.

Brianna is really the one who is most awful to them so I suspect she was the ringleader. But I can't bring myself to hate her because I find her so hilarious. In fact I love the actors who play all the kids, especially Ethan Embry. His facial expressions are comedy gold.

RE: the finale

  Hide contents

I'm dying to know how they achieved the plastic surgery look for Grace, although I suppose it's possible it was done entirely with makeup. It was hilarious looking and yet, you can't help deny there's a world where Jane Fonda might have actually ended up looking like that. Not to be cruel but we've all seen Hollywood actresses who ended up looking very much like that. It's scary.

I actually live in Palm Desert, and this episode made me howl with laughter!  You wouldn't believe how many 65+ women here really DO look like that (not being ageist, since I'm over 65 myself).  The goldfish lips, the hair, the makeup and the rich, duller-than-dirt husband (loved George Hamilton!).  The only slight innacuracy is that in real ife, the new husband of a preserved-in-formaldeyde 80 year old would be about 105, because a rich 80 year old man would have a 55-60 year old trophy wife..    

I liked the season, although I thought the comedy was pretty uneven.  And even though I love Lily Tomlin's comic genius, I'm getting really fed up with Frankie, who is becoming increasingly more annoying than amusing.

[roamyn]

On 1/19/2019 at 6:30 PM, BW Manilowe said:

So yesterday I was binge watching the new season (Season 5) of Netflix’s original show Grace and Frankie (Jane Fonda & Lily Tomlin play 2 women who aren’t exactly the best of friends, whose worlds are turned upside down when their law partner husbands, played by Martin Sheen & Sam Waterston, announce that they’ve been in a gay relationship for the last 20 years & they’re now leaving their wives to marry each other).

I was pleasantly surprised to find Paul Michael Glaser was in 2 of the 13 eps, playing a character who is an old friend of Frankie’s (Lily Tomlin) whom she meets again while on a “girls’ weekend” with Grace (Jane Fonda) to a retreat at an ashram run by another old friend of hers (Frankie’s).

Paul’s part isn’t the biggest (I honestly think he might’ve taken it in order to keep his health insurance benefits with SAG-AFTRA... I remember reading that, at least years ago, an actor actually had to act in something every so often/within a certain timeframe, especially if they weren’t very active in the business to start with, to keep the health insurance benefits they’re entitled to as a member of SAG-AFTRA). 

He’s in the 1st of the 2 eps more than the 2nd. He’s in the eps “The Retreat” (Season 5, Episode 6) & “The Ceremony” (Season 5, Episode 8).

He’s still Sex On Toast, even at age 76 (on 3/25).

[shapeshifter]

On January 22, 2019 at 8:08 PM, txhorns79 said:

It did make me wonder if Martin Sheen had some kind of clause in his contract where he gets to live out his musical theater dreams

Okay—if that's the case—but did the musical theater story have to feel so shoehorned in? It seemed like the writers never embraced the concept.

Likewise the romance between 80-year-old Grace and 60-year-old Nick. And if there was any doubt about him being that much younger, the appearance of his mother put the kibosh on that. Whether it was Jane Fonda's idea or someone else's, I think it would've worked better in seasons 1-2 before Fonda was 80 and looked it. Or if they had just said Nick was really 70, I would've been fine with his (actual) younger looks. It's just hard to believe he'd prefer her if they met at that point in their lives. Or even if he'd only been there for just season 4.

Frankie is not lovable when she's being spiteful; she's not supposed to be, is she?

Season 5 just seemed like it wasn't as well done.

But it was worth it for them to get their house back. 

My sister had my father's feeding tube disconnected and then convinced me it was just convenient to sign all power of attorney for my mom over to her, and then she put my mom in a home. Like Grace told Nick, I can't think post about it, except I wish my sister was as nice as Brianna. 'Nuff said.

Edited February 16, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Empress1]

On 2/9/2019 at 6:14 PM, Travellin said:

I’m just at Bud and Alison’s wedding - omg Grace’s dress is incredible! 

It is. I'd wear it! I also thought the "toast" was clever and very sweet.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Empress1

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

The greatest part of Bud and Allison’s wedding was: “Look at me. Look at me in the windows to my soul. Shut the fuck up. Shut all the way the fuck up until you reach the top of Shut Fuck Mountain, where there are no more fuck ups to shut. Here’s to me.”

Iconic. 

[ProudMary]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:37 AM, Eeksquire said:

I think my biggest objection to this season was Joan Margaret - she annoyed me everytime she was on the screen.  (And don't get me started on the running back and forth at the crosswalk!)

What bothered me more than anything about the crosswalk episode was that there was a simple solution:  Frankie could drop Joan Margaret off at the buffet, then go park the car and cross the street on her own.  Frankie could still go on her crusade to get the timing of the traffic signal changed but they would have gotten their crab legs!

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who found Frankie supremely annoying for much of the season.  I really didn't like that she lied--or at least didn't tell the full truth--about their girls getaway weekend.  I hated that she dragged Grace somewhere she would never want to go.  I would have been furious with any friend of mine that did something like that.  

My favorite episode was the one where Frankie and Robert got high together.  Hardest I laughed all season.  Also, Martin Sheen playing high was a reminder of Jed Bartlet high on pain pills for his back.  There was an inflection in his voice that took me right back there.  I love when the writers put Tomlin and Sheen in scenes together.  Their chemistry is so good.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, ProudMary said:

I really didn't like that she lied--or at least didn't tell the full truth--about their girls getaway weekend.  I hated that she dragged Grace somewhere she would never want to go.  I would have been furious with any friend of mine that did something like that.  

I thought Frankie was just being her typical clueless/in-denial self and thinking Grace would like the hippie spa once they got there.
Frankie only bugs me when she's angry because it makes me think that her happy hippie demeanor is fake.
So, yeah, if she is fake, you are probably right, @ProudMary, and Frankie did know Grace wouldn't like the "spa."

[STOPSHOUTING]

I love most of the actors on this show, and Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin play off each other so well, as do Sam Waterston and Martin Sheen, that I usually enjoy my time watching it, and laughed a good bit this season, even if series does seem to be running in circles. 

Maybe I'm in the minority but I  love June Diane Raphael as Brianna, FOR her awfulness, with (very) occasional grudging niceness followed by subtle self-loathing whenever she allows herself to feel. She is absolutely the worst, but in a delicious and very-funny-to-watch way. And, also in a way that is somewhat organic for the character in that Briana was raised by Grace (or more accurately the nanny Grace name-checked early in the season), who is also not exactly warm and cuddly. Many of Grace's funniest lines are when she's talking about how she low-key hates her grandkids, which is very Briana-in-40-years

And the beach house itself is definitely one of the stars of the show, so of course they had to get it back. I didn’t believe, or love, how they so quickly reset the series though, even if I could have listened to Fonda, Tomlin and RuPaul go back and forth for days. 

The stuff with the home health aide was nonsensical and, honestly, I could have done without the lasting addition of Jane Margaret. Once again, money is no object in this show, as hiring a useless full-time health aide seems to not effect their finances at all. Besides, does anyone really think that Grace or Frankie are really cleaning up all those enormous messes they’re constantly making in that gorgeous house (always whisked away completely by the next scene)? Obviously, they already have at least bi-weekly, if not a lot more, cleaning help, so it’s not like they’re  actually alone, which is what the kids claim to object to. The idea that the house, with its many stairs, isn’t totally practical for women their age is fine, and I liked the line Robert put in about them buying a one-story for that very reason, but this show is so realistically impractical when it comes to all things money-related (how a house sale works, how people pay for things, who needs to work or doesn’t), it’s almost weird when they bring anything approaching reality into it.

Honestly, I'd be better able to suspend disbelief about the finances if they weren't sometimes relevant, and sometimes not. Like, money matters when it's Coyote paying them back, or Say Grace going under; but not when you're talking about undoing escrow, or hiring a helper for upwards of $50k/year. 

This might be one that’s better not to binge, because by the end I was so exhausted by Frankie and all of her destructive schemes that I was basically rooting for Grace to leave her forever. Like, what did Grace do wrong? Take two weeks for herself? NOT plan someone else’s wedding with vague instructions and no guidance? Refuse to destroy their business?

Also, "all the way up shut fuck mountain, where there are no fuck ups to shut" is an instant classic. No question. 

Lastly, no way in any reality, alternate or otherwise, does the elegant Grace turn into a tacky Patio Princess, no matter how much I enjoyed the (let's face it, skillfully altered, but not all that altered) face and George Hamilton guest appearance. I think it was more cleverly poking fun at Fonda's own seeming transformation from free-wheeling hippie to conservative cowgirl when she was wed to Turner. 

Both Fonda and Tomlin look fantastic, and I do think Fonda WAS in on the plastic surgery gag ("once it settles in"), but there's no denying both have had a lot of work done. Good work? Hell, yes and more power to them! But it's more than a "little" work, that's for sure. 

[Empress1]

On 1/22/2019 at 6:31 PM, NeenerNeener said:

Yeah, it's like someone made a mask of all the actual bad plastic surgeries that Goldie Hawn, Beverly DeAngelo and Fran Drescher have all had, and then had someone who seems to have aged relatively gracefully wear it. I couldn't stop laughing at it; I called my sister and told her to watch just the last episode it was so spectacular.

I howled. It was beautifully done. Or rather, grotesquely done!

On 1/28/2019 at 12:55 AM, hnygrl said:

Bud's wife's mom telling her asshole hubby to shut the f**k up. I want that whole speech on a T-Shirt. For real. Can somebody get on that?

I texted it to one of my best friends, paused, and then said "Did Grace & Frankie nail it or what?"

[Mom x 3]

I'm reading all about how you guys loved Grace's dress at the wedding and I'm over here like, "Did no one see that Bud's pants were way too short!"

I am done with Frankie.  She is not quirky; she is an asshole.  Putting Grace at the kids' table because Grace let her clean up her own mess was petty and childish.  Grace might be a ballbuster, but she has never been spiteful.  I am so glad Grace married Nick.  She needs someone who can balancer her without going off the deep end.  

Plastic Grace cracked me up.  

[Yeah No]

I was talking with a girlfriend about the show today and she said she wondered if Frankie's OTT eccentric behavior this season was a precursor to her actually having dementia.  I told her I didn't know if I agreed because it seemed like the show went out of its way to make the point that these women didn't need to be in an assisted care facility.  Then again the way Grace is acting about Frankie, it's like she knows she has to be her "keeper" in a way to make sure she doesn't get herself into trouble.  However, shows usually don't keep conditions like that from the audience for so long without making it obvious to us somehow even if none of the characters are cognizant of it.  As with Marsha Mason's character, we are usually clued into something like this early on, not lead into it over an entire season without something to give it away.  So far all most of us think is that Frankie is OTT eccentric and getting more so as time goes on but no one has mentioned dementia.  I'm wondering what people here might have to say about this.

[possibilities]

Frankie has always been exactly like this. She's not disoriented or out of touch with reality, she's just impulsive and somewhat of a rebel.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I was talking with a girlfriend about the show today and she said she wondered if Frankie's OTT eccentric behavior this season was a precursor to her actually having dementia.  I told her I didn't know if I agreed because it seemed like the show went out of its way to make the point that these women didn't need to be in an assisted care facility.  Then again the way Grace is acting about Frankie, it's like she knows she has to be her "keeper" in a way to make sure she doesn't get herself into trouble . . .

20 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Frankie has always been exactly like this. She's not disoriented or out of touch with reality, she's just impulsive and somewhat of a rebel.

And yet Frankie's typical behavior would also mask the early stages of dementia. It would be easy and/or natural to have the plot go in that direction — or not.

Or split the difference and have Frankie forced to prove she's not cognitively deficient without giving up her sense of self and identity.

Edited March 5, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Eeksquire]

Quote

Then again the way Grace is acting about Frankie, it's like she knows she has to be her "keeper" in a way to make sure she doesn't get herself into trouble.

I think the show has done a good job of showing that Saul also acted as Frankie's "keeper" - his inability to let go of that role caused a lot of tension with Robert in earlier seasons.  I think it would be interesting if the show 'went there' more with Frankie - of the four, it appears that she's the only one that never had her own independent source of income, for one thing, and she's shown to be bad with money.  Without Grace, she really is the most vulnerable of the four for reasons that don't have anything to do with age, but would be exacerbated by it.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

I think the show has done a good job of showing that Saul also acted as Frankie's "keeper" - his inability to let go of that role caused a lot of tension with Robert in earlier seasons.  I think it would be interesting if the show 'went there' more with Frankie - of the four, it appears that she's the only one that never had her own independent source of income, for one thing, and she's shown to be bad with money.  Without Grace, she really is the most vulnerable of the four for reasons that don't have anything to do with age, but would be exacerbated by it.

Yes, remember in the alternate universe Saul literally compared Frankie to the class hamster that somebody had to take home over the summer. It was understood by everyone that people had to look after Frankie, but it also seemed pretty obvious that this was something Frankie used to control her family, particularly Saul. 

When Grace left Frankie on her own Frankie didn't get more scattered, she got organized and even went overboard, punishing Grace for walking out.

So it seems like a combination--on one hand Frankie is a functional adult, at least biologically. But she's also lived her life in such a way that she's got more experience getting other people to look after her in certain ways than she does taking care of herself. (She did take care of Saul in some ways, of course--that's one of the things that always seemed brought out in early seasons, how many little ways the women cared for their husbands in ways the husbands didn't care for them.)

[possibilities]

Frankie became more successful after Grace left, and actually came up with a good solution for the vibrator business. She also successfully planned and executed the wedding, which takes a fair amount of organizational prowess and attention to detail. I don't think she has any kind of dementia. I know people with real cognitive dysfunction and it's nothing like what we see with Frankie.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, possibilities said:

She also successfully planned and executed the wedding, which takes a fair amount of organizational prowess and attention to detail. I don't think she has any kind of dementia. I know people with real cognitive dysfunction and it's nothing like what we see with Frankie.

True, but if the show wanted to explore dementia via the character of Frankie, it wouldn't be much of a retcon to reveal that her kids, Saul, and possibly Robert had done a lot of catching of dropped balls WRT the wedding planning.

[Yeah No]

12 hours ago, possibilities said:

Frankie became more successful after Grace left, and actually came up with a good solution for the vibrator business. She also successfully planned and executed the wedding, which takes a fair amount of organizational prowess and attention to detail. I don't think she has any kind of dementia. I know people with real cognitive dysfunction and it's nothing like what we see with Frankie.

I agree.  I wasn't sold on my friend's interpretation but it is an interesting thought to consider.  When I saw how organized Frankie could be when Grace went away I realized that she uses that "ditzy" shtick as a manipulation to get what she wants from other people - being the center of attention and devotion, etc.  She was successful at getting it from Saul when they were married and was working it with Grace too.  I notice that Saul has gradually pulled away from her emotionally since the divorce so she can't act it out that much with him anymore, so she's pushing it real hard with Grace.  And the more Grace tries to get free from it, the wackier Frankie gets.  She was more under control with Saul because he gave into her more.  And that's my 2 cent armchair interpretation.

[Blakeston]

I adored Frankie in the first two seasons, but then the character quickly became pretty unbearable for me - and my annoyance hit its peak with her free vibrator nonsense in this season. 

It didn't surprise me at all that she became so unbearable, because Frankie has always had a whole lot in common with Phoebe from Friends (another Marta Kauffman show). Phoebe started off as one of the greatest TV characters of all time, IMO, but became an insufferable child as the series went on. Marta Kaufmann seems to believe that "quirky" characters like that should never suffer any consequences.

Frankie should have faced some real repercussions for her idiocy in promising free vibrators, and then sabotaging Grace's effort to resolve the situation. How the hell are they supposed to pay for thousands of vibrators? That had major ramifications beyond just finding the manpower to label the boxes, but the writers ignored that.

[car54]

I watched the last episode last night and I was kind of expecting something because I'd been reading here, but when I saw Grace's face.....HA!   Take that Megyn Kelly!  

It was great.    

Really now they just need to find Frankie boyfriend and buy a beach duplex and let them be next door neighbors.

[zoey1996]

First, thanks for the spoiler bars!  

Episode #13 made me think of "The Twilight Zone" for a bit.  I've really enjoyed this season.  Loved Robert getting to sing The Impossible Dream - he was quite good!  Unraveling the dilemma with Nick and Grace could prove interesting, but they did it with Frankie's Santa Fe move and then move back, and with other situations.  

I have favorite and not-so-favorite characters, but not one is enough to make me stop watching.  I'm along for the ride and am looking forward to one more season.  

[Bastet]

"Shut the fuck up.  Shut all the way the fuck up until you reach the top of Shut Fuck Mountain where there are no more fuck ups to shut."

I finally got to watch this season, and, like several others, that was my favorite part.  Frankie and Robert getting high together was a close second.

I enjoyed it, as always; I love the "fuck it" theme. 

I knew they were going to get their house back, but I hated Nick and feared he was going to turn out to be the buyer.  I was so relieved he wasn't, and they wrote him a hell of a lot better this season.  I can't forget some of the previous stuff, but I can appreciate his current actions enough to like him and his relationship with Grace (and with Frankie) now.  I'll have to hold onto that and convince myself they can handle this stupid marriage thing well next season.  (I actually do have faith, because there are several good ways to go with it.)

Along with Grace and Frankie, I love Brianna, especially when Barry - at Robert's performance - leans over and starts to ask if, in light of the feelings evoked by the wedding, and she just shuts him right down.  I also loved her and the wife of Barry's friend comparing notes on what dorks those two are, and that it was balanced with her listing all the good things about him when urging them to make him the father.

Way too much musical theater stuff, and I don't like Sol buying from a breeder, but I loved the season.  I even liked Allison, which isn't as mind-boggling as liking Nick, but still a switch. 

[ahisma]

I finally caught up with the latest season. Unlike many, I love Joan Margaret! My favorite was when she was directing the apology and took her job so seriously. And that G&F didn't really catch on to what she was implying with Boogie Nights. 😂

The only character I really can’t stand is Peter. I don't mind the musical theatre stuff so much except that that character is such an unmitigated, horrible ass. 

[JAYJAY1979]

I think Brianna and Mallory have each inherited their mom's traits.  It seems like Mallory has good ideas (vitamin D sunscreen was a decent idea) like her mom, but didn't inherit Grace's drive..while Brianna inherited Grace's drive without her mother's ability to have good ideas.

Dolly P should have appeared in this season as the buyer of the beach house.  Jane and Lily are playing characters opposite of their 9 to 5 characters...and I think Dolly could have played the shallow celebrity. 

[snarktini]

This show is finding a role for practically every 70+ actor in Hollywood! Even in small parts, it's really great to see that. Episode 5, where Grace meets Nick's mom...that was Grams from the original Charmed.

[snarktini]

Finished the season and...eh. I really have to stop bingeing it because everyone is such a caricature it's overwhelming.

Swimming against the tide here a little, I thought Grace was just as bad as Frankie by the end of the season. She has such a savior complex! So controlling and condescending to EVERYONE. Even Nick. Fonda really sells the contempt in her eyes. The way she threw her girls under the bus was the worst.

And the way she dismisses Frankie. Look, Frankie is a total loon and I would not live or work with her under any circumstances. But the sticky notes had meanings! They weren't random, they were for Bud's wedding! Grace just blew them off because she assumed they were stupid ideas. And bedazzling canes is worth considering -- maybe not that exactly, but that direction. Why does empowering old ladies have to be vibrators only? Lot of things could be made and sold with that in mind.

I thought they were both wrong about handling the aftermath of Frankie's giveaway -- they literally will not be able to give away 50,000 units over many years even if Frankie found an prioritization order that makes it fair. But a nonsense corporate-speak video isn't on-brand or helpful. If I were them, I'd sell the product and cash out because working together seems impossible.