S05.E04: News Flash

[RedVitC]

To quote another time travel story: That was heavy

I'm on the fence whether I actually like what they're doing with the Iris and Nora of it all, but I like what it could be. Their relationship already feels wonderfully layered. I don't blame either of them. Nora being angry is perfectly understandable, though her taking it out on 2018 Iris is a no no even though I also get how confusing it would be for Nora. Still we're talking 30 years in the future, Iris would be 60 so seeing her so young should make it easier to distinguish the two. Without all the information it's hard to say who is right, but the way the episode tackled it, they made it pretty clear that we will find out that future Iris indeed had a good reason. I wish we didn't have to wait an extra week for the next episode

-Iris + her bad cooking ?

-Lots of nice Westallen. They really, really work well together. Cute marrieds. That scene in the end where Barry stood by Iris, very very nice

-Still loving the family dynamics

-I like Sherloque 

-Is Carlos doing some other project for which he needed time off?

-Where are we in time? It's been 4 episodes so the end of June? How can Cicada already have

 

55 minutes ago, ursula said:

Honestly, the show has never done Iris any favours by making her the Perfect Flawless Girlfriend Daughter Wife Who Does No Wrong. And @phoenics people who hate Iris are always going to hate Iris. We all know why they hate her. It's not because they needed a reason to hate her. What I think is more important is that her character is given a meaty storyline where she has agency. Yes, the writers have not been great at handling Iris in the past and I'm not being dismissive about your suspicions about their agenda. But I think this is still a far better story than one where Iris is just a Sweet, Supportive Mother-shaped Wallpaper in the background of Barry/Nora's inter-generational speedster antics. 

Pretty much 

[adora721]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

And Danielle Panabaker put up a tweet asking everyone what they thought of Iris doing that (literally TROLLING for Iris hate) - I was so glad to see most people taking Iris' side.  Much to DP's chagrin I'm sure.

Can't say I'm surprised; it must be one of the few times she mentions Iris only to cast a net of hatred.  Shame...

9 minutes ago, ursula said:

There's a saying for this, I think: "My mother is always in 2 places: on my nerves and in my heart."

I always liked, "If it's not one thing, it's your mother."

[TwistedandBored]

I liked this episode. I always thought Iris and Nora's relationship will be the best one emotionally. The build is gonna be hard but I can't wait to see the payoff and I hope there is payoff after having to deal with Nora's behaviour toward her mother for the past couple weeks. 

I was also right in saying this show writers for Nora like she is a teenager and not a full grown smart woman in her late 20s. Blaming current Iris for something future Iris might have done is stupid. I can't help but think future Iris and Nora haven't had the talk about the reason behind the power dampening and Nora is taking it out on our Iris. 

I hope the show starts writing for Nora as adult and they continue to build this story. For now, I am just happy Barry was able to support Iris and be there for her emotionally. She needed someone in this corner in this episode. 

[ursula]

10 minutes ago, adora721 said:

3 hours ago, phoenics said:

And Danielle Panabaker put up a tweet asking everyone what they thought of Iris doing that (literally TROLLING for Iris hate) - I was so glad to see most people taking Iris' side.  Much to DP's chagrin I'm sure.

Can't say I'm surprised; it must be one of the few times she mentions Iris only to cast a net of hatred.  Shame...

Gosh, that woman's trash. Sorry, not sorry.

But I went to the tweet and I was delighted by how pro-Iris the replies were. 

And there were some really great theories there from the twisty ones - The power dampener was Barry's idea and Iris took the blame so protect Nora's memory of her father - to the funny/pragmantic ones - imagine the nightmare of chasing around a toddler speedster! 

[SevenStars]

17 minutes ago, ursula said:

 - to the funny/pragmantic ones - imagine the nightmare of chasing around a toddler speedster! 

Someone wrote a great story about that. The difference was that Barry was alive so he could easily catch toddler Nora but despite that it was still a horrible experience cause he couldn't be with her 24/7. So imagine that but with Iris alone,   who has no ability to catch her daughter when she is using that speed, and can't make her understand why it's dangerous for her to use.

My only thing is that I think Iris should have told Nora when Nora was old enough to understand and Iris didn't. Which is why I don't trust Nora's pov of the situation. I don't trust her version of event because someone who wants to put a wedge between Nora and Iris could be the one feeding Nora this version and Nora was to angry to give Iris a chance to tell her the truth. 

[VCRTracking]

My reaction to finally finding out why Nora's mad at Iris was "Huh." I get why Nora's angry but taking out on the younger version of her mom who hasn't done anything yet is unfair. Also like Barry said Iris probably had a good reason. I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt on this. My theory is she didn't want her daughter to become a superhero and end up losing her as she did her husband. Their will probably be some  other where it was important that Nora's power be suppressed.

[sweetandsour]

I know Cisco really only names the metas, but by now, he should have officially ordained Joe as "The Chairman."

I really wish The Flash writers had taken note of the consistent criticisms on their sister show "Supergirl" about Ruby's characterization last year.  No one enjoyed watching a young teenager act like an eight-year-old.  No one enjoys watching a mid-20's young woman act like a petulant 15-year-old.  It's exhausting and not fun and absolutely not the way to go about the storytelling unless the goal is to get people to dislike Nora from the jump.  And if it's the writers' intention to make Nora's newfound maturity later in the season part of her journey - well, honestly, that might be too little, too late for the audience.  Not unlike Ralph's arc last year, and I think a lot of viewers would like Ralph a lot better now if he hadn't been painted so poorly in early s4.

I wonder if some version of Eobard in the future got Nora to run back into the past to mess with the timeline for his own nefarious purposes.  Though I don't know what a villain would gain from that - would have to be something not related to the Flash since a villain would be happy that the Flash disappeared in the existing timeline.

I found it kind of distracting how much Spencer/Spyn resembled Cecile.  And what an idiot Spencer was with her time-stamps.  Yes, very in keeping with the fact that she's never been a real reporter and paid attention to the details, but a real rookie move.

Edited October 31, 2018 by sweetandsour
Norah Jones has programmed me to spell it with an 'h' - I must install a new subroutine in my brain to override

[Trini]

[Haven't read all the comments yet-]

Disappointed they’re still doing that unnecessary opening monologue.

So the format this season is A-plot = West-Allen family + meta shenanigans-of-the-week; and B-plot that I can easily ignore = everyone else ? (Plus the C-plot of one more piece of info about Cicada) Perfect.

I’m glad we got that cute, funny West-Allen family breakfast scene before all the other drama happened. “I'm going to make you a banana!” - *snort* But to be fair to Iris, on at least one point, that defective toaster came from Mick Rory who probably stole a bunch of factory recalls. ;-)  So the burnt toast is not on her.

Did the STAR Labs satellite actually have any dark matter? Anyway, I hope not all the metas-of-the-week are going to be directly related to the satellite crash. It’ll be another season of “bus metas” again, and DO NOT WANT. But I get that they want to follow through with consequences for the big finale event/Nora’s mistake.

So when the writers finally remember that Cisco has a family, it’s the episode where he doesn’t even appear. (This is Carlos’ first absence on the show, BTW.) Let’s see if they ever remember that again. I’m not liking how this season is going for Cisco so far.

LOL! Not that she needs to be sassing her mother all the time, but Nora learned that shadiness from you Iris! Barry supports Iris' terrible cooking, and Iris supports Barry being terrible at sports. A marriage, people!

Again, I’m grateful they are trying to have more scenes outside of STAR Labs. Keep it up!

Joe was standing! But still not walking. I’m glad JLM’s foot (or whatever) is getting better.

Nice mother/daughter moment with Iris teaching Nora how to extinguish the fire! Iris' one episode as a speedster still paying off, yes!

Spyn/Spencer Young: So not a meta, but has … meta tech. (There’s gotta be a better way to say that.) Nice that Iris has a rival. And her interest in Nora AND XS (“extra small” - hee!) adds another layer. But I wonder,

Spoiler

if Spyn is going to be recurring, I’m guessing it won’t as a villain - since she presumably won’t have her meta phone - it’ll be as either a love interest for Nora or a antagonist for Iris. Or both!

If Spencer and Nora are both supposed to be gay, they tried to be as subtle about it as possible — in typical Flash fashion.

The whole thing with Iris and Nora is going to be a separate post ‘cause there’s a lot there.

Supportive Husband Barry! WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN THIS WHOLE TIME?

So is 'reversing time’ - with her going forward and everything else reversing - a specific power for Nora?? When they first showed that in last season’s finale, I thought it was just to illustrate how she changed the timeline, but in this episode it seems like it’s something that she can do at will. Man, I hate when they change the rules of the Speed Force.

I know it’s a mystery they’re unravelling slowly, but I don’t get what’s happening with Cicada?? He’s both getting weaker and stronger at the same time? They’ve shown he be injured, but also very powerful. I hope we get get some solid answers soon, but at least we know he (supposedly) got his powers from the dark matter/satellite crash.

[Jediknight]

Who knew Caitlin was a fan of Early Edition?  Since she's been confirmed as a fan of one Kyle Chandler show, she should break out a "Clear eyes, full hearts" this season.  And somebody better finish it.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Jediknight

[ruby24]

This was a good episode. Spending all that time on the WA family breakfast scene and the baseball game was really good- it was the kind of outside activity stuff that made Season 1 great. I liked that a lot.

I think this Iris/Nora stuff is a good storyline. I'm sure we're going to find out that it was absolutely necessary that Iris do what she did. I bet we will get an episode set in the future too at some point. 

I'm concerned about Jesse L. Martin though- why can't he walk? Something must have happened.

I'm sorry but Tom Cavanagh's "french" accent is horrendous. I really, really want him to be faking it just so that he can drop it at some point and we don't have to listen to it anymore. It's SO bad, it's distracting. Tatiana Maslany he is not.

So this was Carlos' first absence from an episode. I wonder what that was about. Did he request some time off?

[Featherhat]

I get why Nora's angry, it's not a great thing to find out, especially as it directly connects to her missing daddy issues. I get why she's taking it out on our Iris. It's not in the slightest bit fair or rational but she didn't talk it through or get any explanation of it from her mother and seems to have immediately gone back in time. It seems clear Iris will have had good, loving reasons for it, even if they turn out to have bitten her in the ass later on. It was nice to see Barry so 100% supportive. 

Quote

Having Iris blamed for something she hasn't even done (and we can't get futureIris' point of view) but we can't get a apology from Caitlin for teaming up with Savitar to KILL Iris in the here and now.

That's actually a disservice to both the character and actress, although she might not see it like that. They treated the entire Killer Frost arc as a joke about Caitlin's psycho roommate and, not actually giving her much meaty stuff to do despite the storyline practically begging for it and she gets stuck having to beg them not to make the awful Ralph her LI last year. 

As @ursula said, having Iris be this perfect wallflower shaped "prize" for Barry wasn't doing her any favours either not lessening the hate CP gets. At least this way she has a chance to display her acting chops, which are the only reason I like the character despite the writing anyway. 

I actually hope Nora has issues with Barry as well, now that he's actually a real person for her, not just a photo or hero in a museum, that would be realistic. Although I do hope they remember she's supposed to be mid-late 20s not 12. JPK is a good actress though, can't believe she went from her Black Sails character to Nora. 

[ruby24]

I think they want Nora to act young in comparison to Barry and Iris, so they can still get the "parent-child" dynamic. They could have easily had a teenage Nora come back, or have her be like 20 or something. Barry would still be missing, right? 

[thuganomics85]

Well, I'll certainly give the show credit for not dragging stuff out this go around.

So, Nora's dislike of Iris stems from Future Iris apparently repressing her speed powers all of these years ago (or... err, in all the years to come.)  I certainly can understand why Nora is upset by that and the secrets (all the damn secrets.  Does this family ever learn?!), but taking it out on Current Iris is immature and unfair, although I guess I can see why she might not be considering that.  But I suspect in the end that Iris will have good reasons for why she did it.  Hell, I'm in the camp that thinks Barry will somehow be involved, in order for Nora to really realize she was way too harsh on her mom.  That said, I think the main issue is that this is making Nora come off like she's still a teenager even thought she isn't, and making her more bratty then necessary.  Then again, considering how she acts around everyone and her awkwardness over being attracted to Spencer, it kind of seems like Nora's just socially-stunted in general.  I'm curious about what her childhood was like.  She kind of gets off a general vibe (no pun intended) of being sheltered and less world-weary then most.

Barry standing up for Iris was awesome though.  He may be a little bit of a doofus from time to time(line), but he can be a good husband when the time calls for it.  Including sucking it up and woofing down those pancakes, which looking at alone, made my stomach curl.  You are a tougher man then me, Barry!

Sherloque as somehow made me actually side with Ralph.  I guess Tom Cavanagh really can do anything...

Joe/Jesse L. Martin has been upgraded to being able to lean against a door frame for a few seconds.  Yay?  I really do hope it isn't anything too serious, but they would have been better off having Joe get injured by a meta or something, so he would have a good reason to just be sitting around.

Unimpressed with Spencer simply because she had the power to do so much more then what she did.  These villains need to broaden their horizons!

I am intrigued with the whole "meta tech" idea, and non-meta being able to acquire powers now.

[Trini]

Really shouldn't be typing in the a.m., but anyway...

So we're DEFINITELY getting a future-set episode, right? Because right now we only have Nora's POV, and I don't even think she has all the information.

If Nora has had her powers only for six months, that explains why she's so inexperienced, but then it raises a whole set of other questions -- more later.

[ursula]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

But to be fair to Iris, on at least one point, that defective toaster came from Mick Rory who probably stole a bunch of factory recalls

LOL. Good catch!

4 hours ago, Trini said:

I hope not all the metas-of-the-week are going to be directly related to the satellite crash. It’ll be another season of “bus metas” again, and DO NOT WANT. But I get that they want to follow through with consequences for the big finale event/Nora’s mistake.

I don't think that's necessarily a minus. The idea of the bus metas was cool. It was the execution that was iffy. And if anything, I don't think the show is following through hard enough with Nora's mistake. No one is still bringing up her returning back to her timeline. Considering how big a deal Flashpoint was for everyone, it's weird that everyone just sweeps continued presence in the wrong time under the rug.

4 hours ago, Trini said:

Joe was standing! But still not walking. I’m glad JLM’s foot (or whatever) is getting better.

 

He was leaning in the season premiere too so I don't think this is necessarily an improvement though...

 

4 hours ago, Trini said:

This is Carlos’ first absence on the show, BTW

Thank you for confirming that. I don't like it ---- but if that means there's a chance that DP could also take a break, then I'm fine with it. 

[catrice2]

I am shocked that I am still even watching this show. In the first season the only thing that kept me coming back was Wells Iris and Joe. . Barry to a lesser extent. It went all downhill from there. This season is better for me in terms of getting back to the villain of the week instead of every week being the main villain ,however Nora and the new wells have ruined all that Goodwill. I find her to be so exceptionally annoying and it is a very depressing thinking that this whole season is supposed to be about their relationship with their daughter. UGH!

I couldn't even focus on what the girl from the newspaper was doing and what her motivation was. It is also incredible to me that they would not have thought that they need to come up with a backstory to explain the back story to explain Nora's presence. Why on Earth wouldn't I Iris just say this is my cousin or this is a relatives from out of town or something like that?

The only good thing to me about this episode was the lack of Cisco! More of that please. And this was the first episode that I could stomach Ralph.

Well I finally managed to wean myself off  Arrow so there's hope for me yet. It looks like this is the next step but Supergirl may fall off first because here at least I still have Iris, Joe, and Cecile and Barry sometimes but there the only person I can stand is Jonn.

[cdnalor]

8 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I think they want Nora to act young in comparison to Barry and Iris, so they can still get the "parent-child" dynamic. They could have easily had a teenage Nora come back, or have her be like 20 or something. Barry would still be missing, right?

I know the actress playing Nora is in her twenties but did the show ever establish the character's age?  Nora seems to act like a resentful 16 year old.

Also can anyone explain why, during the chase in the stadium, Barry seemed to freeze and then move backwards towards Nora?

[Chick2Chic]

I still like Nora but she really irritated me in this ep. I also side-eye the writing that Iris can't clap back at Nora's shade and attitude towards her. I did like that Barry didn't hesitate to back up Iris about the powers dampening situation. He knows his wife well. Barry knows Iris must have had a compelling reason to do that to Nora.

I'm going to need for Nora to start acting like a woman in her mid 20s and not like a 12 year old. That's very tired. 

I FF'd the Ralph and Sherloque stuff. I just can't, though more due to Sherloque and that inconsistent accent of sorts.

Also, it came across to me that Caitlin was being shoe-horned into those WestAllen family scenes. Like I was perplexed with her being at the softball game... yes, I get she could be there just being a friend but it just seemed off and ingratiating. I also didn't like how Cecile and Caitlin shared a gossipy look over Nora's shade and bad attitude at the game. WTF was that? 

That said, I laughed at Barry's hideous softball skills. They seem legendary from how Iris and the manager responded to him. Hee.

[Starry]

I liked this episode. I was over Nora's coldness towards Iris after the premiere, especially given how absurd it was that none of the characters found her behavior worthy of an exaplanation that wasn't limited to "I can't stand my mom because I lost my dad when I was a kid", like that made any sense. For that reason alone, I welcomed her outburst. It looks like they have a plan for once so I trust that they can deliver.

As someone who has always loathed how the writers seemed to write Iris with her haters in mind, I am glad that she has a pivotal role in a more controversial storyline and that Barry has taken her side. Iris haters only liked her when she was in the background while Barry was faking it with Patty. Or when she's playing sidekick to their favorite characters, and even that isn't a guarantee. I am overjoyed that the writers have stopped pandering to that particular subset of fans. As for Caitlin, the fact that she's never held accountable for the crap she pulls is distasteful but Caitlin is not a character, she's a plot machine cardboard cutout with a "I am a product of white feminism" neon sign hanging above her head. She was decent once upon a time, now I'm glad she has her own thing that doesn't interfere with the main plot and has no meaningful interactions with Barry and his family. I hope it stays that way.

To me the simplest explanation is that Iris ( maybe even Barry? ) was afraid Nora would be Cicada's target. I doubt Iris implanted the chip with no help whatsoever, that's why I wonder if the STAR Labs employees had a hand in it.

I don't care at all about Sherloque but I'm starting to like Ralph. If Jesse L. Martin is injured they could have had Joe twist his ankle or something, so viewers wouldn't wonder why he's never standing or walking.

Spin was interesting. Given the current times, I like the idea of a villain manipulating people through blogs/social media.

I loved the breakfast scene and the softball game. I want more WestAllen ( and family ) moments like those ones. I was surprised that those scenes weren't even that short considering how much time they want to focus on the STAR Labs aspect of it all.

[Lunula]

It's hard for me to get behind any story with Nora since there really is no reason for her to be there - other than to continue completely screwing up the timeline. Did I miss something? I know originally we thought she couldn't go back to her time, but then she said she was lying about that and literally came back just to hang out with Barry. Everyone was initially so freaked out about messing up the timeline and then they hear she could go back whenever she wants, has no reason to be there, but was going to stick around and muck everything up and we should...be okay with that? And I know she's been a little distant with Iris the whole time, but to turn it into cold rage in this episode and throw in this whole, "You took away my powers! Wah!" crap isn't my cup of tea. 

Her still being there has bothered me since she admitted she could go back and then they dump this on us and I've truly begun to actively dislike her. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Lunula

[ottoDbusdriver]

22 minutes ago, Lunula said:

Her still being there has bothered me since she admitted she could go back and then they dump this on us and I've truly begun to actively dislike her. 

 

I'm curious what Nora was doing the rest of the time between working at that wedding reception and bumping into the cast at CC Jitters, helping save Central City from the Star Labs satellite and finally showing up at Joe's door.

Here's the other question -- how long had Spencer been controlling Nora ?  Did it just start this episode ?  How long has Spencer known that Nora was XS ?

Anyone have any idea how long it has been in DCU timeline since the StarLabs satellite was destroyed ?  Because it seems like only a couple of weeks.  Would that be enough time for Spencer to master her meta-iPhone's powers ?  Because I don't think so.

ETA: I'm still trying to figure out how Nora learned to reverse time -- because she has done it twice now.  Once at the satellite destruction in the S4 finale, and once in the stadium.  Even Barry can't do that, and he's had his powers for several years now.

Edited October 31, 2018 by ottoDbusdriver

[MadyGirl1987]

I really enjoyed this. I loved Barry and Iris’ scenes together. When they revealed Iris his Nora’s powers from her I was so worried It would cause drama between them. I am glad Barry took Iris’ side because, like him, I assume she had good reasons. I am also glad we got the reason for Nora’s frostiness towards Iris out of the way. As undeserved as it might be to present Iris, and even if I am sure she had a good reason for what she did, it makes sense Nora would not be too pleased with her mother in any time.

I am wondering if Nora is being played by whoever revealed her powers to her and, as Sherlouc hinted, pointed her towards this time. 

[MadyGirl1987]

Double post please delete.

Edited October 31, 2018 by MadyGirl1987

[shantown]

28 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm curious what Nora was doing the rest of the time between working at that wedding reception and bumping into the cast at CC Jitters, helping save Central City from the Star Labs satellite and finally showing up at Joe's door.

Yeah, where was she living? How was she affording to eat? How did she even get a catering job?

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, cdnalor said:

I know the actress playing Nora is in her twenties but did the show ever establish the character's age?  Nora seems to act like a resentful 16 year old.

Also can anyone explain why, during the chase in the stadium, Barry seemed to freeze and then move backwards towards Nora?

No. Jessica Kennedy Parker is 34, and Nora is supposed to be in her mid-to-late 20s, BUT is acting like a spoiled entitled petulant bratty teenager.

I believe Nora reversed time to pull Barry back to try again to kill him.

[catrice2]

I know everyone thinks that she was perfect to play Nora, but I think she was actually a bad choice.

[ursula]

3 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

How long has Spencer known that Nora was XS ?

She didn't know Nora was XS. 

3 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm curious what Nora was doing the rest of the time between working at that wedding reception and bumping into the cast at CC Jitters, helping save Central City from the Star Labs satellite and finally showing up at Joe's door.

I thought she'd been travelling back and forth in time.

[rmontro]

I'm guessing Iris dampening Nora's powers has something to do with Barry/Flash disappearing.  Barry disappeared, so Iris didn't want something similar happening to Nora when/if she developed super speed.  Not sure when Barry disappeared in Nora's timeline though, it would have had to have been when she was fairly young.  Who am I kidding, she's still young.

[ottoDbusdriver]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

She didn't know Nora was XS. 

So, the question is -- how did Spencer know to put the whammie on Nora via the app when she was in plain clothes (because her eyes turned purple) ?  And then command her to change into her speedster outfit and save the day by grabbing the bomb from Jones ?

[SevenStars]

38 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

So, the question is -- how did Spencer know to put the whammie on Nora via the app when she was in plain clothes (because her eyes turned purple) ?  And then command her to change into her speedster outfit and save the day by grabbing the bomb from Jones ?

She wrote the story about XS and since Nora is XS, she responded. The same way she wrote that the Flash run to Las Vegas and the Flash started it happened. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

1 hour ago, SevenStars said:

She wrote the story about XS and since Nora is XS, she responded. The same way she wrote that the Flash run to Las Vegas and the Flash started it happened. 

Oh, ok , but then that means that Spencer knew that XS' alter ego read her blog.  I guess.  That's a big assumption. 
Spencer said that she didn't even know XS was the name of the female speedster until well after the incident at the ball field -- plus the message was 'new female speedster saves crowd from bomb'.  That's still pretty vague.

How come they never tracked down the message that Jones saw to hypnotize him ? 
They never really determined how Jones was hypnotized.  And Jones never mentioned anything about an app.

Edited November 1, 2018 by ottoDbusdriver

[DearEvette]

I agree that I like the messiness of the Iris/Nora storyline.  The problem is it is a very lopsided execution since Iris is  the only one I feel sympathetic toward.  Even with the chip revelation, it doesn't feel so catastrophic that would merit such cold and awful treatment. 

Nora's reaction doesn't feel like the reaction of someone who has been hurt by someone they've loved all their life.  I don't know if it is the writing, acting or directing, but I don't get any undercurrent of affection from Nora for Iris.  I mean, Nora can't even say 'thank you' to Iris for little things.  She barely looks her in the eye.  She gives everyone else her phone number and freezes Iris out? That  isn't 'I'm mad and hurt at my mom' temporarily,  as this has played out there has been core of spite and meanness underneath there that feels out of bounds.  That is how you treat your evil stepmother, not your loving mother.

By comparison Joe had lied to Iris all her life that her mother was dead.  But Iris didn't treat Joe like shit the way Nora is when she discovered the truth.  She was mad at her dad for awhile but underneath it you could tell she still loved Joe and she was hurt by both of them.

Of course we are gonna find out that Iris did what she did for really good reasons.  Maybe at some point they need to actually read that future article beyond the headline.  Maybe they'll get some clues about what is going on in the future.

I like the idea of metatech.  It has potential.

Edited November 1, 2018 by DearEvette

[SevenStars]

23 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Oh, ok , but then that means that Spencer knew that XS' alter ego read her blog.  I guess.  That's a big assumption. 
Spencer said that she didn't even know XS was the name of the female speedster until well after the incident at the ball field -- plus the message was 'new female speedster saves crowd from bomb'.  That's still pretty vague.

How come they never tracked down the message that Jones saw to hypnotize him ? 
They never really determined how Jones was hypnotized.  And Jones never mentioned anything about an app.

There is only one new female speedster that is know to people and that is XS. While vague, it's kind of specific because there are not many other woman speeders as far as we and they know. Her power wasn't so much her blog/app but anywhere her "story" can be read.

 

They didn't check for Jones message because they didn't know how she was doing it until the stadium fight between Barry and Nora. 

[Wanda]

Just read that Jesse l Martin injured his back during the hiatus and is taking a leave of absence from the show. As a fellow back sufferer I hope he gets the help he needs, as someone who watches the show, his presence had actually become distracting as we all were wondering if he was ill or injured. So having joe absent, as long as there is some explanation, is better.

[tennisgurl]

10 hours ago, Starry said:

I loved the breakfast scene and the softball game. I want more WestAllen ( and family ) moments like those ones. I was surprised that those scenes weren't even that short considering how much time they want to focus on the STAR Labs aspect of it all.

Yeah, those were super cute, especially when Iris was cheering for Barry at the baseball game in her super cute baseball cap! Iris and Barry really are very cute and a super believable couple when they arent stuck in agnsty situation after angsty situation. 

[Trini]

Kelly Wheeler, new Flash writer and one of the writers for this episode, live-Tweeted and shared some behind-the-scenes photos:

 

 

[RobertDeSneero]

Barry disappeared a few years after Nora was born, so I'm going with....Barry was the one who had the chip put in Nora, because being a speedster was killing her.

I can understand why Nora feels the way she does.  She feels that a part of her true self was being suppressed.  Imagine if there was a homosexuality-suppression chip that could turn people into functional heterosexuals and you had one in you, then it was removed, and suddenly you're gay and it just feels right and you think it explains that empty feeling you had where you felt you were missing something.  The resentment you would have is how Nora feels towards Iris.

If you could imagine someone who had that anti-gay chip removed when they are in their mid-twenties and going through a sort of second adolescence with respect to their sexuality, where things feel new and different and they commit all the silly mistakes that many people went through a decade earlier....well, maybe Nora acts childish because she is experiencing some sort of second adolescence as if she didn't really live life the first time through, so now she is, in some ways, learning to be a human being now that she is fully herself.

[Lady Calypso]

5 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Barry disappeared a few years after Nora was born, so I'm going with....Barry was the one who had the chip put in Nora, because being a speedster was killing her.

It depends when Nora was born, though. It could be this, but we don't know what year Nora was born. It could range from 2020-2024. We know Nora traveled thirty years into the past, so roughly 2047. 

Though I do think that Nora could have developed speedster powers as a baby and Barry recommended Iris put the chip in baby Nora. Maybe Barry knew that he'd disappear and told Iris to do it. 

5 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

If you could imagine someone who had that anti-gay chip removed when they are in their mid-twenties and going through a sort of second adolescence with respect to their sexuality, where things feel new and different and they commit all the silly mistakes that many people went through a decade earlier....well, maybe Nora acts childish because she is experiencing some sort of second adolescence as if she didn't really live life the first time through, so now she is, in some ways, learning to be a human being now that she is fully herself.

True, but we know that Nora took off right after finding the truth. She never got to ask her mom why she did what she did, or Future Iris didn't tell her. Either way, Nora's taking it out on the wrong Iris. Nora can be pissed and upset, but even during the revelation scene, Nora didn't seem to comprehend that the woman she was screaming at wasn't the one who chipped her. She's not the one who raised her. Yes, Nora is deflecting onto a different version of Iris, but it did seem like Nora WAS blaming Iris, who hasn't even gotten pregnant yet. So yeah, she's definitely acting childish but there needs to be more balance between Nora's anger toward Iris and sympathizing with Nora herself. There's no in between at the moment because the writing isn't good, so therefore, it's hard to sympathize with Nora because we have to watch her take out ALL of her anger on the wrong person.

[DearEvette]

6 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I can understand why Nora feels the way she does.  She feels that a part of her true self was being suppressed.  Imagine if there was a homosexuality-suppression chip that could turn people into functional heterosexuals and you had one in you, then it was removed, and suddenly you're gay and it just feels right and you think it explains that empty feeling you had where you felt you were missing something.  The resentment you would have is how Nora feels towards Iris.

Not necessarily.  it goes to motive.  If such a thing existed, most parents who would go so far as to suppress something like that are generally doing it from hate or rejection.  Iris doesn't hate meta-ness.  She would not reject that in her child.  I mean, Iris  gave Nora her Purple Speedster jacket, so on some level Iris does want Nora to know she accept Nora's speedster abilities!  So the analogy doesn't work for me.  Even Nora herself admitted Iris was over-protective so we know on some level it had be done as a protective measure.

Also I believe the problem is 100% in the execution.  So far Nora's rejection of Iris feels exactly like that, a rejection of Iris herself, not because of this thing she did, but because of who she is.   And that is where some of the disconnect is coming from for me.

Luckily none of my gay friends  have been rejected, thrown out or been sent to be 'reprogrammed' by their parents so that isn't an experience I have any first hand knowledge of, but I would imagine that most kids even in that situation still have some feelings of love or longing and still want acceptance by that parent.  If that parent opened their arms and accepted them back home, I'd bet they'd be receptive.  Nora, otoh,  doesn't even seem to be open to even trying anything with this version of Iris.  You'd think she'd be staring with hunger at this version of the mother she never knew, who works with metas and is involved in crime-fighting in the city.  But nope she doesn't even get that layer or nuance. 

Edited November 1, 2018 by DearEvette

[Quark]

I love when Iris takes centre stage and this episode was no exception. It also helps that Candice Patton is superb (and ever so beautiful).

I think it's already been said, but it would be interesting if the suppression chip was used because 30 years into the future ARGUS are rounding up all the metahumans and Iris didn't want her daughter taken from her. Legends of Tomorrow have done an episode of this, and it looks like ARGUS could be taking a darker turn on Arrow. I'd like it Nora referenced ARGUS's position in the future regardless of the reason for the suppression chip. It makes the Arrowverse more coherent.

I reckon a crossover event at some point stopping ARGUS from ever stigmatising metahumans could be fun. 

[Rose Red]

I know this is mean but throughout the whole episode I was thinking that if I was Iris I would go on birth control until I'm sure Nora's conception date has passed. 

I don't care what Iris did in the future, she has no right to treat her mother like that

[RobertDeSneero]

9 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

There's no in between at the moment because the writing isn't good, so therefore, it's hard to sympathize with Nora because we have to watch her take out ALL of her anger on the wrong person.

Anger isn't always rational.  If we understand what it is like to be angry, then we should understand how easy it is to lash out at the most  convenient target, even if it doesn't make the most sense.  I find it very easy to sympathize with Nora because I've been on both sides of the equation.  I've been angry enough that I can sympathize with someone whose rage pushes them into supervillainy on a show such as this. Nora's feelings are more mild in comparison.

I approach this from a writing perspective.  I would guess that,  based on show history, the writers didn't have a set reason for why Nora was chipped at the time this episode was filmed.  I could come up with a few reasons.   Maybe her metabolism was killing her as a baby and she needed to have her powers dampened so she could grow.  Maybe her speed caused her to age four years in a week and they stopped her powers so she grow at a normal rate, explaining why she may be emotionally less mature than her age.  If I were in the writers' room, I could pitch at least ten ideas if you gave me a day to think about it.

[BkWurm1]

Got around to watching tonight and now I’m seething over the utter breathtaking arrogance of Barry and Iris and how they spoke to Nora.   It seems completely plausible that Iris had a very good reason for hiding Nora’s powers when she was a child but she loses ANY argument when it comes to not coming clean to Nora once she was no longer a kid.  

  But the way Barry and Iris spoke about this choice and CONTINUED choice that they know nothing about as if there is no possible way that Iris could have been wrong in any part of it or on any level is just mind boggling.   Since when did Iris and Barry assume they were such perfect people in ANY context?  Loving your kid does not mean you can’t make deeply flawed choices.  What in all of their life experience would lead them to assume that nothing about future Iris’s lie was a mistake?   

I thought they were going to go in and defend the initial choice.  I would so be fine with initial good intentions.  But Nora is what, 22?  Maybe there’s an argument for waiting even until she 18 to tell her but the impression I got was the plan was to NEVER reveal that she’d essentially been hobbled her entire life.  No one but Nora gets to decide what she does with her life as an adult no matter how much Iris wants Vito protect Nora.  She doesn’t have that right to take the choice away from her.   And for them to just stand there and act like Nora should accept their claim and trust them trusting themselves to be perfect was just maddening.   

[Kate45]

6 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Anger isn't always rational.  If we understand what it is like to be angry, then we should understand how easy it is to lash out at the most  convenient target, even if it doesn't make the most sense.  I find it very easy to sympathize with Nora because I've been on both sides of the equation.  I've been angry enough that I can sympathize with someone whose rage pushes them into supervillainy on a show such as this. Nora's feelings are more mild in comparison.

I approach this from a writing perspective.  I would guess that,  based on show history, the writers didn't have a set reason for why Nora was chipped at the time this episode was filmed.  I could come up with a few reasons.   Maybe her metabolism was killing her as a baby and she needed to have her powers dampened so she could grow.  Maybe her speed caused her to age four years in a week and they stopped her powers so she grow at a normal rate, explaining why she may be emotionally less mature than her age.  If I were in the writers' room, I could pitch at least ten ideas if you gave me a day to think about it.

I think they already know the reason, but they wanted to leave this story open-ended. Todd said earlier in the season that they have the storylines planned out in a fashion of multiple points and gears. So, I’m thinking that in this part we are hearing about what happened from Nora’s perspective, and in the next part we will hear about it from Iris’ perspective, and then finally the truth about where Nora received her information.

I have hypothesized that Barry was in fact the one to push for the chip for whatever reason. Personally, I think the reason has to due with Nora aging at a faster rate, in a Bart Allen fashion, much like your guess.

I think it’s telling that Nora sounds like she never asked her mom in future why she chipped her. I really want to know who gave Nora so much information. I think she’s being played by someone much like how she was played by Spyn. 

I think concerns about how Iris will be portrayed in this storyline are valid. However, I also think the show has done a great job showing that Iris was right to possibly chip her daughter. Nora lacks the maturity to have these powers it seems even in her mid to late 20s. She’s had them

for 6 months and already she’s destroyed the timeline. How would she have acted at 15 when her mom upset her? Nora needs to get her emotions under control.

I like Nora and I understand her being hurt, but I also don’t care for her actions so far in that she’s so rude to present Iris for the actions of future Iris, she has sabbatoged missions, and she is not being upfront (she’s lying) about several things at this point. 

 

I look forward to more of this layered storyline!

[BkWurm1]

On 10/30/2018 at 9:26 PM, UNOSEZ said:

Good barry this episode.. He was ride or die for his lady.. Nora proved future iris right... If basically right after finding out s had powers she ran to the past and created more metas  and now meta-tech.. Plus at least two murders are under her belt... So smart move by momma iris... 

But Iris’s continued choice to keep Nora in the dark about herself is what led to her making poor choices.  If Iris had not lied to Nora all her life even as she was an adult, she would have been prepared to handle her powers.  Cause and effect are very much tied together here.  Both share the blame for what happens (Nora and Future Iris)

On 10/30/2018 at 9:46 PM, phoenics said:

Last episode, Sherloque asked her point blank who helped her go back in time to this exact spot.  Going back accidentally I could understand - but a brand new speedster with no one to train her being able to go back to EXACTLY the times that she wanted?  No way.

I agree with others - she's hiding something shady.

He was talking about going back in time to help with the Satellite and getting instructions on that exact time and it seems likely she was pointed to that moment but I’m pretty certain she first ran back earlier to get glimpses of her parents life.  So running back accidentally initially still seems plausible and then I assume she ran home and then back and forth.   And one of those times was told about the big event with the Satellite.   So far though have we had any indication that her lending a hand was something she was told to do or was just her being spontaneous about helping?  Wanting to help seems in character so she could have been manipulated to help without ever direct instruction. 

On 10/30/2018 at 11:06 PM, Lantern7 said:

 

Poor Barry has to pretend to be a putz playing softball. Is it possible to overdo not doing something well?

I was confused about this.  From everything they said it seemed that this was not Barry acting but was supposed to be him just not using his powers.  Barry seemed really earnest about wanting to play the more challenging spot but then proved why he was in right field.  I think him faking it to a degree would have made sense but that wasn’t the impression I got.  But faking it to that degree doesn’t IMO make sense.  Why couldn’t Barry plausibly improve at playing softball?   He’d have to suppress suddenly being a star but what would it hurt to not be hopeless?  So I just don’t get what was supposed to be going on with Barry’s athletic abilities... unless he thought he was better without his powers than he really was and was just clueless enough to think he didn’t need his powers to be ok playing the game?  Like I said.  I was confused about that whole section   I don’t get what they were trying to do.  

On 10/31/2018 at 9:22 PM, DearEvette said:

I agree that I like the messiness of the Iris/Nora storyline.  The problem is it is a very lopsided execution since Iris is  the only one I feel sympathetic toward.  Even with the chip revelation, it doesn't feel so catastrophic that would merit such cold and awful treatment. 

Nora's reaction doesn't feel like the reaction of someone who has been hurt by someone they've loved all their life.  I don't know if it is the writing, acting or directing, but I don't get any undercurrent of affection from Nora for Iris.  I mean, Nora can't even say 'thank you' to Iris for little things.  She barely looks her in the eye.  She gives everyone else her phone number and freezes Iris out? That  isn't 'I'm mad and hurt at my mom' temporarily,  as this has played out there has been core of spite and meanness underneath there that feels out of bounds.  That is how you treat your evil stepmother, not your loving mother.

By comparison Joe had lied to Iris all her life that her mother was dead.  But Iris didn't treat Joe like shit the way Nora is when she discovered the truth.  She was mad at her dad for awhile but underneath it you could tell she still loved Joe and she was hurt by both of them.

Of course we are gonna find out that Iris did what she did for really good reasons.  Maybe at some point they need to actually read that future article beyond the headline.  Maybe they'll get some clues about what is going on in the future.

I like the idea of metatech.  It has potential.

 

I’m still very upset that Iris wasn’t allowed to stay mad at her father longer.  They rushed way too fast on her just letting it go.  It didn’t feel realistic. It should have been a HUGE deal. Maybe even season long. She wouldn’t have had to ice him out of her life the whole time but there should have been a loss of trust that needed to be rebuilt.  

  Instead Iris being lied to all her life about her mother being dead turned not even to be about her, but was just how they brought in Wally to the show and then Iris was pushed aside and the storyline became About Joe and Wally not Iris and her mom or even Iris and her Dad.  I hate how little agency they gave her in that situation or how little weight they gave to justified anger and pain.  Wally knew their mom as this wonderful woman and Joe’s lie stole that relationship from Iris, something she could never get back.  She wouldn’t stop loving her dad but how could this big thing between them not affect their relationship?

Nora was IMO being written as someone that hasn’t known how to just be fine with current Iris.  So her solution seemed mostly to avoid dealing with Iris which from Iris’s POV was pretty cutting but from Nora’s was probably her just trying to keep the past and future separate.  I mean is it really realistic to expect someone to be super warm and open to someone that becomes someone you are desperately mad at and hurt by? 

Nora wasn’t overtly mean to Iris until this episode.  I think she had past and Future Iris as separate as possible in her mind but then she moved in and while she wanted to move in, I think that’s when Nora went from distant with Iris to seeing more and more of Future Iris in current Iris and the lines got super blurry and she lashed out.   

I honestly think if Iris had said There must have at least been a good reason initially but there’s clearly room for blame in how it was handled long term, Nora would have accepted that and they all could start talking and listening to each other.  

Instead they had both Barry and Iris get stuck on being totally right all the way to the last moment in Iris’s future decision.   I really don’t get why they’d be so stuck on being completely without fault in the matter especially when Iris at first seemed to get what a terrible betrayal Nora had felt.  

I mean I do understand the real reason no one is talking like normal humans, they have a whole season to get through but I don’t get how Barry’s and Iris justify their hard line stance    They shut Nora out   Declared all her feelings invalid   It’s so lacking in empathy and that is not who Barry or Iris have been portrayed as in the past.

Edited November 2, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

33 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I look forward to more of this layered storyline!

Yeah, it's clear to me that there's more information we don't have yet; because Nora's revelation raises a whole lot of questions - which I'm sure is the point. They want to have this story last a while. And I'm glad for the focus on the West-Allen family.

So,
Answers:

• Nora has been mostly cold toward Iris because of anger about being implanted with a power dampening chip, and
• ... Never being told about it or her powers/being lied to by her mother.
• Nora found out about the chip and her powers from someone other than Iris.
• Nora has only known about her powers for 6 months. -- And I'm assuming that means 6 months from Nora's perspective.

Questions:

• How did Nora find out about her powers/the dampening chip; or from whom?
• Why didn't Future Iris ever tell her?
• Did Nora ever discuss it with Future Iris? Nora assumes it was to control her (plausible), but it seems like she didn't actually get a reason from her.
• Who else was involved, and what were the circumstances? So far, supressing Nora's powers is being presented as solely Future Iris' decision; but I have a hard time believing that she thought up this idea, made the chip, and implanted it all by herself. Which leads to...
• ...What's the status of Team Flash in the future? They all for sure know Barry & Iris had a superpowered child.
• Did she get help to become "the guardian of Central City", and why wasn't she warned about the dangers of time travel?

I suspect we'll find out that the situation wasn't that simple. But right now we only have Nora's perspective.

Plus, we know they never caught Cicada, the metahuman serial killer, so that's at least one possible reason that Nora's powers were suppressed.

-----

As mentioned by a couple others, they really need to state a solid reason as to why they're letting Nora stay in the past (before her conception - pretty dangerous!) to continue to affect the timeline. We know her reasons, but why is everyone else okay with it?

[Trini]

31 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Instead they had both Barry and Iris get stuck on being totally right all the way to the last moment in Iris’s future decision.   I really don’t get why they’d be so stuck on being completely without fault in the matter especially when Iris at first seemed to get what a terrible betrayal Nora had felt.  

I mean I do understand the real reason no one is talking like normal humans, they have a whole season to get through but I don’t get how Barry’s and Iris justify their hard line stance    They shut Nora out   Declared all her feelings invalid   It’s so lacking in empathy and that is not who Barry or Iris have been portrayed as in the past.

Iris did acknowledge her feelings and apologize (while sticking to her stance). I do think we'll see more nuance, justification, and apologies later.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

• Who else was involved, and what were the circumstances? So far, supressing Nora's powers is being presented as solely Future Iris' decision; but I have a hard time believing that she thought up this idea, made the chip, and implanted it all by herself. Which leads to...

I mean, even from a technical stand-point, there's no way Iris invented a chip to suppress meta powers so either KillerVibe helped her with it after Barry died ---- or it was Barry's idea in the first place to do it. 

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

So I just don’t get what was supposed to be going on with Barry’s athletic abilities... unless he thought he was better without his powers than he really was and was just clueless enough to think he didn’t need his powers to be ok playing the game?  Like I said.  I was confused about that whole section   I don’t get what they were trying to do.

I don't think it's complicated: the show's always been consistent that without his speed, Barry's a klutz. ("He runs slow for a normal person"). It was for laughs.

On a more serious note, the entire baseball sequence worked well on so many levels because it took the crew out of STAR Labs, reminded us that these people had lives out of STAR Labs, had them interacting with each other on none-STAR Labs/Team Flash stuff (lol! see a pattern there?), casually passed the Bechdel test without making it into a Very Special Episode like Girls' Night ---- and still built up to the A-plot with Spencer. 

I don't know if it's new blood in the writing room or AJK leaving, but more of this please!

[ottoDbusdriver]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

As mentioned by a couple others, they really need to state a solid reason as to why they're letting Nora stay in the past (before her conception - pretty dangerous!) to continue to affect the timeline. We know her reasons, but why is everyone else okay with it?

As we discovered from Flashpoint, small changes in the timeline can have large consequences -- just ask Diggle about his son (who was previously his daughter BEFORE Flashpoint).  As Nora spends more and more time in the past, time of her conception can change, her birth date can change, her gender can change, etc.  She could also end up looking completely different..

I also find it weird that no one else seems concerned about sending Nora back to the future ASAP.

Edited November 2, 2018 by ottoDbusdriver

[phoenics]

On 10/31/2018 at 12:49 PM, Chick2Chic said:

Also, it came across to me that Caitlin was being shoe-horned into those WestAllen family scenes. Like I was perplexed with her being at the softball game... yes, I get she could be there just being a friend but it just seemed off and ingratiating. I also didn't like how Cecile and Caitlin shared a gossipy look over Nora's shade and bad attitude at the game. WTF was that? 

 

I know folks here think I'm totally overreacting to this Nora/Iris storyline and think my belief that the writers are setting this up as a bone for Iris-haters (basically disgruntled SB fans) is overblown.  But this scene basically confirms it - there was NO REASON for that Cecile/Caitlin look.  First off - it was too "pleased".  They looked HAPPY that Nora cut Iris down.  HAPPY?!   WTF?  Why?  That made Cecile especially look petty and catty AF.  And now Nora moves in with her?  Do not like!  

And the part with Caitlin lingered way too long - they gave her TWO shots of looking pleased as punch that Nora cut Iris down.  That little part of the scene sent me over the edge - but by the looks of twitter, the haters LOVED it.  I think what bothered me the most was the writers had Cecile do it too - almost to take the heat off from only having Caitlin do it (because that would have been too obvious).  But having 2 shots of DP doing it was DEFINITELY a signal to her fans.  Plus DP then tweeted about this, begging for Iris-hate.  But SURRRREEEEEE this storyline has NOTHING to do with baiting Iris-haters.

Again - the writers may have every intention of jumping to the future and revealing FutureIris' point of view - but I've seen slanted writing before and know what hate-bait looks like.  This is it.  I think the reality is that many fans will hate Iris regardless - so might as well get something out of it by giving them hate-bait.  And yes - CP is acting her ass off.  But it's still annoying that this went on (Nora acting bitchy to Iris) for so long with no one else calling her out.  Just like the showrunners left CP on her own to deal with the racism, the show left Iris alone to deal with Nora.  It wasn't until that last scene that ANYONE stepped up to defend Iris (for something she hasn't even done!) or to call Nora out for being a brat.  

And I get what folks are saying about making Iris too perfect - but I'm not arguing for that.  What I'm angry about is that we may NEVER see FutureIris' point of view.  This show is TERRIBLE at doing that for Iris and if it does give us FutureIris' point of view, it would be for the FIRST TIME EVER.  Ya'll keep acting like they didn't literally wallpaper Iris during a season long arc about Savitar trying to kill her?  And ya'll think it's a foregone conclusion that this show will vindicate her?  LOL.  okay.

Remember - the writers also used Spin this episode to attack Iris over her blog and not backing down from it when she might have been in danger - which was VERY different than Spin writing about a meta and putting that meta at risk due to Cicada.  But yet the writers used Spin to smack Iris down with that.  They can remember that part of S1, but they fall down on other continuity?

But this storyline isn't bait for Iris-hate?

Yeah.  Okay.  *side eye*

Well - if they can do this with Iris then at least have someone shade Caitlin for trying to kill Iris and never apologizing, and maybe more shade for Barry and flashpoint.  And Joe for Francine and Barry being the Flash.  And God knows what else.  I just hate how I'm supposed to sit here and take this Iris story at face value and love it (because we don't want Iris to be PERFECT - which is NOT what I ever said!), but I simultaneously have to sit through an entire storyline for Caitlin meant to absolve her of every sin she's ever committed and never apologized for.

But there isn't slanted writing?

Okay.