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The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

vb68

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

(edited)
On 5/14/2018 at 10:37 AM, benteen said:

Would it have killed Disney to have Steve say once in the movie that he loves his country?  I'm not talking about making him a right-winger who blindly follows orders.  Steve doesn't like bullies, that's most definitely true.  But he loves his country too and wants to serve it.  MCU Steve seems to have no interest in his country whatsoever.

 

Doesn't he tell Peggy that in Winter Soldier, though? When he's visiting her in the hospital, he says something like he thought that he could just go back to what he'd been doing before - do the right thing, serve, follow orders, etc, but he didn't know if he could. She makes the remark about how he's always so dramatic, and shortly after that she starts to fade a little, but I think the brief exchange is enough evidence that Steve does love his country, he's just not sure if he can go along to get along.

As for the unofficial competition for Worst Father Ever, I give Odin just a little slack. Not much, since even if Hela's imprisonment  was justified his erasure of her existence gives weight to her anger when she finally escapes. Loki's a more difficult case to argue, since his talk about "growing up in the shade of your greatness" with Thor always makes it seem like he's taking it out on the wrong person. Odin being a shitty father isn't Thor's fault, just like it's not Steve's fault that Howard was a shitty father, if only in constantly holding up Cap as the golden, shining example of everything Tony wasn't. But I think Odin learned a bitter lesson in giving Hela such power and freedom in fighting by his side, and it's a lesson he put into practice with Loki by putting him firmly in second place. If only because Thor was generally cheerful and easy to get along with, as opposed to sulking in a corner because Dad won't give him the throne when he knows he'd be a better king.

Edited by Cobalt Stargazer
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Perfect Xero
Perfect Xero

Just think, Civil War could have been avoided if Steve and Tony had realized that both of their best friends were named James.

Cobalt Stargazer
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Macbeth
Macbeth

Dear Thor:      I wanted to let you know that your dear friend Rabbit a/k/a Rocket the Raccoon did successfully climb the 22 story skyscraper in Minneapolis.       Howeve

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Dandesun

Dandesun

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

It's for the villain Mysterio, which I'm totally for, especially if they commit to him wearing the bubble helmet:

image.png.5f25fb661944b3fc80f991850a659b00.png

Okay... but is he going to talk like he does in the Avengers Academy mobile game? All bombastic and over-the-top ridiculous? Because I would be here for that.

"GET MEEEE... THE WINDOW CLEANER!!"

"IT'S <huge dramatic pause> AN ILLUUUUUSION!!"

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VCRTracking

VCRTracking

12 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

I never noticed that Jasper Sitwell is in The Avengers. He only has a few lines reporting some technobabble to Nick Fury on the helicarrier, but I appreciate the continuity. 

ETA: He also appears with a few lines in the first Thor movie. Details!

He's also in Captain America: The Winter Soldier and a few episodes of Agents of SHIELD.

Recently seen the poster for yet another movie about Robin Hood, this time with a more hip edgy and modern look w and I had to roll my eyes. I think Hollywood should just stop with the retelling of the King Arthur and Robin Hood legends.  They've been done to death.  The Avengers are the new Knights of the Round Table, Guardians of the Galaxy are the new Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

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Dandesun

Dandesun

If they're doing another Robin Hood doesn't that mean it's time for another rendition of the Three Musketeers? King Arthur, Robin Hood and Three Musketeers are about as cyclical as it gets in Hollywood.

Which then begs the question: which MCU property fits the Three Musketeers? (Cap: Winter Soldier springs immediately to mind. Hey, Steve, Nat and Sam! Hey Pierce as Cardinal Richelieu! Hey Bucky as a weird combination of Milady de Winter and Comte de Rochefort! Okay, I've got no one for D'Artagnan but whatever.)

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VCRTracking

VCRTracking

3 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

If they're doing another Robin Hood doesn't that mean it's time for another rendition of the Three Musketeers? King Arthur, Robin Hood and Three Musketeers are about as cyclical as it gets in Hollywood.

Which then begs the question: which MCU property fits the Three Musketeers? (Cap: Winter Soldier springs immediately to mind. Hey, Steve, Nat and Sam! Hey Pierce as Cardinal Richelieu! Hey Bucky as a weird combination of Milady de Winter and Comte de Rochefort! Okay, I've got no one for D'Artagnan but whatever.)

The Asgardian "Warriors Three"(Hogun, Fandrall and Volstagg) were the Three Musketeers equivalent in the Thor comics but in the 3 Thor movies they barely had enough screentime to make an impact.

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Danny Franks

Danny Franks

Jake Gyllenhaal as a creepy Marvel villain is something I could be on board with. He's got a weird, unsettling intensity, which would suit a villain like Mysterio very nicely. I actually liked Homecoming quite a lot, once I finally got around to seeing it. Although I wasn't sold on the MJ character, but I can see exactly who she was supposed to appeal to.

 

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Recently seen the poster for yet another movie about Robin Hood, this time with a more hip edgy and modern look w and I had to roll my eyes. I think Hollywood should just stop with the retelling of the King Arthur and Robin Hood legends.  They've been done to death.  

Oy. Robin Hood has been done to death, and quite honestly, the best version of it in modern cinema is still somehow the one with Kevin Costner and Christian Slater (and Alan Rickman of course). There's nothing new to do with it. They tried a few years ago, with a script that was supposed to be from the Sheriff of Nottingham's point of view, but it ended up just being a run of the mill retelling, starring Russell Crowe.

I would like a proper, serious, mythology-faithful version of King Arthur, focusing more on his knights and their adventures, but it will never happen. That mess of a movie from Guy Ritchie is the best we can hope for. Hell, I'd like more quality medieval/dark ages set movies full stop, but the few that are made end up being cheap rubbish, or generally mediocre (I love Kingdom of Heaven, but it would have been so much better if they'd cast anyone but Orlando Bloom).

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VCRTracking

VCRTracking

(edited)

Braveheart is the best Robin Hood movie that's not about Robin Hood and that same year 1995 if you wanted a great story about a love triangle between a "king" his wife and best friend and the fall of a kingdom well Scorsese told it with Casino.

The temptation with Mysterio for them would probably go big with elaborate fantastical illusions they could do with CGI but I always loved the 80s movie F/X starring Brian Brown, Brian Dennehy and Jerry Orbach. That clever use of old school, practical stage effects would be a lot cooler.

Edited by VCRTracking
Dee

Dee

Supposedly Ryan Gosling was the first choice to play Mysterio but, much like DeWanda Wise, had to remove himself from the running because of scheduling conflicts.

Since Marvel seems to be into both Gosling and Wise, and other actors such as, John Boyega and Trevante Rhodes have also said they've been in talks to star in superhero films themselves, how would you cast them if/when they finally made it into the Marvel universe?

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Wynterwolf

Wynterwolf

(edited)
8 minutes ago, Joe said:

A comment I read elsewhere suggests that all the original Avengers will sacrifice themselves to bring the new ones back.

I've also seen 4 out of 6 bandied about too.  But I'm honestly not really paying attention to that, I'll just wait to see what they do, then make my decision of whether to see it or not. 

eta:  Sacrifice is an interesting choice of words though, it doesn't necessarily mean death... if GP's comment was true, Tony could chose to undo getting the child he wanted.  I'm actually catching up on 12 Monkeys right now, which is one of the few time travel examples I like, so if they did something along those lines, it could be interesting.  

Edited by Wynterwolf
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)
1 hour ago, Joe said:

A comment I read elsewhere suggests that all the original Avengers will sacrifice themselves to bring the new ones back.

I swear that reminds me of something Marvel did with the X-Men comics eons ago. They "killed" (I think they just disappeared) the new team in order to bring back the original team.

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

eta:  Sacrifice is an interesting choice of words though, it doesn't necessarily mean death... if GP's comment was true, Tony could chose to undo getting the child he wanted.  I'm actually catching up on 12 Monkeys right now, which is one of the few time travel examples I like, so if they did something along those lines, it could be interesting.  

I think it would depend on if there's a time jump between Avengers 3 and Avengers 4. If 4 is a year or few years after Infinity War then I can see it. If 4 picks up right after Infinity War then sacrifice could mean death.

Another idea could be breaking up the team, if each had to take a stone and go in to hiding or something. 

Or maybe they go with something like Fantastic Four's Comic Book Exit (which wrote out the Richards family)?  I could live with that type of ending for Steve (please, don't kill him Feige!)

Edited by Morrigan2575
Dandesun

Dandesun

3 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

 

Meh, I've already had my fill of "sacrifices".  I'll wait to see this one too, until I know what they end up doing with it.  

Pretty sure the Avengers are pretty well versed in sacrificing already. Not to mention that Gamora was an actual sacrifice for Thanos. The main character plot for Tony in Avengers was 'making the sacrifice play.' And all Steve seems to do is sacrifice himself and then survive. Can't we just go Ingmar Bergman and have a chess game or something?

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scriggle

scriggle

I think Marvel should take this quote from Timothy Zahn to heart:
 

Quote

 

From this 2008 interview:

I often hear the argument that having major characters die is more realistic than having them always come through unscathed. Of course it is. But I personally don't want my fiction to necessarily be "realistic." I want my fiction to be entertaining. For me, that means watching engaging characters I care about get into and out of dangerous predicaments, working and thinking together in order to defeat the bad guys. While some authors (and readers) like the tension of wondering who will live and who will die, I prefer the tension of seeing how the heroes are going to think or work their ways out of each difficult or impossible situation they find themselves in. If I want realism and the deaths of people I care about, I can turn on the news.


 

I don't watch superhero movies to see the superheroes fail. I don't watch them to see them die.

Over in the IW thread, there's a summation of a interview with the writers that includes: "The initial screenings didn't get a favorable response, which they expected due to the downer ending,"

IMHO They'll really see an unfavorable response if they kill any of the original 6.

I truly believe Marvel would be making a huge mistake is they kill any of the Avengers (especially Steve). Captain America/Steve Rogers is arguably their most popular character (spidey doesn't count as Sony owns him). I know I see far more people wearing Cap merch than any other character. There's talk that Disney is contemplating some sort of CA ride/attraction. Why kill a money maker?

Also I don't think passing the mantle would work in the context of the MCU. The MCU is NOT the comics; most people have no clue about the comics. The general public strongly associates Captain America with Steve Rogers (and Chris Evans). I don't think Cap!Sam or Cap!Bucky would receive a warm welcome.

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

3 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Also I don't think passing the mantle would work in the context of the MCU. The MCU is NOT the comics; most people have no clue about the comics. The general public strongly associates Captain America with Steve Rogers (and Chris Evans). I don't think Cap!Sam or Cap!Bucky would receive a warm welcome.

Someone on my Facebook feed hated Infinity War for reasons other than the deaths, but it raises an interesting point, since someone else asked why the movies are always so different than the comics. Because the MCU is very much it's own thing, and that's actually okay. I was never into the comics until recently, and even then only in limited doses, but I like that the films have put their own stamp on things.

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festivus

festivus

12 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Also I don't think passing the mantle would work in the context of the MCU. The MCU is NOT the comics; most people have no clue about the comics. The general public strongly associates Captain America with Steve Rogers (and Chris Evans). I don't think Cap!Sam or Cap!Bucky would receive a warm welcome.

I agree with you there but I do think a Bucky as Captain America movie could be good if it was done right. If they do decide to got that route I hope they take their time about it. I think even people who don't read the comics are going to eventually understand that RDJ and CE aren't going to do these movies forever. I'm sad about it already, but I've accepted it.

Raja

Raja

6 minutes ago, festivus said:

I agree with you there but I do think a Bucky as Captain America movie could be good if it was done right. If they do decide to got that route I hope they take their time about it. I think even people who don't read the comics are going to eventually understand that RDJ and CE aren't going to do these movies forever. I'm sad about it already, but I've accepted it.

I think the movies are different than comic books and trying to give a reason why someone else needs to wear an American flag for both the audience and to inspire international and intergalactic characters would be iffy at best. And then your lead will be accused of stealing Captain America's valor. Just let Bucky Barnes go on to be the White Wolf of Wakanda as his hero role leaving his slave villain role of Winter Soldier behind.

 

And just as Don Chedle as War Machine can't succeed RDJ's Iron Man because they are basically the same age, so are Sebastian Stan and Chris Evans if we are counting the years that they can or want to keep up the body building lifestyle for the role.

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

3 minutes ago, Raja said:

I think the movies are different than comic books and trying to give a reason why someone else needs to wear an American flag for both the audience and to inspire international and intergalactic characters would be iffy at best. And then your lead will be accused of stealing Captain America's valor. Just let Bucky Barnes go on to be the White Wolf of Wakanda as his hero role leaving his slave villain role of Winter Soldier behind.

I don't really think that's the case. I think we're at the point in the movies that more people like Bucky than don't like Bucky, and even I don't dislike him as much as it probably sounds like I do. Any ill feelings towards the character are born from frustration with the shippers and the idea that it's completely unreasonable to not be okay with him no matter what. By himself, Barnes is nothing but sympathetic, I can just do without the borderline mania on the internet about him.

Bucky as Captain America, though? Character-wise, I'm not sure he would want to try and fit that role, particularly if Steve doesn't walk off into the sunset instead of dying. There's already so much baggage in their relationship now that I don't think Barnes would willingly take up the mantle without a lot of convincing. One of the things that makes him salvageable for me is that he knows the weight of the things he's done and doesn't just shrug it off, and while Rogers isn't anywhere near as perfect as everyone who meets him acts like he is, Bucky's response to Steve telling him "What you did all those years, that wasn't you" is very telling - "But I still did it."

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Dee

Dee

(edited)

A Cap!Sam film would be pretty awesome, and also very timely; plus Mackie is gorgeous, insanely talented and ridiculously charismatic.

Also Sam would make a great Cap, because he's much closer to Steve, in both ideals and temperament.

Bucky is much better suited to remaining in Wakanda as a member of T'Challa's trusted inner circle imo.

However, I don't think either of them should become Cap. Evans has become iconic in the role ala Christopher Reeves as Superman, and as was recently said, what works in the comics-verse isn't always necessarily compatible with the MCU.

If anything though, the best idea is to pair Sam & Bucky in a buddy film, which Stan & Mackie have been advocating for for several years now. Add in cameo appearances by Natasha, Nick, Sharon, Scott/Hope and a newly cast Misty Knight and it's a virtual license to print money.

Edited by Dee
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)
1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

I knew there was a reason I loved Timothy Zahn.  

Even if he did create Mara Jade (sorry never liked her). ?

I don't want Sam or Bucky to become Captain Amerocs anymore than I want someone else to become Iron Man or Oden forbid Jane Foster to  become Thor. Honestly I think Evans and RDJ are too iconic (at least for me) to see someone else wear the suits

I'd rather Marvel dig through their bucket of D, E, F list characters and make movies on them (I trust Feige).  We still got Ms Marvel, they're (hopefully) getting all the X Related characters back (that's another 20 movies right there). I have no idea who owns the Eternals but, I'd love a movie (just don't screw it up like Inhumans). I'd also love a female team up (Widow, Hill, Shuri, Okoye, Nakia + Female Villain), they can even do a GoTG Raveger Spin-off (maybe, not really thrilled with Stallone in GOTG2).

Edited by Morrigan2575
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stealinghome

stealinghome

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Another idea could be breaking up the team, if each had to take a stone and go in to hiding or something.

oooh, I LOVE this idea. It's a great way to explain why the Phase 1 Avengers are absent moving forward, but also allows the MCU brass to bring one back for a cameo or supporting role if they want. I don't think it will happen, purely because I can't imagine either shipping the OG Avengers off to disparate corners of the universe or leaving all the stones on Earth, but I'd love to read the fanfic!

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)
12 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Ha, no worries... she was never a favorite of mine either.  But he also created Talon Karrde and I will forever adore him for that.  :-D

+ Thrawn and the Wild Karrde ?

Timothy Zahn will always have a special place (for me) just for his Star Wars Trilogy which introduced me to the Extended Universe.

Now back to Marvel...can Disney figure out a way to have a Star Wars vs MCU movie? LOL

Edited by Morrigan2575
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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

30 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'd rather Marvel dig through their bucket of D, E, F list characters and make movies on them (I trust Feige).  We still got Ms Marvel, they're (hopefully) getting all the X Related characters back (that's another 20 movies right there). I have no idea who owns the Eternals but, I'd love a movie (just don't screw it up like Inhumans). I'd also love a female team up (Widow, Hill, Shuri, Okoye, Nakia + Female Villain), they can even do a GoTG Raveger Spin-off (maybe, not really thrilled with Stallone in GOTG2).

 

There was an article a couple of months ago, which I now can't find, where Elizabeth Olsen said she'd be interested in doing a solo movie, and while I'm not sure Scarlet Witch is well-known enough by herself to carry a film, the team up with her, Nat and Okoye in IW had promise. One of the benefits of having so many worlds/universes/galaxies to explore is that once the next phase starts characters who might never have met otherwise could interact.

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Fukui San

Fukui San

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Someone on my Facebook feed hated Infinity War for reasons other than the deaths, but it raises an interesting point, since someone else asked why the movies are always so different than the comics. Because the MCU is very much it's own thing, and that's actually okay. I was never into the comics until recently, and even then only in limited doses, but I like that the films have put their own stamp on things.

Following the MCU is like following the comics by only reading the Giant Sized Annuals and company wide crossovers and ignoring the monthly comics in which an entire issue might be devoted to, say, Captain America going out on a date, doing his day job, checking in with The Avengers and tangling with someone on the level of Paste Pot Pete. Imagine if every MCU movie came with a preceding 12-18 episode Netflix series with small stories like that. For a company wide crossover equivalent like Infinity War, that would also mean separate sets of monthly series for most of the heroes. In the MCU we only get the big events and little hints at the day to day stuff like Vision and the Scarlet Witch's relationship, War Machine's rehab, Bucky's life in Wakanda, etc. It's a very compressed way to tell stories.

If I were in the Marvel braintrust, I'd propose a Marvel anthology series teaming up different supporting heroes that might not yet merit their own movie franchise. You could even have characters from the Netflix series appear and team up with movie characters. Spider Man and Daredevil is a classic pairing. Jessica Jones could have an investigation leading to an Avenger. Maybe Scarlet Witch? Luke Cage/Black Panther would be fun. You could call it "Marvel: Strange Tales" as a callback to their early days as a comic company.

Smad

Smad

9 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I have no idea who owns the Eternals but, I'd love a movie (just don't screw it up like Inhumans).

I'm pretty sure the Eternals are already in the works or at least they are rumored to be. Not surprising since the cosmic Marvel universe will branch out beyond GOTG. There is also a plan to eventually bring in Ms Marvel (aka Kamala Khan), according to Feige. And she is an Inhuman so they might be bringing them into the MCU.

11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Another idea could be breaking up the team, if each had to take a stone and go in to hiding or something. 

Someone will have to form the Infinity Watch. Would be different from the comics though. No Adam Warlock in A4. And I doubt Gamora will be the guardian of the Time Stone since that one will 100% stay with Strange.

Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

50 minutes ago, Smad said:

Someone will have to form the Infinity Watch. Would be different from the comics though. No Adam Warlock in A4. And I doubt Gamora will be the guardian of the Time Stone since that one will 100% stay with Strange.

I thought about that but the only characters i remember were Moondragon and Warlock and neither are in the MCU as yet. Of course they could be Phase 4 or 5 movies building of of Avengers 4.  We know Warlock is supposed to show up in GOTG3 (he better, after the end credit scene).

Dee

Dee

(edited)
1 hour ago, Smad said:

Not surprising since the cosmic Marvel universe will branch out beyond GOTG.

How 'big' can the MCU go before the critics turn on them?

As it stands, there's been complaints for years about the MCU's lack of stakes for/generic handling of its villains.

How can the MCU remain grounded, if the human element of the MCU is hopelessly outmatched?

Edited by Dee
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Smad

Smad

(edited)
1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I thought about that but the only characters i remember were Moondragon and Warlock and neither are in the MCU as yet. Of course they could be Phase 4 or 5 movies building of of Avengers 4.  We know Warlock is supposed to show up in GOTG3 (he better, after the end credit scene).

Drax the Destroyer (Power Gem)

Gamora (Time Gem) and after Gamora quits Maxam

Moondragon (Mind Gem)

Pip the Troll (Space Gem)

Thanos (Reality Gem)

Adam Warlock (Soul Gem)

It's not going to happen this way. I expect the Time Stone to stay with Strange. Since they will want to disperse the stones among the galaxy, my guess would be 1 stone with the Guardians, 1 with Thor and 1 with Captain Marvel (should she leave Earth again). Once the original GOTG team is done after their 3rd movie, I would suspect the stone to go to Adam Warlock. And obviously there is no way Thanos will be part of the Infinity Watch. Unless of course they find a way to destroy the stones then this is a moot point.

38 minutes ago, Dee said:

How 'big' can the MCU go before the critics turn on them?

As it stands, there's been complaints for years about the MCU's lack of stakes for/generic handling of its villains.

How can the MCU remain grounded, if the human element of the MCU is hopelessly outmatched?

 

The cosmic and Earth stuff can still stay separated and only come together for big event movies. But I'm guessing Eternals (could be movies taking place in the past) and Celestials are a given. But they are introducing vastly more powerful heroes as well to match that I guess. I never had a problem with the human element. Apparently most of the galaxy looks human or humaoid (Asguard, Xandar, Kyln, Sakaar, Ravagers, The Guardians) and the universal language seems to be English.

Edited by Smad
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Joe

Joe

49 minutes ago, Dee said:

As it stands, there's been complaints for years about the MCU's lack of stakes for/generic handling of its villains.

I'd say that Killmonger and Thanos are attempts at changing that. They're both villains that make people go, 'Hang on, he almost has a point there, if he wasn't so crazy.' No one said that about Ronan or Alexander Pierce, no matter how good their movies were.

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Dee

Dee

3 minutes ago, Joe said:

I'd say that Killmonger and Thanos are attempts at changing that. They're both villains that make people go, 'Hang on, he almost has a point there, if he wasn't so crazy.' No one said that about Ronan or Alexander Pierce, no matter how good their movies were.

Which is interesting, given how similar Pierce and Thanos goals are.

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