S05.E09: Elseworlds Part 1

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why would you put that into the universe? FOR GODS SAKES, WHY!!!!?

I know, right? I had to put up with that Pink Pestilence for seven years. SEVEN YEARS plus her "return" which made me batshit crazy.

8 hours ago, Chaser said:

Secrets and lies! 

I beg your pardon. That's Sekriths and LIES!

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

See that's just it.  Barry has the potential darkness all on his own.  Why tie his downfall to him being basically corrupted by his time as GA?   

I don't think that's it.  I think it's more that GA does channel his hurt and pain into determination and ruthlessness.  Oliver IS ruthless - well, this one is - remember, he's basically batman?  So his methods of channeling into that rage and anger IS the basis of his ability to fight and keep going.  He's not a happy go lucky guy (notice how weird SA looked smiling so much?).

So I think it's less about being GA but more about Iris being worried Barry will get lost in it and forget that he always comes back to the light.  His "we're gonna send it to hell" and "you have failed this city" lines probably freaked Iris out.  

But I dunno - I didn't take it as GA-Oliver bashing - but I don't watch Arrow anymore, so... 

But the dark/light dynamic doesn't mean that Oliver is never light or Barry is never dark - but it does mean that those places are their natural states.  Oliver tends to lean toward the darkness, whereas Barry leans toward light.  Do they always stay in one place?  No.  Does Oliver never have light moments or Barry dark ones?  No.

I just didn't take any of it as bashing Oliver - more like making jokes at his expense.  It was all for comedic effect.  And I didn't think worse of Oliver from it - and actually when Lois said "deck him Barry!" I wasn't sure which one she was referring to - shooting a guy in the back and laughing about it could seem jerky too.  But I don't think Oliver came off badly - at all.

There were some weird moments in the crossover though:

1.  Oliver's reaction when Iris kissed him wasn't - wth are you doing, it was more "what if we got caught"?  So weird.

2.  Barry thinking Oliver "thought about it" with Iris - that was weird too - though I love petty, jealous Barry, lol.

3.  Even I thought it was wrong that Felicity wasn't in this at all.  And normally I think she's overused - but this wasn't right.

4.  Missed opportunity not having Iris/Lois and Kara interact as journalists.

I did squeal at the Smallville theme though.

Cornrows don't grow that far down the forehead, Monitor.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So I guess Iris learning Oliver's identity as Green Arrow has crossed him off her list of who she'd cheat with?

I'm still more peeved over how they used AMAZO. Someone still has to explain to me how Ralph, Killer Frost, Superman, Supergirl, Flash lost their powers to him, when he only replicated them? I know, I know. Stop trying to make sense out of things that don't make sense.

And again with all this shit writing, makes me SOOOO GLAD that Batman*, MY BATMAN, has never been part of this universe.

And since they're wily-nilly using heroes and characters and sets from other shows, I wouldn't find it amiss to have Smallville's Black Canary show up.

What?

And just where is Wesly Shipp's Flash? He got away, right? Otherwise we'd see Monitor annihilate him. What was the point of Earth-90 then? Other than to show Monitor? Pfft.

*I know that's an unpopular opinion and I don't mind sitting at my table for one. Especially since I was watching my Batman: The Animated Series on Blu-ray before I sat down to watch this last night. Along with Bruce Timm and Eric Radomski's interviews and the look of the early, early pilot.

[kickingnames]

I went from embarrassed, to annoyed, to borderline pissed over the course of the episode. I’m so tired of The Flash treating Oliver as if darkness and death are his only defining character traits, and that those things threaten TF’s inner circle only when he’s around. It aggravates me because people who don’t pay attention to Arrow take the implications from The Flash at face value and believe what those writers say about him. This is why I don’t get to talk to my DCTV friends about Arrow stuff, because, even when it’s treated as a joke, they still absorb and believe The Flash when those writers treat Oliver (and by extension, Arrow) as all darkness and hate and vengeance, and then they talk about how The Flash is a better, happier show. (Which it’s not, not always. It gets dark and depressing too, but somehow it doesn’t get any blame for that). Mission accomplished, Flash writers.

[Kate45]

12 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I believe Jay Garrick was Henry Allen's Earth-2 doppelganger, I assume Earth-90 Flash is too. Also because John Wesley Shipp played The Flash in the 90s tv show.

Jay Garrick is from Earth-3, but he looks like Henry Allan because the Henry from that earth is related to Jay. The Garrick family is the maternal side of Henry Allen's family, hence why Henry was sent away after being released from prison in season 2. They didn't want that connection to happen until later in the season. That story was so convoluted, lol. 

12 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Is it just me, or does Candice Patton have more chemistry with Stephen Amell in 5 minutes than she has with Grant Gustin in 5 seasons?

 

12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think you could see that CP was having fun with the crossover but I still cringed during most of her parts with SA.  It was so uncomfortable, lol.  

Cringing is a normal reaction, unless you enjoy watching Iris' affections being rebuffed by a different character. I don't. I found it to be uncomfortable, but Candice and Stephen seemed to enjoy the interactions, even if Oliver didn't.

 I'm well aware that chemistry is undefined, and completely subjective. That said, I think it's quite strange to find "more chemistry" with Stephen when he a) looked either repulsed or very surprised by her kissing him, b) begrudging told her he loved her, and c) made cringe faces when she touched him. Nothing about those instances scream chemistry, but to each his or her own. 

7 hours ago, ruby24 said:

What are you thinking of then? The one, fully clothed, single makeout scene from that third season episode that got interrupted? Cause that was literally it and it wasn't even close. Nothing since then, which is astounding. They didn't even show their first time together! I will NEVER get over that, I still can't believe it. When a show skips that, I mean...that says a LOT. I'm not sure what it was, but trust me there was a reason for that. Something behind the scenes. There is NO WAY it just didn't "occur" to them to write first time scene for a TV show's main couple. 

That is a huge, intentional, unforgivable oversight. A slap in the face. And it happened for a reason. No one can convince me otherwise. Someone behind the scenes did not want that shown onscreen.

 

I think the problem for me is that they do have that hot type of chemistry, but they never lean into it. The Iris/Flash scenes, the Iris/Savitar scene, even the burning test scene proves that they have it, but it's never taken advantage of. It's strange. I totally agree that skipping their first time was a huge mistake, and I know that it was purposely not included. I get that kids watch this show, but even a morning after scene would have been better than nothing at all. They didn't even give us that. 

Thankfully, the sweet side of their chemistry works just as well, and that's the main side the TPTB like to show. 

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

It was amusing for the first 10 minutes and then it just devolved into Oliver bashing, even by Lois Lane whe knows fuck all about this Oliver Queen.

 

I totally disagree that it all became a Oliver bashing fest, but I do find it interesting that no one is acknowledging that Oliver said the same thing that Iris said about himself just a few minutes later, but only Iris and Barry are getting the beatdown this morning. Mostly Iris as a character, and some unreasonably angry Oliver stans who are tagging Candice this morning telling her that she's the worst person on the planet and should leave the show because of lines that *Iris* said. Gotta love fandom. 

Oliver took cheap shots at Barry and Iris, too, but I guess that's cool. Very few seem to have a problem with that. 

Well, I do appreciate that you included Lois, because she seems to be getting a free pass for her words about Oliver. 

One last thing: yes, the Flash writers wrote this episode, but the concept came from Greg Berlanti, and Marc Guggenheim was the show runner. If they had an issue with the lines from Iris, they would have changed them. Perhaps, that is how they view Oliver, whether right or wrong?

It was super strange that Felicity wasn't in the episode, and it really didn't make sense that she wasn't in it. I know that budget issues were at play, but they should have given a plausible reason behind why the fastest man alive didn't go talk to his wife, but had time to visit Kara, Clark, and Lois on Earth-38. I totally think petty (bad) reasons were at play in order for Felicity to not be in a single scene.   

For the episode itself, it was better than I expected, but my expectations were on the ground, so there's that. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Kate45

[Trisha]

58 minutes ago, phoenics said:

He's not a happy go lucky guy (notice how weird SA looked smiling so much?).

I dunno, he didn't look weird at all to me. Sure, this current season of Arrow has been very dark because he spent the first 7 episodes in jail, but Oliver smiling is no longer the rare occurrence it used to be. 

The thing that I'll never understand is why they don't use these crossovers to get existing fans of one show to give the other shows a shot. The Flash has better ratings than Arrow and Supergirl, so why wouldn't TBTB be trying to tell Flash viewers "hey, you may have watched Arrow years ago but this guy has totally grown and evolved. Also, have you checked out Supergirl? She's pretty cool!" Instead we have them leaning into Oliver's old-school persona (it wasn't just Iris; Oliver himself reduced his heroism to "darkness") and Supergirl barely made an impression. 

[benteen]

I thought this episode was a lot of fun.  Granted, it felt like they were mashing a lot of things together to make it work but I liked it.  Enjoyed the "Quantum Leap" between Oliver and Barry and him telling Barry that he had to dislocate his thumb.  Loved the Smallville callbacks and Tyler continues to be a good Superman.  Looking forward to the next part though I wish this were another four-parter instead of three parts.

Stuff I didn't care for...

-Obviously how stupid they made Team Flash.  Like cartoon stupid.  With everything they've gone through, they don't believe Barry and Oliver here and actually think they're enemies?  Ridiculous.

-Elizabeth Tulloch does look a little like Teri Hatcher I thought.  Though what bothered me with is that the Arrowverse is continuing to do with the character of Lois Lane that Smallville did with her.  Talk endlessly about how great she is instead of showing us how great she is.

-Not that Oliver doesn't deserve a lot of bashing but I thought Iris (when she wasn't being out of character like the rest of Team Flash) was over-the-top with her Oliver criticism.  Especially considering that Barry and his ilk cause every single threat they have to contend with every season.  It's not heroic to be putting out your own fires, guys.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

totally disagree that it all became a Oliver bashing fest, but I do find it interesting that no one is acknowledging that Oliver said the same thing that Iris said about himself just a few minutes later, but only Iris and Barry are getting the beatdown this morning. Mostly Iris as a character, and some unreasonably angry Oliver stans who are tagging Candice this morning telling her that she's the worst person on the planet and should leave the show because of lines that *Iris* said. Gotta love fandom.

Not sure why my opinion here is being conflated with what other people on Twitter are saying to the actress.

I have no problem with Iris telling Barry!Oliver that Felicity was hurting from his unilateral decision. He had already had that issue with Felicity herself before all this happened. So that wasn't the root of my gripe.

It was the issue with the Flash writers implying at several turns that Oliver/Green Arrow is making Barry dark. When the reality is Barry has been dark before all on his own, at least in this show.

BTW, did Iris ever tell Barry that she is the one that kissed Oliver and not the other way around. I realize it was written for the comedy to have Barry jealous.  I admit I wondered if the lady doth protest too much. But that is just my thing. The show is clearly saying that Oliver is nothing like what she wants from a man which is fair enough. She might want to make sure she isn't going Darkside from kissing Oliver!

[Diapason Untuned]

2 hours ago, Trisha said:

One thing I’m really surprised at is how this keeps happening in the crossovers despite the fact that Stephen Amell is incredibly protective of Oliver. He’s always talking about how he knows the character so well that he’ll alert the writers to inconsistencies (he just gave an interview where he said he intervened about Oliver’s post-prison wardrobe & PTSD), and yet he lets stuff in the crossover slide. It’s like the Flash writers are either working off his season 1 version (him refusing to apologize, talking about being motivated by darkness) or a version we’ve never seen on any show (desperate for a drink, giggling over a broken thumb). I don’t know if it’s because Amell doesn’t have any sway with the Flash team, or if he’s just too busy during crossover filming to really think about it, but it is so very strange. 

They're working with what people who are unfamiliar with Arrow would expect from a show and character with a darker tone. 

[TV Anonymous]

12 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I miss Smallville. That was my Clark & Lois.

 

That was Lois? Wow, her resemblance with Alura is so uncanny... :-)

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

They're working with what people who are unfamiliar with Arrow would expect from a show and character with a darker tone. 

I am generally left with the impression they don't watch or even consider the other shows current plots and character arcs other than what was the last thing that happened as a reference point. I don't expect Oliver to learn a lesson because Iris tells him what was up with Felicity. Not do I expect Barry to learn a lesson about not making unilateral decisions from what Oluver did. Barry has done plenty of his own unilateral decision making.

I think Crisis on Earth X worked well because they treated is more as a one off in a way. The only connecting point t was a wedding that they were attending and that set up the plot.

This is not working so far for me because it's bringing in too much character stuff about Oliver from a writing staff that doesn't seem to know what is actually Oliver's arc which leads to poor characterization.

[adora721]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

BTW, did Iris ever tell Barry that she is the one that kissed Oliver and not the other way around. I realize it was written for the comedy to have Barry jealous.  I admit I wondered if the lady doth protest too much. But that is just my thing. The show is clearly saying that Oliver is nothing like what she wants from a man which is fair enough. She might want to make sure she isn't going Darkside from kissing Oliver!

Iris kissed her husband, Barry Allen, who she did not know wasn't really her husband. There's nothing for Iris to confess or be ashamed of for kissing her husband.  She did not know it was Oliver. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is not working so far for me because it's bringing in too much character stuff about Oliver from a writing staff that doesn't seem to know what is actually Oliver's arc which leads to poor characterization.

And that's why, as @BkWurm1 stated up thread, that the writers of all shows involved in the crossovers should have collaborated to write the scripts so the characters would be written IN character. I watch all the shows. Well, I stopped with Supergirl a couple episodes back because I HATE the main plot for this season. But that's a rant for another forum. That said, I do see a pattern of shitting on Oliver whenever he appears on this show. Not just the cross-overs. Although I think Barry was the one getting the bad guy/why should we listen to you after what you did two seasons ago when the Dominators were attempting to take over the world. And as much as I bitch and complain about the rogues gallery and plots on Arrow, I LIKE Oliver. Even when the plot dumbs him down to be dumb as a bag of rocks.

Because if it wasn't for the back door pilot for this show that aired on ARROW, the Flash writers wouldn't have a job had the pilot failed.

Edited December 10, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[Diapason Untuned]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am generally left with the impression they don't watch or even consider the other shows current plots and character arcs other than what was the last thing that happened as a reference point. I don't expect Oliver to learn a lesson because Iris tells him what was up with Felicity. Not do I expect Barry to learn a lesson about not making unilateral decisions from what Oluver did. Barry has done plenty of his own unilateral decision making.

I think Crisis on Earth X worked well because they treated is more as a one off in a way. The only connecting point t was a wedding that they were attending and that set up the plot.

This is not working so far for me because it's bringing in too much character stuff about Oliver from a writing staff that doesn't seem to know what is actually Oliver's arc which leads to poor characterization.

They're catering to what people who don't watch Arrow think of Arrow. Imagine, that you're a fan of Flash, who never or rarely watches Arrow, and all you really know about it is that it's a darker show. You go with that when writing Oliver, because otherwise you'll confuse those people who, make no mistake, make up the majority of viewers.

[benteen]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And that's why, as @BkWurm1 stated up thread, that the writers of all shows involved in the crossovers should have collaborated to write the scripts so the characters would be written IN character. I watch all the shows. Well, I stopped with Supergirl a couple episodes back because I HATE the main plot for this season. But that's a rant for another forum. That said, I do see a pattern of shitting on Oliver whenever he appears on this show. Not just the cross-overs. Although I think Barry was the one getting the bad guy/why should we listen to you after what you did two seasons ago when the Dominators were attempting to take over the world. And as much as I bitch and complain about the rogues gallery and plots on Arrow, I LIKE Oliver. Even when the plot dumbs him down to be dumb as a bag of rocks.

Because if it wasn't for the back door pilot for this show that aired on ARROW, the Flash writers wouldn't have a job had the pilot failed.

Considering the shows are all part of the same universe and that they work so closely together, there is absolutely no excuse for them not to collaborate more closely during these crossovers.  None whatsoever.

In fairness though, the Arrow writers have a long history of writing their characters to fit their scripts and not writing their scripts to fit their characters.  So really, when I think about it, the Flash writers ARE writing Oliver correctly.  With no consistency whatsoever.

[Starfish35]

10 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

otherwise you'll confuse those people who, make no mistake, make up the majority of viewers.

Majority?  How do you figure that?

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, benteen said:

In fairness though, the Arrow writers have a long history of writing their characters to fit their scripts and not writing their scripts to fit their characters.  So really, when I think about it, the Flash writers ARE writing Oliver correctly.  With no consistency whatsoever.

The Flash writers do the same thing with their characters. EXHIBIT FUCKING A: Caitlin Snow/Killer Frost.

[Kate45]

Why are y’all skipping over the fact that Marc Guggenheim, the former show runner of Arrow and current consulting producer, was the show runner and executive producer of the crossover???

Does he not know the character either? I know he wasn’t popular with parts of the fandom, so may that is the case.

If he didn’t like the lines, he had the power to change them. Perhaps, that *is* how he sees Oliver. Just a thought. 

@catrox14 My goal wasn’t to conflate your opinions with that of the others I have seen on Twitter, so I apologize if that’s how it came off. I was actually pleased that you mentioned Lois’ statement, because I think most are giving her a free pass and dumping on Iris for what she said.

Generally, I think the outrage about what Iris said is overblown, because Oliver said the same thing about himself just minutes later. So, it would seem that Iris does know him well or else why would he say the same thing? But, it’s not being taken that way, and is being used as a way to put down Iris, which ignores that Oliver said the same thing. That’s all. 

[Quark]

Overall, it wasn't bad.

I don't think we have ever seen Oliver laugh like that ever, which was interesting to see. Not sure how well it played though. I think Barry worked far better as the Green Arrow than Oliver did as The Flash. I do find it odd that the only way to be one or the other is to be filled with happiness or darkness for The Flash and Green Arrow respectively. I rolled my eyes at that.

Sherloque is so irritating, probably one of the most irritating characters in the Arrowverse along with Curtis on Arrow.

I also think Kara works far better with Barry than with Oliver. The actors seem more comfortable too.

Superman was great, Lois felt a bit pointless.

LOVED hearing the Smallville theme tune. That brought back memories.

[SimoneS]

25 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Because if it wasn't for the back door pilot for this show that aired on ARROW, the Flash writers wouldn't have a job had the pilot failed.

 

So The Flash writers' owe Arrow? I don't get this. These shows are produced by the same company and profits the same company which was the reason for the backdoor pilot and all these annoying crossovers. I highly doubt the writers sit around thinking that they owe anyone other than Greg Berlanti and the WB for their jobs. As for using the Arrow for the backdoor pilot, given The Flash has always been one of CW's highest rated show with a tier1 DC superhero, it is unlikely that the pilot would have flopped either way.

Ultimately, any beef that fans have with the writing is on Berlanti and the new showrunners. They sign off on the scripts. Fans who have a beef with the dialogue about Oliver should attack them, not the actors.

Edited December 10, 2018 by SimoneS

[Diapason Untuned]

14 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Majority?  How do you figure that?

I doubt the majority of fans watch both shows religiously. Most of the people in this thread don't, so why would more casual viewers do that?

[Chaser]

13 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

Why are y’all skipping over the fact that Marc Guggenheim, the former show runner of Arrow and current consulting producer, was the show runner and executive producer of the crossover???

Does he not know the character either? I know he wasn’t popular with parts of the fandom, so may that is the case.

If he didn’t like the lines, he had the power to change them. Perhaps, that *is* how he sees Oliver. Just a thought. 

Look at the credits. MG didn’t have a part in this hour. 

[Trisha]

26 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

They're catering to what people who don't watch Arrow think of Arrow. Imagine, that you're a fan of Flash, who never or rarely watches Arrow, and all you really know about it is that it's a darker show. You go with that when writing Oliver, because otherwise you'll confuse those people who, make no mistake, make up the majority of viewers.

But there's got to be a happy medium between catering to the expectations of people who don't watch the other shows, and totally confusing the people who do. Even though the 'Oliver is dark while Barry is a ball of sunshine' is pretty oversimplified if you watch the shows (I actually gave up on The Flash for a stretch because I found Barry too weepy), I think you can do some broad strokes character work that gets across their differences clearly. And there were things that did work well last night (Oliver not being down with all the hugging/pep talks/"touch is your love language" stuff, while Barry approaching everything new with genuine enthusiasm/curiosity). But then you have Oliver talking about darkness being the motivating force for his heroism, and it sticks out like a sore thumb to Arrow fans who are thinking "wait, didn't we resolve this in season 5"? The writers should be able to make non-fans understand the other characters without betraying what fans know about them.

The Flash writers have a history of this though, even in non-crossover episodes. Every time Felicity is in Central City I find her nearly unrecognizable.

[jmonique]

I still don't understand how ANYBODY in the cast and crew thinks Sherloque Wells is working. NOT ONE PERSON is like: "yeah, we need to lose this character, ASAP"?

Beyond that, I just find myself wishing every year that the writers could bring a quarter of the fun and humor to the weekly episodes that they display in the crossover episodes. 

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

o, it would seem that Iris does know him well or else why would he say the same thing? But, it’s not being taken that way, and is being used as a way to put down Iris, which ignores that Oliver said the same thing. That’s all. 

Iris doesn't know him well.  She was telling Barry about Felicity's predicament and it was Iris' take on the whole thing that is really much more complex in total over on Arrow. Which is why I prefer they leave out any "characterization" matters from these crossovers in general.  

 

37 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Iris kissed her husband, Barry Allen, who she did not know wasn't really her husband. There's nothing for Iris to confess or be ashamed of for kissing her husband.  She did not know it was Oliver. 

I wasn't clear on what I meant. Sorry.   I'm not having a go at Iris on this point. I'm having a go at the writing for using Iris kissing her husband to set up a completely unnecessary Barry is jealous and accusing Oliver.  Iris kissed who she believed was her husband and that's totally reasonable.  The problem is that Barry went after Oliver about it over something he didn't do  and they didn't give any of the 3 the chance to say, look, Iris kissed me because she though I was you and that's not on her and it's not on me, so stop being jealous, Barry.  That was more my point :)

[shantown]

My thoughts as a regular Supergirl viewer, part-time Flash viewer, and crossovers-only Arrow viewer: This was fun. Incredibly stupid, but fun. I always assume the crossovers to be a separate entity from the shows themselves - people will seem a little out of character and plots will seem a little forced because they are cramming together three shows and three casts that don't normally interact and have very different writing styles/tones/whatever. But if you take them just as a mashup movie they can be mindless fun to watch and enjoy. I also think the actors themselves have a really good time doing them, as many have said in interviews or behind-the-scenes videos. As someone who likes a lot of the cast as much as I like the show itself, it's fun to see them doing something a little different and getting to interact more and play off different people for once. I'm also waiting to reserved judgement until all three parts of the crossover air. Maybe it gets so stupid it can't be fun, but maybe we do get some good stuff before returning to our regularly scheduled programming!

(side note: I also don't usually don't notice, let alone care, when they use the same warehouse or set on multiple shows, so maybe my whole opinion is worthless on these forums anyway)

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

Look at the credits. MG didn’t have a part in this hour. 

Well, they have gone around claiming that he was the show runner for this crossover, so that means he still had some part of the scripts and bringing this vision to life. Even if you don't write the episode, if you are the show runner, you have the final say. That's the point. 

[Chaser]

Based on the actual credits, I’m assuming he hyped up his role in the crossover. I’m not saying he had no part in the hour, cause they would have all had to discuss the crossover, I’m just saying his creditable contribution was in Arrow/SG. 

[athelyna]

I found it fun at first, but it's definitely one where the more I reflect the more the stupidity and inconsistencies jump out at me.  Cisco the genre savvy doesn't think to do the if you really swapped bodies tell us something only you would know thing?  As soon as Oliver realizes he's in Barry's house with Barry's wife and there is something weird going on doesn't know to pull a fake hey Oliver just texted me and wants to talk and I need to get to Star City?  Did nobody contact Felicity?  I hated the joking at the end about not switching them back - they're obviously worried and they both have wives.  At least I think they do, since if you only watch Arrow from the crossovers you have no way of knowing if Felicity is still around this episode.

I haven't really been keeping up with any of the shows.  I haven't been able to get into Flash this season, and gave up on Arrow about 2 seasons ago, and am still on the side of finding the writing making Oliver all "I'm powered by darkness and angst" annoying.  

Bitsie Tulloch as Lois startled me - I think she did okay, but have a hard time seeing her as anything other than her Grimm character(s).  I do like this universe's version of Superman.

I think I have to go with since this is title Elseworlds, it's not actually part of the main series and that's why there are some many odd character moments and plot inconsistencies.  At least the cast seemed to be having fun.

[VCRTracking]

I give the writing of the various characters a pass for a crossover. It's like how Laverne & Shirley was first introduced in Happy Days as this pair of tough girls constantly arguing and fighting. Then when they got their own spinoff there was much less of that with them being BFFs Shirley was much more meek but whenever they would guest appear on Happy Days later or there would be an occasional crossover between the two shows they'd fighting again because that's how Happy Days viewers remember them.

I'm waiting if we're going to have angry Flash/Barry fans after tonight.

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And again with all this shit writing, makes me SOOOO GLAD that Batman*, MY BATMAN, has never been part of this universe.

 

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

*I know that's an unpopular opinion and I don't mind sitting at my table for one. Especially since I was watching my Batman: The Animated Series on Blu-ray before I sat down to watch this last night. Along with Bruce Timm and Eric Radomski's interviews and the look of the early, early pilot.

But even that Batman was different in various animated shows. The Batman of TAS was not exactly the same in Justice League.

Edited December 10, 2018 by VCRTracking

[adora721]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Considering the shows are all part of the same universe and that they work so closely together, there is absolutely no excuse for them not to collaborate more closely during these crossovers.  None whatsoever.

We've had an ongoing discussion in the media thread about the lack of collaboration and coherence between the CW/WB and its Marketing Dept. It looks like that problem is pandemic to its Arrowverse shows as well. Pehaps part of the problem is that the writing teams act like competitors instead of collaborators during the crossovers. And Berlanti allows it to continue.

[VCRTracking]

52 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Pehaps part of the problem is that the writing teams act like competitors instead of collaborators during the crossovers. And Berlanti allows it to continue.

Ah, the Lorne Michaels' approach to showrunning.

The fans of each show are competitive, but the writers can't be?

Edited December 10, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Writing Wrongs]

When they kept mentioning Ivo and Amazo, all I could think about was Season 2 of Arrow. Is there a connection to that?

[SimoneS]

9 hours ago, adora721 said:

 Pehaps part of the problem is that the writing teams act like competitors instead of collaborators during the crossovers. And Berlanti allows it to continue.

 

9 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The fans of each show are competitive, but the writers can't be?

I don't think that the writers being competitive. Rather I think the writers on each show are concerned the main plots on their show stay on track which is why they insert dialogue to lay the groundwork for ongoing plots that might seem contradictory or inconsistent to the crossover or other shows. Besides it isn't like the writers just write whatever they want for the crossovers, they have notes and storyboards that guide the dialogue and action. All the things that some fans are complaining about could have been addressed by whoever Berlanti and the showrunners, but they obviously didn't have a problem with them. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by SimoneS

[marcee]

I watch all three. I agree that the characterizations were off and the plot was stupid, but damned if I didn't enjoy the hell out of it anyway. I giggled. A lot. There was so much funny and it played, to me at least, that the actors were having fun together.

I found the Supergirl/Superman section the slowest and most boring part of the show; I thought the Lois actress looked way too old for the Clark actor and it bugged me throughout their scenes together.

I love the way Flash and GA worked together - nearly all their scenes made me smile.

I'm all in for any and all present and future crossovers.

Edited December 10, 2018 by marcee

[Delphi]

"Are you puffing out your chest?"

"... yes. "

I'm dead.   As someone who doesn't watch the flash and only occasionally watches Supergirl,  it was okay.   Parts were fun and funny,  but to enjoy it I have to consider it a elseworlds...elseworlds story.   Like, completely isolated from actual canon,  because the characters aren't acting like themselves. 

[bettername2come]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It was amusing for the first 10 minutes and then it just devolved into Oliver bashing, even by Lois Lane whe knows fuck all about this Oliver Queen. 

I will say that Oliver/Stephen's face when she said that made it almost worth it. Just no idea where all this animosity came from. 

10 hours ago, Trini said:

I think there were several reasons. I wish they had done a had done a straight up Elseworlds story where Barry and Oliver were switched, or everyone was playing a different character.

I was hoping they'd have switched things so that Barry Allen was the one who became Green Arrow and Oliver The Flash. Then we still could have them in different costumes, they could have played with some of the team dynamics and backstories and still had people think they were crazy.

 

I'm rewatching and I just realized Clark had been about to tell Kara something involving love when they were interrupted by Barry and Oliver's arrival. I think he's about to propose to Lois. Although, I honestly was hoping they were already married and it just hadn't come up. Also, I think I was too harsh on the Lois actress yesterday. She's better than Kate Bosworth in the role. 

[phoenics]

Having said my piece about the weird parts - I still found this crossover entertaining.  I'm sure tonight's episode will upset me (the Arrow versions usually make me feel ill), but oh well.  I enjoyed last night - even with the inconsistencies... and the gentle Oliver ribbing only made him slightly more sympathetic to me - not less.

I feel like the Iris criticism is infinitely overblown.

I loved the WA interactions - Barry imploring Iris to believe him... and then that scene at the end when he ran his hands down her arms... Jesus - that's some chemistry right there.  I think I held my breath that entire scene.  I wish there had been a kiss but ... meh.

For Arrow fans - the "light" piece with Barry vs Oliver was a bit hard to swallow too - Barry isn't all light - though I do think he tends to default back toward light, while Oliver defaults to the dark.  This episode did make him look like a little curmudgeon though - but I think it came from a desire to do something funny, not be mean toward Oliver.  In the Dominators crossover, Barry was dragged from here to eternity repeatedly for Flashpoint.  And there was a semi-drag for him even in this crossover (Oliver assuming Barry jacked up time when the episode started AND Cisco throwing shade about the timeline when he was checking out Barry!Oliver's vitals).  In this crossover, Oliver was taken to task (not really) for the whole prison thing and Felicity's feelings about it.  And presented as more the darkness to Barry's light.  I guess I just don't see them bashing Oliver?

The writers just reverted to the normal archetypes about each character that most casual fans resonate with.

I wonder if they had had Felicity on the show - would that have helped at all - it was really weird to me that she wasn't there - when she used to be such a favorite.  

[SimoneS]

32 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I loved the WA interactions - Barry imploring Iris to believe him... and then that scene at the end when he ran his hands down her arms... Jesus - that's some chemistry right there.  I think I held my breath that entire scene.  I wish there had been a kiss but ... meh.

I thought the Barry/Iris scenes were the best part of the episode. 

[Mellowyellow]

Finally caught up on this ep. 

This was very poor by crossover standards. I didn't care for the random irrelevant characters like that bitchy Lois. The other crossovers had a sense of excitement, of something big. This was like "Who are you and why are you in this scene where are my favs?"

Guess that's all reflected in the abysmal ratings. 

Is there some animosity between GG and CP? I didn't mind the WA scene but GG looked angry in it rather than loving. Why was there like a mile between them and what was up with the lame hand touch even though they were spouting loving dialogue? Are they refusing to hug? Heck even a default forehead kiss would have looked better. Anyways I like GG and thought he was fun for most of the ep but I'm flabbergasted as to why he looked so sour in that WA scene. 

[phoenics]

8 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Finally caught up on this ep. 

This was very poor by crossover standards. I didn't care for the random irrelevant characters like that bitchy Lois. The other crossovers had a sense of excitement, of something big. This was like "Who are you and why are you in this scene where are my favs?"

Guess that's all reflected in the abysmal ratings. 

Is there some animosity between GG and CP? I didn't mind the WA scene but GG looked angry in it rather than loving. Why was there like a mile between them and what was up with the lame hand touch even though they were spouting loving dialogue? Are they refusing to hug? Heck even a default forehead kiss would have looked better. Anyways I like GG and thought he was fun for most of the ep but I'm flabbergasted as to why he looked so sour in that WA scene. 

Wow - I didn't get an ounce of animosity from GG - all I got was angst.  I thought that was a great scene.

Chemistry really is relative - wow.

Also - about the ratings - the crossover episode gave The CW its highest Sunday ratings ever - probably due to some Flash fans coming over, since it's higher than Supergirl's normal ratings on that day... I wonder if they didn't advertise enough or people forgot?  Sure, it's lower than last year's crossover, but all ratings across the network are down across all shows (and tv in general)... so... 

Edited December 10, 2018 by phoenics

[Velocity23]

it is straight up bashing of Oliver. And it happens every crossover. He is only good enough for the flash characters and writers when Barry needs help with eobard. Otherwise he is just a tool for the flash writers to use to establish how superior Barry is to Oliver.

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Why was there like a mile between them and what was up with the lame hand touch even though they were spouting loving dialogue? Are they refusing to hug? Heck even a default forehead kiss would have looked better.

Because for most of the episode, Iris believes she's married to Barry Allen who has Oliver's face all these years. Just a few things about him and them to convince her that HE is her Barry won't make her hug and kiss him. Because right now, memories of her marriage and relationship aren't with the real Barry. If that makes sense.

[phoenics]

Just now, GHScorpiosRule said:

Because for most of the episode, Iris believes she's married to Barry Allen who has Oliver's face all these years. Just a few things about him and them to convince her that HE is her Barry won't make her hug and kiss him. Because right now, memories of her marriage and relationship aren't with the real Barry. If that makes sense.

It totally makes sense - I thought that scene with Barry and Iris was so emotionally charged - I literally held my breath the whole scene.  I would have liked a kiss too, but I realized that Iris probably would've bolted (and I already hear the screams of folks bashing her for kissing realBarry TOO soon had she kissed him).

Also - I thought Team Flash's reaction initially made sense.  They were confused - but came around pretty fast - at Iris' direction... it's not like they took a whole episode or days to finally believe something was up.  Also if they'd believed too soon, it would have felt weird - to me at least.

Spoken as a Flash fan, I feel like some of the Arrow fans are unfairly dumping on it.  Especially when you realize that Barry got slammed too in the episode, as much as Oliver did...  I just don't get the reaction.  I hear what folks are saying, but then when I add up the bashes on Barry, they were pretty much the same.  It's The Flash, so of course Barry would get more scenes and with Iris too to flesh out how this impacted him.  I bet in the Arrow episode, Oliver gets that too?

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Because for most of the episode, Iris believes she's married to Barry Allen who has Oliver's face all these years. Just a few things about him and them to convince her that HE is her Barry won't make her hug and kiss him. Because right now, memories of her marriage and relationship aren't with the real Barry. If that makes sense.

That makes sense and it's not CP I took issue with in that scene. She was fine and conveyed more affection than Barry.

My beef is with GG who as real Barry should have looked more loving imo since he misses Iris and wants her to see him as Hubs again. He should have been the one to be more affectionate instead he seemed pretty sour to me. 

[phoenics]

7 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

That makes sense and it's not CP I took issue with in that scene. She was fine and conveyed more affection than Barry.

My beef is with GG who as real Barry should have looked more loving imo since he misses Iris and wants her to see him as Hubs again. He should have been the one to be more affectionate instead he seemed pretty sour to me. 

Can you elaborate?  Because I really thought he was very affectionate?  I guess I missed whatever you're speaking of - I took it as angst and I melted when he ran his hands down her arms.  I guess where I saw angst and pining/longing, you saw "sourness"?  

[lemotomato]

18 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Also - about the ratings - the crossover episode gave The CW its highest Sunday ratings ever - probably due to some Flash fans coming over, since it's higher than Supergirl's normal ratings on that day... I wonder if they didn't advertise enough or people forgot?  Sure, it's lower than last year's crossover, but all ratings across the network are down across all shows (and tv in general)... so...

It’s not like it was a Supergirl episode that got boosted to the ratings Flash gets. It was a Flash episode that got middling ratings even compared to regular Flash episodes from this season (pretty sure Flash has gotten several 0.7s). 

[SevenStars]

The way this cross-over is being done so far feels like the writers feel obligated to do a cross-over and they are not excited or happy about it. It feels like an obligation, instead of a group of writers excited to play with each other and characters from other shows.

This episode was so shallow and lack any real depth but at times it felt like the writers were trying to add depth to it, especially the WA scene. The WA scenes only work because of the actors, CP&GG did the best they could with the script, especially CP. Speaking of CP&GG acting together, I disagree with those who think they don't have hot/sexy chemistry. CP/GG have that chemistry when GG is acting like Savitar or Idgaf Flash in S1. The energy between GG&CP during those scenes is totally different then when they are playing WA. So it's clear they can bring it but it's also clear the writers or someone higher up don't want them to bring it cause they want the audience to see Barry Allen as "innocent & pure" and as a result WA is chaste af. Base on how GG take any opportunity to show Barry/WA has a sexually side, I think GG might not be all abroad this chaste af WA train,  lol. 

The statements about Oliver didn't seems bashing to me, it seems like they were trying to show the difference between the characters. Which honestly, I think was stupid because it was clear the characters were different, there was no need for the writers TELLING us. It was unnecessary but I also think it might have been done clumsily to set the stage for the up coming WA arc or Olicity's part of the cross-over. 

This was an okay start to the cross-over and this was an okay end for the cross-over because it's the end for me. I only watch Flash, I'm not a fan of the cross-overs and Iris' part is done, so I'm good not watching the rest. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by SevenStars

[Starry]

39 minutes ago, phoenics said:

It totally makes sense - I thought that scene with Barry and Iris was so emotionally charged - I literally held my breath the whole scene.  I would have liked a kiss too, but I realized that Iris probably would've bolted (and I already hear the screams of folks bashing her for kissing realBarry TOO soon had she kissed him).

I didn't mind that there was no kiss. I liked how tentative he was being with the slow touch and I believe they would have kissed if Cisco hadn't interrupted them. He was looking at her lips before he got called away. Angsty and charged are adjectives I would use to describe it as well. Angry? Not at all. I guess people see what they want to see..

I don't know, there were a couple lines that shaded Barry and even WestAllen. Oliver laughed at the lightning rod thing, it's obvious he saw it as something ridiculous and of course there was the whole Barry being incompetent without the help of sappy motivational speeches that are usually delivered by his wife. In my experience antis have used those things to bash Barry, Iris and the show. The writers sorta validated them through those lines.

The ratings are on par with the rest of the season but if I remember correctly Flash didn't get a major boost from the crossover last year either and the episode aired on Tuesday as usual. There were other s4 episodes that had better ratings. I could be wrong but I predict Arrow and Supergirl will improve their ratings. These crossovers don't help Flash as much as they do the other shows.

[Cekrypton1]

One thing that this crossover has made apparent is  how long Grant Gustin's face is, and how round Stephen Amell's head is, because SA looked hilariously ridiculous in the Flash suit/cowl. He was like a lollipop. My wife was like, "Is that Simon Pegg dressed as the Flash?"