S04.E08: The Mountain And The Viper 2014.06.01

[mac123x]

Noticed a couple of things during the rewatch:

 

1.  Sansa's dress was definitely bird-like, but I thought that was due to her being the next potential Lady of the Vale, since House Arryn's sigil is a falcon.

 

2.  Tyrion rattled off a list of all the various names for murder, how each of them had a different "icide".  Jaime told him there wasn't one for cousin-killing; which was a call-back to the cousin he killed trying to escape from the Starks.  Very subtle.

 

3.  Oberyn's fighting style reminded me of Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace, which is not a laudatory comparison.  His clothing even looked similar, if not solid black.

Edited June 2, 2014 by mac123x

[Ms. Poly Theist]

 

I think she was sewing the dress in her chamber.

 

I thought maybe she was altering one of Lysa's dresses. You know, really fully embracing her role as de facto Lady of the Vale.

 

I was watching the rebroadcast, and wondering if the unsullied are asking why it's called "Mole's Town." Removing the aspect of most of the town being underground, it doesn't really make any sense, as names go.

[Artsda]

That fight and ending was really well done, so well done I had to look away for a couple moments.

Arya laughing at her aunt being dead was funny. Fitting considering all her family lately that is what happens to them when she gets close.

[Alapaki]

I remember when reading the books the fact that Oberyn ended up dying didn't surprise me so much (given the deaths GRRM had given us up to that point) as it made me worried for Tyrion (again, given how many "main" characters GRRM had been wiling to kill).  But I didn't really care about the character of Oberyn that much, one way or the other.

 

I kind of wish they hadn't cast such a good actor to play Oberyn.  Because it really made me bummed to see him go.

[Meredith Quill]

I couldn't look at the last few moments of Oberyn's death, it was too disgusting a way for such an awesome character to die. *sob*

I was also very surprised about the whole Sansa revealing her true identity but it does make her storyline more interesting.

The whole episode I was waiting for the TBC and was hoping it would last longer but was happy with what we did get.

[Pickles Aplenty]

[ebevan91]

I love how the Unsullied are swearing off the show if Tyrion dies. The acting is good and all but I think they could've done better with Tyrion's material. Turn him into the dick that he can be in the books. 

[rwlevin]

Oberyn stole Jojen's line, dammit! And, alas, it was the day he died.

I have nothing more to say except I don't like Ygritte anymore. It'll be nice to see her kick it in the next episode, although I'll miss Dolorous Edd.

[Haldebrandt]

Thoughts:

 

- Moles town was well-done, as was Castle Black.  The Wildlings don't fuck around, very palpable menace.

 

- Grey Worm & Missandei... Who writes this stuff?  Look: I don't mind fleshing out minor characters, and I really like what they've been doing with Meereen so far.  But that cringeworthy cheese.  

 

- Ramsay/Reek... don't care.  I wonder how many Unsullied realized that they were heading to Winterfell.

 

- Good stuff with Sansa specifically.  Otherwise, no interest in the Vale intrigue.  Still, it's good that we're right on the border of, or may have even already crossed into, TWOW territory.

 

- Arya's laughter may have made the otherwise pointless Vale detour worth it.

 

- Jorah's exile was robbed of it's emotional impact.  He's been at her side from day 1.  This summary dismissal isn't credible.  I question the decision to play it public.  Clarke, who I normally like, was problematic here.  Mostly, I blame the direction.  Did they have her looking straight ahead instead of down at him?  Or was the editing just weird?  Disappointing overall.

 

- For all its flash, I am not sure this fight displaces the Hound vs Beric, or Hound vs Polliver & Co. as my favorite fights.

 

- I had been wondering how D&D might enhance the fight, and they did, by having Oberyn ask who gave the order, and pointing to Tywin.  Very good addition.  Also, not an addition, but I second the earlier comment that Elaria's reaction was what we should have gotten from Cersei during the Joff poisoning, instead of her stiff, one note crap.  Anyway, the showrunners ongoing faithfulness to the really moments mean that we're in for a treat in two weeks.

 

- The extremely sloppy credits continue. Someone needs to get fired for this.

 

- LF, Boltons, Cersei/Tywin, and even Wildling: this entire episode is basically the triumph of evil.  We're gonna need some hope/good very fast.

 

Overall, minority opinion I'm sure, but once the shock of the last minute dissipates, I think people will come to see that that was not a very good episode..

[Independent George]

3.  Oberyn's fighting style reminded me of Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace, which is not a laudatory comparison.  His clothing even looked similar, if not solid black.

 

I've developed an irrational hatred of weapon twirling and dramatic leaps into the air. If you ever watch MMA, nobody ever uses those fancy aerial moves or big, looping cuts, because they do nothing but waste energy and telegraph your attacks. It's different when Jet Li does it for the same reason that I can accept Clint Eastwood shooting a guy off a horse fifty yards away without even aiming - if this were a conventional fantasy, it'd be perfectly acceptable. But when a big part of the appeal to GOT is its deconstruction of fantasy tropes, that flashy, whirling acrobatics detracts from my enjoyment.

 

Also: as GRRM would say, he really should have worn a helmet.

 

ETA: Ok, I guess the proper trope term is Flynning. I thought the Flynning was way out of place.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Independent George

[yellowfred]

So, two things about Sansa's dress at the end:

 

1.  I think it was supposed to be feathers, probably as a nod to House Arryn's sigil, the falcon.
2.  Thank you, Sophie Turner, now I'm going to the special hell.

 

Overall, I am still going to miss the storyline of her having to pretend to be a bastard in front of all the Lords and Ladies of the Vale, but I do like the fact that she made up the lie herself and that it puts her in a position of having more power over Littlefinger than she did in the book.  Instead of him being the only one who knows or could confirm true identity, she's the one who's vouching for him.  Also, it makes sense that Sansa would come up with a much less convoluted story than Littlefinger's, since she seems to prefer including a lot of truth when she lies.  I'm wondering if Alayne will still be part of her cover, though, since it seemed like she'd dyed her hair in the last scene.  

 

I loved almost every single thing about the fight between Oberyn and the Mountain.  In particular, I think they did a great job of emphasizing Oberyn's showmanship and how it was slowly overtaken by his anger.  I'm still not entirely sold on the new guy they have playing the Mountain, but he definitely sold the "freakish big and freakish strong" thing, which I guess was all they really needed.  I do wish we'd gotten more of Oberyn explaining his strategy, just because I love the fact that he hadn't just wanted to kill the Mountain for a long time, he'd been planning out how to do it.  At the very least, it would have been more interesting than that beetle story.  Also, I could have done without the lingering shot of Oberyn's crushed head.  

[GreyBunny]

As flashy as Oberyn was, Flynning is a pet peeve and I was annoyed he was wasting so much motion.  He's supposed to wear down the other guy, not himself.  Anyway, that was worse than in the books.  I was waiting for the mailed fist smash and totally forgot about the eye gouge.  Yikes.  That was hard to watch.  Ellaria's reaction was perfect.

 

I much prefer show Sansa to book Sansa, she's becoming her own agent now and it's much more fun to watch.  

 

MIssandei and Grey Worm are more interesting than Dany.  I'd rather follow them around.

 

Arya's mad laugh:  "Yet another near miss! HAHAHAHAHAHA!"  I think she was speaking for the audience there.  I loved their little chat about poison and couldn't help but think of Oberyn.  

 

I was disappointed Moat Cailin wasn't the horror show it was in the books with sick, starving, and gangrenous men languishing in the halls.  The lead guy spit up some blood and there were a few corpses flopped around but I thought the show missed an opportunity to drive home that those men were purposely stationed there to be abandoned and left to die.

 

ETA:  Also disappointed they left out the Crannogmen wearing down the trapped Ironborn with poisoned arrows as well as Robin being given sweetsleep.  Could have had poison as a running theme.

Edited June 2, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Dewey Decimate]

So the nubile young women are totally nekkid while washing up, while the men keep their Hammer pants on for a swim? Gimme a break. For all the horrible "Evil Wins" contained in this episode, why not at least some man-ass-et-cetera to soften the blow?

 

Oh right, that would have spoiled the whole "meat, no potatoes" vs. "potatoes, no meat" vs. "empty plate" storyline. Gods know how riveted I am to that plot.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Dewey Decimate

[RapBert]

Does anyone remember what the point of that beetle monologue was? I kind of zoned out since it didn't seem to end.

 

Otherwise, an OK episode. I finally care about Sansa's storyline. I like the change from the books, maybe now something will finally happen with her. Aray was great as well. That laughter was appropriate.

 

The fight scene did look nice. The death was just as horrible as in the book.

[Avaleigh]

Ms. Poly Theist, I was wondering if Qyburn might not be a substitution for Moon Boy andtthe Kettleblacks when Tyrion tells Jaime about Cersei and Lancel.

I watched the episode again and am inclined to agree that there were noticeable weak spots. I have minimal interest in the wildlings, I don't care that much about Ygritte, I like Missandei and Grey Worm but I can't say I care that much about their growing relationship.

Slightly bummed that the Oberyn-poisoned-Tywin theory is officially dead at least in terms of the show.

Robin doesn't seem too fussed about hiis mother's death. He made virtually no comment.

For all the people including myself who were annoyed at the way the show so casually turned Jaime into a kinslayer---were they basically trying to tell us that cousin killing doesn't count after all?

They might not have kept the moment of Tyrion vomiting the way I wanted them to but PD I thought PD positively nailed that the expression I imagine one would have in a moment like that. He looked entirely gutted.

I would have enjoyed Jaime and Cersei exchanging at least one angry look during the fight.

[Maximum Taco]

Best. Death. Ever.

 

I don't know if it makes me a bad person, but I just delighted in that. It was so horribly awesome. I was hoping for a faithful reconstruction of the book, but I was still completely surprised. The teeth flying out of Oberyn's mouth and the Mountain literally crushing his head? I never expected the show to go so far. Bravo Show. Bravo... alright I might be a bad person.

 

Sansa's changes were also pretty shocking. I actually enjoyed that change, which is a rarity for me. I don't enjoy a lot of the changes D&D make. But it makes her storyline a lot more interesting now that she's taking charge a lot more, as opposed to the books where she's taking forever to get where she's going, and I say that as someone who really enjoys Sansa's chapters. I do hope they keep in the "Harry the Heir" storyline. I always thought Sansa was heading for a moral quandry in the books with that story and I hope she still needs to do that in the show.

 

I have to give the show kudos, tonight was the first time I was actually surprised watching. Part of me seriously thought they might be letting Oberyn live and Sansa's confession was a complete blind side hit. It's nice to know we bookwalkers still have some shocks coming, even before we get to TWOW storylines.

 

Ramsay Snow, or Bolton rather, was as disturbing as he is fun once again. I just love the portrayal by Iwan Rheon, it really seems like he's having so much fun being so very very evil. It's just ridiculously spot on.

 

The rest of the episode was kind of meh. I was really hoping for more gravity in Jorah's dismissal. They (IMO) really ruined it by having Dany discover it and banish him in the same episode. It really highlighted her struggle in the books when she found out about his betrayal and then sent him on a near impossible mission to prove his worth and was hoping he might die during it so she wouldn't have to exile him. In comparison this really fizzled, and I even got the "I have loved you" line I was so hoping for. Oh well.

 

Wildlings, whatever I guess, I get that they're trying to remind us what's going to happen next episode, so a huge battle doesn't come out of nowhere. But I'm kinda struggling to care about the faceless whores in Mole Town, I barely care about Gilly and little Sam.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[ElizaD]

Sansa had a good but also unintentionally hilarious episode. Though there could be a S5 filler arc about visiting the lords of the Vale that includes character interactions and plot elements from her AFFC content, the revelation of her identity felt like a TWOW spoiler. They could easily have made the moon door her 4x10 scene, but instead they're moving terribly fast.

 

Missandei/Grey Worm have sweet chemistry, but this episode's plot felt like it was inspired by the fact that Missandei hadn't been naked yet.

 

Loved Indira Varma. That's love and horror (Lena Headey was such an unexpected disappointment during the PW).

[Avaleigh]

Who gives a dusty fuck is my new favorite phrase right now.

On second viewing I also have a new appreciation for the beetle scene because it gave us a couple of curious nuggets from the childhood the Lannister siblings shared back at Casterly Rock.

Incompetent wet nurses? Perverted maesters? Mentally ill children left to their own devices for hours at a time? (And we haven't even got to the fortune teller who terrorizes children.) Growing up there must have felt like such a dog eat dog environment.

Jaime telling Tyrion that some Maester who was employed by their family tried to touch him once made me lol for its black humor because of course the Lannister siblings would have predatory perverts to add to the pile of fucked up, disturbing incidents from their childhood. Honestly though what must that Maester have been on to have the nerve to attempt to pull some shit like that with Tywin Lannister's golden boy?

I didn't think Ellaria's reaction to the death would have been an appropriate one for Cersei. My problem with Cersei's reaction was more to do with her dialogue and body language than any thoughts that she ought to have been screaming in shocked terror as Joffrey died. I especially thought the moments in the book when she's calling to her father for help should have been kept. Ellaria was in a situation where she instantly knew it was over whereas Cersei was in a situation where she was hoping against hope that something could be done. . To me it made sense that she'd have that blank helpless thing going on. If Joffrey had been physically attacked though I could easily see something like that causing a scream similar to Ellaria's.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Avaleigh

[ambi76]

I love how the Unsullied are swearing off the show if Tyrion dies. The acting is good and all but I think they could've done better with Tyrion's material. Turn him into the dick that he can be in the books.

Yeah, I cringed when someone called him "the moral center of the show". If Tyrion fucking Lannister is the moral center of your story, you're in deep dodo. Well, kinda explains the rest of it, all right.

Edited June 2, 2014 by ambi76

[jellysalmon]

Ok they nailed the Trial. It was even worse than I imagined it would be. I agree that the rest of the episode wasn't super amazing though. Also, is the next episode going to be entirely at the wall? Yawwwwn. Wake me up when we get to episode 10.

[KatWay]

They're moving really fast with Sansa's storyline. Maybe because they know the Alayne chapters are pretty boring in the books. Show!Sansa feels like a very different character to me compared to Book!Sansa. Interesting to see in which direction they'll take her. Though I feel like to make Sansa look smarter they made Littlefinger look dumb. The man is an expert liar and manipulator and you're telling me he couldn't come up with a better cover story? At the very least he should have suggested something like that to Sansa.

 

Arya's laughing was the most lighthearted moment of the episode and isn't that just sad. I wonder if they'll play it as this pushing her to go to Braavos or if they'll include (I hope so much for that but I'm just not sure they will) her seeing her mother's body through Nymeria.

[Haldebrandt]

it's amusing to see so many strain to find some kind of explanation for that awful, awful beetle monologue.  That one was even worse than Alton Lannister's endless drooling reminiscence.  No amount of explanation will make up for the experience of sitting through that. My heart sank deeper with every meaningless sentence, to the point where I paused three times in disbelief.  Worst scene of the season, and possibly of the show.

 

What kills me is that these awful monologues are probably the writers favorite bits, the chance to deliver a something wholly of their own creativity.  That's why they usually have nothing to do with GRRM's world, and involve newly made up characters and events. It's like "look! we too can write a great and meaningful monologue from scratch!" Awful.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Haleth]

I also really liked what the writers have done with Sansa.  It's great to see her take things into her own hands for a change, however with her parents as role models for taking charge she'd better stay clear of sharp objects.  Having her tell the Vale lords who she is, along with the story about how they had once met, gave her their sympathy and protection, far more than the bastard daughter of Littlefinger would have gotten.

 

I guess I'd suppressed any memory of the specifics of Oberyn's death.  I kept waiting for the Mountain to stab him cleanly.  Silly me, this is GRRM we're talking about.  Note to self:  skip the last few minutes of this episode on rewatch in the future.  The gore was too much for me. :P

 

The beetle story seemed endless and irrelevant.

 

Poor Arya.  Poor Hound.  Poor Jorah.  Poor Ellaria.

this entire episode is basically the triumph of evil.

 

But right after this things start to turn around IMO.  Sansa, Arya, and Bran each find their purpose, as does Jon until, well... you know.

 

Yep, yep, the comment about dying on one's chamber pot and the conversation about poisoning were great foreshadowings.

[Shriekingeel]

The awful "-icide" dialogue was reminiscent of the worst dialogue of Season 2, in which characters went on and on about points of vocabulary and grammar. ("Plots and schemes are the same thing" "that's why they're called wildlings" etc. )

[Helena Dax]

 

Can someone please tell me how Tyrion gets out of his death sentence in the books?

 

Varys and Jaime help him to run away.

 

 

So the nubile young women are totally nekkid while washing up, while the men keep their Hammer pants on for a swim?

 

 The men were Unsullied: I guess the show didn't want to go there.

 

Sansa's scene was my favourite moment in this episode. She was so smart! She saved Littlefinger, yes, but confessing her true identity also gave her people who could protect her from Littlefinger, And then she chose a dress who made her look like Cat (a bit). I'm so proud of her!

 

The fight at the end was awesome, but of course, the ending made me sad. Poor Oberyn. He'll be sorely missed. And I loved the conversation between Jaime and Tyrion. I understand why Tywion would obsess over thousands and thousands of dead beetles just because. Sometimes you just need to find some rules and explanations because life seems so pointless, like a cosmical joke; when you don't find those rules it's like an itch that never goes away. 

[patchwork]

I kept waiting for the beetle monologue to reach a point like young Tyrion realising some people just like to kill things but nope simply filler. At least Cat's Jon Snow prayer wheel one was character relevant.

 

Because of the changes in Dany's plot I've been wondering how the show would handle Jorah's betrayal, boringly is apparently the answer. 3 scenes and it's over. The scene in the throne room lacked the emotional punch I wanted for them to part on. He was the man she trusted before all others, someone who had been through it all with her and this scene should have hurt. I've loved their relationship, through them is how I mange to care a bit about the cardboard Essos cast and I'm going to really miss them.

 

I like the changes to Sansa's storyline it works better for me than what the book gave us. Perhaps this tour of the Vale is a different take on Littlefinger's efforts to nudge Robin out of the way and put Harry and Sansa via marriage in his place.   

[Ms. Poly Theist]

 

 

Ms. Poly Theist, I was wondering if Qyburn might not be a substitution for Moon Boy andtthe Kettleblacks when Tyrion tells Jaime about Cersei and Lancel.

 

Ah! Yes, I guess they could. Although it would have been nice if we'd gotten SOME hint of it on the show. I don't think we've seen Cersei's carnal appetite since Lancel (since they took away her consent in the scene in the sept). This is yet another example of Cersei's softening in the show. They're failing to show her sleeping with anyone who can help her achieve her desired results, and this takes away a lot of her agency with regard to plotting. It also takes away from the growing impression that she is a shitty, dangerous ruler, which was hugely gaining steam in the books by this point.

 

 

 

Slightly bummed that the Oberyn-poisoned-Tywin theory is officially dead at least in terms of the show.

 

I wonder if Ellaria Sand is going to get to do this. Presumably she could join Tywin for a meal before she takes Oberyn's body back to Dorne. I'm sure Tywin would want to meet with her, make sure Dorne isn't going to go to war over this, since after all it was Oberyn's choice to champion Tyrion and he knew the risks, blah blah blah. I imagine they could expand Ellaria's role to join her with the Sand Snakes — I mean, they've got Indira Varma; one would hope they would find some good use for her!

[quarks]

I knew it was coming and I still jumped when Oberyn died. 

 

But show, seriously? You change Sansa's arc/story, convincing me that maybe - just MAYBE - there's a tiny sliver of hope that Oberyn might win after all - MAYBE - and then show me Oberyn being all massively cool and then kill him anyway?

 

SNIFFLE.

 

I have to say, I was delighted at the expansion of the Missandrei/Grey Worm romance, just because I desperately needed something sweet to balance out this episode, even if that romance is bound to end with both of them severely severely dead in some horrible, horrible scene that I haven't had enough coffee to envision yet but which GRRM is probably cackling over as I type.

[roguetamlin]

I couldn't watch it last night and reading people's reactions I don't know if I can watch it tonight. Oberyn's death is a turning point for me in the books. I have lost hope for any of the adults and most of the children. At what point does something just become too depressing to watch no matter how pretty?

[OakGoblinFly]

I don’t know what it was exactly, but something felt “off” in this episode to me.  For an episode with Viper and Mountain in the title, I wish there was more Viper and Mountain (though that death was a gruesome as I remember from the books).

 

I did enjoy the entire Sansa scene and I like the look she gave to Petry when she was sewing in her room ……. She is learning to play the game.

 

I got a little chuckle out of Petry mentioning people die in all sorts of ways – in bed or over their chamber pots.

 

The scene between Jamie and Tyrion in the jail cell was interesting.  I did like Jamie getting excited when he realized just how good of a fighter is/was.  Too bad Oberyn did not review the Evil Overlord list prior to the fight ….. if he did, he might have survived.  I did like the fact that Obeyrn’s mantra was kept.

 

I could have done without the misguided romantic adventures of the unsullied and the hand maiden – I’d rather have that time spent in King’s Landing.

 

I wasn’t pleased with the directorial choices in the scene where Dany confronts Jorah; it should have been emotional yet (for me) it fell completely flat.  I understand that Dany was trying to tamp down her anger, hurt, betrayal and that she didn’t want to look at Jorah – however the choice to have her stare off into the distance and NOT make eye contact combined with the flat monotone delivery just made her appear vapid and emotionless.  It would have been more affecting if Dany turned away from Jorah and there was a little quiver in her voice.

 

If I were Arya, I too would have busted out laughing at learning of Lysa’s death …… once again the Hound is foiled in his attempt to collect a randsom.

 

So are we supposed to think that Yrigette isn’t that bad because she let Gilly and Baby Sam live?  I’m sorry, I don’t find anything likeable or redemptive about her.

 

I knew the Night’s Watch was in bad shape in the book – not this bad though (100 men) --- I wonder if that is laying the groundwork for Jon’s leadership and battle insight as well as making Stannis’ arrival more impactful?

[cosmic1]

I couldn't watch that last scene, either.  The sound was gruesome enough.  I will miss Oberyn; I became attached to him on the show.

 

I am so glad they streamlined Sansa's storyline and dispensed with the whole illegitimate daughter thing.  Didn't she just take on Lysa's wardrobe, since she didn't have any of her clothes and no one is going to be using Lysa's anymore? 

 

We have 2 episodes left, right?  I am interested to see if all the action is next week or if they are going to split it up.  Do you think we'll even get to see Lady Stoneheart this season? 

[OakGoblinFly]

I'm also wondering if next week's episode will only be at the Wall a la the "Blackwater" episode where it stayed at Kings Landing the whole time...

I'm so much more interested in Show!Sansa than I am Book!Sansa. 

 

 

I think Sansa and Jon greatly improve by NOT being in their heads.

I really liked that Sansa came up with her story on her own rather than having Petyr coach her to say it.  She's starting to become a player in the game instead of a pawn, that's great.  Sophie Turner was outstanding.

 

Theon and company, I don't care.  The only thing I liked about that was it gave them an excuse to include Moat Cailin in the opening title sequence.

 

 

Sophie Turner has been excellent this season.

 

And while I was bored with Theon's story line I am still very, very impressed with Alfie Allen ..... so many emotions played across his face when he went to the garrison with Ramsey's demands.

[blixie]

 

I won't root for Jon Snow, Reek, Jamie, Stannis, any Bolton, Brienne, Dany or any other guy/girl anytime soon.

 

I root for Davos, always and forever, whoever has him in their corner is going to win, once Stannis kicks it that is, because REALLY George, do not be making my man front for the worst candidate in the race.

 

The best part of this episode was hands down the changes to Sansa's storyline, revealing she's a Stark is a huge game changer, seeing her take some control of her life was fantastic, and especially seeing her go all black feathers of Melisandre with Petry and Robynn. Werk it girl. I especially loved how she turned the knife on LF by describing how pathetic he was (small, poor, in love with his betters) when he was growing up at Riverrun. I do wonder how this fits together with LF larger plan, which remains really obscure to me even in the book, so she marries Harry and the Heir. AND? I could easily see them subbing an aged up Robyn in for Harry, and I like the idea that underestimated LF might see a bit of himself in Robyn, even though he's still resentful and disgusted by him.

 

I also loved Arya's laughter and the Hound's face when they learned of Lysa's death, although this near miss is bit much since I can't believe LF didn't have an agent at the Bloody Gate who wouldn't immediately have snatched Arya up.

 

Sight, ah my beloved Oberyn, it's too bad The Mountain employed Playing Possum to get the upper hand, but I'll never fault you for wanting your vengeance, it's all you lived for beside banging, and you were hardly invested in a long game. I still really hope they drop a hint that he poisoned Tywin, but lord knows they don't want to dent Tywin's BAMF status. UGH. 

 

Yet at the same time, I can not stop myself from loving Roose Bolton. I love his eye rolling disgust at Ramsay, even as he hands him his legitimacy and smoking hulk of Winterfell. The look on his face was totally, everyone has their cross to bear, lucky me, this crazy motherfucker is mine.That voice, that voice is like honey wine.

[kulfi]

2.  Tyrion rattled off a list of all the various names for murder, how each of them had a different "icide".  Jaime told him there wasn't one for cousin-killing; which was a call-back to the cousin he killed trying to escape from the Starks.  Very subtle.

 

did not even catch that as a callback to his escape.  very cool.

 

It'll be nice to see her kick it in the next episode, although I'll miss Dolorous Edd.

 

Edd doesn't die in the books.  Has the actor said he is going?  Am I missing something?

Edited June 2, 2014 by kulfi

[Mya Stone]

Does anyone remember what the point of that beetle monologue was? I kind of zoned out since it didn't seem to end.

 

 

I believe the point of it was the futility of life and death, and the will of the gods vs the will of man. Which is a nice sentiment, and I agree with it, especially as it's a running theme throughout the books...but that entire story was just...no. Nice sentiment, awful execution. 

[Alapaki]

I think we were supposed to take something away from the fact that Tyrion let the beetle live.  But, for the life of me, I can't figure out what that is.

 

Separately, is anyone aware of any resource that lines up scenes from the show with chapters in the book?  I'd like to go back and re-read how things were done in the book, but it's been awhile and the chapter layout isn't that helpful.

 

I did find this article that lays out how many chapters for each character have been covered and how many are left.

[benteen]

I remember when reading the books the fact that Oberyn ended up dying didn't surprise me so much (given the deaths GRRM had given us up to that point) as it made me worried for Tyrion (again, given how many "main" characters GRRM had been wiling to kill).  But I didn't really care about the character of Oberyn that much, one way or the other.

 

I kind of wish they hadn't cast such a good actor to play Oberyn.  Because it really made me bummed to see him go.

 

You know, I kept wondering if that's why we didn't get another scene with Oberyn tonight (like in the books when he invites Tyrion to go to Dorne with him) because they didn't want audiences to get more attached to him.

[Andeleisha]

Do you guys think that the show has invested too much in Tyrion? No one can deny that Peter Dinklage is an incredibly talented actor and Tyrion is a wonderful character, but when I see people in the Unsullied forums saying that they are going to quit watching the show if he dies, that makes me sad. I wonder if the show is really doing its job if people aren't invested enough in the whole story to abandon it if one character dies.

 

I know this is somewhat of a moot point, since of course, Tyrion DOESN'T die, but I guess I'd really like to see the show give us some other stories to get excited about.

[Tryangle]

Did not like how the Ygritte meets Gilly thing played out. I had to convince myself that it was real from some kind of intuition from Ygritte that this was a fellow wildling versus a regular 'southerner' who needed to be killed, baby or otherwise. Seriously. Ygritte just stabbed a woman, there's blood dripping through the floorboards above. I dunno. Thank goodness we didn't see a Thenn munch on someone's thigh during the battle, I suppose. Mole's Town was dank and disgusting enough without the tavern wench belching through Bear and the Maiden Fair. Give me popped eyeballs anyday (more below, heh).

 

Got a little bored during the Night Watch scene, sorry. Probably just need the war to happen to get it over with.

 

Moat Cailin was interesting enough, I just got giddy at seeing the new credits location. Reek played it well, the (former) leader died as expected (shades of Theon getting blindsided by Dagmar two seasons ago), the flaying was gross, and Team Bolton getting their triumph on was pretty cool.

 

- Jorah's exile was robbed of it's emotional impact.  He's been at her side from day 1.  This summary dismissal isn't credible.  I question the decision to play it public.  Clarke, who I normally like, was problematic here.  Mostly, I blame the direction.  Did they have her looking straight ahead instead of down at him?  Or was the editing just weird?  Disappointing overall.

 

- For all its flash, I am not sure this fight displaces the Hound vs Beric, or Hound vs Polliver & Co. as my favorite fights.

 

- I had been wondering how D&D might enhance the fight, and they did, by having Oberyn ask who gave the order, and pointing to Tywin.  Very good addition.  Also, not an addition, but I second the earlier comment that Elaria's reaction was what we should have gotten from Cersei during the Joff poisoning, instead of her stiff, one note crap.  Anyway, the showrunners ongoing faithfulness to the really moments mean that we're in for a treat in two weeks.

 

...

 

Overall, minority opinion I'm sure, but once the shock of the last minute dissipates, I think people will come to see that that was not a very good episode..

 

Something did appear off with Dany's exile speech to Jorah, I assume the direction was to have Dany look upwards and away all the time so that she wouldn't look directly at Jorah, and possibly break down crying. Ian Glen, for his part, I thought was pretty dang good expressing his hurt and desperation.

 

There was perhaps too much twirling around, as someone pointed above, that took away some of the realness of the scene. This isn't Sylvio Forel dancing around his opponent, it's twirling and spinning the spear like some rhythmic gymnastics routine, that kind of betrayed what Bronn pointed out about trying to wear down your opponent. Yes, Gregor had the heavy armour on, but he didn't chase after Oberyn for nearly enough time to convey how worn down he was getting in the arena.

 

We didn't get the beheading of an onlooker, but we got the eye gouging and skull cracking, which was pretty dang intense. I guess next episode we'll see or hear the Mountain reeling in pain from his own wounds.

 

Missandei/Grey Worm have sweet chemistry, but this episode's plot felt like it was inspired by the fact that Missandei hadn't been naked yet.

 

Loved Indira Varma. That's love and horror (Lena Headey was such an unexpected disappointment during the PW).

 

I'm crazy for Missandei because her actress is freaking gorgeous, and that's well before seeing her body, so it kind of dulled my impression that the Grey Worm romance/where's the stones and pillars thing was perhaps unneeded filler at the time. Then again, they likely have more in store for these guys down the road (hopefully not ending with a death).

 

As for Ellaria, indeed. The actress has made us far more invested in her future than we were from the books (speaking for myself).

 

Yeah, I cringed when someone called him "the moral center of the show". If Tyrion fucking Lannister is the moral center of your story, you're in deep dodo. Well, kinda explains the rest of it, all right.

 

Indeed. Tyrion's actor may be the centrepiece and most well-known person, but when you think 'moral center', it can only be one or more of Davos or Sam. Maybe Bran or Missandei if they come into more focus.

[MrWhyt]

 

I wonder if the show is really doing its job if people aren't invested enough in the whole story to abandon it if one character dies.

There are lots of shows where you see a faction of viewers attaching themselves to one character (or relationship) and professing that that is the only reason they watch the show. That's the viewer's problem IMO it's not really the show's job to keep everyone happy, especially in the case like this where it's an adaptation of existing material.

[Andeleisha]

There are lots of shows where you see a faction of viewers attaching themselves to one character (or relationship) and professing that that is the only reason they watch the show. That's the viewer's problem IMO it's not really the show's job to keep everyone happy, especially in the case like this where it's an adaptation of existing material.

 

Right but GoT isn't like other shows: it makes a big deal out of defying the traditional hero arc, and how no character is wholly good or wholly bad. There isn't supposed to be just one character the audience is rooting for, which is why I'm wondering if the show has favored Dinklage too much that people think everything will fall apart without him. 

[elzin]

I wasn’t pleased with the directorial choices in the scene where Dany confronts Jorah; it should have been emotional yet (for me) it fell completely flat. 

...

 

If I were Arya, I too would have busted out laughing at learning of Lysa’s death …… once again the Hound is foiled in his attempt to collect a randsom.

 

So are we supposed to think that Yrigette isn’t that bad because she let Gilly and Baby Sam live?  I’m sorry, I don’t find anything likeable or redemptive about her.

 

I keep reading how awesome Emilia was in the GTFO scene, but I thought she was awful.  It was so distracting. Maybe it wasn't her choice or was edited funny, but I hated it, and normally I like her acting just fine.  If they're going to be in the same room and she's going to not look him in the eye, maybe she should have sat on the throne and been imperious. 

 

I would have laughed like Arya too.

 

I liked book!Ygritte, but I'm not liking tv!Ygritte  much anymore. Since we don't have Wildling POV chapters, we only saw their awfulness through that one chapter of Jon's where he breaks with them.  How are we supposed to feel sorry for them, want Jon to let them settle the other NW castles when they are slaughtering everyone in The Gift?

 

[Avaleigh]

Ooh, I like youridea MsPolyTheist, about Ellaria possibly bbeing the one to poison Tywin.

As far as there not really being any set up for Qyburn being a possible replacement for Moon Boy and the Kettleblacks, I felt like that might have been the point of havingJJaime question Cersei about whether or not she lets Qyburn touch her. Cersei then asks Jaime if he's jealous.

I just realized that Arya's laughter in this episode sounded like the laughter of Moaning Myrtle in the Harry Potter movies.

Jorah's banishment was a lot more effective in the books IMO. I also feel like book . Dany would have forgiven show Jorah based on his style of apology and lack of arrogance.

What would have happened if Jorah had taken that paper away from Barristan? Honorable or not I thought it was a stereotypical boneheaded good guy move to tell a person that they're busted and about to get caught but wait, let me show you the only piece of evidence that proves that what I have to say is true. I love Barristan but really.

[Irishmaple]

Did Roose legitimize Ramsey in the books?  I honestly don't remember that.  I thought Roose was hoping for heirs from Fat Walda.  I suppose I can understand why Roose did it.  Any heirs from Walda will be half-Frey and that name will be mud in the North for generations.  Assuming Ramsey doesn't act against Walda and any heir she might provide.  On the other hand, I'd be terrified to legitimize Ramsey because he might kill me in my sleep for the Warden of the North job. 

 

I'm not liking Ygritte much either at the moment.  It's not like those sex workers were living comfortable lives of privilege, and she killed them without blinking.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Irishmaple

[Hanahope]

Do you guys think that the show has invested too much in Tyrion? No one can deny that Peter Dinklage is an incredibly talented actor and Tyrion is a wonderful character, but when I see people in the Unsullied forums saying that they are going to quit watching the show if he dies, that makes me sad. I wonder if the show is really doing its job if people aren't invested enough in the whole story to abandon it if one character dies.

 

I know this is somewhat of a moot point, since of course, Tyrion DOESN'T die, but I guess I'd really like to see the show give us some other stories to get excited about.

 

 

Well, Tyrion hasn't died "yet" that we know about.  And I would caution viewers about getting too attached to anyone in this story, since its pretty obvious that GRRM kills people off left, right and center.

 

Also, supposedly, GRRM has given the producers some info on how the story ends, which must be handed down in some ways to the writers, at least in a general format.  Perhaps they already know, or have a good idea, that Tyrion survives and is somewhat successful.  I'm hoping we do get a bit more of Sansa's story line, extended into the next book, since she also seems to be one character I'm counting on to survive and survive well.

 

They certainly do a good job casting people in one/two-season roles and its a shame we don't get flashbacks to see some of these actors again.

[Catboxlimo]

I was just pleased Sansa got a new dress.

 

Sansa's dress looked very avian.

1.  Sansa's dress was definitely bird-like, but I thought that was due to her being the next potential Lady of the Vale, since House Arryn's sigil is a falcon.

 

All I could think was "Holy shit, she put a bird on it."

[Tryangle]

The other thing that this episode probably lacked: a scene where Oberyn approached Tywin (with Cersei present, and oh I suppose Mace and Pycelle too, bleh) to inform them that he'd be Tyrion's champion. Then Cersei would be incredulous (remember she's trusting Dorne to keep Myrcella happy), Pycelle would mumble away as usual and Tywin would be his usual stoic and unflinching self before casting him away.

[blixie]

 

Did Roose legitimize Ramsey in the books?  I honestly don't remember that.  I thought Roose was hoping for heirs from Fat Walda.  I suppose I can understand why Roose did it.  Any heirs from Walda will be half-Frey and that name will be mud in the North for generations.  Assuming Ramsey doesn't act against Walda and any heir she might provide.  On the other hand, I'd be terrified to legitimize Ramsey because he might kill me in my sleep for the Warden of the North job.

 

Yeah that's what I thought too but apparently he does obtain the legitimization, but I think that is to facilitate Ramsay's marriage to "Arya", and gain Roose Winterfell/solidify his Northern power base. Without that motivation this makes my Bad Bitch Roose look more foolish than he is.

 

 

Well, Tyrion hasn't died "yet" that we know about.

 

Right and overall I'm not sure the Unsullied only care about Tyrion so much as they see Tyrion as the line in the sand. Dany's popularity is in/out, as is Jon's, but due to a great deal of whitewashing Tyrion has remained a mostly good guy, and more importantly ENTERTAINING character. His wit, his pathos, his intelligence, all have remained, w/o the darker aspects which balanced it out in the book. It's  hard to say if they're going to make him as nasty as he comes off in ADwD, but even his murder of Shae might hit the Unsullied hard. 

 

But I'd say a lot of book walkers feel the same, that almost all of the characters have been stuck in an unending cycle of SUCK for two books, 2k pages, and ten years, and it's not  like a ASoS left all the characters in good spot. GRRM and the showrunners have got to start giving some of these characters unambiguous wins, however small, and I hope what we saw with Sansa was an indication of that.

[benteen]

Book Dany definitely would have forgiven Show Jorah.  Based on the changes to the show, I did buy it though.

 

The writers did undermine Littlefinger by having him act (killing Lysa) without any kind of a plan.  But it's par for the course with how they've portrayed LF on the show.  Remember him bringing up Cersei's "relations" with her brother in front of the royal guards?  Book LF would have never done that.

 

That being said, I didn't mind it here as it was a surprise what they did with Sansa and it did give her character serious agency.  Hell, you could even argue that LF "paid it forward" with all the lessons he gave Sansa.  The interesting thing from here will be that LF actually will have a check on his interal manueverings.  How things go from there is anyone's guess.

[BabyMo]

I thought it was an interesting move to have Sansa reveal herself. It makes me wonder what the future holds for Sansa and Petyr. Sansa is definitely looking out for Sansa, but I wonder if Petyr is foolish enough to think that Sansa is into him. She did kiss him back, and she did lie at the inquest to protect him...but like I said, Sansa is looking out for Sansa and both of those things ensure her own protection. But Sansa does hold romantic notions about chivalry, and does seem to acknowledge that Petyr did a lot of things to protect her, so who knows how that will affect her perception of him. I'm looking forward to see how this plays out next season.

I have to add that the whole trial of the minstrel and general Alayne subterfuge could have eaten up half a season.