S07.E09: Elseworlds Part 2

[Trini]

26 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

In fact Kara seemed quite familiar with Gotham City and how it’s run. 

Apparently, Gotham sucks on every Earth.

[VCRTracking]

I'm enjoying this particular crossover because it's relatively smaller scaled, centering on just the "Big Three" of the Arrowverse. I like seeing Oliver, Kara and Barry together and the actors playing off each other in costumes or in civilian clothes.

I like that they imply Gotham City is basically like Chicago just like in The Dark Knight.

Ruby Rose was okay as both Kate Kane and Batwoman. I liked her most in her interactions with Kara. I kind of "Squeed" when she said "World's Finest" and they shook hands.

The fight between Barry and Oliver when they thought each other was Merlyn and Thawne was really cool.

I theorize the reason Bruce Wayne/Batman on Earth-1 "broke"(if that's what really happened) was because there is no Superman. That friendship in the comics is so important to both characters(when it's written well).

Barry thinking Earth-90 Flash was his dad for a moment really gave me the feels.

I always thought Diggle would make a great Green Lantern!

Edited December 11, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Trini]

Was the intro monoloque to this a recreation of the last Arrow episode, or is it kind of previewing the intro to the next episode?

Edited December 11, 2018 by Trini

[sjsyed]

I’m new here.  Years ago, I was active on TWoP, and when that died I needed to find someplace else to talk about my favorite shows.  But at that point, previously.tv was too new, and didn’t have enough activity, so I found my way on to Reddit.  That’s primarily been where I go to to talk about Arrow, but a few days ago, I remembered this place and decided to check it out again.

It is almost surreal to see how diametrically opposed the two user groups are.  Particularly with regards to Olicity.  Reddit HATES it.  Like, a lot.  Almost every episode there’s someone complaining that the “Olicity” moments ruined the episode.  

And then I come here, and everyone is in love with Olicity, and I’m getting a bit of whiplash at how abrupt the transition is.  It’s hard to wrap my head around the idea that not everyone despises this pairing.  (I never hated Olicity.  I’m not as big a fan of it as some of you are, apparently, though.)

Anyway, in terms of the episode, didn’t some of you think it was weird how... easily Felicity kissed Oliver at the end?  This guy doesn’t look like the husband she knows.  He in fact looks like her friend Barry.  Even if she believed completely that Oliver was actually Oliver, you would think that she’d at least say something like “It’s strange kissing you when you look like Barry.”  Even after Iris believed that Barry was Barry, she didn’t kiss him.  Because it’s odd.

[thuganomics85]

OK, I enjoyed how they didn't simply didn't have Barry/Grant Gustin do the opening voiceover, but even inserted him into some of the Arrow clips as well.  Well played, show.

They finally made me enjoy Diggle again, when they had him basically say "Yeah, considering all of the crazy shit I've seen, I guess this really isn't too weird" about the Oliver/Barry switch.  Just makes Team Flash come off like even bigger doofuses.  Of course, he still squandered it by not just going along with the "Keep Felicity in the dark" idea, but being so dumb about it that he doesn't even think to give Cisco or Caitlin a heads up about it.  At least commit to your dumb decisions, Diggle. 

Really though, Oliver was being a major moron by once again keeping a secret from Felicity.  Is he ever going to learn that?  I honestly wonder.  It's too bad because I did think his speech at the end was great and it looks like they're in a better place, but I can't help but wonder if he's going to just mess it up again.

Holy recon, Batman!  Iris automatically believed that "Oliver" was actually Barry?  That didn't happen in the episode I watched, Cisco/Caitlin!  Sure, she figured it out before you two did, but she still needed some major convincing until she did.  Do the writers not get the scripts from the past episodes that just aired a day ago?

This iteration of Gotham was fun, at least.  I love that Oliver seems to hate it and how it's basically the city that everyone seems to agree is the worst of the worst.

I guess Ruby Rose was alright as Kate Kane, but she was very uncomfortable as Batwoman.  I want to give the benefit of the doubt, but if they are really going to go with a full-length show, I just don't know if she has the charisma to pull it off.  I suspect it will either live or die by the writing (gulp!) and whoever ends up being the supporting cast.  They better get some heavy-hitters.

So, after doing the whole X-ray thing, was Kara's remark about Kate having more tattoos than she expected meaning that she was looking at her entire body?  Since when did Kara become a perv?!

Didn't miss Rene, Dinah, or Black Siren.  Curtis didn't bug too much, but having him and Cisco in the same show just shows how similar they are, except Cisco is way, way, I'm talking 100 times way more awesome than Curtis.

Barry's ultimate fear being the Reverse Flash checks out.  I guess Malcolm kind of makes sense for Oliver, although I would have probably gone with either Slade or Chase.  But, really, Oliver's fear is happiness.  He refuses to ever let it happen for long!

Ah, so they're going down the whole "the villain isn't actually the true villain!" route, where the Monitor is claiming he is doing this to prepare them for an even bigger threat that is to some.  Still not sure why he felt to give the book to Jeremy Davies of all people, but maybe it will make sense later on.

Oliver and Barry now being criminals and targeted by another version of Superman was a fun way to end things.

Still entertaining, although once again a lot of it was due to the chemistry between Stephen Amell, Grant Gustin, and now Melissa Benoist.  Those three clearly love working with each other.

[way2interested]

2 hours ago, sjsyed said:

Anyway, in terms of the episode, didn’t some of you think it was weird how... easily Felicity kissed Oliver at the end?  This guy doesn’t look like the husband she knows.  He in fact looks like her friend Barry.  Even if she believed completely that Oliver was actually Oliver, you would think that she’d at least say something like “It’s strange kissing you when you look like Barry.”  Even after Iris believed that Barry was Barry, she didn’t kiss him.  Because it’s odd.

Not really. In that moment, she even calls him Oliver because his speech was switch she needed to see her husband and was what she needed to hear to help their "fraught" relationship, so it was more than just "Oh, you're my husband, let's kiss," it was a reunion kiss in more ways than one. As for Iris, I fully believe they would have kissed, but the characters there were in a rush. Meanwhile, Arrow does what it always does during a time of crisis: pause to have relationship talks.

[Velocity23]

I cannot stop laughing at Grant.

[cambridgeguy]

In the previous episode:

Oliver - I'm not calling Iris my lightning rod, that's unbelievably corny.

This episode:

Oliver - Love is too small a word.

I see that he changed his mind about such things.

I hope we see a bit more of 90s Flash.  Being poofed out of existence is a lousy way to have him exit.

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, sjsyed said:

 

Anyway, in terms of the episode, didn’t some of you think it was weird how... easily Felicity kissed Oliver at the end?  This guy doesn’t look like the husband she knows.  He in fact looks like her friend Barry.  Even if she believed completely that Oliver was actually Oliver, you would think that she’d at least say something like “It’s strange kissing you when you look like Barry.”  Even after Iris believed that Barry was Barry, she didn’t kiss him.  Because it’s odd.

I guess what Oliver said and the way he was looking at her transcended any outward appearance thing.  And his speech had just been about no change getting in the way of their love.  Kissing him pretty much confirmed she felt the same.  

What I really liked was how you could see her distance at first until he won her over and then both of them had tears in their eyes.  They really brought the emotion on both sides.  And then even after the kiss is broken up, she doesn't move away from him but keeps her hand over his heart, that's what matters most to her.  This guy that looks like Barry to her has Oliver's heart.  What he looks like doesn't matter.  (Or maybe she sees it as an upgrade, we don't know, lol)

[BkWurm1]

6 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

 

I hope we see a bit more of 90s Flash.  Being poofed out of existence is a lousy way to have him exit.

Seemed kind of like a cheat.  

But then our heroes had a cheat as well, they had Kara from a different universe.  I'm surprised the Monitor didn't poof her back to her earth.  

8 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

In the previous episode:

Oliver - I'm not calling Iris my lightning rod, that's unbelievably corny.

This episode:

Oliver - Love is too small a word.

I see that he changed his mind about such things.

Oliver just needed his love language.  And well, Felicity, lol.  

[Mellowyellow]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oliver just needed his love language.  And well, Felicity, lol.  

And to not have to use the words "lightening rod" bahahahahahahaha 

Gawd that sounds dirty and not in a good way! 

[phoenics]

So did no one notice that the Big Bad Elseworlds Book writing is exactly the same as Barry's writing when he came out of the SpeedForce in S4 and what Nora has been writing in her journal and in messages to RF?

Just me?

Ok.

Edited December 11, 2018 by phoenics

[JamieLynn832002]

12 minutes ago, phoenics said:

So did no one notice that the Big Bad Elseworlds Book writing is exactly the same as Barry's writing when he came out of the SpeedForce in S4 and what Nora has been writing in her journal and in messages to RF?

Just me?

Ok.

I thought so too but the glimpse we got before it went glowy/foggy was so brief that I wasn't sure.

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I thought so too but the glimpse we got before it went glowy/foggy was so brief that I wasn't sure.

I slowed it down to be certain.  It was definitely the symbols.  I wonder if that's why Nora West-Allen was left out of the crossover - because she seems to actually understand the symbols.  Barry didn't when he wrote them (he doesn't even remember writing them or know what they mean).  And since Nora was writing the symbols to RF in a message in the last Flash ep before the crossover, it's something speedsters know.

Which makes me wonder if the Elseworlds Book is just a way to tap into the power of the Speedforce and alter reality - maybe theoretically if you could go back to the beginning of time, you could rewrite all of history to be whatever you wanted?  So the book is just a way to give regular people that power?  Power speedsters have already.  Hence why Nora wasn't there - she'd have known this (and how to stop it) and thus no need for the crossover.

Just a theory.

[way2interested]

Tbh I think Nora wasn't there (besides just bts narrative reasons) was because they didn't want to try to explain why WestAllen's kid doesn't look like "Barry" and Iris' kid. Just like how they didn't mention William at all in the Arrow episode.

That being said I hope in the next episode if Barry and Oliver have their obligatory ending bonding moment they both mention how far they've gone and how they're both dads now, since those are both big parts of both characters right now.

[Trisha]

4 hours ago, sjsyed said:

Anyway, in terms of the episode, didn’t some of you think it was weird how... easily Felicity kissed Oliver at the end?  This guy doesn’t look like the husband she knows.  

Welcome! I used to lurk on Reddit a lot and whoa do I understand about the whiplash. 

As much as I loved Oliver’s speech, the kiss was a tiny bit weird but in the no-music version that someone posted upthread you can hear her say “Oliver, hi” right before it. For some reason, that made it a bit better for me and I really wished they’d kept that in the full scene. Like as soon as she recognized it was her husband, what he looked like didn’t matter.

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

In the previous episode:

Oliver - I'm not calling Iris my lightning rod, that's unbelievably corny.

This episode:

Oliver - Love is too small a word

Oliver has a long history of saying super mushy things to Felicity. (His vows at their fake wedding still amaze me.)  But “lightning rod” is silly. 

[Starry]

I really couldn't get into this episode.

They didn't want Felicity to know about the switch because of what happened with Team Flash but they told everyone else and they had no problem so? Why is Felicity the only one who has to be kept in the dark? It was so dumb, especially when the rest of Team Arrow believed them immediately. I get that they wanted to push the we became different people and that's why Felicity didn't notice that anything was wrong angle but the logic behind Oliver's decision wasn't sound. It was plot-driven and it showed.

I find Curtis annoying. I find Caitlin spouting techno babble even more annoying. The jerky hand movements always take me out of the scene. If they wanted to use WestAllen to create a parallel/contrast/whatever they should have had Iris in the episode. Iris and WestAllen are more than a symbol.

I liked Ruby Rose as Kate Kane and enjoyed her scenes with Kara. I sympathized with Kara's frustration and was relieved when she got a break from the boys.

Considering that the newspaper reports that Barry disappears during the Crisis he should make the connection but knowing these writers he won't.

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

In the previous episode:

Oliver - I'm not calling Iris my lightning rod, that's unbelievably corny.

This episode:

Oliver - Love is too small a word.

I see that he changed his mind about such things.

I don't think Oliver would've laughed if Barry had asked him to say something heartfelt and lovely to Iris, which is what he did here. Out of context, "You're my lighting rod" is ridiculous, and I would expect that most people that it didn't have meaning to would laugh, just like if Oliver had asked Barry to call Felicity his favorite processing chip or whatever. 

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, Trisha said:

 

Oliver has a long history of saying super mushy things to Felicity. (His vows at their fake wedding still amaze me.)  But “lightning rod” is silly. 

My issue with lightning rod was that Barry had it in his tool chest as a go to move.  In his speech to her, it seemed sincere but given what he'd already told Oliver, I know it couldn't completely have been.  Or at least there was some calculation in it.  I wonder if that sort of calculation is supposed to be part of him going darker along with how they had him more prone to fight even when he didn't have to aka how he had to be told to stand down even when surrounded by police. 

Or maybe they are dropping that plot point the rest of the crossover.  Personally I think the episode got better when they shut down the "be like the other to use their powers" things.    And waaaaaay better when Oliver got to ditch the suit and powers. Reality is still messed up but I want Oliver to act like Oliver.  

[benteen]

I'm continuing to enjoy this crossover although it is a bit of a mess.

-Really didn't care for Oliver continuing to lie to Felicity and all the silly drama is caused with Team Flash and Team Arrow.  That being said, that last Olicity scene really delivered.

-Creative having Oliver faced Thawne and Barry face Merlyn, allowing both of them as well to understand the other badly.

-Really liked having Barry do the Arrow opening credits.

-I liked Ruby Rose as Kate, not so much as Batwoman.  She works well with MB though.

-Very cool seeing John Wesley Shipp back as the 1990 Flash.  I was pretty disappointed when he was vanquished so quickly but honestly, I found those bright white caps he continues to wear on his teeth to be so distracting and it's causing him to mumble all of his dialogue.

So yeah, continue to like this crossover but Legends continues to be the best show in the Arrowverse and proved it again last night.

Edited December 11, 2018 by benteen

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Seemed kind of like a cheat.  

 

Since these shows like to rip off/steal use plots from the very Superior B:TAS, Justice League/Justice League Unlimited, maybe this cheat will be like the cheat from Justice League Unlimited's "The Once and Future Thing: Time Warped" where we all thought Warhawk was killed, but he wasn't. Even Bruce Timm admitted it was a cheat. But then I have to remind myself that Bruce Timm and company weren't assholes or hacks. Okay, okay, I'll try to be positive. I'm hoping Monitor poofed '90s Barry Allen/Flash back to Earth-90. I know, I know, wishful thinking.

[phoenics]

20 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Tbh I think Nora wasn't there (besides just bts narrative reasons) was because they didn't want to try to explain why WestAllen's kid doesn't look like "Barry" and Iris' kid. Just like how they didn't mention William at all in the Arrow episode.

LOL - what?  Wait do you mean why Nora doesn't look like FakeBarry(i.e. Oliver) and Iris' kid?  Because as far as casting goes - Flash couldn't have gotten that casting of JPK as CP's Iris and GG's Barry MORE right.  Even GG and CP have talked about it.  Repeatedly - so have other people in the cast.  This is the first time I've heard anyone say she doesn't look like Barry and Iris (CP/GG), so... 

I actually think Nora not being there is important to the whole Elseworlds plotline - like Nora might be the key to solving it, hence why she's not there.  That and she's probably still talking to RF in the future?

So to recap - the symbols in the book are the same as what Barry and Nora have written (and what RF knows how to read in the future)... what does that mean for Elseworlds and the whole big bad book?

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 hours ago, Jediknight said:

My guess, in this continuity is that the murder of Jason broke him.

I refuse to believe this. He's THE GODAMN BATMAN.

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Since these shows like to rip off/steal use plots from the very Superior B:TAS, Justice League/Justice League Unlimited, maybe this cheat will be like the cheat from Justice League Unlimited's "The Once and Future Thing: Time Warped" where we all thought Warhawk was killed, but he wasn't. Even Bruce Timm admitted it was a cheat. But then I have to remind myself that Bruce Timm and company weren't assholes or hacks. Okay, okay, I'll try to be positive. I'm hoping Monitor poofed '90s Barry Allen/Flash back to Earth-90. I know, I know, wishful thinking.

I thought that's what he did - it looked like one of Cisco's breaches opened up - I don't think he's dead, I just thought Monitor sent him back.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

Wait do you mean why Nora doesn't look like FakeBarry(i.e. Oliver) and Iris' kid?  Because as far as casting goes - Flash couldn't have gotten that casting of JPK as CP's Iris and GG's Barry MORE right.  Even GG and CP have talked about it. 

I think that @way2interested meant "Barry" as in Stephen Amell's being thought of as Barry. Not Grant Gustin. Since everyone thinks that Amell is Barry and Gustin is Oliver.

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Wait do you mean why Nora doesn't look like FakeBarry(i.e. Oliver) and Iris' kid?

Yes, that's why I put Barry in quotes. JPK looks nothing like SA but looks a lot like GG and CP. The same goes for Jack Moore who plays William, he looks related to SA but doesn't look related to GG

4 minutes ago, phoenics said:

That and she's probably still talking to RF in the future?

That's the reason the press gave after watching the episode, isn't it? That's what I meant when I said "bts narrative issues." Nora wasn't in it because the story didn't need her in it, would have been too complicated with her in it, and the writers have a reason as to why she wasn't there anyway, same thing with Oliver's kid not being in it or mentioned in it.

Edited December 11, 2018 by way2interested

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I think that @way2interested meant "Barry" as in Stephen Amell's being thought of as Barry. Not Grant Gustin. Since everyone thinks that Amell is Barry and Gustin is Oliver.

Yeah - got it.

Just now, way2interested said:

Yes, that's why I put Barry in quotes. JPK looks nothing like SA but looks a ton like GG and CP. The same goes for Jack Moore who plays William, he looks related to SA but doesn't look related to GG

That's the reason the press gave after watching the episode, isn't it? That's what I meant when I said "bts narrative issues." Nora wasn't in it because the story didn't need her in it, would have been too complicated with her in it, and the writers have a reason as to why she wasn't there anyway, same thing with Oliver's kid not being in it or mentioned in it.

I didn't read or hear that about the press - I was just speculating on why she wasn't there - which I think may be a bit more telling (to the actual plot) than William not being there - because she might actually be relevant to the Elseworlds book situation... given that it's written in the same symbols she writes in (and understands).

[Trisha]

10 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

My issue with lightning rod was that Barry had it in his tool chest as a go to move

Yeah, his “it works every time” to Oliver came off a little more manipulative than the show probably intended. 

[phoenics]

18 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Yes, that's why I put Barry in quotes. JPK looks nothing like SA but looks a lot like GG and CP. The same goes for Jack Moore who plays William, he looks related to SA but doesn't look related to GG

That's the reason the press gave after watching the episode, isn't it? That's what I meant when I said "bts narrative issues." Nora wasn't in it because the story didn't need her in it, would have been too complicated with her in it, and the writers have a reason as to why she wasn't there anyway, same thing with Oliver's kid not being in it or mentioned in it.

 

Nora wasn't in it because "the story didn't need her in it", yet the book is written in HER language?  And Barry's.  And RF's?  

It's not the same as Oliver's kid - because - unless I missed something, he's not writing symbols in the same language as the book?

I feel like I've stepped in something weird here, because I've listed several show canon reasons why Nora would be relevant to this but somehow she's just the same as William?  This isn't a competition - I was honestly speculating about what might be next in the crossover and that maybe Nora could end up in it?  Or maybe it will be relevant in future Flash episodes? 

So, BTS stuff sure - but in reality I'm guessing there is a plot reason why she was excluded - and that's because her presence would solve the whole crossover problem that Barry et al are fighting right now - since she clearly knows the symbols and what they mean.  My guess would be that she'd also know the Monitor too.  Maybe this will get picked up on the Flash then.

ETA:  @GHScorpiosRule - doesn't this kinda remind you of Kronos using the belt in the JLU show (S2 I think)?  And GL mentioning an old legend about going back to rewrite history and time and Flash chiming in with similar SF theories?  I feel like this is the same - but instead of a belt - it's the book and the book is basically a key to unlocking the power of the SpeedForce's ability to rewrite time/history.  And since Nora actually understands the symbols in the book... 

Edited December 11, 2018 by phoenics

[apinknightmare]

Given the way this whole crossover has been written in the most idiotic way of NOT doing the very obvious thing to prolong the drama, I think the reason Nora wasn't included is specifically because the whole things (or chunks of it, at least) would be solved by her presence, and we can't have that.

[way2interested]

24 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I didn't read or hear that about the press - I was just speculating on why she wasn't there - which I think may be a bit more telling (to the actual plot) than William not being there - because she might actually be relevant to the Elseworlds book situation... given that it's written in the same symbols she writes in (and understands).

I guess I just disagree then (although I vaguely recall the press saying that they asked where Nora was in part one and the showrunners told them that she was still in the future), although I would agree that maybe the book situation comes back later on the Flash whenever they address Barry disappearing in the future. I just doubt in the Supergirl episode they would include Nora or address the speedforce language since they never mentioned her in part one or part 2 and Supergirl viewers wouldn't know who she is.

7 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I feel like I've stepped in something weird here, because I've listed several show canon reasons why Nora would be relevant to this but somehow she's just the same as William?  This isn't a competition - I was honestly speculating about what might be next in the crossover and that maybe Nora could end up in it?  Or maybe it will be relevant in future Flash episodes? 

Lol I never made it a competition. I was just saying that I don't think the writers would want to add Nora because it would make the story more complicated by including any of the kids of the heroes because they would have to explain why they look different 

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Given the way this whole crossover has been written in the most idiotic way of NOT doing the very obvious thing to prolong the drama, I think the reason Nora wasn't included is specifically because the whole things (or chunks of it, at least) would be solved by her presence, and we can't have that.

Also basically this. It's the same reason why Felicity wasn't just contacted immediately after Oliver realized what was going on 

Edited December 11, 2018 by way2interested

[shantown]

Y’all put a lot more weight on the book being written in the symbol language, I just assumed they wanted something futuristic looking that the audience wouldn’t actually have to (or be able to) read

[Guest]

5 hours ago, sjsyed said:

Anyway, in terms of the episode, didn’t some of you think it was weird how... easily Felicity kissed Oliver at the end?  This guy doesn’t look like the husband she knows.  He in fact looks like her friend Barry.  Even if she believed completely that Oliver was actually Oliver, you would think that she’d at least say something like “It’s strange kissing you when you look like Barry.”  Even after Iris believed that Barry was Barry, she didn’t kiss him.  Because it’s odd.

I didn't think it was weird because just by the look on her face she knew that was her Oliver once he'd told her how much he loved her. At first she was hesitant and bit awkward and then she slowly softened as she realized. I could see the change in her expression so that was enough for me. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Guest

[phoenics]

8 minutes ago, shantown said:

Y’all put a lot more weight on the book being written in the symbol language, I just assumed they wanted something futuristic looking that the audience wouldn’t actually have to (or be able to) read

I guess we'll see - but 90s Flash did mention something about getting the book, so I think it's somewhat relevant.  But nevermind.

 

41 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Given the way this whole crossover has been written in the most idiotic way of NOT doing the very obvious thing to prolong the drama, I think the reason Nora wasn't included is specifically because the whole things (or chunks of it, at least) would be solved by her presence, and we can't have that.

I agree - I just wonder if anyone will recognize the symbols - both Cisco AND Caitlin have seen them in addition to Barry, so if either of them get a chance to see the book, I'd imagine it would come up then.

But given how the speedforce literally CAN allow speedsters to rewrite history - literally time itself - with only speedwraiths to stop them - then I think the book really is relevant somehow to the speedforce, speedsters and Nora (only because she's the only one there who can read them).  That's all.

[kickingnames]

Sigh. Maybe it’s just crossover writing across the episodes that will never be up to par for me. Last night TF was obstinately dumb about believing Oliver and Barry. Tonight TA was just as dumb (thanks to Oliver, no less) about cluing Felicity in. Ugh. Also, if they’re going to reference as part of the character something that supposedly happened in the previous episode, they maybe should coordinate so that it actually happens in the previous episode. ‘Cause Iris knowing immediately didn’t. Yes, she was the first to sort of believe them. But that’s not the same thing. (Oh, who am I kidding — they probably do see it as the same.)

My suspicions were confirmed that the “strained marriage” subplot from last week was set up the way it was mainly to service the big emotional moment for Olicity in the crossover (otherwise I don’t think it would have been done that way). *facepalm* Yeah, the big moment was big and beautiful, but why must the writing make me grind my teeth in getting there?

I did really enjoy SA & GG more tonight - I think I have an easier time seeing them as “Barry” and “Oliver” without the suits. Plus, they were clearly enjoying themselves in the whole back and forth about Batman’s existence. So fun.

Kate Kane did not impress, but I don’t know that any of them (other than maybe Barry) really impressed me in their very first outing. I’m not looking for Batwoman, but if it gets picked up maybe I’ll hear good things about it later.

[apinknightmare]

5 hours ago, sjsyed said:

Anyway, in terms of the episode, didn’t some of you think it was weird how... easily Felicity kissed Oliver at the end?  This guy doesn’t look like the husband she knows.  He in fact looks like her friend Barry.  Even if she believed completely that Oliver was actually Oliver, you would think that she’d at least say something like “It’s strange kissing you when you look like Barry.”  Even after Iris believed that Barry was Barry, she didn’t kiss him.  Because it’s odd.

1. Welcome!

2. I didn't think it was weird. She'd had a lot of time to let the idea of the husband who looked like hers being swapped with the one who actually was hers sink in, so once he'd spoken to her like her Oliver and addressed their issues like her Oliver, and she'd accepted that he was her Oliver, there wasn't any reason for her to be hesitant about kissing him. I think Barry and Iris should've kissed as well - it was weird that they didn't.

[Chaser]

I’m sorry they didn’t have Felicity discover the switch on her own. I can just picture Barry trying to be Oliver and accidentally slipping in ‘lightening rod’ when he got nervous. The slow dawn of WTF on Felicity’s face would have been hilarious. 

[Delphi]

 So,  that happened, yes it did.   There were some good things.   Olicity!!!

I'm glad I was right earlier in the year that they were using Chicago for Gotham.   It works. 

I liked Kara looking awkward when Oliver was telling Barry that Batman was a myth. 

 

Umm, so I guess Oliver's speech last year was riddled with holes because apparently Bruce Wayne has left Gotham.   As well as Batman.

 It really bothers me that every time a show wants to use Gotham or it's roster they are forced to put Batman into some sort of self imposed exile.  Yeah, I'm looking at you Birds of Prey. 

I enjoyed Kara talking to Kate and I like that Barry is naive enough to think Gotham proper has any good parts, no boy,  you have to get to the estates and such.   I also like that on every single earth Gotham is a dumpster fire on the verge of collapse. 

Not nearly as bad as the first episode,  but it feels like a lot of it ended up on the cutting room floor.

[jmonique]

I don't watch "Arrow" enough to comment on any of the overarching Arrow-Olicity-related plot points, but:

1. Did Oliver-Flash really change Barry-Green Arrow's clothes during the siege on Arkham?

2. If Ruby Rose didn't have those cheekbones, she wouldn't have a career. Her acting is 95% posing.

3. I like how the trio was like "Oh, well, obviously, Oliver-Flash isn't comfortable enough speeding in and out without being detected, so of course, nobody else can. It's not like Kara's fast or anything." Same with Killer Frost (who's due for a name change, I guess, now that she's marginally cuddly?) just ... standing there rather than fighting back against the arctic air.

4. I REALLY like Grant as a badass in combat. His dance training definitely helps him pull off the fight choreography.
5. Shallow, but I really hate how they've attached Superman's cape. It looks like it's attached with a seatbelt.

Edited December 11, 2018 by jmonique

[Guest]

I just watched some Batwoman clips. Um, I liked the music during her scenes. Unfortunately, I think RR has cornered the market in cardboard cutout acting. I'm so sorry but yikes.

[Winston Wolfe]

9 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I always thought Diggle would make a great Green Lantern!

Man, in my head I can hear Diggle reciting "In Brightest Day, in Darkness Night, No Evil Will Escape My Sight..." 

Still not feeling this Crossover, but I now understand why LOT wasn't included.  Perhaps this whole trilogy can be salvaged in tonight's Supergirl episode.

Lots of fan service in this year's event, a lot of it you don't even see coming.  Have to admit I too let out a little yelp at the "World's Finest" comment.  One of my favorite DC comics as a kid, even though I was a die-hard Marvel fan.

[quarks]

I figured they left Nora out of this because a) she was kinda left on a cliffhanger in the 100th episode - a cliffhanger they didn't have time to resolve in this crossover episode (although they had time to write an Oliver/Felicity cliffhanger so we could have our usual crossover dose of Olicity drama, eyeroll, and take time to resolve that in this crossover, but moving on), and b) because Nora has a habit of mentioning future events and/or the outcome of current events, and these crossovers are complicated enough without adding that time wiggle into them.

[Quark]

I thought The Flash episode was better, but this wasn't bad. I definitely feel like there is some awkwardness between Oliver and Kara, she feels far more comfortable with Barry. I suppose Melissa Benoist and Grant Gustin have more history and have spent more time together than she has with Stephen Amell. Not to say that there interactions in the crossover aren't decent, but they could be better. It might be worth hanging out more off set maybe to build a better rapport?

Highly unimpressed with Kate Kane. She just seems so stiff. I know nothing about the comic character, is she supposed to be like this? I would have thought, as the announcement of the Batwoman show was such a big deal, that she would be someone more charismatic. Unless it's the actress, in which case Kate Kane is terribly miscast.

I find it amusing that Dinah wasn't in the episode, considering how much screen time she has been getting this season of Arrow. This is not a complaint about this episode!

Is it me, or does Oliver's voice go all high when he attempts comedy? It's a bit strange.

[Chaser]

I was almost expecting Nora because of the FFs on Arrow. We didn’t need that so I’m glad she didn’t show.

[dvil]

14 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Amell looks so uncomfortable in The Flash suit. He walks like he has a permanent wedgie.

At the most recent Heroes and Villains, Amell admitted the suit was stiff and uncomfortable and that he didn't break it in until the last day of shooting.

[kickingnames]

1 hour ago, jmonique said:

1. Did Oliver-Flash really change Barry-Green Arrow's clothes during the siege on Arkham?

It definitely looked like he did. That caught me off guard too. 

1 hour ago, jmonique said:

4. I REALLY like Grant as a badass in combat. His dance training definitely helps him pull off the fight choreography.

I agree. I wasn't sure it was gonna work, but it did. 

[mrspidey]

12 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

 

I like that they imply Gotham City is basically like Chicago just like in The Dark Knight.

There was also Tom Hardy's Bane mask on the shelf that Nora Fries searched for her dad's freeze gun. 

[popgoesculture]

13 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Re Olicity issues - There is no quick fix for their issues (the one about Oliver making unilateral decisions), only time can pass to let Oliver prove himself and make Felicity more comfortable that he won't go down that road again.

Here's the issue (one of many) that I have with the writing on this show... he keeps doing this. He hasn't shown growth since they did the whole dumb secret son thing that broke them up. (And even going back to running off to fight the League, etc.) By having Oliver do the secret deal with the FBI, and THEN to again keep something like the body swap from Felicity after apparently apologizing over and over again (and being surprised that she told Iris about it and she was really upset??), at what point am I, the viewer, supposed to believe that he respects Felicity and will tell her the important things and not just keep it to himself over and over again, playing out this plot point forever? I think time only passes so that we can temporarily forget all the times Oliver has done the same thing, and are lulled into complacency, like Felicity. Why can't the show write conflict in their relationship naturally? 

[insomniadreams88]

Rewatched the episode.

The whole keeping it from Felicity is even more ridiculous this time.

Still don't get why they bothered to have Oliver sleep with that journalist or whoever in Gotham in S2/whenever. Why was it necessary to remind viewers of his past bad choices? 

Caitlin joking they drew straws to decide who would come to talk to Felicity just reminded me that she has no one on her own show to talk to. UGH.

So Kara brings Caitlin to Arkham without any paperwork, and the nurse just goes, okay? I like the nurse, but that's weird.

I honestly don't see any reason why Nora had to be part of the crossover. Any character (if they really wanted to have SA's wife in the episode, she could've played another character) could have been in that room, and Oliver still would've exposed them to the fear toxin. Unless I missed something?

When they return to ARGUS, Barry offers to talk to Felicity as Oliver ... which wouldn't make sense since they knew Felicity knew at that point.  

I don't understand why Barry thought, "hey, if this guy's not Jay, he's my dad." It may have been understandable if he'd said, "Henry Allen?" But no, he says "Dad?" 

[KenyaJ]

3 hours ago, jmonique said:

4. I REALLY like Grant as a badass in combat. His dance training definitely helps him pull off the fight choreography.

 

Yeah, I was impressed. I don’t watch The Flash, but they should let him fight more often over there. 

Meanwhile, this entire sequence gave me life. However, I’m mad Oliver didn’t just shoot Diaz in the head. I’m so eager to watch him die, in any universe.

Edited December 11, 2018 by KenyaJ