S05.E07: O Come, All Ye Thankful

[Trini]

Quote

THANKSGIVING - While Nora grapples with unresolved anger over her father's disappearance in the future, Barry and Team Flash must stop a powerful new meta, Weather Witch (guest star Reina Hardesty), from killing her own father, Weather Wizard (guest star Liam Mcintyre).

Sarah Boyd directed the episode written by Jonathan Butler & Gabriel Garza.

Airdate: 11/27/2018.

[legaleagle53]

Hmm - I see Barry, Iris, Sherloque, Cisco, Caitlin, and Nora.  Where's Ralph -- at the kiddie table?

[Maverick]

He's probably the tablecloth. 

[Kate45]

On 11/22/2018 at 12:12 PM, legaleagle53 said:

Hmm - I see Barry, Iris, Sherloque, Cisco, Caitlin, and Nora.  Where's Ralph -- at the kiddie table?

Also, where’s Joe, Cecile, Jenna, and even Joanie? I’m guessing all of that will be explored during the hour. 

[Maverick]

I'm assuming Joe, Cecile and the baby go to visit Cecile's daughter to cover for JLMs absence. How convenient she has a child they can remember when circumstances call for it. 

[scarynikki12]

Episode threads are for episode discussion.  They are not for comic discussion, spoilers, previews, or convincing posters that their opinions are wrong.  We have threads for comic and spoiler discussions.  If you wish to reference comics, previews, or spoilers, that's allowed but they must all be tagged as spoilers and they cannot move discussion from the episode itself.  Posts that fail to use the spoiler tag will be hidden and repeat offenders will be warned.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Good God. Can Sherloque just go AWAY???? And remind me again, just how old is Nora again? 12? I’m ready for her to go back to her time. Beyond ready.

So if all metas are to die, does that include your now Meta ass, Cicada?😒

I don’t even know why I’m still watching this mess.

[mxc90]

At Iron Heights, what was the purpose of Barry and Nora ignoring Joss to take Mardon out of his cell and bring him to Star Lab's holding cell (his cell wasn't damaged and he wasn't going to escape)? They could have easily taken Joss there and their job would have been done for the day.

So the news thanked the Flash for saving Central City from the crashing satellite. Did they not want to report the other side of the event: people were injured from debris?

[bettername2come]

I knew they were going to have Killer Frost veto not going to Thanksgiving since she'd already RSVP'd. I did like Cisco just dragging Sherloque away when he started cheering for the colonizers. Glad they didn't kill Mark Mardon. This was the most reasonable he's ever been. I sense a future teamup. I expected more buildup to the 100th episode next week. Also, it seems odd they never mention how Barry shouldn't die any time soon because it will erase his daughter from existence. I feel like that would be a matter of concern for a time traveler. I mean he did already erase one superhero's daughter from existence. I'm not bitter.  

[ottoDbusdriver]

I don't understand why Barry didn't just take the staff from Joss ?  He can move superfast, she can't because she has no meta powers.  It would have been nice if they showed how the Weather Witch's staff was impacted by the dark matter from the satellite, let alone why would a weather vane give her power to control storms and lightning.  Did her weather vane staff have the ability to control storms BEFORE the dark matter ?

Getting really tired of Nora's angst about losing her daddy.   If Barry did die before Nora is conceived what happens ?  Will Nora no longer continue to exist (a la Back to the Future) ?  And then who will Nora complain to ?

Why didn't Nora move time backwards so Barry wasn't hit by lightning at the power plant ?  Oh that's right, the cold fusion core would have exploded killing them both.

Does that dark matter shard have a mind of its own ?

ETA: I missed the first couple of minutes, did they say where Ralph was ?  He was missing all episode.

Edited November 28, 2018 by ottoDbusdriver

[miasth]

So Cicada and Gracie was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.  I do not like that Dr and feel like she is enabling Cicada and adding fuel to his anger with her comments/attitude.  Irony is Cicada is a meta yet has deemed himself judge jury &  executioner for other metas.

Nora expresses her wish to save Barry and he was not even fazed by it.  So I guess he no longer concerned about her changing the timeline.  I suppose that has been implied since it has been said she has changed things, yet no one has suggested she leave.

I know this episode was all about Nora facing her anger about Barry disappearing, but this also solidified my opinion that Future Iris reached her breaking point.  Barry had so many close calls and there were times when they thought he was never coming back but he always did; until that event in the future.  

Sherloque: still don't care.  I actually missed Ralph.  Killer Frost comes out to set Sherloque and Cisco straight.   She did the same with Ralph in a prior episode. I am guessing this is her role in Team Flash now.  I really wish the writers had handled her character differently.

[tennisgurl]

I actually think that the doctor is just as much of the villain as Cicada is, if not more. She seemed to put the "it was all the metas fault" idea into his head in the first place, and now she is aiding and abetting his murder spree. Cicada seems to have cracked a bit after his niece was put into a coma and he was injured, whats her excuse? Did putting people back together after meta fights drive her to hate them all? Their logic is fault from the start of course, as being all "metas destroyed this and they all need to die!" considering not only is Cicada a meta, but a team with several metas stopped more people from getting hurt. 

I can get why Nora is freaking out more now about her father dying, as now she actually knows him and has a real person to miss and not a perfect idealized hero so never got to know, but she comes off as so much younger than she actually is sometimes. Maybe because Iris tried to shelter her for most of her life? Maybe a fanwank on my part, but there are only so many reasons a woman in her mid twenties, who is a superhero/CSI, would act like an angsty 14 year old so often. I do like her scenes with Barry a lot though.

Did they explain why Ralph was gone? Does he have any family or other friends he was visiting? I will take Ralph over Sherloque any day of the week. He just exists to give Tom something to do, and they love having him play new characters. Its sure unfortunate that this is by far the most annoying Wells we have met, and they keep adding him to stuff! The one scene with him that I liked was when Caitlin and Cisco were giving him the family speech, and he just grimaced. That was funny. And he, Caitlin, and Cisco drinking and bitching about their lives was kind of amusing. Kind of. 

Nice to see Weather Wizard again, enjoyed his back and fourth with Barry in the cell. "So I left her with her mom so I could pursue my career." "Your career as a criminal" Followed by Mardon giving him a "well, obviously" look. I am confused about why exactly Barry didnt just grab the staff from Joss? He has super speed, right? 

So Killer Frost is just our "tell it like it is" person know? Whatever, that whole thing is a mess. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Cicada seems to have cracked a bit after his daughter was put into a coma and he was injured

She’s actually his niece.

[phoenics]

I actually understood Nora's wild anger and fear for the first time.  She's been projecting her fear of losing her dad onto her mom and blaming her for her dad being gone... but now she's getting an idea of what Iris has gone through all of this time and probably how that would impact Iris - losing Barry.  Because she's living it now.  That scene with Nora desperately trying to bring Barry back was really well done by JPK.  

And her heart to heart with her dad was really emotional too.  I felt like I understood her fear better and even how she's been acting.  A little.

In the end she's just angry that she lost her dad and she needs someone/thing she can project her anger onto (sorry Mom for the hanging proposition).

Folks need to listen to Iris more.

I still don't understand how Caitlin was helping Barry in the loft with the pies - she did nothing but stand there the whole time.  That was really blatant fan service.  And her expression when Nora was mad at Iris - are these the same writers who did the baseball game episode?  It's annoying.

Did they explain where Joe/Cecile were for Thanksgiving?  I'm sorry but no black family is gonna be in the same city having Thanksgiving and they aren't together.  Were they out of town?  Did the show even mention them?  It's nuts to me that this show had Cisco/Cait/Sherloque there but NO mention of Iris/Barry/Nora's actual family.  That's a glaring omission - even worse when you consider Caitlin all up in Iris' house but Caitlin and Iris barely speak to one another AND that Caitlin invited Sherloque to Iris/Barry's house without asking if that was okay with them first.  This show makes people look like they don't have any manners at all.  With Caitlin doing that with Julian and Jay/Zoom, you could almost excuse it because the West house was so big - but Iris/Barry's place had a table that only seats 6.  Poor Ralph got bumped, lol.

I actually missed Ralph - I'm as shocked as anyone about that.

Edited November 28, 2018 by phoenics

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Did they explain where Joe/Cecile were for Thanksgiving?  I'm sorry but no black family is gonna be in the same city having Thanksgiving and they aren't together.  Were they out of town?

Yes. Barry told Caitlin they went to Cecile’s family for Thanksgiving.

[phoenics]

19 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes. Barry told Caitlin they went to Cecile’s family for Thanksgiving.

Heh - I guess I tuned that part out trying to figure out how Caitlin was helping other than just standing there grimacing at poorly cut pie crust strips that she clearly had no hand in creating.

[tennisgurl]

Not as much Iris as I would have liked, especially in a Thanksgiving episode, but I did love her using her journalist mojo to get them inside Iron Heights. The woman was practically begging Iris to write nice things about them, after what was certainly a massive PR nightmare last year with the mass meta breakout/murder. Iris probably could have gotten them all a five course meal if she wanted one!

[ruby24]

Caitlin's facial expressions were horrendous in this episode. God, DP can't act for shit.

Both Chris Klein and Tom Cavanagh's voices this season are driving me nuts.

[Lantern7]

What Nora Says: "Dad, I don't see why you have to go out and risk your life. Maybe I need you as a father more than Central City needs the Flash."

What Nora Should Be Saying: What Nora Says: "Dad, I don't see why you have to go out and risk your life. Maybe I need you as a father more than Central City needs the Flash. Also, if you die, I basically blip out of existence. Mom got drunk at a party and kept looking forlornly out the window, wondering what would have happened if Eddie Thrawn just went for the vasectomy."

And damn, Cicada subplot felt paint-by-numbers . . . not nearly as bad as Agent Liberty's origin on Supergirl, but the beats feel the same. Orville (or whatever his name is) didn't want to be a parental figure, sucked at being a parental figured, made up his mind to be a better parental figure, did a great job being a parental figure . . . and then his niece gets knocked into a coma, and he gets some jagged metal in his chest for living. And the Flash hears the applause for thwarting DeVoe's plan, unaware of the collateral damage. Oh, and the doctor is enabling him, which means she'll probably die before winter break.

Didn't see the Iris-controlled Mardon clone. Totally thought that was Ralph, even though he wasn't in the episode. Was he hanging with Joe and Cecile's family?

"Weather Witch." Cisco approves. Also, not liking Caitlin's split personality thing coming back. Just merge the damn personas!

[adora721]

Again with the meta dialogue from Sherloque about the "demon living inside" Caitlin's father trying to kill Team Flash; hasn't anyone told Sherloque that KF is a demon, too, who's already tried to kill Team Flash? Seriously? No one? 

And totally agree that the opening scene at the loft was SB tease/fanservice fodder that will used in multiple AU vids for showing the SnowAllen family holiday--- ugh!

JPK's desperation when trying to save Barry was palpable and heart wrenching; good acting!

ETA: 3 lines of direct dialogue between "besties" Iris and Caitlin.

Edited November 28, 2018 by adora721

[Jediknight]

Alright, they know who Cicada is, they know his backstory, and Caitlin's dad is out there.  Wrap up this Cicada story, have Caitlin's dad form the Rogues, and give us the Rogues as the main villains for the 2nd half of the season.  I just want the Rogues as the main villains.

There have been 2 villain origin episodes in the Beeboverse this season, and no offense to the Flash, but I think Supergirl did it better.  Ben's motivation is a crapton worse, but Witwer's a better actor than Klein.

[bobbyjoe]

Ugh, a lot of this episode just felt like filler.  There wasn't much in Cicada's belabored origin that we couldn't have already gathered from what we already know about him (other than it's his niece rather than his daughter, whoop-dee-doo). And Nora's parental angst of the week act is getting really, really old.  What's it gonna be next week: "boo hoo hoo, you never bought me a puppy"? 

Since the episode was obviously designed to air before Thanksgiving, and since they missed that deadline, I'm wondering if there would have been any effect whatsoever for the audience if they'd never shown this episode and just skipped to the next one.  So little of any real consequence happened tonight, would anyone have noticed?  Seriously, this episode had such a ton of padding, it was more than I could bear.  (excruciatingly bad pun alert: Padding. Ton. Bear.)

[Trini]

Quick thoughts:

Liked Chris Klein as Orlin; not feeling his acting choices as Cicada, though. So Grace is his niece instead of daughter; didn't see that twist coming. But now I'm wondering about the photo they showed in last week's episode, which was clearly set up to look like two parents and their daughter.

I know that the villains of the week are usually just plot devices, but seeing as how fathers and daughters was a theme this episode, I was disappointed at how shallow the plot with Weather Wizard and Weather Witch was. Kind of a waste of McIntyre as a guest star. I mean, I'm sure Mardon sucked as a father, but the daughter who barely knows him immediately jumps to murder with her newfound powers?? He was already in Prison. I would have liked to see what Mardon thought about his daughter trying to kill him.

Annoyed that they kept saying the Wand was Weather Wizard's - and it was not. I know these are new writers but, there are producers/writers there that have been there from the start. Get it together, writers room!

This was mostly a Barry/Nora episode, but I did like the continuation of Iris and Nora bonding; and their one-on-one scenes. And yay! for Nora actually apologizing to her mother!

Although it was resolved pretty quickly and predictably, I did like seeing another facet of the Barry/Nora relationship that didn't involve hero worship. Also liked that they brought up that Barry does put himself in danger and/or sacrifices himself a lot, and how that looks from a daughter's perspective.

So the new Killer Frost wig really is more blue-grey, and it wasn't just the lighting in the last episode.

No Ralph; and they didn't even mention him. Fourth episode without Joe/JLM.

[thuganomics85]

Nora: "Dad, please quit being The Flash, so I won't worry all the time about you dying and abandoning me!"

Barry: "But, honey, I can't!  The Flash is the show's title!  What would we do, then?!  We can even name it Barry because freaking Bill Hader stole that title already!"

 

Slightly more seriously, I do understand Nora's concerns and Jessica Parker Kennedy did a great job as always with it, but I continue to feel like the show is just rinsing and repeating Nora's issues with her parents, and I'm just ready for the show to move on.  This always seems to be an issue with this particular show, like last season consistently having Ralph screw up, act like he learns from it, only to screw up again.

Fun seeing Liam McIntyre as Mark/Weather Wizard again, but he really didn't have much to do here.  I wonder if he's being set up for more later on.  Weather Witch was decent, I guess.  I remember the actress from the Kennedy episode of Timeless, so it was nice seeing her here, and I hope she continues to get more work.

Sherloque continues to be annoying, but I did get a chuckle over his gripping causing Cisco to go all "anti-Thanksgiving" on the joint.  Should have known that it was just all going to end with Killer Frost "returning" and telling the guys to snap out of it.

So, I guess Joe and Cecile being away with the other family was just the show's way to continue to have Jesse L. Martin off screen, but I wonder what Ralph was up to?

Ah, so Cicada isn't actually the girl's father, but uncle who had to take care of her after her parents were killed, they grew close after a rocky start, only to have the Enlightenment fuck everything up.  It was at least a bit interesting seeing that it was the doctor that planted the anti-meta stance in him.  She might be more dangerous than she is letting on, at the moment.

[mxc90]

Would liked to have known the details of Orlin's sister's and bother in law's death. The cop said meta attack. Cicada doesn't mention the parents as his motivation. Maybe he didn't like them.

Moments after the Grace received/smelled the (who knows how many days) leftover food, she should have ran out of that rat bastard's apartment at flash like speed!

Social services didn't bother check on her welfare or take her away from him (couldn't provide food at the time or she was influenced by his bad behavior) or even accept his declaration to forgo his responsibility (next of kin) for her?

Iron Heights need to evaluate their security. The weather witch (stupid name) can break in with a little wind and team Flash can quickly take out prisoners with ease.

[cambridgeguy]

Oh no, Barry needs immediate medical attention!  If only we had some sort of device that would let us teleport him back to our HQ with its medical equipment. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Oh no, Barry needs immediate medical attention!  If only we had some sort of device that would let us teleport him back to our HQ with its medical equipment. 

I had the same question -- why didn't Nora just run Barry back to Starlabs ? 

In about a second, Barry changed into his Flash outfit, spirited Weather Wizard out of Iron Heights and put him into a cell in the Pipeline, and returned to Iron Heights before Weather Witch even knew what happened.  Why couldn't Nora do the exact same thing ?

Edited November 28, 2018 by ottoDbusdriver

[adora721]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Liked Chris Klein as Orlin; not feeling his acting choices as Cicada, though.

Did you notice the weird eye acting? Like he went full overacting with the raging, squinting eyes in his final scene in the episode. It was so first year acting student version of a villain acting.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I had the same question -- why didn't Nora just run Barry back to Starlabs ? 

In about a second, Barry changed into his Flash outfit, spirited Weather Wizard out of Iron Heights and put him into a cell in the Pipeline, and returned to Iron Heights before Weather Witch even knew what happened.  Why couldn't Nora do the exact same thing ?

Because she’s stupid?  Not ready to be a hero, just thinks her speed is enough to think she is? While still continuing to ignore both Iris and Barry’s advice?

Or because PLOT POINT! To have Nora cradle Barry in her arms and wail over him, to make us think he died early-typical of promo monkeys. When in fact he was okay by that point.

OR ALL.

That’s right-I’ve no sympathy for her selfishness. Barry is a Hero and has powers and with that, comes responsibility. If Nora acted like her AGE, and not like a tween who wouldn’t understand what that means...

Yeah, I’m a cold-hearted wench.

[Brinny]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

Did you notice the weird eye acting? Like he went full overacting with the raging, squinting eyes in his final scene in the episode. It was so first year acting student version of a villain acting.

I literally cannot seriously watch Chris Klein in anything since seeing this: 

(Major trigger warning if you get secondhand embarrassment. It’s quite cringey.)

Also, was there a reason this episode didn’t air prior to Thanksgiving?

[Kate45]

Overall, this was an okay episode. I’m hoping someone is going to call out Nora’s hypocrisy about being angry with her mom about the power dampener and then asking her dad to stop being the Flash. She’s clearly thought about him sacrificing his life with her to be the city’s hero. 

I’m aware that Nora/Iris involved taking the choice away, and that Nora/Barry involves him making a choice. It’s just interesting that she’s not making the connection. 

This episode also answered the question of whether she knew her dad was the Flash while growing up—it seems she did. I thought Iris was keeping that info from her, hence, the need for her to learn so much from the museum. So, Iris wouldn’t talk to her about Barry as a hero, but she knew her dad was a hero. 

[Lady Calypso]

So, I guess they left room for a time jump from last episode to this one, with it suddenly being Thanksgiving despite it should be July. They didn't refer to anything from last week's episode as having been last week. We got an explanation to where Joe and Cecile were. I guess Ralph doesn't get that same courtesy? Huh. It's odd that I care about Ralph now. Last season, he was part of the reason why I stopped watching. 

It actually was a decent episode. I liked all of the plots, even Cicada's origin story. So Orlin was a meaner version of Daddy Warbucks, except he takes in his own niece? We didn't get a lot of Grace to begin with, but they did establish that bond in the few scenes that they could dedicate to them. 

The Nora/Barry stuff was alright. I still don't feel like Nora's anger at Barry was really there, and I wish it was. After Iris getting snide comments by Nora, I would have been fine with a less pouty and more angry Nora at Barry. Otherwise, I do think the scene with Nora reviving Barry was well acted by JPK. I'm not fond of her asking her dad to stop being The Flash, as she has no idea how much worse the future could be, especially if she's never born, but I can see why she'd ask.

Yeah, that doctor is totally worse than Orlin, right? She's not just provoking him, but she's encouraging him to be that person and is aiding in his criminal activities. I mean, Orlin is obviously fairly bad, but we now see where his motivation lies. With the doctor, we know she hates metas but not why and we have seen her actively participate in helping Cicada. 

The Weather Wizard and Weather Witch stuff was pretty good as well. I did laugh at the failed attempt on Mark's life. 

[Trini]

On 11/28/2018 at 12:58 PM, Lady Calypso said:

So, I guess they left room for a time jump from last episode to this one, with it suddenly being Thanksgiving despite it should be July. They didn't refer to anything from last week's episode as having been last week. ...

Nora did mention she'd been getting to know Barry for "the past few months"; I'll take it!

[ETA: on re-watch she actually said "all these months"]

Edited December 4, 2018 by Trini

[cdnalor]

15 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Caitlin's facial expressions were horrendous in this episode. God, DP can't act for shit.

I suppose the actress can't help it, but the way she twists her mouth around when speaking is kind of annoying.

[Rose Red]

Fairly good episode but as usual team flash does some pretty dumb things. I really think they need to think things through a bit more before Barry runs into danger. I get that people need saving but Barry can't help anyone if he's dead.

I also believe Nora asking Barry to stop being the flash was hypocritical considering she was so mad at Iris for suppressing her powers

And the new flash suit bothers me alot! GG is really handsome but that suit makes him look horrendous...and I don't need to see so much of his bulge...and neither does his daughter and the entire city!

[Starry]

There was some questionable acting in this episode. I liked the Cicada and Gracie backstory but CK is not a strong actor. Last week I said that DP got better, I take it back, she's as awful as her s1 self and I didn't like the camera linging on her shady facial expressions while Nora was telling Iris that someone else should be calling the shots. If Caitlin has a problem with Iris and/or her leadership maybe she should say something. If there's no story there and it's just the actress making faces then they shouldn't waste reaction shots on her.

Barry went into cardiac arrest and the only ones giving decent performances were CP and JPK. It may have been bad direction but I felt nothing from either Caitlin or Cisco and I usually have no problem with CV's acting.

I did buy Nora's anger and fear and liked her scenes with Barry. I wish Iris were afforded more space to process her own feelings on the matter though. Nora's getting more POV than both Iris and Barry and they're the protagonist and female lead!

I found Weather Witch too dramatic and didn't understand her motivations. Still don't care for Sherloque and his atrocious accent but I chuckled at the pity party he, Cisco and Caitlin were having.

[Cthulhudrew]

Fast enough to get into Mardon's cell, zip him back to S.T.A.R. lab's pipeline, and get back to Iron Heights before Mardon's daughter can even utter a sentence. But not fast enough to grab a set of metacuffs and slap them on her before giving her the opportunity to make demands and fly away.

Yep. Pretty much par for the course for an episode of the Flash. 

[Cthulhudrew]

21 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Both Chris Klein and Tom Cavanagh's voices this season are driving me nuts.

That's why Cicada looks familiar! I thought I recognized him from somewhere, but genuinely did not place it until you pointed it out!

Agreed with just about everyone here on Sherloque. I love TC and enjoy having him on the show, but this particular Wells is just pointless. It's like the producers went to him and asked him what do we have to do to keep you on the show and he said, "I always wanted to play Sherlock Holmes." Done!

It's just a real shame, since the "great detective" role could easily be covered with any of several characters already on the show- Joe Wells, Ralph Dibny. Even Barry in his CSI role in combination with the other members of Team Flash. Just a real pointless character.

[Cthulhudrew]

16 hours ago, Trini said:

Annoyed that they kept saying the Wand was Weather Wizard's - and it was not. I know these are new writers but, there are producers/writers there that have been there from the start. Get it together, writers room!

This really bugged me too. At first I didn't even remember the wand from the show, and assumed the writers were mistaking the tv version of WW with his comic counterpart. I had to google it to recall where they'd used the wand on the Flash before.

3 hours ago, Rose Red said:

And the new flash suit bothers me alot! GG is really handsome but that suit makes him look horrendous...

I can't stand it either (it looks even worse on Stephen Amell). Seeing this suit and his suit from last season in the same episode (in the news clip) just made me really wonder why they changed it. Change it back!!!

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Fast enough to get into Mardon's cell, zip him back to S.T.A.R. lab's pipeline, and get back to Iron Heights before Mardon's daughter can even utter a sentence. But not fast enough to grab a set of metacuffs and slap them on her before giving her the opportunity to make demands and fly away.

Yep. Pretty much par for the course for an episode of the Flash. 

Why won't they let themselves be great?  I get that the show has to make the meta of the week a bit of a challenge but the way they make Team Flash really dumb in places just makes no sense.  And I hate when they conveniently slow Barry down just to give the other meta a fighting chance.  They've shown us flash time and they've shown us that Barry can stop bullets and shrapnel from a bomb.  Hell, they've shown Iris jumping off a building with enough presence of mind and hand/eye coordination to unlock a pair of meta-cuffs while hurtling toward the ground .  So a girl jumping through a ceiling or giving her time to stand there and monologue before she fires up her wand to make a tornado should not have been a challenge at all to a pair of speedsters.  They make Barry stand around surprised and dumbfounded too much. 

And that actress who played weather witch was horrible.  LOL.  Her line reading of "I am so pissed right now" was unintentionally hysterical.  It felt like she was overacting in an SNL skit.

I did like the opening scene.  JPK's acting was very well done, you really could feel her panic at Barry's death.  Same thing with CP.  I liked how she cried the one tear almost like she was too shocked to believe it, like she had to shut down and only allowed herself that one little tiny bit of grief.  And then she shook it off when they returned.  You get a glimpse of probably how future Iris will be when Barry is really gone.  The disassociation.  I also liked her telling Nora how much she worried about Barry.  Again we get a glimpse of Iris' inner emotional life that is just about her feelings that we rarely get to see.

That doctor is soo shady.  Why, though?  What's in it for her? Why is she compromising her ethics for him?

I know they said the theme for this season was "family' but I would call it "daddy issues". 

I refuse to even comment on the tomfoolery that is Killer Frost at this time.  I have spent too much time on that ridiculousness in last week's thread.

Sure Nora showed some growth, now I really need her to grow up.

[VCRTracking]

13 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Because she’s stupid?  Not ready to be a hero, just thinks her speed is enough to think she is? While still continuing to ignore both Iris and Barry’s advice?

Or because PLOT POINT! To have Nora cradle Barry in her arms and wail over him, to make us think he died early-typical of promo monkeys. When in fact he was okay by that point.

OR ALL.

That’s right-I’ve no sympathy for her selfishness. Barry is a Hero and has powers and with that, comes responsibility. If Nora acted like her AGE, and not like a tween who wouldn’t understand what that means...

Yeah, I’m a cold-hearted wench.

And I'm a big mushy goon because it all worked on me! Even though I knew Barry wasn't going to die, seeing Nora so panicked about her dad dying and her crying afterwards got me emotional. Jessica was really fantastic in that scene.

I know people are complaining about Nora not acting young for her age but for me it helps sell this odd new WestAllen family dynamic which I like. I can forgive her more than say, Dawn on Buffy because I know what's causing it whereas Dawn was just being a pain. Now it probably would be interesting if she dealt with her issues the way an adult would(drinking, getting into bad relationships, etc) but I'll settle with her learning life lessons from the other characters.

And even if Nora was played by an actress the right age for her emotions I doubt she'd be well liked. Being on boards for different shows here, I've found "brattiness" and immaturity are traits that don't put you on viewers' "favorite character" lists. If there's a kid on an adult show they be mature  and "wise beyond their years" or else stay in the background!

Edited November 29, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Spaceman Spiff]

On 11/27/2018 at 9:13 PM, phoenics said:

I still don't understand how Caitlin was helping Barry in the loft with the pies - she did nothing but stand there the whole time.  That was really blatant fan service.  And her expression when Nora was mad at Iris - are these the same writers who did the baseball game episode?  It's annoying.

She was helping with the pies. The scene opens on both their faces, slightly bent over *something* with Caitlin directing Barry how to make the cuts, more then likely a misdirection since you were supposed to assume they were doing some type of medical procedure or something similar. When the camera pans back to show the pies the one in front of Caitlin is done correctly, the one in front of Barry is not. So the scene starts after Caitlin had completed her pie. Barry continues to work the new dough because he has to correct the mistakes on the top of his pie. To me this was all self explanatory.

As to her expression, I don't know, but I myself do that all time if I am with a close group of family or friends and one suddenly "explodes" at another.

 

On 11/27/2018 at 10:30 PM, adora721 said:

ETA: 3 lines of direct dialogue between "besties" Iris and Caitlin.

How many direct lines of dialogue did besties Cisco and Barry have this episode?

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I know people are complaining about Nora not acting young for her age but for me it helps sell this odd new WestAllen family dynamic

No, it's the opposite. Nora isn't acting her age--which is mid-to-late 20s. She IS acting young, too young--like a petulant tween. If they wanted Nora to be a teenager, then they should made her a teenager. But that would have messed with their plot of Barry disappearing in 2024.

7 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

And even if Nora was played by an actress the right age for her emotions I doubt she'd be well liked. Being on boards for different shows here, I've found "brattiness" and immaturity are traits that don't put you on viewers' "favorite character" lists. If there's a kid on an adult show they be mature  and "wise beyond their years" or else stay in the background!

My problem isn't with Jessica Parker Kennedy's real age; it all has to do with how she's being directed and written to act like an immature, bratty, spoiled brat. Behavior that is consistent with being a kid or teenager, and not an adult. One who claims she's a hero or wants to be one. And thus far, aside from her speed, she hasn't exhibited any heroic qualities to my satisfaction.

[Chyromaniac]

For me, the worst part of the episode is the title.  If they really wanted to do a song pun in a Thanksgiving show with Mardon & his daughter, it should have been “We Gather to Weather.”

[DearEvette]

16 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

7 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I know people are complaining about Nora not acting young for her age but for me it helps sell this odd new WestAllen family dynamic

No, it's the opposite. Nora isn't acting her age--which is mid-to-late 20s. She IS acting young, too young--like a petulant tween. If they wanted Nora to be a teenager, then they should made her a teenager. But that would have messed with their plot of Barry disappearing in 2024.

 

This to me is the crux of the issue.  We could still be exasperated with Nora for her attitude toward Iris and be aware of her general brattiness.  But what you can accept in a teenager because that is how teenagers are, they are still immature, you can't accept in someone who is supposed to be in their late 20s.  The thing of it is, even though JPK is really in her early 30s IRL, she looks much younger.  I think she could have passed as, say, an 18 yo easily.   Even her attitude toward Iris would feel more realistic for a teenager who testing independence from an overly strict parent than a grown ass woman with a professional life.

I get what they are doing with the character.  And even on some level I think the character background for her is a logical one.  Who wouldn't hero worship a literal superhero dad who has a museum dedicated to all his derring-do?  And of course she should feel some distance toward a parent who has been distant herself. 

I actually like Nora.  I like the character even when she is annoying..  I love the actress.  I enjoy the dynamic she has set up and the dilemma she presents.  But the character beats were just all wrong for her age.  The writing for her lacks nuance.  It is a shame because I think if the writers were up to the task they really could have made the dynamic much richer.  We have seen some great moments between Nora/Barry and even now between Nora/Iris.  But they just can't do subtle.  And they don't know how to balance leaning into the comic book aesthetic of their world and the deeper character stories they want to tell.

[ElTVaddict]

On 11/27/2018 at 8:10 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

So if all metas are to die, does that include your now Meta ass, Cicada?😒

 

That was my question also.

[adora721]

6 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

How many direct lines of dialogue did besties Cisco and Barry have this episode?

You may not be aware, but I'm tracking how the writers are trying to minimize the amount of direct dialogue that CP and DP have to speak to each other this season, especially since Iris and Caitlin are supposed to more than "work friends" since 4x5. It's just jarring and obvious how little actual direct interaction and dialogue they have.

It's already been established that Barry and Cisco have a real friendship over 4+ seasons. I'm interested in these two women whose friendship is obviously weak.

Edited November 29, 2018 by adora721

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No, it's the opposite. Nora isn't acting her age--which is mid-to-late 20s. She IS acting young, too young--like a petulant tween. If they wanted Nora to be a teenager, then they should made her a teenager. But that would have messed with their plot of Barry disappearing in 2024.

Oh I meant people complaining about her acting young for her age. Sorry!

I know she's acting too young but I can just chalk that up to her being emotionally stunted.

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

My problem isn't with Jessica Parker Kennedy's real age; it all has to do with how she's being directed and written to act like an immature, bratty, spoiled brat. Behavior that is consistent with being a kid or teenager, and not an adult. One who claims she's a hero or wants to be one. And thus far, aside from her speed, she hasn't exhibited any heroic qualities to my satisfaction.

That's fair. We have half a season more to go so we'll see those heroic qualities.

[BkWurm1]

On 11/27/2018 at 8:56 PM, tennisgurl said:

I can get why Nora is freaking out more now about her father dying, as now she actually knows him and has a real person to miss and not a perfect idealized hero so never got to know, but she comes off as so much younger than she actually is sometimes. Maybe because Iris tried to shelter her for most of her life? Maybe a fanwank on my part, but there are only so many reasons a woman in her mid twenties, who is a superhero/CSI, would act like an angsty 14 year old so often. I do like her scenes with Barry a lot though

 When it comes to our parents, I think it's not uncommon to act more like the teen we were than the adult we are trying to become or are supposed to be.  All those old roles that were ingrained during most of our interaction is hard to shake especially if you haven't developed a relationship with your parents as equal adults. 

With Iris and Nora, it seems that their relationship was frozen from back when Nora was a teenager.  They've established that Iris wouldn't talk about the past and Nora felt she always fell short of what her mom wanted her to be.  It's clear they never had a mature relationship once Nora was older and Nora finding out just what her mom had actually kept from her probably did catapult her right back to the same feelings of anger and frustration at Iris shutting her out and at the same time being from Nora's perspective, impossible to please - even as she wanted to please her.    

In the show's timeline I think it was about six weeks before Nora got a reality check from Cecile and readjusted her way of thinking and then we've seen her have a much more mature relationship with Iris.  It's still has some shades of mother/daughter familiarity breeding contempt like I think is pretty realistic.  It's easier to get quickly mad at someone you really know well like Nora snapping about who was making decisions when it seemed to almost get Barry killed, but we also saw her pretty quickly set things right and apologize so on the Nora/Iris front, it seems to me that they've fixed most of the acting like a teen thing.

Now she's for the first time dealing with these real feelings of anger that she has toward a father that for all the noble reasons he was gone, did technically leave her because he chose to put himself in danger.  I remember someone that spoke about how her parents were aid workers I think in some remote part of China who left for a few years when she was a baby because the conditions were just so poor but then when she was like four, they left her with a grandparent and went back because they wanted to keep helping.  And then in a couple years (with visits in between) died on the job.  So she spent the rest of her life both grieving their deaths and coping with the anger and hurt in knowing her parents put others first at the expense of what should have been their first responsibility, their own child.  The anger isn't entirely misplaced even if one completely understands why they'd go.  I'm sure it's a situation that happens in many other ways to families all the time.  If there is a path that would have not put them in danger and they didn't chose it, it would hard not to ever be angry another path wasn't taken. 

Nora knew intellectually that Barry was a hero and vanished/died because of it and when he was some nebulous figure only focused on the hero part.  And was so proud of him for being that good person.  I think her finally realizing how much bigger her loss really was now that she knows him and can see how his presence would have changed her life and her mom's life makes her very short lived anger at him for not putting her life with him first feel very natural.  

Even before Barry helped her understand from his perspective that he wasn't choosing others over her and his family, but fighting to help keep his family safe, Nora had already come to grips with the responsibility that comes with power and her responsibility to share her father with the world.  I can't begrudge her or judge her for the day or so that she took to process her feelings after a lifetime of not even understanding where a lot of her anger came from.    

I agree that Nora has at times acted very much like a petulant teen but I also feel the show has reasonably explained why and shown that she's doesn't always behave like that.  And how quickly she reconciled her new feelings with the need for Barry to be a hero in my opinion shows that she IS much more mature than she gets credit for.  

 A lot of her other mannerisms that come off maybe as young I think really should be considered as just her being kind of shy and not used to bucking authority.  She seems like she's much more comfortable as a follower even as she's trying to live up to the power and responsibility to be a leader that comes with them.  We see her insecurity flare both in her rushing in on her own and all the times she looks to others for help, both a sign of someone used to being told what to do and I'd go a step further and say used to getting shut down when she tried to do things on her own or told she wasn't doing it right so learned not to trust her own instincts.  I like that her time with her parents now is actually helping her get past those hang ups.  That she's growing braver and more confident in her own abilities and trusting her guy as well as learning specific tricks and rules. 

I thought that was what they were going to be going for on the rooftop.  Iris and Barry were right about needing to take care of the core, but Nora was actually right that the lightning and weather wasn't normal.  It did feel like Barry and Iris were charging in blindly AND wasting time shooting Nora's concerns down when instead maybe that time could have been enough to pre plan for the lightning strike with some kind of way for the charge not to hurt him in the process (like if he wasn't grounded when he was hit, wouldn't the charge of just gone right through him harmlessly like birds sitting on an electric wire?)   That's what I thought they were setting up, Barry being smart, but instead, they had them ignore Nora's concerns and rush in and the lesson this week was about fear of Barry dying, not Nora growing into her intuition.  Still, I think it's something the show has been building up.  

Still, even if she get wise beyond her years and super chill with her parents, I think her underlying personality probably will always come off young.   have an older cousin that until she hit her fifties seemed like she was very young (she still sounds like Snow White) except I also knew she was the one running her family, not in a spoiled way, but managing everything, putting in all the hard work and getting stuff done.  She didn't really share that side of herself though.  She was always instead bubbly and smiling and in a way, diffident even while being tough as nails really.  So I know that sometimes personality can be mistaken for immaturity.  

Nora had her moments of very immature behavior but she's gotten past that with Iris and now with Barry (him happening at light speed)  The rest I can accept just as her personality.  She seems wide eyes and young in being open about her excitement and wonder, but also in not trying hard to conceal her pain and disappointment.  But I don't think that kind of emotional obviousness has to mean one is immature.  

[BkWurm1]

On 11/28/2018 at 6:41 AM, cambridgeguy said:

Oh no, Barry needs immediate medical attention!  If only we had some sort of device that would let us teleport him back to our HQ with its medical equipment. 

Also, what happened to the built in to the suit defibrillator that Cisco used to have installed?  It's not like this is the first time he's been shocked in the field.  

On 11/28/2018 at 4:21 PM, Rose Red said:

.

I also believe Nora asking Barry to stop being the flash was hypocritical considering she was so mad at Iris for suppressing her powers

 

I don't see Nora briefly wanting Barry to stop being the Flash so he would still be around as the same as being upset that she'd been lied to by her mother her whole life and had a huge part of who she was at her core taken from her.  Even if the motives are the same, wanting someone safe, Nora asked Barry to make a different choice.  Nora wasn't given a choice.  Also, Nora changed her mind about even asking him a day later.  The truth and her abilities were kept from Nora her whole life. So no, I don't think it was hypocritical.  If anything, it makes not telling Nora worse because even being right there feeling all the fear and worry, she still understood she couldn't ask Barry not to be a hero no matter how it worried or hurt her in the future.  

On 11/28/2018 at 8:11 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

This really bugged me too. At first I didn't even remember the wand from the show, and assumed the writers were mistaking the tv version of WW with his comic counterpart. I had to google it to recall where they'd used the wand on the Flash before.

I can't stand it either (it looks even worse on Stephen Amell). Seeing this suit and his suit from last season in the same episode (in the news clip) just made me really wonder why they changed it. Change it back!!!

What was the wand from?  I knew it wasn't WW but I still haven't figured out where it was from.

My theory (based on nothing) on the suit is they were thinking ahead to the crossover and thought either SA would look odd with his scruff stuck behind the more enclosed cowl (or that his very square jawline wouldn't fit) or they wanted to show as much of his face so it's SUPER obvious it's not Barry in the suit during the crossover.  So they made those changes early on so that would be the suit SA inherits .  Only it looks stupid on everyone .