S03.E04: The Snowplow

[snowwhyte]

I keep thinking that although they are all showing personal growth none of them is likely to get into The Good Place. Don't you have to do something extraordinary to earn enough points to go to the Good Place? Is that just a lie Michael told as part of his Good Place con? They may be learning about philosophy but how much are they doing to benefit other people?

[Affogato]

25 minutes ago, snowwhyte said:

I keep thinking that although they are all showing personal growth none of them is likely to get into The Good Place. Don't you have to do something extraordinary to earn enough points to go to the Good Place? Is that just a lie Michael told as part of his Good Place con? They may be learning about philosophy but how much are they doing to benefit other people?

Well, they aren't getting into the good place if they keep lying about their gaseous emissions and going to see the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I don't know how anyone gets into the good place. Maybe they cheat.

[possibilities]

I saw Kristen do an interview on one of the late night talk shows, where she claimed that she farts on airplanes and blames it on Dax (her husband, for those who don't know). I kept thinking about that interview while watching this episode.

[Mockingbird]

Oh, I have no issues understanding Michael’s motivation. We saw he was willing to sacrifice himself to save Eleanor last season. We know he sees a lot of himself in her. And I’ve been totally on board with the idea that they’re platonic soulmates since mid-season two. Michael’s redemption arc is entirely dependent upon Eleanor’s faith in him. Her attempts to become better and her friendship subsequently make him better. Michael and Janet have nothing left in any world now but these four humans. Why not do everything in their power to ensure that the people they love are saved from enternal torture before Gen figures out how to catch them? 

[KingOfHearts]

This show continues to fascinate me because it can take new directions without losing its heart. Being on earth might not be as "fun", but it's still something worthy to explore temporarily. The show has to have places to go, obviously. A slightly more grounded setting is new for it. One thing it does is it gives viewers a renewed appreciation for the original status quo. So when we do get back to the afterlife, it'll be exciting. That being said, I do believe the show is doing a good job of keeping it quirky despite the added realism. Janet's all-seeing knowledge and Tahani's zealously extravagant lifestyle are hilarious. If I've learned anything by watching The Good Place, it's that the writers don't get too comfortable for long. If you don't like the earth stuff, it will undoubtedly change soon and you'll have something to look forward to.

I've seen other shows falter or meander, but I still feel strongly that the writers still know what they're doing and where they want to go. They're not at a point yet where they're desperate to fill time or throw random crap at the wall.

Edited October 13, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Ilovepie]

For me this show has never been a ha ha kind of show - it’s smart subtle humor you have to look for (fart jokes aside). I like all the characters and the creative plots, so even if I haven’t enjoyed this earth plot too much, I figure it’s going somewhere else in pretty short order, as evidenced by the last few seconds of this episode.

[bros402]

20 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

This got me thinking because if there are demons, there should be angels too, right? But I don't think we've heard a word about then, yet. This could be a future twist or something.

I wasn't feeling Janet this season because she's too human now, imo: I liked how unusual her reactions used to be. But I loved here the way she was trying to help other people.

Tahani's "Best luck next time" because Elinor had only won 18.000 $ had me rolling. 

But I guess I like this show better when the supernatural parts are going strong because  I was exremely glad when the Brainy Bunch saw The Door at the end of the episode. Can't wait to see what happens now! 

I believe we saw a female representative of the good place in Mindy St. Clair's orientation video - we saw Trevor and a woman

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I still enjoy watching the show and find it hilariously entertaining. Although part of me felt like we missed out on a lot by fast forwarding so much in this episode, I get why they did it.

One thing I really liked in this episode is that normally Janet goes about doing whatever is requested of her cheerfully and without question, but this time she was the one who tried to stop Michael from continuing to meddle in Team Cockroach's lives. While I totally appreciate that his motives have changed from not getting fired to genuinely caring about Eleanor, Chidi, Tahani, and Jason, he is still micromanaging and thinks that anything can be fixed if he just tinkers enough. Heh, and Janet tried to stop Michael from using his terrible Australian accent so she really is trying to help.

Blake Beartles!

[LadyAmalthea]

“Binky” is not a word generally used in Australia - Simone should have said Eleanor needed her dummy, or “chuck a tanty” if they wanted to go full Aussie slang. Minor inconsistencies, but with this show you do have to wonder...like Chidi with the socket wrench and lost time in the previous episode, which felt like a clue to set up a later reveal. 

That said I do really like Simone (and the accent has improved slightly) so hope she’s not a demon - angel or infiltrator from the real Good Place would be interesting. 

[Notwisconsin]

I felt that this was treading water and that the writing staff had realized that the direction the plot was going wasn't going anywhere and they just wanted to escape having to do the philosophy stuff over again. I didn't really like the episode all that much.....

[dusang]

Manny Jacinto is in Bad Times at the El Royale with Larry's brother?!?! Please let this lead to the most amazing family cameo in television history!!!

[Milburn Stone]

The trolley has gone off the rails a bit.

Every show has a moment or two that makes me laugh (this time, it was Tahani's $18K remark), but that feeling of continual surprise and delight that somehow miraculously survived through Season 2 is just not there anymore for me. 

A big story about the show in the Sunday New York Times magazine probably meant the writing was on the wall. Almost by definition, when The Times catches on to a cultural trend, it's over.

The show has not yet crossed over into "not worth watching anymore" territory, so there's that.

[CCTC]

I still enjoy the show.  It still has some sharp writing and a good cast.  However, it still is a high concept show and if it wanted to go out on top, probably should have had the series finale with them being sent back to earth and maybe having a closing shot of Eleanor and Chidi etc. bumping into each other.   Even though they have rebooted  the  show a couple of times, a number of themes have remained the same, so there is a bit of a been there done that as they repeat the cycle in a different location.  Great show, but as with a lot of other shows that have a unique concept, the longer it remains on the air the harder it is going to be either to not go completely off the track or become redundant.

I might be ready for the Jason and Janet running joke to end, and while Jason is endearing and can be funny, he is a pretty limited and is better as a less is more character.  The show has clever writing, but sometimes overplays some of their jokes.  Although Blake  Bortles/ Jaguars might never get old.  

Still has better writing than most sitcoms.  It is great with little throw away lines - such as the indirect Tom Brady reference, and the condolences for winning $18,000, and the quick shot of the AUS Weekly cover.

I do like Simone, and am fine with no one ending up as a couple (I think sometimes there is too much emphasis put on romantic couples in a lot sitcoms in general when it is not needed), but would be fine if she was the one Chidi actually ended up with.  The earlier comment speculating if she was possibly something other than a regular mortal woman does seem like a possibility.

As for the recurring bad place characters, I do kind of miss Micheal's boss, but suspect he will show up again at some point.

[clack]

There arose a problem with tone when the setting got switched to Australia.

Broad and silly situations and jokes were a delight in the Good Place, but in the "real world" setting the show begins to feel, tonally, like a 60's sitcom -- 'Bewitched', say, or 'I Dream of Jeannie'. In the faux-heaven of the Good Place, I believed in the characters and became invested in their attempts to resolve their external and internal conflicts. Now, the characters and their situations feel flat.

That said, I have faith that the writers know what they're doing. There is now a portal. I hope the characters enter it.

[Dowel Jones]

"Knee-deep, knee-deep, knee-deep"

[jmonique]

11 hours ago, CCTC said:

Even though they have rebooted  the  show a couple of times, a number of themes have remained the same, so there is a bit of a been there done that as they repeat the cycle in a different location.  Great show, but as with a lot of other shows that have a unique concept, the longer it remains on the air the harder it is going to be either to not go completely off the track or become redundant.

Yeah, I trust in Schur & Co., but I'm over waiting around and treading water as the gang comes together every time. I'd really LOVE it if they step through that door next week and suddenly all of their memories from all of the reboots come back. Let's get on with it.

[Ailianna]

I don't want this show to rush through its goodness, or to skip over things the writers (whom I have a lot of faith in, based on the last two seasons) think are important.  I'm not so egotistical to think that I know better than they do about how the show should go, and I'm in for the ride, hoping that there are lots of turns and twists, not just a straight line from A to Z.

[CherithCutestory]

This is up there with some of the biggest disappointments I've had in a show. And, honestly, although I love him I don't have full faith in Michael Schur since, in my opinion, Parks and Rec completely went off the rails in the final two seasons. And because of some of the self-indulgence evident here. I  am not remotely writing off the show or giving up though.

Before when I haven't liked episodes I at least felt they were still better than other shows. This was not. This was a mediocre episode of television. 

Wow, Eleanor had a realization that she acts out when she's upset or feeling feelings. Just like has happened multiple times already. But they erased all character growth so we have to watch the same plot points over and over and over. And every other time they've done that scene has been much more subtle than just having Simone tell us/her. I like the actress. But having a character dictate a plot point like that is not good television. (The cupcake scene was much better. Albeit forced since we've already seen Eleanor do group things with this group.)

One of my biggest annoyances is why are these people sitting around in a room learning philosophy all day? That made sense in the afterlife. But they are on an Earth filled with suffering. Go out and help someone! For real not for your own self-worth. It doesn't have to be one or the other. They can still learn from Chidi. But also actually do good things. 

Eleanor at least tried and backslid. These other jerks never even thought about doing more for others as crucial to being better human beings. Tahani's trip was all about inner peace away from the world not helping others. For Jason, I'll grant that not doing crime helped people but saving them from yourself isn't quite the same. 

And I'm full on in my belief that Chidi is the most selfish of them now. Eleanor came to him for help. He has never advised her that action is required to be a good person not just pure thoughts.  And THEN turned the whole thing to his own gain by using it to finish his thesis. And THEN when his friend and subject told him about her money issues he didn't do one single thing to help her out. She's there helping him on something that will make or break her career. He didn't move a muscle to help her be able to afford to do that. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[whiporee]

You raise interesting points, but I don't know that helping other people is the only definition of good. If you do subscribe to that belief, then your arguments hold. But if you don't -- and given all the things that can raise points we've seen -- then I don't know that the things you talk about in your criticisms fit in the world of the show. You're equating self-sacrifice with earning TGP, but we've been told that those who did a lot for the world aren't there.  I think the definitions on this show are much wider than the moralistic ones you'd see portrayed other places, and that's the angle they're headed to. 

As I said before, I think they took a big risk when they went to Earth, because a lot of the background stuff we've gotten used to wouldn't apply anymore, and gimmicks that gave it its shimmer would be gone, too. But I think that has only elevated what we're seeing, even if it's different. You say we've seen all this before, and I think just the opposite -- we're seeing results, not the process. Eleanor didn't hesitate for a moment when she was confronted by Simone, even after she'd been goaded by Michael. Why would -- or should -- Chidi, who did not invite Eleanor there, feel a responsibility toward her income? In the past, he would have spent hours stressed and stomach-achey about what his responsibilities are. Here he just figured she's a grown up. Which she is. As fo Tahani, she's done plenty to help others already -- if that was the definition of Good, then why is she even here? 

I think the overall meaning of the show -- and I don't think they are NEARLY there yet because MS has talked about an 11 year run -- is that what gets you into the TGP is a willingness to be be your best self. Not what you do for others, but the person you are to you. But I also think there are lots and lots of coils to unspool in this, and that's what makes it fascinating to watch.  Because it's nothing like a mediocre sitcom at all, unless you stop at the sight gags. or if you're expecting or demanding a straight-forward narrative. I don't think Shur has any desire to tell that kind of story here -- he's done it on P&R and continues to do it on B99. On this one, NBC said do whatever you want to tell the story you want to tell, and I think he's doing that, even if some chapters aren't always as fun as others. 

On the bright side, though, it looks like we get metaphysical hijinks next week. So maybe then it will get back to being the show so many expect it to be. 

[possibilities]

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

MS has talked about an 11 year run

Holy guacamole-- I missed whatever article or interview that was! Was he serious? It's rare for shows to last that long these days, and the ratings aren't that great for this one, so I'd never have imagined it would be possible. But I'd love it if it happened. The show is good at reinventing itself when needed.

[whiporee]

He was probably joking. But I don' think he's near done with the story yet is all I meant. 

[cpcathy]

I think I know the interview you're talking about--he was joking.

[CherithCutestory]

15 hours ago, whiporee said:

You're equating self-sacrifice with earning TGP, but we've been told that those who did a lot for the world aren't there.

It's not self-sacrifice. It's not devoting yourself to others 24/7. It's doing things for other people.  And if you don't act on being a good person you aren't a good person.

Quote

Why would -- or should -- Chidi, who did not invite Eleanor there, feel a responsibility toward her income? I

Because her being there is benefiting HIM. She didn't come down there to be part of a research project for Chidi to achieve a coveted career goal. But that's what he turned it into. And if you don't care that your friend who is there doing a program that will help you achieve your life long goal has no money to support continuing to do that you suck as a human being. It just makes him a terrible person to be that callous. Anyone should be concerned for a friend who is close to being homeless. Never mind when they are benefiting you by staying. And LOTS of university research programs give subjects money. He could have inquired about that.

If that's his reasoning (that it's not his responsibility) then I straight up hate Chidi at this point. What a jerk. He thinks he has no responsibility to a human being whom he is profiting off of? If he really thinks he has no reason to help her out as you say then fuck Chidi.

Quote

As fo Tahani, she's done plenty to help others already -- if that was the definition of Good, then why is she even here? 

Because she was doing it for herself. That was explained quite clearly in the first season finale. She did it to be praised not to actually help anyone.

15 hours ago, whiporee said:

but we've been told that those who did a lot for the world aren't there.

Those people did it for themselves like Tahani not to help people.

Quote

I think the overall meaning of the show -- and I don't think they are NEARLY there yet because MS has talked about an 11 year run -- is that what gets you into the TGP is a willingness to be be your best self.

I think the overall meaning is that the existing system for Good Place/Bad Place at it is is wrong. I really doubt Mike Schur is going to spout some Ayn Randesque philosophy about only owing anything to yourself.

Quote

Because it's nothing like a mediocre sitcom at all, unless you stop at the sight gags. or if you're expecting or demanding a straight-forward narrative.

Nobody who has watched this show for two seasons expects a straight-forward narrative. The only expectation is that it be good. And not just redo the same scenes over and over under the excuse that the characters were rebooted. Having characters who don't grow or learn for any significant length of time is a trademark of a typical mediocre sitcom. That the writers hide it under a clever concept of having memories wiped doesn't change that that's what's happened so far this season.

I understand arguments that the characters have retained some growth from rebooting but it doesn't change the fact that they've used this as an excuse to have scenes where once again Eleanor learns she acts out in fear of rejection or Tahani realizes she puts status above people or Chidi realizes he needs to act through out the season. It's using a high concept to excuse the typical sitcom dictate of "never grow, never change."

Edited October 15, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[whiporee]

But none of the things you've talked about in your last two paragraphs have actually happened, have they? We haven't seen Eleanor act that way, or Tahani or Chidi or Jason. None of the things you're talking about as regressive have actually happened for more than a moment or two. None of the characters exhibit their old traits, and I'd argue that none of them have at all this season. The montage we saw last week was them doing all that learning, which may be redundant to us as viewers, but in the narrative of the story it needed to have happened. But it took two minutes of screen time. I don't think that's too much. 

[rab01]

22 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

One of my biggest annoyances is why are these people sitting around in a room learning philosophy all day? That made sense in the afterlife. But they are on an Earth filled with suffering. Go out and help someone! For real not for your own self-worth. It doesn't have to be one or the other. They can still learn from Chidi. But also actually do good things. 

I think that's something that show just hasn't explored yet and I think they haven't developed it much for plot and character reasons.  In the afterlife it wasn't entirely applicable.  Here on Earth it's a product of the established dynamics.  Chidi, for all of his interest in ethical actions, has never been shown to spend a lot of time on charity work.  He's fascinated with the question of how to make an ethical choice but not with simply doing good.  Therefore, he's not thinking to teach the others to do something that he doesn't do himself.   (Admittedly, they can change that emphasis on a dime because surely some of the syllabus has works on faith/intent vs conduct.)

What I find a little off is that the characters just don't seem to be quite as smart this season and the situations don't feel as specific.  Like, Michael's fascination with paper-clips and suspenders was an interesting symptom of a near-immortal being trying to connect with human ephemera but his attempts at an Australian accent are just a dumb joke that they already did with real-Eleanor.

On a plot-level, I'm finding myself disconnected from Michael's desperate fear for the fates of Team Cockroach because the Judge told him that the humans will now live out their lives and be judged naturally (because of his meddling). That means that none of them have the immediate threat of the Bad Place hanging over them.  Michael has already bought them entire lifetimes to make a full set of human choices and live human lives.  It's Michael and Janet's fates that are hanging on a knife edge.

One last thought -- maybe what the show is missing this season is actual ethical dilemmas. This episode was centered on Tahani's love-life; the last one on essentially an annoying coworker, the premiere on getting the gang back together and Chidi's love-life.  Give me a trolley problem or an argument about sacrificing for a friend, or whether it's ethical to lie.   

[PityFree]

 I really wish Janet was still more computer like. I hate how they’re making her evolve to have more human qualities. I really got a kick of her blend of infinite knowledge, naïveté, and bluntness.  That was what made her so fun as a character.

[Zuleikha]

Because she was doing it for herself. That was explained quite clearly in the first season finale. She did it to be praised not to actually help anyone.

I have a lot of problems with the show's treatment of Tahani and this is one of them. It was both. The Tahani of S1 was a genuinely good person. She cared about what people thought of her because the blatant favoritism her parents gave her sister meant Tahani had no inherent, stable sense of self-worth. But that's sad, not evil or bad. We saw enough of her to know that she was a kind, empathetic person.

It also shouldn't undermine that she choose to do a lot of work to make the world a better place. She didn't try to attain praise through modeling or marrying someone super famous and becoming a tabloid celebrity. I think there is a reasonable argument based on what we were shown that Chidi's indecision caused enough actual harm to people to justify (barely!) his inclusion in the Bad Place. But I don't think there is any defensible morality system that would place Tahani there.

So it seems like an example of how f'd up the show's morality is that Tahani's supposed self-improvement leads her to do less actual good in the world. 

Broad and silly situations and jokes were a delight in the Good Place, but in the "real world" setting the show begins to feel, tonally, like a 60's sitcom

Agreed. Larry Hemsworth was a set of weird tics and callbacks, not a character who was believable as a real person. And it wasn't necessary because they created the broad brushstrokes of a character who makes a lot of sense for Tahani. He has the same sibling issues. He even channeled them into doing good works. 

I also don't know why Simone was brought in as a character. The actress and character are both fine in isolation. But given how s2 ended, it's just weird to suddenly have Eleanor and Chidi basically mean nothing to each other. The speech Simone gave normally would have been given by Chidi. I don't know what's gained by having Simone and Eleanor have that interaction instead. I don't know what I'm supposed to understand about the characters relationships with each other.

[Amarsir]

On 10/14/2018 at 9:31 AM, Ailianna said:

I don't want this show to rush through its goodness, or to skip over things the writers (whom I have a lot of faith in, based on the last two seasons) think are important.  I'm not so egotistical to think that I know better than they do about how the show should go, and I'm in for the ride, hoping that there are lots of turns and twists, not just a straight line from A to Z.

I have a lot of faith in the writers too. But my fear is that the desire to constantly evolve the premise has twisted and turned them out of an arrangement that was working. Maybe the next twist will regain all the lost charm and lead to the best episodes yet. But right now they're still going through a setting that isn't quite as good. Basically it's like this:

• I would have watched a full season of Eleanor hiding out surrounded by good people.
• I would have watched a full season of Eleanor and her friends trying to keep her in The Good Place.
• I would have watched a full season of Team Cockroach pretending to be tortured to fool Vicki..
• I really don't want to watch a full season of life on Earth.

There's no question that it's a few weaker episodes. But we also know Schur will keep shaking things up. So I can't judge if it's a temporary or lingering problem until we see the next "thing". But I can say this is the first time I'm not content with the status quo.

On 10/15/2018 at 12:07 AM, whiporee said:

I think the overall meaning of the show -- and I don't think they are NEARLY there yet because MS has talked about an 11 year run -- is that what gets you into the TGP is a willingness to be be your best self. Not what you do for others, but the person you are to you. But I also think there are lots and lots of coils to unspool in this, and that's what makes it fascinating to watch.  Because it's nothing like a mediocre sitcom at all, unless you stop at the sight gags. or if you're expecting or demanding a straight-forward narrative. I don't think Shur has any desire to tell that kind of story here -- he's done it on P&R and continues to do it on B99. On this one, NBC said do whatever you want to tell the story you want to tell, and I think he's doing that, even if some chapters aren't always as fun as others. 

I have to believe Mike has an endpoint in mind, but I'm not at all convinced the plot to get there is fully planned. And that plus a desire to turn frequently means the potential to get boxed in a corner. And thus the need to create things like lottery tickets and hidden cameras to cover up what would otherwise be plot holes. As I say, maybe the next twist will be wonderful. Or maybe a neighborhood of yogurt shops was their best setting and it was a mistake to have torn it down.

12 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

I also don't know why Simone was brought in as a character. The actress and character are both fine in isolation. But given how s2 ended, it's just weird to suddenly have Eleanor and Chidi basically mean nothing to each other. The speech Simone gave normally would have been given by Chidi. I don't know what's gained by having Simone and Eleanor have that interaction instead. I don't know what I'm supposed to understand about the characters relationships with each other.

This is one of the things that makes me believe they are going somewhere interesting. Because she doesn't make sense on her own.

[bros402]

I think they have a plan with this season, so far this season has been rather enjoyable because of the carrot at the end of the stick - this show will zigzag eventually - well, end of this episode was certainly a monkey wrench - I bet the next episode will be rather interesting

[Blakeston]

9 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I have a lot of problems with the show's treatment of Tahani and this is one of them. It was both. The Tahani of S1 was a genuinely good person. She cared about what people thought of her because the blatant favoritism her parents gave her sister meant Tahani had no inherent, stable sense of self-worth. But that's sad, not evil or bad. We saw enough of her to know that she was a kind, empathetic person.

It also shouldn't undermine that she choose to do a lot of work to make the world a better place. She didn't try to attain praise through modeling or marrying someone super famous and becoming a tabloid celebrity. I think there is a reasonable argument based on what we were shown that Chidi's indecision caused enough actual harm to people to justify (barely!) his inclusion in the Bad Place. But I don't think there is any defensible morality system that would place Tahani there.

The system seems to require that someone get a whole, whole lot of points in order to get into The Good Place. It's not just about avoiding doing harm, it's about doing a slew of good deeds for the right reasons.

Tahani's acts of charity weren't done with the motive of helping others. And honestly, she never struck me as empathetic in season 1 - almost everything she said and did was about her own ego. She was also arrogant, condescending, and willfully oblivious to how privileged she was.

If she didn't get credit for her charitable fundraising because it was done with the wrong motivations, then I don't see how she could have possibly racked up enough points for The Good Place.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Blakeston

[possibilities]

10 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I also don't know why Simone was brought in as a character.

I don't know, but I can think of a few questions I'd like the show to answer:

What are the ethics of bringing her through that portal, when she's never been dead before?

What are the ethics of leaving her behind, wondering what happened to her friends who suddenly disappeared without a trace?

Is she really a human, and not a Good Place Missionary?

What would happen to Team Cockroach's relationships if they become aware of their situation and have to either share it with Simone, or keep it as a secret from her?

How would someone like Simone react to being told their stories about the afterlife?

There are probably more. But this show never does anything randomly, so I'm expecting they have their reasons.

[RainbowBrite]

42 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I don't know, but I can think of a few questions I'd like the show to answer:

What are the ethics of bringing her through that portal, when she's never been dead before?

What are the ethics of leaving her behind, wondering what happened to her friends who suddenly disappeared without a trace?

Is she really a human, and not a Good Place Missionary?

What would happen to Team Cockroach's relationships if they become aware of their situation and have to either share it with Simone, or keep it as a secret from her?

How would someone like Simone react to being told their stories about the afterlife?

There are probably more. But this show never does anything randomly, so I'm expecting they have their reasons.

I feel like their fix to all (or most) of those questions will be that Simone is not really a "human".

[ByTor]

I loved season 1.  I liked season 2.  Based on this & the prior episodes, this show is losing me.  And based on the fact that this episode started with a fart joke, I'm also losing faith in TPTB turning the season around.

[PityFree]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I don't know, but I can think of a few questions I'd like the show to answer:

What are the ethics of bringing her through that portal, when she's never been dead before?

What are the ethics of leaving her behind, wondering what happened to her friends who suddenly disappeared without a trace?

Is she really a human, and not a Good Place Missionary?

What would happen to Team Cockroach's relationships if they become aware of their situation and have to either share it with Simone, or keep it as a secret from her?

How would someone like Simone react to being told their stories about the afterlife?

There are probably more. But this show never does anything randomly, so I'm expecting they have their reasons.

 I could swear that when they initially proposed sending humans back to earn points they were sending them back to a simulation not the actual earth. Anyone else remember this?

 If it isn’t a simulation here’s my prediction:  Janet made Simone, just like she made Derek (only she’s much much better at making people Then she was when she made Derrick).  Therefore, Simone is not human and there are no ethical problems as described above.

Edited October 16, 2018 by PityFree

[Zuleikha]

Tahani's acts of charity weren't done with the motive of helping others. And honestly, she never struck me as empathetic in season 1 - almost everything she said and did was about her own ego.

I don't agree that the show clearly established that good deeds only mattered if they were done with the "right" reasons when the show explained the point system. It seemed to be more action oriented. I also disagree that Tahani's acts of charity weren't done with the motive of helping others. Her motivations were a mix. 

In any event, my point stands that I think it's an f--'d up morality system that would prefer Tahani to be on retreat in a monastery/spend a year in Australia discussing moral philosophy than to be actively raising millions of dollars to fund not-for-profits. 

To be fair to the show, I do think the goal for this season is going to be to confront how f--'d up the morality system is. Because while I'm still not sold on Jason, I do think Eleanor is right that at worst, she, Chidi, and Tahani belonged in a neutral place.

[Rockstar99435]

35 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

To be fair to the show, I do think the goal for this season is going to be to confront how f--'d up the morality system is. Because while I'm still not sold on Jason, I do think Eleanor is right that at worst, she, Chidi, and Tahani belonged in a neutral place.

I can get behind the idea that maybe Eleanor, as who she is now, belongs in a neutral place, but when she died? She was a terrible person. She made money by tricking old sick people into buying fake medicine. She wasn't tricked into the job or forced to take whatever job she could get because she was desperate. She took the job because she had no problem with scamming vulnerable people. And she was the top salesperson multiple times. Even after becoming good, she went back to the job when she wanted to make money. 

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, PityFree said:

I could swear that when they initially proposed sending humans back to earn points they were sending them back to a simulation not the actual earth. Anyone else remember this?

I don't think so. Gen told Michael that sending them back could cause problems and Michael said that, basically, what damage could sending just these four people back. Gen then agreed. That conversation wouldn't have been necessary if they were sending Team Cockroach to a simulated Earth.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I have a lot of problems with the show's treatment of Tahani and this is one of them. It was both. The Tahani of S1 was a genuinely good person. She cared about what people thought of her because the blatant favoritism her parents gave her sister meant Tahani had no inherent, stable sense of self-worth. But that's sad, not evil or bad. We saw enough of her to know that she was a kind, empathetic person.

It also shouldn't undermine that she choose to do a lot of work to make the world a better place. She didn't try to attain praise through modeling or marrying someone super famous and becoming a tabloid celebrity. I think there is a reasonable argument based on what we were shown that Chidi's indecision caused enough actual harm to people to justify (barely!) his inclusion in the Bad Place. But I don't think there is any defensible morality system that would place Tahani there.

So it seems like an example of how f'd up the show's morality is that Tahani's supposed self-improvement leads her to do less actual good in the world. 

Agreed, and I recognized that back in the first season. I take it to be a commentary, or parable, of most organized religion, wherein it is not your behavior or your actions that determine whether you get into heaven, but what you believe. Tahani did a lot of good work for the "wrong" reasons so she's damned to the Bad Place. That's basically what most religions say. You can be the kindest, nicest person in the world but if you don't believe in the right religion, you're doomed.

[Zuleikha]

That's basically what most religions say. You can be the kindest, nicest person in the world but if you don't believe in the right religion, you're doomed.

It's probably not a coincidence that I feel like the treatment of Tahani is particularly unjust, and I'm Jewish since Judaism is a religion that focuses on actions rather than beliefs. 

I can get behind the idea that maybe Eleanor, as who she is now, belongs in a neutral place, but when she died? She was a terrible person. She made money by tricking old sick people into buying fake medicine.

This is true. I am probably being more generous to Eleanor than she deserves since the show made canon that a lot of her terribleness was a result of a truly crappy upbringing and negative environment. 

[aradia22]

This is not the show I love if they don't have a callback to Ken (guy behind the register when they bought the lottery ticket).

LOL. I thought Ben Lawson as Larry on that magazine cover was just a throwaway. I should have known better. He's one of the best handsome man actors in the business.

I would love it if Janet started attracting attention, even just locally, as some kind of mysterious psychic.

So are Janet and Michael allowed to interfere in getting their point totals up now that the experiment is over?

I prefer to believe that they wrote Michael's terrible Australian accent into the show because Ted Danson can't do accents.

I do think Michael and Janet need to learn to stop meddling and I hope at some point the group is going to learn to actually be good for altruistic reasons since... wasn't that the whole point?

And... before that could happen we got the end of the episode. Gargh. Frustrating.