S05.E10: Girls on the Side

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Liza is distressed when she meets Caitlin's middle-aged boyfriend. Diana refuses to back down from a challenge; Josh rebrands.

Original airdate: 8/14/18

[voiceover]

Of course Diana would pretend to be Melanie Griffith on the ferry (even though she's *a little* too young to fit the Working Girl demo, I'll allow it...I thought Kate Hepburn was all that when I was 17).

Speaking of Hepburn...I have loathed that "professional woman, incompetent in the kitchen!" trope ever since I winced through the climax of Woman of the Year.  No one has to be good at everything, but couldn't Tess Harding have made Sam Craig *just* some toast & coffee? and Diana! Really?? the only seafood that needs cheese is a Filet o'Fish, fer crissakes.

At least she threw down on Enzo's mama, a move I applaud.

As re: the Charles & Liza separation: she has a point.  And we have two more episodes and probably another season.  Though I hate that I don't get to have fun longer.  Because they sure do kiss good.

Edited August 15, 2018 by voiceover

[sashayshante]

Christ. They keep Liza and Charles together for three episodes then break them up?

 

What a waste of Laura Benanti.

[HunterHunted]

13 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Speaking of Hepburn...I have loathed that "professional woman, incompetent in the kitchen!" trope ever since I winced through the climax of Woman of the Year.  No one has to be good at everything, but couldn't Tess Harding have made Sam Craig *just* some toast & coffee? and Diana! Really?? the only seafood that needs cheese is a Filet o'Fish, fer crissakes.

At least she threw down on Enzo's mama, a move I applaud.

Seriously demanding that Diana cook and make eels was a dumb hoary old trope. The only decent thing about this plot was giving his mom the what for.

I cannot stand Caitlin. She is this dumb entitled princess who makes terrible choices who basically demands that the world spin around her. There are many many reasons why schools do not want their students involved with faculty. They can turn coercive and power imbalance can leave the student feeling like they have no recourse for reporting it. And literally his friends are going to think he's a complete dope who is dragging this insufferable 20 year old with him.

Charles and Liza's relationship shouldn't becoming up at work because it's completely unprofessional.

[dubbel zout]

9 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

Seriously demanding that Diana cook and make eels was a dumb hoary old trope. The only decent thing about this plot was giving his mom the what for.

I know. What if Diana hadn't brought an Italian dish, would Enzo's mom still have ragged on her? It's so stupid. I don't like how Enzo's mom was the worst kind of stereotype, either.

Next time: Martha Plimpton! I love her, and her character was great.

[Jeopardy15]

Josh is a whiny baby who is still pining for Liza long after their breakup and being in another relationship. They really do need to get rid of him. 

[chybee23]

Diana is always a bright spot. I could do without seeing Caitlin ever again - she's pretty awful and meddles too much and she and the professor were just obnoxious - but, the scene we got out of it between she and Liza was very well done. It's nice getting to see her be a mom every now and then. 

Josh has zero business berating Liza about what's real. It just felt to me like another instance of him manipulating her propensity for feeling guilt hoping she'd fall back into his arms, and she always just stands there and lets him scold her. He's serviced better away from Liza so I'm so freaking glad they've indicated him moving on because the idea that his world began and ended with Liza is silly and detrimental to his growth. He's got his whole life ahead of him. 

It's not a good time for Liza and Charles for two reasons: 1) Everything Charles has on his plate and 2) They caught each other at time in which she's ready to unburden herself of the lies. A season ago, I think she would have been more sensitive to the situation and his reasoning. One of aspects of their relationships I really do like, though, is that he might be the only person on the show she stands up to. Glad she knows her worth. I think Charles genuinely wants to be with her, and I don't think he's wrong for he's wrong for wanting to keep work and their relationship separate because anyone should, nor do I blame him for being hyper aware of the implications their relationship will have on different aspects of their lives, and they've communicated, but he probably should've waited to be with her until it was manageable. On the other hand, his passiveness was considered a problem, so I'm not sure that waiting would've been a good look either? Looking forward to them working through it in the next couple episodes. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by chybee23

[BellyLaughter]

Really show?? 3 episodes before the first road block??  Really?? 

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I know. What if Diana hadn't brought an Italian dish, would Enzo's mom still have ragged on her? It's so stupid. I don't like how Enzo's mom was the worst kind of stereotype, either.

I think Enzo's mom was just looking for a reason to rag on Diana because she doesn't want to part with her son.   I thought making her work with that eel was an attempt to encourage failure.  Even if Diana could cook lasagna it doesn't mean she can cook eel.  I'm a pretty good home cook and I've never killed and cooked eel, although I remember my grandmother doing it.  I just think his mother was looking for a way to make her fail because she really doesn't want her son to leave her.

I'm Italian American from "borough" New York and I didn't like the stereotype either, especially having known many such Italian moms (including my own) and feeling like the way Enzo's mom acted didn't ring true.  Most Italians are flattered that you'd even make an attempt to cook their food, and wouldn't be insulted if you somehow just didn't get it quite right.  They would laugh it off and tell you that they can teach you.  If it was motivated by fear of losing her son, she would likely have not made such a negative scene at all but acted passive aggressive toward Diana and make snide comments here and there while keeping a smile on her face and trying to appear accepting of  her.

Loved the nod and wink to "Working Girl", though!

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, voiceover said:

the only seafood that needs cheese is a Filet o'Fish, fer crissakes.

Oh yeah, that's another thing that didn't ring true for me - While Italians from Italy are hung up on the "no cheese on seafood" rule, Italian Americans are a totally different story, and are mostly easy going about it.  Some don't prefer it, but they don't generally act like it's a mortal sin to grate some cheese over a seafood pasta.  I love PBS Sicilian chef Nick Stellino's story about how he really knows he's an Italian American now because he has loosened up about putting cheese on seafood.

[retrograde]

I doubt they'll stay broken up for even the whole next episode, but I think it's right for the show to force some action on the "secret relationship" front. Liza's too old for that shit, but it is also hard to imagine them being open about it at work given the power imbalance, so something has gotta give. My guess is Liza quits to work at a different publisher at the end of the season, and that'll be the set-up for the next season.

Shut up, Josh. Him still holding a candle for Liza is all on him (and maybe Caitlin). She hasn't encouraged his affections, and wasn't obliged to divulge a new relationship that's only, what, a month old? 

Edited August 15, 2018 by retrograde

[voiceover]

Tonight's ep trafficked in Italian mama cartoons and 80s movies.  Which made me think of Moonstruck, and Olympia Dukakis's Oscar-winning turn as Rose Castorini.  Her Italian mama longed for widowed daughter Loretta (Cher) to remain in the family home, and did push the guilt button a couple of times, but she was also gracious to her daughter's beaux -- even the one who wasn't supposed to be ("You got a love bite on your neck!").*

But this is regression.  I think Darren Star has mother ish.  All of the SATC moms were overbearing or mean-spirited cartoons.

Maybe the tattoo-repairer is the perfect girl for Josh.  I like the symbolism; plus it's about time he peeled off that symbol of lost love.

*eta: Obviously hearing "Let the River Run" sent me into some kind of TCM-crossover coma.  For which I apologize.

Edited August 15, 2018 by voiceover

[Gothish520]

I can't kick Josh for still having feelings for Liza. He loves her and never wanted the breakup. They had great chemistry and a great relationship, aside from Lisa's lies, of course. She still looks at him with regret - there is a part of her that misses him and what they had. But it's good that Josh has taken that symbolic step, getting the tattoo changed - it's time to move on.

And bully for Liza laying it out for Charles - put up or shut up dude. Sure, sneaking around can be fun and exciting, but that crap gets old quick.

[Aulty]

I didn't care for the overbearing italian mother (or the 'If I'm being honest, I live with my mom because its more convenient and I like being a pampered and spoiled mama's boy') stereotype, if you are paid for writing try to think of something new ffs!
Oh Josh, just shut up and move on. Great that you are honest about everything, but you would sing a differnt tune if you had a child to support and your chosen profession wasn't on a high. Lets talk again in 10 years when everyone tries to ged rid of their tattoo sleeves again. Why was he even at brunch with Caitlin and her BF?

Peter Hermann still can't kiss on screen, but I liked the interaction between them in Charles' office and the smooched giraffe doodle - Liza really likes him.

I also think that the seperation may be reversed before the end of the season after they burst The Bubble so early.

If Charles, Kelsey and Liza do indeed come up with the idea of Liza writing a book about her experience, they can pretend as if it was an experiment, that they were all in the know from the beginning and that would give a reason as to why they kept it from Diana and Lauren. On the other hand, if this comes up in the last two episodes of the season, it more or less confirms that season 6 will be the shows last :-(

Edited August 15, 2018 by Aulty
edit and regroup :-)

[bichonblitz]

6 hours ago, Jeopardy15 said:

Josh is a whiny baby who is still pining for Liza long after their breakup and being in another relationship.

Which would never happen IRL with a young hot guy and an older woman. He would have been done with her a long time ago. He sure doesn't mind throwing his jabs at Liza repeatedly telling her she's a worthless liar. If he resents her so much then move on already.

Edited August 15, 2018 by bichonblitz

[MissEwa]

4 hours ago, Aulty said:

Peter Hermann still can't kiss on screen

It was like he was trying to avoid her lips and so went for her chin instead. Very weird. 

I am (obviously) not on Team Charles but even I thought that was sudden. I know these seasons are short but it just felt really jarring to break them up so soon, especially after all that build-up.

I think I prefer Josh away from Liza now, although I do like their friendship - when it is a friendship and not him being jealous of Charles or pining for her. Also that dragon tattoo looked old and faded and not like something worthy of compliments on the linework. 

[skotnikov]

Diana needs a spin off. 

Everything else was pretty boring. Sometimes it feels like writers have Alzheimer because it felt like I've seen all this – Josh going away and "moving on", Charles & Liza's "break up", cougar writer who's hot for Charles – already. 

[gesundheit]

Normally I love Josh, but even I thought that was an overreaction. Glad he seems to be trying a bit harder to move on, though. As for Diana, she's so awesome. At first I was like "Woman, just tell her that you like to cook but have never cooked eel! It's not that hard!" but then we got the payoff of her telling Enzo's mother where to shove it. Works for me! Anyway. Not enough Maggie or Lauren.

(Oh and I totally would've put cheese on that dish. Like Diana said, it's pasta!)

[Beantown Gal]

Here are my thoughts on last nights episode:

I feel like Kelsey was trying to deliberately mess with Charles & Liza's relationship by emphasizing his status as single when Quinn inquired. Liza's response was very professional with a hint of "bitch mind your damn business", how did she say it: nothing publicly? However she worded it - it was spot on. Speaking of Quinn, I realize she is suppose to be this real go-getter and aggressive personality and probably doesn't care what people think of her, but to me that seemed a very unprofessional question to ask. I mean she's all about think of number one and no one else, and do what you want. So why bother asking?

I'm not so sure Charles & Liza were keeping things as secret as they think they were. When have we ever seen Liza sit in Charles' office, especially by herself for any length of time The exchanges (in his office) have always been very quick and didn't warrant her to sit. That is something I feel other employees would definitely notice including her relaxed demeanor since she was always kind of "on guard" when she was around him in the past. And did anyone else feel like Diana is sort of picking up hints about Charles & Liza? I thought she might have listened for a minute to their conversation before she barged into his office.

I do understand why Charles was to keep his relationship with Liza a secret especially where Quinn is concerned, I'm sure she would pull her financial investment once she knew she was out of the running relationship wise, and if that is the case that is a dick move.

Caitlin needs to go away. I don't find her to be an enjoyable character.  

[MissLucas]

Well, I have notes:

Quinn, or rather Laura Benanti, needs a better plot.

Caitlin needs a serious reality-check.

Josh needs to move on romantically (also: a hot looking guy like Josh and nobody has been putting her moves on him for months? In the middle of NY? Maybe Tattoo Fixer girl can fix him too).

Maggie needs to keep her hair like this.

Kelsey needs to drop her passive-aggressive attitude.

Liza needs to move on professionally. She already had good offers.

Charles needs to get through with his divorce and finally get Empirical up and running again (those were his two excuses for not fully committing).

Diana and Enzo need a spin-off.

The writers need to burn their Handbook of Ye Old Stereotype.

Edited August 15, 2018 by MissLucas

[morakot]

I know Josh is problematic but he gives much better full-body hugs than Charles does. Oh, and when he's in relationship, he's pretty public about it. 

[Gothish520]

32 minutes ago, morakot said:

I know Josh is problematic but he gives much better full-body hugs than Charles does. Oh, and when he's in relationship, he's pretty public about it. 

There is a world of difference between Josh and Charles. Josh is so laid-back, fun, and has a zest for life - and Charles is so buttoned-up, serious, and staid. Perhaps Liza and Josh are better off as just friends, but as far as who I prefer personality-wise, there is no contest - Josh wins, hands down.

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

And bully for Liza laying it out for Charles - put up or shut up dude. Sure, sneaking around can be fun and exciting, but that crap gets old quick.

Sneaking around at first was because they were in the bubble, and I was okay with that. But now it's gross that Charles wants to keep things under wraps because it might affect a business deal. If a relationship has to stay secret, there's something wrong.

[thesupremediva1]

My friend is visiting and I subjected him to Younger for the first time last night. I gave no plot summary and waited for his unfiltered reactions. They're transcribed below:

Enzo and Diana scenes: "Yay, more Italian-American stereotypes! Do they know that we only live with our parents if they're ill or we're broke?"

Josh and Liza at brunch: "So is he her stepdad or her ex-boyfriend?" (In reference to Caitlyn) "Why does he care so much? Ohhh he dated the mom! Yeah I thought they looked too cozy. So they're together. No? It sure looks like it."

Liza and Charles in front of her apartment: "OMG he just swallowed her jaw. Ew. Why is she's dating her boss and playing the victim?"

And finally, over and over again: "No one believes this woman is 26."

[morakot]

I think it's also about the divorce too.

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, thesupremediva1 said:

My friend is visiting and I subjected him to Younger for the first time last night. I gave no plot summary and waited for his unfiltered reactions. They're transcribed below:

Enzo and Diana scenes: "Yay, more Italian-American stereotypes! Do they know that we only live with our parents if they're ill or we're broke?"

Josh and Liza at brunch: "So is he her stepdad or her ex-boyfriend?" (In reference to Caitlyn) "Why does he care so much? Ohhh he dated the mom! Yeah I thought they looked too cozy. So they're together. No? It sure looks like it."

Liza and Charles in front of her apartment: "OMG he just swallowed her jaw. Ew. Why is she's dating her boss and playing the victim?"

And finally, over and over again: "No one believes this woman is 26."

LOL, your friend pretty much nailed it!

[julia1130]

I thought the Charles/Liza relationship had to stay a secret more because it would put a spotlight on her - and her AGE!

A) I doubt Charles would be dating her if she was 27 - does he want everyone to think he’s dating someone that much younger?

B) Liza would certainly end up in the press (how did she not after Kelsey’s Glamour Award?!?!) and someone would out her as a liar.

So she would definitely have to come out as 40 to make the relationship public...

[bichonblitz]

Enzo playing the spoiled Italian son who has been sheltered living at his momma's all his life.  You did a porno, dude!! Does mama know about that? Gimme a break. 

[Moxie Cat]

3 hours ago, thesupremediva1 said:

And finally, over and over again: "No one believes this woman is 26."

Best line of the night (that wasn't Diana's): "Have they seen you in the daylight?"

I love Sutton and Caitlin is a pill, but YEAH.

[sadtvjunkie]

Is anybody else noticing how mush mouthed Charles sounds? Did he get veneers or new teeth and can't figure out how to speak around them? It's so noticeable to me.

[Gothish520]

6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Sneaking around at first was because they were in the bubble, and I was okay with that. But now it's gross that Charles wants to keep things under wraps because it might affect a business deal. If a relationship has to stay secret, there's something wrong.

I have to say, I am shocked that the writers think that the way they have written Charles makes him attractive. Not talking about looks at all (though I don't think he's all that), just his whole demeanor, which I find rather off-putting. What the heck is it about his personality that makes Liza so attracted to him? She is so much more relaxed and fun when she is around Josh and her friends than she is when she's around Charles. At least Big on SatC had a sense of humor and a bit of personality. 

[MissEwa]

38 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I have to say, I am shocked that the writers think that the way they have written Charles makes him attractive.

I came to Younger a little late and I was at the end of Season 1 when a friend asked me if I was Team Josh or Team Charles and I was so confused that there was a Team Charles. Not just in the fandom but I hadn't seen anything about him in the show that made me think 'romantic lead' at all. I still don't get it. 

Part of it, I guess, is something that someone touched on here in the forums a few weeks ago. I feel like if she ends up with Charles it's basically her going back to her old life of wife and mother, but with an upgraded partner. He's a safe, conventional option. With Josh she was out of her comfort zone but I think happier and more interesting. 

[chitowngirl]

And from the shallow end of the pool-wash your hair Caitlin

[LuvMyShows]

18 hours ago, Aulty said:

Why was he even at brunch with Caitlin and her BF?

IKR?  It made absolutely no sense (other than as a plot advancement device).

 

51 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

And from the shallow end of the pool-wash your hair Caitlin

I noticed that, as well as that her eyes looked terrible, like she had huge dark circles under and around them.

[morakot]

I was thinking back to Season 1(?) when Liza first babysat for Charles. That's when I saw a spark between them --  but it went out for me.

[Yeah No]

8 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

Enzo playing the spoiled Italian son who has been sheltered living at his momma's all his life.  You did a porno, dude!! Does mama know about that? Gimme a break. 

The thing is, the way they've written Enzo's character, he's not the right type to be that sheltered momma's boy, so it feels off and not true to reality.  And besides, this:

11 hours ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Enzo and Diana scenes: "Yay, more Italian-American stereotypes! Do they know that we only live with our parents if they're ill or we're broke?"

I'm glad I'm not the only one calling out the Italian American stereotypes.  Enough already!  What I want to know is why it's still OK in movies and TV to do that with Italians, even in our PC culture?  Pisses me off.

[Yeah No]

21 hours ago, voiceover said:

Tonight's ep trafficked in Italian mama cartoons and 80s movies.  Which made me think of Moonstruck, and Olympia Dukakis's Oscar-winning turn as Rose Castorini.  Her Italian mama longed for widowed daughter Loretta (Cher) to remain in the family home, and did push the guilt button a couple of times, but she was also gracious to her daughter's beaux -- even the one who wasn't supposed to be ("You got a love bite on your neck!").*

But this is regression.  I think Darren Star has mother ish.  All of the SATC moms were overbearing or mean-spirited cartoons.

I thought the same thing about Moonstruck after watching this episode.  It would definitely have been the guilt button and fake niceness as opposed to what we saw.

21 hours ago, Aulty said:

Peter Hermann still can't kiss on screen

So true.  It makes me think of other male stars that can't kiss on screen.  I just re-watched the original "Thomas Crown Affair" and actually in that famous chess scene Steve McQueen's kissing is a little awkward too.  Of course, the scene is hot anyway despite that.  Peter Hermann comes off as stiff as a lover.  It goes beyond the bad TV kissing.  He approaches it like a doctor doing a gynelogical exam.  He tries to appear unaffected but comes off as really, really uncomfortable about having to kiss a woman other than his real life wife - and it shows.

13 hours ago, Beantown Gal said:

Caitlin needs to go away. I don't find her to be an enjoyable character.  

I have come to the conclusion that Caitlin's entire purpose in this series is to be as embarrassing and annoying to her mother as she can possibly be.

11 hours ago, morakot said:

I think it's also about the divorce too.

If you're talking about the secretiveness, I agree.  I once dated a guy in the middle of a divorce and he always acted cagey about getting together with me in public until the divorce was final.  But objectively, there are a lot of reasons why not going public just yet is probably the best idea, as much as I hate to admit that because the show has dicked us around so much with their relationship that I'm like ENOUGH ALREADY.

[dubbel zout]

3 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

21 hours ago, Aulty said:

Why was he even at brunch with Caitlin and her BF?

IKR?  It made absolutely no sense (other than as a plot advancement device).

Caitlin and Josh are friends, and I think she's trying to get him and Liza back together? I kind of enjoyed his shared distaste for Caitlin and her prof boyfriend.

[sashayshante]

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

The thing is, the way they've written Enzo's character, he's not the right type to be that sheltered momma's boy, so it feels off and not true to reality.  And besides, this:

I'm glad I'm not the only one calling out the Italian American stereotypes.  Enough already!  What I want to know is why it's still OK in movies and TV to do that with Italians, even in our PC culture?  Pisses me off.

Don't get me started. As much as I loved ACS Versace, there was absolutely no justifiable reason why Italian actors weren't cast to play Gianni, Donatella and Anthony. Even Cunanan's character was cast with an actor of the same ethnicity (Filipino.) I remember when the Scaramucci thing was trending. Nobody thought twice to make mafia and gangster jokes, even celebrities like Rosie O'Donnell. Chris Cuomo finally spoke up and said how offensive it was. Until we make more of a stink about it, people will think the generalizations and stereotypes are okay.

I didn't blink when I saw that Enzo lived with his mother. I know so many Italian men that live at home well into adulthood. Although I originally hoped his Mom lived with him and not vice versa. But, yeah, the overbearing screechy Italian mother thing is a tired trope, as was the use of "bruddah" for brother. Cause, like, we're stupid and ignorant and Joe Pesci once said "youts" instead of youths that one time.

[dmc]

So let me get this straight, liza who spent the last two years lying to everyone and asking people to lie for her-can’t be anyone’s secret until their divorce is settled...double standard 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 8/14/2018 at 11:27 PM, Aulty said:

Why was he even at brunch with Caitlin and her BF?

In last week's episode, Caitlin and Josh were hanging out together and she told him not to give up on Liza. I think that refueled his not quite dimmed feelings for Liza and made him start actively thinking that he had a chance to rekindle their relationship.

In this episode when Liza suggested brunch with Caitlin and her boyfriend, Caitlin said she would invite Josh too. Caitlin was trying to make it seem like it would be less awkward if someone else was there, but I think Caitlin still had her Liza+Josh agenda and saw an opportunity to bring them together and thought that it could be a double date.

I was glad that Josh didn't approve of Caitlin's relationship with her professor too. Dating students is against the rules for a reason! Didn't she watch that storyline with Ross and Elizabeth on Friends?

But the way Josh immediately attacked Liza for having the nerve not yo tell him she was dating someone else made me so mad. Yes, she's your ex and she's still your friend, but that doesn't mean she is obligated to tell you ANYTHING (and not just about who she's dating). I'm not saying it's healthy to be in a secret relationship, but does Josh think that she is supposed to call/text/DM him immediately every time she starts dating someone? Did she tell him when she started seeing the Buzzfeed writer? His rant was less about her being honest about her relationship with Charles and more about Josh being blindsided by the fact that she wasn't just sitting around waiting for the day when they finally get back together. This is exactly why I think Liza needs to pull a Kelly Taylor and choose herself instead of Josh or Charles.

I like that Diana has been making an effort not to be so stuck in her ways, like taking the ferry. And I thought it was nice of her to try to make the eel dish (especially in her cute outfit!) because of course you should try to get along with your boyfriend's mom. But I was SO glad when she said she'd had it with his mother and that she wasn't going to let her just shit all over her. At least Diana got to hear what Enzo's mother really thinks about her. It sucks to hear, but now it's all out in the open. I hope Enzo told his mom to butt out and be nice to Diana. Yes, Diana is perfectly capable of standing up for herself, but she shouldn't have to do it by herself. He should speak up and tell his mother that he cares about Diana and therefore he expects his family to treat her with respect.

Edited August 16, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Cache]

I'm naive, but...Wasn't Liza sending a mixed signal at the tattoo parlor party when she said her tattoo still meant something  to her?

Guess I just like Liza & Josh so much better than L & Charles.  Sad Josh is having the tattoo redone.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't remember exactly what she said, but the tattoo can still mean something to her without being in love with Josh anymore or wanting to get back together with him. I have things that still mean something to me even after a relationship ended but I have no desire to ever be with those people again. I still have a ring that one of my high school boyfriends gave to me. He is a nice person and we are still friends. I remember our time together fondly but we broke up for a reason! Just because you aren't having a romantic/sexual relationship anymore doesn't mean that you lose all sentimentality about the person, the moments you shared, or the tangible stuff that you acquired during your time together. I'm guessing Liza meant that she doesn't regret dating Josh or letting him tattoo her, but it doesn't mean that she has any intention of being more than friends with him.

[dubbel zout]

Liza's tattoo was her first, right? Besides it being a reminder of her time with Josh, it probably also represents the first time she was on her own (so to speak), so I think it's not so unusual she decided to keep it. Josh as a ton of tattoos and they all seem to mean something to him, and given his unrequited yearnings for Liza at the moment, I'm not surprised he's decided to redo it. He's really sentimental in a lot of ways Liza isn't about their time together.

Tl; dr: How they're both dealing with their tattoos feels in character to me.

[MoreCoffeePlease]

Kelsey also needs to fire her makeup artist!  Her face was a strange shade of orange compared to her neck.

Caitlin's boyfriend played a creeper on Dexter ... she is lucky that she got out alive.

I am totally in on a Diana spinoff show.  How can we make that happen?!?

[Beantown Gal]

21 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

Best line of the night (that wasn't Diana's): "Have they seen you in the daylight?"

I love Sutton and Caitlin is a pill, but YEAH.

I was trying to include the quote from @thesupremediva1 about how nobody was believing this woman is 26 but I could figure out how to do it (technologically challenged, lol).

Uh Caitlin dear, you really shouldn't make snide comments about your mother's appearance, especially since YOU look like a middle aged woman! Your mother looks a 1000x younger/prettier than you.

[MissLucas]

37 minutes ago, MoreCoffeePlease said:

Kelsey also needs to fire her makeup artist!  Her face was a strange shade of orange compared to her neck.

Caitlin's boyfriend played a creeper on Dexter ... she is lucky that she got out alive.

I am totally in on a Diana spinoff show.  How can we make that happen?!?

He! Second week in a row that I noticed orange Kelsey. Hilary Duff definitely needs to bring flowers and chocolate to the make-up department.

As for the whole Josh/Charles debate. In the beginning of the show it looked definitely like Charles was the endgame. But I feel as if the writers somehow neglected to develop the character over the last couple of seasons. What was somewhat charming diffidence has become outright drabness interjected with occasional spats of jealousy/pouting/passion and it's not a good look. All the while the chemistry between Liza and Josh remained sizzling (YMMV) but Josh wants a family and that is a giant roadblock that can't be easily removed. So, yeah I'm also hoping for Liza to pull a Kelly.

[morakot]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Josh wants a family and that is a giant roadblock that can't be easily removed

True, but marrying Charles gives her an insta-family (with the added excitement of Pauline as the bio-mom and ex-wife). And you know that Liza is going to be the one looking after them (and/or dealing with their nannies).  

Ooh, ooh, ooh - she could marry Charles, then he and Pauline die in a plane crash, she gets custody of the girls, marries Josh who gets a family and Liza doesn't have to go through childbirth again. Win Win Win. ;-)

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, morakot said:

True, but marrying Charles gives her an insta-family (with the added excitement of Pauline as the bio-mom and ex-wife). And you know that Liza is going to be the one looking after them (and/or dealing with their nannies).  

Ooh, ooh, ooh - she could marry Charles, then he and Pauline die in a plane crash, she gets custody of the girls, marries Josh who gets a family and Liza doesn't have to go through childbirth again. Win Win Win. ;-)

Sounds perfect - but I'd put Caitlin in that plane too. I recently saw a rerun of the episode where she frantically called Liza begging for money since deadbeat Dad had not sent any. So all these years she took mom's money and never wondered where it came from? Seriously the dialogue in this episode made it sound as if this was the first time she ever heard about Liza working in publishing - what exactly did Liza tell her she was doing before? I can't remember but she must have given some explanation. Regardless, her reaction when Liza told her the truth was so ungracious and ungrateful. Maggie looked as if she was about to give her a piece of her mind but sadly nothing happened. Add to that her weird request for a family reunion for Christmas a couple of weeks back and this week's idiocy of dating a professor and I'm all for her getting a ticket for that plane-ride!

[chybee23]

21 hours ago, MissEwa said:

I came to Younger a little late and I was at the end of Season 1 when a friend asked me if I was Team Josh or Team Charles and I was so confused that there was a Team Charles. Not just in the fandom but I hadn't seen anything about him in the show that made me think 'romantic lead' at all. I still don't get it. 

Part of it, I guess, is something that someone touched on here in the forums a few weeks ago. I feel like if she ends up with Charles it's basically her going back to her old life of wife and mother, but with an upgraded partner. He's a safe, conventional option. With Josh she was out of her comfort zone but I think happier and more interesting. 

I never thought Liza was all that happy with Josh after season one. After he found out her age, there was a lot of uncertainty wnd worry that resulted Josh not being comfortable with her secret, and usually Liza was the one on the outside while he grappled with it. And as their relationship progressed and he spent more time bringing up a future between them, she looked liked she dreaded every conversation and what I’m turn she was possibly depriving him of. They had moments that were fun, there was underlying uneasiness that was constant. For all the times she contemplated ending things, I saw it as equal parts selflessness and wanting and her needing to be reprieved of the stress. And maybe that contributed to her having feelings for Charles, but in that same token something was clearly missing for her. 

I guess I see a lot more merit in her level of comfort, which I see more of in her relationship with Charles. And I find their dynamic a lot more appealing—outside of work, I find their partnership to much more equal than the one she had with Josh. I think Liza feels she can be more honest with Charles and stand her ground, and that he’s demonstrated more respect for her needs than Josh. With Josh, I feel like she doesn’t want to hurt his feelings and holds back as far as her wants are concerned. And I’m uncomfortable with the way he continues to chastise her and bring up her pst transgressions. It’s her job to set boundaries, but I find it toxic and manipulative.  

When we’ve seen Liza and Charles together for more than a few episodes, and in an open relationship, it’ll be easier to judge whether or not they can have as much fun, albeit a different type of fun that’ll be probably more aligned with what she finds enjoyable. But she looked very happy to me so far prior to what happened this past episode outside of intrusions of Pauline and Kelsey’s complaints that weren’t indicative of how she feels being with Charles. There are much less opportunities to show the two of them amongst themselves with the commitment to serving other characters with storylines in a way they didn’t have to in earlier seasons. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by chybee23