S01.E02: Red Flags and Parades

[preeya]

11 hours ago, Pickles said:

Why in the world would you keep $80k in cash? Even in the event of an earthquake or whatever, I wouldn't feel comfortable with more than $1000 in cash in the house. 

 

 

In this era, no one needs cash unless you're buying or selling drugs. Plastic is the new $$$.

[preeya]

Just watched #2. Connie Britton playing a "ditz" to the max and Eric Bana totally nails it as a "scumbag." Too bad this is a true story because it seems weird commenting as if it is a made for TV drama.

Edited December 4, 2018 by preeya

[Starlight925]

1 hour ago, Mr. Minor said:

Eric Bana is doing great! Two episodes in and I want John to die a horrible death.

Eric Bana is awesome!

On the podcast, there are 3 bonus episodes (this is not a spoiler), and he's interviewed.  First of all, he's doing an amazing American accent, as his natural Australian accent is really strong!

Re:  Him standing there, eating a sandwich while Toby calls him out at the doorway:  Production came up with that during filming.  Like, I could not care less what you're saying Toby.  I'll just stand here and eat a sandwich, and you can say whatever you want.  Eric Bana plays this part really well, as we really do believe he's this calculating, manipulative, but extremely charming, guy.

Just watching him on the floor, handing out candy canes to those kids, was chilling.

Him wearing the wedding ring, insisting on it, really hit home for me.  My ex (my own Dirty John, ugh) was someone I let go of, when I saw the signs Debra is seeing now.  So mine didn't get "into" my life, my finances, thank goodness, but he tried.  Immediately after our breakup, he found a new "source", and she spent thousands and thousands of dollars on him, as he charmed her.  He started posting Facebook pictures of him wearing a wedding ring, even though they weren't married.  He wanted to show her his "true commitment".  He wanted to do this with me, but I refused to allow him to wear it.  It's a way of showing "oh honey, I'm so into you, I can't live without you.  Now where did you say you had that cash again?"

Edited December 4, 2018 by Sterling

[Ohwell]

8 minutes ago, Sterling said:

Re:  Him standing there, eating a sandwich while Toby calls him out at the doorway:  Production came up with that during filming.  Like, I could not care less what you're saying Toby.  I'll just stand here and eat a sandwich, and you can say whatever you want.  Eric Bana plays this part really well, as we really do believe he's this calculating, manipulative, but extremely charming, guy.

All I could think of (besides wanting to punch him) when he was standing there casually stuffing his face was that Debra was paying for the food.  And the smoothies.

[mythoughtis]

5 hours ago, 2727 said:

I'm curious to find out where John's salary is going. Nurses/nurse anesthetists in L.A. should earn decent enough money. I suppose his drug use doesn't help, or perhaps he has legal bills.

I believe the scene with the client who doesn’t recognize Johns name from her husbands workplace is meant to imply that he doesn’t actually work there.   So my question is - where did the $10,000 come from. 

I believe Grandma is also one of those women that thinks you must have a man to be whole.  A grandma of a woman married 4 times should understand why her granddaughter thinks new boyfriend should hang back away from the kids. 

FYI- threatening to kill your wife’s daughter is uncool. Even more so when she lost her sister to domestic violence.  Yet no red flags go up? 

Edited December 4, 2018 by mythoughtis

[mythoughtis]

Tony told John  what he knew because he thought John would just leave since someone knew.  

[BusyOctober]

I’m confused... I get that Toby is Debra’s nephew.  What was the deal with his father??? He shot Toby’s mom?  And that guy at the church was Debra’s ex-BIL??? And Debra’s mom went over to hug him? The same one who shot his wife??  As stupid as Debra seems to be, I guess it would make sense that her own mother is as stupid to keep a relationship with the guy who shot his wife (her own daughter?). Someone  please help me get this side story straightened out!  

I love Connie Britton in general, but this Debra Dum-Dum character is making it hard to keep the love going.  And the two daughters are raving nightmares!  Between their entitled, bitchy attitudes and the nasal, high pitch vocal fry, I am ready to claw out my eardrums.  I never heard the podcast, but per several posters here who have, I guess the actresses are matching up pretty accurately with the real Debra Dum-Dum’s daughters. I couldn’t be in the same room with either of them for more than a minute. God have mercy on anyone who has to have a conversation with them!

[2727]

I'm SO curious about what happens! There have been many, many Dateline and Lifetime episodes over the years about bigamists, liars and con men/women, and I can't even imagine what makes this one rise to the level of a dedicated podcast and miniseries. It seems like John is following the typical con man MO so far. We know from the episode threads here that 

Spoiler

Debra, the two girls, and the grandmother survive whatever it is he does.

Either way, I'm hooked!

Edited December 5, 2018 by 2727

[Laurie4H]

I think this is really good.  The part with the her nephew going to the house to confront John was a bit Lifetime though....I’m glad they they didn’t go full Lifetime movie and have him go into the house to confront him and then turn his back to leave only to be hit on the head.   

[preeya]

10 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

I love Connie Britton in general, but this Debra Dum-Dum character is making it hard to keep the love going.

 

Keep in mind, we are not watching a made for TV drama. Debra was a real, living person and I'm sure CB is portraying her in the best possible way she can. I don't know how much liberty Bravo has taken with the fictionalized portion of the story, but this shit really happened in real life. 

[BusyOctober]

Preeya- I know there is a real Debra, and while I'm sorry for the trauma she & her family experienced, I still think the real Debra was woefully dumb when it came to men/relationships.  Of course, we are seeing a dramatized interpretation of her story, and I'm sure somethings have been "TV-ized".  Many of us have also seen or heard about "Dirty John" on Dateline/48 Hours/ podcast, so we have the privilege of 20/20 hindsight to remind ourselves we wouldn't be as "dumb".

[preeya]

3 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

Preeya- I know there is a real Debra, and while I'm sorry for the trauma she & her family experienced, I still think the real Debra was woefully dumb when it came to men/relationships.  Of course, we are seeing a dramatized interpretation of her story, and I'm sure somethings have been "TV-ized".  Many of us have also seen or heard about "Dirty John" on Dateline/48 Hours/ podcast, so we have the privilege of 20/20 hindsight to remind ourselves we wouldn't be as "dumb".

I totally agree. So why the criticism of Connie Britton's portrayal of Debra. She has likely been told to portray her in that manner by TPTB.

[Neurochick]

I just watched this episode last night, I have listened to the podcast, I know how this ends, but I'll keep this post about the episode.  

Though I think Debra was a bit dim, I don't think she was stupid.  When John mentioned the Gambino crime family, Debra had no idea what he was talking about.  Some people have knowledge only of what they need to know and that's it.  That's how Debra comes across to me.

I think she fell for John because he was a well spoken, (with no vocal fry or upspeak) intelligent, white male who probably studied her enough to know that what she wanted was for a man to do for her.  When Debra was talking with her mother, at the end of the episode, she mentioned how all other men she dated would say to her, "if you'd told me I would have done it."  Debra didn't want to have to tell anybody what to do for her, she wanted them to know, which doesn't make sense as nobody is a mind reader.  What John would do for Debra in the morning, having her juice ready for her, making sure the shower was the right temperature, even putting the toothpaste on her toothbrush, were things that a queen would have done for her, and if Debra thought of herself as a queen, it makes sense.

Also, remember that in the US, white men get very good promotion.  If a white man says he's a doctor, most will believe him (as opposed to what happened to a black woman doctor on a plane, when she tried to help a passenger and she wasn't believed).  So if you've got good promotion on your side, you're pretty much golden and people will see the best in you, even if it's not deserved.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Neurochick

[Laurie4H]

On 12/3/2018 at 8:29 AM, 2727 said:

It's likely John had to use his real name in order to maintain his nursing license, but what gall! Our personal info is so easily available now via public records searches ... how could he possibly think he'd get away with such easily discovered lies?! Not to mention Debra's social/business circles and her familiarity with other physicians.

Some lies are discovered and people are so good and coming up with a story that they are believed.  I had a friend who met someone online who lied to her and said he was divorced....I did some research for her and found he was married.  She asked him about it and he told her he that he is getting divorced....she again believed him.  Later found out he had no intention of getting divorced....she still made excuses for him.

[TV Diva Queen]

22 hours ago, Gem 10 said:

83 thousand for the shack and 80 thou in the bag.  Business must be good.

And don’t forget the bag itself. Nice Gucci zombie apocalypse bag....

[QuinnM]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Though I think Debra was a bit dim, I don't think she was stupid.  When John mentioned the Gambino crime family, Debra had no idea what he was talking about.  Some people have knowledge only of what they need to know and that's it.  That's how Debra comes across to me.

I do think that some of what we need to know is so subtle that you really have to watch this hard. First the patients experiencing pain after surgery.  The nurse it’s the raised eyebrow.  At that point we still thought he was a doctor.  In fact, do we know yet that he’s not?  But we do know that his patients seem to experience enough pain that a nurse is questioning.  So maybe he takes the drugs.

Then there is the client of Debra’s parroting the same resume that John gave her.  This is what started Debra’s sneaking around the cameras.

The conversation around Toby, Debra’s dislike of the ex brother in law, we are thinking there is something there but we don’t know what it is.

[teddysmom]

3 hours ago, preeya said:

Keep in mind, we are not watching a made for TV drama. Debra was a real, living person and I'm sure CB is portraying her in the best possible way she can.

I can attest to this. I saw the Dateline about Debra & John, and Connie is nailing it.  It's hard to watch a woman that age be so delusional. 

Am I the only one that keeps hearing Wisconsin/Minnesota accents from Connie & Jean?  Is that where they're from (Debra & the Grandmother).  The way they keep saying "Oh Hon," etc I swear I'm watching Fargo on Lifetime. 

[mythoughtis]

40 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

In fact, do we know yet that he’s not?  But we do know that his patients seem to experience enough pain that a nurse is questioning.  So maybe he takes the drugs.

We know Terra found his nursing license in his box in Debra’s  house. We know Debra found his surrender of his nursing license in his drawer along with his criminal history and restraining and protection orders.  

We know he wasn’t in Iraq with Doctors without Borders when he said he was.   

[Empress1]

5 hours ago, preeya said:

I totally agree. So why the criticism of Connie Britton's portrayal of Debra. She has likely been told to portray her in that manner by TPTB.

The real Debra said she met Connie before filming began as part of Connie's research and preparation for the role  (Connie interviewed her) and she said Connie is getting her right. I think Debra's just "dippy," as my mother would say, in all areas aside from her business. I have a friend who has a very good life: two degrees, owns a home, has a career (she'll never be rich because it's not that kind of career, but she has enough), her parents have been married 45 years, has friends, some of whom she's known since childhood. She cannot pick a decent man to save her life, starting when she was in high school. Every man she even goes on one date with is either emotionally abusive, willfully unemployed, or both. She'll meet someone and describe him, and people, myself included, look at her like "...?" because there's no way to make them sound like decent dudes, because they just aren't. Thank God she never married or procreated with any of them.

3 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

Some lies are discovered and people are so good and coming up with a story that they are believed.  I had a friend who met someone online who lied to her and said he was divorced....I did some research for her and found he was married.  She asked him about it and he told her he that he is getting divorced....she again believed him.  Later found out he had no intention of getting divorced....she still made excuses for him.

I can't tell you how many women I know who have been given the "we're married in name only, it's over!" okeydoke. Someone tried that shit on me when I was on Match. (I told him to go on Ashley Madison and stop wasting peoples' time and blocked him.)

[2727]

3 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

We know Debra found his surrender of his nursing license in his drawer ...

Ah, thanks. I missed that in the shots of the paperwork. I wonder if John knows the car has a tracker on it then, because Ronnie said it shows him driving to the hospital every day.

I wonder if he kept up the fakery after they got married and still pretended to have emergencies come up or be gone long hours. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by 2727

[EdnasEdibles]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

The real Debra said she met Connie before filming began as part of Connie's research and preparation for the role  (Connie interviewed her) and she said Connie is getting her right. I think Debra's just "dippy," as my mother would say, in all areas aside from her business. I have a friend who has a very good life: two degrees, owns a home, has a career (she'll never be rich because it's not that kind of career, but she has enough), her parents have been married 45 years, has friends, some of whom she's known since childhood. She cannot pick a decent man to save her life, starting when she was in high school. Every man she even goes on one date with is either emotionally abusive, willfully unemployed, or both. She'll meet someone and describe him, and people, myself included, look at her like "...?" because there's no way to make them sound like decent dudes, because they just aren't. Thank God she never married or procreated with any of them.

I can't tell you how many women I know who have been given the "we're married in name only, it's over!" okeydoke. Someone tried that shit on me when I was on Match. (I told him to go on Ashley Madison and stop wasting peoples' time and blocked him.)

There's a line in Bojack Horseman that goes: "You know, it's funny; when you look at someone through rose-colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags." And I think there are so many people who fall for this not only in love but friendship and jobs and neighbors and daycare centers and church leaders and all sorts of other things. When you want to find problems with something, you can find them. But when you really want to believe that this person is good, you'll find the clues for good. I find this 50% inspiring and 50% depressing.

[buttercupia]

14 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

There's a line in Bojack Horseman that goes: "You know, it's funny; when you look at someone through rose-colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags." 

That is a great line. Classic. Should be in fortune cookies.

[Starlight925]

In my own personal "Dirty John" situation, I thankfully ended before he got to my finances.  His next girlfriend spent thousands and thousands on him; I'd guess $30,000-$50,000 in a year.  I saw through his b.s. but not before I came this close to buying us a house and allowing myself to become "Debra'd".

Red flags were all over the place, but even now, I have one friend who stills sees my ex as this "really nice guy" and she always defends him.  She has a great husband of her own, so it's not about her wanting him.  She just always comes to my ex's defense when his name comes up.  I'll tell her how he lied about being on dating sites while we dated, or how he lied about his finances (in a huge way), and she'll be like, "oh, he's just so misunderstood".

There are just some people for whom the flags are never any color other than.....flags.

[Ohwell]

9 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I think she fell for John because he was a well spoken, (with no vocal fry or upspeak) intelligent, white male who probably studied her enough to know that what she wanted was for a man to do for her.  When Debra was talking with her mother, at the end of the episode, she mentioned how all other men she dated would say to her, "if you'd told me I would have done it."  Debra didn't want to have to tell anybody what to do for her, she wanted them to know, which doesn't make sense as nobody is a mind reader.  What John would do for Debra in the morning, having her juice ready for her, making sure the shower was the right temperature, even putting the toothpaste on her toothbrush, were things that a queen would have done for her, and if Debra thought of herself as a queen, it makes sense.

I agree with all this.  If John offered to wipe her ass after she used the toilet, she'd be over the moon.  I am not kidding.  That would be just another example of his "love" for her.

[Empress1]

3 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

There's a line in Bojack Horseman that goes: "You know, it's funny; when you look at someone through rose-colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."

I remember this! Lisa Kudrow playing an owl who'd been in a coma for ages.

[MaryPatShelby]

On 12/3/2018 at 12:30 PM, Irritable said:

It amuses me that Vicki Gunvalson isn’t even embarrassed to admit that her desperate need for male attention and validation is why she was so vulnerable to Dirty Brooks. I would be mortified to tell the world that I was that needy.

Debra admits the same desperation for love, but unlike Vicky, she doesn’t seem to be a toxic narcissist. She’s kind, generous, loving and trusting of everyone, not just romantic partners. Vicki is selfish, arrogant, greedy and delusional but incredibly insecure. Also, I think Vicki is probably jealous that Debra managed to get so many men to marry her - Vicki has only been divorced twice and now she can’t pay a man to put a ring on it! Doesn’t matter if you marry 4 scumbags, the most important things is that getting married proves that Vicki is the good catch she keeps screeching herself to be.

Who is this Vicky that a lot of you are talking about?  What is her relationship to Debra?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Who is this Vicky that a lot of you are talking about?  What is her relationship to Debra?

Vicki Gunvalson - she’s been gracing us with her presence since the first season of RHOC in 2006 aka she won’t go away. 

[princelina]

On 12/3/2018 at 8:18 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

For the record, I don't think it's a huge red flag if a person doesn't own a car, especially in this day and age when you can take Lyft anywhere. That's doubly true if you live in a large city with public transportation. I know several adults who don't own cars for various reasons. and there's nothing sketchy about them. My issue becomes when you're an adult who doesn't own a car but you want to borrow someone else's car on a regular basis.

I agree with this depending upon where you live - my city was never a "cab city" (although Uber/Lyft has made it better) so it would be more suspicious here than say NYC.  What I would find most suspicious (and am doing so now with a certain friend's man) is a man over the age of 25 or certainly 30 who is able to just move in over a weekend - no pesky house to sell, lease to get out of, or furniture to deal with.  Where are you coming from and why don't you have stuff?  Even Doctors without Borders - unless you just got home last weekend, you should have an apartment lease or something.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 1:30 PM, Irritable said:

Debra admits the same desperation for love, but unlike Vicky, she doesn’t seem to be a toxic narcissist. She’s kind, generous, loving and trusting of everyone, not just romantic partners. 

IMO she's kind, generous, loving and trusting of romantic partners and the rest of her loved ones can go fly a kite unless they're willing to go along with it.  I can't hate on her snotty daughters when it seems clear that they have always taken a back seat to whomever she is dating (marrying?) at any given time.

[laurakaye]

On 12/3/2018 at 9:38 AM, TomGirl said:

Me too. Between her whispers and the daughters’ terrible vocal fry, it’s distracting.  I know they are all trying to sound like the actual people they’re portraying, but it’s still grating.

I am listening to the podcast along with watching the show and the vocal fry is actually making this a fun listen/watch for me.  Maybe it's because I don't know anyone in real life who speaks that way, or because I am so enthralled with the story and the way they speak is such a part of who they are - but I'm on board.  Fry away, ladies!

 

On 12/3/2018 at 6:51 PM, sadie said:

And on a personal shallow note, how did the costumers manage to make the gorgeous Connie Britton look so awful in those horrible polyester pants? 

Thank you.  Did wardrobe pad her or something to get those pants to look like that?  I'm not sure, but it's a small detail that I love, since the real Debra was nearly 60.  It rings true to a real woman's figure.

Edited December 5, 2018 by laurakaye

[Emmeline]

Considering the daughter already looked into John’s papers in episode 1, why in the world would he continue to leave all his info in the drawer in the house?  I know this is only based on a true story, but still.  And Yes, Debra makes me embarrassed to be a women.

[Starlight925]

1 hour ago, Emmeline said:

Considering the daughter already looked into John’s papers in episode 1, why in the world would he continue to leave all his info in the drawer in the house?  I know this is only based on a true story, but still.  

I answered this in the "Real People" thread, since it's a spoiler.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Sterling

[teddysmom]

3 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Did wardrobe pad her or something to get those pants to look like that?  I'm not sure, but it's a small detail that I love, since the real Debra was nearly 60.  It rings true to a real woman's figure.

I think they've done something to make her face look older too. She was on Colbert a couple weeks ago and she doesn't look that old IRL.  I just think Debra was a little bigger than Connie, and she maybe chooses clothing that doesn't fit her as well as it should.  She wears a lot of light colored dressy pants, they are not known for being flattering. 

[yourmomiseasy]

On 12/3/2018 at 5:18 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

John was already creeping me out within the first 30 seconds. It's one thing to make a new smoothie every morning (although the suspicious part of me was wondering if he was drugging her with something in those smoothies because I've been waiting for him to do something terrible), but putting toothpaste on her toothbrush and getting into the shower fully clothed to adjust the water temperature? I'm sure she interpreted it as John spoiling her and taking care of her but that's just super creepy and infantalizing to me. He was like a step away from tying her shoes for her (not that Debra seems like the kind of woman who wears sneakers, but still).

 

The toothpaste was the creepiest thing to me.  I don't know why, because he's done a lot worse.

On 12/3/2018 at 5:49 AM, QuinnM said:

Very shallow on my part but the Chanel bag?  Anyone in the know that can enlighten me on the details?

So the brother in law that he mother went over to hug after church, put a gun to her daughters head and killed her?  I have to say that a red flag for me.  Forgiveness yes, embracing the animal, yeah no.  it makes you wonder watching her support Debra and this lunatic if she didn’t play a part in her other daughters staying with a man that eventually killed her.

Debra's mom is really the villain of this whole thing.  She's the worst.

On 12/3/2018 at 6:25 AM, Pickles said:

Why in the world would you keep $80k in cash? Even in the event of an earthquake or whatever, I wouldn't feel comfortable with more than $1000 in cash in the house. 

And then I lost focus for a minute. She put John's money in the bag. Is the bag back in the drawer? He suggested putting in a safe deposit box. Did she nix that idea? Of course, the money will be long gone, no matter where it is stashed. 

I remember one time in junior high I was cooking at my dad's and found $60k in the freezer and was like WTF.  Now he has a hidden safe somewhere.  The amount in it varies depending on what's going on, like they'll grab money out if going on vacation and they don't have time to go to the bank for spending money or something like that.  He really believes that he'll need it in the event of an emergency.  My dickhead ex-client had gold bars hidden all over his house just in case.  I don't think it's something most people do, but I don't think it is super uncommon for a certain subset of people (those that are at least a little bit crazy and have some money).  

On 12/3/2018 at 5:53 PM, preeya said:

In this era, no one needs cash unless you're buying or selling drugs. Plastic is the new $$$.

The theory is that in a big enough disaster plastic will not work because phone, cellular, and internet will be down.  I believe this happened in the last few years with one of the big hurricanes on the East Coast (maybe it was Sandy?)

On 12/3/2018 at 8:14 PM, BusyOctober said:

I’m confused... I get that Toby is Debra’s nephew.  What was the deal with his father??? He shot Toby’s mom?  And that guy at the church was Debra’s ex-BIL??? And Debra’s mom went over to hug him? The same one who shot his wife??  As stupid as Debra seems to be, I guess it would make sense that her own mother is as stupid to keep a relationship with the guy who shot his wife (her own daughter?). Someone  please help me get this side story straightened out!  

 

Spoiler

Debra's sister got engaged when she was 17 or 18 and married the guy.  I think it was semi-sudden.  The guy was at least emotionally abusive.  I can't remember if he was physically.  Eventually the sister met another man and left him.  They got divorced/were getting divorced and sold the marital home.  As she was sitting at the table taking care of the details to that (signing papers or checks or whatever) he walked up behind her, put a gun to the back of her neck, and shot her.  He then shot himself.  She died.  He lived.  The mom made a big fucking deal about forgiving him and how she still loved him and the man she loved wouldn't have done that so he must have been out of his mind and all kinds of other stupid bullshit.  The mom testified at his trial -- not only about him being a good man, but about her daughter not always being good to him.  He got a very light sentence.  The mom is very proud of the fact that she feels that her testimony is why he got such a light sentence.  The DA said he'd never seen a victim's family sell them out like that.  I feel like there's more backstory around this family and normalizing abuse being disguised as being Christian and forgiving.

[CruiseDiva]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I think they've done something to make her face look older too. She was on Colbert a couple weeks ago and she doesn't look that old IRL.  I just think Debra was a little bigger than Connie, and she maybe chooses clothing that doesn't fit her as well as it should.  She wears a lot of light colored dressy pants, they are not known for being flattering. 

From the photos I've seen of Debra and her daughter Terra, they are a good bit heavier than the actresses portraying them.

I believe Debra was 59 at the time the story begins, so her mother was probably in her late-70s. If that's accurate, then I totally understand the costuming of the mother. I have a well-to-do friend whose mother is in that age demographic and she styles her hair and dresses a lot like they have Jean Smart styled and dressed.

Also from photos, the real Dirty John was a lot more attractive than the actor playing the part. I'm not familiar with that actor, but I have a hard time believing women would swoon over him. He's just too skinny and not that appealing, IMHO.

[CruiseDiva]

On 12/3/2018 at 8:18 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Terra was being a bit petulant at therapy, but with good reason. Debra bringing her boyfriend to family events like Christmas when they've only been together for TWO MONTHS is ridiculous and inappropriate.

Regarding Terra's Christmas sobbing fit... I think she was transferring her own emotions about her mother's men always disappearing onto the family's young children. I doubt that the nieces, nephews, and grandchildren got so attached to Debra's boyfriends/ex-husbands that they'd be devastated when the men were no longer around. On the other hand, perhaps Terra was upset as a younger child when they disappeared from the family circle.

[lezlers]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 1:11 AM, PrincessPurrsALot said:

The creepiness factor went through the roof on this episode.  She found his arrest record and restraining orders.  I agree she comes across as so addicted to the dick she'll believe anything he says.    But her ninja maneuvers accessing his drawer were great.  With all of his suave behavior and excessive juice drink making, he left all of these documents where she could easily find them.

Right?  We already know dude knows how to get a safe deposit box.  Why would you keep all of that incriminating shit right there in her home office???

[BusyOctober]

Thanks for the info yourmomiseasy. Wow.  Just wow.  Debra’s mom is apparently Patient Zero in the No Street Smarts ward.

[AmandaPanda]

This story is such a great illustration of how domestic violence begins before the first punch is ever thrown. It really is like a frog in boiling water who doesn't realize they're even in a pot. Everything John is doing to seem romantic and doting (making her smoothies every morning, warming up the shower for her, putting toothpaste on her toothbrush, etc.) is just making her dependent on him. He's slowly isolating her from everyone. He got Veronica away from her as soon as he realized she was going to be an obstacle. He put a wedge in her relationship with Terra. Now, he's taking away Toby. The only family member she really has left is her mother, who will be on your team even if you kill her child. She hasn't been shown to really have any friends who are regularly around. He's gotten control of her finances (by having it as a "joint" account). He's even started trying to isolate her spiritually by trying to get out of going to church and taking that away from her. He has made himself her entire world.

There's another podcast that discussed this story when the Dirty John podcast was originally airing. It's called Real Crime Profile. They had an episode of RCP for each episode of DJ and really delved into the aspects of coercive control displayed in the story. I highly recommend it for anyone who wants to learn more about it and what to do if you suspect you are either in a relationship like this one or know someone who might be.

[HunterHunted]

On 12/3/2018 at 7:18 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

TWO MONTHS is ridiculous and inappropriate.

Boy is it ever. I kept thinking Debra has employees that she has known and spent more time with over a period of years. None of them have managed to secure an invitation to her family's Christmas celebrations, but buster has. Why? Yes he's an attractive guy telling her everything she wants to hear, but how did she manage to get to this age while being this dumb?

Quote

The guy playing Debra's nephew Toby was Damian Dalgaard on Gossip Girl!

Kevin "Air Bud" Zegers

Quote

Debra's mom made me roll my eyes. Just because someone is courteous doesn't mean that they're truthful.

And this is how Debra managed to get to that age while still being this dumb.

Edited December 6, 2018 by HunterHunted

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 12/3/2018 at 6:25 AM, Pickles said:

Why in the world would you keep $80k in cash? Even in the event of an earthquake or whatever, I wouldn't feel comfortable with more than $1000 in cash in the house.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 5:53 PM, preeya said:

In this era, no one needs cash unless you're buying or selling drugs. Plastic is the new $$$.

 

12 hours ago, yourmomiseasy said:

The theory is that in a big enough disaster plastic will not work because phone, cellular, and internet will be down.  I believe this happened in the last few years with one of the big hurricanes on the East Coast (maybe it was Sandy?

I remember back before Y2K, people were worried about the same thing (a disaster where the phones, electricity, and the budding internet could all be down) so people were getting cash beforehand just in case. We are very lucky to have electricity, phone lines, and internet that are reliable but I think it has made us forget what life was like only 20 years ago.

If there really is a huge disaster, there's no telling how long it will be before those resources are restored. Just look at how long Puerto Rico was without power - some residents were still without electricity TEN MONTHS after Hurricane Maria hit in 2017 (and it wasn't just a few random people out in the boonies - by June 2018, there were still 11,000 customers were still without electricity). How would you access your bank account if the ATMs had no power? How would you swipe your credit card to buy things if the stores had no electricity (and that's assuming they had any food left to sell)? You can't venmo/paypal money to someone on your phone if the cellular network is down. I'm not saying you need $80K in cash stashed in your dresser, but I understand why people want to have some cash on hand in case of an emergency. I'm still shaking my head at how Debra casually described that as "I keep some cash in the house" and later said that she takes $1000 out of each paycheck for her emergency cash fund.

12 hours ago, yourmomiseasy said:

The toothpaste was the creepiest thing to me.  I don't know why, because he's done a lot worse.

I don't think it's something most people do, but I don't think it is super uncommon for a certain subset of people (those that are at least a little bit crazy and have some money). 

Yes to both of these things! I think there's definitely a line between "I want to take care of you and spoil you" (offering a foot massage without being asked is something that I think would fall under this category) versus doing things for your significant other that you would do for a toddler (the toothpaste thing really creeped me out because it's firmly in this category).

Ha, I laughed at the mental image of that Venn diagram because, fittingly, it covers a lot of Debra's real life contemporaries like the RHOC women.

[TattleTeeny]

Agree about the toothpaste, haha! Like, I am not particularly doted upon by my boyfriend, but he definitely does a few things for me that that I could easily do myself--he always restocks my seltzer cans in the refrigerator even though he never drinks it, he makes me drinks (I am a terrible bartender!), and he makes sure I have snacks and booze readily available on nights that he's out doing a gig (hence how I learned that I'm a bad bartender); they have become become a "thing" for us. But if he went too far above and beyond (unless I was incapacitated in some way), I'd be weirded out and most likely annoyed as well!

[Barb23]

I am really into this show. Luckily I recorded the episodes & have watched them many times. I think I find something new each time. How many episodes are there? 

The condo/apartment is nice but for the price Debra paid  ( IIRC it was $7,000 a month), I can't believe the location & lack of privacy.  They are on the ground floor & only a foot or two above the public boardwalk/walkway which runs parallel & past the length of their unit. They seem to leave the sliding doors open a lot (I would too) but it's like an open invitation for anyone to just come on in. That's probably how the house intruder got in.  Debra's dresser or trunk that she kept the hidden bag of money in was only a couple feet away from the outside open door.  They could be on the other side of the condo & not even realize some stranger is walking right in & making away with the money or other things. There was no privacy at the outside table for (Thanksgiving) dinner. People were just walking right on by.  Even when Veronica arrives for dinner, she walked down the boardwalk & right onto Debra's terrace. I'm not even sure if there was a gate.  If it was me,  I would want my expensive condo/apartment to be on a higher floor away from foot traffic & onlookers.

They even parked the Maserati right on the street, not even under cover.  Maybe that's their designated parking spot since it was next to the door.  Except there were some red lines on the street & the car was moved when they showed the cops taking away the intruder. I can see John as the type to park the car where he wants to whether it's a legal spot or not. 

On 12/5/2018 at 6:10 PM, CruiseDiva said:

Regarding Terra's Christmas sobbing fit... I think she was transferring her own emotions about her mother's men always disappearing onto the family's young children. I doubt that the nieces, nephews, and grandchildren got so attached to Debra's boyfriends/ex-husbands that they'd be devastated when the men were no longer around. On the other hand, perhaps Terra was upset as a younger child when they disappeared from the family circle.

You are spot on regarding Terra's feelings. I agree she was relating how she used to feel as a child when her mother's boyfriends or husbands would leave as opposed to  how the newer generation of kids feel  if or when their grandmother's newest sidekick leaves. 

I love when the girls were talking about their Grandma's homemade strawberry Santas & of course they made an appearance. I'm sure we all can relate.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, Barb23 said:

The condo/apartment is nice but for the price Debra paid  ( IIRC it was $7,000 a month), I can't believe the location & lack of privacy.  

Debra only got away with paying $7K/month because she offered one year upfront in cash. The realtor made sure to tell her that $7K was low but Debra countered by telling her that the owners would be happy to have all that cash right away. Living in a beach town means that some of the places with the best views have little privacy. There are lots of places in Los Angeles and San Diego that are right on the beach or the boardwalk so people are always walking by year round.

[Kdawg82]

I can not figure out Debra. I don't know if she has a low self esteem or high one. I think on one hand she knows she has three children and four ex husbands and is up in years- so she balances the scale and makes excuses for her partner to that end. If John exhibits some odd "quirks" or doesnt shell out $$ to wine and dine her, she accepts it. The ornament he got her is a prime example for me of a red flag. Beware the el-cheapo gift in a "serious" relationship that are meant to be sentimental. I'm not materialistic but have seen this play out from many a slime ball. Same as foot rubs, smoothies (fruits paid for by Deb I'm sure), toothpaste & shower prep...the FREE gestures of "true love."

Bringing me to my next point...is Debra SO full of herself that she believes she DESERVES this from a man. Him "just knowing & doing it?" I don't know any woman who goes for a guy because he "just knows." You can't just know a person. You learn them and then adjust accordingly. Her expectation seems very high. But overall I *like* her in terms of she has a good heart overall. 

[Neurochick]

6 hours ago, Kdawg82 said:

Bringing me to my next point...is Debra SO full of herself that she believes she DESERVES this from a man. Him "just knowing & doing it?" I don't know any woman who goes for a guy because he "just knows." You can't just know a person. You learn them and then adjust accordingly. Her expectation seems very high. But overall I *like* her in terms of she has a good heart overall. 

Yes to this.  Also I remember how Debra's mother kept saying how handsome John looked when he came over for Christmas.  It's like both she and her mom admire the superficial:  handsome, well spoken, chivalrous.  To me, John's performing, like an actor and they're falling for it, thinking it's the real him.

[ninjago]

7 hours ago, Kdawg82 said:

 

I can not figure out Debra. I don't know if she has a low self esteem or high one. I think on one hand she knows she has three children and four ex husbands and is up in years- so she balances the scale and makes excuses for her partner to that end. If John exhibits some odd "quirks" or doesnt shell out $$ to wine and dine her, she accepts it. The ornament he got her is a prime example for me of a red flag. Beware the el-cheapo gift in a "serious" relationship that are meant to be sentimental. I'm not materialistic but have seen this play out from many a slime ball. Same as foot rubs, smoothies (fruits paid for by Deb I'm sure), toothpaste & shower prep...the FREE gestures of "true love."

Bringing me to my next point...is Debra SO full of herself that she believes she DESERVES this from a man. Him "just knowing & doing it?" I don't know any woman who goes for a guy because he "just knows." You can't just know a person. You learn them and then adjust accordingly. Her expectation seems very high. But overall I *like* her in terms of she has a good heart overall. 

 

I could talk about this post all day, there are so many interesting points in it!

Starting with the "el cheapo" gifts: this reminds me of my own (not dangerous) Dirty John, who insisted on celebrating our monthly anniversary by giving me a rose for each month we'd been together and when it was his turn to plan (aka pay) for a date night, he'd cook me dinner at my house and I was supposed to think it was romantic, but when it was my turn, he'd "suggest" we go to the latest trendy restaurant so I could drop $300 on dinner.  

I consider her standards very low, but maybe this is one of those "love language" things?  A 50 year old man with a ton of debt, tax issues, no relationship with his kids and no plan for how he is going to rectify those things?  No way.  Throw on top of that his "champagne tastes"?  Hell fucking no.  When Debra comes home from working and John is laying on the couch watching TV and drinking beer (and evidently nodding off from fentynl)....that would turn me off so much, independent of all of the other horrible things he's done.

To me, the stuff he "just does" for her are so meaningless.  Does she even want a smoothie every morning?  Was it really so much of an effort for her to put toothpaste on her own toothbrush?  Does he ever do anything for her that is actually helpful, like do the laundry, vacuum, clean the house, make dinner, etc.?  It seems like she's letting him tell her what she wants him to do, and then she settles for that.

[Starlight925]

8 hours ago, Kdawg82 said:

IThe ornament he got her is a prime example for me of a red flag. Beware the el-cheapo gift in a "serious" relationship that are meant to be sentimental. I'm not materialistic but have seen this play out from many a slime ball. Same as foot rubs, smoothies (fruits paid for by Deb I'm sure), toothpaste & shower prep...the FREE gestures of "true love."

 

48 minutes ago, ninjago said:

IStarting with the "el cheapo" gifts: this reminds me of my own (not dangerous) Dirty John, who insisted on celebrating our monthly anniversary by giving me a rose for each month we'd been together and when it was his turn to plan (aka pay) for a date night, he'd cook me dinner at my house and I was supposed to think it was romantic, but when it was my turn, he'd "suggest" we go to the latest trendy restaurant so I could drop $300 on dinner.  

To me, the stuff he "just does" for her are so meaningless.  Does she even want a smoothie every morning?  Was it really so much of an effort for her to put toothpaste on her own toothbrush?  Does he ever do anything for her that is actually helpful, like do the laundry, vacuum, clean the house, make dinner, etc.?  It seems like she's letting him tell her what she wants him to do, and then she settles for that.

Both of these posts are so spot on, it's scary!

With my own Dirty John, also 50's, in debt, but so charismatic he was magnetic, he too gave me all the "el cheapo" gifts and little gestures that don't cost a thing.

I am not materialistic, and I would never want diamonds or anything like that.  But with my DJ, the gifts were so cheapy-cheap, it was almost like, is this a joke?  

Re:  The morning smoothies and whether Debra even wanted them....good question!  It's not like she ever asked for them, that we saw.

In my own DJ situation, every single morning he'd run out to Starbuck's while I was showering, and bring me back a latte.  I finally told him thanks, but no thanks, as I don't really like Starbuck's.  He insisted, and continued to bring me the lattes.  I'd bring it with me in my car and dump it out later, because he just wouldn't take no for an answer.  I later realized, it was his way of saying, "See?  See all I do for you???".

[ElectricBoogaloo]

12 minutes ago, Sterling said:

In my own DJ situation, every single morning he'd run out to Starbuck's while I was showering, and bring me back a latte.  I finally told him thanks, but no thanks, as I don't really like Starbuck's.  He insisted, and continued to bring me the lattes.  I'd bring it with me in my car and dump it out later, because he just wouldn't take no for an answer.  I later realized, it was his way of saying, "See?  See all I do for you???".

Ugh, that's terrible. It's more important to listen to what someone is telling you ("I DON'T LIKE STARBUCKS") so that you can give them things that they actually want or like, but it sounds like it was more important to him that he get credit for doing it. Heh, or maybe he had an endless supply of Starbucks gift cards so these were costing him nothing!

[Starlight925]

2 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ugh, that's terrible. It's more important to listen to what someone is telling you ("I DON'T LIKE STARBUCKS") so that you can give them things that they actually want or like, but it sounds like it was more important to him that he get credit for doing it. Heh, or maybe he had an endless supply of Starbucks gift cards so these were costing him nothing!

That's how it appeared with Debra, laying in bed while a smoothie was placed on her nightstand.  

First of all, did she even want a smoothie?

Secondly, did she want it the second she woke up?

It's like he was trying soooooo hard to make her feel enveloped in love, a Hallmark movie come to life, before she even left the bedroom every morning.  Him getting in the shower, fully clothed, to get her water the exact right temperature, was so unbelievably creepy, as was him squeezing the toothpaste out for her.  Those things aren't just infantilizing, they are the things one would do for a handicapped partner.  With a  child, you teach them how to squeeze the toothpaste and how to test the water temperature.  If your partner is physically handicapped, then you do these things for them.  He was treating her as a physically handicapped person, which is likely how he saw her.

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, Sterling said:

It's like he was trying soooooo hard to make her feel enveloped in love, a Hallmark movie come to life, before she even left the bedroom every morning.  Him getting in the shower, fully clothed, to get her water the exact right temperature, was so unbelievably creepy, as was him squeezing the toothpaste out for her.  Those things aren't just infantilizing, they are the things one would do for a handicapped partner.  With a  child, you teach them how to squeeze the toothpaste and how to test the water temperature.  If your partner is physically handicapped, then you do these things for them.  He was treating her as a physically handicapped person, which is likely how he saw her.

Correct.  However I think Debra saw it as being treated like a queen.  Doesn't the queen have ladies in waiting to actually dress her?  I think that's how Debra saw it.