S01.E05: Living with the Enemy

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Joe and Beck's fledgling relationship is tested by the increasingly intrusive meddling of Beck's friend Peach; Joe does everything in his power to solve his Peach problem without making a mess.

Airs 10/7/2018.

 

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder to please keep discussion in this topic to the episode. Book discussion (including comparing the episode and the book) should go in the You: The Book topic.

If you feel a tiny bit of information about the book will add to your post, please use spoiler tags. Otherwise, posts with book talk will be removed. Thank you.

[Spartan Girl]

Boy, Beck is just a big magnet for horrible, toxic psychos. Horrible people attract even more horrible people, I guess.

Oops, Peach is still alive. But I have a feeling her days are numbered, as well as Paco's jerk stepdad-to-be. Should have just let that guy die.

[LittleIggy]

That must have been the abridged version of the abridged version of The Count of Monte Cristo because that book is over 1000 pages long! Am I sick because I cheer for Joe? ? This show just has me hooked! The line “Beck has a stalker” cracked me up. ?

[lvbalgurl]

Holy crap this show is off the hook.  Beck's best friend is a manipulative stalker and her boyfriend is a stalking sociopath.  I don't know what from what, except that I'm seriously engaged in this craziness.  WAKE UP, BECK.

2 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

That must have been the abridged version of the abridged version of The Count of Monte Cristo because that book is over 1000 pages long! Am I sick because I cheer for Joe? ? This show just has me hooked! The line “Beck has a stalker” cracked me up. ?

I'm between cheering for Joe, being aww'd by sweet Joe/Beck scenes, and rooting for Joe and Peach to be together, because they are damn near the same person (minus the killing, of course).  The show has me sideways!

Edited October 8, 2018 by lvbalgurl

[biakbiak]

Continue to watch but these are all vile human beings and I don’t ship or root for anyone. Okay I root for the kid and the dude at the bookstore and I don’t want to Beck to die in a fire.

[VagueDisclaimer]

While i’m sure it’s a pattern that works for Joe, I don’t love this formula of:

Joe flips out on Beck and says mean but truthful things —>> Beck gets upset, tells Joe he knows nothing, flounces off —>>Apologetic Beck inevitably goes back to Joe when he, of course, turns out to be right. Because stalker.

Though, I guess this episode, Joe being right and Peach being “irrational” didn’t really work out, as Peach still has a long history with Peach over him and Beck has misplaced loyalities.

And really, I am glad that Beck has loyalties to her friends over a new guy in her life, but it’s a shame she’s so damn easy to manipulate. I liked that in last week’s episode, we got a glimpse into Beck’s mind and we saw how little confidence she has about her own voice and that she needs a lot of validation. That said, she’s a little to malleable, imo. But I guess that’s why personalities like Peach and Joe are drawn to her. 

i’m glad Peach wasn’t killed so easily and Joe is getting sloppy. Also, kinda stupid? I mean, maybe no one really misses Benji, but someone like Peach? Come’on. But I guess the point was to show that as much as he might preach and advise his little protege, he obviously still hasn’t learned to quell his impulses.

Speaking of, I wish Paco  had called the cops when the boyfriend(stepdad? i can’t remember now) was beating on Joe, because that would’ve helped with an alibi for Joe and possibly allowed charges against the guy to keep him out of the apartment. But that doesn’t look like that’s happened. So Paco just tried to kill this dude. Even if he doesn’t know it was Paco, abusive guy like that is not going to be reacting well in the aftermath. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by VagueDisclaimer

[poeticlicensed]

As much as Joe is a crazy stalker, he is right about Beck's friends. Peach is just awful, I think the two of them have a weird co-dependent relationship. Even a normal guy (i.e. not a stalker serial killer lol) would be frustrated by those two. And Back just acts so damn dumb when it comes to Peach. For instance, if Peach is her bestie, then why wait until her professor wants to hook her up with an agent to introduce her to limo pervert agent guy? And that "suicide attempt" was so transparent, she just wanted Beck to come running. If Beck had a brain, she would insist on going to the hospital. That said, Joe seems to be getting more and more stalkerish (now with the friends, ugh) and controlling. 

And I'm confused, were Peach and Beck really hooking up, or was that all in Joe's imagination? I wasn't sure. 

[TomGirl]

25 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

 

And I'm confused, were Peach and Beck really hooking up, or was that all in Joe's imagination? I wasn't sure. 

I think it was just in Joe’s imagination.

[kdm07]

Aaaaannnd I'm back to rooting for nobody but the kid.

Joe should've made sure Peach was dead. He's clearly not as smart as he thinks he is.

[LilaFowler]

Did Joe imply that he killed his parents when he was talking to Paco?

Paco is lucky that Joe intervened and saved the abusive drunk. It's still murder. That's not the way to go, kid. Call the cops when the guy starts hitting your mom.

Peach needs to come out and then find herself a nice girlfriend. Beck enjoys the attention/obsession that she gets from both Joe and Peach.

[VagueDisclaimer]

1 hour ago, poeticlicensed said:

For instance, if Peach is her bestie, then why wait until her professor wants to hook her up with an agent to introduce her to limo pervert agent guy? 

Something I wanted Beck or Joe to point out as well. 

[BaskingsharkGTX]

In the tradition of that old soap All My Children, maybe they should retitle this show All My Stalkers.

[Chaos Theory]

Two thoughts:  Beck is a magnet for the crazy ones.

And I called it about Shay Mitchell.  

So which stalker am I rooting for this week?  I don’t really care because Beck is still the least interesting character so it is kinda bad that I am rooting for the stalkers.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[BooBear]

12 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

That must have been the abridged version of the abridged version of The Count of Monte Cristo because that book is over 1000 pages long! Am I sick because I cheer for Joe? ? This show just has me hooked! The line “Beck has a stalker” cracked me up. ?

Joe is about 90% normal and 10% crazy. I find myself rooting for him most of the time until he goes off on the crazy train. Joe seems so controlled and aware and then he just goes off and bashes Peaches head in the middle of the day. That was stupid.  He is lucky she is alive. If you are going to take someone out, don't miss.  I like the two stalkers doing battle. 

Some of this is taken to extremes but I find it sort of true to life. In every little group of friendships it seems to me like there is the *one* that everyone wants ... wants to be their friend and BFF and that tends to get stalkers with people trying to control them. 

Poor Paco I am sure that will make things more difficult. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

What was Joe's plan re: The Stepdad?  Wake him up - then what?  

I don't personally agree that a murderer is 90% normal.  

Waiting a week is torture!  

Edited October 8, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Mabinogia]

14 minutes ago, BooBear said:

In every little group of friendships it seems to me like there is the *one* that everyone wants ... wants to be their friend and BFF and that tends to get stalkers with people trying to control them. 

This is true, I just don't get why that person would be Beck. She is the least interesting, least charismatic, least there character I've seen in a long time. And I like the actress, think she's appealing and charismatic, it's just that Beck is such a drain of energy and life that I don't know why anyone would want to spend time with her, let alone obsessively watch everything she does. Maybe it's because she's so devoid of any personality that her stalkers can basically make her into anything they want her to be? 

[LittleIggy]

What did Annika say in that video that Peach (we know it was here) posted? I couldn’t understand her.

[BaskingsharkGTX]

48 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Maybe it's because she's so devoid of any personality that her stalkers can basically make her into anything they want her to be? 

I think it's pretty much this. Joe doesn't really know anything about Beck, he's just built her into his perfect fantasy woman in his mind, based on their one interaction in the bookstore. When she "disappoints" him one time too many, things will likely get very bad very quickly.

This, of course, is because Joe is an introverted psychopath. As to why Peach, who is rich, hot and could get pretty much anyone she wants is interested in Beck, I have no idea. 

[Jillybean]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

What did Annika say in that video that Peach (we know it was here) posted? I couldn’t understand her.

All I caught was "Where are the white guys who like women with big butts?" or something to that effect.

[LilaFowler]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

This is true, I just don't get why that person would be Beck. She is the least interesting, least charismatic, least there character I've seen in a long time. And I like the actress, think she's appealing and charismatic, it's just that Beck is such a drain of energy and life that I don't know why anyone would want to spend time with her, let alone obsessively watch everything she does. Maybe it's because she's so devoid of any personality that her stalkers can basically make her into anything they want her to be? 

That's exactly how I've felt about Bella Swan, Anastasia Steele, etc. It's almost like they are deliberately average.

[luckyroll3]

4 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

What did Annika say in that video that Peach (we know it was here) posted? I couldn’t understand her.

 

3 hours ago, Jillybean said:

All I caught was "Where are the white guys who like women with big butts?" or something to that effect.

She said something along the lines of only black guys are interested in/appreciative of her because they tend to like bigger women and curves, followed by, "Where the white guys at?"  Not at all racist, but racist enough for the social media trolls to blow it out of proportion and cause her death by social media.  

Edited October 8, 2018 by luckyroll3

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, LilaFowler said:

That's exactly how I've felt about Bella Swan, Anastasia Steele, etc. It's almost like they are deliberately average.

HA. I often am mystified as to why the most popular one in a group is the popular one.  With regard to Beck I think it is that she is easily manipulated and has little backbone. She is also pretty.  I am sure Peach would like a pretty minion who will do what she wants.  I feel also like sometimes even in normal relationships there is nothing particularly spectacular about the person popular, but as was pointed out here, there has been so much put into the relationship, no one wants to let all that work go. Peach isn't going to let Beck go easily because she has put a lot of work into her. 

[VagueDisclaimer]

2 hours ago, BaskingsharkGTX said:

I think it's pretty much this. Joe doesn't really know anything about Beck, he's just built her into his perfect fantasy woman in his mind, based on their one interaction in the bookstore. When she "disappoints" him one time too many, things will likely get very bad very quickly.

This, of course, is because Joe is an introverted psychopath. As to why Peach, who is rich, hot and could get pretty much anyone she wants is interested in Beck, I have no idea. 

Agreed. It’s all about projections with a stalker. It’s not about reality, it’s about who he has created. And yes, once she fails to live up to his expectations in a way that he can’t accept, that’ll be the end of that.

With Peach, I think it’s a lot of what Joe analyzed. Peach does have everything and could have anyone, as long as it’s approved. Beck likely began as a project, then a crush, and then something she knew she couldn’t have, so Peach has to keep Beck in a special place of needing her in some way(including Beck’s need to be Peach’s savior, like she was with her dad). 

[sweetandsour]

Peach is the real trash goblin!!!

Well, the "overdose."  I wish that had backfired on her in that Beck/Joe called for an ambulance on the way to Peach's place.  Beck is definitely caught in a doom loop with Peach - Peach has (allegedly) tried suicide multiple times in the past and Beck didn't call for medical help when Peach called her or after she helped Peach throw up.  How exactly does Beck reconcile all of these attempts with "no, she doesn't need real help - she says I'm enough and I guess I am."  I know Beck has a rather weak mental constitution and doesn't want to argue with Peach, but geez.  Either that, or she on some level knows that it's always a ploy and Peach has never actually tried to die. (Which still necessitates professional help, btw.)

I also think it's incredibly (but believably) insensitive for Peach to pull these stunts on Beck.  It's not the same thing as Beck going to the basement and finding her dad passed out with a needle in his arm, but luring Beck into these manipulated settings where Peach is passed out and Beck has to save her is potentially very damaging.

I know this is going to sound insensitive on my part, but Beck has to find other sources of inspiration than writing her partially-fictional account of her experiences with her father.  It's fine for now because at least she's writing about something instead of being blocked / avoiding writing altogether, but the paid jobs that her professor was helping her connect with aren't necessarily going to allow her to go to that well.  The girl needs money more than ever since The Captain isn't going to be subsidizing like before.  And it was crazy to me that she went from the lows of not turning in work at all to thinking she was ready to be published through a prestigious agent.

Peach's journal!  She wrote down the pills she took!  Trash.  Goblin.  I read what was on the page when Joe first discovered her journal, and I'm pretty sure at least 20% of her supreme bitchiness is due to constant hunger.  Also, who eats "0.2 cups" of anything?  I don't have measuring cups or spoons that show that denomination.  Peach is the type of person, though, who would bark at someone preparing her food - "NO, not 1/4th cup of that, 1/5th!  1/5th!  Why is this so hard to do?"  I really laughed at how she also tracks info on her bowels and gas.  

Beck and every single one of her friends is an empty vessel.  No wonder they hang out together in such a superficial frenemies way.  And no wonder why Beck has such a poor handle on who she is.  That adage about being the average of the five people you spend the most time with has a real degree of truth.

I wish Joe had played the long game with Peach better.  He's gotten a sense of her obsession, instability, manipulations, and lashing out.  There are ways he could have used Peach against herself (she seems to unravel in previews) without directly engaging with her as an enemy in the foreground.  That gives him more plausible deniability with Beck, too.  Though that was probably the point of him advising Paco about playing the long game when neither of them could.

Beck was a complete asshole when she didn't stick up for Joe as Peach was rifling through his things because Beck, a guest Joe trusts to be at his place alone, let her inside.  I don't know why she so easily refuted Peach the previous episode ("Joe didn't steal your book!") and then in this episode, just stood there like, "Don't put me in the middle, I don't want to admit that my friend is being a crazy bitch, can we just pretend this conflict isn't happening and really, can I just get what I want out of being close to both of you?"  And then she accused Joe of not believing in her when he's the ONLY person in her personal life who does.  (I don't count the professor here.)

Joe Joe Joe.  You threw the bloody rock away too close to the scene of the crime.  It might not have usable prints, depending on the surface texture, and maybe any of his DNA left behind (from sweat, skin cells, etc.) will wash away from being outside in the elements, but that was a real rookie move, bro.

I could go on and on, but I guess I'll stop.  Touche, bitch!!!

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

And really, I am glad that Beck has loyalties to her friends over a new guy in her life, but it’s a shame she’s so damn easy to manipulate. I liked that in last week’s episode, we got a glimpse into Beck’s mind and we saw how little confidence she has about her own voice and that she needs a lot of validation. That said, she’s a little to malleable, imo. But I guess that’s why personalities like Peach and Joe are drawn to her. 

I don't completely disagree with this in relation to Beck's personality in general. But I think that, to be fair, we have to remember that she doesn't see what we see. She doesn't know that Joe is not just a perceptive guy who reads people well; she has no idea that he already knows so much stuff about her because of the sneaky, shady things he's done--things that we, but not Beck, see him do. And I don't think a normal person, much less a somewhat oblivious person like her, would suspect anyone of what he's done. Considering all of that, I don't find her too malleable in some of the instances we see--after all, she just thinks Joe's astute and Peach is her friend.

Edited October 8, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[Jade Foxx]

5 hours ago, BooBear said:

Joe is about 90% normal and 10% crazy.

My take is 40% normal (functional) and 60% bat shit psycho cray cray

[legxleg]

I think Peach is my favorite. She's an absolutely toxic person, but Shay Mitchell does such a good job with her that I just love whenever she's on screen. I'm so glad that she survived. Who else will inform me of the life-changing shock of being in an airport on 9/11? Or teach me by example to include fake suicide attempt pills in my food journal? My diet will never work unless I am brutally honest about every gram of food that I am consuming! Thanks, Peach! Also, I would bet you real money that her family has absolutely zero connection to JD Salinger. 

[VagueDisclaimer]

3 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I don't completely disagree with this in relation to Beck's personality in general. But I think that, to be fair, we have to remember that she doesn't see what we see. She doesn't know that Joe is not just a perceptive guy who reads people well; she has no idea that he already knows so much stuff about her because of the sneaky, shady things he's done--things that we, but not Beck, see him do. And I don't think a normal person, much less a somewhat oblivious person like her, would suspect anyone of what he's done. Considering all of that, I don't find her too malleable in some of the instances we see--after all, she just thinks Joe's astute and Peach is her friend.

I don’t disagree. I’m not faulting the character, but more the writing. She plays too easily, imo, but again, that might be the personality that they’re trying to portray, someone who doesn’t have strong enough opinions, desires, or sense of self that those around her don’t have to try too hard to influence her.

[topanga]

5 hours ago, sweetandsour said:

Beck and every single one of her friends is an empty vessel.  No wonder they hang out together in such a superficial frenemies way.  And no wonder why Beck has such a poor handle on who she is.  That adage about being the average of the five people you spend the most time with has a real degree of truth.

You're right. But I actually agreed with Peach that Joe was ruining their girls’ nights. Joe, even if your girlfriend insists that you hang out with her and her friends, don’t. Or if you do, you don’t sit around scowling the whole night. I hate it when guys do that.

 

10 hours ago, kdm07 said:

 

Aaaaannnd I'm back to rooting for nobody but the kid.

 

That’s where I am. No one on this shows is particularly likable except for Paco. 

And people just keep Naloxone in their medicine cabinets nowadays? Everyone wants to be prepared for an opioid overdose?

Edited October 9, 2018 by topanga

[TattleTeeny]

25 minutes ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

I don’t disagree. I’m not faulting the character, but more the writing. She plays too easily, imo, but again, that might be the personality that they’re trying to portray, someone who doesn’t have strong enough opinions, desires, or sense of self that those around her don’t have to try too hard to influence her.

Oh, agree, definitely! I think that is the personality (or lack thereof) we're supposed to notice. I think she's one of those people who tries too hard, almost to the point of fakery--a "poser," if you will. She wants to be a deep, scholarly type, but also a hot girl and cool chick, and maybe a socialite. She bends to those around her, which may be why people find her attractive: she mirrors them as an ally but probably will never surpass them in whatever it is she's mirroring so the other person still gets to be superior in the relationship. It might even be something Benjy (!) was kind of correct about, haha! But I think they're also doing a good job of showing little bits of what she would really be like if she could just relax about it (maybe what she would be like once she's outside of her 20s?); unfortunately, those bits mostly seem to show up when she's with Joe, of all people. But he's good at that too--and also a crazed maniac!

Edited October 9, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, topanga said:

You're right. But I actually agreed with Peach that Joe was ruining their girls’ nights. Joe, even if your girlfriend insists that you hang out with her and her friends, don’t. Or if you do, you don’t sit around scowling the whole night. I hate it when guys do that.

 

Yeah.  I also have a few female friends who insisted on going to all of their boyfriends' guys' nights and then proceeding to get mad at the boyfriend for something or other - it's always a disaster.  Never understood that either.

I think Beck is an idiot and I honestly see no redeeming qualities. Sure she's not a murderer, but as a character in trashy fiction, I am seeing nothing.

I don't understand how Beck let Peach go through Joe's stuff like that, since she knows nothing about Joe's thievery.  

Edited October 9, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[biakbiak]

4 hours ago, topanga said:

And people just keep Naloxone in their medicine cabinets nowadays? Everyone wants to be prepared for an opioid overdose?

Both of them appeared to have prescriptions for opioids and doctors are now prescribing it when you have a longer term prescription to an opioid. 

[Madding crowd]

I have been on opioids for years and my doctor has never mentioned my getting this antidote-I don’t think it is routinely prescribed, at least to anyone in my pain support group or anyone I know.

I can’t find myself rooting for Joe. Besides him being a murderer I despise people who go through other people’s things. I can relate a little bit to Beck being a writer myself, but I never had anyone paying my way so yes she and her friends are entitled. And the thought that she just finished something and is immediately ready to publish, just no. 

[tennisgurl]

"Becks got a stalker." I literally laughed out loud at that. Joe might be a smart guy, but the guy has about zero sense of self awareness. I guess thats a side affect of being a crazy stalker. No wonder Peach had his number right away, it takes a stalker to know a stalker! They are both obsessed with Beck, think they know whats best for her, and will use underhanded means to "protect" her behind her back.

Peach might be a hot mess and a toxic friend, but I am still happy that she survived. Much like how I am still fascinated by Joe, even though he is a deeply unsettling murderer, I still love Peach, and her pretentious mean girl ways. She is just so snarky and alternately perpetually bored and bratty, and desperately needy for Becks to pay attention to her, its quite fascinating. And it takes more than a rock to the head to take down a PLL! She escaped those kinds of traps from her many stalkers for years!

Beck really attracts winners, huh? Its like every stalker and creep on the eastern seaboard wants a piece of her! Maybe its because, as others have pointed out, Beck is a bit of an empty vessel, trying to be everything to everyone, due to her lack of self esteem. People like Joe and Peach (especially Joe) can project their ideal person onto her, because she changes her persona to fit into the situation she finds herself in at the time anyway. She has a bit of a little girl lost vibe that I can see attracting unwholesome folks, plus being generally beautiful. Although, if she has anymore creepy weirdos obsessing over her, I might have to raise an official eye brow. Kind of ironic that the one person who didnt seem super into her was the guy she was actually sleeping with at the start of the series. 

Poor Paco. I think that Joe sees some of himself in him, which I dont think bodes well for his future, especially if he is staring to getting murder-y like Joe is. Although, he really needs to capitalize on that speed reading, he read CoMC, a big ass book and not an easy read, in like two days! 

I kind of want to see Joe and Peach teaming up to go after some of the people who have hurt Beck, like her dad or the sleazy professor. They would be a seriously scary stalker dream team. 

[topanga]

9 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Beck is a bit of an empty vessel, trying to be everything to everyone, due to her lack of self esteem. People like Joe and Peach (especially Joe) can project their ideal person onto her, because she changes her persona to fit into the situation she finds herself in at the time anyway. She has a bit of a little girl lost vibe that I can see attracting unwholesome folks, plus being generally beautiful.

Fortunately or unfortunately, children of alcoholics and drug addicts tend to grow up cynical and with good bullshit detectors. Beck certainly did not. If I didn’t know about her history with her father, I’d think she grew up extremely sheltered.

15 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Peach might be a hot mess and a toxic friend, but I am still happy that she survived. Much like how I am still fascinated by Joe, even though he is a deeply unsettling murderer, I still love Peach, and her pretentious mean girl ways. She is just so snarky and alternately perpetually bored and bratty, and desperately needy for Becks to pay attention to her, its quite fascinating.

Me too. I both love and loathe Peach—Slay Mitchell is doing a great job in this role. Is Peach a nickname or short for something, BTW?

 Peach mentioned going to Jew camp. Was JD Salinger Jewish?

[NeenerNeener]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Poor Paco. I think that Joe sees some of himself in him, which I dont think bodes well for his future, especially if he is staring to getting murder-y like Joe is.

This reminds me of the book versions of Aster and Cody in the Dexter series. Dexter recognized them as budding psychos when he started dating their mother and he tried to channel their darker impulses the same way Harry tried to redirect his as a child. The tv series made them normal, boring kids and wrote them out eventually.

[VagueDisclaimer]

3 hours ago, topanga said:

Fortunately or unfortunately, children of alcoholics and drug addicts tend to grow up cynical and with good bullshit detectors. Beck certainly did not. If I didn’t know about her history with her father, I’d think she grew up extremely sheltered.

Me too. I both love and loathe Peach—Slay Mitchell is doing a great job in this role. Is Peach a nickname or short for something, BTW?

 Peach mentioned going to Jew camp. Was JD Salinger Jewish?

I think Peach is just her name, like Gwyneth Paltrow’s daughter, Apple :)

There’s much questioned about Salinger and religion, from what I recall. I don’t think he was a practicing Jew, but his dad was Jewish and his mom practiced Judaism after marriage, but was born Catholic and never officially converted. So, it’s a bit of “choose your own adventure” situation, I think.  

[Chaos Theory]

Is it wrong that I want Peaches and Beck to make out once before Joe murders Peaches?

 

Seriously Shay Mitchell although I love the fact you play lesbian characters just once be on a non stalker show.   Keep the gay.  Lose the stalk.  

Ryan Murphy might be hiring.

? 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[dubbel zout]

On 10/7/2018 at 11:40 PM, LittleIggy said:

That must have been the abridged version of the abridged version of The Count of Monte Cristo because that book is over 1000 pages long!

Maybe it was a bound copy of the Classic Comics version. LOL. 

On 10/8/2018 at 2:47 PM, LilaFowler said:

That's exactly how I've felt about Bella Swan, Anastasia Steele, etc. It's almost like they are deliberately average.

Stephenie Meyer gave Bella Swan few specific details so that readers could create their own picture of her. And I think having an average protagonist is supposed to make the reader feel she could be that character.

On 10/8/2018 at 9:10 PM, topanga said:

But I actually agreed with Peach that Joe was ruining their girls’ nights. Joe, even if your girlfriend insists that you hang out with her and her friends, don’t. Or if you do, you don’t sit around scowling the whole night. I hate it when guys do that.

Same here. Suck it up and participate or don't go in the first place.

I love the Peach-Joe chess game. They're both awful people, but they're a hoot to watch try to one-up the other, IMO.

Joe's flailing running at the beginning was hilarious.

I was kind of disappointed the creepy boyfriend didn't barf on Joe while he was beating him up. That would have been a very funny callback.

[Guest]

On 10/8/2018 at 2:47 PM, LilaFowler said:

That's exactly how I've felt about Bella Swan, Anastasia Steele, etc. It's almost like they are deliberately average.

To be fair, Anastasia Steele is Bella Swan since 50 Shades was originally Twilight fanfic. But yeah, your original point stands.

Beyond the "Mary Sue enigma" literary trope, I think Beck's overall blandness in the show (haven't read the book) is a testament to the general hot girl mythology in society. Physical attractiveness gives you such an advantage in life and we are so overwhelmed over people who are physically attractive because we associate being good-looking with being predisposed to be socially and professionally successful and just inherently superior. Whether you're consumed by lust or envy for the person, hot people ultimately don't need much of a personality at all because everyone else invents a narrative for them to their own advantage whenever that may be. Of course not all hot people are vapid blank slates, but their attractiveness means that can be an option. Beck doesn't need any defining characteristics or life goals or talent because Joe and Peach have already invented their own respective personas for her, which is in turn how the audience sees her, but when you step away from that you realize there's no there there. They're both in love with a mirage, but neither of them care because she's the physical embodiment of their fantasy. At the end of the day, everyone either wants to be beautiful or possess someone beautiful – or both. You certainly bears that out.

[rejnel]

Beck is insipid. I had a flash of hope during the previous episode ("The Captain") that Beck was actually playing a long con on Joe--not sure for what purpose, but maybe a Body Heat kind of deal or something. This would go a long way to explaining the lack of curtains and some other apparently dumb or oblivious moves on her part. I would have loved to see a montage of the first several episodes with Beck very aware of Joe watching her, Joe masturbating outside her window, Joe stealing her phone. And then we realize how precisely she's playing him, down to the messages with her friends and so on.

Not that I need a twist! in everything I watch, but she's just so insufferable--bland and pretentious at the same time--that I hoped there was another layer there. Oh, well.

Also, I wish the writers had dug in even an inch on the publishing scene, how actual writers talk about their work and what they do every day (hint: write), how MFA seminars operate, and how human professors behave and talk on earth.

And yet I am so very very obsessed with this show!

Edited January 1, 2019 by rejnel

[methodwriter85]

On 10/20/2018 at 4:02 PM, SnarkEnthusiast said:

I think Beck's overall blandness in the show (haven't read the book) is a testament to the general hot girl mythology in society. Physical attractiveness gives you such an advantage in life and we are so overwhelmed over people who are physically attractive because we associate being good-looking with being predisposed to be socially and professionally successful and just inherently superior. Whether you're consumed by lust or envy for the person, hot people ultimately don't need much of a personality at all because everyone else invents a narrative for them to their own advantage whenever that may be. Of course not all hot people are vapid blank slates, but their attractiveness means that can be an option. Beck doesn't need any defining characteristics or life goals or talent because Joe and Peach have already invented their own respective personas for her, which is in turn how the audience sees her, but when you step away from that you realize there's no there there. They're both in love with a mirage, but neither of them care because she's the physical embodiment of their fantasy. At the end of the day, everyone either wants to be beautiful or possess someone beautiful – or both. You certainly bears that out.

It's interesting to ponder, because I've definitely done that. I've had friendships/crushes where I've been completely blind to their faults because I liked looking at them.

I mean, it's something we all do, especially if we're younger. Who hasn't had a friend/crush/romantic partner that we were so bowled over by their looks/charm, etc etc that we made up this narrative in our head about how they were amazing people, and then we realize that we were in love with an image rather than a person.

That's what is brilliant about the show- it makes Joe's insanity into something we can all relate to.

Another thought I had is that Peach basically thinks that Beck is/has been a completely broke girl, but it turns out that she's not quite as broke as we thought Beck was. She might have been cut off now, but Beck basically had a father that could actually drop 500 dollars easily into her account as well as pay for a hotel room without a second thought. She might not have had access to Peach money, but I doubt Beck was ever actually that hard-up despite playing the whole scholarship kid with a dead dad angle for everybody at Brown. Knowing that Beck was getting money from what looks to be a somewhat affluent dad puts a whole spin on Peach's monologue in the pilot about how Beck shouldn't be buying Alexander McQueen because it was making her broke, even though she wants to put everybody ahead of her.

Of course, knowing what we know at this point about Beck, she didn't actually buy the Alexander McQueen. I'm betting it was something her father got her or something.

Edited January 5, 2019 by methodwriter85

[bettername2come]

"Beck, you've got a stalker." Oh, I laughed way too hard at that. And, "Oh, shit! Detectives are real and DNA is a thing!"

I hope Joe being out of shape becomes a plot point when someone outruns his crazy ass.

"He waits 24 years to get justice. What kind of message is that?" I like the kid.

[numbnut]

Finally got around to watching this but I'm midway through this ep and can't go any further. There's way too much Gossip Girl (it's mind-numbing) and not enough American Psycho.

[vavera4ka]

On 10/8/2018 at 5:40 AM, LittleIggy said:

That must have been the abridged version of the abridged version of The Count of Monte Cristo because that book is over 1000 pages long!

Came here to say that. I had to rewind to make sure after Joe said it was The Count. 

Im like. That must be CliffsNotes version. Lol