Loathesome!: Characters We Hate

[Shannon L.]

Thanks, @proserpina65 . Hopefully, I'll enjoy the rest of the show/character enough that I can bear with it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I like the Outlander books and series for what they are (escapism with some pretty scenery and fun history stuff), but I'm under no illusions about their many many issues or the serious editing they need. If you watch any discussions long enough you quickly realize there's a lot of self-inserting going on with some of the fandom and they can be wildly territorial about the characters. I mostly lay the blame at the feet of an author with a lot of obvious hangups about religion, sex, and related traditions who can only work around them by using rape and weirdly dubious consent issues over and over as plot devices. 

Excuuuuuse me, Missy! Wot are ye doin' here, when ye ken I'm waitin' to read what ye have to say about Sunday's episode!😜

[Hiyo]

Quote

I don’t watch GoT but this is similar to why I never clicked with Abby on ER

I liked Abby. She wasn't perfect, but still interesting to watch.

[Mabinogia]

7 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Sansa Stark was dreadful. She was a snotty preteen who couldn't keep her mouth shut because of her desire to be the most popularist prettiest girl dating a prince. It was her actions that directly led to Ned being captured.

But she had such pretty hair! 

I tend to stay out of fanwars because I like characters because they have pretty hair, or because I like their clothes (Evil Queen on Once Upon a Time) and I don't care if she is a rapist/murderer or Sansa got her stupid father killed (seriously, that man was an idiot!). I like who I like. 

I didn't like Jaime because he just couldn't seem to get off his sister and while the incest part didn't bother me, the fact that Cersei was just horrible did. But I get why people do like him. That actor is yummy. 

Cersei is an interesting one for me. I love Lena Headley. I usually like the evil characters because they are so fun to watch, but I loathed Cersei. Tywin is actually the only Lanister I liked solely because Charles Dance is just divine. 

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Excuuuuuse me, Missy! Wot are ye doin' here, when ye ken I'm waitin' to read what ye have to say about Sunday's episode!😜

I may still get around to it tonight. Or not. It's been an odd week so far and I just can't muster up much enthusiasm for where the story is at the moment.

[Annber03]

47 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I tend to stay out of fanwars because I like characters because they have pretty hair, or because I like their clothes (Evil Queen on Once Upon a Time) and I don't care if she is a rapist/murderer or Sansa got her stupid father killed (seriously, that man was an idiot!). I like who I like. 

I stay out of them, too, mainly because I often tend to like all the characters on the shows I watch to some degree or another, or at least, I find them all interesting on some level. At worst, I might be neutral on certain characters. And if they're villains, then they often tend to fall into the "love to hate" category for me. I can't really think of any characters from any shows I watch, past or present, that I outright despise who aren't meant to be despised. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

5 hours ago, supposebly said:

I often find that the discussions about characters' likeability is confusing.

There is agreeing with a character's actions/excusing them and possibly having the hots for them.

And there is appreciating the writing for a character without actually liking/agreeing with what they do.

I get the sense that especially in these heated hormonal shipper discussions people often can't tell the difference.

Fair point. I’ll go back to my original Abby example for this one.

I definitely feel like we were supposed to like Abby and feel sorry for all the infinite run of trauma she had in her life. When I picked up ER again on Hulu in 2018, Abby was a beloved character and seen as one of the best on the show. Being an adult now as opposed to being in high school when ER originally aired I fully expected to understand why she was so popular and would come around and be a huge fan myself based on how she was written and how the majority of fans loved her.

Despite the fact that she was written to be practically perfect (multiple men wanting to date her and sleep with—eventually impregnating—her, being the best at sobriety out of everyone in AA in Chicago), mostly all other characters being her friend and having this hard childhood I just couldn’t feel bad for her. To me a lot of her actions were selfish and she showed very little sympathy or remorse when she hurt others and she showed no gratitude to those who tried to help her. At some point it’s like yes you have had it hard but grow up already and actually treat others with respect. I get that I was supposed to see her as this superwoman who is the best at everything and loved by all but her actions and lack of respect for others were so destructive that I still just don’t get the hype. Every time I think my mind will change she acts like a child again and I’m just like never mind…

Edited April 26, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[festivus]

14 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I like who I like. 

Right. I never get sucked into these fanwars because I like who I like and I hate who I hate. I don't feel the need to defend it.

Outlander is a funny one because I can't say I loathe any of them, but I'm not really loving any of the characters except Lord John. I will say I haven't read or watched the show past book 4. I just lost interest although I would love to get a Lord John spinoff. I hope she didn't ruin him in further books.

[Haleth]

21 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I don't think I'll ever read the got books as much as I loved the series even with the awful ending

I don't think I could stomach thousands of pages of it for many reasons. 

And I am a reader that's not the problem. The books sound tedious though. 

The only reason why I'd discourage anyone from reading the books is because he'll never finish them.  The books really are great, so much more complex than the show and full of interesting characters that were cut or underutilized in the show.

I like Ned.  I like Jon.  I like Jaime.  Shoot, I even like Sansa.

George Martin is a better writer than Diana Gabaldon, despite his losing interest in his own series.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, Haleth said:

The only reason why I'd discourage anyone from reading the books is because he'll never finish them.

That's why I regret starting them.

[tennisgurl]

15 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I tend to stay out of fanwars because I like characters because they have pretty hair, or because I like their clothes (Evil Queen on Once Upon a Time) and I don't care if she is a rapist/murderer or Sansa got her stupid father killed (seriously, that man was an idiot!). I like who I like. 

 

I think that her pretty clothes was the only reason I could stand to even look at Regina from Once Upon a Time by the end, I just could not stand that character. Thinking about her makes my head hurt, she's a character that I not only couldn't stand, but actively ruined the show. I liked her just fine as a villain in the first season, but then the show runners fell in love with her and decided to sweep all of her evil deeds, including rape and mass murder, including the murder of children, under the rug and blame all of her evil on everyone in the world except for her own shitty self. After the show decided to make her the hero she would switch between doing crappy things and not getting called out on them and just being boring, so even when she was being pretty inoffensive, like in the terrible last season, she wasn't very interesting.

Regina is the sort of character that I almost hate less as a character themselves and more for their impact on the story itself and how they are treated by the narrative. The shows entire universe ended up revolving around her, it happens so often when the writers love a character so much that they decide they can do no wrong and that every plot should come back to them no matter what, they take over the whole show so that it becomes less about the actual character being unlikable, its about how the show treats them.

[BlackberryJam]

40 minutes ago, Haleth said:

The only reason why I'd discourage anyone from reading the books is because he'll never finish them.  The books really are great, so much more complex than the show and full of interesting characters that were cut or underutilized in the show.

I like Ned.  I like Jon.  I like Jaime.  Shoot, I even like Sansa.

George Martin is a better writer than Diana Gabaldon, despite his losing interest in his own series.

Except, you know, Victarion, and all of those pages of rape the show cut out. (Someone did an analysis and the books have 4x more rape than the show. Yet seeing it is somehow more horrific than reading it.) 

Parts of the books are fantastic, but there is a whole lot of terrible crap that rightfully got cut. I was happy to eliminate the entire Fake Arya storyline. 

The first three books, fantastic, and there are some truly beautiful lines.

(How can such a night be beautiful? he asked himself. Why would the stars want to look down on such as me?)

Count me as one who hated show Cersei as well. Hated as in I didn't want to watch her. I didn't enjoy her smirking and drinking wine. Book Cersei is a hilarious mustache twirling villain and much more entertaining. 

I didn't watch Once or the later seasons of ER, but I do hate a character who eats the entire show. Example, Hannah McKay in Dexter. *shudder* Hated her so so much. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by BlackberryJam

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Except, you know, Victarion

He's part of why I found the fourth and fifth books to be something of a slog in places.  Way too much of Greyjoys who weren't Theon or Asha.  Most of the Greyjoys truly were loathsome.

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Book Cersei is a hilarious mustache twirling villain and much more entertaining.

Book Cersei was an idiot.  And I didn't find her the least bit entertaining, but then I didn't find her entertaining on tv either.

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Except, you know, Victarion

I was looking forward to him going after Dany and getting the Quentyn treatment.  Alas, we will never know.

[Katy M]

On the off chance the next book ever comes out, I'm going to have to do a reread first because I have no idea about some of the stuff you guys are talking about.

[Danny Franks]

On 4/26/2022 at 3:38 AM, BlackberryJam said:

Hi, have you met the GoT/ASoIaF communities?

Book purists v. Shownlies!

Jon fans v. Dany fans v. Jonaerys/Boat Baby fans v. JonSa fans.

Sandor lovers! Endless arguments over the best swordsman in Westeros! Debates over characters mentioned once in one paragraph of four thousand pages. 

Ugh.

It goes on and on. That fandom made me HATE Ned Stark. I even LIKE Sean Bean and don’t care about him always dying in films. But the section of the fandom that acts like Ned Stark is the bestest, moralist, awesomest character ever? Come on. Dude was in ONE season (book) of an eight season (five book) show. And he got played by a snotty teenager who beheaded him in front of his children. 

I would be fine with Ned if I didn’t feel like shoving a dirty sock in the mouths of Stark fans. But instead? Ned can suck it.

The whole point of Ned is to show what inflexible moral surety does to you in GRRM's world. He couldn't survive the politics of court and made mistakes that were his undoing (another example of GRRM nicking narrative strands of Sharon K. Penman's The Sunne In Splendour, by the way. The Ned/Robert dynamic is almost identical to the Richard/Edward dynamic, and Cersei is essentially Elizabeth Woodville). Robb makes the same mistake, marrying the girl he sleeps with because it's the right thing to do, even though it's a betrayal of the pledge he made to the Freys (something the show cocked up by making it a tragic romance instead).

Whenever anyone really bangs on about the shock of Ned dying because "he's the main character" I have to wonder whether that person has even read a fantasy novel before.

Ned isn't the main character. He's one of an ensemble of POV characters, four of whom are his children. And the incredibly common fantasy trope is that if you've got a young protagonist, they need to lose their parental figure so they can become the hero they're meant to be. Ned was a dead man from that first, opening paragraph that we see from Bran's POV.

But honestly, the ASOIAF fandom is probably worse than the GOT fandom (as much as they're two distinct entities). The ASOIAF fandom has long been full of pretend nihilists and edgelords who claim they love Littlefinger and Euron and Victarion because those are the ruthless, murderous 'badass' characters, who think Sandor should 'get' Sansa as some kind of reward for being cool.

The fantasy genre has grown up quite a lot in the last decade or so, but there are still way too many teen boys, and men with the mentality of teen boys, who only want tough guy heroes (and often want no romance, because they don't like all that sissy stuff), and I guess Ned fits the bill.

[JustHereForFood]

What I don't like about fanwars is that they often try to pit fans of some characters against each other, or assume that liking one character means that you automatically have to dislike some other character. Sansa and Arya are a good example of that. I liked Sansa and while I was often frustrated by Arya* at the beginning of the story, I didn't hate her, because there were many characters that were much worse, who were more worthy of my hate. But the endless fights between Sansa fans and Arya fans made me dislike Arya more that I did, so I had to step away from those discussions. Same with various Robins in Batman comics.

*I did not so much dislike her, but the trope that she represents which gets overused in fantasy, the free spirited, plucky tomboy who is left to do whatever she wants and be as much of a brat as she wants, while being a prodigy in fencing/archery/whatever the plot requires.

 

[Popples]

7 hours ago, Haleth said:

The only reason why I'd discourage anyone from reading the books is because he'll never finish them.

I saw a boxed set of the first four books in Wal-Mart right before season 5 or 6 was about to start and the only reason I didn't buy them was because I feel the same way about GRRM. While Dan and Dave are absolute hacks, GRRM doesn't seem to get enough of the blame that if he had at least been closer to finishing the damn books, the final seasons wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

I am listening to a rather silly "abridged" podcast where the narrator always makes fun of how he goes on and on about food descriptions and grease running down chins.

[festivus]

I solved the Victarion problem by just whole ass skipping those chapters. I don't feel like I missed anything.

[Zella]

3 hours ago, Popples said:

GRRM doesn't seem to get enough of the blame that if he had at least been closer to finishing the damn books, the final seasons wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

I agree 100%. I've read the books a couple of times. I actually think Martin himself is a talented writer when he is motivated (though he badly needs to be reined in by a good editor), but he seriously shit the bed with that series. When the show started in 2011, there was a lot of talk about how they would probably catch up with him in time for the next book, based on his writing pace, and that was the expectation that guided the show in its earlier years. But he has consistently blown those deadlines, even releasing lots of supplementary content about the world but without ever seeming to make real progress on the next book.

My suspicion is that Martin is more enchanted with the worldbuilding he's done than the corner he's written himself into, plot-wise, and that the bad reaction to the ending of the show has further demotivated him because I do think the showrunners were using ending plot points that he provided them. They didn't execute them very well, but I think the serious backlash that the ending received has made him reluctant to then follow through on finishing a book he already seemed to struggle with finishing because, contrary to what some of the more militant ASOIAF fandom thinks, those plot points that enraged people are Martin's endgames. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Zella

[nodorothyparker]

Yep yep and yep. While there's a lot that can be said about the showrunners and how at times they really didn't seem to even understand what they were adapting and so chose to gloss over the hard stuff for mindless spectacle, they were also reportedly working from an outline because Martin had spent the last decade doing everything but getting any closer to finishing the series. I swear I've read more about the supposed meeting or meetings the head nitwits had with him to map all this out on the same fan sites that are convinced Georgie Boy is wholly blameless in them not being able to do the equivalent of translating his genius from a cocktail napkin into a multimillion-dollar epic finish that satisfied everyone.

While some of the character endings we got were beyond atrocious, some wouldn't have been, or at least understandable, if there had been any connective tissue to at least show how they got there. You can't adapt what isn't written. You just end up with a speed reader version of bullet points, which is what the last two seasons mostly were. That's on Martin.

 

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

to map all this out on the same fan sites that are convinced Georgie Boy is wholly blameless in them not being able to do the

I've seen some of the more tin-foil types insist that none of what infuriated them about the end is from George, though you can see it coming from a mile away in the books. 😂

[Haleth]

Yeah, but it would have been interesting to see how he ultimately had it all play out.  So many loose ends.

[Spartan Girl]

If we can get back on the topic of characters we hate:

I fucking hated Marc’s parents in the latest episode of Moon Knight. His mom for blaming him for his little brother’s death and using it as an excuse to abuse him, and his dad for doing nothing to stop it. And no, the excuse that he was grieving and didn’t know how to handle it does not mean one lick of spit to me. And he had the nerve to look hurt that Marc wouldn’t come in to attend his mother’s funeral?! Spare me.

[JustHereForFood]

The first season is not over yet and I already fucking hate Adar on The Rings of Power. I don't remember hating a villain this much since Game of Thrones. It's obvious they are trying to make him a bit sympathetic, to not have the orcs as just some nameless villains, but I am not here for that shit. He wants a place to live? Boo Hoo, find a place that you don't have to steal from people and convert into a wasteland! Or better, understand that you were not supposed to be created in the first place and just GTFO somewhere to die out. What's next? A sympathetic Nazi in WW2 series?

No, thank you but no.

[BlueSkies]

Kelly Taylor on 90210.  She was a princess and drama queen from the get go.

Valerie was the much better and hotter character.  I mean she wasn't perfect either but I was team Val.

Also Andrea on that show.  From what I recall from her she always had a holier than thou attitude and wound up getting pregnant and not going to an Ivy League school her dream in life.  

[Hiyo]

In Andrea's case, she didn't go to an Ivy League school, then got pregnant, then transferred to an Ivy League school.

[Avabelle]

Alicent Hightower, Alicent Hightower, ALICENT HIGHTOWER 

[Popples]

3 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Alicent Hightower, Alicent Hightower, ALICENT HIGHTOWER 

I hate her father, Otto, so damn much! I hope he gets eaten by a dragon.

[BlueSkies]

This might go under unpopular opinions as well but I was never a Winnie Cooper fan from The Wonder Years.  I felt some of the weaker episodes revolved around Kevin and Winnie storylines.

It seemed all she really did was tease/toy with Kevin throughout the series.  I understand that thats supposed to show how at that age love interests not meeting you halfway can feel like the end of the world.  But having walked down the road of life it’s not worth the energy to love someone that doesn’t see you as an equal.  Kevin should have hooked up with Madeline imo on the show a girl who liked him for what he was.  And imo more attractive then Winnie

Having said all that irl Danica McKellar seems like a better human being than Fred Savage 

[Wiendish Fitch]

7 minutes ago, BlueSkies said:

This might go under unpopular opinions as well but I was never a Winnie Cooper fan from The Wonder Years.  I felt some of the weaker episodes revolved around Kevin and Winnie storylines.

It seemed all she really did was tease/toy with Kevin throughout the series.  I understand that thats supposed to show how at that age love interests not meeting you halfway can feel like the end of the world.  But having walked down the road of life it’s not worth the energy to love someone that doesn’t see you as an equal.  Kevin should have hooked up with Madeline imo on the show a girl who liked him for what he was.  And imo more attractive then Winnie

Having said all that irl Danica McKellar seems like a better human being than Fred Savage 

Agreed, Winnie Cooper was an insufferable little drip.

Danica McKellar seems all right, though, and I appreciate that she took time from acting to become a mathematic genius, so good for her.

[Katy M]

17 hours ago, BlueSkies said:

Kelly Taylor on 90210.  She was a princess and drama queen from the get go.

Valerie was the much better and hotter character.  I mean she wasn't perfect either but I was team Val.

Also Andrea on that show.  From what I recall from her she always had a holier than thou attitude and wound up getting pregnant and not going to an Ivy League school her dream in life.  

I didn't care for Valerie, either, though.  I was team Brenda.  

Andrea drove me up a wall.  It's great that she cared about things, but tone it down, especially the judgementalness.

[BlueSkies]

On 10/13/2022 at 1:38 PM, Katy M said:

I didn't care for Valerie, either, though.  I was team Brenda.  

Andrea drove me up a wall.  It's great that she cared about things, but tone it down, especially the judgementalness.

It's been years since I recall those storylines but I re-watched some clips of Valerie and the Kelly rivalry.  It's interesting many people commented they felt Valerie was karma to Kelly for show she treated Brenda.

I mean the genesis it seemed of Kelly not liking Valerie was her suspecting she smoked pot.  I understand in the 90s it wasn't as socially accepted as is today...  but wow Kelly what a judgmental bitch.  

Yes Valerie was certainly not an angel but she was still a better character then Kelly.

Tiffani Thiessen was the ultimate hottie to me as a teen but I could re-watch those clips and see she was a pretty good actress as well. 

[scarynikki12]

32 minutes ago, BlueSkies said:

I mean the genesis it seemed of Kelly not liking Valerie was her suspecting she smoked pot.

Someone pointed out, I think over at TWOP, that Kelly and some of the others judged Val HARD for smoking pot and it was the jumping off point for her being The Villain yet Val was the only one who was never a drug addict or even came close. Kelly dove right into a cocaine addiction, Donna had diet pills, Brandon had alcohol, Dylan was addicted to every substance ever, Steve smoked pot and considered moving on to heroin, and David was addicted to meth. The thing is that whenever the show has a regular deal with addiction Kelly was willing to support them and expected support when it was her turn. She still judged because she's Kelly but she never wrote the other characters off. Meanwhile Val occasionally smoking pot meant she was an irredeemable villain and everything she did was viewed through that lens. 

Even before the pot smoking Kelly was awful about Val. She couldn't wait to blab to Donna that Val's father killed himself and judge her for not being bedridden. All she knew about her at this point was she'd suffered a major family tragedy and was being friendly to Brandon's friends. Kelly, who prided herself on taking Abnormal Psych four times (which means she failed it three times) and majoring in Psychology, had no idea that people react to trauma and grief in different ways. She was threatened by Val the minute she arrived and looked for any excuse to judge her. Notice she wasn't judging Jim and Cindy who were BFF with Val's parents and also weren't bedridden with grief. They weren't a threat to Kelly like Val was so no judgment aimed their way. One thing Kelly judged Val on that still makes me laugh is in season 5 when they're all back from winter break and we learn Val decided to go to...the Bahamas? instead of returning to Buffalo. Val was completely upfront about this change in plans and Kelly's reaction is "she's a lying and deceptive bitch!!!!!" Val freely telling them about her change in break plans is the literal opposite of lying and deceiving. 

Oh! There were those episodes when Kelly was in a cult. She and Val both did well in the leader's class the previous semester, which Kelly HATED (and was hilarious), and then attended his seminar thing together. Kelly got sucked right in while Val was all "this is stupid I'm leaving" and Kelly took it as more proof at how horrible she was. Kelly was really weird.

That's not to say Val didn't do awful things as she did. But Kelly used the awful things Val did as proof her irrational hate from the start was justified.

Also Miss Perfect Psychology Student Kelly never once saw Val as a goldmine for real world application of her studies. It never occurred to Kelly that Val's self destructive behavior could be the result of childhood trauma. When David blabbed that Val had been repeatedly molested by her father growing up Kelly finally showed sympathy (of course Val was leaving the show) but there was never a moment of self reflection at how she may have come to that conclusion if she hadn't been so focused on hating her. Kelly judged Val for how she reacted to her father's suicide* yet never stopped to consider she may have been genuinely happy and why that might be? 

*The show later took things too far and revealed Val killed him which I didn't like. I preferred the initial reveal that Val was going to turn him into the authorities which led to Victor killing himself.

[Bastet]

I had quit watching long before Val joined, and only ever hate-watched with a friend anyway, but I hated everything about Kelly Taylor, so even not having seen any of this, I am enjoying the hell out of the above post.  And laughing pretty hard at deciding a college student of all people is evil for occasionally smoking pot.

The absolute worst of the many annoying things about Kelly was that godsawful baby voice she affected when talking to guys.

[BlueSkies]

5 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Someone pointed out, I think over at TWOP, that Kelly and some of the others judged Val HARD for smoking pot and it was the jumping off point for her being The Villain yet Val was the only one who was never a drug addict or even came close. Kelly dove right into a cocaine addiction, Donna had diet pills, Brandon had alcohol, Dylan was addicted to every substance ever, Steve smoked pot and considered moving on to heroin, and David was addicted to meth. The thing is that whenever the show has a regular deal with addiction Kelly was willing to support them and expected support when it was her turn. She still judged because she's Kelly but she never wrote the other characters off. Meanwhile Val occasionally smoking pot meant she was an irredeemable villain and everything she did was viewed through that lens. 

Even before the pot smoking Kelly was awful about Val. She couldn't wait to blab to Donna that Val's father killed himself and judge her for not being bedridden. All she knew about her at this point was she'd suffered a major family tragedy and was being friendly to Brandon's friends. Kelly, who prided herself on taking Abnormal Psych four times (which means she failed it three times) and majoring in Psychology, had no idea that people react to trauma and grief in different ways. She was threatened by Val the minute she arrived and looked for any excuse to judge her. Notice she wasn't judging Jim and Cindy who were BFF with Val's parents and also weren't bedridden with grief. They weren't a threat to Kelly like Val was so no judgment aimed their way. One thing Kelly judged Val on that still makes me laugh is in season 5 when they're all back from winter break and we learn Val decided to go to...the Bahamas? instead of returning to Buffalo. Val was completely upfront about this change in plans and Kelly's reaction is "she's a lying and deceptive bitch!!!!!" Val freely telling them about her change in break plans is the literal opposite of lying and deceiving. 

Oh! There were those episodes when Kelly was in a cult. She and Val both did well in the leader's class the previous semester, which Kelly HATED (and was hilarious), and then attended his seminar thing together. Kelly got sucked right in while Val was all "this is stupid I'm leaving" and Kelly took it as more proof at how horrible she was. Kelly was really weird.

That's not to say Val didn't do awful things as she did. But Kelly used the awful things Val did as proof her irrational hate from the start was justified.

Also Miss Perfect Psychology Student Kelly never once saw Val as a goldmine for real world application of her studies. It never occurred to Kelly that Val's self destructive behavior could be the result of childhood trauma. When David blabbed that Val had been repeatedly molested by her father growing up Kelly finally showed sympathy (of course Val was leaving the show) but there was never a moment of self reflection at how she may have come to that conclusion if she hadn't been so focused on hating her. Kelly judged Val for how she reacted to her father's suicide* yet never stopped to consider she may have been genuinely happy and why that might be? 

*The show later took things too far and revealed Val killed him which I didn't like. I preferred the initial reveal that Val was going to turn him into the authorities which led to Victor killing himself.

Thank You for the response.   I appreciate all the detail you put into this post.

Yeah I read through a little bit of the 90210 section here.  I had forgotten a lot of the detail you spoke of here just to sort of remind myself of the storylines.  Interesting conversations about Valerie.  Overall I recall liking her beyond how hot I thought she was but was sorta reminded she gave off vibes of wanting but not wanting to be part of "the gang".  

While it's been years I was still confident enough to post I didnt like Kelly!  It's pretty funny too considering one of my best friends names is Kelly 

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, BlueSkies said:

It's been years since I recall those storylines but I re-watched some clips of Valerie and the Kelly rivalry.  It's interesting many people commented they felt Valerie was karma to Kelly for show she treated Brenda.

I mean the genesis it seemed of Kelly not liking Valerie was her suspecting she smoked pot.  I understand in the 90s it wasn't as socially accepted as is today...  but wow Kelly what a judgmental bitch.  

Yes Valerie was certainly not an angel but she was still a better character then Kelly.

Tiffani Thiessen was the ultimate hottie to me as a teen but I could re-watch those clips and see she was a pretty good actress as well. 

Idon't think I even knew that Val smoked pot. I watched very sporadically post-Brenda.  I just remember there was some weird thing with Val and Dylan and some weird thing.  I know, I'm t a total detail buff.  

[DrSpaceman73]

I only have vague memories if her being a mean on 90210 but can't say specifically what that involved

But I loved Tiffani Thiessen on white collar

[Avabelle]

Kelly Taylor sucked. It was a shame Brenda left as she was the only character who would call her out and it would stick. After Doherty left the show it was just St.Kelly for the remaining 6 seasons.

[andromeda331]

On 10/13/2022 at 11:38 AM, Katy M said:

I didn't care for Valerie, either, though.  I was team Brenda.  

Andrea drove me up a wall.  It's great that she cared about things, but tone it down, especially the judgementalness.

I didn't like Valerie either but I do think she was treated worse then she actually was. I was Team Brenda too. I hated Kelly ever since she and Dylan hooked up behind Brenda's back while she was away and basically got off scot free for it. It also ended my love for Dylan. That was crappy thing to do Dylan and Kelly. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 10/15/2022 at 9:35 PM, Katy M said:

Idon't think I even knew that Val smoked pot.

She was smoking it in her very first episode. Toward the end of the episode. She was on the phone with her supposed best friend (whose name is escaping me right now) and called Jim and Cindy "avocado heads" when Brandon caught her.  He then suggested she do better to mask the smell, or was it that she was doing a lousy job of masking the smell, and that she better not smoke joints while in the house? The latter my brain is all fuzzy about. Then a few seasons later, when she's in a car with David, they get pulled over and there's a joint in the glove compartment?

As I've stated in the 90210 forum, I'm also TEAM BRENDA all the way, all the time and Team Shannen. I didn't like Valerie (wanting everything Brenda wanted, as far as seeking out Dylan), but I HATED Kelly, and I'll take Valerie over Kelly any time.

I also have to laugh whenever I read posters say characters should  do or pulled a Kelly Taylor ("I choose me") because, she didn't.  It lasted half a day before she went back begging Brandon to take her back; then the next season, we learn over the summer/hiatus, she hooked up with Coke Smokin' Colin.

Suuuuuuure she chose herself.

Edited October 17, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Mabinogia]

I also liked Brenda the most and hated Kelly and Andrea the most. I wanted to like Val because Tiffany Amber is stunning, and a good actress, but I think Val was more of a love to hate for me. The other one, Tori Spelling's character, I can't even remember her name, I just had no interest in at all. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

The other one, Tori Spelling's character, I can't even remember her name, I just had no interest in at all

Donna Martin. As the child of Aaron Spelling, she appeared in practically every show he produced! She even replaced the cutie patootie actress who played Bea’s daughter on Vega$! Because of course.😒

[kiddo82]

17 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Donna Martin.

I'm a little too young to have cared about 90210.  I was conscious of it, but it wasn't my thing.  But thanks to my oldest sister's obsession with it, I have the Donna Martin Graduates episode and the chant seared into my brain forever 

[scarynikki12]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

She was smoking it in her very first episode. Toward the end of the episode. She was on the phone with her supposed best friend (whose name is escaping me right now) and called Jim and Cindy "avocado heads" when Brandon caught her. 

The season 5 premiere ends with Val on the phone with her friend Ginger, talking about how boring The Gang turned out to be (she was right for the record), rolls a joint and it cuts to black as she goes to light it. This was when she was still hiding her Bad Girl ways so only the viewers were in the know.

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I also liked Brenda the most and hated Kelly and Andrea the most. I wanted to like Val because Tiffany Amber is stunning, and a good actress, but I think Val was more of a love to hate for me. The other one, Tori Spelling's character, I can't even remember her name, I just had no interest in at all. 

So did I. Tiffani is a great actress and I loved her as Kelly on Saved By the Bell and Elizabeth on White Collar. I wanted to like Val but I didn't. 

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Donna Martin. As the child of Aaron Spelling, she appeared in practically every show he produced! She even replaced the cutie patootie actress who played Bea’s daughter on Vega$! Because of course.😒

I do love Tori Spelling turning up in Scream 2 playing Sidney in Stab the movie based on the murders of the first movie. Sidney had mentioned in the first movie if they made a movie of her life they'd unfortunately cast Tori Spelling to play her. 

[Spartan Girl]

I hated Junior on Chucky with a passion. Even though he’s dead, every time Lexy refers to him as the “sweetest boy” I want to throw up. The Junior we saw on the show was NOT sweet. He was a dick to Jake from Day 1, never had problems with Lexy bullying him (at least until her infamous Halloween stunt), and actually broke up with her because she befriended Jake.

Maybe if we had seen more examples of Junior actually being nice, or at the very least more horrified that he unwittingly teamed up with his mother’s murderer and got duped into killing his own father, I’d be less annoyed. But from what I could tell, Junior was too stupid to put two and two together (and/or was more than fine with joining Chucky and Tiffany’s killer army. As a result, his last-minute heel sacrificing himself to save Lexy just felt felt forced and unearned.

[BlueSkies]

How I recall her Amanda on Melrose Place was a huge bitch….  But she was painfully attractive/hot though.   
 

Guess that’s why Heather Locklear helped the ratings 😊.  

[Hiyo]

The show also had some really good writing at that point as well, too. The end of season 1 - when Amanda joins the cast and Michael starts fully cheating on Jane with Kimberly - up until the end of season 3 is some of my favorite TV ever.

[Bethany]

For me the winner of the most loathesome character has to be Alan from Two and Half Men.  He started off decent enough but somewhere along the way he became just horrible.  Worst thing about him was the way he kept feeling superior to Charlie even though, in every single way, he became a terrible human being who made Charlie Harper look like a prince.