S01.E08: You Got Me Babe

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Joe and Beck's lives have taken very different turns. On paper, each is doing great. A chance encounter brings every possibility to the surface and must decide which way their want their story to go.

[Spartan Girl]

Karen, you just dodged the world's biggest bullet.

Beck, you've just signed your death warrant. Though at this point, Joe and Beck kind of deserve each other. They're both toxic obsessed people. 

Paco's mom sucks. It's time for Ron to go bye-bye. Go for it, Joe.

[tennisgurl]

I knew that Joe wouldn't let go of Beck so easily, but as it turns out, Beck isnt great at moving on either. Going beyond just standard looking at pics of your ex online, she talks about him to her therapist, obsesses about him and his new girlfriend, and then has an affair with him. She really is messed up. I mean, not as messed up as Joe (who has an actual body count) but she isnt exactly the picture of sweetness and zen. 

Karen really did dodge a bullet, and showed way more class than I think I would have. Just glad that she seems to have escaped. Not so sure about sexy bearded Stamos, Pacos mom, or Ron. Not that I would be too sad to see Ron go, and Pacos mom pretty much sucks. I feel for her dealing with an addiction and being a single parent, but letting your kid around this clear asshole who treats him like crap? Not great parenting. 

So Beck found success writing about Peaches death? Now I wonder if the show will end with Joe dead or in jail, and Beck writing a best selling novel about the whole ordeal. I feel like Peach would be alright with being immortalized in novel form by her grieving best friend/secret crush, but I admit, it can look a bit skeevy using her best friends supposed suicide for a career boost. What does that guy from The Medium know anyway?!

Those shots of Benji dying and dead were super creepy, and a good reminder that, while Joe can come off as sweet, running after the woman of his dreams and being sweet to the neighbor and her kid, the guy is scary and dangerous. I am also interested in the backstory we have gotten for Joe so far. We get bits and pieces, but it paints a dark picture. 

I just really, really want Paco to be alright. 

[LittleIggy]

I hope I’m not the only person who said “Yay” when Joe and Beck got back together! ?I know, I’m sick! 

How did Karen know about Candace? 

Paco’s mother sucks. She is a nurse, right? Don’t they have programs for impaired nurses/doctors so they can get treatment and not lose their jobs.

Only two more episodes! ☹️ I love this show!

Edited October 29, 2018 by LittleIggy

[SnarkEnthusiast]

I haven't read the book so I don't know how prominently featured as a character Karen actually is, but I was disappointed in how quickly she was wasted. She really was a breath of fresh air in a sea of ditzy insufferable millennials. Obviously Joe's infatuation with Beck was never going to die and his fling with Karen would always have an expiration date, but I feel like they introduced her for the sole purpose of having Joe cheat (which was inevitable), rather than letting her play detective first and making Joe sweat a bit. Instead, she just kind of fizzled out and became quite a cliché antagonist... that last scene with Beck was so cardboard and cringey. All that was missing was a mustache for Karen to twirl. At least Joe didn't kill her. I thought it was interesting that his obsessive tendencies didn't latch on to Karen, yet he fixated on both of his girlfriends prior to her. What makes her different? Is it because he weirdly respects Karen for being a kind and stable person and is only set off by and drawn to other toxic personalities?

Paco is a nice foil. I know that he exists to give the audience more empathy for Joe. He's very sweet, but in my opinion the actor is one note and his monotone mousy delivery stifled the emotional range of what were some pretty heavy moments this episode. The whole detoxing of his mom didn't work for me. So her job isn't going to question where she was for days? More importantly, she's not going to question why her friend and her boyfriend just had a random dungeon in a basement where they essentially held her against her will?...Alright then.

Dr. John Stamos has definitely already put together that Joe and Beck are talking about each other. He's either going to die or have something to do with taking Joe down. The montage of him absolutely not giving a fuck and smoking weed while Joe and Beck have sex was hilarious. They're too self-absorbed to even realize he's onto them.

The boat sex was weird/implausible but the other sex scenes in the montage were pretty hot, minus the exaggerated butt groping in the closet which made me laugh. What was happening there? God, they're both terrible people. I'm glad the cheating wasn't dragged out another episode. 

Penn Badgley continues to kill it (no pun intended) with the line readings. "It's a date - SHIT!" while chucking his phone was probably the funniest moment of the episode for me. I also think his internal monologue after running into Beck while helping their friends move single-handedly established the entire atmosphere and all the tension for the scene – and made it all the more creepy because Beck had no idea that he basically couldn't contain himself. It felt very sex predator to be literally aroused at the sight of her. Given all the creepy masturbation scenes we've had, I'm surprised she didn't walk in on him whipping it out. Something about the way Penn delivered "they're just knees, they're just legs" was so disembodied that it really gave you a stark reminder of just how unhealthy his fixation is and how detached he is in his objectification of her. Disturbing!

So Beck has a designated masturbation pillow? I hope she washes that shit.

[SnarkEnthusiast]

45 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So Beck found success writing about Peaches death? Now I wonder if the show will end with Joe dead or in jail, and Beck writing a best selling novel about the whole ordeal. I feel like Peach would be alright with being immortalized in novel form by her grieving best friend/secret crush, but I admit, it can look a bit skeevy using her best friends supposed suicide for a career boost. What does that guy from The Medium know anyway?

To me, that was the cherry on top of the turd sundae that is Beck's poser personality. Who immediately seeks to monetize the death of their best friend? Beck really is an opportunistic snake. And she still couldn't write for shit even after being handed a book deal to write about her favorite subjects, herself and her pain! What a fucking loser. She constantly blames everyone else for everything, yet can't be bothered when the exact opportunities she's been whining about not getting literally fall into her lap. This asshole is infuriating.

[princelina]

22 minutes ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

To me, that was the cherry on top of the turd sundae that is Beck's poser personality. Who immediately seeks to monetize the death of their best friend? Beck really is an opportunistic snake. And she still couldn't write for shit even after being handed a book deal to write about her favorite subjects, herself and her pain! What a fucking loser. She constantly blames everyone else for everything, yet can't be bothered when the exact opportunities she's been whining about not getting literally fall into her lap. This asshole is infuriating.

Agree.  For some reason Joe dumping that nice Karen for her made me angrier at him than when he killed Benjy or Peach :)  Also I wonder how writing an "essay" that "goes viral" turns into a book deal.  None of her writing topics seem book worthy to me.  Can't stand her friend/Ethan's girlfriend either.  They're both such pretentious assholes.

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

All that was missing was a mustache for Karen to twirl. At least Joe didn't kill her. I thought it was interesting that his obsessive tendencies didn't latch on to Karen, yet he fixated on both of his girlfriends prior to her. What makes her different? Is it because he weirdly respects Karen for being a kind and stable person and is only set off by and drawn to other toxic personalities?

I think it's that he didn't choose her.  She chose him.  He couldn't build up an alternate personality for her before she was in his life and inserting who she was.  She knows who she is and there's no feeling that she needs to be saved.  Had she gone a little crazy when he broke up with her, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Joe ping pong between the two.

The author of the book wrote this episode and it was a fun, well-crafted episode.  The affair scenes were pretty hot.  And I love the stylized way the psychiatrist was used in the episode.  

Quote

 I feel like they introduced her for the sole purpose of having Joe cheat

I think she also soured Beck on Joe again by bringing up Candace and pointing out that he was a cheater.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

To me, that was the cherry on top of the turd sundae that is Beck's poser personality. Who immediately seeks to monetize the death of their best friend? Beck really is an opportunistic snake.

Beck really can only write about herself, right? She writes endlessly about her dead dad (who isnt dead), and her dead best friend and how everything comes back to being about HER, and when she is asked to write about anything else, she just blanks and using writing as an excuse to be lazy. Honestly, if it wasn't for the murder, she would probably be flattered that Joe was obsessed with her, or excited that she had a new topic to write angsty poetry about. 

I am going to miss this show so much, its been a real surprise for me. I hope it gets more buzz going, its been such a great ride. 

[skotnikov]

Oh, it can't get any better than that.

I'm also a big fan of their episode endings.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

The John Stamos therapist has figured out who Joe is talking about?  Is what what I'm supposed to get from this episode?  What was all that mouse in the house crap advice that he was feeding to both Beck AND Joe?  Can somebody explain?  If he was giving them the same advice, does that mean he had this figured out?  And then they showed him relaxed, smoking after... so... is that what I was supposed to take from that?

9 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

I haven't read the book so I don't know how prominently featured as a character Karen actually is, but I was disappointed in how quickly she was wasted. She really was a breath of fresh air in a sea of ditzy insufferable millennials.

It's soooooo funny that she likes King of Queens.  My brother's been pushing me to watch it for ages and I finally started and now I am in drowning in a 9 season wormhole I don't want to get out of.  LOL.  So I'm Karen.

I'm kinda over Paco, LOL.  But I'm pretty much always uncomfortable with children acting, and the subject matter of this show certainly doesn't help.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Chaos Theory]

Could Beck be just as obsessed at Joe?  Maybe not but Babe....:seriously......,

I loved the scene where Joe tried to check up on Beck but she had gone dark.  Seriously how rude of her to make it hard for him to stalk her.,.. 

[waving feather]

Joe and Beck really deserve each other. They are both terrible people and worse, pretentious snobs. Looking down on people use "babe" and stickers on their pictures. Peach and Benji were exactly right when they said Beck uses people. She just wants Joe back to aid her writing process and she already used Peach's death for her writing fame less than a year after her friend died. And she's posing her dad is dead for sympathy points in her writing. Sheesh.

Edited October 30, 2018 by waving feather

[Jadzia]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

The John Stamos therapist has figured out who Joe is talking about?  Is what what I'm supposed to get from this episode?  What was all that mouse in the house crap advice that he was feeding to both Beck AND Joe?  Can somebody explain?  If he was giving them the same advice, does that mean he had this figured out?  And then they showed him relaxed, smoking after... so... is that what I was supposed to take from that?

I didn't get the impression he had figured it out, but maybe I missed something an earlier post alluded to?

My impression from the scene was just that he is sort of a lazy therapist and gives the same stock advice to everyone. I thought showing him relaxed and smoking weed was just underscoring that. That he probably has some canned replies he uses in situations and then sort of sits back like, my job is done here.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

How did Karen know about Candace? 

I wondered about that, too. Obviously Joe told her, but why?

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm kinda over Paco, LOL. 

Same here. I get why he's in the show, but Joe isn't helping him much these days, so he just seems like a bother in the show. And now that Karen seems to have washed her hands of his mother, we're back to square one with her and the abusive boyfriend, and zzzz if nothing is going to change there.

21 minutes ago, Jadzia said:

My impression from the scene was just that he is sort of a lazy therapist and gives the same stock advice to everyone. I thought showing him relaxed and smoking weed was just underscoring that. That he probably has some canned replies he uses in situations and then sort of sits back like, my job is done here.

Well, he does have lots of metaphors. ;-)

I liked that Joe has a bit of PTSD over Benji's death. Letting a body decay in the book vault for a few days should have some effect on him.

[chick binewski]

11 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

How did Karen know about Candace? 

Paco’s mother sucks. She is a nurse, right? Don’t they have programs for impaired nurses/doctors so they can get treatment and not lose their jobs.

1

To me, the way the episode unfolded it seemed like Karen was coming to an understanding that Beck was an obstacle in the way of her own relationship with Joe. So when Karen name-dropped Candace it seemed incredibly out of place and only done to bring the subject of next week's episode to the forefront.

And I'm anxious to see how Joe deals with his neighbor situation, but I do not care about the character of the mother. At all. Which may be purposeful in what they have planned for her.

10 hours ago, princelina said:

Can't stand her friend/Ethan's girlfriend either.  They're both such pretentious assholes.

 

I know! Beck totally deserves Blythe as a replacement Best Friend to make up for Dead Best Friend, but poor Ethan does NOT deserve Blythe! 

[Ms Blue Jay]

11 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

All that was missing was a mustache for Karen to twirl. At least Joe didn't kill her. I thought it was interesting that his obsessive tendencies didn't latch on to Karen, yet he fixated on both of his girlfriends prior to her. What makes her different? Is it because he weirdly respects Karen for being a kind and stable person and is only set off by and drawn to other toxic personalities?

Interesting.  She's not that vulnerable?  She doesn't really need him?  She doesn't need to "fixed" or "rescued" by him?  (thinking in Joe terms, not mine.)

11 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

Dr. John Stamos has definitely already put together that Joe and Beck are talking about each other. He's either going to die or have something to do with taking Joe down. The montage of him absolutely not giving a fuck and smoking weed while Joe and Beck have sex was hilarious. They're too self-absorbed to even realize he's onto them.

Thanks.  I feel more confident in what I got from the episode now!

11 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

Penn Badgley continues to kill it (no pun intended) with the line readings. "It's a date - SHIT!" while chucking his phone was probably the funniest moment of the episode for me.

I forget what he said, but his reading of his internal monologue while trying to act "normal" with Karen, like using the word "Babe" and other really normie words like that was so funny.  (Not making fun, that's how I probably speak too.)

Edited October 29, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, waving feather said:

Joe and Beck really deserves each other. They are both terrible people and worse, pretentious snobs. Looking down on people use "babe" and stickers on their pictures. 

OMG!  You're so right.  Insufferable.  Yet I don't mind it as much from Joe because I feel like it's authentically him whereas Beck is posing.  (Sick to sympathize with the murderer; I know.)  At least Joe tried really hard to accept Karen and kind of act like her.  It was kind of adorable.  I mean he was cool with her watching King of Queens, the show that ALL pretentious people make fun of.  (It's easy to make fun of; I get it; but now I also love it.)  

Edited October 29, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I wondered about that, too. Obviously Joe told her, but why?

No idea.  But either way Karen, unlike Beck, isn't too self absorbed to stop from putting two and two together.  I kind of hate that she left Paco high and dry, but I understand why she was so fed up with his mom going back to that abusive asshole.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

Paco is a nice foil. I know that he exists to give the audience more empathy for Joe. He's very sweet, but in my opinion the actor is one note and his monotone mousy delivery stifled the emotional range of what were some pretty heavy moments this episode. The whole detoxing of his mom didn't work for me. So her job isn't going to question where she was for days? More importantly, she's not going to question why her friend and her boyfriend just had a random dungeon in a basement where they essentially held her against her will?...Alright then.

I feel like all of this can be explained pretty easily. Paco's flat affect could be a result of learning to make himself as "invisible" as possible because of what he has to deal with in terms of abuse. And who knows--maybe someone did call the mom's work and said there was a family emergency or some shit? Or maybe her work did become suspicious and that will somehow come up later. And as for the "dungeon," all that would take is someone saying it was the basement of the store that Joe manages. Not really anything the audience needs to see, as we already know that. 

Haha, "babe" makes me cringe. Other people can name their SO's whatever they want, but I'd put a stop to it quick if my BF picked up on that routine.

Edited October 29, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[Madding crowd]

I was going back and forth on whether Dr. Nicky knew their stories were about each other. They have the exact same story more or less, but many young people are going through bad relationships and he probably hears similar things all the time. I haven't found the last two episodes to be as compelling as the others. It is very hard to create a likable murderer and in order to root for him to be caught you have to be invested in his victims. With Beck, we are not that invested. Also, as a writer myself, Beck's getting a book deal because of one essay about a friend is just unbelievable. I also dont think her MFA program would be satisfied with her only writing about herself. Most programs would require fiction or poetry on an ongoing basis.

Not interested in Paco's mom and don't know why we had the whole detox story. I did like it (and was sad about) Joe forgetting about Paco because Beck beckoned. It showed who Joe really is.  I feel really sad for Paco because he has nobody. It also felt a bit false to have Joe having flashbacks and being so freaked out by killing when Benj, when he killed Peach and probably Candice without a second thought. I'm in till the end and hope they can come up with some new targets for Joe. 

[SnarkEnthusiast]

4 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm kinda over Paco, LOL.  But I'm pretty much always uncomfortable with children acting, and the subject matter of this show certainly doesn't help.

 

Believe me, you haven't known discomfort until you see the child actors on The Alienist, which is about trying to catch a murderer who's dismembering cross dressing child prostitutes in 1890s New York. Naturally, we get a lot of scenes in the child brothel, featuring actual 11 to 15-year-old boys wearing dresses and a full face of makeup, preening and posing to seduce their potential clients, who are not just adult men, but middle-aged men. The boys also frequently hit on the main character investigating the case because that's just how they are used to interacting with adult men. It's not only disturbing to watch the child actors, but even more disturbing to think that that was an actual, well-known practice in New York at one point.

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Same here. I get why he's in the show, but Joe isn't helping him much these days, so he just seems like a bother in the show. And now that Karen seems to have washed her hands of his mother, we're back to square one with her and the abusive boyfriend, and zzzz if nothing is going to change there.

Given the antagonism between Joe and the boyfriend, the boyfriend's past insinuations to the police, and the fact that Paco was sleeping at Joe's place, combined with Joe's odd mannerisms and antisocial behavior, I'm assuming the final straw will either be the boyfriend physically hitting Paco or more likely, the boyfriend accusing Joe of grooming Paco or molesting him.

Edited October 29, 2018 by SnarkEnthusiast

[princelina]

4 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I was going back and forth on whether Dr. Nicky knew their stories were about each other. They have the exact same story more or less, but many young people are going through bad relationships and he probably hears similar things all the time. I haven't found the last two episodes to be as compelling as the others. It is very hard to create a likable murderer and in order to root for him to be caught you have to be invested in his victims. With Beck, we are not that invested. Also, as a writer myself, Beck's getting a book deal because of one essay about a friend is just unbelievable. I also dont think her MFA program would be satisfied with her only writing about herself. Most programs would require fiction or poetry on an ongoing basis.

Not interested in Paco's mom and don't know why we had the whole detox story. I did like it (and was sad about) Joe forgetting about Paco because Beck beckoned. It showed who Joe really is.  I feel really sad for Paco because he has nobody. It also felt a bit false to have Joe having flashbacks and being so freaked out by killing when Benj, when he killed Peach and probably Candice without a second thought. I'm in till the end and hope they can come up with some new targets for Joe. 

Maybe he is likable because all of the other main characters suck?  hehe

Paco's mom in the Benjy vault led to what was for me the funniest line of the night - "Benjy was too lazy to run his own business; I'm sure he won't bother to haunt mine" :D

[dubbel zout]

7 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

I'm assuming the final straw will either be the boyfriend physically hitting Paco or more likely, the boyfriend accusing Joe of grooming Paco or molesting him.

Yeah, same here, and it's too predictable to me interesting to me.

[waving feather]

The reason this show works is because both Joe and Beck are hot messes. If one of them is a "good guy", it would be boring to watch and we'd constantly feel bad for the good person. Now it's entertaining like a train wreck, since Beck has serious issues too. I didn't think Karen was being villainous in the scene at the end. This is exactly what Beck deserves. She did went behind her back and initiated most of the cheating (though Joe is equally responsible). Karen didn't go to confront Beck because she wants Joe back but she wants to put a seed of doubt in her mind and she succeeded. It is funny how she seems to know more about Candace than Beck. Shows how unaware Beck is of what's going on around her. No wonder people in her life manipulate her left and right. I believe even Joe said this episode how Beck doesn't notice him in the relationship. She didn't even notice when he had a head injury.

Edited October 30, 2018 by waving feather

[BaskingsharkGTX]

Beck. Is. So. Awful. You have a whole toxic relationship with a guy WHO YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT and who you do not bother to find out anything about, you break up with him because you decide he's clingy/stalky and you don't want to be "suffocated," then he gets into another relationship and you decide you want him back to use as an emotional crutch because your writing sucks again so you go after him and sleep with him in spite of his nice girlfriend.

In fact you are so self-absorbed that it's a revelation when said angry now-ex-girlfriend points out that he had another previous girlfriend. I could almost hear Beck's thoughts in that scene as the gears in her mind suddenly ground into action in a way they never have before as she found herself actually thinking about some other people. "OMG, she's right... there was Candace. And he did cheat on Karen with ME. I... I wonder what actually happened to Candace? Whatever it was, I wonder if it could happen to me? Hmmm, I should find out because if I do, that might then reveal a whole bunch of other things I can make be about me."

Seriously, the writers are doing an amazing job of creating Beck in such a way that I do not feel even slightly bad that she's dating a psycho who might kill her.

That said, in the last scene Karen's behavior and dialog did feel like it kinda come out of nowhere. This was the first episode where I felt a bit of the writing was a little off.

The boat sex was, uh, furtive. And lucky that this huge tourist destination boat was suddenly empty. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by BaskingsharkGTX
Better writing. Although the original version was still better than anything Beck has written on the show.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, BaskingsharkGTX said:

The boat sex was, uh, furtive. And lucky that this huge tourist destination boat was suddenly empty. 

That cracked me up. It must have been a very cold day for them to be the only ones on the open deck, hee.

[luckyroll3]

13 hours ago, BaskingsharkGTX said:

Beck. Is. So. Awful. You have a whole toxic relationship with a guy WHO YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT and who you do not bother to find out anything about, you break up with him because you decide he's clingy/stalky and you don't want to be "suffocated," then he gets into another relationship and you decide you want him back to use as an emotional crutch because your writing sucks again so you go after him and sleep with him in spite of his nice girlfriend.

In fact you are so self-absorbed that it's a revelation when said angry now-ex-girlfriend points out that he had another previous girlfriend. I could almost hear Beck's thoughts in that scene as the gears in her mind suddenly ground into action in a way they never have before as she found herself actually thinking about some other people. "OMG, she's right... there was Candace. And he did cheat on Karen with ME. I... I wonder what actually happened to Candace? Whatever it was, I wonder if it could happen to me? Hmmm, I should find out because if I do, that might then reveal a whole bunch of other things I can make be about me."

Seriously, the writers are doing an amazing job of creating Beck in such a way that I do not feel even slightly bad that she's dating a psycho who might kill her.

That said, in the last scene Karen's behavior and dialog did feel like it kinda come out of nowhere. This was the first episode where I felt a bit of the writing was a little off.

The boat sex was, uh, furtive. And lucky that this huge tourist destination boat was suddenly empty. 

Quoted because I wanted to tell you that your reason for editing comment made me chuckle!  Lol!  Oh, and also because I agree with everything else you wrote.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

Couldn't believe Joe was still seeing Dr. Nicky. And still trying to pretend he was gay.

Ditto comments upthread, had Dr. Nicky figured out what Joe and Beck were doing? And if so, wouldn't it be kind of unethical for him to be treating them both? Professional ethics don't seem to be one if his higher priorities though...

Poor Paco. All the adults in his life let him down.

Sex on a public ferry in broad daylight. Ugh. So 50 Shades.

I was disappointed Karen felt the need to confront Beck. But wow, she kind of put a curse on Beck with that Candace remark. And she has no idea the bullet she just dodged though she does seem to sense that whatever happened with Candace ended quite badly. Life-altering badly.

[Mahamid Frauded Me]

@SnarkEnthusiast - loved The Alienist, and I really had a hard time seeing those kids and saying to myself, did this shit really go down? 

I was glad Karen got the boot and maybe a lifesaving one. Beck and Joe deserve each other, they are both too self absorbed. Sorry, but Karen gets major kudos from me

helping a friend detox for several days on end, especially in a creepy basement.     

[AuntieDiane6]

Quote

I forget what he said, but his reading of his internal monologue while trying to act "normal" with Karen, like using the word "Babe" and other really normie words like that was so funny.  (Not making fun, that's how I probably speak too.)

Boy, do I wish Penn Badgely as Joe had met Dexter ... both of them determined to get rid of bad guys - one bad guys in his life, the other criminally bad guys... Joe could have advised Dexter on how to court Rita (RIP).

[Lady Calypso]

I do find it much harder to like Beck the more we get to know her. I think a portion of that has to do with us not really getting her own point of view. We're still seeing this series through Joe's eyes, so we're hearing his dialogue and knowing his feelings, but Beck is one that we can only guess based off of what she says, what her actions are, and how other people see her. But yeah, she's very self absorbed and she's a user. I think the jealousy stemming from Joe's new relationship and how she wrote a novel about Peach's death showcases a lot about Beck as a person. 

Perhaps, if there was equal narration on Beck's side, there could be more sympathy drawn. But this show is incredibly one sided, where it's obvious why it's hard to not root for Joe, even though he's a pretty awful people. He's a murderer and a stalker and a total psychopath. 

I like Karen, which is why it's absolutely the best thing that she got dumped by Joe. It's a sigh of relief that Joe didn't feel the need to keep her around and to let her go. It saves her own life in the process. 

Paco's an interesting piece to Joe's puzzle. That's really all he is, as well as his mom and her boyfriend. They're only foils to Joe's story, as are every single person in this show. 

Dr. Nicky may be an interesting piece to Joe's story as well. His purpose so far has been to listen to Joe/"Paul" and Beck, but what other purpose does he serve?

[EarlGreyTea]

I'm trying not to get too attached to Karen, but I love her. I hope this isn't the end of the line for her character, plot device that she was. Maybe it was the acting, but the character has emerged fully-blown and interesting. Joe was spot-on when he described her as knowing who she was. Which is probably what takes the fun out of it for him. She's too real for him. People have said it in previous threads, but Beck is such an empty vessel for Joe to project his perfect-girl fantasies. I can't say I agree when people say they don't know what Joe sees in Beck. She's stunning, and quite frankly that's all some men (and women) need. I didn't mind her until this episode, but I didn't like the way she and Joe thoroughly screwed Karen over. I'm glad she got the last word with Beck.

Paco is the most likeable kid actor I've seen outside of an episode of Stranger Things. The character does wonders for Joe's likeability. Penn and the kid are so natural together. It's amazing how invested Joe is in Paco's family, when he doesn't seem to care about anything but Beck.

[bettername2come]

"How the hell am I supposed to be great with you being gone if you're actually gone?!" "You got me, babe!" and the window breaking. I am not supposed to be so amused by these screwed up romantic comedy things. Not in this context.

Whoa, that breakdown in the cage over Benji with Claudia sick. Very humanizing moment. Also, the guy only destroyed $10,000 worth of inventory? That's like 100 $100 books. Seems like the extremely rare books would be more than that. Benji destroyed like everything in there, even before the stench set in.

Karen is way better than Beck. She's the strong female character we deserve. Damn it, Claudia! Make better choices.

[Black Knight]

On 10/29/2018 at 7:40 AM, Jadzia said:

I didn't get the impression he had figured it out, but maybe I missed something an earlier post alluded to?

My impression from the scene was just that he is sort of a lazy therapist and gives the same stock advice to everyone. I thought showing him relaxed and smoking weed was just underscoring that. That he probably has some canned replies he uses in situations and then sort of sits back like, my job is done here.

Yeah, I just watched this episode with my friend, and I was commenting to her throughout about how he seems totally checked out of his job. He was bored listening to Joe and Beck go on, not that I blame him in the slightest. If he knew what was really going on with them, Joe especially, he'd be interested, but what he does hear is just boring, delusional navel-gazing of the mundane problems of wanting to be with someone you're not currently with, which is also a problem common enough that he wouldn't think anything of hearing two of his patients talk about it. He just seems mostly like a way to let viewers know where Joe and Beck are psychologically by giving them someone to talk to. It's John Stamos, so maybe he has something meatier later.

On 11/11/2018 at 1:33 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I do find it much harder to like Beck the more we get to know her. I think a portion of that has to do with us not really getting her own point of view. We're still seeing this series through Joe's eyes, so we're hearing his dialogue and knowing his feelings, but Beck is one that we can only guess based off of what she says, what her actions are, and how other people see her. But yeah, she's very self absorbed and she's a user. I think the jealousy stemming from Joe's new relationship and how she wrote a novel about Peach's death showcases a lot about Beck as a person. 

Perhaps, if there was equal narration on Beck's side, there could be more sympathy drawn. But this show is incredibly one sided, where it's obvious why it's hard to not root for Joe, even though he's a pretty awful people. He's a murderer and a stalker and a total psychopath. 

We got Beck's internal monologue in an earlier episode and getting it again would just make her more unlikable to me. I had hoped that she had some depths to her, but she proved herself to just be vapid and annoying. At least when we don't hear her internal monologue she's marginally more tolerable, since she is at least self-aware enough to know she shouldn't voice most of her inner thoughts to other people.

Thank goodness they haven't gone back to it. I don't think I could stand the show if I had to listen to her internal monologue episode after episode.

It doesn't help Peach is gone. Yeah, Peach was obsessed with Beck too, but she also did call her on some of her crap. She wasn't quite the adoring enabler that Joe is. I guess a different way of putting it is that Peach looked to draw Beck into her web, mainly through offering her money and a luxurious lifestyle, while Joe looked to insert himself into Beck's web, mainly through trying to be the perfect supportive boyfriend.

[DanaMB]

Rewatching this and seeing how Beck insinuated herself back into Joe’s life makes me wonder

Spoiler

if she would have ended up staying away from him would she still be alive or would Joe have eventually snapped at not having her and she still would have ended up dead? Not blaming the victim here, just curious.

 I mean, he was still obsessing over her even with him saying how he happy he was with Karen (who I really liked) but was keeping his physical distance. 

[Anela]

Beck didn't like that Joe had actually moved on (for the most part), and seemed to be happy.

Karen is amazing, she deserves better, and I'm glad that she got out of the relationship alive. She is the only likable person on this show, exept for Paco (?), and maybe the therapist. 

[Scarlett45]

I think the young man playing Paco is doing a good job. He’s just a kid and he feels betrayed and lied to, but he wants to feel safe. 
 

I liked Karen, and I’m glad she’s alive and away from Joe. I also understand why she’s switching jobs. You can’t save someone who doesn’t want to be saved, and continuing to go back to Ron, shows she isn’t ready yet. It’s a damn shame, but Karen did more than her part, she’s not responsible for Paco or his Mom. And Ron scares me, he’s not as smooth as Joe in hiding who he is, I think he’s probably too much of a punk to pick on someone who would fight back. 
 

The thing, is, these types of obsessions are never rational (or the wouldnt exist). Most stalkers don’t get fixated on everyone they meet or date (that’s just impractical). While Beck isn’t the world’s most stellar human, I think the writing is showing us that it’s not really about “her”, Joe’s issues are about Joe.