The Duggars and Their World: Fashion, Food, Finance, Schoolin’ and Child Rearin'

[GeeGolly]

Went to Google to try and argue that there isn't enough creationists to even think the Ark Encounter could possibly be a success. Glanced at a couple of articles and found out that around 40% of Americans are believers. I'm kind of shocked. Now I'm going to be looking at folks I know wondering what they believe.

[Absolom]

Isn't that appalling that so many people could possibly believe that?  I always hope that they didn't really understand the question or what it really meant to be a creationist.

[Churchhoney]

8 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I nabbed this from Pickles. Apparently, The Ark Encounter is a big fat failure and Ken Ham is blaming atheists:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2017/06/creationist-ken-ham-blames-atheists-ark-park-failure/

An overpriced tourist trap with a limited customer base in the middle of nowhere? What could possibly go wrong?

I'll take responsibility. 

4 hours ago, awaken said:

He's even framing it as a "spiritual battle". 

Everything with him is a spiritual battle. Just like the Duggars. One clear benefit of their beliefs is that, if you want, they provide you with an endless fantasy world in which you can be the hero all the time. And it's even better than a fantasy world, really, because you believe it's real. Major ego boost. 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Churchhoney said:

I'll take responsibility. 

Watch out Churchie. I can see In Touch's next headline: Churchhoney Claims Responsibility for Ark Encounter Take Down

[lascuba]

24 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Watch out Churchie. I can see In Touch's next headline: Churchhoney Claims Responsibility for Ark Encounter Take Down

I can already image the lawsuit.

[GeeGolly]

Just now, lascuba said:

I can already image the lawsuit.

Ken Ham joins Duggar girls' lawsuit because Churchhoney hurt his feelings.

[EVS]

5 hours ago, ariel said:

Is this place near a tourist destination or is it out in the middle of no wear?  Is there a chick-fil-a or a Hobby Lobby near by?

Nike! No wonder people that share the Duggar's beliefs are staying away. 

Autocorrect is fun sometimes. ;)

[duggarshow]

On 6/14/2017 at 3:37 AM, Sew Sumi said:

Probably not. They didn't discover Gothard teachings until the miscarriage between Smugs and the twins. They fully immersed into ATI later than IBLP since we know that Smuggar went to public kindergarten. In those days, I have no clue how they found the Pearls unless they were looking around at a homeschool conference before they got fully into the ATI curriculum. That's probably also how they met the Maxwells; those conferences with their stupid books were their bread and butter for years. 

 

It's a fairly common misconception that Josh Duggar attended either public or private kindergarten. In actuality, none of the Duggar children did so. They were all homeschooled.

[doodlebug]

7 hours ago, Absolom said:

Isn't that appalling that so many people could possibly believe that?  I always hope that they didn't really understand the question or what it really meant to be a creationist.

Looking at the survey, it was very loosely defined.  There were 3 options and the subject was to choose the one most consistent with their personal beliefs.  The statement that garnered 40% of the votes:

God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so.

The other options were that humans developed over millions of years with God influencing the process and the third was that God had no part in human development over millions of years..

I think they deliberately avoided the word 'evolution' and that, while there may be some who do not believe that humans have evolved over 10,000 years, those same folks wouldn't necessarily believe in literal Biblical Creationism or that humans co-existed with dinosaurs or any other such fundie claptrap. 

While it does appear that a significant portion of adults in the US don't believe in evolution, I don't think we can necessarily conclude that all of those folks are 'out there' enough to buy what the Creation Museum is selling.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/02/creationism-america-survey_n_5434107.html

[bigskygirl]

Lets circle back to the Duggars. and not debate or discuss religious type tourist attractions. Thank you.

[Sew Sumi]

9 hours ago, duggarfan said:

It's a fairly common misconception that Josh Duggar attended either public or private kindergarten. In actuality, none of the Duggar children did so. They were all homeschooled.

I'm fairly certain that it was mentioned in the first book that Smuggar went to a Christian school for kindergarten while the Duggars awaited approval into ATI.They don't write about *that* part, but back in the day, you had to complete some IBLP requirements (I believe beyond  just the Basic  Seminar) before becoming eligible to receive the ATI curriculum.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Sew Sumi
Punctuation matters

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I'm fairly certain that it was mentioned in the first book that Smuggar went to a Christian school for kindergarten while the Duggars awaited approval into ATI.They don't write about *that* part, but back in the day, you had to complete some IBLP requirements (I believe beyond  just the Basic  Seminar) before becoming eligible to receive the ATI curriculum.

Wow, imagine having to prove yourself worthy to pay money for the idiot ravings of the abusive, molesting, lying, delusional, pretentious, foot-fetishizing con artist that is BG. 

[Sew Sumi]

I went over to FJ to see if anyone remembered, and one poster confirmed that Boobchelle decided to homeschool when Smuggar was 9 months old.  I suspect this coincides with the loss of "Caleb" and their first exposure to Gothard teachings via Dr. Wheat, who is mentioned in the book as well as their "testimony." However, they still had to jump through the Gothard hoops to be cleared for what was then a very closed society once one got past the Basic Seminar. That isn't covered in either the book or their speeches 

All of this so you can teach a five year old Bankruptcy Law. ?

Edited June 16, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[ginger90]

Found this regarding choosing to homeschool

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/michelle-duggars-blog/how-duggar-family-got-hooked-homeschooling/

[Sew Sumi]

See, no mention of Gothard. But they were strictly ATI at first. I'm not sure when they branched out into supplemental curricula; the first they publicly acknowledged was Switched on Schoolhouse not long after 17 Kids began airing. They did have a few desktop computers set up when they first moved into the TTH, so maybe they were using SOS as far back as '06, just not getting a check to pimp it out on the show or social media.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[Celia Rubenstein]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

All of this so you can teach a five year old Bankruptcy Law. ?

Don't laugh.  I have the feeling that information is going to come in quite handy for several of the Duggar kids one day.

[Mollie]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

All of this so you can teach a five year old Bankruptcy Law. ?

The reason Michelle was doing that was because her sister had just filed for bankruptcy and Jim Bob and Michelle wouldn't help her out.  The real reason they wouldn't help was because Michelle's sister Evelyn Ruark is a lesbian and lives with her partner.  This was widely published at the time (2007) and this was Michelle's way of explaining why she wouldn't help.  

So, Michelle taught the kids about the evils of bankruptcy instead of giving them a Bible lesson for the day.

"But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?" 1 John 3:17

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2015/01/michelle-duggar-lesbian-sister-bankruptcy/

[Sew Sumi]

Smuggar being the first, from the looks of things. He's got that house, but how much money did he actually manage to squirrel away when they were in DC?  They actually had to pay rent on that place, and it wasn't cheap, about $3k/mo. IIRC. It's all predicated on how much Smuggar actually made, and figures have floated around ranging from upper 5 figures to low/mid 6's. 

eta to respond to Mollie's post: Gothard has Bankruptcy Law in his Wisdom Booklets. It's part and parcel of his no debt lifestyle training. Those kids have had this stuff drilled into their heads since Smuggar was little. I believe Mechelle even mentions it in an early special when homeschooling is discussed. 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[JoanArc]

Agree the bankruptcy thing isn't because of the sister. I doubt the 2007 Duggars could afford toilet paper for everyone, let alone bail out a relative.

[Mollie]

2 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

Agree the bankruptcy thing isn't because of the sister. I doubt the 2007 Duggars could afford toilet paper for everyone, let alone bail out a relative.

The Duggars were on a roll in 2007.  They had been living in the new house in Tontitown for over a year and were on the TLC payroll.  They also had lots of appearances with the kids playing violins and the parents giving talks.  Jim Bob claimed to be worth 3.5 million at the time.

[JoanArc]

29 minutes ago, Mollie said:

The Duggars were on a roll in 2007.  They had been living in the new house in Tontitown for over a year and were on the TLC payroll.  They also had lots of appearances with the kids playing violins and the parents giving talks.  Jim Bob claimed to be worth 3.5 million at the time.

Jim Bob has never claimed to be worth 3 mil - it's an outside guesstimate at best. Please cite if you have a source, otherwise. '07 was pre show post special. They had a few lucky breaks but hadn't hit it big yet, like the first couple years of the tv show.

[Sew Sumi]

They didn't even start filming 17 Kids until May 2008 (remember all that Mother of the Year crap with the ducks with all the Mother's Day symbolism and their first trip to New York?). Those episodes led off the series. I don't think they filmed anything in 2007; the last special was the trip to Disney, filmed in March 2006 when Smuggar turned 18. 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[Mollie]

22 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

They didn't even start filming 17 Kids until May 2008 (remember all that Mother of the Year crap with the ducks with all the Mother's Day symbolism and their first trip to New York?). Those episodes led off the series. I don't think they filmed anything in 2007; the last special was the trip to Disney, filmed in March 2006 when Smuggar turned 18. 

The Duggars actually began filming their reality show in 2003, as Josh and Anna Duggar’s official website states.  The first broadcast, 14 Children and Pregnant Again!, ran on September 6, 2004.

[duggarshow]

7 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I'm fairly certain that it was mentioned in the first book that Smuggar went to a Christian school for kindergarten while the Duggars awaited approval into ATI.They don't write about *that* part, but back in the day, you had to complete some IBLP requirements (I believe beyond  just the Basic  Seminar) before becoming eligible to receive the ATI curriculum.

Nope. The Duggar Family has homeschooled completely.

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/michelle-duggars-blog/how-duggar-family-got-hooked-homeschooling/

[Sew Sumi]

15 minutes ago, Mollie said:

The Duggars actually began filming their reality show in 2003, as Josh and Anna Duggar’s official website states.  The first broadcast, 14 Children and Pregnant Again!, ran on September 6, 2004.

I was referring to the weekly series. They began filming in mid-2008. 

They stoppped filming the one-off specials in 2006. 

6 minutes ago, duggarfan said:

Nope. The Duggar Family has homeschooled completely.

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/michelle-duggars-blog/how-duggar-family-got-hooked-homeschooling/

@duggarfan I admitted my error above, and an article was posted (actually, the same one you posted) about their decisions by @ginger90 that confirmed what I'd learned. Again, no mention of Gothard or ATI, which is misleading. Mechelle makes it seem as if they are using curricula used by large populations of homeschoolers, not the narrow confines of Gothard, which is how they started. 

[Marigold]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I was referring to the weekly series. They began filming in mid-2008. 

They stoppped filming the one-off specials in 2006. 

@duggarfan I admitted my error above, and an article was posted (actually, the same one you posted) about their decisions by @ginger90 that confirmed what I'd learned. Again, no mention of Gothard or ATI, which is misleading. Mechelle makes it seem as if they are using curricula used by large populations of homeschoolers, not the narrow confines of Gothard, which is how they started. 

To be fair, most homeschoolers use a mix of curriculum.  Michelle probably used ATI plus other stuff and then switched around.  Especially back then when online classes, computers etc weren't available. Notice how the Duggs were the first family to jump on that SOS curriculum.  Just push "go" and put the kid on the computer.  Michelle started to really check out after that. Prior, she was forced to actually DO something, even it is was not enough. 

I should look at the ATI stuff and really try to figure it out.  I think you have to be registered with ATI to look at their curriculum.  My only exposure to it was years ago (maybe 2000?) when I was IFB and bumped into some families using it.  I truly thought it was a joke. 

 

Edit: I just looked it up.  You can view ONE wisdom book but for a mere $675, you can join ATI and then you get their entire curriculum in the mail.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  What dumb ass would buy a curriculum without really studying it and seeing if it was right for your child.  It doesn't give scope and sequence.  No method. No educational style.  No mention of anything.  Just the $675 and the application.  

Edited June 17, 2017 by Marigold
Add Info

[RazzleberryPie]

11 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I'm fairly certain that it was mentioned in the first book that Smuggar went to a Christian school for kindergarten while the Duggars awaited approval into ATI.They don't write about *that* part, but back in the day, you had to complete some IBLP requirements (I believe beyond  just the Basic  Seminar) before becoming eligible to receive the ATI curriculum.

This is what I thought, too. The omit the part about josh's brief stint in Christian kindergarten. 

Also he bankruptcy stuff is in one of the wisdom booklets. Nothing to do with Michelle's sister. 

[Sew Sumi]

1 hour ago, Marigold said:

To be fair, most homeschoolers use a mix of curriculum.  Michelle probably used ATI plus other stuff and then switched around.  Especially back then when online classes, computers etc weren't available. Notice how the Duggs were the first family to jump on that SOS curriculum.  Just push "go" and put the kid on the computer.  Michelle started to really check out after that. Prior, she was forced to actually DO something, even it is was not enough. 

I should look at the ATI stuff and really try to figure it out.  I think you have to be registered with ATI to look at their curriculum.  My only exposure to it was years ago (maybe 2000?) when I was IFB and bumped into some families using it.  I truly thought it was a joke. 

 

Edit: I just looked it up.  You can view ONE wisdom book but for a mere $675, you can join ATI and then you get their entire curriculum in the mail.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  What dumb ass would buy a curriculum without really studying it and seeing if it was right for your child.  It doesn't give scope and sequence.  No method. No educational style.  No mention of anything.  Just the $675 and the application.  

That almost sounds like desperation for little Davey Waller (head of ATI). You used to have to go through the IBLP Basic Seminar and I think some other Gothard courses before you could even catch a whiff at the ATI curriculum, complete with Bankruptcy Law! Someone on Recovering Grace posted pages of it some time ago. As @Marigold stated, it's garbage. 

[Churchhoney]

12 hours ago, Mollie said:

The reason Michelle was doing that was because her sister had just filed for bankruptcy and Jim Bob and Michelle wouldn't help her out.  The real reason they wouldn't help was because Michelle's sister Evelyn Ruark is a lesbian and lives with her partner.  This was widely published at the time (2007) and this was Michelle's way of explaining why she wouldn't help.  

So, Michelle taught the kids about the evils of bankruptcy instead of giving them a Bible lesson for the day.

"But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?" 1 John 3:17

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2015/01/michelle-duggar-lesbian-sister-bankruptcy/

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's not completely true. She may have been inspired by that to pick that Wisdom Booklet for that day or something. But all the wisdom booklets trade in using often ridiculous, unsuitable for kids and often completely factually wrong "real world" "examples" to "clarify" and preach the various Gothard "principles," which is what they're for.

They're not even bible books so much as they're insane indoctrination books into Gothard's insane ideas about the bible. Supposedly these "examples" will "clarify" Gothard's nutso "principles" for living for children, since the "examples" are so "concrete." Yeah, right. And then the parents can claim that the kids "learned" about the concrete-example material, too. Which is often insane. The "science" examples, for example. Wowza. 

Anyway, Wisdom Booklet 35 uses bankruptcy law. There's a copy here  https://homeschoolersanonymous.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/wisdom-booklet-35-p1743-1794.pdf

And you'll notice that the same book that uses bankruptcy law -- which kids will certainly know about! -- to explain "forgiveness" -- which is so abstract that kids need to learn about it through the lens of their knowledge of bankruptcy law! -- also uses "accounting" as another clear, concrete example to "explain" Gothard's insane views of "forgiveness." (which include the hair-raising idea about how somebody who feels wronged has to forgive the wronger or else the devil will claim the soul of the wronged person.... hence, people standing up in church and "forgiving" their sexual abusers, and so on....No special pleading there from a molester, eh?) 

You can see a bunch of the original books here.    https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2015/05/31/wisdom-booklet-archive-index/

Now you, too, can learn the whole curriculum! 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Churchhoney

[queenanne]

Well, at least they save it until Book 35!!

I dunno, I have a pretty strong feeling that 5-year-olds don't need to be learning about "debt" and won't in fact understand anything about it, considering they're probably going to get "lending" mixed up with "sharing"; but if she taught it to the littles that stupidity is on Michelle, which actually sounds about right based on prior examples of what we know about her thought process ("Hey, if it's good treatment for sixteen-year-olds it's gotta be equally good for first-graders, right?").

[Churchhoney]

Interesting conversation on the Whiz Bees here -- Some folks were thinking of trying them out because they admire the Duggar kids' fabulous character. (admittedly, this was before Joshgate). And then some former ATIers chime in with their views.    http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/183606-atis-wisdom-booklets/

[GeeGolly]

14 minutes ago, queenanne said:

Well, at least they save it until Book 35!!

I dunno, I have a pretty strong feeling that 5-year-olds don't need to be learning about "debt" and won't in fact understand anything about it, considering they're probably going to get "lending" mixed up with "sharing"; but if she taught it to the littles that stupidity is on Michelle, which actually sounds about right based on prior examples of what we know about her thought process ("Hey, if it's good treatment for sixteen-year-olds it's gotta be equally good for first-graders, right?").

When my kids were that age we had to role-play how money got into the "bank box" (ATMs), to help them realize it wasn't money making machine just waiting for folks to come by and get some. My oldest, who around 7 at the time, thought we should cut out the middleman and that it would be smarter if "Daddy just took home the money he earned from working".

We would have needed a much larger cast to role-play credit, credit cards, loans, defaults, etc and a more mature audience to understand it. Anyway, I figure my oldest would have said something like, "It would be smarter just to use the money you already have or pay it back if you borrow it. Cuz, you know kids - concrete thinking.

[queenanne]

26 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

When my kids were that age we had to role-play how money got into the "bank box" (ATMs), to help them realize it wasn't money making machine just waiting for folks to come by and get some. My oldest, who around 7 at the time, thought we should cut out the middleman and that it would be smarter if "Daddy just took home the money he earned from working".

We would have needed a much larger cast to role-play credit, credit cards, loans, defaults, etc and a more mature audience to understand it. Anyway, I figure my oldest would have said something like, "It would be smarter just to use the money you already have or pay it back if you borrow it. Cuz, you know kids - concrete thinking.

OK, I officially love that story.

[Churchhoney]

Was just reading this ten-year-old account from a once-homeschooling mother that, to me, shows the desperate desire for safety and control that leads people to stuff like Gothard and to certain styles of homeschooling and childrearing. Except for the massive work ethic and much more respect for education and training in this account, a lot of this is similar to Duggar approaches, I can just feel this mother's fear and rigidity rising off the page. Picked it up because it's a family I've been aware of and it was decimated a few days ago by a double murder and attempted suicide. Safety was not forthcoming no matter how much she tried to engineer it.  And despite being very bent on confining their children, they weren't as confining as the Duggars, allowing at least three of the four kids to go off to college -- the two oldest now live in other states -- and as teens they were allowed to participate in homeschool debate, for example. All the struggle for control ended up being for nought, though.  Second-youngest boy, now age 25, killed his mother and younger brother and tried to kill himself but survived. Depressing.  Not just what happened, but the amount of fear of the world that the mother expresses here, to me.  Obviously there's a kind of personality that's just scared crapless of anything that isn't totally predictable and will go to huge lengths to shut out the unpredictable and new, it seems.

  http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:blbGVpi6jqkJ:stockdalefamilyband.com/stockdale-family-manual/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Churchhoney

[AUgirl]

12 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

You used to have to go through the IBLP Basic Seminar and I think some other Gothard courses before you could even catch a whiff at the ATI curriculum, complete with Bankruptcy Law! Someone on Recovering Grace posted pages of it some time ago. As @Marigold stated, it's garbage.

Sounds like Scientology to me--more courses and more $$$ equal more "knowledge".

[Churchhoney]

8 minutes ago, AUgirl said:

Sounds like Scientology to me--more courses and more $$$ equal more "knowledge".

Gothard's pretty much the same kind of con artist as Hubbard, I'd say.

Just slightly different means of avoiding public detection. Gothard chose the cover of always-trusted-in-the-U.S. Christianity to hide his pure cynical grifting and power trips. Hubbard chose to get a bunch of celebs on board and flatter them so their fame and support of him could make him look palatable and attractive to the rubes. Otherwise, pretty much all of a piece, seems to me. 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Churchhoney

[kokapetl]

7 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Was just reading this ten-year-old account from a once-homeschooling mother that, to me, shows the desperate desire for safety and control that leads people to stuff like Gothard and to certain styles of homeschooling and childrearing. Except for the massive work ethic and much more respect for education and training in this account, a lot of this is similar to Duggar approaches, I can just feel this mother's fear and rigidity rising off the page. Picked it up because it's a family I've been aware of and it was decimated a few days ago by a double murder and attempted suicide. Safety was not forthcoming no matter how much she tried to engineer it.  And despite being very bent on confining their children, they weren't as confining as the Duggars, allowing at least three of the four kids to go off to college -- the two oldest now live in other states -- and as teens they were allowed to participate in homeschool debate, for example. All the struggle for control ended up being for nought, though.  Second-youngest boy shot his mother and younger brother and tried to kill himself but survived. Depressing.  Not just what happened, but the amount of fear of the world that the mother expresses here, to me.    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:blbGVpi6jqkJ:stockdalefamilyband.com/stockdale-family-manual/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us 

That manual was just sad to read. 

[Mollie]

20 hours ago, JoanArc said:

Jim Bob has never claimed to be worth 3 mil - it's an outside guesstimate at best. Please cite if you have a source, otherwise. '07 was pre show post special. They had a few lucky breaks but hadn't hit it big yet, like the first couple years of the tv show.

This is from an interview in May, 2001, when Jimbo was running for the Senate:  "Asked if he was a millionaire, Duggar succinctly replied: 'Yes.' He declined to give details … 'We are free of debt. I am able to put several hundred thousand dollars into this race, and am willing to do that.'"

You'll have to pay $3 for the article, but you can view it here:  http://www.arkansasonline.com/archivesearch/

(Duggar: Senate bid act of faith State GOP balks at race against Tim Hutchinson Date: May 14, 2001)

Just because he crammed his wife and 14 children into a little house without enough beds, bathrooms or hot water for their needs, doesn't mean he didn't have money.  He had lots of money.  He just didn't care about providing adequately for his kids.

When Jimbo entered the Arkansas House of Representatives in 1999, he sold all of his businesses (including a used car lot and a towing company) and invested the money in real estate.  He paid cash for all of the properties he owned and lived off of the income mostly from commercial properties.

In 1999, he claimed that it cost $5,000 a month to support his family (a value of $7,365 in 2017 dollars) and all of that money was coming from rental income.

He was also pimping the kids out as a gospel singing troupe in 2001.  (Source: CongressDaily. 04/16/2001, p11. 1p.)

For his failed Senate campaign in 2002, he ended up spending $250,000 of his own money because he couldn't muster donations.

The infamous Alice claims "The Discovery Health Channel and the TLC channel wrote them a check for over $200,000 for them to build the house." http://www.ibiblio.org/bascha/blog/2006/03/21/gigantic-family-day-on-tlc/#comment-36114

TLC aired five Duggar shows before the series began: 14 Children and Pregnant Again!, Raising 16 Children, 16 Children and Moving In, On the Road with 16 Children, and Duggars' Big Family Album (when baby #17 was born). These shows aired on September 6, 2004, March 13, 2006, March 15, 2006, June 11, 2006 and September 22, 2007.

So, yes, I stand by my statement that the Duggars were on a roll in 2007.  Why do you think they couldn't afford toilet paper then?  Please cite if you have a source.
 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Mollie

[Westiepeach]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Was just reading this ten-year-old account from a once-homeschooling mother that, to me, shows the desperate desire for safety and control that leads people to stuff like Gothard and to certain styles of homeschooling and childrearing. Except for the massive work ethic and much more respect for education and training in this account, a lot of this is similar to Duggar approaches, I can just feel this mother's fear and rigidity rising off the page. Picked it up because it's a family I've been aware of and it was decimated a few days ago by a double murder and attempted suicide. Safety was not forthcoming no matter how much she tried to engineer it.  And despite being very bent on confining their children, they weren't as confining as the Duggars, allowing at least three of the four kids to go off to college -- the two oldest now live in other states -- and as teens they were allowed to participate in homeschool debate, for example. All the struggle for control ended up being for nought, though.  Second-youngest boy, now age 25, killed his mother and younger brother and tried to kill himself but survived. Depressing.  Not just what happened, but the amount of fear of the world that the mother expresses here, to me.  Obviously there's a kind of personality that's just scared crapless of anything that isn't totally predictable and will go to huge lengths to shut out the unpredictable and new, it seems.

  http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:blbGVpi6jqkJ:stockdalefamilyband.com/stockdale-family-manual/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us 

That just happened a couple hours south of where I live. Big news here. When I read that manual all I could think of were the Duggars. Gah!

[tabloidlover]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Was just reading this ten-year-old account from a once-homeschooling mother that, to me, shows the desperate desire for safety and control that leads people to stuff like Gothard and to certain styles of homeschooling and childrearing. Except for the massive work ethic and much more respect for education and training in this account, a lot of this is similar to Duggar approaches, I can just feel this mother's fear and rigidity rising off the page. Picked it up because it's a family I've been aware of and it was decimated a few days ago by a double murder and attempted suicide. Safety was not forthcoming no matter how much she tried to engineer it.  And despite being very bent on confining their children, they weren't as confining as the Duggars, allowing at least three of the four kids to go off to college -- the two oldest now live in other states -- and as teens they were allowed to participate in homeschool debate, for example. All the struggle for control ended up being for nought, though.  Second-youngest boy, now age 25, killed his mother and younger brother and tried to kill himself but survived. Depressing.  Not just what happened, but the amount of fear of the world that the mother expresses here, to me.  Obviously there's a kind of personality that's just scared crapless of anything that isn't totally predictable and will go to huge lengths to shut out the unpredictable and new, it seems.

  http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:blbGVpi6jqkJ:stockdalefamilyband.com/stockdale-family-manual/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us 

Oh my goodness!  So very tragic and heartbreaking.  She sounded like a loon with all of her rules and she clearly ruled with an iron fist.  Truly hurts my heart for those boys. 

[Nysha]

10 minutes ago, tabloidlover said:

Oh my goodness!  So very tragic and heartbreaking.  She sounded like a loon with all of her rules and she clearly ruled with an iron fist.  Truly hurts my heart for those boys. 

Yep, a loon with a need for control and vindication, since she was also on Wife Swap trying to prove her way was the best way. I am sorry for the deaths. Extreme religion is hard on the mentally ill. 

[Oldernowiser]

Yowza. "Breakfast giblets." "Mustard blueberry shakes." "Liver on toast." And a spoonful of cod liver oil every night.

On the other hand, they were still eating better than the Duggars.

[queenanne]

11 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Yowza. "Breakfast giblets." "Mustard blueberry shakes." "Liver on toast." And a spoonful of cod liver oil every night.

On the other hand, they were still eating better than the Duggars.

I feel, because she didn't punctuate, that the "mustard" covered the dish that came before the "Blueberry (sic) shakes".

Otherwise, I'm surprised she allowed them to jam until 11PM-ish.  Yikes.  "Always" this... "Never" that... Never to eat fast food... I mean, "never"?  Not even while traveling "on the road"?  That's pretty tiresome and rigid, making yourself drag multiple homemade meals around all the time.   

[Churchhoney]

32 minutes ago, queenanne said:

I feel, because she didn't punctuate, that the "mustard" covered the dish that came before the "Blueberry (sic) shakes".

Otherwise, I'm surprised she allowed them to jam until 11PM-ish.  Yikes.  "Always" this... "Never" that... Never to eat fast food... I mean, "never"?  Not even while traveling "on the road"?  That's pretty tiresome and rigid, making yourself drag multiple homemade meals around all the time.   

I suspect they were trying to make a serious run at a large-scale music career at that point. The kids were just old enough -- ranging from 10-11 or so to 19 -- for a real band to get going. They have considered their band a "ministry." So I wonder whether they may even have been hoping to draw some more media attention -- get a show like the Willises eventually got or something. That may not be the case. But I can't see any other reason than publicity to accomplish some goal that would get a woman this brittle and obsessed with rules to go on Wife Swap, which she did in the year or so after she wrote this piece.

I suppose that may just have been to 'minister" about their lifestyle through that one show. But I wonder whether she'd put herself through what had to be an experience she surely hated in a lot of ways just for a one-time-airing ministry program. I also wonder -- although they don't watch tv -- whether they could have been inspired by the Duggars. They have the whole lifestyle down and could have added farming (and accompanying slaughtering and so on) and some apparently pretty accomplished musicianship to the super-wholesomeness, shielded-from-the-world formula.  

[Mya]

2 hours ago, Mollie said:

This is from an interview in May, 2001, when Jimbo was running for the Senate:  "Asked if he was a millionaire, Duggar succinctly replied: 'Yes.' He declined to give details … 'We are free of debt. I am able to put several hundred thousand dollars into this race, and am willing to do that.'"

You'll have to pay $3 for the article, but you can view it here:  http://www.arkansasonline.com/archivesearch/

(Duggar: Senate bid act of faith State GOP balks at race against Tim Hutchinson Date: May 14, 2001)

Just because he crammed his wife and 14 children into a little house without enough beds, bathrooms or hot water for their needs, doesn't mean he didn't have money.  He had lots of money.  He just didn't care about providing adequately for his kids.

When Jimbo entered the Arkansas House of Representatives in 1999, he sold all of his businesses (including a used car lot and a towing company) and invested the money in real estate.  He paid cash for all of the properties he owned and lived off of the income mostly from commercial properties.

In 1999, he claimed that it cost $5,000 a month to support his family (a value of $7,365 in 2017 dollars) and all of that money was coming from rental income.

He was also pimping the kids out as a gospel singing troupe in 2001.  (Source: CongressDaily. 04/16/2001, p11. 1p.)

For his failed Senate campaign in 2002, he ended up spending $250,000 of his own money because he couldn't muster donations.

The infamous Alice claims "The Discovery Health Channel and the TLC channel wrote them a check for over $200,000 for them to build the house." http://www.ibiblio.org/bascha/blog/2006/03/21/gigantic-family-day-on-tlc/#comment-36114

TLC aired five Duggar shows before the series began: 14 Children and Pregnant Again!, Raising 16 Children, 16 Children and Moving In, On the Road with 16 Children, and Duggars' Big Family Album (when baby #17 was born). These shows aired on September 6, 2004, March 13, 2006, March 15, 2006, June 11, 2006 and September 22, 2007.

So, yes, I stand by my statement that the Duggars were on a roll in 2007.  Why do you think they couldn't afford toilet paper then?  Please cite if you have a source.
 

Has Alice ever been heard from again.  Everything she said turned out to be true wow.

[kokapetl]

2 hours ago, Mollie said:

This is from an interview in May, 2001, when Jimbo was running for the Senate:  "Asked if he was a millionaire, Duggar succinctly replied: 'Yes.' He declined to give details … 'We are free of debt. I am able to put several hundred thousand dollars into this race, and am willing to do that.'"

You'll have to pay $3 for the article, but you can view it here:  http://www.arkansasonline.com/archivesearch/

(Duggar: Senate bid act of faith State GOP balks at race against Tim Hutchinson Date: May 14, 2001)

Just because he crammed his wife and 14 children into a little house without enough beds, bathrooms or hot water for their needs, doesn't mean he didn't have money.  He had lots of money.  He just didn't care about providing adequately for his kids.

When Jimbo entered the Arkansas House of Representatives in 1999, he sold all of his businesses (including a used car lot and a towing company) and invested the money in real estate.  He paid cash for all of the properties he owned and lived off of the income mostly from commercial properties.

In 1999, he claimed that it cost $5,000 a month to support his family (a value of $7,365 in 2017 dollars) and all of that money was coming from rental income.

He was also pimping the kids out as a gospel singing troupe in 2001.  (Source: CongressDaily. 04/16/2001, p11. 1p.)

For his failed Senate campaign in 2002, he ended up spending $250,000 of his own money because he couldn't muster donations.

The infamous Alice claims "The Discovery Health Channel and the TLC channel wrote them a check for over $200,000 for them to build the house." http://www.ibiblio.org/bascha/blog/2006/03/21/gigantic-family-day-on-tlc/#comment-36114

TLC aired five Duggar shows before the series began: 14 Children and Pregnant Again!, Raising 16 Children, 16 Children and Moving In, On the Road with 16 Children, and Duggars' Big Family Album (when baby #17 was born). These shows aired on September 6, 2004, March 13, 2006, March 15, 2006, June 11, 2006 and September 22, 2007.

So, yes, I stand by my statement that the Duggars were on a roll in 2007.  Why do you think they couldn't afford toilet paper then?  Please cite if you have a source.
 

If someone sold all their assets, and then subsequently spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, I can see how they might have been worth one million dollars. I think Jimbob would have thrown more at his campaign if he had it. Three million dollars is unlikely. Jimbob's real estate assets are also nearly all properties that were foreclosed on when the real estate bubble collapsed in 2008. 

[Mollie]

1 hour ago, Kokapetl said:

If someone sold all their assets, and then subsequently spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, I can see how they might have been worth one million dollars. I think Jimbob would have thrown more at his campaign if he had it. Three million dollars is unlikely. Jimbob's real estate assets are also nearly all properties that were foreclosed on when the real estate bubble collapsed in 2008. 

He didn't sell all of his assets; he sold businesses like the used car business and the towing company.  He didn't sell his properties.  He owned a lot of properties prior to 2008 and he owned them without mortgages.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Mollie

[floridamom]

I remember reading that "Alice" post myself. It's true that TLC and Discovery Network wrote that check to Jim Bob and Michelle to finish their house. What did they do with that money? Did they pay those 'friend-helper-contractors, furniture companies and interior designers' for their services with that check or did they get to keep it and TLC paid the tradesmen when they appeared on the show. Still, this family bends the truth about almost everything. So, they didn't build the TTH themselves after all....I also remember that post saying how when the professionals were brought in, most of the 'work' the children did on that house had to be ripped out due to shoddiness and/or not up to code. It goes to show you, children should NOT be doing construction work.

I still ask the same question and don't seem to get a real answer....either this family was destitute in those 'sardine can house days' and accepted donations of food; or they were doing just fine financially like the leghumpers insist. Can't be both ways, can it?

[jcbrown]

10 hours ago, Nysha said:

Extreme religion is hard on the mentally ill. 

And attractive to some of the mentally ill, methinks (MEchelle). Cause and effect are a bit hard to untangle.

[GeeGolly]

I think Michelle did acknowledge in a round about way that having the show allowed them to finish the house sooner rather than later. Something like they had "hoped to move in before Jackson was born and two babies later, with the help of all these wonderful people they were able to move in".

She also mentions in a video tour that some things in the house were added by the show's producers.

And they have pictures or a video thanking some contractor Fundy 'friend' who took over and helped get the job done.