S11.E06: Demons Of The Punjab

[benteen]

Unmemorable monsters, too much exposition and an overuse of the sonic screwdriver are my problems with the new seasons.  But I do love the main characters and like the way they are doing the historical episodes.  I also like that there are real stakes again this season instead of Moffat's "Everyone lives!" mantra.

Edited November 12, 2018 by benteen

[Mabinogia]

4 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

People got tired of the same old same old and quit watching.

Which is why it's fine that this season is not the same old same old of the past several seasons. There have been plenty of shows I have stopped watching because they got stale. I'm not a completest. I was when I was younger, had to stay with the show till the end, but not anymore. I am watching this season because I am enjoying the hell out of this season. I love Jodie's energy as the Doctor. I love the companions' enthusiasm for what they are experiencing and their gung ho efforts to pitch in. I have enjoyed the places they've been. I enjoy the seasons I like and skip the ones I don't. 

[libgirl2]

42 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

Hate to say it but, the roots got canceled. We need to remember that. People got tired of the same old same old and quit watching. And the show died. Not something to be emulating. 

I don't know if it was just a case of getting tired. When they added Colin Baker (who's audios I love) and tried to make him  much like Doctor One, he came off as cruel (my husband still won't forgive his Doctor for strangling Peri)  and it was a mess..... then they tried to change it up with Sylvester McCoy. Suddenly the Doctor was Merlin, stories had "deep" meanings.....The stories were more of a mess, a waste of a great companion like Ace. I still don't know what the heck Ghostlight was about! lol! I think you can tweak but don't tweak too much. 

The thing this show did well for many of the classic/ new years was that you could change to the Doctor with a regeneration but the basis of the show was still there. 

Edited November 12, 2018 by libgirl2

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

He's actually returning the show to it's roots. He's not destroying the franchise. He's paying far more respect to it's history than Moffatt, who basically rewrote the Doctor's entire history to make Clara special, ever did. This isn't the comic book version of Who we've been getting, but one with more depth in it's simplicity than all the grand epic universe threatening aliens and most special companions ever to exist until the next one who is even more special than the last but not as special as Clara, because no one will ever be as special as Clara. Honestly, if Moffatt didn't ruin this franchise I don't think it's humanly possible.

4

Moffat didn't ruin the franchise.  Many, many people loved what he did with it, I know you (specifically you, because I've read many of your comments about Clara) did not enjoy his vision of Who-dom, but I did, and this version that Chibnall is giving us does not feel like Doctor Who, to me.  Different strokes.  I did say that I've not watched the earlier versions of Doctor Who, only new Who, but even this version of Who seems sadly disconnected from the previous. 

It's not that it's bad storytelling, it isn't.  I like the stories, and I like the characters.  It's just not Doctor Who. 

[DanaK]

I've actually rewatched this quite a few times since the first viewing last night and it remains incredibly moving, especially the heartwrenching scene towards the end between the brothers and the poor team being unable to intervene. I was aware of the Partition of India before now but not necessarily all the details. The Punjab apparently got the worst of the violence, displacement and near-genocide. People still haven't learned how not to get riled up to hate and murder of their neighbors who might be different from them. The Holocaust, this, Rwanda, Bosnia, etc. It goes on and on. They really did do a great job boiling this huge event down to a small number. As said above, there's the saying, paraphrased, "that one person's death is a tragedy; millions are a statistic". Showing this episode on Nov 11, Remembrance Day for World War I, had to be intentional; if not, it was a pretty moving juxtaposition

Be sure to watch the end credits. The haunting Indian score in the episode temporarily replaces the Doctor Who theme or is a variation on it. And that score was great by the way. Very haunting, moving and well done

The guest actors were just fantastic in this episode, especially Prem and young Umbreen. The casting folks continue to do a great job this season. Like Yaz and probably the rest of the team, I was in conflict about wanting Prem to live

One big point that remains unclear is why didn't the Doctor know what happened to the aliens and their world? But at the same time, they didn't say when their home world had been destroyed, so it could have happened in the far future (or they kept it quiet). It would be interesting to see the Doctor meeting one of the alien species again, only for it to still be an assassin because it's before their world's destruction

I agree there's too much reliance on the sonic instead of the Doctor's brains. I think this is a problem with any scifi series with high tech, including Star Trek. Doctor Who doesn't have a corner on it. I guess they can easily fix it with the next Doctor disdaining using it very much and preferring his/her own brainpower

Why wasn't Yaz particularly interested or excited in seeing her great-grandmother? She seemed utterly focused on her grandmother

[Mabinogia]

3 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

and this version that Chibnall is giving us does not feel like Doctor Who, to me.  Different strokes. 

Exactly. Different strokes. I don't get how this doesn't feel like Doctor Who simply because to me it does. So I can't quite understand what it is that is different to others that makes it not Doctor Who. It's got the Doctor, it's got companions. It's got space travel, time travel, humor, lessons about hope, aliens, some creepy as fuck (that tooth monster, some adorable, that little guy from last ep, yes, I'm terrible with names, sorry). I'm not trying to say you're wrong for feeling that. You're not the only one who has said it. I just can't figure out what it is that is different beyond the fact we're not getting Daleks and Cybermen this season. To me that's not a bad thing. After what he did to the Weeping Angels I think it's best to not keep going back to the same well over and over. 

The fascinating thing with this show is that it has had many different show runners, many different casts, and it's not all going to appeal to everyone all the time because they are each going to put their own spin on it, each bring their own ideas and sensibilities to it. I did like Moffatt in the beginning, I just think he got too carried away with his "cleverness" and I strongly dislike that he inserted Clara into the entire history of the show. That, IMO, is disrespectful to the show, to the previous Doctors and show runners, and to the fans who have loved this show long before he arrived. But to each their own. I'm sure people thought that was brilliant. The thing that drove me crazy about him was that I think he is one of the best single episode writers this show has ever had. 

Back to this ep. One of my favorite tiny little moments was when the aliens finally explained what they were doing there and the Doctor realized she had stolen something very sacred from them she truly felt terrible about it. It was a nice little reminder that even the Doctor can sometimes misunderstand what is going on and make mistakes. Jodie was great in that scene.

4 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Why wasn't Yaz particularly interested or excited in seeing her great-grandmother? She seemed utterly focused on her grandmother

I would guess it was because she never personally met her great-grandmother and so didn't feel as strongly emotionally attached. I also wonder if Grandmother spoke much of her, since great-gran was pretty against the wedding/marriage, perhaps Nani didn't like talking about her so Yaz didn't feel she knew her. That's all I could think of. I imagine I'd be more into seeing my grandmother, who I knew only as an older woman, as a young woman just starting her life than I would my great grandmother who is really just an old photograph and a name to me. 

[Llywela]

What @Mabinogia said. If I had a pound for every time Doctor Who fans have clutched their pearls over a new showrunner with a new vision and complained that 'it just isn't Doctor Who anymore', I would be very rich. This season is perfectly Doctor Who. It is a slightly different interpretation of the show than Moffat's, which in turn was a slightly different interpretation than Davies's, but that's okay. That's what Doctor Who is all about. It's what Doctor Who has always been about. Doctor Who, at its heart, is a show about a time travelling alien wandering around the universe with a bunch of friends - which is exactly what this season is giving us. Every so often the style and focus changes slightly, but that's a good thing, because not everyone will like every era of the show, so that over time everyone gets to see the kind of Who they want. If this era isn't for you, so be it. Buckle up and wait for the next one to come along. But don't try to claim that it isn't Doctor Who anymore, because 55 years of show history stands to prove you wrong. The show regenerates from time to time, takes on different styles and different tones along the way, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse...but it is always Doctor Who.

Also, why the sudden disdainful 'Quantum Leap' digs at historical episodes, as if they are something new and somehow out of place and derivative? Moffat and Davies both did historical episodes, too. Every era has. Because it is a show about time travel. Trips to the past and the moral and ethical questions this throws up are nothing new, but rather are something the show has always done, since 1963 and counting.

[Ailianna]

When Yaz said she wanted to do whatever she could to help her gran, there was a look between Ryan and Graham before they agreed, and I could almost hear them thinking of Ryan's Gran--whom I still miss.

[libgirl2]

19 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

 

I would guess it was because she never personally met her great-grandmother and so didn't feel as strongly emotionally attached. I also wonder if Grandmother spoke much of her, since great-gran was pretty against the wedding/marriage, perhaps Nani didn't like talking about her so Yaz didn't feel she knew her. That's all I could think of. I imagine I'd be more into seeing my grandmother, who I knew only as an older woman, as a young woman just starting her life than I would my great grandmother who is really just an old photograph and a name to me. 

that is what I was thinking. If someone said I could meet a grandparent I never met while I have a close relationship with another, I might do the same too. 

[AnimeMania]

Here what I seemed to notice:

My view of The Doctor is he is like Sherlock Holmes, a little smarter than the average alien. He uses his brain to figure out what is happening and then stay one or two steps ahead of the bad guy's plan.

Jodie's Doctor has to have the bad guy's plot Aliensplained to her before she catches on and doesn't seem to come up with clever plots to save the day. (This is how I think she diverges from the other iterations of The Doctor).

Jodie's Doctor seems to hate violence of any kind and goes out of her way to make sure they don't do any. Ryan's Gran paid a heavy price for her act of vengeance.

Chibnall's agenda seems to showing us that racial, political, social, religious, etc. hatred is something that should be avoided.

The Alien's haven't really been that evil, even tooth guy was only doing what he did because that was what his people have always done. Therefore the aliens don't really have to be defeated.

These episodes are more like The Doctor as a traveler stories, than The Doctor as a warrior stories that have happened in the past seasons. I am sure that when The Doctor and companions go to different planets 99% of the time nothing bad happens. It seems we are getting stories with a mixture of threat levels, not every story is cranked up to 11. If this is the case, I hope they do an alien planet with stunning visuals at some point.

[Dobian]

I think part of the issue people are having this season is that in past seasons the Doctor had a single companion who he brought into his world, and introduced them to the larger universe.  This season the focus has been on the Doctor being in the companions' world.  Even when they are in space, the companions don't act with the same sense of awe and wonder as past companions did.  It's more like a drive into the countryside, then they are back on Earth again the next episode.

[Chaos Theory]

And I have been watching NuWho in a weird way....I saw Martha Jones BEFORE Rose Tlyer so I was expecting the most beautiful girl in the world....and how   My favorite Doctor is still Eleven but I think Thirteen is lots of fun and I disagree completely utterly and totally that Doctor Who has changed AT ALL Evdn a little.  This is the same exact show I have been watching from day one.  Not a thing has changed. 

Not really.

[futurechemist]

I find it interesting that in the 2 historical episodes so far this season, the real villains are humans.  In this episode, the aliens were just observers, and in Rosa, the time traveler was setting this into motion so that people would continue doing bad things.  In the 9-12 eras, it seemed like there were more direct alien villains (e.g. Pyroviles in Pompei, witches with Shakespeare, robots with Robin Hood.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

More episodes dealing with politics on Earth, it was almost like an episode from Timeless.  BBCAmerica played a DW episode called Army of Ghosts this last weekend.  Once again, the writing back then blows away this season's writing.  I felt naturally connected to the families of the  companions from the past Doctors.  Loved Rose's family, Donna Noble's family, even Amy's and Rory's.  This time around I'm just not feeling it, sorry... 

[LiveenLetLive]

Damn I haven't cried so much over a Who episode since Tennant's tenure which had plenty of five hankie story lines, As a lover of History I have a rough idea of the horror that happened at the time of the Partition, the cinematography and the score were so, so beautiful, as was the actor who played Prem, yeah I am being shallow but what a dish. Loved this episode, loved the subtle nod to the current political divide---LOVE.

[Kelda Feegle]

Has there been a Jodie catchphrase introduced yet? Like Geronimo or Allons-y? I'd be just as happy if there never was one.

I covet her coat.

[Pattycake2]

This has been my favorite episode so far.  It seems like every show has been very heavily handed centered about some moral lesson.  Guns are bad, respect the environment, racial discrimination, be there for your children, religious intolerance, etc.  Maybe it’s an effort to influence the little ones, but I’ve found it a bit tedious.  I liked this one because of the scenery, the characters were interesting, and the demon twist was unexpected.  

 

Question - how do you become a policeman at age 19?  Don’t you have to go to school in the UK to join the force?

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Pattycake2 said:

Question - how do you become a policeman at age 19?  Don’t you have to go to school in the UK to join the force?

Kids leave school at 18 (some at 16). And no, you don't have to have a university degree to join the police. Those who do get a fast-tracked career, but those without join as police constables (any age over 18 is eligible) and are then trained on the job - which is what Yaz was doing when we met her. She's a 2nd year probationary police constable, which means she joined the force straight from school at 18 and is still training.

[cardigirl]

8 hours ago, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

More episodes dealing with politics on Earth, it was almost like an episode from Timeless.  BBCAmerica played a DW episode called Army of Ghosts this last weekend.  Once again, the writing back then blows away this season's writing.  I felt naturally connected to the families of the  companions from the past Doctors.  Loved Rose's family, Donna Noble's family, even Amy's and Rory's.  This time around I'm just not feeling it, sorry... 

I've yet to see anything this series that moves me as much as The Doctor's Wife or Amy's Choice or The Day of the Doctor or even The Caretaker. Not sure why.  All the elements are there. Good characters, interesting set ups.  Just missing that oomph that makes it Whoovian.  (I left out Blink, but that is a classic episode, not to be missed, or dissed.) I'm not giving up on the show, by any means, just finding it a hard slog sometimes.  

[LiveenLetLive]

I had actually skipped most of the Capaldi era, I hated PC in the role and that whole business when he took over at trying to transition from that special not quite love connection between the Doctor and Clara was ham handed IMO---blech! I am loving Jodi, and the 3 companion set up makes a family which I like very much indeed.

[ZoqFotPik]

On 11/11/2018 at 1:09 PM, Llywela said:

Either way, the conversation did not so much as hint at Umbreen recognising in her granddaughter the mysterious stranger who showed up at her wedding...and yet she chose to give Yaz that watch for a reason.

 

On 11/11/2018 at 1:54 PM, Triskan said:

And I really wish we had a scene where the Tardis team explains who they are to Umbreen and asking her to keep it secret all these years, and then, at the end, we could have had a powerful scene where Yaz and her nanny finally share a strong moment... but it wasnt, and now we have to assume Umbreen just didnt recognize the similarity between her granddaughter and the strange woman at her wedding...

I thought they were going to do this too, but I'm glad they didn't. I think it was more realistic that Umbreen would not recognize her granddaughter as someone she met for a few days 70+ years ago. Memories are very fickle. It's one of the reasons why eye witness testimony is considered unreliable.

 

18 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Jodie's Doctor seems to hate violence of any kind and goes out of her way to make sure they don't do any.

Except when she's not. She got mad at Ryan and NotTrump for using guns, but Prem spends most of the episode carrying a rifle, even taking a shot at the aliens, and she doesn't bat an eye. I hope they get more consistent about this.

[Bruinsfan]

For my part I'm liking everything except some ham-handedness with the moral/message of Chibnall's episodes, and the abundant nonsense in general of that spider one. This episode and the pilot both suited my tastes extremely well. While I wouldn't call them classics exactly, it took most of two seasons of the Capaldi era for episodes I liked as much as those two to occur.

[Llywela]

4 minutes ago, ZoqFotPik said:

I thought they were going to do this too, but I'm glad they didn't. I think it was more realistic that Umbreen would not recognize her granddaughter as someone she met for a few days 70+ years ago. Memories are very fickle. It's one of the reasons why eye witness testimony is considered unreliable.

Yeah, I agree that it's realistic that she wouldn't recognise the granddaughter she first met as a baby as the same woman as the 'distant relative' she met for one day 70 years ago - and even if she did notice the resemblance, time travel is impossible, so far as she knows, so the merely improbable idea of her granddaughter growing up to look like that distant relative would seem more reasonable. All the same, though, I suspect the connection has pinged her subconscious and that's why she gave the watch to Yaz, even if she doesn't actually realise it.

[Dobian]

30 minutes ago, ZoqFotPik said:

Except when she's not. She got mad at Ryan and NotTrump for using guns, but Prem spends most of the episode carrying a rifle, even taking a shot at the aliens, and she doesn't bat an eye. I hope they get more consistent about this.

I noticed that too, but excused it with the reasoning that NotTrump was a cowardly chump doing the "shoot first ask questions later" thing, while Prem was behaving in a completely normal and reasonable way for someone in a war-torn region whose land was under siege.  Trying to engage him in a debate about shooting at "demons" wouldn't have been a very productive use of her time.

[cardigirl]

44 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Yeah, I agree that it's realistic that she wouldn't recognise the granddaughter she first met as a baby as the same woman as the 'distant relative' she met for one day 70 years ago - and even if she did notice the resemblance, time travel is impossible, so far as she knows, so the merely improbable idea of her granddaughter growing up to look like that distant relative would seem more reasonable. All the same, though, I suspect the connection has pinged her subconscious and that's why she gave the watch to Yaz, even if she doesn't actually realise it.

I thought that maybe, somewhere deep down inside, she does recognize Yaz, and that was why Yaz was her 'favorite.'  

[tennisgurl]

You know, I just dont know what it means when people say that something "isnt Doctor Who", especially this season. Doctor Who has been all kinds of things, from wacky sitcoms to heartbreaking tragedy, with episodes taking place in modern London to far off planets. It has had romance episodes, and its had horror, and everything from hard science fiction to borderline fantasy. And, since when do historical episodes not exist in Who? Wasn't a part of the shows original purpose to teach kids about science and history by going to space and historical events? I am just imagining all those episodes where the Doctor and company went to various historical events, met historical figures, and got involved in stuff? There hasn't been anything that has happened this season that would feel out of place in earlier seasons, I dont think. I can get not liking this season, but I dont get the idea that this somehow isnt Who. 

I loved the episode, I thought the acting was great, it was shot beautifully, and the music was really haunting and well used. Yaz meeting her grandmother and seeing what she went through was really well done, and I still think Graham is my favorite companion, he steals every scene he is in. The actor just exodus this warmth about him, and he has instant chemistry with every person he meets. I know Ryan thinks he is kind of annoying, but I want him as my grandpa damn it!

I also like that this season has gone to some interesting places and time periods where we havnt been before. Something that has always bothered me is when Who just hangs around modern day London or Wales, or goes back to Victorian London or one of the other time periods we have seen about a billion times, so its nice that they are going to new places and time periods, and the show might inspire people to learn more about stuff they might not know as much about, like the segregation in the deep south, and Partition in India in the late 40s. 

Poor Prem, I felt so awful for him, and for Umbreen. He managed to survive the war, only to be killed during violence at home, by his own brother and former comrades in arms. I also thought the "demons" not being evil was a good touch, and the Doctor being truly sorrowful when she heard about their planets destruction, despite their reputation for murder. I also thought that the Doctor mentioned that she didnt get to do "traditional" female things when she was a man was actually an interesting beat. As a woman in the past, she would get to do some different things, and interact with more women, than she probably would as a man in many places. I also thought her doing the wedding was really sweet. I love how the Doctor is pretty much just down with whatever. 

As much as I liked this episode, I am excited to get back to space soon!

[AnimeMania]

2 hours ago, ZoqFotPik said:

21 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Jodie's Doctor seems to hate violence of any kind and goes out of her way to make sure they don't do any.

Except when she's not. She got mad at Ryan and NotTrump for using guns, but Prem spends most of the episode carrying a rifle, even taking a shot at the aliens, and she doesn't bat an eye. I hope they get more consistent about this.

I can't see a scenario where she could have stopped Prem.

Doctor: I am coming to tell you that we found your friend dead in the woods.

Prem: How did he die?

Doctor: I don't know. We are going to bring back the body.

Prem; I am coming with you. (grabs gun) Whatever killed him might be still out there!

Doctor: You don't need a gun, I hate violence. Brains beat guns everytime.

Prem: You want me to go alone and unarmed into the woods with you and your friends to find a dead body? How do I know you didn't kill him. Is that what your planning are for me?

[Dobian]

30 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, I just dont know what it means when people say that something "isnt Doctor Who", especially this season. Doctor Who has been all kinds of things, from wacky sitcoms to heartbreaking tragedy, with episodes taking place in modern London to far off planets. It has had romance episodes, and its had horror, and everything from hard science fiction to borderline fantasy. And, since when do historical episodes not exist in Who? Wasn't a part of the shows original purpose to teach kids about science and history by going to space and historical events? I am just imagining all those episodes where the Doctor and company went to various historical events, met historical figures, and got involved in stuff? There hasn't been anything that has happened this season that would feel out of place in earlier seasons, I dont think. I can get not liking this season, but I dont get the idea that this somehow isnt Who. 

I really don't judge the show on the first part of the first season of a new Doctor.  People sing praises about David Tennant but his first couple of episodes as the Doctor were clunky at best.  Same thing with Matt Smith.  Peter Capaldi was completely awkward in the role until they figured out how to write for him instead of giving him Tennant/Smith kinds of scripts to act.  I expect them to find their footing with Whittaker by the end of the season.  The stories themselves seem to touch on the usual Doctor Who themes, just that there has been an over-emphasis on Earth in my opinion.  But I expect it to balance out over time.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Dobian

[cardigirl]

14 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I really don't judge the show on the first part of the first season of a new Doctor.  People sing praises about David Tennant but his first couple of episodes as the Doctor were clunky at best.  Same thing with Matt Smith.  Peter Capaldi was completely awkward in the role until they figured out how to write for him instead of giving him Tennant/Smith kinds of scripts to act.  I expect them to find their footing with Whittaker by the end of the season.  The stories themselves seem to touch on the usual Doctor Who themes, just that there has been an over-emphasis on Earth in my opinion.  But I expect it to balance out over time.

1

Bold emphasis is mine, but I think The Eleventh Hour was one of the best intros ever.  LOL. So I disagree with ya there. 

[isalicat]

Okay, so I am old, but chiming in here to say that I have watched every episode of Dr. Who since the very beginning (actually started watching in the Tom Baker era and then went back and watched every available episode from the first Dr. Who) and I am not especially happy with this season so far. I really like Jodie as the Doctor but the stories have been extraordinarily ham-fisted and didactic. Yes, Dr. Who has always had episodes that were set in "real historical times" and points-of-view to be communicated but this year is just preaching in a really obvious way to the choir, as it were, and I'm almost embarrassed to watch stuff like the latest episode (the Rosa Parks one was cringe worthy in my estimation). I realize that the demographics for Dr. Who's audience should always take into account that the program was initially aimed at children, but making all these episodes like an Afterschool Special is just sad. And I miss the multi-part stories from previous eras that took the time to pull together both the Doctor's history and whatever the current peril might be, or carefully and slowly revealed the true extent of the peril rather than just executing a skeleton story outline to get to the (really obvious) point as quickly as possible. Any of you that have access to previous seasons, go watch "The Key to Time" with Tom Baker as the Doctor and Romana and you will see what I mean.

[hnygrl]

23 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Bold emphasis is mine, but I think The Eleventh Hour was one of the best intros ever.  LOL. So I disagree with ya there. 

AGREED!!!!!! Eleventh Hour is the episode that made me a Whovian. Literally. That "basically, run" And they RAN? Hooked me.

[companionenvy]

This was by far my favorite episode of this series, though it doesn't, IMO, quite rise to the level of the best Who episodes. Prem's death was affecting, but it was slightly undermined by the fact that he was so obviously doomed from the moment we found out he was Umbreen's fiancée but not Yaz's grandfather, to the point where I was waiting for some kind of twist that never came. I also thought the end was a little lacking; not only could they have done more with Yaz and her grandmother, I was hoping that Team TARDIS - or at least Yaz and the Doctor -- rather than the demons were going to wind up being the witnesses to Prem's death. All the same, I found the episode effective, the highlight being the scene in which the Doctor performs the wedding and makes her speech knowing that Prem is about to die. Graham's interactions with him at the "stag party" were also great. I think this was a first time DW writer, and based on this, I hope he gets other chances. 

As far as the bigger picture issue, I agree that this season hasn't been my cup of tea so far, but not because it is fundamentally un-DW like. Frankly, I've just found a lot of it on the dull side - which was often the case with Chibnall episodes in previous seasons as well. His episodes are largely adequate, but he's, IMO, weaker on characterization than Moffat or RTD, and as I'm someone who needs to be invested in the emotional arcs to really care about the plot, that's an issue for me. I love Jodie and think she absolutely feels like the Doctor, but for me, having three companions isn't leaving enough room to develop any of them or their relationships with the Doctor. 

[AudienceofOne]

This was a truly fantastic episode. 

I said it last week and it's true here as well - Chris Chibnall understands this show far better than Moffatt, maybe even better than RTD. I feel like he's found the true core of Doctor Who finally. None of this self-aggrandising fate-of-the-world nonsense. This is one of the best episodes of NewWho. And it was hands down better than 90% of Moffatt's nonsense. I was so skeptical about Chib being the showrunner and am so glad to be proved wrong.

[AudienceofOne]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

His episodes are largely adequate, but he's, IMO, weaker on characterization than Moffat or RTD, and as I'm someone who needs to be invested in the emotional arcs to really care about the plot, that's an issue for me. I love Jodie and think she absolutely feels like the Doctor, but for me, having three companions isn't leaving enough room to develop any of them or their relationships with the Doctor. 

I agree actually. I think Chib is a solid all-rounder rather than a genius writer. And three companions is a lot to deal with especially when the episodes are short and there's no two-parters. 

I do disagree about Moffatt and characterisation - I thought Moffatt was frigging terrible at characterisation. All his characters were just whiteboard outlines that never got past the planning phase. They could all be summed up in a few words - like he'd written them on a whiteboard and never got further than that. And he never spent any time developing them really. Amy was probably the only one that got any character development and that took him, like, three years.

RTD though is some kind of genius at it. In fact, he often gets called into shows in the development phase just to help develop their core characters because he's so exceptionally good at it. That's why Merlin had such amazing characters but couldn't maintain it over the seasons - because it was RTD who developed them but then the writers they had couldn't do what he did long-term.

So Chib will never be as good as RTD at characterisation because nobody is. 

[Mabinogia]

4 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

I do disagree about Moffatt and characterisation - I thought Moffatt was frigging terrible at characterisation. All his characters were just whiteboard outlines that never got past the planning phase. They could all be summed up in a few words - like he'd written them on a whiteboard and never got further than that. And he never spent any time developing them really. Amy was probably the only one that got any character development and that took him, like, three years.

Moffatt goes for buzz word characterization. His characters seem more like avatars of a "type" than they do real people. I think our current crew feel more real and have more than one defining characteristic which might make them seem less developed because you can't just call them by their buzz word. You have to actually get to know them.

Personally I love all three of them. Graham has this amazing warmth to him and is a very hard working, blue collar guy who took pride in being a bus driver. And I love how he won't give up on Ryan even though the person who was their only connection is gone. I'm adoring Yaz's girl crush on the Doctor. She is just so enamored of her, like she's finally find her role model, the woman she wants to be. She also seems so proud to be the Doctors friend. Ryan isn't quite as developed as the other two, but I think that's because he's more shy, or reserved, which makes sense. It sounds like he didn't have a great family life, though Grace was wonderful, she was his gran, not his mom or dad. He is insecure about his disability and it makes him a little less "let's run into danger" than Yaz. I like the relationship that is slowly growing between all three of the companions as well. 

I do agree, thought that RTD was the king of characterization on this show. Chibnall isn't as good at it as him, but better than Moffatt but he's not as good as Moffatt at making everything extra extra. 

[companionenvy]

IMO, Moffat could do characterization, he just tended to bury it under too many layers of shiny plot pyrotechnics for his own good. I actually think Clara was well-written after her first season, were she was bogged down by the Impossible Girl nonsense; she wasn't always the most attractive character, personality-wise, but she was often an interesting one. You see some of the same trends on Sherlock, where the character dynamics were great until he started introducing byzantine contrivances. Of course, there were also times that Moffat's ambition did pay off, or at least failed in interesting ways. I just don't get that with Chibnall.

[Chaos Theory]

20 hours ago, Pattycake2 said:

Question - how do you become a policeman at age 19?  Don’t you have to go to school in the UK to join the force?

She’s a rookie.  The same with The UsS.    She would be fresh out of the academy and doing basic grunt work.   18-19 you are old enough to join the army and the police force.  It’s not like Yaz is a detective or and Inspecpector.  

Edited November 14, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[AudienceofOne]

See, Sherlock is one vehicle where I'm like "yeah, that's classic Moffatt". His characterisation is one-dimensional. His plotting is poor. He relies entirely on amazing actors to sell depth that's not on the page. And his "payoffs" are often cheap and gimmicky. Just like RTD was amazing at characterisation but relied almost entirely on deus ex machina to resolve things. To the point where all his seasons basically ended in entirely the same way (he even recycled one of his Doctor Who endings for an episode of Wizards vs Aliens and it's still one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen - guy has one trick, seriously). Still, I'd take that over Moffat for whom the Doctor was his own deus ex machina and every story entirely relied on him being sidelined for some reason and then coming back in to go "Haha! I'm here! It's resolved! None of this was important anyway! Did you think there were stakes here? Everybody lives! Timey-wimey!"

But I'm sure the mods are going to step in and direct us to a better thread for this so I'll just say this: 

For me, this episode encapsulated everything I originally loved about the heart of Doctor Who. The Doctor is an amazing being but is still forced merely to observe the horrors of history rather than fix them. She can puddle around the margins and ensure things go "as they should" but ultimately a Timelord observes - even if that means you have to observe the worst of humanity on the way through. I love the fact that Chibnall has spent two episodes this season highlighting small, very human parts of history that have big implications.

The impact of partition on one woman who within her encompasses the tragedy of the entire Indian/Pakistini split. It kind of reminds me of a smaller, more concise version of Arundhati Roy's The Ministry of Utmost Happiness where the Indian/Pakistani situation was made analogous to an hermaphrodite caught up in Hindu/Muslim violence. 

History does ignore the deaths it wants to ignore - the inconvenient ones, the brown ones, the complicated ones. Millions died straight after a war in which we told ourselves we would not let it happen again so we simply pretend they didn't, just like we pretend with so many other horrific atrocities post 1945. If people think highlighting that is uncomfortable, they may want to ask themselves some hard questions - in the same way the people who "just don't like this season but can't put their finger on why" should.

It's not perfect - I find Chib a bit confused on the violence/guns issue myself as I have previously - but episodes like this are far better than the sum of their parts.

[Mabinogia]

2 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

It's not perfect - I find Chib a bit confused on the violence/guns issue myself as I have previously - but episodes like this are far better than the sum of their parts.

I think this is where I'm at. Sure, if I want to I could pick this season to shreds, but so far it has delighted and entertained me, which this show hasn't consistently done in a long time. So I'm just gonna ride the wave and not care about gun control or whatever other political stuff they are pushing. (Honestly, other than the gun thing I really haven't noticed much agenda so I'll just take people's word that it's there. I tend not to get hung up on or even notice stuff like that. I'm much happier that way.)

I just enjoyed watching the tragic love story of Umbreen and Pram unfold, and the Doctor being wrong about the intentions of the aliens, because it's nice when the aliens aren't always the bad guys. 

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Bold emphasis is mine, but I think The Eleventh Hour was one of the best intros ever.  LOL. So I disagree with ya there. 

I was 100% all in  for Rose and Tennant from day 1,  same with Matt Smith's Doctor and Amy Pond. That was magic.  It didn't take long for me to fall for Clara and Matt's Doctor.  After that, I just didn't feel the same spark with Capaldi's Doctor and Clara.  For some reason I was ok with Bill and Capaldi's Doctor.

[basil]

Quote

Bold emphasis is mine, but I think The Eleventh Hour was one of the best intros ever.  LOL. So I disagree with ya there

. 

Quote

AGREED!!!!!! Eleventh Hour is the episode that made me a Whovian. Literally. That "basically, run" And they RAN? Hooked me.

Oh, hell yes. Eleven casually trying on and discarding clothes as he spoke to the aliens, and then, when he got the look he wanted, delivering that line? Sold.

[benteen]

Moffat had great ideas but they never really panned out in the long run.  He definitely couldn't write female characters (though I liked Bill a lot).  I'm sorry that PC never got a chance to work with a better showrunner. 

Now, is Chibnall a great writer/showrunner?  That remains to be seen.  I thought the acting of a stellar cast (DT and Jodie included) raised Broadchurch above a pedestrian story with stupid plot developments.  I think Chibnall writers characters good.  Not very memorable in regards to villains.

[libgirl2]

15 hours ago, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

I was 100% all in  for Rose and Tennant from day 1,  same with Matt Smith's Doctor and Amy Pond. That was magic.  It didn't take long for me to fall for Clara and Matt's Doctor.  After that, I just didn't feel the same spark with Capaldi's Doctor and Clara.  For some reason I was ok with Bill and Capaldi's Doctor.

I think Clara was made to be more important at times than the Doctor. I liked PC with Bill.... it felt more of a return to the classic companion/mentor or teacher role. I think Bill brought out a better Doctor than Clara did. 

20 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Bold emphasis is mine, but I think The Eleventh Hour was one of the best intros ever.  LOL. So I disagree with ya there. 

It was rather fun. 

[piperkat]

What's interesting to me about both the history stories this season is that both occurred within living memory. Yaz's grandmother was "the first woman married in Pakistan" and she's still alive to tell the tale. (Probably about 90 years old, but alive). The "Rosa" storyline also feels like eons ago, but really, both Grace and Graham could have easily been alive when it happened, even if they weren't really old enough to remember it. 

Just kind of a reminder that "history" happened to real people, and some of it wasn't really all that long ago. 

[DanaK]

I thought Mandip as Yaz did a really nice job here, with Yaz first being against Prem and then wanting him to live even if it meant endangering her own timeline and being absolutely gutted at the gunshot. It was interesting that Yaz, who appreciated her grandmother from the start, didn't push her for more information about her past after learning what happened. I do suspect the older Umbreen had some inkling her granddaughter had some kind of connection to the stranger who visited on her wedding day

[angora]

I loved it.  I like how it took a big historical event and boiled it down to one farm and two families.  The Doctor discovering what the aliens' mission really was and immediately showing them compassion and understanding was lovely.  Yaz was great trying to just take in the enormity of what she was witnessing, trying to understand her own family history, and I appreciated how both Graham and Ryan stepped up to be utterly kind to Prem on his "stag night" without giving away what they knew.  I also loved the Doctor's line about how it was so important not to interfere because they couldn't have "a universe with no Yaz" - aw.

Am I right in thinking that this was the first Earth-based adventure that wasn't set in Europe or the U.S. since "The Crusade"?  Has it really been that long?

[DavidJSnyder]

1 hour ago, angora said:

 

Am I right in thinking that this was the first Earth-based adventure that wasn't set in Europe or the U.S. since "The Crusade"?  Has it really been that long?

For almost an entire story (except for Yaz's apartment/TARDIS bits), maybe?  Planet of Fire is partly on one of the Canary Islands but mostly not Earth based and The Enemy of the World starts in Australia but they end up in Hungary.

Edited November 15, 2018 by DavidJSnyder

[taanja]

On 11/12/2018 at 3:22 PM, cardigirl said:

Moffat didn't ruin the franchise.  Many, many people loved what he did with it, I know you (specifically you, because I've read many of your comments about Clara) did not enjoy his vision of Who-dom, but I did, and this version that Chibnall is giving us does not feel like Doctor Who, to me.  Different strokes.  I did say that I've not watched the earlier versions of Doctor Who, only new Who, but even this version of Who seems sadly disconnected from the previous. 

It's not that it's bad storytelling, it isn't.  I like the stories, and I like the characters.  It's just not Doctor Who. 

I enjoyed Moffat's vision as well. I am trying to get into this new Doctor and the sidekicks (companions) but I am still feeling a disconnect. I must admit-- I was originally against turning the Doctor into a woman and I have nothing against the actress-- it's just....something is being lost in translation. ???? It's like not only did the Doctor turn into a woman - the Doctor turned into a completely different person with no memories/or feelings of the past.

[gonzosgirrl]

I am digging JW as the Doctor. I have not seen any classic Who beyond what has been included in New Who and in the film about William Hartnell w/David Bradley. That said, I find shades of all the modern Doctors in Jodie's performances. I do hope they do more off-Earth episodes though. I thought this one was sad, but poignant and I thought JW really nailed her stern-but-regretful admonitions to Yaz that she couldn't change her family's fate. The actor playing the younger brother did a good job - in that he made me hate him and I was hoping that Prem would take him out with him. I'm loving Graham and honestly, I'd be okay with it if he were the only companion. I wonder if there will be times when all three are not in every episode?

Edited November 15, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
Jodie not Jody

[HouseofBeck]

Very heart-wrenching episode and good pacing. 

I know this was Yaz-centric, yet I'm still feeling that the quality of writing for all three companions per show falls a little flat, enough to be noticeable. Ryan's part, for example. Graham did much better, and now I don't know if it's the actors or the script or both. And I quite liked Ryan in the first ep. 

JW continues to excel as the Doctor, and I say this even as I also don't feel that this is tied overmuch to "Doctor Who." Perhaps it doesn't need to be; the immediate focus is on the story, the antagonists, the fixing of the things, and almost as a sidebar, this quirky, sometimes-remote, sometimes-incredibly-in-your-face alien who looks human enough for even that not to matter.

I can only come at with the perspective of coming up through Classic Who and then being so glad that RTD got it so right when they brought it back. So for me, the entire legacy is built-in and I don't need it shoved in my face every episode. I'm enjoying the hell out of this and that's part of why I want the ensemble writing to be stronger. 

But if this is your first Doctor, do you feel that too much is unexplained? 

Edited November 15, 2018 by HouseofBeck