S01.E10: Silence Lay Steadily

[leocadia]

Quote

The Red Room's contents are finally revealed as the Cranes return to the house to confront old ghosts, unspeakable secrets and an insatiable evil.

Overall thoughts on the series:

• Criminal under-use of Timothy Hutton - it made me want to go watch Leverage instead
• I could never really wrap my head around the fact that it wasn't a prequel to the original story so much as it was a parallel version.  Almost all the family members had direct counterparts to the characters in the story, hell even some of the names were the same (Theodora and Eleanor/Nell).  I guess it's my issue for going in with a preconceived notion based on the premise that the story is about the Hugh Crane family but it was distracting.
• Most of the acting was decent, but there were times when the actress playing Theo went way over the top for me.  I don't know if it was her acting, the dialogue or a combination of both, but I found myself cringing on several occasions.  This also happened with Shirley and Olivia, but not as often as with Theo.
• Speaking of dialogue, apparently when we die we all become hack poets.  The ridiculously esoteric and flowery language in the last episode just made me roll my eyes a lot and wish the ghosts would be more succinct.
• There were some good atmospheric moments and real tension, but it dragged on way too long.  It felt like a 6 episode season could have told the story more effectively.
• It sounds like they borrowed heavily from Westworld for their theme music.

Edited October 15, 2018 by 17wheatthins
Fixed season/episode tag

[Keywestclubkid]

so at the end Hill House is basically a club med for the dead. You go you get to chill with your loved ones for eternity the evil house lets your spirit be happy and basically there is no downside ...... that was the stupidest ending that they could have done why even be scared to go there? The ghost for the most part leave you alone they just knock on doors to be let out or look for their missing bowling cap.most of the other crap was just them in a time loop trying to open a door........nothing in that place seemed so bad not like the ghost where chasing you anywhere or really even caring if you are in the house ....Even after you are dead you get to chill with the people you love. There wasn't anyone being tormented and it  looked like all the ghost got along .......And lets talk about how UnEvil that Evil house really was. the only thing that remotely seemed to be amiss is the dude down in the secret basement ripping the kids shirt and the Crazy ghost telling you that the world is gonna eat your babies and spit em out better to over coddle them and keep em inside and dont trust your husband... But come on she went on and on how her husband is her string and keeps her grounded she sure flipped super fast and easy that he would go against her when he showed no signs at all of being or doing that. And when that crazy ghost that was supposed to be the big bad (was there a big bad? like what was the whole point of the house anyway why did it collect souls?) is being to aggressive with your alive husband all you have to do is say stop messing with him and shes like Ok my bad I'll chill he was cute ...what the what???? .... And what the fuck was the point of that room they went on and on about the heart of the house but never say why that room is the heart or what made it the heart or even what the house wants. Good god to have it start so good just to end with that shit show.. I get he wanted to make it a family drama that just so happened to take place in a haunted house but to not answer one question about the house or why it does what it does and why it didn't seem evil at all lol come on now and to just end the show was a big middle finger to viewers .I mean if he just would have talked to his dead wife and just said hey I'll bring the kids and we will visit (like the caretakers did with their kid I mean if the house is nice enough to let them visit their dead kid every day for 20 years and didn’t try to kill them I don’t see why not do the same for the dead mom) it would have cut out some much crap lol ..... somehow i feel like Ryan Murphy must have had a hand in talking to him lol it was like American Horror Story light lol

Edited October 13, 2018 by Keywestclubkid

[HollyG]

It was a bit like American Horror Story: Murder House in that anyone who died on the property, stayed there forever. The ghosts seemed to want Olivia harm her kids & die in the house... sorta like Jack in The Shining or the 60s movie The Innocents.

I liked the series up until the last episode. I thought it ended a bit cheesy...wrapped up a little too neatly.  Maybe they didn't know if they would get a second season and thought it needed to be resolved.

[rainsmom]

My favorite part was learning that the treehouse, the game room, Mom's resting room, the dance studio, etc. were all the Red Room. That was the coolest reveal in the whole show to me.

Overall I found the ending disappointing. Dad staying with Mom was a huge cliche and telegraphed from a million miles away. Basically the whole story is about a mentally ill mom trying to protect her children. Okay. If there hadn't been any other ghosts, that would have been fine. But there were. And they were terrifying and stalk-y because... erm, why? Tall dude wanted his hat. Flapper chick was cray. But no other ghost had ANY sort of motive, and they turned out to not be bad or tortured or anything. They're just spending their afterlife in the place they died -- in some cases willingly.

The ending just didn't match the tone of the rest of the series.

I don't see how it can possibly have a second season -- not at Hill House.

[I-Kare]

32 minutes ago, rainsmom said:

My favorite part was learning that the treehouse, the game room, Mom's resting room, the dance studio, etc. were all the Red Room. That was the coolest reveal in the whole show to me.

I'm with you! I loved this part of the last episode....I actually loved all of the series up until the last episode. Like you I thought the ending didn't match, almost like it was a different writer. 

SOOOOOOO many speeches that lasted way too long. Totally brought me out of the experience. 

I did like how each child was revisited, so if they would have kept that and the room reveal an then cut out every.single.speech. I would have been fine.

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, I-Kare said:

I actually loved all of the series up until the last episode. Like you I thought the ending didn't match, almost like it was a different writer. 

I'm right there with you. I watched the whole thing in two days, hadn't planned to, but my god it drew me in. And I have never cried so much during a horror movie/show, but certain storylines with the siblings genuinely moved me, particularly Luke's story. Seeing that adorable little boy with those big glasses turn into a drug addled, lost soul who stole from his family so much they have basically written him off broke me. So much of the show was very powerful and moving to me and then....

All the little ghosties get to die happily ever after? For real? I liked seeing the living get back together as the family they were supposed to be but I can't stand the idea that all these terrifying ghosts were just terrifying the family for no particular reason. I get why they were going after Mommy, trying to get her to kill her family to "feed" the house. That was a great horror concept. But then the house just lets them all leave? WTF was that? 

So, for me this series was AMAZING until the ending which felt like a cop out to me. The writers didn't know how to get the family out of the house alive so they just basically had them walk out basically undoing everything that came before. I guess I should be grateful they didn't all die and end up being a happy dead family in the house. That would have been worse I suppose. 

[Nancy Drew]

I actually liked the end. The house might be evil, but these people's biggest problems were always themselves. Clara was so scarred by a stillborn daughter that she entombed her living daughter on the edge of Hill House, which eventually led to the girl's death. Her paranoia intersected with Olivia's, but in the end it was Olivia's mental illness that set the stage for the last, horrible night. Olivia kept giving her daughters coffins-literally in Shirl's case, in the form of a glove box for Theo and a button box for Nell. In some ways it was easier to blame ghosts, but Abigail was REAL and no one could see it. Nell was haunting herself. 

Did the house have an evil impact on everyone? It seemed like Hazel Hill lived and died a normal life, and like she had a daughter who did as well? I'd sign on to the watch the prequel, because I have lots of questions about the house pre-Cranes. 

[Mabinogia]

41 minutes ago, Nancy Drew said:

I'd sign on to the watch the prequel, because I have lots of questions about the house pre-Cranes. 

I'd be in too. One of my issues with the end is that we never really did get answers. It did seem like most of the ghosts were just there. As the story unfolds and you learn that Bent Neck lady is really Nell she becomes more tragic than scary. Hat guy was creepy, but he never actually did anything, he just wanted his hat. lol The only one who seemed to actively affect them was the flapper who was said to be nuts in life so there's that.

You've got me thinking. So much of the "hauntings" were the children's imaginations. This is understandable. They are children and children tend to think a bump in the night is the boogeyman and not just a drafty house. Of course then they've got mom acting strange and fairly spooky talking to nothing, punching mirrors, etc. and you've got dad pretending everything is fine.

And no one believes them. That is the part that got me the most. These poor children were being terrorized. The ghosts they saw might have meant them no harm, but how the hell was a 5/6 year old going to understand that when no one would listen to them. My heart broke for the twins. They really never stood a chance. 

I kept going back and forth on the parents. They seemed like they meant well and tried to be good parents, there were small moments where they did the right thing, but holy hell did they fuck their kids up big time and totally screwed up the bigger issues. What the show did do very well was make them kind of terrible parents but they didn't mean to be. They weren't abusive, they weren't neglectful, they just weren't really fit to be parents.

[Whimsy]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

. Hat guy was creepy, but he never actually did anything, he just wanted his hat. lol 

Was the hat the same as their dad’s at the funeral. I wasn’t paying close attention to the floating mans hat, but they sure zoomed in in Hugh’s hat 

[non sequitur]

I almost wish I didn't watch this. It was over the top, preachy and most of the visions became silly. It dragged a lot, and so much emphasis on the The Dudleys who should have been dealt with before. Really disappointed with the ending.

[jmonique]

On 10/13/2018 at 10:12 PM, HollyG said:

I liked the series up until the last episode. I thought it ended a bit cheesy...wrapped up a little too neatly.  Maybe they didn't know if they would get a second season and thought it needed to be resolved.

I really hope it doesn't get a second season, to be honest. This needs to be one of those one-and-done shows. I can't see any reason to come back to this unless, as was mentioned by someone else, it's a prequel.

Question: I wasn't clear, was Olivia supposed to be mentally ill, and the house made things worse? Or was this purely due to the ghosts?

It broke my heart in the earlier episodes to think of adorable little Luke growing up into a junkie who steals from his family on the regular, but given that he invited Abigail over to spend the night and then watched his mother kill her while trying to kill him and his sister? His fate made some sense.

The other thing I didn't quite get was how the red room was also Luke's treehouse, as well as all the other things to the other family members. I get the Room of Requirement aspect, but for it to also pull off being a treehouse seems odd.

Almost forgot: The actress who plays Leigh KILLED it in her rant at Steve during his vision. I also enjoyed Timothy Hutton in this episode.

Edited October 15, 2018 by jmonique

[Whimsy]

44 minutes ago, jmonique said:

Question: I wasn't clear, was Olivia supposed to be mentally ill, and the house made things worse? Or was this purely due to the ghosts?
 

What I got from the episodes was that she had a history of blinding headaches/migraines that got progressively worse at the Hill House.  They (Hugh & Olivia) thought the headaches and lack of sleep from them were what were causing her "issues", but really she was being driven insane by Poppy's ghost. 

[pasdetrois]

The last couple of episodes almost ruined the series for me. I liked the old-fashioned scary storytelling, without the copious gore that modern horror movies employ. But the endless whiny arguments and overacting in the last couple episodes were awful. Shirley's endless "fucks, fucking, etc." were lazy script writing. And poor Steve was forced to mouth endless mental health PSAs. "But Dad, she had a mental illness!" I also hate Rapunzel curls on adult women.

Better editing would have made for a great eight-episode series.

[calliope1975]

Aside from this episode, I really enjoyed the series. There was too much monologuing, and I didn't understand why Nell was so cool and calm about being tied to a haunted house that was said, in show, to be evil. 

But up to that point, I liked the exploration of what happens to people after they leave the haunted place. I don't remember having seen much of that in film/TV before that I can remember. I don't have any ties to the books, though, so that may have helped my enjoyment of the series. No need for a sequel; one and done is good for me.

[non sequitur]

On 10/15/2018 at 11:25 AM, jmonique said:

The actress who plays Leigh KILLED it in her rant at Steve during his vision.

I thought it was one of the most cringeworthy moments of the series, and it took me out of the episode.  I did like the actress though, and wished she was more involved in some way.

[Cardie]

When I got to the end, I felt I had watched This Is Us as written by Shirley Jackson. (I cried as much as at a TIU heart-tugger, despite clear knowledge that I was being manipulated.)

The twist, I think, was that the house wasn't evil at all. It just magnified the inhabitants' own fears and insecurities. Its superpower was that if you died there, you remained as a ghost that could interact with the living and the dead. It was lonely and wanted company, so did trick people into killing themselves, but gave them a nice afterlife and tried to have families die there together. The old couple who rush in to die are the Dudleys, who figure out how to live forever with Abigail and the stillborn baby whom Clara is cradling.

This is a shaky way to resolve things but a bit original at least. 

[LakeGal]

The last two episodes dragged a lot.  Too many long conversations that really didn't need to be heard.  

They did use boxes quite a bit in this series.  It seemed like every episode had something in a wooden box.

I enjoyed the series.  But I wanted to spend more time in Hill House.  It was not really a scary show.  I wanted more explanations.  

[rainsmom]

I'm left with questions.

First, I feel like what happened with dad and the police is a huge hole. He lost custody of his kids, but WHAT HAPPENED? Did he go to jail? If not, why did he lose custody?

Second, who the hell is the clock ghost? Why would he be in the house? Is he doomed to spend eternity tinkering with that clock? Man, sucks to be him.

Third, still not getting why this is happening. The house is lonely? Here's a hint: Don't terrorize people, and people will live there.

Edited October 17, 2018 by rainsmom

[Cardie]

2 hours ago, rainsmom said:

Second, who the hell is the clock ghost? Why would he be in the house?

By the logic of the show, he must have died there while fixing the clock. The house also seems to be an obsessive host. Once you've lived there, it wants you there forever. I admit that scaring the bejeepers out of tenants is not the best way to keep them there long term. Plus, the house prefers dead inhabitants to live ones so is literally trying to scare everyone to death.

I too wondered if Hugh went to jail, say for manslaughter. But he may have felt that staying away from the kids was the best way to keep the knowledge of what their mother did hidden from them.

[hiccup]

I just finished and I didn't like the ending, other than Luke being ok and Steve getting back together with his wife. The whole series to me was creepy, but I only had a couple jump scares. Also, I kept trying to inject logic into what was happening and that is a mistake when I should just be enjoying a ghost story. I kept thinking that the black mold in the house made everyone crazy and have hallucinations. 

Like others mentioned, I too wonder what happened with the dad not raising his kids. I just assumed he had been in prison for his wife's death because he didn't want the kids to know what happened, but they never answered that question.

Oh and I have another question that was probably answered and I can't remember. Why did the Dudley's stay as caretakers of the house after the Hills died? They had been there for years before the Cranes moved in, but did they ever answer why they were there? And why didn't they warn the Cranes before moving in? I assume that if they did warn them, Hugh wouldn't have believed it, but I still would have liked to know that the Dudleys at least tried to warn them. 

Overall, I liked the series, but the ending was a disappointment, so I don't really need or want another season. 

[Megan]

Well that was a disappointment. The ending was super cheesy and toothless. Just a  bunch of BS blah blah love, we'll always be together in our hearts blah blah.

The Dudley's are really going to spend eternity with Poppy and Olivia, the murderers of their kid?

You get to choose what age you are as a ghost?

 

ETA:

The more I think about it, the more Abigail's murder upsets me. She was this poor isolated trusting little girl who was fed rat poison the first time she was able to interact with people outside her parents. It's horrifying. Her death is brushed off and made more about how Olivia was suffering. 

Yes, her parents covered up for her murder because they wanted to protect the house in order to spend eternity with her. Though it seemed like it was perfectly fine/not that big of a deal that that eternity was with Abigail being dead and still in the Dudley's grasp. She even has to be around her murderers forever. She never got to experience anything of life.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Megan

[Slovenly Muse]

I don't quite know how to express my profound disappointment with this episode.

I will say, the reveal that I DID like was the revisiting of Theo's experience in her dance studio. I figured, after Hugh said in a previous episode that "there was no treehouse," that all the kids had been in the Red Room unknowingly, each seeing it as their own personal sanctuary. (Nell's toy room and Stephen's games room were described as "up" and the treehouse requires climbing, so that tracked, and from there the link to Olivia's reading room was plain as day), but I dismissed Theo's dance studio as being the Red Room simply because of her experience with the rattling door. If the house were trying to eat the children, it would make them feel safe and at peace in the room, untroubled by manifestations, and inclined to stay. Learning that it was Shirley and Nell trying to get into the Red Room, HUMAN actors breaking through the house's spell on Theo, really satisfied me. And that was about the only thing in this episode that did.

In general, what the series really did too much of, was showing us the spooks. In the beginning, they crafted such interesting ambiguous creep-outs, like the kids maybe imagining things or maybe seeing things. By the end, the ghosts had names and motivations and you could have conversations with them... and we completely lost the sense that the house itself was a malevolent entity.

On 10/15/2018 at 12:10 PM, Whimsy said:

What I got from the episodes was that she had a history of blinding headaches/migraines that got progressively worse at the Hill House.  They (Hugh & Olivia) thought the headaches and lack of sleep from them were what were causing her "issues", but really she was being driven insane by Poppy's ghost. 

This is why I think it was a mistake to introduce us to Poppy so clearly. WAS it Poppy's ghost that drove Olivia insane? Or was it Hill House? WAS Poppy's ghost the malevolent entity in Hill House, that lured everyone into the Red Room so they could be eaten? Was she the one "eating" them? Or was she just a victim of the house (a particularly easy one because of her insanity) who now works on its behalf? Why was she presented as a malevolent actor who could be negotiated with or stood up to, when the original idea was that the house is a presence in and of itself that makes you not SEE that you need to resist it? How do we reconcile friendly ghosts like Olivia and Nell who seem sane and sensible, who protect their loved ones and can be reasoned with and have some power within the house (like the power to open the red door or disrupt its illusions), with the terrifying manifestations that attack children in the basement? If the house tricks people by showing them visions of people they want to see saying things they want to hear, then why do ghosts Olivia and Nell seem to be their real selves acting in accordance with their own real will, rather than puppets of the house that tricked and consumed them? I'm just saying, if Olivia couldn't be reasoned out of murdering her children when she was alive, how is the ghost version of her, that is used to trick and manipulate others on the house's behalf, MORE susceptible to logic and negotiation? This is such a massive de-escalation of the situation that it feels shallow and doesn't track logically with what we've previously seen. And if the spirits are trapped in the house, and you have to be near the house to be near your loved ones, then why and how were ghastly visions of Nell and Olivia haunting their family at the cemetery and funeral home? To quote 30 Rock's God Cop, "I don't understand the rules of this!" And furthermore, why introduce the idea that Olivia was the SOURCE of manifestations (like the rain of stones), and that Nell IS a terrifying spirit haunting the house even back in time, if you're going to dismiss the idea and say, no, that doesn't mean anything, it's really all this flapper ghost. Taking something interesting and revising it into nonsense.

The other thing they tipped their hand with was the "hidden ghosts" within the episodes. The show's twitter feed has pointed out a few... They're places where ghostly faces or figures can be seen in the background or shadows of certain shots. However, some were just a bit TOO obvious, and once you know to look for them, they're not very effective. I really found, when I noticed a few, that they don't actually look like ghostly presences watching the family from the shadows. They look like extras in white makeup trying to stand VERY still during a whole scene. If they appeared or disappeared between shots, that would have been cool. But they didn't.

It also gave the impression that Hill House was stuffed full of spooks. I said out loud as Stephen began his closing narration, once again bastardizing Jackson's words for no good reason, "If they try to say that 'whatever walks there walks alone' after demonstrating just how many different freaking things are walking there, I will break something." And then they said something so, so much worse. Really an unforgivable erasure of Jackson from what is supposed to be an adaptation of her story.

And I predicted from Episode 1 that the gender politics were going to be an issue. Why is it that STEPHEN, who treated his wife in an absolutely monstrous way (Imaginary Leigh was right on the money when she said he didn't see her. He robbed her of the ability to have children by lying for years while she ran out the clock on her own fertility. No one could do that to someone they truly loved and respected.) and does not deserve our sympathy as a POV character, gets let in on ALL the family secrets of Hill House, when he is arguably the one least affected by it? Don't the people who saw the most in Hill House, who have carried that trauma with them throughout their lives, deserve to get answers and closure about what happened to their mother and why that house is still standing? How dare Mike Flanagan take a story by Shirley Jackson (whose works typically feature women being controlled "for their own good," finding (often disturbing) ways of empowering themselves) and end it with two men deciding to keep secrets from the female protagonists in order to "protect" them. Appalling.

I made a comparison in the Episode 1 thread to Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein," and I stand by it. Basically, I am super done with male filmmakers deciding to adapt famous works by female writers, while re-writing them to exclude the female point of view that made the work so compelling in the first place. Ken Brannagh, Danny Boyle, and whoever directed the Karloff films did it to "Frankenstein," and Flanagan and every other prospective adapter except Robert Wise did it to "Hill House." Listen, fellas. You do not have to piss all over things you WISH you had created in order to claim them as your own, or to teach the woman who wrote it how it SHOULD have been done. How about you either come up with your own ideas, or stick to adaptations of works you actually understand.

I don't regret watching the series, but the lasting impression I will have looking back on it is bitter, affronted anger. This episode was hot garbage, and it ruined the things the show actually was doing well. So incredibly disappointing.

[Kostgard]

I too enjoyed this series up until the end. They should have titled this last episode "Everybody Gets a Monologue!" But they left me with so many questions. 

3 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

To quote 30 Rock's God Cop, "I don't understand the rules of this!"

Yes. This.

 

Okay, I liked the relationship between the siblings. Well done. I like that this was really about how this family went through a horrifying/tragic event, the ripple effects of it, and how they each dealt with it (Steve distancing himself by fictionalizing it. Shirley by being a control freak and facing death head on by becoming a mortician. Theo by drinking and being bitter and sarcastic, but also going into a field where she can help traumatized children, Luke with his addictions, and Nell with her sleep paralysis). Also a good story about how a parental urge to protect your children can do more harm than good (Hugh keeping the truth from this kids, Olivia trying to keep the big bad world from hurting her kids by trying to keep them out of the outside world). But at the end, things get really muddy.

I too am left wondering "Was the house evil? Or was it all Poppy?" Did Poppy make Olivia crazy, or did she just bring it out? With the rainstorm of rocks, they made it seem like Olivia is the one with all the supernatural powers, but then...was this all her, or the house? Or Poppy? It seemed Olivia lured Nell home, and was the one who tipped her off the staircase. But then Poppy was the one who knocked out the other kids. Was Poppy helping Olivia? Helping the house? Or doing it just for kicks?

Then towards the end, they made it seem that perhaps a lot of the hauntings outside of the house were really just manifestations of their issues. I can see that making sense with Luke seeing the man with the hat all over the place. I could see someone being "haunted" by something that terrified him as a child, but the ghost actually isn't there. But then, what about the shared visions - when both Theo and Hugh saw Olivia with the destroyed model house? What about when both Theo and Shirley heard Olivia banging on the door and windows and then showing up in the car when they were arguing? Was THAT real, because Olivia had the ability to follow people out of the house, just like she could make it rain stones? Or was it somehow Theo since she was present in both incidents? Why was poor Nell haunted by the image of her own dead self throughout her life (the scene where she died and "fell" through all the moments where she haunted herself was both terrifying and heartbreaking)? Was that Olivia doing that? The house? Poppy? Why Nell over the other kids? And the fact that the guy Shirley kept seeing was not a ghost but just a hallucination of a dude she had a one night stand with caused by her guilt was really sort of lame.

Then it seems that Poppy is the only "bad" ghost, after the family had been terrified by several ghosts. But then at the end it seems that they mostly just hang out in the house. The scary-looking old lady was just an old lady, who warned Olivia about Poppy, so...helpful? The man with the hat just wanted his hat and to get a look at people. So, who attacked Luke when he went down the dumbwaiter? Did he really just rip his shirt on an object like Hugh suggested? Was it Poppy? The house?

The Dudleys really took their daughter's death in stride. It was all, "Hey, sorry my wife went nuts and killed the child you were so terrified of losing you barely let her out of the house." "Oh, no problem. We'll just bury her in the yard somewhere. Just keep the house open so we can come visit her ghost and we'll be square." I can see them eventually getting there, but not within 90 seconds of discovering her dead body.

Then the fact that the Dudleys came to visit their ghost daughter through the years brings up another question - does that mean the Crains can just go visit their parents and sister whenever they want? If people can come into the house and interact with the ghosts, then why do people have to die in order to "stay in the house or stay together? Just live in the house until you die and then carrying on as ghosts. 

Theo chucks her gloves at the end. Did she lose her "powers" or did she decide that she's cool with picking up all that stuff from people? Because even if you are in a good place psychologically-speaking, that can still be really overwhelming.

Finally, I guessed that Hugh was dead from the moment he got the door to the Room of Requirement open. The fact that he turned into his younger self confirmed that. But..,was there a body somewhere? Did they actually do anything with it?

 

Ugh. Good series that didn't stick the landing and left too many questions and inconsistencies.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Kostgard

[Slovenly Muse]

Thank goodness this is bothering you, too! My rant was so long, I didn't want to get even more bogged down, but yeah, this stuff just doesn't track:

5 hours ago, Kostgard said:

they made it seem that perhaps a lot of the hauntings outside of the house were really just manifestations of their issues. I can see that making sense with Luke seeing the man with the hat all over the place. I could see someone being "haunted" by something that terrified him as a child, but the ghost actually isn't there. But then, what about the shared visions

Completely! And Hugh specifically told Stephen that he has a version of Olivia with him at all times, as a coping mechanism that many widows/widowers experience and is normal, but that the things he (Stephen) was seeing were NOT that. Meaning the show deliberately distinguishes between "real" hauntings and metaphorical ones. But then how do we square ghost Olivia's accusation that Hugh never comes to visit (preferring the fake version of her he imagines), with the manifestations of her that appeared to the siblings and smashed Shirley's "Forever Home" model? If she can't leave the house, and is dependent on him coming to her, AND the visions of her we've seen outside the house are definitely not just hallucinations, then where does that leave us?

5 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Why was poor Nell haunted by the image of her own dead self throughout her life?

And furthermore, if time is not linear but rather "like confetti" falling all around us, and Nell is able to haunt herself BEFORE she actually died (showing Flanagan's penchant for playing with time) (and I've also seen some speculation elsewhere that sometimes, when Luke saw Abigail, he may have been seeing her ghost haunting the past before she died - I don't know if that is supported), then why don't we see apparitions now of people who WILL die in the house in the future? Like Mrs. Dudley, and presumably her husband? Or is that just specific to Nell?

5 hours ago, Kostgard said:

And the fact that the guy Shirley kept seeing was not a ghost but just a hallucination of a dude she had a one night stand with caused by her guilt was really sort of lame.

SO! MUCH! THIS! Aside from the fact that Leigh was willing to hear Stephen out and maybe reconcile (which was maddening, like the writers didn't understand how deeply he had betrayed her), this drove me bonkers. "Honey, there's something absolutely awful I have to tell you, and I'm terrified to do it, but will anyway. Is it that the house I grew up in was for-real haunted and killed a good chunk of my family and tried to kill me too, and the ghost of my dead sister saved my life, and I'm afraid you'll think I'm crazy?... No, it's that I cheated on you one time, and WHAT COULD BE HARDER TO UNDERSTAND THAN THAT?!"

Boo.

5 hours ago, Kostgard said:

If people can come into the house and interact with the ghosts, then why do people have to die in order to "stay in the house or stay together? Just live in the house until you die and then carrying on as ghosts. 

Ah, but here's where you're wrong! It's all been cunningly crafted, you see. If you LIVE in the house, and stay there after dark, then it will be able to work its terrible will on you, and manipulate you into doing something unthinkable, like killing yourself and/or your children so that you can be together forever, and that will turn out to actually work well for you and have been the right decision and why didn't you listen to the house sooner it only had your best interests at heart!

5 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Finally, I guessed that Hugh was dead from the moment he got the door to the Room of Requirement open. The fact that he turned into his younger self confirmed that. But..,was there a body somewhere? Did they actually do anything with it?

Yeah, with this one there actually was a body. But it was still pretty ambiguous. Hugh told Olivia's ghost that he would make her a promise if she let the kids go (which is ridiculous: if she doesn't, they will all die in the room, and she can kill Hugh right then and there and have them all - she's already "won" and there is no incentive to stop), then she opened the door and Hugh helped Luke and the others out and down to the car, then came back with Stephen to show him the whole story of Olivia's death. The flashback sequence ends with Stephen and Hugh standing at the top of the spiral staircase, and Hugh looks down to see his body lying at his feet on the platform with the empty pill bottle beside him (his heart medication). Then he turns young and goes into the Red Room. It is NOT clear when he died, and as far as I can recall there was no explanation of what was done with the body. The Dudley's were able to touch and hug the ghost of Abigail, so maybe Hugh killed himself on the spot to convince Olivia, and it was his ghost that helped Luke down to the car. (But then how did he leave the house? The door has been suggested visually as a barrier between what is IN the house and what is not, so how did he cross it when no other ghost does?) Otherwise he kept Stephen back to tell him about Olivia's death and to help/watch Hugh kill himself, which REALLY would require more exploration than we saw. So I don't know what to make of that scene either. Maybe a viewer who wasn't cursing the TV for most of the episode caught more details than me and could fill this in.

And can I just say, the idea that the house is some sort of supernatural vending machine where you put in your life and it instantly cranks out your ghost, is laughable. Seeing SO MANY people die and then just instantly appear as ghosts over their bodies, looking and sounding and BEING exactly like they were in life, is not the way effective ghost stories are told. The horror comes from the creeping energy of a life that barely remembers what it was, assembling itself into a twisted facsimile of its living self, and manifesting in ways it's former self would find abhorrent... THAT'S the way ghost stories are told in the horror genre. This insta-ghost, happily-ever-after technique? Is straight out of a supernatural comedy.

In summation: Boo.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Slovenly Muse
NERD RAGE!

[BeeBop88]

I liked every episode except this last one. That seems to be the way it goes with me. I really like the show, enjoy the episodes, then the last one is just so lame. I just knew Annabelle was the Dudley kid. Especially when young Luke tells his mom that Annabelle's parents don't let her out of the house very often, but she sneaks out.  And before hand, Mrs. Dudley rather admitted to Olivia that she was a helicopter parent  to her child and she was saying the world is a bad place, and feeling the need to protect her child from it. 

But why did their Dad go back into the red room at the end? Did he feel he was dying and wanted to spend his dead life with Oliva and Nell?

And what are they gonna do about a 2nd season, when everything was kinda wrapped up in the 10th episode.  Is there gonna be a new family that will go through experiences with Hill House? Makes me think they never thought about doing a 2nd season.

Edited October 21, 2018 by BeeBop88

[Anela]

Okay, I cried over that baby girl, dead in the room, and I knew that the dad killed himself. It's nice to see people reunited, but I'm pissed that they suddenly decided the house was fine, since people could just be together forever. The house was supposed to be evil, so WTF to family reunions there - I would want to find a way to free everyone. 

I don't understand Theo suddenly discarding her gloves. Did her ability disappear? It was really there, she experienced things, so why everything suddenly like one of those commercials where the sun is shining, and people are smiling, as someone is saying really fast, that one of the possible side effects of a medication is "death"? Or something worse than what you currently deal with.

"This is yours now". Gee, thanks dad. Huge, evil house belongs to him now. Nothing to worry about there. He saw actual ghosts, so I don't understand his monologue about guilt and fear. I will not miss the monologues at all - someone needs to tell the people of Hollywood, that consecutive episodes of everyone getting speeches, can be really annoying after a while. 

So I enjoyed most of it, but there always seems to be a let-down when it comes to shows like this. I didn't want everyone to die, but something more than a Hallmark ending, would have been better. Steven's newfound humility was the best thing about it. 

[Keywestclubkid]

5 minutes ago, Anela said:

 

I don't understand Theo suddenly discarding her gloves. Did her ability disappear?

My understanding is she accepted it and decided not to hide from it or "mute" it like her mother did.... I mean she saw what not living your life to the fullest and accepting all of you and hiding parts of ones self did to her..

[Anela]

10 hours ago, BeeBop88 said:

I liked every episode except this last one. That seems to be the way it goes with me. I really like the show, enjoy the episodes, then the last one is just so lame. I just knew Annabelle was the Dudley kid. Especially when young Luke tells his mom that Annabelle's parents don't let her out of the house very often, but she sneaks out.  And before hand, Mrs. Dudley rather admitted to Olivia that she was a helicopter parent  to her child and she was saying the world is a bad place, and feeling the need to protect her child from it. 

But why did their Dad go back into the red room at the end? Did he feel he was dying and wanted to spend his dead life with Oliva and Nell?

And what are they gonna do about a 2nd season, when everything was kinda wrapped up in the 10th episode.  Is there gonna be a new family that will go through experiences with Hill House? Makes me think they never thought about doing a 2nd season.

I hope there isn't a season two. There would be no point. I hate to see things dragged out, because they were popular. 

23 minutes ago, Keywestclubkid said:

My understanding is she accepted it and decided not to hide from it or "mute" it like her mother did.... I mean she saw what not living your life to the fullest and accepting all of you and hiding parts of ones self did to her..

Thanks. I can't imagine walking around and picking all kinds of things up from places or people, though. I hope she's still careful. 

[Keywestclubkid]

13 minutes ago, Anela said:

 

Thanks. I can't imagine walking around and picking all kinds of things up from places or people, though. I hope she's still careful. 

yea i didn't really get how her "power" worked really. when you get to the last episode and think about everything lots of holes pop up lol

[Mabinogia]

43 minutes ago, Anela said:

I hope there isn't a season two. There would be no point.

The only way I would want a season two is if they go back, not forward. I want an origin story. How did the house get that way? What was it like before it was full of ghosts, when it got it's first ghosts. I don't care to see this family ever again, even though I found them incredibly fascinating, I just feel their story is over. But I still have a lot of questions about the house. 

[Keywestclubkid]

52 minutes ago, Anela said:

I hope there isn't a season two. There would be no point. I hate to see things dragged out, because they were popular. 

 

Yea i think if there is a season 2 I hope it doesn't follow this family again..... i got kinda tired of This is us with a non evil haunted house lol .... IF they do go ahead with one please make the house at least have a point and end game of why it is the way it is... I love the whole well it eats the family and they never escape the house ...well if the house lets you live your full life aka the Dudley's and visit every day and die of old age then reunite and be happy with the people that died in the house how freakin evil was that house in the first place?  they really dropped the ball with this ending

[lightninggirl]

On 10/19/2018 at 11:25 PM, Slovenly Muse said:

 << ON 10/19/2018 AT 6:22 PM, KOSTGARD SAID:

And the fact that the guy Shirley kept seeing was not a ghost but just a hallucination of a dude she had a one night stand with caused by her guilt was really sort of lame. >>

SO! MUCH! THIS! Aside from the fact that Leigh was willing to hear Stephen out and maybe reconcile (which was maddening, like the writers didn't understand how deeply he had betrayed her), this drove me bonkers. "Honey, there's something absolutely awful I have to tell you, and I'm terrified to do it, but will anyway. Is it that the house I grew up in was for-real haunted and killed a good chunk of my family and tried to kill me too, and the ghost of my dead sister saved my life, and I'm afraid you'll think I'm crazy?... No, it's that I cheated on you one time, and WHAT COULD BE HARDER TO UNDERSTAND THAN THAT?!"

Boo.

I absolutely hated Shirl from the first episode, and this was SO goddamned fitting. Her idiot monologue prepping her husband (and him holding her hand, like he's automatically going to forgive her even though she's about to confess a murder or something) was ridiculous. I understand the guilt propelling her self-righteousness, but the guy wasn't even a ghost. It took me a few episodes to realize that it wasn't her brother Steven toasting her because the actor was so nondescript. I also know that people have affairs/one-night stands for tons of different reasons, but we weren't really given a reason for Shirl's 'drifting away' from Kevin. What would've made more sense was if A.) she'd playfully pushed the affair dude into the street/out a window and accidentally caused his death (or maybe he died in bed), or B.) she felt so betrayed by Kevin taking the money from Steven and creating his own private checking account with it that she stepped out on him. But the one-nighter happened six years prior, so it's not really linked to anything - not even linked to the events at the house, like everyone else's issues. Shirl was just annoying and was basically served the HBIC role without really delving into how the house had affected her, I felt. I can't stand Elizabeth Reaser in the first place and this just solidified my irrational hatred of her. 

[patty1h]

I watched the whole series and I find the reason that Nell killed herself is murky (other than to drive the rest of the story). Was it because her husband died or was it the house? She seemed happy when she was with Arthur - not that traumatized by what happened in HH.  But after he died, suddenly she's inexplicably drawn back to the house, where the flapper ghost goads her into suicide.  I know she had some sessions with Arthur about her sleep paralysis, but did she link it to the events in HH?    Am I forgetting a key scene where Nell expresses that the house has a hold on her?

[Mabinogia]

I think Nell saw Arthur has her saviour/only hope/the one thing that was keeping her sane. When she lost him I think she just gave up. I don't think it was the house, but her inherited issues that made her believe the house did this, that the house was always going to find a way to destroy her happiness. It could also be that she went back to her mommy, so she wouldn't die alone or something, but that's not the impression I got. From her call to her siblings and her father, I got the impression she had given up and was headed there to die. Possibly she knew if she went there she'd be ghosted and get to stay with her mom? IDK That is the part of the show I hated, that they get to all just hang out together for eternity, so I try not to think about it. 

[Slovenly Muse]

1 hour ago, patty1h said:

I watched the whole series and I find the reason that Nell killed herself is murky (other than to drive the rest of the story). Was it because her husband died or was it the house? She seemed happy when she was with Arthur - not that traumatized by what happened in HH.  But after he died, suddenly she's inexplicably drawn back to the house, where the flapper ghost goads her into suicide.  I know she had some sessions with Arthur about her sleep paralysis, but did she link it to the events in HH?    Am I forgetting a key scene where Nell expresses that the house has a hold on her?

I think the hold the house had over her was The Bent-Neck Lady. It haunted her after she moved out of the house, and she believed TBNL killed Arthur. Her doctor suggested to her that she put too much power into her memories and thoughts about the house, and that it was probably now just an old carcass in the woods, and TBNL was just a hallucination (I don't think he meant for her to really go back, but he hadn't meant for her to really confront Stephen the way she did at his book signing either - she was a little... "scattered" from being haunted and not believed and off her meds, and didn't always take the right message away from her sessions). She went back to see if it really WAS an old carcass, if The Bent-Neck Lady was really just a nightmare brought on by sleep paralysis, and once the house had her back in it's grip, it killed her. (At no point did she make the decision to end her own life, so I maintain that the house killed her, and not that she killed herself.)

Basically, in order to have any kind of life after Arthur died, she needed to know whether she was haunted (as she believed), or insane (as everyone told her), and going back to the house really was the only way to know for sure.

10 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I don't think it was the house, but her inherited issues that made her believe the house did this, that the house was always going to find a way to destroy her happiness.

What "inherited issues" do you mean? I wondered if Stephen's talk about mental illness had some basis in reality, but since everything that happened at the house has turned out to be real (or not shown to be untrue), I'm not sure that mental instability had any sort of role to play, and wasn't just a red herring. The only thing I think we know that Olivia's kids inherited from her was a sensitivity to the supernatural, and even then, I'm not sure that was a factor in what happened, because it sounds like the Dudleys had similar experiences, and they were never shown to be sensitive. I really wish the show had clarified this a little more, or not started down roads they weren't prepared to explore.

[Mabinogia]

3 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

What "inherited issues" do you mean?

I think that a slight mental illness was real (I don't think they were nuts, but they weren't completely stable. Both mother and father seemed mentally off to me from the start), as was the "sensitivity" and these are what made the family so susceptible to the house.

I don't think it was an either or situation. It wasn't "if they house really is haunted then the family are mentally stable" or "if the family are mentally unstable then the house isn't haunted" I think it was more a situation of adding fuel to a fire. The house is haunted and having an unstable family move in woke it up in a way that having a normal, healthy family move in wouldn't have, not to the level this family did. The Craine's were a psychic filet mignon where the Jones' would have been flank steak to the house. 

[patty1h]

Thanks to @Mabinogia and @Slovenly Muse for clarifying Nell's motivations.  I  watched those scenes with the doctor and Nell and their conversations about HH, but I guess I wasn't absorbing all of the details.   

[Kostgard]

5 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Basically, in order to have any kind of life after Arthur died, she needed to know whether she was haunted (as she believed), or insane (as everyone told her), and going back to the house really was the only way to know for sure.

I thought this was her motivation as well. After believing the Bent-Neck Lady killed her husband, she needed to know once and for all.

But again, I don’t know if the house killed her or if Olivia did. Olivia wanted to keep her children safe and near her forever, which is why she was going to kill them with the poisoned tea party before Hugh interrupted. Then we saw Olivia give Nell the (supernatural) push off the staircase. Or...was it the house working through Olivia?

I also don’t understand how Nell was really the most affected by all this in life (the most haunted, the one who “disappears” and her family doesn’t see her, the one pulled back to the house), yet in death, she seemed the least in the house’s thrall. She kept telling Luke “Don’t” and “Go” - clearly aware of what is happening and trying to save him (she did it both at the grave when Olivia tried to drag him down and at the tea party adult Luke found in the house) and again shown in her speech to her siblings.

[Slovenly Muse]

4 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I don't think it was an either or situation. It wasn't "if they house really is haunted then the family are mentally stable" or "if the family are mentally unstable then the house isn't haunted" I think it was more a situation of adding fuel to a fire. The house is haunted and having an unstable family move in woke it up in a way that having a normal, healthy family move in wouldn't have, not to the level this family did. The Craine's were a psychic filet mignon where the Jones' would have been flank steak to the house. 

I see what you mean, and you're right. It could be both. I'm just not sure that any behaviour we saw as being "off" didn't end up getting explained by true experiences. All of Olivia's erratic behaviour (blackouts, fugue states, talking to no one, drawing the "Forever Home" in the blueprints) was explained by Poppy haunting her and manipulating her experiences. Luke's imaginary friends turned out to be real. The Bent-Neck Lady haunting Nell turned out to not be just sleep paralysis, but the actual ghost of future Nell. Theo's sensitivity and psychic impressions are true and reliable enough that she can use it to solve crimes. Shirley and Stephen were in denial about things they saw and experienced, but they really did happen. The only thing that MAY have been just in someone's head was the bowler hat man haunting Luke as an adult. It could have been real, or it could have been PTSD from seeing the bowler hat man (who is real) as a child. But if it's PTSD, it's from a real experience, not an inherited condition. Even Mr. Dudley said that Olivia's behaviour was very reminiscent of what his own mother had gone through after spending too much time in the house, meaning that the symptoms are not unique to the family.

I feel like the "mental illness" idea was floated by Stephen to explain everyone's ongoing issues (not damaged from the house, but "ill"), but I'm not sure we really saw any evidence that it was a factor. (I wish we had, though, because that is a GREAT concept for a horror story. A schizophrenic in a haunted house who can't tell what's real? Yes, please! I would watch that Mr. Robot/Hill House crossover FOR SURE!)

[leighdear]

Christ on a cracker, if somebody said the damn phrase "keep my child(ren) safe" just ONE more time, I was going to throw something!  

Seriously, I think that was the most overused phrase in the whole series. 

And a serious eye-roll to the final scene where Luke is 2 years sober, Steve & Leigh are back together and she's pregnant, and of course all is serene with Shirl & Kevin.  I'm sure and Theo and Trish adopted a handicapped Chinese baby and Kevin & Shirl's kids both got straight A's.  

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, leighdear said:

Christ on a cracker, if somebody said the damn phrase "keep my child(ren) safe" just ONE more time, I was going to throw something!  

And yet, no one really did much to actually keep their children safe. 

[Soobs]

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

 Both mother and father seemed mentally off to me from the start

Thinking that you can uproot your five young children to stay in a giant, old house that would require a lot of specialists and conservators to fix and you can flip it in eight weeks or so is totally nuts. I was side eyeing the parents mental state from the first episode. The ghosts in the house were right. These people were living in a dream.

I think this show would have benefited from having less episodes. There was a lot of scenes that didn't need to be there. But I really did like it overall. I actually screamed at one point and scared my husband who was in another room! It was also very sad and since I binged watched it, it made me a little depressed. My favorite parts were Nell's haunting of herself and the red room transforming for whoever was in it. The tall man was pretty freaky too. Had to fast forward through the kitten parts. I just can't watch things where animals are hurt.

[BeeBop88]

I have a question.  When Oliva slipped from reality into insanity, was that something the house did to her, or was that something that was gonna happen to her regardless?  I am leaning that she was going to go insane no matter what, but the house aggravated her mental illness and progressed it further than maybe it would have gone.

Remember that Nell had a mental issue that led to her suicide.  And even though she committed suicide inside of the house, her mental issues were going on way beyond her years of living there.  Her family just did not want to deal with it.

Edited October 22, 2018 by BeeBop88

[Cheezwiz]

Enjoyed the show overall, but waaaay too much speechifying in the final episode. Timothy Hutton was great, and I wish he'd been used a bit more in the show.

The series was entertaining, but didn't stick the ending. The final episode made the scary malevolent house seem not scary at all, which didn't work for me. This show really was "This Is Us" with some spooks and jump scares thrown in.

I definitely don't want a Season 2 - unless they find a good way to present the house's back-story.

[Rap541]

19 hours ago, BeeBop88 said:

I have a question.  When Oliva slipped from reality into insanity, was that something the house did to her, or was that something that was gonna happen to her regardless?  I am leaning that she was going to go insane no matter what, but the house aggravated her mental illness and progressed it further than maybe it would have gone.

Naw, I think the house certainly exacerbated her anxiety and  migraines but I don't think she would have fed her children and the neighbor kid poison tea without an outside influence. Likewise, Nell and Luke were probably high strung kids before but probably wouldn't have been such basket cases without the house. Nell in particular being haunted by the Bent Neck Lady had a huge life long trigger for her mental illness that was only there because of the house. 

That said, the family's weird denial also didn't help any of them.

[Dobian]

On 10/15/2018 at 11:25 AM, jmonique said:

I really hope it doesn't get a second season, to be honest. This needs to be one of those one-and-done shows. I can't see any reason to come back to this unless, as was mentioned by someone else, it's a prequel.

Yes, the Cranes' story is done.  Any attempt to bring these characters back would ruin it.  So I guess season 2 would be a prequel then, but could that story be a match for this one?  Obviously that story was a lot of unresolved mess and some pure evil thrown in.

I was really satisfied with the ending of this one though, they really brought closure to all the characters.  I liked how it was Nell who saved her siblings from themselves while her dad saved them from their lonely and overprotective dead mother.  What made the story work was that this family was really haunting itself, the house was just the catalyst.

[MissL]

Huh. So that happened. Now I wish I had watched the last 2 episodes last night I would have slept better. No longer scared of the house or the show. 

 

That was was really disappointing. They just walked out? No screaming panic drive away from a house that doesn't want to let them go? 

Only interesting part was Nelle's disjointed speech which became the answer to all of her siblings apologies and further demonstrating her "time isn't linear" thing. Otherwise meh. 

[Dobian]

I guess it comes down to the ending you wanted.  Did you want a happy ending of redemption or a tragic ending of horror and loss.  There are pros and cons for each one.

[Rap541]

I'm ok with Hugh saving the kids, it just felt like "lets wrap this up with Dad saving the family because there's no place else to go". I would have liked it set up better. 

I also wish significant plot points hadn't hinged on no one ever being willing to address with Steve how his depiction of the house in the book clearly differed from theirs on significant points like HOW THERE WAS NO TREE HOUSE. I mean, various siblings and Dad knew Steve was wrong on significant points and never ever pointed those points out until frankly when it was too late to save Nell.

[Lamima]

Didn't like the Abby and her parents (the caretakers) bit in the end. Didn't add up. They seemed way too pleased to get a ghost daughter. And the very end with him bringing her to the house to die and they show the happy family of 3 at the end...too silly and way too rosey for the rest of the series (where bent neck girl killed Nell's husband). That little happy family picture was too Beetlejuice for me. Not a fit.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Lamima